1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Friday. Today we 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 1: are going to talk about Operation paper Clip, which is 5 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: also known as Project paper Clip, and this was the 6 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: US effort to bring German scientists to the United States 7 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: after World War Two. And to be clear, the US 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: was definitely not the only Allied nation doing this, as examples, 9 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: the UK and France and the Soviet Union all had 10 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: their own programs to try to exploit German scientific and 11 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: engineering knowledge after the war. But in most cases those 12 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: other programs involved specialists and researchers who were either working 13 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: in occupied Germany or they were sent back to Germany 14 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: after a few years of provised work in another country. 15 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: But for the United States program, a lot of the 16 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: people who were part of it ultimately became permanent residents 17 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: or citizens of the US, and this included people who 18 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: were ardent Nazis or who had committed war crimes. A 19 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: lot of the time. The rockets scientists are the ones 20 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: who get the most discussion around this program today. So 21 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: people like Verner von Brown, who developed ballistic missiles for 22 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: the U. S. Army before joining the space program at NASA. 23 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: But paper Clippers really came from a wide range of 24 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: scientific and engineering specialties, including flight, medicine and chemical warfare 25 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 1: and aeronautics. They worked in military and in civilian roles. 26 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: It was like every layer of American industry and the 27 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: military industrial complex. When I started on this episode, my 28 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: intent was that today we were going to talk about 29 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: the context for this program and its precursor, which was 30 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: called Operation Overcast, and then the program itself and some 31 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: of the most prominent and notorious people who were part 32 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: of it. That turned out to be too much for 33 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: one episode, which people listening to me list all those 34 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:21,679 Speaker 1: things off may not be that surprised by. So this 35 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: episode is going to whack through the arc of this 36 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: program's creation and its existence, and we'll have more about 37 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: some of the specific scientists and engineers and other specialties 38 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: in another episode sometime soon, possibly the next episode, but 39 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: since it's not written yet, I don't want to promise anything. 40 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: This is one of those things that became clear at 41 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: like three o'clock yesterday afternoon that this could not all 42 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: be one episode. So that means that while there will 43 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,679 Speaker 1: be some references to some Nazi atrocities during World War 44 00:02:55,720 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: Two and the general era of thees and forties. There's 45 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: just that there's not as much detail about the specifics 46 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: in this particular episode. It is something that will be 47 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: discussed more in a future episode about the researchers themselves, 48 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: so to establish a bit of background on this subject. 49 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 1: In June of nineteen forty two, Adolf Hitler issued the 50 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: Decree of the Feur on the Reich Research Council. It read, 51 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: in part, quote, the necessity to expand all available forces 52 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: to highest efficiency in the interest of the state requires 53 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 1: not only in peace time, but also, and especially in wartime, 54 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: the concentrated effort of scientific research and its channelization toward 55 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: the goal to be aspired. It then went on to say, 56 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: leading men of science above all are to make research 57 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: fruitful for warfare by working together in their special fields. 58 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: In nineteen forty four he issued another decree, and this 59 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: one called for the development of weapons and equipment that 60 00:03:54,520 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: had quote revolutionary new characteristics. These would put Germany ahead 61 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: of its enemies. Nazi propaganda framed these new weapons and 62 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: equipment as Vunderwaffe or wonder weapons. Also in nineteen four, 63 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: Germany introduced the rocket power measer Schmidt Emmy one sixty three, 64 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: which was the world's first rocket powered fighter, the Messer 65 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,359 Speaker 1: Schmidt Emmy two sixty two, which was the world's first 66 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: operational jet fighter, the V one flying Bomb, which was 67 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,720 Speaker 1: the world's first cruise missile, and the V two rocket, 68 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: which was the world's first ballistic missile. So a lot 69 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 1: of wartime first there, and it has been widely repeated 70 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: that if these technologies had been introduced just a few 71 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: months earlier in the war, the Access Powers might well 72 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 1: have won, and there's some debate over whether that's really true, 73 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 1: but Allied military officials definitely saw all of this and 74 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: any other innovations that Germany might have had in the 75 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,359 Speaker 1: works as a huge threat. There were concerned earned that 76 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: Germany's ultimate goal for the V two rocket was for 77 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 1: it to carry a nuclear payload, and concerns that it 78 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 1: was sharing its secrets and technologies with Japan, So the 79 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: Allied Powers made it a priority to try to capture 80 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: as much German research and technology as possible, both to 81 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 1: replicate it for themselves and to try to develop countermeasures, 82 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 1: especially after the D Day invasions started on June, teams 83 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: really searched for German research facilities and weapons factories that 84 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 1: copied blueprints and technical materials. They questioned scientists and confiscated 85 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: weapons and technology. This included disassembling and removing big pieces 86 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 1: of equipment like V two rockets and wind tunnels and aircraft. 