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Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely

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Speaker 1: those of the authors and participants and do not necessarily

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Speaker 1: represent those of I Heart Media, Stuff Media, or its employees.

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Speaker 1: Listener discretion is advised from my Heart Radio and Tenderfoot TV.

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Speaker 1: Monster Presents Insomniac. I don't know for sure, but I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna wager a guest that most of you have never

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Speaker 1: seen a barn fire in person before. It's something that

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Speaker 1: I've witnessed several times in the past, and strangely enough,

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Speaker 1: I had a dream about a barn fire last night.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I would call it a nightmare,

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Speaker 1: but it was definitely a vivid, realistic dream that made

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Speaker 1: me think of being a young boy again in northern Indiana.

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Speaker 1: I was standing there on my footy pajamas watching a

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Speaker 1: structure fire that had no hope of being put out

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Speaker 1: before the entire building was consumed. It took me right

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Speaker 1: back to when I was five or six years old.

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Speaker 1: I remember driving miles and miles behind fire trucks and

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Speaker 1: then standing out in the cold air of a Midwestern night.

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Speaker 1: Barnes burned incredibly fast and incredibly hot. Usually by the

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Speaker 1: time the fire trucks arrived, it was too late to

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Speaker 1: save the building. They were just there to knock down

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Speaker 1: the flames and prevented them spread into the farmhouse or

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Speaker 1: other nearby buildings. Sometimes the farmers were lucky enough to

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Speaker 1: get the animals out. Sometimes they weren't so fortunate. But

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Speaker 1: with a loft full of hay fueling the fire, there

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Speaker 1: was usually no hope, and that always made it even

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Speaker 1: more tragic. Sometimes there was a lot of confusion on

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Speaker 1: the ground. Other times everything seemed eerily calm as the

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Speaker 1: fireman went about their business. It all played out right

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Speaker 1: in front of us. It was exciting and terrifying, beautiful

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Speaker 1: yet terrible all at once. I'm Scott Benjamin, and everything

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Speaker 1: I'm about to tell you is real. This is insomniac.

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Speaker 1: It was April and Arthur shaw Cross, now age, was

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Speaker 1: out of prison and on parole once again, and this

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Speaker 1: time his appearance was dramatically different. He was no longer

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Speaker 1: the relatively fit and trim six ft tall ex military

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Speaker 1: man that went into prison in nineteen He now weighed

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Speaker 1: three hundred pounds and it wasn't muscle. His third wife, Penny,

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Speaker 1: had divorced him in ninet, just three years into his

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Speaker 1: prison term, but he already had another girlfriend waiting for him.

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Speaker 1: Her name was Rose, and she had been Arthur's prison penpal.

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Speaker 1: Life on the outside was different for Arthur this time.

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Speaker 1: For one, he and Rose couldn't find a place to live.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't that there were no houses for rent or

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Speaker 1: apartments available. The problem was that no community wanted a

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Speaker 1: convicted child rapist and murderer moving in. Arthur couldn't return

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Speaker 1: to Watertown for obvious reasons, and since his post prison

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Speaker 1: relocations were well publicized in the first three communities he tried,

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Speaker 1: there was a strong objection to his arrival. First they

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Speaker 1: tried Bingham, to New York, then Delhi, then Fleishman's but

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Speaker 1: in every case he and Rose were run out of town.

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Speaker 1: A senior parole board officer finally decided it was time

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Speaker 1: to try something different. They made the unfortunate decision to

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Speaker 1: seal Arthur shaw Crosses criminal records and then moved him

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Speaker 1: two d and fifty miles away into an apartment in

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Speaker 1: the city of Rochester, New York, without telling the members

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Speaker 1: of the community or the authorities. In other words, no

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Speaker 1: one knew who he was and his violent sex offender

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Speaker 1: past was now invisible. Arthur soon found a job to

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Speaker 1: pay the bills, work in the night shift, chopping and

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Speaker 1: packaging salads and boxes for a local food service company,

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Speaker 1: and he and Rose were married in the summer of

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Speaker 1: By Christmas of the same year, Arthur, now age forty two,

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Speaker 1: was already having an affair with an older woman named

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Speaker 1: Clara Neil. She was fifty six. By the spring of

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Speaker 1: shaw Crosses typical behavior was so erratic that neither of

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Speaker 1: the two women he was involved with noticed anything unusual

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Speaker 1: when he began staying out all night and using his

