WEBVTT - Ep. 228: Render - Eating Caviar with Game Wardens 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:17.239 My name is Clay Nukleman. This is a production of 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:21.400 the bear Grease podcast called The bear Grease Render, where 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:25.760 we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:30.560 of the actual bear Grease podcast, presented by f h 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:35.360 F Gear, American Maid, purpose built hunting and fishing gear 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:38.559 that's designed to be as rugged as the place as 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:49.559 we explore. Hit it, Christian, that sounds famil. Do you 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:50.160 know that song? 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:50.520 BRep? 0:00:50.640 --> 0:01:16.800 Yeah sounds good. All right, Joe, Welcome Christian. Good to 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:20.800 have you. Man, Hey, welcome to the beargreash Render. This 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:24.480 is a monumental day. Monumental day we have. We have 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:27.720 an incredible room full of guests. I've got Gary Believer 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:30.080 new come here to my right. Good to see you Dad. 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:34.919 Where does Believer hat? Yeah, that's like that's like me like, uh, it's. 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:36.200 Like Michael Jordan wearing Yeah. 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:39.600 Yeah, it's like Michael Jordan's wearing is m j you know, 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:43.119 like spreading out for the dunk. Welcome, Dad, thank you. 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:47.640 I'll introduce our guests. Last have Josh Lambridge Spilmmaker here 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:48.320 to the left. 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:49.000 Uh. 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:53.280 We have Brent Reeves of this Country Life wearing his 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:59.160 overall is looking good as usual I've never want Yeah, yeah, 0:01:59.200 --> 0:01:59.920 you were. 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:02.960 Well, we're the ones that are nice and broke into yep, 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:05.240 every I got like seventh pair of them. 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:07.400 They're all will What is it? 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:09.640 Is there a strategy one for every day? 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:12.079 Yeah? Oh yeah, if you have a Sunday. 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:14.600 You don't watch them every day. I know that's a lie. 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:17.000 No, Lexis does takes them right down to the creek, 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:20.480 the old rock down there that gal's working. 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:24.720 Well, good to have you, Brent. Our our guest today, 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:29.000 who uh, Lieutenant Joe Alexander, Yes, Sir, Oklahoma Department of 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:31.600 Wildlife game Warden. Good to have you back. You're on 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:32.440 the last render. 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:33.440 Glad to be here. 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:36.800 Yeah, it was, it's it's been. Uh it was a 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:39.600 lot of fun last time. And uh kind of our 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:43.200 guest of honor today, I don't know about that. Well, 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.760 you're you're our guest of honor for sure. Is retired 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:49.880 Oklahoma game Warden Jeff Brown. 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:51.079 Who was good to be here. 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:53.680 Who was the star of the Last Burgeris podcast. 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:58.200 You know there again if you want to call it that, yeah. 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:00.560 That's what we call it. That's what we can Jeff 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:01.680 the star. 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:04.239 And my uh my wife's getting a kick out of it. 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:07.679 I know that did she What did she think? Did she? 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:07.440 She? 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:11.079 She likes it? And uh the part there at the 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:13.440 at the leading end of that he said something about 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:17.040 legendary Oklahoma law man in the Sooner state or something, 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:20.720 and she guff aled And she's still she's still laughing 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:25.040 about it. But I played it back and forth several times. 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:28.320 She's like's gonna start rolling in. 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:33.560 Yeah, Yeah, I guess I need to. I need to 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:36.640 solve something like right off the bat I had somebody. 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:40.800 So far, the only complaint I've heard about the podcast 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:46.200 is that I called Oklahoma the Midwest. So so I'm 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:51.040 asking the Oklahoma's in the room. Is Oklahoma the Midwest? 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:53.840 You know, it could be the Midwest, it's you know, 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:57.440 maybe central I don't know, you know, we're part of 0:03:57.440 --> 0:03:58.880 the Central Flyway. 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:01.280 Yeah, and it's it's kind of it's kind of the 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:04.960 it's uh, it's part of the Southwest. It's part of 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:07.560 the South, it's part of the southeast. Part of the 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:09.520 Midwest's kind of in the center. It could it's the 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:10.960 either the say. 