87 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: This process really accelerated in the last months of the war. 88 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 1: The UK and the US formed the Combined Intelligence Objective 89 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 1: Subcommittee to coordinate a huge sweep for German military secrets 90 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: and equipment. This really s scalated after Hitler issued the 91 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: Destructive Measures on Rke Territory Decree also known as the 92 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: Nero Decree, that happened on March nineteenth nine, and this 93 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: decree called for the destruction of anything that could be 94 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:17,359 Speaker 1: used by enemies of Germany. British and American units became 95 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:21,679 Speaker 1: increasingly competitive as they tried to capture resources before Germany 96 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: could destroy them and before Soviet forces who had similar 97 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: objectives could move into an area. In some cases it 98 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: was literally an area that the Soviets were supposed to 99 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: be occupying, but British or American forces are both together 100 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 1: would be like, we we're got to get as much 101 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: of the stuff ourselves as possible before they get here. 102 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: As all of this was happening, military officials also started 103 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 1: to shift their focus a little bit, because no matter 104 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: how many blueprints or technical manuals or formulas or actual 105 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: pieces of technology they managed to secure, and no matter 106 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: how many specialists they interviewed, that still wouldn't be the 107 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: same of having ongoing access to the minds behind all 108 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: of this stuff. So the Combined Intelligence Objectives Subcommittee started 109 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: developing lists of people to target and bring in for 110 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: more long term work. Initially, there was a blacklist of 111 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: targets of military value and a gray list of targets 112 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: of quote vital postwar interest, but those people were not 113 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: of immediate military value. Often, though, these lists are kind 114 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: of lumped together as just the black list. One source 115 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: for the names on these lists was a document prepared 116 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: by senior Gestapo officer of Werner Ozenberg, who supervised the 117 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: planning office of the Reich Research Council. He had compiled 118 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: a list of about fifteen thousand names, part of which 119 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: was discovered in an unflushed toilet in March of nine. 120 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: When Osenburg himself was captured, he surrendered the entire list 121 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,679 Speaker 1: along with documents that detailed the qualifications of the people 122 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: on that list and other documents related to the German 123 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: war or effort. The U. S. Army established the Field 124 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: Information Agency Technical or FIAT to help it exploit German 125 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: knowledge and resources, including finding and capturing people from this list, 126 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: and the term exploit comes up over and over in 127 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: descriptions of this whole phase of the project. Allied militaries 128 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: and governments were increasingly interpreting all of this as a 129 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: form of German reparations for the war, and German scientists, engineers, technicians, 130 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: and researchers were all resources to exploit as part of 131 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: those reparations. Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force had established internment 132 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: camps for scientists and engineers in Germany and informally German 133 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: occupied territory. Some of these camps housed hundreds of people, 134 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: and beyond interrogating them about their work and getting to 135 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 1: interpret and explain technical documents, at first, officials weren't quite 136 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: sure what to do with them. Simply letting people go 137 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 1: after they'd been interrogated wasn't really an option. The people 138 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: who had developed the aircraft, bombs, and chemical and biological 139 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: weapons for the Third Reich still presented a threat. And 140 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: then on top of that, the Potsdam Agreement, which was 141 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,679 Speaker 1: signed in August of n called for the quote complete 142 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: disarmament and demilitarization of Germany and the elimination or control 143 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: of all German industry that could be used for military production. 144 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: And that meant that for a lot of these specialists, 145 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: the industries that they had been working in, as well 146 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: as other related industries where they might have been able 147 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: to find jobs, those just would not exist anymore. So 148 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: it wasn't like they could interrogate someone, release them, keep 149 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: tabs on them to make sure they were, you know, 150 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: not doing anything dangerous while they went to some job 151 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 1: they had gotten because those industries they would have worked 152 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: in no longer were to exist. Although the US and 153 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: the UK were at eyes and the Combined Intelligence Subjective 154 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: Subcommittee had been established as a joint effort between the 155 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: two nations, over time they became increasingly competitive. For example, 156 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: on April, Colonel Donald L. Putt was led to the 157 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,839 Speaker 1: Herman Geering Aeronautical Research Center at Vulcan Road, which had 158 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: been camouflaged under trees. This secret facility was in an 159 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: area that was supposed to be under British control, so 160 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: American forces worked as quickly as possible to secure as 161 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: much as they could before the British arrived. This kind 162 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: of stuff led to various toe stepping, basically from a 163 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: military perspective, and then the United States having to like 164 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 1: work with Britains to say, Okay, we took all these 165 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: V two rockets that you were supposed to get access to, 166 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: so we will work with you to figure out how 167 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: they work and to launch sums you can see how 168 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: they work. Some of this was specifically focused on trying 169 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: to secure information and weapons that could be used full 170 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: in the War in the Pacific, which was still ongoing. 