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Speaker 1: mistress's borrowed car, blue Dodge Omni two cruise for prostitutes

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Speaker 1: in the industrial area near the Genesee River. That's where

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Speaker 1: he found his first adult victim, a prostitute by the

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Speaker 1: name of Dorothy Blackburn. The agreement the two made was

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Speaker 1: for mutual oral sex for thirty dollars. Years later, shaw

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Speaker 1: Cross would claim that during the encounter, Dorothy bit his penis,

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Speaker 1: drawing blood and infuriating shaw Cross to the point of

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Speaker 1: violent retribution. In turn, he bit a chunk of flesh

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Speaker 1: out of her vagina and then choked her until she

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Speaker 1: was unconscious. He then drove her lifeless body out to

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Speaker 1: one of his favorite fishing spots, the bridge over the

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Speaker 1: Salmon River in Northampton Park, and dropped her into the

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Speaker 1: cold water below. Her remains would be found for nearly

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Speaker 1: a week. She was well preserved in the icy water,

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Speaker 1: but the river had also removed any evidence that her

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Speaker 1: killer might have left behind, aside from the deep bite

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Speaker 1: marks around her genitals. The community of Rochester, New York

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Speaker 1: didn't know it yet, but Dorothy Blackburn's murder was just

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Speaker 1: the first of what would be many, many more and

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Speaker 1: Arthur's second series of victims. It would be almost four

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Speaker 1: months before Arthur would strike again. It was early July,

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Speaker 1: and now that he was ready, he returned to his

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Speaker 1: favorite hunting ground, a stretch of road called Lyle Avenue

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Speaker 1: in downtown Rochester. It was there that he found another prostitute,

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Speaker 1: Anna Marie Stephen. A deal was made between the two

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Speaker 1: sex for cash, and they headed down to the banks

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Speaker 1: of the Genesee River and the dark privacy that location provided.

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Speaker 1: But when shaw Cross was unable to perform sexually, he

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Speaker 1: claims Anna Marie made fun of him, so he punched

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Speaker 1: her to the ground in the darkness. She crawled into

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Speaker 1: the river to escape, but he went in after her,

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Speaker 1: grabbed her by the throat, and held her underwater until

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Speaker 1: she drowned. This time, he simply let the body float

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Speaker 1: downstream instead of trying to hide it. She was discovered

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Speaker 1: two months later. Somehow, Arthur resisted the urge to kill

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Speaker 1: for a full year before taking his third victim in Rochester.

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Speaker 1: This time it was a homeless woman, Dorothy keeler Age.

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Speaker 1: Dorothy was working as a waitress in a diner shaw

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Speaker 1: Crossing asionally visited, and she and Arthur were having an affair.

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Speaker 1: It was July and the two had spent a lazy

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Speaker 1: afternoon together fishing and having sex on seth Green Island

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Speaker 1: in the middle of the Genesee River. At some point,

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Speaker 1: the conversation grew serious, and Dorothy threatened to reveal herself

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Speaker 1: to the other two women in shaw Across his life,

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Speaker 1: his wife Rose and his mistress Clara. Arthur and Dorothy argued.

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Speaker 1: He flew into a rage, picked up a heavy log,

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Speaker 1: and he beat Dorothy to death. He then concealed her

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Speaker 1: body under a fallen tree before heading home for the evening. Later,

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Speaker 1: shaw Cross told police that he returned to Keiller's corpse

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Speaker 1: months afterward, to remove her skull, He threw it into

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Speaker 1: the river and it was never found. What was left

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Speaker 1: of her body was discovered by fisherman on October, nearly

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Speaker 1: three months after she went missing. Just six days after

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Speaker 1: Dorothy Keeler was found on October, the discarded body of

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Speaker 1: yet another local sex worker, Patricia Ives, would be uncovered

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Speaker 1: at a construction site. She had also been strangled. A

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Speaker 1: little more than two weeks later, the bodies of two

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Speaker 1: Rochester prostitutes were found on the same day, November, Francis Brown,

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Speaker 1: aged and Kimberly Logan, aged thirty. They had been taken

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Speaker 1: just days apart in early November. Kimberly Logan was found

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Speaker 1: to have leaves stuffed down her throat to silence her

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Speaker 1: during her attack. Similar to shaw Cross's second victim, a

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Speaker 1: year old Karen Hill. Arthur also used this tactic to

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Speaker 1: silence the animals he killed when he was much younger.