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:13.240 That qualifies for it being in the Midwest. 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:18.480 Geographical center of the United States in Oklahoma. 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:23.080 It's in Kansas, Kansas. The geographic center of the US 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:27.520 is is a town kind of like in I think 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:31.960 it's central to West Kansas. Don't quote me on the 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:34.640 West Kansas, but it's definitely in Kansas. Do you know 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:39.400 where the center of them? Okay, completely unrelated, but related 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:43.560 to geography and the center of ranges. I learned something 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:47.279 this week. If you were to pick where the absolute 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:51.600 dead center geographic center in North America of the Black 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:56.200 Bear Range would be, what state is the center of 0:04:56.240 --> 0:04:57.800 the Black Bear Range in North America? 0:04:57.920 --> 0:04:58.520 Arkansas? 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:01.400 Good quick, that's what I thought, deep in my heart, 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:04.159 I would say Missouri, Missouri. 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:08.760 Yeah, Tennessee, Tennessee. 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:14.479 Okay, any guesses, I'll give you a hint. We're underestimating 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:19.800 the size of Canada. Minnesota. 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:20.680 Minnesota. 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:26.000 Minnesota is the dead center. Like think about Alaska, Oh yeah, Florida, 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:30.919 New Brunswick and Newfoundland, all the way into Old Mexico, 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:34.680 all the way to up to like almost to the 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:36.880 to none of it, I mean, black Bear Ranger doesn't 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:39.400 go that far. But yeah, Minnesota. I was surprised that 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:42.640 you don't think of Minnesota as central to anything. But 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:46.120 when you but the North American continent and black Bear 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:47.159 Range it is. 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:47.920 That's good. 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:51.880 Yeah, big, That would make it about the geographical center 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:55.560 of North America itself, because black Bear Range, with little exception, 0:05:56.279 --> 0:05:58.680 is just about North America exactly. 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:01.120 It covers a lot of Yeah, it covers a lot 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:01.320 of it. 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:01.760 For sure. 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:05.760 I'd consider Oklahoma the hub of America. 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:06.800 There we go. 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:10.400 You have the right to think that he's also toting 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:13.279 the gun, so that we'll take his word for that. 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:17.120 We uh, yeah, we over just a little bit further east. 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:26.120 Think it's kind of over here. But no, Jeff, when 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:26.919 did you retire? 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:31.160 It in? I retired last October October of twenty three. 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:34.200 And you started in eighty five, eighty five, So how 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:34.840 many years now? 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:38.200 Thirty eight thirty eight years and one month? 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:44.760 When when you when you retired? Was it? 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:44.880 Was? 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:45.640 It difficult? 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:46.880 It was. 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:54.280 Being a game warden I lived. That was my life 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:58.640 and my family's life. That's what we did. I did 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:01.040 it on a daily basis, but but my family was 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.080 directly affected by it on a daily basis. 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:07.440 And uh, and by that you mean just like being 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:08.760 on call twenty four. 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:12.600 Being on call, it's it's uh, it's a way of life. 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:14.640 It's not a job. It's a way of life. It's 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:19.560 a lifestyle, and we lived it, and so naturally when 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:21.520 I just threw a light switch and one day I 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:24.640 wasn't anymore, Joe drove me to Oklahoma City my last 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:27.120 day and and turned all my stuff in and on 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:30.040 the way home. You know, one minute I was one, 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:32.920 the next minute I'm not. It took some getting used to, 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:37.720 and I'm getting used to it, but it did. It 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:42.520 hurt for a few months. And uh, but I'm I 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:45.640 didn't miss the phone being tied to the phone twenty 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:51.280 four to seven, but even that got got Uh. It 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:53.960 was hard to get used to because I was constantly 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:56.560 looking at my phone waiting for it to go off. Yeah, 0:07:56.680 --> 0:08:00.000 and and it took me a while to talk myself 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:02.600 and I didn't have to do that anymore. Yeah, Yeah, 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:04.480 but it was It was a great It was a 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:07.440 great career, great life. I loved it. I lived at 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:12.800 I was ready. I was I was ready to quit. 