171 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: On April twenty second, nineteen forty five, the US Army 172 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: Air Forces Intelligence Service launched Operation Lusty, which stood for 173 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: Luftwaffa's Secret Technology, and that was to secure technical and 174 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: scientific intelligence that could be used in the war against Japan. 175 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: The US started copying German munitions that had been used 176 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: against Britain during the Blitz. By the time Germany surrendered 177 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 1: on May eighth of nineteen forty five, the US had 178 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: captured most of Germany's most respected aircraft engineers. Two days later, 179 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: Allied forces intercepted the German submarine U eight five eight, 180 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: which surrendered in Delaware on May fourteenth. It was carrying 181 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: civilian engineers to Japan, along with advanced weaponry and supplies, 182 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: including an entire disassembled aircraft. Among its cargo were twelve 183 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: hundred pounds of uranium ox side. This was most likely 184 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: meant to be used for aircraft fuel, but it raised 185 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: fears of the possibility of nuclear weapons development. So this 186 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: made the ongoing exploitation of German researchers more urgent. An 187 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 1: officials started to question whether some of this work might 188 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: be done more effectively in the United States. Although it 189 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: was generally agreed that exploiting German researchers in Germany was 190 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: vital and was generally ethical, the idea of bringing people 191 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 1: into the US was a lot more controversial. On Under 192 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: Secretary of War Robert Patterson wrote a letter to Admiral 193 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: William D. Lahy which read, in part quote, I strongly 194 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,839 Speaker 1: favored doing everything possible to utilize fully in the prosecution 195 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: of the war against Japan all information that can be 196 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: obtained from Germany or any other source. These men are enemies, 197 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: and it must be assumed they are capable of sabotaging 198 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: our war effort. Bringing them to this country raises delicate questions, 199 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: including the strong resentment of the American public, who might 200 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: misunderstand the purpose of bringing them here and the treatment 201 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:08,959 Speaker 1: accorded them, But the idea of military necessity ultimately went 202 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: out over these and other concerns. After this letter, the 203 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: War Department General Staff held a meeting at the Pentagon 204 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: to develop a plan to give some German researchers, specifically 205 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: ones who were not Nazis or war criminals, temporary contracts 206 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: to work in the United States under protective military custody. 207 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 1: We will talk more about that after a sponsor break. 208 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: The first project to bring German scientists to the US 209 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: to work under a temporary contract was called Project Overcast, 210 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: and it was launched on July. Under this program, Germans 211 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,439 Speaker 1: specialists and researchers would be brought to the US, where 212 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 1: they would temporarily work under military supervision before eventually returning 213 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: to Germany. Each person assigned a contract was supposed to 214 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: undergo a background check to confirm that they were not 215 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: an ardent Nazi. Like the word exploit, That phrase ardent 216 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: Nazi is a term that comes up a lot in 217 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: documents about Operation paper Clip and its related programs. Officials 218 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: recognized that under Adolf Hitler, Germany had been a single 219 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: party dictatorship, and that at least some involvement with Nazism 220 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: was essentially mandatory for non Jewish Germans. The researchers, who 221 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: the U saw is the most skilled and important, were 222 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: of course seen the same way by the Nazis, so 223 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: in many cases they had been targeted for leadership roles 224 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: and rewarded with honors and awards that were bestowed by 225 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: the party. Some people who joined the party also did 226 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: so out of a sense of self preservation or even opportunism. 227 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: So with all this in mind, the general conclusion among 228 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: American military authorities was that it was just not feasible 229 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: to restrict anyone who had any connection at all to 230 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: the Nazi Party. That would leave them with no researchers 231 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: to exploit. Instead, the focus was on banning ardent Nazis, 232 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: and ardent Nazis were described as people who had joined 233 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: the Nazi Party before Hitler declared himself, bureer people who 234 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: were leaders in the party or in one of its 235 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: affiliated organizations like the s S or the essay people 236 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: who had been convicted in a post war denazification court, 237 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: or people who had been accused or convicted of war crimes. 238 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: This process involved interviews, examining people's records, and confirming that 239 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: they were not on the Central Registry of War Criminals 240 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: and Security Suspects that's also known as the crow Cast List. 241 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: This list was described as quote an unwieldy monster archive. 242 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: It was often vague, it was full of undocumented allegations. 243 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: There's a lot of hearsay, But in terms of the 244 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: people conducting these background checks, it became a useful check 245 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: off to say this person was not a suspected war criminal. 