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Speaker 1: Just days later, on Thanksgiving Day, the body of another

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Speaker 1: local woman was found underneath the blanket and a pile

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Speaker 1: of brush. It was the body of June stott Age, thirty.

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Speaker 1: She had been missing for exactly one month. She was

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Speaker 1: not a prostitute or a drug user. In fact, Stott

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Speaker 1: was a friend of Rose and Arthur shaw Cross, even

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Speaker 1: an occasional guest at their home. Similar to the other

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Speaker 1: recent victims, June Stott had been strangled to death. Unlike

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Speaker 1: the other adult victims to date, however, her body had

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Speaker 1: been mutilated. She was sodomized after she was killed. She

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Speaker 1: had been gutted from her genitals to her throat, and

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Speaker 1: her vagina had been cut out and removed. Arthur would

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Speaker 1: later claim that he had eaten that part of her

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Speaker 1: on with some internal organs. The killer's violence, as well

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Speaker 1: as the frequency with which he was taking his victims,

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Speaker 1: had now escalated considerably. It was impossible for the police

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Speaker 1: and the press to ignore the similarities among the recent slangs,

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Speaker 1: and while the detectives continued to comb through the criminal

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Speaker 1: records of the violent offenders that might be living in

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Speaker 1: the area, Arthur shaw Crosses sealed criminal records meant that

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Speaker 1: he didn't show up on any police searches. He remained invisible.

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Speaker 1: As a result of interviews with the local prostitutes. The

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Speaker 1: authorities were now canvassing the street corners and bars looking

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Speaker 1: for a suspicious man that several of the ladies had

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Speaker 1: come to know Ah's Mitch. He was a regular customer

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Speaker 1: on Lysle Avenue, and some of them knew, both of

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Speaker 1: experience and word of mouth, that Mitch was not only

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Speaker 1: capable of violence, but he was also with several of

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Speaker 1: the now missing women. What the cops didn't realize at

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Speaker 1: the time was that they were closer than ever to

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Speaker 1: the mysterious Mitch, and they were unintentionally giving him inside

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Speaker 1: information that allowed him to continue his deadly attacks virtually unchallenged.

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Speaker 1: M Arthur and Rose shaw Cross lived at two one

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Speaker 1: Alexander Street in Rochester, New York. There was a dunkin

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Speaker 1: Donuts located just down the block from their home, on

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Speaker 1: the corner of Alexander Street and Monroe Avenue, about a

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Speaker 1: four minute walk from door to door. Arthur was a

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Speaker 1: regular customer there. I know it sounds cliche, but that

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Speaker 1: donut shop is where the police would often gather, the

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Speaker 1: place where they felt like it was safe to let

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Speaker 1: their guard down a bit, And of course the shop

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Speaker 1: talk often turned to what was happening in the Genesee

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Speaker 1: River killer case. Arthur was routinely present for these discussions.

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Speaker 1: Between his deadly attacks, Arthur would learn exactly what the

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Speaker 1: police were discussing the leads they were chasing down and

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Speaker 1: in general how close they were to capturing, well him,

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Speaker 1: the killer. The whole thing was a sort of cat

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Speaker 1: and mouse game, where the mouse, Arthur, had the inside

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Speaker 1: line and exactly what the cat the Rochester police were

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Speaker 1: up to. Years after his arrest, Arthur was asked about

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Speaker 1: his donut shopped conversations with the police. He attributed to

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Speaker 1: his ability to get away with being so close to

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Speaker 1: his pursuers without suspicion, to being well groomed and well dressed,

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Speaker 1: including wearing shiny shoes a trade. Arthur claimed the police

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Speaker 1: liked about him at the donut counter. He the role

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Speaker 1: of a concerned citizen instead of the sort of individually

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Speaker 1: he might suspect would be out on the streets killing

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Speaker 1: prostitutes at night. And because Arthur had gained their trust,

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Speaker 1: he was occasionally given some friendly inside information about the stakeouts,

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Speaker 1: where the decoy prostitutes were located, and the investigation in general,

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Speaker 1: straight from the police work in the case, Well, this

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Speaker 1: is a fairly rare situation. It's not the first time

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Speaker 1: we've heard a similar story. Edmund Kemper is an example

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Speaker 1: of another serial killer who befriended the local police to

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Speaker 1: gain inside information on the investigation of the murders he

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Speaker 1: was carrying out. He hung out with police in a

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Speaker 1: bar called the Jury Room, across the street from the

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Speaker 1: Santa Cruz County Courthouse in Santa Cruz, California. Similar to

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Speaker 1: shaw Cross, the police came to know Kemper as a friend.