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:14.520 I outlived my usefulness. 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:17.760 So now, Brent, you were tired about the same time, 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:21.240 same month, did y'all? Did y'all? I guess you hadn't met. 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:23.920 We had the same party, are at the same party. 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:28.320 It seems like a pretty good strategy to uh on 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:30.600 your undercover work to retire. 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:35.920 Yeah. Probably, it is a great it's a very you 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:38.160 don't think about it when it's all going on, but 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:41.360 then one day, just like Joe said, you wake up 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:44.240 and you're just like the guy next door. Yeah. Yeah, 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:45.079 kind of weird. 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:50.920 Yeah, now, Joe, you and Jeff worked together pretty closely 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:52.320 for years, is that right? 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:55.080 Yeah, yeah, that would be That would be an understatement. 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:57.640 There's a we go back a long ways. In fact, 0:08:57.679 --> 0:08:59.559 I wouldn't be here for worn't for him. As far 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:03.040 as game arden work goes, I can the first time 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:06.400 when Jeff moved to to the county that that I 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:10.280 grew up in. That's kind of what introduced me, you know, 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:12.720 to to him and game warden work. 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:14.280 Before you work for the department. 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:15.440 Oh yeah, when I was a kid. 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:17.480 Oh really, So yeah, you've known. 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:20.319 I've known Joe since he was in high school. It's 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:23.480 not before. Yeah, And uh I knew his dad. His 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:27.040 dad was a hunter education instructor for me. Uh I 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:29.679 say for me, he was a volunteer hunter instructor that 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:31.880 would help me and and do classes for me and 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:35.680 with me. And got to know Joe through him, and yeah, 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:40.040 and Joe got into law enforcement and and uh we 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:42.800 joke and it's kind of a kid, but he was 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:45.840 my deputy for a long time before whoever was a 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:46.360 game arder. 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:46.920 Yeah. 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:49.600 Yeah, it's kind of a unique story, but you know, 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:51.720 it's it's just kind of the way it played out. 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:54.640 I started out law enforcement as a police officer, and 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:57.720 I wound up deciding that wasn't for me. And but 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:00.640 I enjoyed law enforcement. I enjoyed hunting and fee I thought, well, 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:03.080 what's the best bet? You know, got the visiting with 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:05.640 Jeff about it and decided, you know, game boarding, that's 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:07.440 a perfect fit. So I had to go back to 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:09.520 college to get all that time of squared away and 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:14.120 then you know it just everything worked out that I 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:17.680 became a game warden later on and the rest is history. 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:21.000 We spent a long time together, even before, like you said, 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:23.079 before I was a game boarding officially. 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:26.000 So yeah, when did you start? 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:28.600 I started in uh six? 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:30.920 O six? Yeah, O six? 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:35.480 Excellent, dad. Do you have any advice for for Brent 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:37.320 and Jeff on retirement? You're kind of a pro. 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:37.880 Yeah. 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:39.680 Yeah, when'd you retire ten years ago? 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:40.080 Yeah? 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:44.680 Thirteen thirteen, Yeah, twenty thirteen. Oheen. 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:48.640 Yeah, yeah, well you know, just LOLLI dag all you can, man, 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:50.520 because it's coming to an end pretty quick. 0:10:53.640 --> 0:11:01.079 Well on that note, yeah, pretty good advice. So today, 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:06.520 would you say, you know, in the in the episode, Jeff, 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:09.960 you emphasized how much it's like paddlefish was king over 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:14.360 in terms of enforcement and what you guys are doing 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:17.600 that was like high on the list. Is that is 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:18.880 that still the way it is? 