246 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: This program, Operation Overcast, grew really quickly. It expanded to 247 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: include a huge assortment of government and military programs and 248 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: their associated acronyms. There were a lot of Every book 249 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: that I read on this had just a list of 250 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: acronyms at the beginning and what they all stood for. 251 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: The Joint Intelligence Objective Agency that is abbreviated j I 252 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: o A and usually said JOAH was created as part 253 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during this expansion, and 254 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: this agency directed this whole operation and brought about sixteen 255 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: hundred German and Austrian scientists, engineers, and researchers to the 256 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: US between nine and nineteen seventy. The Office of Strategic 257 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: Services and the Joint Intelligence Committee were involved in this 258 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: as well. Japan formally surrendered on September two, but even 259 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: though that ended the war, the effort to bring German 260 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: scientists to the US continued. By January of nineteen forty six, 261 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: one hundred sixty German specialists had been brought to the 262 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: United States. One hundred fifteen of them were rocket specialists, 263 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: including Werner von Braun, and the program got bigger and 264 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 1: broader from their As a relations between the US and 265 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: the USSR devolved into the Cold War, the idea of 266 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: keeping the other side from getting access to German researchers 267 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: and technology became more and more important to both nations. 268 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: The United States started to see an eventual armed conflict 269 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: with the Soviet Union as inevitable advances in Soviet nuclear 270 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,679 Speaker 1: research led to fears that the Soviets had been getting 271 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: aid from German scientists on this, although it later turned 272 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: out that they were really getting stolen American nuclear secrets. 273 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: On January third of nineteen forty six, the merc report 274 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:58,120 Speaker 1: detailing biological warfare research in Japan became public and that 275 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 1: led for calls for more research into biological agents and 276 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: their countermeasures in the United States, and that was yet 277 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: another specialty of these German researchers. In March of ninety six, 278 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 1: Project Overcast expanded. It shifted from a limited number of 279 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 1: people with temporary contracts working under military supervision to between 280 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: eight hundred and a thousand specialists who would be offered 281 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: long term residency in the US and even citizenship. Since 282 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: this was no longer intended as a temporary assignment, the 283 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 1: researchers families would be permitted to enter the US permanently 284 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 1: as well. This was the whole process where Germany was 285 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: being denocified, like people with Nazi ties were being pulled 286 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: out of leadership positions, and all of these different industries 287 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: and all of these different contexts, some of the same 288 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: people were being brought to the United States and offered 289 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: US citizenship. So by this point, some of the scientists 290 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: families who were being housed at a camp in Germany 291 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: had started calling that camp Camp Overcast, and that prompted 292 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 1: this project's name chained to Operation paper Clip or Project 293 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 1: paper Clip, depending on the source that you're looking at. 294 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 1: That name came from the paper clips that were used 295 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: to discreetly flag the files of candidates whose backgrounds were 296 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: potentially too damning for them to be allowed into the 297 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 1: United States. In August, Secretary of State Dean Atchison sent 298 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: a top secret memo to President Harry Truman requesting his 299 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: approval of the interim exploitation of German and Austrian specialists 300 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: under Project paper Clip. The document Truman approved included the 301 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: text of State War Navy Coordinating Committee Document to five 302 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: seven Slash twenty two, which outlined a revised version for 303 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 1: the expanded paper Clip program that had been launched in March. 304 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: This read, in part quote, persons proposed to be brought 305 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 1: to the US here under shall be screened by the 306 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: Commanding General U. S. F Et on the basis of 307 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: available rec kords. No person found by the Commanding General U. S. 308 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 1: F Et to have been a member of the Nazi 309 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 1: Party and more than a nominal participant in its activities, 310 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: or an active supporter of Nazism or militarism, shall be 311 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: brought to the US here under. However, neither position nor 312 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: honors awarded a specialist under the Nazi regime solely on 313 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: account of his scientific or technical ability, will in themselves 314 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,199 Speaker 1: be considered sufficient to disqualify a specialist for evacuation to 315 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: the US. Here under where there is doubt as to 316 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: the qualification of a specialist under the preceding sentence, the 317 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: Commanding General U s F E. T. May transport the 318 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: specialist to the US, where further interrogation and screening shall 319 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 1: be conducted immediately in order to determine such qualification. Before 320 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: October of nineteen, the State Department had been pre approving 321 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: Project paper Clip candidates before they left Europe, but after 322 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: that point the process shift did so that the Immigration 323 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: and Naturalization Service Commissioner handled them in the US. This 324 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: dropped the State Department preclearance requirement, which was required by 325 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:14,439 Speaker 1: law in occupied Germany. The Office of Military Government US 326 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: kept security dossier's on all of the candidates, but also 327 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: withheld the most damaging information on many high profile candidates. 328 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: Documents that were declassified in the nineteen seventies and afterward 329 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: revealed that reports on individual candidates were revised to basically 330 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 1: whitewash their backgrounds. Yes, some of these revisions were really 331 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: dramatic that sort of went from, you know, draft one, 332 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,439 Speaker 1: the first thing in somebody's fil being like, this person 333 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: is a dangerous Nazi, and then later on being like, 334 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: as this person had no more than a nominal involvement 335 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: in the Nazi Party. So even though this whole project 336 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 1: had started with a lot of assurances that it absolutely 337 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: would not involve ardent Nazis, in the end, Paper Clippers 338 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: included people who had worked directly without off Hitler, Heinrich 339 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: Himler and Herman Gurring. Some had been officers in the 340 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: Nazi Party or in the s S or the Essay. 