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Speaker 1: One of the officers even once gave him a set

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Speaker 1: of real police handcuffs as a gift. He occasionally used

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Speaker 1: them in his killings. If the code he abducted was

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Speaker 1: putting up a struggle, it was late. Arthur shaw Cross

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Speaker 1: was forty four years old, and his body count continued

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Speaker 1: to steadily grow. Seven missing women had already turned up dead,

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Speaker 1: and there would be numerous more before it was all over.

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Speaker 1: Just four days after the Thanksgiving Day discovery of June

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Speaker 1: Stott's body, another shaw Cross victim was found. This time

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Speaker 1: it was Elizabeth Gibson, aged nine. She was a prostitute,

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Speaker 1: strangled to death just like the others. However, her body

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Speaker 1: was dumped in nearby Wayne County, New York, instead of Rochester,

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Speaker 1: as Arthur felt the police were getting a little too

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Speaker 1: close for his comfort level. Next, it was the body

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Speaker 1: of twenty year old Felicias Stevens found on New Year's Eve,

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Speaker 1: murdered just three days after Christmas. She was Arthur's final kill,

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Speaker 1: but she wouldn't be the last victim recovered. There were

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Speaker 1: still missing women to be found. Just three days later,

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Speaker 1: on January three, the body of June Cicero was recovered

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Speaker 1: as a result of the New York State Trooper helicopter

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Speaker 1: surveillance flight. Those on the scene would note that her

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Speaker 1: body had been mutilated in a manner similar to two

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Speaker 1: earlier victims. At some point after her death, the killer

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Speaker 1: had returned to June Cicero's frozen body to remove her

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Speaker 1: vagina with a small hand saw. This was the same

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Speaker 1: surveillance flight that also exposed Arthur shaw Cross parked on

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Speaker 1: the bridge directly above June Cicero's frozen corpse. When the

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Speaker 1: authorities finally caught up to and questioned him on that

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Speaker 1: first day, Arthur reluctantly told them he was previously found

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Speaker 1: guilty of manslaughter in Watertown in but he denied any

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Speaker 1: knowledge of the recent Rochester murders, and since he wasn't

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Speaker 1: under arrest, he was questioned a while longer photographed and released.

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Speaker 1: Kept under constant surveillance, of course, but released overnight. The

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Speaker 1: detectives did their homework right away. They found his sealed

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Speaker 1: criminal file and a link to some critical physical evidence

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Speaker 1: in the case. They investigated Arthur's place of employment, a

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Speaker 1: food service company called G and G Cheese, and found

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Speaker 1: that the company used a brand of handy wipes that

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Speaker 1: matched those founded two of the crime scenes, and they

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Speaker 1: were the same wipes found in shaw Crosses home too.

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Speaker 1: And from there the rest of the missing pieces started

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Speaker 1: coming together. One point that really grabbed the investigator's attention

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Speaker 1: was when Arthur started telling them about his favorite fishing spots.

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Speaker 1: All the places he preferred along the river coincided with

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Speaker 1: where the bodies of the missing prostitutes were found. Just

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Speaker 1: two days after their initial contact with shaw Cross, and

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Speaker 1: with around the clock investigation into his background and activities,

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Speaker 1: including several hours of conversation with him personally, the police

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Speaker 1: had enough evidence to arrest him and charge him with

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Speaker 1: the murders. The date was January five, Arthur knew was over.

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Speaker 1: He asked to be allowed to speak with his wife, Rose,

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Speaker 1: and said that if he could just speak to her first,

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Speaker 1: he'd tell them everything they wanted to know, and that's

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Speaker 1: what he did. Throughout his lengthy confession to the authorities,

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Speaker 1: Arthur showed no sign of emotion, no remorse at all.