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:23.880 It is at least as of October it was, you know, 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:28.360 and I was the district captain for several years. For 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:30.760 eighteen years, I was a district captain, and so I 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:35.280 got to dictate some of what was important and what wasn't. Yeah, 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:39.160 but but yes, paddlefish is very important, like we've talked 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:43.320 about before, because of the uniqueness and the opportunity to 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:49.199 to uh over exploit and so so you know, deer 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:52.200 I went to work back in eighty five and we 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:55.040 were still growing our deer herd. We were still growing 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:59.600 our turkey herd, our turkey flock. I'm sorry, but those 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:02.280 things for most part been taken care of. You know, 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:08.800 Deer here to stay. Paddlefish is something that is there 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:12.719 again is unique and and and extremely valuable not only 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:16.640 sport fishery, but also on a commercial side. And it 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:20.920 deserves a lot of protection. And that's what it got 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:21.840 from us. 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:26.280 It's interesting to hear you've put it like that that, uh, 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:32.240 these species that are recovering might receive more attention early on. 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:34.560 Is that what you're saying about? Like with deer turkeys 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:36.240 in the eighties and nineties. 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:38.120 When when when we were still growing the deer herd 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:41.480 in Oklahoma, Man, that was something we really worked hard on. 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:44.679 You worked on hard on deer poachers and and uh 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:48.920 and things like that because that was important. But the 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:52.560 deer herd has recovered not only in Oklahoma but the 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.880 whole United States for the most part. Same way with turkeys. Now, 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:59.040 turkeys may be on a kind of down right now, 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:02.280 but they'll be back. You know. We used to trap, 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:05.080 trap and transplant turkeys in Oklahoma, and I got in 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:07.800 on some of that, and then all of a sudden, 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:09.320 you know, they said, we don't need to do anymore 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:11.719 because if there's not turkeys there now, there will never 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:18.640 be turkeys there. So that reintroduction was complete. Well, and 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:21.480 so yeah, you move, you moved from one species to 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:24.560 the other depending on on on what's going on with 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:27.640 that species at the time. And uh, paddlefish was the 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:31.000 same way. You know, it was commercial fish in Oklahoma 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:34.880 back in the day, and caviar wasn't a thing then 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:38.240 and we phased out. 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:40.760 Just commercially fished for the meat. 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:44.400 Yeah, and and and even then, what the commercial fishermen 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:50.920 were fishing for, we're rough fish, flathead, Uh, some carp species, suckers. 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:56.480 Paddlefish was not even not not utilized that much. 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:58.120 I bet you, I bet they can make some good 0:13:58.200 --> 0:13:59.480 fish sticks out of paddlefish. 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:01.959 You know, the best, the best paddlefish meat that I've 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:07.480 had with smoked it. It can be real uh chicken 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:10.280 like in its texture. It's not flaky. It can be 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:13.760 pretty uh stringy for lack of a better word. And 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:16.600 smoked it was pretty good. I don't care that much 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:18.640 for it any other way. If you take it out 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:20.920 of the water and put it into grease, it's good. 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:21.760 Just quick. 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:25.240 Yeah, it's fresh, it's good, but you put it on 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:27.120 you put it in the freezer and want to thought 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:30.080 out and cook it later. Not so much. That's been 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:30.880 my experience. 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:35.280 Is anybody slight digression, Does anybody think it's a little 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:36.080 suspicious that. 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:36.360 Brent. 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:38.560 When did you get your commercial fishing license in Arkansas? 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:38.800 Brent? 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:40.240 This year? 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:42.920 Yeah, yeah, just like a few months ago. Yep, right 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:44.800 when you kind of learned about powlefish eggs. 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:51.000 It's always something I see where this is going. Yeah, yeah, 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:53.240 how long we've been friends. 