341 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: Some stood trial at Nuremberg or faced other war crimes trials. 342 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,120 Speaker 1: In some cases, people's backgrounds were so egregious that they 343 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: were giving contracts to work for the U. S Military, 344 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 1: but they did that work while still living in Germany. 345 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: But in other cases, people with pretty similar backgrounds still 346 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: made their way to the US. Of course, this whole 347 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: program was classified, but just as this shift was happening 348 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: from temporary contracts to American citizenship, the American public was 349 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: becoming more aware of what was going on. This started 350 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 1: thanks to news reports that originated from Russian language newspapers 351 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: being printed in Germany. Soon publications like The New York 352 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: Times and Newsweek were reporting on German researchers, some of 353 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: them Nazis, being brought to the US and offered citizenship. 354 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 1: The War Department tried to respond to all this with 355 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: its own favorable propaganda about the program. It's the whole 356 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: idea of like nowhere, only bringing the good Germans here, 357 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:16,360 Speaker 1: like interviews with handpicked scientists who were doing relatively neutral 358 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: and wholesome seeming work. Of course, this all had to 359 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,959 Speaker 1: totally sidestep the fact that many paper clippers had been Nazis, 360 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,120 Speaker 1: and even if they had not been ardent, their work 361 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: during the war had still contributed to, or at the 362 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: absolute very least, been complicit in the German war effort. 363 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 1: This work had been involved in the deaths of Allied 364 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: personnel and the widespread atrocities of the Holocaust. There had 365 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: been critics of this program within the government in the 366 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: military from the beginning. For example, Samuel Klaus was an 367 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 1: attorney with the State Department and had been chosen to 368 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: represent the State Department with Joah. He had argued strongly 369 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: against the program since he first became involved, pointing out 370 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: out that the United States was giving Nazis the chance 371 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: for American citizenship while denying that chance to refugees and 372 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: displaced persons who had been persecuted and harmed by the 373 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:14,360 Speaker 1: Nazi regime. Thanks in part to Claus's role, the relationship 374 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: between the State Department and the military became incredibly adversarial 375 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: during this program, and he wound up being targeted during 376 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 1: the Red Scare. Yeah. He uh. He made a lot 377 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: of incredibly strident criticisms of all of this. He was 378 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 1: eventually moved off the project. Aside from his well argued 379 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: criticisms of all of this, he apparently was also kind 380 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 1: of a tricky person to work with and rubbed a 381 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: lot of people the wrong way in this and many 382 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: other contexts, So he seems like kind of a tangle um. 383 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 1: After these reports, though, there was a lot of vocal 384 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 1: criticism of this program from the public as well. On 385 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: December six, the Counsel Against Intolerance in America sent a 386 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,959 Speaker 1: telegram to President Truman which read quote as Americans citizen 387 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: permit us to express our profound concern over reports that 388 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: Nazi scientists have not only been brought to this country 389 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,679 Speaker 1: by the United States Army for research projects, but that 390 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 1: their families are to follow them, and that they may 391 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: be permitted to remain here permanently. We hold these individuals 392 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 1: to be potentially dangerous carriers of racial and religious hatred. 393 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: Their former eminence as Nazi Party members and supporters raises 394 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: the issue of their fitness to become American citizens or 395 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: hold key positions in American industrial, scientific, and educational institutions. 396 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: If it is deemed imperative to utilize these individuals in 397 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 1: this country, we earnestly petition you to make sure they 398 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: will not be granted permanent residents or citizenship, and the 399 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: United States with the opportunity which that would afford of 400 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: inculcating these anti democratic doctrines which seek to undermine and 401 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 1: destroy our national unity. That telegram was signed by about 402 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: forty people, including Albert Einstein, A Philip Randolph, and Rabbi B. 403 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: Benedict Glazer. Eleanor Roosevelt and Albert Einstein worked together to 404 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: vocally opposed the program. Other organizations that spoke out against 405 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 1: it included the n double a c P, The Society 406 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 1: for the Prevention of World War Three, and the Federation 407 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: of American Scientists, whose statement described the program as quote 408 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: an affront to the people of all countries who so 409 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: recently fought beside us, to the refugees whose lives were 410 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: shattered by Nazism, to our unfortunate scientific colleagues of former 411 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,360 Speaker 1: occupied lands, and to all of those others who suffered 412 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: under the yoke these men helped to forge from their 413 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: Operation paper Clip continued to make some pretty astounding headlines 414 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,360 Speaker 1: that were honestly pretty embarrassing to the authorities who were 415 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: behind it. We'll talk about some of these things more 416 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: in this upcoming, not yet written episode of the show. 417 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 1: On March nine seven, Drew Pearson wrote an article for 418 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: The New York Times that alleged that Carl Crouch had 419 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 1: been offered a paper Clip contract while incarcerated at Nuremberg, 420 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: where he was awaiting a trial for war crimes. Crouch 421 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: was ultimately convicted of enslavement and crimes against humanity. Project 422 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: paper Clip wrapped up in September of ninety but German 423 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: scientists were still brought into the US after that point. 424 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: We're going to talk more about that after a sponsor break. 425 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: Project paper Clip, also known as Operation paper Clip, formally 426 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,120 Speaker 1: ran from March of ninety six to September of ninety, 427 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 1: building on its precursor, Operation Overcast, as we talked about earlier, 428 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: but the same basic process continued under various different names 429 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: and with various adjustments for much longer. The recruitment of 430 00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: German scientists actually accelerated during the Berlin Blockade, which is 431 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 1: when the Soviet Union blocked access to parts of Berlin 432 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty eight and nineteen forty nine. The idea 433 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: was once again to keep the Soviets from getting access 434 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 1: to more German knowledge and technology, with the CIA and 435 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: JOAH basically competing with each other in their efforts to 436 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: find and recruit more German specialists. Things escalated once again 437 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: during the Korean War under a project that was known 438 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: alternately as Accelerated paper Clip and Project sixty three. This 439 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: program involved quote evacuating high profile scientists from Germany, and 440 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: the focus shifted away from establishing that they were not 441 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: Nazis to establishing that they were not communists. Recruits during 442 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: this particular period included Walter Schreiber, who had been the 443 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: surgeon General under the Third Reich, and he was hired 444 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: to work at the U. S. Air Force School of 445 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: Aviation Medicine. His time in the US didn't last long, though, 446 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: and it was of more information about this program coming 447 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: to public light. In nineteen fifty one, former war crimes 448 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: investigator Leopold Alexander noticed a brief mention of his hiring 449 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: in a medical journal. Alexander wrote to the Massachusetts Medical 450 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: Society and to the Boston Globe denouncing this hiring. When 451 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: the Globe brand its story, it included a statement from Schreiber, 452 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: who said that he had been the victim of Russian disinformation. 453 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: In the face of increasing and increasingly public outrage against 454 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: Schreiber's work in the US, plans started to form to 455 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: return him to Europe, but intelligence experts were concerned that 456 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: he might be a security risk. He had previously been 457 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: captured by Russia and had supposedly escaped, but a lot 458 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: of this was mysterious, a little bit fishy, and there 459 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: were concerns that he might very well start informing to 460 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: the Russians. At the same time, American officials were concerned 461 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: that he also presented a security risk if he remained 462 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: in the United States, since he had extensive knowledge of 463 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: all the other paper clippers who had been high ranking 464 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: and ardent Nazis, basically, they were afraid he would blow 465 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: their cover. Eventually, the US paid for his passage to Argentina, 466 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: where he had family and which had already become home 467 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: to a community of high profile Nazi officials. He was 468 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: also given an undisclosed allowance. In the nineteen fifties, other 469 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: Allied nations that had been working with German researchers within 470 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: their own borders generally started returning those researchers to Germany, 471 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: but in the US most were on the path to 472 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: becoming citizens. In fact, nine of the Germans who were 473 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: brought to the US between nineteen forty five and nineteen 474 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: fifty two ultimately became US citizens. And even though the 475 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: details of the program were still classified, it had really 476 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: become something of an open secret. I mean, the the 477 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: War Department had had this whole propaganda campaign about these 478 00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: being the good Germans. Only when the Soviet Union launched 479 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: the satellites spt NICK in nineteen fifty seven, Bob Hope 480 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: joked that it meant that quote their Germans were better 481 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: than our Germans. Bob Hope is just one of the 482 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: people that this quote has been attributed to. Sometimes it's 483 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: their German rocket scientists were better than our German rocket scientists. 484 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: People knew it was obvious. In nineteen fifty nine, Lieutenant 485 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: Colonel Henry Whalen became deputy director of JOAH, which was 486 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: still overseeing this work. He was also spying for Russia, 487 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: something that went undetected until nineteen sixty three, when the 488 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: FBI investigated. It became clear that he had handed over 489 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: or destroyed a lot of files related to Project paper Clip, 490 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: so at least some of the details about all of 491 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: this may never be known. Whalen pleaded guilty to charges 492 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: of conspiring with Soviet agents, but the Justice Department dropped 493 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: the charge of espionage. By the time Whalen's espionage was uncovered, 494 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 1: JOAH had actually been disbanded. That happened in nineteen sixty two, 495 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: and a few years after that people started combing through 496 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: the details of what had happened during and after the war. 497 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: The first book on Operation paper Clip to come out 498 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: of this work was Clarence Lasbie's Project paper Clip German 499 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: Scientists in the Cold War, which was published in nineteen 500 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: seventy one. At that point, though most of the documents 501 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: related to the program were still classified, and Lasbie's general 502 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: conclusion was that authorities had screened everyone, but that a 503 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: few ardent Nazis had unfortunately managed to evade detection. Criticism 504 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: of the paper clip program and its successors had been 505 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: ongoing through all these years, but public interest reached another 506 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: peak in nineteen seventy eight after NBC aired a mini 507 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: series on the Holocaust. In night, Eli Rosenbaum, who was 508 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: a student at Harvard Law, was browsing through a bookstore. 509 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: He picked up both Dora, the Nazi concentration camp where 510 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: modern space technology was born in and prisoners died by 511 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: Jean Michel, who was imprisoned at the camp, and The 512 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: Rocket Team, which traced the history of the V two rocket, 513 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: and in reading these books he connected the V twos 514 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: development with the use of slave labor from the concentration camp. 515 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: So when Rosenbaum finished his law degree, he got a 516 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: job at the Department of Justice in the Office of 517 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: Special Investigations. The o s I had been established in 518 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine to investigate and prosecute Nazi war criminals 519 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: who were living in the US. Rosenbaum convinced the head 520 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: of the o s I to open an investigation into 521 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: paper clipper, Arthur Rudolph, who designed the Saturn five rocket 522 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: and had been a big part of the V two 523 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: development team. In addition to coordinating the use of enslaved 524 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: labor at the German development facility known as Middle Work, 525 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 1: he had known about and been complicit in, or possibly 526 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: been actively involved in atrocities that were committed there. He 527 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: maintained that he was innocent of these accusations. Rather the 528 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: stand trial, he renounced his US citizenship in nineteen eighty 529 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: four and returned to Europe after thirty eight years in 530 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: the US. After this happened, investigative journalists started trying to 531 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 1: get more and more information about Operation paper Clip, including 532 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 1: through the Freedom of Information Act, which had been signed 533 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 1: into law in nineteen sixty seven. In nineteen eighty five, 534 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: journalists Linda Hunt broke a story by publishing an article 535 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: titled US cover Up of Nazi Scientists in the Bulletin 536 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 1: of the Atomic Scientists. This article read in part quote, 537 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: formerly classified documents revealed detales of the U. S military's 538 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: employment of alleged Nazi war criminals in highly sensitive defense projects. 539 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,839 Speaker 1: They show that government officials concealed information about many specialists 540 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: in order to secure their legal U S immigration status. 541 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: The cover up seems to have stemmed from a belief 542 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,800 Speaker 1: that US national security would be best served by keeping 543 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 1: these Nazi special lists away from the Soviet Union, but 544 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,439 Speaker 1: it was a direct contravention of the presidential directive which 545 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: formally set up Project paper Clip. Hunt published a book 546 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: based on this and other research in Journalist Tom Bauer 547 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 1: had done the same in seven. Both Hunt and Bauer 548 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:23,720 Speaker 1: framed Project paper Clip as a conspiracy. In the US 549 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 1: passed the Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act, which mandated the 550 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: declassification of roughly eight point five million pages of records 551 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 1: related to all this. This mass declassification led to the 552 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: publication of U S Intelligence and the Nazis in two 553 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: thousand and four. A key sentence from its introduction is 554 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: quote Granted, some intelligence activities involve a degree of secret 555 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 1: and messiness which strained conventional moral standards, but there was 556 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: no compelling reasons to begin the post war era with 557 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: the assistance of some of those associated with the worst 558 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:05,359 Speaker 1: crimes of the war. Between its establishment in and its 559 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 1: merge with the Human Rights and Special Prosecution Section in 560 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 1: the Office of Special Investigations, work led to at least 561 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: one hundred Nazi war criminals being stripped of their US 562 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 1: citizenship or removed from the United States. In two thousand six, 563 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 1: O s I legal historian Judith Fagan wrote a six 564 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 1: hundred page report called Striving for Accountability in the Aftermath 565 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 1: of the Holocaust, which detailed both the O. S i 566 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: s efforts to investigate Nazi war criminals and the U 567 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: S efforts to shelter them. After the Department of Justice 568 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: released an incredibly heavily redacted version in response to a 569 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: Freedom of Information Act request, former officials leaked the entire, 570 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: unredacted thing to The New York Times. Yeah. I read 571 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 1: an article that described this as an incredible cell phone 572 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,920 Speaker 1: because they had they had released something that was so 573 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,839 Speaker 1: incredibly redacted to the point of uselessness that that other 574 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: people were like, well, We're just going to leak the 575 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: entire thing. In part because of all the information that 576 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: has been declassified and released in the last few decades, 577 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,720 Speaker 1: there are various organizations and institutions that are really still 578 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,760 Speaker 1: wrestling with how to reconcile their own histories with paper 579 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 1: clippers and their own connection to the Nazi Party and 580 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: war crimes. We'll be talking about that, Uh, but since 581 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 1: that will involve some of the discussion of more specific 582 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: people who were part of the program in a future episode. 583 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: It might be the next episode, but since I haven't 584 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 1: written it yet, as I said at the top of 585 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: the show, I don't quite want to promise anything. Do 586 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: you have a little bit of listener mail? I do 587 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 1: have listener mail. This is actually a listener Facebook comment, 588 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: which I don't think we read a lot of, and 589 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: listener to mail because they tend to be a little 590 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: trickier for us to keep up with than the email 591 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 1: which is just there in the inbox. UM. And this 592 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: is from Anne, who was commenting on the behind the 593 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 1: scenes where Uh, Holly and I had been talking about 594 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,879 Speaker 1: the Tacoma Narrows Bridge. UM. And I talked about how 595 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:07,919 Speaker 1: when I was a kid, I would go on road 596 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 1: trips with my mom to western North Carolina. UM, and 597 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:12,959 Speaker 1: when we got to the Lynn Cove Dot, we would 598 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:14,839 Speaker 1: just turn around before we got to the Lynn Cove 599 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: Viaduct because we were both scared of heights and my 600 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:18,759 Speaker 1: mom didn't want to drive on it and I didn't 601 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,319 Speaker 1: want to ride on it. Uh. And I was like, 602 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: I assume it's still there. So Anne has left a 603 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: comment to say, just listen, Tracy. The Lynn Cove Viaduct 604 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: is indeed still there on the Blue Ridge Parkway. When 605 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 1: we used to live in Atlanta, we would drive that 606 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 1: section of the Blue Ridge Parkway on our way to 607 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 1: family get togethers in Blowing Rock. As a passenger, it 608 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 1: never really bothered me, but I've never driven it. The 609 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,240 Speaker 1: way it is set up against the side of the mountain, 610 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 1: it feels like more of the same curvy mountain roads 611 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 1: and less like being on a bridge to me. And 612 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: I've definitely been on way scarier curvy mountain roads than 613 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,800 Speaker 1: the Blue Ridge Parkway Rocky Mountain National Park anyone. Anyway, 614 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,800 Speaker 1: thanks ladies for the great podcast. As always, I've listened 615 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,280 Speaker 1: since the short episode Day is not from the very beginning, 616 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,319 Speaker 1: but I found it early enough that listening from the 617 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: beginning wasn't nearly the shore it would be now stuff 618 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:08,759 Speaker 1: you miss and History Class remains and one of my 619 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 1: favorite podcasts of all the ones that listened to, and 620 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:12,839 Speaker 1: I have learned so much about so many things over 621 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,879 Speaker 1: the years, So thank you Anne for this comment. It's 622 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 1: been so long since I've been able to go to 623 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 1: western North Carolina that I was like I assume that 624 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 1: registered there. I did, uh. So I went to college 625 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: in Asheville, North Carolina. I grew up outside of Winston Salem, 626 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 1: North Carolina. And when I got to the point that 627 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 1: I was going to be able to take a car 628 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: with me to college, I was like, I'm gonna have 629 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,720 Speaker 1: to get over this fear of heights, because I cannot 630 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:48,359 Speaker 1: drive myself up the mountain if I don't. So I 631 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 1: did eventually drive on the Lynco Viaduct myself without my 632 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:58,799 Speaker 1: mom um, and I have, you know, driven on things 633 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,359 Speaker 1: that are definitely much scary er than that. Weirdly, one 634 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: of them was UM going to a thing that used 635 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: to happen once a year called max fun Con, which 636 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,839 Speaker 1: was held in Lake Arrowhead, California, which involved driving out 637 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,879 Speaker 1: a road that felt like a lot like driving up 638 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 1: the mountain on I forty to go to Asheville from 639 00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 1: from points east of there, except it would go on 640 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,920 Speaker 1: a lot longer um. And so the first time that 641 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:28,200 Speaker 1: I was going to go there, I had kind of 642 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 1: asked people like, how how scary is this drive, and 643 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: They're like, Oh, it's not that bad. And as I 644 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: was driving up there, I was like, Oh, this just 645 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,840 Speaker 1: feels just like driving on I forty. But it just 646 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 1: kept going. Um, and there was one of those low 647 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 1: lying cloud days and at some point I got above 648 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,719 Speaker 1: the cloud and was able to see down it. And 649 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,919 Speaker 1: that's when I was like, oh, this is a little 650 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: higher than I might like to be right now. I 651 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 1: can't understand that. So anyway, thank you Anne for this comment. Um, 652 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: if you would like to write to us about this 653 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:03,879 Speaker 1: or any other podcasts were History Podcast at i heart 654 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,919 Speaker 1: radio dot com. We're all over social media A miss 655 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,400 Speaker 1: in History? Uh, That's where you'll find our Facebook and 656 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: Twitter and Pinterest and Instagram. Even though we don't read 657 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,919 Speaker 1: Facebook comments on the show very often, we do see 658 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 1: them when people leave them. We don't really see the 659 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,839 Speaker 1: ones that people really leave on our website though. The 660 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:24,520 Speaker 1: thing we don't have the power to turn off with 661 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 1: folks leave comments there. Um. You can subscribe to our 662 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,399 Speaker 1: show on the I heart Radio app and anywhere else 663 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 1: do you get podcasts. Stuff you missed in History Class 664 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,120 Speaker 1: is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts 665 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,560 Speaker 1: from I heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 666 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,840 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.