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Speaker 1: When asked why he did it, he coldly stated that

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Speaker 1: he was just taking care of business. With the sign

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Speaker 1: confession in hand, the authorities allowed Arthur to lead them

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Speaker 1: to the bodies of two missing women they hadn't yet recovered,

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Speaker 1: Maria welch Ago, who had been missing since early November,

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Speaker 1: and Darlene Trippy, age two, who had been missing since December.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't a surprise that both women had been strangled

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Speaker 1: to death. When it was all over, the number of

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Speaker 1: women who lost their lives at the hands of Arthur

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Speaker 1: shaw Cross in Rochester alone was twelve, and when you

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Speaker 1: add the two children he killed in Watertown in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy two, Jack Blake and Karen Hill, the grim total

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Speaker 1: grows to fourteen. Since all of victims were killed in

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Speaker 1: Monroe County, New York, with the exception of Elizabeth Gibson,

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Speaker 1: who was killed in nearby Wayne County, the Monroe County

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Speaker 1: trial was held first. The poor proceedings lasted nearly three months,

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Speaker 1: with all of Rochester keeping watch. It wasn't until years

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Speaker 1: later that I realized this siren chasing was a common

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Speaker 1: behavior in my family. We always watched from a safe

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Speaker 1: distance away, maybe a few hundred yards or so. Usually

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Speaker 1: we were close enough to smell the smoke and even

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Speaker 1: feel the heat. Sometimes I would see the whole structure

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Speaker 1: collapse onto itself. That always produced what seemed like a

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Speaker 1: million glory numbers shooting upwards, along with the blinding red

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Speaker 1: orange flames and a tower of the thickest black smoke

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Speaker 1: you can imagine, billowing into the sky. I remember it

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Speaker 1: was a thrill to be so near the action, but

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Speaker 1: it was also scary. My dad was always a siren chaser.

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Speaker 1: He couldn't resist getting close to the scene of an accident,

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Speaker 1: the fire, and arrest in progress, anything. Really, it was

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Speaker 1: a behavior he learned from his mother, my grandmother, and

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Speaker 1: lately I began to wonder if it was a behavior

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Speaker 1: that she had learned from her father, my great grandfather.

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Speaker 1: They lived in a small town, so whenever the sirens began,

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Speaker 1: my grandmother would load up to kids and go see

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Speaker 1: what she could. My dad was the same way when

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Speaker 1: I was growing up, and today I find it difficult

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Speaker 1: to resist turning the car around and see what's happening

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Speaker 1: if I see emergency lights. I can't believe that it

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Speaker 1: took me so long to realize that I'm the product

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Speaker 1: of at least three, possibly four generals of siren chaser's.

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Speaker 1: That explains a lot. In the United States, broadcasting and

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Speaker 1: photography of the court proceedings is allowed in some court

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Speaker 1: rooms but not others. In ninety nine, the eyes and

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Speaker 1: ears of the public were focused on the nationally televised

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Speaker 1: trial of serial killer Ted Bundy. In it was Jeffrey Dahmer,

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Speaker 1: in the Menendez Brothers, in he was the O. J.

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Speaker 1: Simpson trial. It's clear that television viewers enjoy watching high

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Speaker 1: profile criminal court cases play out in front of them

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Speaker 1: on live television, and while the nineteen ninety trial of

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Speaker 1: Arthur shaw Cross might have had a somewhat limited audience

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Speaker 1: due to its local coverage rather than national coverage, the

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Speaker 1: citizens of Rochester were more than willing to watch. The

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Speaker 1: New York Times ran an article about the televised shaw

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Speaker 1: Cross trial on December two nine, and it's said, like

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Speaker 1: a moth drawn to a flame, Rochester, a city of

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Speaker 1: two hundred and forty one thousand people has been both

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Speaker 1: repulsed and riveted by the proceedings in the teak paneled

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Speaker 1: second floor Core Room of the Monroe County Public Safety Building.

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Speaker 1: For more than ten weeks, the residents of Rochester and

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Speaker 1: the surrounding areas tuned in to witness the Core room

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Speaker 1: drama and theatrics of the show cross Case. It was

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Speaker 1: television that was difficult to watch at times because it

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Speaker 1: was a lured tale that included details of child sexual abuse, beastiality,

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Speaker 1: wartime atrocities, murder, reincarnation, corpse mutilation, and claims of cannibalism.

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Speaker 1: Adding to the public's outrage was the now widely known

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Speaker 1: fact that shaw Cross's criminal record had been sealed and

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Speaker 1: that a convicted child rapist and killer had been moved

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Speaker 1: into Rochester without alerting members of the community or the authorities.