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:57.080 They part of what we had to we it was 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:01.000 it was in the it was in the episode. But uh, Christian, 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:03.200 get your band you're ready. It was in the episode. 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:07.400 But how a lot of these guys were taking paddlefish 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:10.480 eggs out of Oklahoma and bringing them into Arkansas because 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:13.000 it was the closest state where you could legally sell 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:15.880 paddlefish eggs. They were smuggling it. I just I don't know. 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:17.880 I just I don't even have that license. I don't 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:19.280 have a road taker's license. 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:21.960 Well then probably there's a road taker's license. 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:27.080 Yeah, oh really with a commercial fishing Arkansas separate deal altogether. 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:27.920 I don't have it. 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:33.640 I don't have that, Okay, yeah, yeah, Dad, did you 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:34.960 know Brentson commercial fisherman? 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:38.280 Did you know that? I changed in my phone? I 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:42.920 changed his uh his phone number to uh to uh 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:47.960 hold on, wait for it. It's worth it guys commercial, 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:49.320 I can't say the bag. 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:50.320 I seen him run that. 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:54.760 Look it says, uh, commercial fisherman, Brent Reeves, that's who 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:59.080 is used to Yeah. I used to say, cameraman, change 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:04.320 it to commercial fishermen. Yeah, well, I totally hijacked your story. 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:08.960 Well, and kind of what he was talking about right there, 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:13.200 We didn't have commercial fishing in Oklahoma. It was phased 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:16.080 out over time. Now, in the first episode of all this, 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:20.280 there may have been may been some confusion. Yeah, some 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:24.520 people could have been confused, because yes, commercial fishing in 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.160 Oklahoma was outlawed in the in the late seventies, mid 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:29.920 to late seventies, but it was phased out over time. 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:34.640 So Billy Wishard was still commercial fishing even though it 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:38.520 was illegal in most parts. He was still commercial fishing 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:42.400 in the Grand Lake legally, legally in the late eighties, 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:46.600 early nineties, or he was associated with commercial fishermen in 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:50.360 lake because they outlawed it and then, but they just 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:54.760 didn't pull the plug on everybody's livelihood. So when when 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:58.840 this commercial fisherman would either get out of business or 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.720 pass away or whatever, that license for that lake was 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:05.159 never renewed. So now that lake has closed well, it 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:08.320 took several years to get around and Grand Lake was 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:11.199 the last lake to be CLOSEDO good way, I understand it. 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:14.680 And there was still legal commercial fishing on Grand Lake 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:16.640 into the late eighties early nineties. 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:21.639 Now, why would a state. It actually was news to 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:25.879 me that not every state had a commercial fishing you know, 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:28.600 people could be it just because in Arkansas, I just 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:30.840 always knew there were commercial fishermen that were fishing the 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:37.199 rivers and whatnot is what's the agency's philosophy on not 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:40.359 having commercial fishermen? I mean they just literally taken putting 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:44.119 too much tax on the resource for the management plan. 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:47.639 Yeah, probably a combination of that. I don't know that. 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:49.960 I don't know a hard and fast answer to that, 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:53.720 but it kind of goes back to one of the 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:57.840 conversations we had that wildlife is a public a public resource, 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:03.359 and if even if one person is benefiting from it, 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:08.680 it's short changing everybody else. Uh. And there again, anytime 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:15.080 anytime there's money involve, anytime anytime there's commercial, anytime there's 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:20.240 money involved, and with wildlife, wildlife loses. Even though there 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:25.760 are legal and good commercial fishermen, there's also that element 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:30.160 that's not and that happens that that's also true in 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:35.520 in guides, fishing guides, hunting guides, anything in the wildlife. Buess, 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:38.480 you got you got good people, but then you got 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:42.000 unscrupulous ones over here. If I can say that word 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:48.080 that that makes it hard on everybody else. Uh. I 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:51.479 don't know the exact answer. The direct answer to that is, 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:56.560 but mostly Oklahoma wanted to concentrate on sports fish and 0:18:56.560 --> 0:19:00.600 and and commercial fishing took away from sport fishing and 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:04.280 regardless of the species they ever taken or whatever. So 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:05.400 that's what they did. 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:06.840 What do you think, Brant? 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:10.040 I listened to this country life this week. You listened 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:13.200 to it this morning it came out, which when the 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:17.040 last friday when this comes out? But I dressed, I 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:19.280 had some I got some flak from people seeing the 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:22.800 rondo's nets on the river, and I thought, well, maybe 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:25.919 this guy's right, Maybe I am harming the resource. So 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.320 I called gaming fish, talked to the deputy director. He 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:34.280 put me with the two biologists, the large river biologists 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:38.320 and the commercial fishing biologist, and I posed a question, 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:41.840 is commercial fishing hurting the catfish and the rough fish 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:46.320 population in Arkansas? They said absolutely not, So you would 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:50.159 not believe the number of fish in that river. You know, 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:53.359 they can estimate and do surveys on the Little Red 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:55.760 and the White River and the Norfolk and they can 0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:58.760 get a estimate, a good estimate of the number of 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:02.240 fish pro mile oh in that but they there's no 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:05.960 way that said, they absolutely became even estimate how many 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:09.359 catfish there are on the Arkansas River. So if the 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:11.639 resource is there and it's plentiful and it's not hurting, 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:14.320 I'm all about it. I also talked to a commercial 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:19.600 fish fisherman, and it was in last week's podcast about 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:23.080 he said, you know, you do what you want to. 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:24.960 I'm quoting him. This is a guy that I was 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:27.560 just inundating with questions when when Tim and I were 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:29.639 starting to do this, and he said, you do what 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:33.720 you want to. You catch those big females, the egg 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:37.280 laden females, he said, throw them back, he said, because 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:41.000 that's they're literally throwing money back in water. But they're 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:44.080 also invested in the future of that, Yeah, of what's 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:44.639 going on out. 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:47.120 Yeah, and as guides. 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:52.240 Is a is a commercial guide fly fishing. 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:55.680 God as gods, we're we're the biggest conservationists on the river. 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:55.960 Man. 0:20:56.400 --> 0:20:57.919 Yeah, you're about six too, aren't you. 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:05.120 Because there's no face there, there's no well exactly. 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:12.440 We did a really robust series last summer on the 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:17.280 Mississippi River, and I talked with doctor Jack Kilgore, who 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:20.280 is a fisheries biologist for the lower He's like the 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:23.359 big dog for like the last as I understood it, 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:26.240 the last thousand miles of the Mississippi River for the 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:30.640 corb engineers fisheries biologists. When I sat down with him, 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:34.200 I expected him to tell me that the Mississippi River 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:37.720 was imperiled and that the fish populations were struggling, and 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:42.080 it was the sewer of America and the agricultural runoff 0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:45.920 and pesticides and chemicals. I just expected this like dire 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:48.679 story and had no knowledge of it. I was. I 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:52.600 was in utter shock when doctor Kilgore was like the 0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:57.919 fishery of the Mississippi River, he said, is incredible. The 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:01.640 fisheries are incredible, except for invasive carp. There's problems, invasive 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:04.399 carp being of the biggest one. But he said that 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:07.959 basically the catfish, even with commercial fishing on the Mississippi River, 0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:11.840 is an unexploited resource at this point and partly it's 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:16.560 because now if there were fifteen thousand commercial fishmen in Arkansas, 0:22:16.640 --> 0:22:20.840 I don't know how many permits they sell, you know. 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:22.760 It's thousands less than it used to be. 0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:25.600 Yeah, yeah, so I mean like fire attrician or by 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:27.359