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Speaker 1: They also saw him plead not guilty by reason of insanity,

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Speaker 1: well as defense attorney showed the Core room videotapes of

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Speaker 1: a supposedly hypnotized shaw Cross as he claimed to be

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Speaker 1: taken on one of his many multiple personalities, Ara Mas,

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Speaker 1: a reincarnated thirteenth century cannibal from England who Arthur claimed

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Speaker 1: taught him to eat human flesh. While the tapes were shown,

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Speaker 1: and throughout the entire trial, shaw Cross sat perfectly still

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Speaker 1: in the courtroom, head down, shoulders slumped, showing no emotion

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Speaker 1: at all. In the end, the jury didn't believe Arthur

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Speaker 1: was possessed, and much to everyone's relief, he is found

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Speaker 1: guilty of ten counts of second degree murder, with the

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Speaker 1: sentence of twenty five years for each count. Arthur shaw Cross,

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Speaker 1: now age, would be behind bars for the next two

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Speaker 1: d and fifty years with no chance of her role.

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Speaker 1: The following year, when the Wayne County trial was held,

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Speaker 1: shaw Cross simply played guilty to the second degree murder

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Speaker 1: of Elizabeth Gibson and received yet another life sentence. Arthur

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Speaker 1: was incarcerated at the Sullivan Correctional Facility, a maximum security

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Speaker 1: prison from male prisoners in Fallsburg, New York. In prison,

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Speaker 1: Arthur was an outsider, a pariah with very few exceptions.

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Speaker 1: He was avoided, ignored, and often threatened by nearly every

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Speaker 1: other inmate in Sullivan. They deemed him the lowest of

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Speaker 1: the low, a pedophile, a rapist, and a serial killer

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Speaker 1: of women and children. Soon after his conviction, Arthur was

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Speaker 1: divorced from his fourth wife, Rose. She served him with

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Speaker 1: papers on his forty nine birthday in June. Of Rose

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Speaker 1: shaw Cross would pass away less than three years later.

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Speaker 1: In the spring of Arthur was now legally free to

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Speaker 1: marry his former mistress Clara, and did so in a

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Speaker 1: ceremony held in the prison's visiting room on July. She

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Speaker 1: was his fifth wife, but his time in prison for

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Speaker 1: this his second series of murders, would be only slightly

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Speaker 1: longer than his sentence for the child killings back in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two. On November tenth, eight just shy of

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Speaker 1: eighteen years after his trial and conviction, Arthur shaw Cross,

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Speaker 1: now age sixty three, died of a pulmonary embolism. He

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Speaker 1: had complained of leg pain earlier in the day, and

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Speaker 1: by the time he was transferred to the Albany Medical

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Speaker 1: Center later that evening, it was too late. Arthur shaw

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Speaker 1: Cross was dead, and the citizens of upstate New York

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Speaker 1: breathed a collective sigh of relief. Well, the best case

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Speaker 1: scenario would have been devoid even a single murder that

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Speaker 1: might not even have been entirely possible in this case.

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Speaker 1: Throughout his entire life, whenever he wasn't in prison. Arthur

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Speaker 1: shaw Cross was killing, whether as when he was a

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Speaker 1: kid torturing and killing small animals, as a young adult

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Speaker 1: torturing and killing children, whereas a middle aged man strangling

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Speaker 1: and killing sex workers. And if Arthur shaw Cross had

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Speaker 1: not been granted the plea bargain deal in nWo after

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Speaker 1: the Watertown child killings, he would have been locked up

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Speaker 1: for life. The body count would have stopped at just

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Speaker 1: two instead of reaching fourteen. Two dead children are bad enough,

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Speaker 1: but in this case, a series of poor decisions led

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Speaker 1: to the deaths of twelve additional women. In Rochester, New York.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand eleven, in a South Georgia college town,

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Speaker 1: a bad neighbor was lurking near campus. People found him creepy, antisocial,

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Speaker 1: but he turned out to be far worse than anyone

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Speaker 1: ever expected, a predator who selected the woman next door

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Speaker 1: as his prey. I'll prove that you never know who

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Speaker 1: might move into your neighborhood, and you certainly have no

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Speaker 1: idea what they're up to or capable of behind closed doors.

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Speaker 1: Next time on Insomniac. Insomniac is a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Rate and Tenderfoot TV, written and hosted by Scott

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Speaker 1: Benjamin and produced by Miranda Hawkins, Alex Williams, Matt Frederick,

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00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: and Josh Thain. Music composed by Makeup and Vanity Said,

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Speaker 1: and cover art by Trevor Eisler. Follow on Twitter and

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Speaker 1: Facebook at Insomniac Pod, on Instagram at Insomniac podcast, and

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Speaker 1: at our website insomniac podcast dot com. For more podcasts

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Speaker 1: from my Heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows