Speaker 1: My name is Clay Nukleman. This is a production of
Speaker 1: the bear Grease podcast called The bear Grease Render, where
Speaker 1: we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes
Speaker 1: of the actual bear Grease podcast, presented by f h
Speaker 1: F Gear, American Maid, purpose built hunting and fishing gear
Speaker 1: that's designed to be as rugged as the place as
Speaker 1: we explore. Hit it, Christian, that sounds famil. Do you
Speaker 1: know that song?
Speaker 2: BRep?
Speaker 1: Yeah sounds good. All right, Joe, Welcome Christian. Good to
Speaker 1: have you. Man, Hey, welcome to the beargreash Render. This
Speaker 1: is a monumental day. Monumental day we have. We have
Speaker 1: an incredible room full of guests. I've got Gary Believer
Speaker 1: new come here to my right. Good to see you Dad.
Speaker 1: Where does Believer hat? Yeah, that's like that's like me like, uh, it's.
Speaker 3: Like Michael Jordan wearing Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like Michael Jordan's wearing is m j you know,
Speaker 1: like spreading out for the dunk. Welcome, Dad, thank you.
Speaker 1: I'll introduce our guests. Last have Josh Lambridge Spilmmaker here
Speaker 1: to the left.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 1: We have Brent Reeves of this Country Life wearing his
Speaker 1: overall is looking good as usual I've never want Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you were.
Speaker 3: Well, we're the ones that are nice and broke into yep,
Speaker 3: every I got like seventh pair of them.
Speaker 2: They're all will What is it?
Speaker 1: Is there a strategy one for every day?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Oh yeah, if you have a Sunday.
Speaker 1: You don't watch them every day. I know that's a lie.
Speaker 2: No, Lexis does takes them right down to the creek,
Speaker 2: the old rock down there that gal's working.
Speaker 1: Well, good to have you, Brent. Our our guest today,
Speaker 1: who uh, Lieutenant Joe Alexander, Yes, Sir, Oklahoma Department of
Speaker 1: Wildlife game Warden. Good to have you back. You're on
Speaker 1: the last render.
Speaker 5: Glad to be here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was, it's it's been. Uh it was a
Speaker 1: lot of fun last time. And uh kind of our
Speaker 1: guest of honor today, I don't know about that. Well,
Speaker 1: you're you're our guest of honor for sure. Is retired
Speaker 1: Oklahoma game Warden Jeff Brown.
Speaker 4: Who was good to be here.
Speaker 1: Who was the star of the Last Burgeris podcast.
Speaker 4: You know there again if you want to call it that, yeah.
Speaker 1: That's what we call it. That's what we can Jeff
Speaker 1: the star.
Speaker 4: And my uh my wife's getting a kick out of it.
Speaker 1: I know that did she What did she think? Did she?
Speaker 3: She?
Speaker 4: She likes it? And uh the part there at the
Speaker 4: at the leading end of that he said something about
Speaker 4: legendary Oklahoma law man in the Sooner state or something,
Speaker 4: and she guff aled And she's still she's still laughing
Speaker 4: about it. But I played it back and forth several times.
Speaker 3: She's like's gonna start rolling in.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I guess I need to. I need to
Speaker 1: solve something like right off the bat I had somebody.
Speaker 1: So far, the only complaint I've heard about the podcast
Speaker 1: is that I called Oklahoma the Midwest. So so I'm
Speaker 1: asking the Oklahoma's in the room. Is Oklahoma the Midwest?
Speaker 5: You know, it could be the Midwest, it's you know,
Speaker 5: maybe central I don't know, you know, we're part of
Speaker 5: the Central Flyway.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's it's kind of it's kind of the
Speaker 4: it's uh, it's part of the Southwest. It's part of
Speaker 4: the South, it's part of the southeast. Part of the
Speaker 4: Midwest's kind of in the center. It could it's the
Speaker 4: either the say.
Speaker 1: That qualifies for it being in the Midwest.
Speaker 2: Geographical center of the United States in Oklahoma.
Speaker 1: It's in Kansas, Kansas. The geographic center of the US
Speaker 1: is is a town kind of like in I think
Speaker 1: it's central to West Kansas. Don't quote me on the
Speaker 1: West Kansas, but it's definitely in Kansas. Do you know
Speaker 1: where the center of them? Okay, completely unrelated, but related
Speaker 1: to geography and the center of ranges. I learned something
Speaker 1: this week. If you were to pick where the absolute
Speaker 1: dead center geographic center in North America of the Black
Speaker 1: Bear Range would be, what state is the center of
Speaker 1: the Black Bear Range in North America?
Speaker 2: Arkansas?
Speaker 1: Good quick, that's what I thought, deep in my heart,
Speaker 1: I would say Missouri, Missouri.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Tennessee, Tennessee.
Speaker 1: Okay, any guesses, I'll give you a hint. We're underestimating
Speaker 1: the size of Canada. Minnesota.
Speaker 2: Minnesota.
Speaker 1: Minnesota is the dead center. Like think about Alaska, Oh yeah, Florida,
Speaker 1: New Brunswick and Newfoundland, all the way into Old Mexico,
Speaker 1: all the way to up to like almost to the
Speaker 1: to none of it, I mean, black Bear Ranger doesn't
Speaker 1: go that far. But yeah, Minnesota. I was surprised that
Speaker 1: you don't think of Minnesota as central to anything. But
Speaker 1: when you but the North American continent and black Bear
Speaker 1: Range it is.
Speaker 2: That's good.
Speaker 4: Yeah, big, That would make it about the geographical center
Speaker 4: of North America itself, because black Bear Range, with little exception,
Speaker 4: is just about North America exactly.
Speaker 1: It covers a lot of Yeah, it covers a lot
Speaker 1: of it.
Speaker 2: For sure.
Speaker 5: I'd consider Oklahoma the hub of America.
Speaker 2: There we go.
Speaker 1: You have the right to think that he's also toting
Speaker 1: the gun, so that we'll take his word for that.
Speaker 1: We uh, yeah, we over just a little bit further east.
Speaker 1: Think it's kind of over here. But no, Jeff, when
Speaker 1: did you retire?
Speaker 4: It in? I retired last October October of twenty three.
Speaker 1: And you started in eighty five, eighty five, So how
Speaker 1: many years now?
Speaker 4: Thirty eight thirty eight years and one month?
Speaker 1: When when you when you retired? Was it?
Speaker 4: Was?
Speaker 1: It difficult?
Speaker 2: It was.
Speaker 4: Being a game warden I lived. That was my life
Speaker 4: and my family's life. That's what we did. I did
Speaker 4: it on a daily basis, but but my family was
Speaker 4: directly affected by it on a daily basis.
Speaker 1: And uh, and by that you mean just like being
Speaker 1: on call twenty four.
Speaker 4: Being on call, it's it's uh, it's a way of life.
Speaker 4: It's not a job. It's a way of life. It's
Speaker 4: a lifestyle, and we lived it, and so naturally when
Speaker 4: I just threw a light switch and one day I
Speaker 4: wasn't anymore, Joe drove me to Oklahoma City my last
Speaker 4: day and and turned all my stuff in and on
Speaker 4: the way home. You know, one minute I was one,
Speaker 4: the next minute I'm not. It took some getting used to,
Speaker 4: and I'm getting used to it, but it did. It
Speaker 4: hurt for a few months. And uh, but I'm I
Speaker 4: didn't miss the phone being tied to the phone twenty
Speaker 4: four to seven, but even that got got Uh. It
Speaker 4: was hard to get used to because I was constantly
Speaker 4: looking at my phone waiting for it to go off. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and and it took me a while to talk myself
Speaker 4: and I didn't have to do that anymore. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 4: but it was It was a great It was a
Speaker 4: great career, great life. I loved it. I lived at
Speaker 4: I was ready. I was I was ready to quit.
Speaker 4: I outlived my usefulness.
Speaker 1: So now, Brent, you were tired about the same time,
Speaker 1: same month, did y'all? Did y'all? I guess you hadn't met.
Speaker 1: We had the same party, are at the same party.
Speaker 1: It seems like a pretty good strategy to uh on
Speaker 1: your undercover work to retire.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Probably, it is a great it's a very you
Speaker 2: don't think about it when it's all going on, but
Speaker 2: then one day, just like Joe said, you wake up
Speaker 2: and you're just like the guy next door. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 2: kind of weird.
Speaker 1: Yeah, now, Joe, you and Jeff worked together pretty closely
Speaker 1: for years, is that right?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that would be That would be an understatement.
Speaker 5: There's a we go back a long ways. In fact,
Speaker 5: I wouldn't be here for worn't for him. As far
Speaker 5: as game arden work goes, I can the first time
Speaker 5: when Jeff moved to to the county that that I
Speaker 5: grew up in. That's kind of what introduced me, you know,
Speaker 5: to to him and game warden work.
Speaker 1: Before you work for the department.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, when I was a kid.
Speaker 1: Oh really, So yeah, you've known.
Speaker 4: I've known Joe since he was in high school. It's
Speaker 4: not before. Yeah, And uh I knew his dad. His
Speaker 4: dad was a hunter education instructor for me. Uh I
Speaker 4: say for me, he was a volunteer hunter instructor that
Speaker 4: would help me and and do classes for me and
Speaker 4: with me. And got to know Joe through him, and yeah,
Speaker 4: and Joe got into law enforcement and and uh we
Speaker 4: joke and it's kind of a kid, but he was
Speaker 4: my deputy for a long time before whoever was a
Speaker 4: game arder.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's kind of a unique story, but you know,
Speaker 5: it's it's just kind of the way it played out.
Speaker 5: I started out law enforcement as a police officer, and
Speaker 5: I wound up deciding that wasn't for me. And but
Speaker 5: I enjoyed law enforcement. I enjoyed hunting and fee I thought, well,
Speaker 5: what's the best bet? You know, got the visiting with
Speaker 5: Jeff about it and decided, you know, game boarding, that's
Speaker 5: a perfect fit. So I had to go back to
Speaker 5: college to get all that time of squared away and
Speaker 5: then you know it just everything worked out that I
Speaker 5: became a game warden later on and the rest is history.
Speaker 5: We spent a long time together, even before, like you said,
Speaker 5: before I was a game boarding officially.
Speaker 1: So yeah, when did you start?
Speaker 5: I started in uh six?
Speaker 2: O six? Yeah, O six?
Speaker 1: Excellent, dad. Do you have any advice for for Brent
Speaker 1: and Jeff on retirement? You're kind of a pro.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when'd you retire ten years ago?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Thirteen thirteen, Yeah, twenty thirteen. Oheen.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, well you know, just LOLLI dag all you can, man,
Speaker 6: because it's coming to an end pretty quick.
Speaker 1: Well on that note, yeah, pretty good advice. So today,
Speaker 1: would you say, you know, in the in the episode, Jeff,
Speaker 1: you emphasized how much it's like paddlefish was king over
Speaker 1: in terms of enforcement and what you guys are doing
Speaker 1: that was like high on the list. Is that is
Speaker 1: that still the way it is?
Speaker 4: It is at least as of October it was, you know,
Speaker 4: and I was the district captain for several years. For
Speaker 4: eighteen years, I was a district captain, and so I
Speaker 4: got to dictate some of what was important and what wasn't. Yeah,
Speaker 4: but but yes, paddlefish is very important, like we've talked
Speaker 4: about before, because of the uniqueness and the opportunity to
Speaker 4: to uh over exploit and so so you know, deer
Speaker 4: I went to work back in eighty five and we
Speaker 4: were still growing our deer herd. We were still growing
Speaker 4: our turkey herd, our turkey flock. I'm sorry, but those
Speaker 4: things for most part been taken care of. You know,
Speaker 4: Deer here to stay. Paddlefish is something that is there
Speaker 4: again is unique and and and extremely valuable not only
Speaker 4: sport fishery, but also on a commercial side. And it
Speaker 4: deserves a lot of protection. And that's what it got
Speaker 4: from us.
Speaker 1: It's interesting to hear you've put it like that that, uh,
Speaker 1: these species that are recovering might receive more attention early on.
Speaker 1: Is that what you're saying about? Like with deer turkeys
Speaker 1: in the eighties and nineties.
Speaker 4: When when when we were still growing the deer herd
Speaker 4: in Oklahoma, Man, that was something we really worked hard on.
Speaker 4: You worked on hard on deer poachers and and uh
Speaker 4: and things like that because that was important. But the
Speaker 4: deer herd has recovered not only in Oklahoma but the
Speaker 4: whole United States for the most part. Same way with turkeys. Now,
Speaker 4: turkeys may be on a kind of down right now,
Speaker 4: but they'll be back. You know. We used to trap,
Speaker 4: trap and transplant turkeys in Oklahoma, and I got in
Speaker 4: on some of that, and then all of a sudden,
Speaker 4: you know, they said, we don't need to do anymore
Speaker 4: because if there's not turkeys there now, there will never
Speaker 4: be turkeys there. So that reintroduction was complete. Well, and
Speaker 4: so yeah, you move, you moved from one species to
Speaker 4: the other depending on on on what's going on with
Speaker 4: that species at the time. And uh, paddlefish was the
Speaker 4: same way. You know, it was commercial fish in Oklahoma
Speaker 4: back in the day, and caviar wasn't a thing then
Speaker 4: and we phased out.
Speaker 3: Just commercially fished for the meat.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and and and even then, what the commercial fishermen
Speaker 4: were fishing for, we're rough fish, flathead, Uh, some carp species, suckers.
Speaker 4: Paddlefish was not even not not utilized that much.
Speaker 1: I bet you, I bet they can make some good
Speaker 1: fish sticks out of paddlefish.
Speaker 4: You know, the best, the best paddlefish meat that I've
Speaker 4: had with smoked it. It can be real uh chicken
Speaker 4: like in its texture. It's not flaky. It can be
Speaker 4: pretty uh stringy for lack of a better word. And
Speaker 4: smoked it was pretty good. I don't care that much
Speaker 4: for it any other way. If you take it out
Speaker 4: of the water and put it into grease, it's good.
Speaker 1: Just quick.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's fresh, it's good, but you put it on
Speaker 4: you put it in the freezer and want to thought
Speaker 4: out and cook it later. Not so much. That's been
Speaker 4: my experience.
Speaker 1: Is anybody slight digression, Does anybody think it's a little
Speaker 1: suspicious that.
Speaker 3: Brent.
Speaker 1: When did you get your commercial fishing license in Arkansas?
Speaker 4: Brent?
Speaker 2: This year?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, just like a few months ago. Yep, right
Speaker 1: when you kind of learned about powlefish eggs.
Speaker 2: It's always something I see where this is going. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: how long we've been friends.
Speaker 1: They part of what we had to we it was
Speaker 1: it was in the it was in the episode. But uh, Christian,
Speaker 1: get your band you're ready. It was in the episode.
Speaker 1: But how a lot of these guys were taking paddlefish
Speaker 1: eggs out of Oklahoma and bringing them into Arkansas because
Speaker 1: it was the closest state where you could legally sell
Speaker 1: paddlefish eggs. They were smuggling it. I just I don't know.
Speaker 1: I just I don't even have that license. I don't
Speaker 1: have a road taker's license.
Speaker 3: Well then probably there's a road taker's license.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh really with a commercial fishing Arkansas separate deal altogether.
Speaker 2: I don't have it.
Speaker 7: I don't have that, Okay, yeah, yeah, Dad, did you
Speaker 7: know Brentson commercial fisherman?
Speaker 1: Did you know that? I changed in my phone? I
Speaker 1: changed his uh his phone number to uh to uh
Speaker 1: hold on, wait for it. It's worth it guys commercial,
Speaker 1: I can't say the bag.
Speaker 5: I seen him run that.
Speaker 1: Look it says, uh, commercial fisherman, Brent Reeves, that's who
Speaker 1: is used to Yeah. I used to say, cameraman, change
Speaker 1: it to commercial fishermen. Yeah, well, I totally hijacked your story.
Speaker 4: Well, and kind of what he was talking about right there,
Speaker 4: We didn't have commercial fishing in Oklahoma. It was phased
Speaker 4: out over time. Now, in the first episode of all this,
Speaker 4: there may have been may been some confusion. Yeah, some
Speaker 4: people could have been confused, because yes, commercial fishing in
Speaker 4: Oklahoma was outlawed in the in the late seventies, mid
Speaker 4: to late seventies, but it was phased out over time.
Speaker 4: So Billy Wishard was still commercial fishing even though it
Speaker 4: was illegal in most parts. He was still commercial fishing
Speaker 4: in the Grand Lake legally, legally in the late eighties,
Speaker 4: early nineties, or he was associated with commercial fishermen in
Speaker 4: lake because they outlawed it and then, but they just
Speaker 4: didn't pull the plug on everybody's livelihood. So when when
Speaker 4: this commercial fisherman would either get out of business or
Speaker 4: pass away or whatever, that license for that lake was
Speaker 4: never renewed. So now that lake has closed well, it
Speaker 4: took several years to get around and Grand Lake was
Speaker 4: the last lake to be CLOSEDO good way, I understand it.
Speaker 4: And there was still legal commercial fishing on Grand Lake
Speaker 4: into the late eighties early nineties.
Speaker 1: Now, why would a state. It actually was news to
Speaker 1: me that not every state had a commercial fishing you know,
Speaker 1: people could be it just because in Arkansas, I just
Speaker 1: always knew there were commercial fishermen that were fishing the
Speaker 1: rivers and whatnot is what's the agency's philosophy on not
Speaker 1: having commercial fishermen? I mean they just literally taken putting
Speaker 1: too much tax on the resource for the management plan.
Speaker 4: Yeah, probably a combination of that. I don't know that.
Speaker 4: I don't know a hard and fast answer to that,
Speaker 4: but it kind of goes back to one of the
Speaker 4: conversations we had that wildlife is a public a public resource,
Speaker 4: and if even if one person is benefiting from it,
Speaker 4: it's short changing everybody else. Uh. And there again, anytime
Speaker 4: anytime there's money involve, anytime anytime there's commercial, anytime there's
Speaker 4: money involved, and with wildlife, wildlife loses. Even though there
Speaker 4: are legal and good commercial fishermen, there's also that element
Speaker 4: that's not and that happens that that's also true in
Speaker 4: in guides, fishing guides, hunting guides, anything in the wildlife. Buess,
Speaker 4: you got you got good people, but then you got
Speaker 4: unscrupulous ones over here. If I can say that word
Speaker 4: that that makes it hard on everybody else. Uh. I
Speaker 4: don't know the exact answer. The direct answer to that is,
Speaker 4: but mostly Oklahoma wanted to concentrate on sports fish and
Speaker 4: and and commercial fishing took away from sport fishing and
Speaker 4: regardless of the species they ever taken or whatever. So
Speaker 4: that's what they did.
Speaker 1: What do you think, Brant?
Speaker 2: I listened to this country life this week. You listened
Speaker 2: to it this morning it came out, which when the
Speaker 2: last friday when this comes out? But I dressed, I
Speaker 2: had some I got some flak from people seeing the
Speaker 2: rondo's nets on the river, and I thought, well, maybe
Speaker 2: this guy's right, Maybe I am harming the resource. So
Speaker 2: I called gaming fish, talked to the deputy director. He
Speaker 2: put me with the two biologists, the large river biologists
Speaker 2: and the commercial fishing biologist, and I posed a question,
Speaker 2: is commercial fishing hurting the catfish and the rough fish
Speaker 2: population in Arkansas? They said absolutely not, So you would
Speaker 2: not believe the number of fish in that river. You know,
Speaker 2: they can estimate and do surveys on the Little Red
Speaker 2: and the White River and the Norfolk and they can
Speaker 2: get a estimate, a good estimate of the number of
Speaker 2: fish pro mile oh in that but they there's no
Speaker 2: way that said, they absolutely became even estimate how many
Speaker 2: catfish there are on the Arkansas River. So if the
Speaker 2: resource is there and it's plentiful and it's not hurting,
Speaker 2: I'm all about it. I also talked to a commercial
Speaker 2: fish fisherman, and it was in last week's podcast about
Speaker 2: he said, you know, you do what you want to.
Speaker 2: I'm quoting him. This is a guy that I was
Speaker 2: just inundating with questions when when Tim and I were
Speaker 2: starting to do this, and he said, you do what
Speaker 2: you want to. You catch those big females, the egg
Speaker 2: laden females, he said, throw them back, he said, because
Speaker 2: that's they're literally throwing money back in water. But they're
Speaker 2: also invested in the future of that, Yeah, of what's
Speaker 2: going on out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and as guides.
Speaker 1: Is a is a commercial guide fly fishing.
Speaker 3: God as gods, we're we're the biggest conservationists on the river.
Speaker 2: Man.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're about six too, aren't you.
Speaker 2: Because there's no face there, there's no well exactly.
Speaker 1: We did a really robust series last summer on the
Speaker 1: Mississippi River, and I talked with doctor Jack Kilgore, who
Speaker 1: is a fisheries biologist for the lower He's like the
Speaker 1: big dog for like the last as I understood it,
Speaker 1: the last thousand miles of the Mississippi River for the
Speaker 1: corb engineers fisheries biologists. When I sat down with him,
Speaker 1: I expected him to tell me that the Mississippi River
Speaker 1: was imperiled and that the fish populations were struggling, and
Speaker 1: it was the sewer of America and the agricultural runoff
Speaker 1: and pesticides and chemicals. I just expected this like dire
Speaker 1: story and had no knowledge of it. I was. I
Speaker 1: was in utter shock when doctor Kilgore was like the
Speaker 1: fishery of the Mississippi River, he said, is incredible. The
Speaker 1: fisheries are incredible, except for invasive carp. There's problems, invasive
Speaker 1: carp being of the biggest one. But he said that
Speaker 1: basically the catfish, even with commercial fishing on the Mississippi River,
Speaker 1: is an unexploited resource at this point and partly it's
Speaker 1: because now if there were fifteen thousand commercial fishmen in Arkansas,
Speaker 1: I don't know how many permits they sell, you know.
Speaker 2: It's thousands less than it used to be.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so I mean like fire attrician or by
Speaker 3: design attrician.
Speaker 1: Farm raised cat Yeah, there's no limit on it. Like
Speaker 1: farm raised catfish has impacted you know, just people buying fish.
Speaker 1: And then it was undetermined whether people are eating less
Speaker 1: catfish and river fish than they used to. But I
Speaker 1: bet they, I bet they are eating less.
Speaker 2: It's also hard, you know, yeah, it ain't easy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, anyway, just there's no conclusion of that
Speaker 1: other than I was surprised to hear how.
Speaker 4: Something THATSS have made. It just popped into my head.
Speaker 4: It may have something else to do about it, do
Speaker 4: with it. Back in the day, you had more of
Speaker 4: a rule America who was willing to eat rough fish, flathead,
Speaker 4: channel cat carp suckers. Not so much anymore because those
Speaker 4: fish are all have a distinctive wild caught flavor, and
Speaker 4: some of it you have to be fish hungry, you
Speaker 4: to want it, you know, to be ableeded. So there
Speaker 4: may not be that much call for wild caught some
Speaker 4: fish proseas just because of the demographic and society has changed.
Speaker 4: I don't know that that just kind of makes sense
Speaker 4: to me.
Speaker 1: That was my kind of what I was thinking, as
Speaker 1: well as that maybe there's just less market for it,
Speaker 1: because I mean, I think if people could make a
Speaker 1: living commercial fishing where it's legal, they would. I mean,
Speaker 1: I know one thing.
Speaker 2: You can't go to home depot with a hoop net
Speaker 2: propped up in the back of your truck without somebody
Speaker 2: stopping you and say, hey, you got any fish for sale?
Speaker 2: Because that has happened to me more than one occasion.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 5: We keep it on that when we said, what did
Speaker 5: y'all call that a clue? Yeah, that was a clue.
Speaker 1: If Brent, if Brent, we're in the state of Oklahoma
Speaker 1: with a hoop net in this truck, would that be bad?
Speaker 4: It would draw attention?
Speaker 1: It would yeah, Yeah, be careful how you drive home
Speaker 1: at night.
Speaker 2: I go through Oklahoma only a lot.
Speaker 1: No, I didn't know. I guess. I guess having a
Speaker 1: hoop net in your truck would show intent to fish.
Speaker 2: It would it would?
Speaker 5: Yeah, But you know that that population and the fish
Speaker 5: population in Mississippi River, it's it's in good shape and unexplorted. Now,
Speaker 5: but wait till that. Tim and Brent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if we ever figured out how to catch the man,
Speaker 1: tell us tell us about that hoop net needle that
Speaker 1: you can.
Speaker 2: You Yeah, I can tell you about it. I'm gonna
Speaker 2: do some stuff on it. But yeah, my brother was
Speaker 2: going through some of my dad's stuff and found that
Speaker 2: I net needle that was carved out of hickory. And
Speaker 2: you can see the knife marks on there. And it
Speaker 2: wasn't our dad's, but it had to have been either,
Speaker 2: and it wouldn't have been my grandfather's. It would have
Speaker 2: had to been like my great grandfathers or beyond that
Speaker 2: because there was some net fishing. I mean it was
Speaker 2: unrestricted back in the day, but they did some net
Speaker 2: fishing and stuff. Now my dad never did do it,
Speaker 2: but it's there's no telling how old that thing is.
Speaker 2: This probably goes back five or six generations and it's
Speaker 2: it's pretty cool. And he found that going through some
Speaker 2: stuff the other day and gave it to me.
Speaker 1: So it's a wooden I'd never seen one, but it's
Speaker 1: a it's a it's a wooden tool about this big
Speaker 1: yep that's about it's about carved from a single piece
Speaker 1: of hickory.
Speaker 2: It's about ten inches long.
Speaker 1: And it's it's it's hard to even describe it.
Speaker 2: It looks like a it looks like a long folsom
Speaker 2: point yeah, and uh ain't that's the ones that cut
Speaker 2: the flutes on the side of it, right, it's shaped,
Speaker 2: it's shaped like that. And I mean, these guys know
Speaker 2: what a net needle looks like. But I'll you wrap
Speaker 2: your string around and it's got a it's it's hollow
Speaker 2: on the end, like a like a church steeple. It's hollering.
Speaker 2: It's got a point a pegsticking in it, and that's
Speaker 2: where you'd wrap the string around. And then as you
Speaker 2: did the I think it's called the flying Dutchman knot
Speaker 2: that you tie nets together with. It feeds off of that,
Speaker 2: off of that needle, and that's how it works. It's
Speaker 2: really cool, very cool. Well, uh, dad, have you ever
Speaker 2: had caviar?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: No, not.
Speaker 6: I probably have as old as I am, But just
Speaker 6: for that, I don't want any of I'll be honest
Speaker 6: with you. If you know we're gonna eat caviar, y'all,
Speaker 6: might I mean I'll probably taste of it. I'm just
Speaker 6: not much. You know, if it's not peanut butter and jelly,
Speaker 6: I don't go for it.
Speaker 2: Yeah you go us.
Speaker 1: Wait, you had fried caviar on the Christian Have you
Speaker 1: ever read caviar?
Speaker 4: I don't know what you can call fried egg fish
Speaker 4: eggs caviar, that's what we called it. I think that's
Speaker 4: just fish eggs.
Speaker 1: Lieutenant Joe, have you had had you? Have you had
Speaker 1: caviar before?
Speaker 2: Yes? I have?
Speaker 1: Are you a fan?
Speaker 5: Well, you know it goes back to.
Speaker 3: That chose a refined kind of guy.
Speaker 5: And you know, I'm looking for that mirror war or.
Speaker 1: Taste of the ocean church combined into a beautiful poetry
Speaker 1: that in the mouth with a burst of the I
Speaker 1: wish we had that guy from California here.
Speaker 3: I have to shout out to Alan Morris with sterling caviar. Yeah,
Speaker 3: he did send us some some wow, some sturgeon white
Speaker 3: sturgeon caviar for us to try.
Speaker 1: Well, let's let's look at it. Okay, Christian hit us
Speaker 1: with a banjo lick. We got here hit it Christian celebration,
Speaker 1: that's what you say, sek. So this is how the
Speaker 1: caviar comes. It comes, and it's they overnight it. Wherever
Speaker 1: it's wherever it's going, they overnight it. Now, where has
Speaker 1: it been since? It wasn't overnighted last night?
Speaker 2: It was, it's been a refrigerator.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'll eat fresh caviar.
Speaker 3: Well it's as fresh as you're going to get.
Speaker 1: Okay, So now let's let's do a little review here
Speaker 1: before we get going. So it was really interesting to
Speaker 1: me to learn about the history of caviar in in
Speaker 1: Eastern Europe and the Europe. I mean, like how they
Speaker 1: had these rich sturgeon filled rivers and you can imagine
Speaker 1: when the population was put your lid back on. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is going to take a while, gentlemen. I happened
Speaker 1: to be a caviar expert. No, but you know when
Speaker 1: the poppy, you know, a thousand years ago, the population
Speaker 1: of Europe would have been way lower than it is,
Speaker 1: and you get you get the idea that they could
Speaker 1: pull a lot of resource from those rivers and not
Speaker 1: affect populations as much. And this lady we listened to
Speaker 1: a podcast. There's a book about the history of caviar.
Speaker 1: We tried to get the lady on our podcast and
Speaker 1: she wouldn't come.
Speaker 2: She was not real cooperative.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she uh, wonderful, wonderful lady, but wouldn't was unable
Speaker 1: to come on our podcast too. Yeah, and uh but
Speaker 1: from listening to her some of her stuff, she she Wow,
Speaker 1: was she the one that said caviar was as common
Speaker 1: as butter at some points in time? Like it was
Speaker 1: just something that like it was the common person ate caviar.
Speaker 3: There's actually a movie, a Russian movie from nineteen sixty
Speaker 3: two where this this this Soviet military guy is sent
Speaker 3: to this kind of remote area and he's sitting in
Speaker 3: front of a mixing bowl full of caviar and he's
Speaker 3: just complaining about having to eat caviar.
Speaker 1: So so the way it became so popular and ingrained
Speaker 1: in the culture ended up being this this symbol of
Speaker 1: luxury and wealth, was that at one time it was
Speaker 1: like common food, like everybody ate it. It was just food.
Speaker 2: There's a lady that works with a Lexus and she
Speaker 2: immigrated with her family from from Russia and she said that.
Speaker 2: I asked her the other day, I said, you like
Speaker 2: do you like it? She said, oh, yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2: That's what's the difference in it? She said, Well, the
Speaker 2: elite people eat black caviar and the rest of us
Speaker 2: eat red.
Speaker 1: Oh is that right, black and red caviar, that's what
Speaker 1: she said. Huh, I'm a I'm a black caviar man.
Speaker 4: But you know, these Eastern Europeans that we dealt with
Speaker 4: a lot in operation Russian Snag also made caviar out
Speaker 4: of other fish species.
Speaker 1: Oh really, what were they tapping into?
Speaker 4: Yeah, you mentioned like three or four Yeah, some they
Speaker 4: did a lot of what's that salmon? In Colorado still
Speaker 4: had no cutthroat.
Speaker 1: Silver salmon caviar.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, but they made red cab are at of
Speaker 4: different salmon species type fish because we would, as we
Speaker 4: would catch some of them, confiscate some of their tackle
Speaker 4: and stuff. Also in this tackle was was little snagging tackle.
Speaker 4: We'd ask them what that was for, and that was
Speaker 4: the the species or whatever they were trying to take
Speaker 4: in Colorado, which I think it was. It was legal
Speaker 4: in some instances some way they could do it. But yeah,
Speaker 4: they utilized other fish species too.
Speaker 2: They said in an article I read the other day
Speaker 2: about Arkansas that they would use both ins grintl Yeah,
Speaker 2: you can buy both fen paddlefish and then sturgeon. But
Speaker 2: there was like you said, it was like three or
Speaker 2: four on the list. What are the middle too?
Speaker 1: Well, it's different types of stur.
Speaker 4: Different types of sturgeon, I got you. Yeah, yeah, that
Speaker 4: you mentioned in both end. Yeah, you can buy both
Speaker 4: in caviar in caviar shots. But that goes back to
Speaker 4: the both in is a prehistoric species of fish also, right,
Speaker 4: so there's a common denominator. There is this similar to sturgeon.
Speaker 4: I've never seen it today.
Speaker 1: Now we have sturgeon in our rivers in this part
Speaker 1: of the world.
Speaker 5: Is that is that true Arkansas?
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they're not they're not showing those sturgeon here.
Speaker 1: They get big. I mean, why are people illegally catching
Speaker 1: sturgeon for that caviar.
Speaker 4: They don't get big like they do in the Snake
Speaker 4: River up in the Northwest. That's a different sturgeon. These
Speaker 4: these are small sturgeon. They're I don't know.
Speaker 3: That if there is abundant, No, they're really get since
Speaker 3: that in Europe, those sturgeon are big.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I think they're like the surgeon. They're like
Speaker 4: the sturgeon in the in the Snake Rivers. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's why they hundreds of pounds. They had
Speaker 1: these huge eggsacts and tons of eggs and why they
Speaker 1: could harvest so much. Back to the story just for
Speaker 1: anybody that had missed it in the podcast. So the
Speaker 1: sturgeon was just like common. It was this common thing
Speaker 1: that people ate. And then it became it started to
Speaker 1: become this way I understood the timeline. It became more
Speaker 1: of a limited resources as populations increased, as sturgeon populations
Speaker 1: began to be exploited. And this took place like over
Speaker 1: hundreds of years. And then that's when what do you see.
Speaker 2: Five pounds was the largest chiven old sturgeon caught in Arkansas.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, so it wouldn't have that many eggs. And
Speaker 1: then and then that's when the churches they were they
Speaker 1: were asking people to fast from meat, the Orthodox churches,
Speaker 1: and that's when they made a decision at some point
Speaker 1: and sometime and they said, well, you can't eat meat
Speaker 1: on this religious fast, but you can't eat caviar. And
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, it was like caviar just became
Speaker 1: the thing because people could eat it and still meet
Speaker 1: these religious rituals. And then I think the rivers became
Speaker 1: exploited and all of a sudden it grew into this
Speaker 1: thing where just the wealthy had it and had access
Speaker 1: to it. And then now, what I asked Keith when
Speaker 1: I was with him and it was on the episode,
Speaker 1: was it seems like this stuff would translate into our
Speaker 1: culture if it was that big a deal. Like, I'm
Speaker 1: still a little bit surprised that like Midwestern and Southern
Speaker 1: America places where there are paddlefish, I'm surprised that we're
Speaker 1: not pumped about paddlefish caviart.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we're eating gizzards and livers. Yeah, everything, it.
Speaker 4: Isn't I think it is an acquired taste. The right
Speaker 4: reasons Europeans like it was that they've been raised on it. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it'd be just like us going to northern Alaska and
Speaker 4: eating seal blubber probably would find it terrible, but the
Speaker 4: the natives up there love it. Culture, it's a cultural thing.
Speaker 2: I had a guy I put a video on my
Speaker 2: Instagram by cooking a cuckoo coon and he said, my gosh, man,
Speaker 2: what's next squirrels up?
Speaker 1: That was.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think you know what Keith said that. And
Speaker 5: when when you were talking to Keith about you know
Speaker 5: the people around here, they they see fish eggs laying
Speaker 5: on the ground. Yeah, you know, they they wouldn't even
Speaker 5: imagine trying to eat that fish eggs that somebody had
Speaker 5: cleaned their fish and thrown it back in the water
Speaker 5: and whatnot. Uh So it's it has to be culture.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 5: Throughout the throughout the years, we're you know, pretty much
Speaker 5: all the the regular common Joe's so to speak, the
Speaker 5: blue collar America. You know, they they weren't raised with caviar. Yeah,
Speaker 5: they didn't put caviar on top of their crackers and
Speaker 5: that sort of thing.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 5: They catfish, they had flathead right out of the river,
Speaker 5: you know, and they they weren't keeping.
Speaker 4: Even though even the upper crust people and Mid America,
Speaker 4: uh the more you know, wealth to do. We would
Speaker 4: have open house at the Paddlefish Center and would have
Speaker 4: fresh paddlefish, caviar, and and there were senators and legislators
Speaker 4: and wealthy business men they came to this and there
Speaker 4: was always caviar left over.
Speaker 1: Is that right?
Speaker 4: Even even even the upper echelon of people in the
Speaker 4: mid United States don't eat a lot of it. It's
Speaker 4: been my experience.
Speaker 3: Now, I really hyped myself up to like this caviar
Speaker 3: in there.
Speaker 4: You know, there's some people talk it up. I talk
Speaker 4: it down every chance I get. I do not like it.
Speaker 4: And I told you all to go why I don't
Speaker 4: like it and that, and it just tastes like rotten paddlefish.
Speaker 2: Man.
Speaker 1: One time I had uh m, I had whale whale.
Speaker 1: It's it's I can't remember the name. There's a there's
Speaker 1: a there's a term. It's like tartar.
Speaker 2: Uh But it was.
Speaker 1: It was a piece of it was beautiful. It was
Speaker 1: just like chunk of It didn't look like meat, but
Speaker 1: it was. It was a square like a big stick
Speaker 1: of butter, like imagine four sticks of butter stacked together.
Speaker 1: And there was a black line white dark black about
Speaker 1: the quarter of an inch, and then white like bear fat.
Speaker 1: And they took it and sliced it and it was
Speaker 1: literally whale skin and whale blubber. Yeah, and it was
Speaker 1: legally harvested by indigenous people in Alaska. And uh man,
Speaker 1: I put that in my mouth and it I didn't like.
Speaker 1: I mean, I wasn't going back for more. It was chewy,
Speaker 1: but I felt like that guy that was describing caviar.
Speaker 1: It felt like the ocean was in my mouth.
Speaker 2: Well, had you gone back from here? Here was probably
Speaker 2: plenty of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was beautiful, but it was it was wild,
Speaker 1: it was. It was just like now if I was
Speaker 1: if I was describing it like Hillbilly would describe it, say, boy,
Speaker 1: that's fishy, but it was. It was more complex than fishy.
Speaker 1: It was like I was tasting like coral reefs.
Speaker 3: And oysters, circle cold cold.
Speaker 1: Ice cold. Yeah yeah, yeah, that's probably the way people think.
Speaker 1: Would they eat a squirrel they never had it before.
Speaker 4: I don't see how that's possible, because squirrel is squirrels delicious, delicious,
Speaker 4: regardless of where you come from.
Speaker 2: For real.
Speaker 1: Well, let's so we have some cavea. Okay, I'm ready
Speaker 1: for the carry.
Speaker 2: Now she comes like in ice packs.
Speaker 1: I feel like we're getting a peeking through the lifestyles
Speaker 1: of the rich and famous.
Speaker 2: Yeah it is, this.
Speaker 1: Is what this is what happens. Yeah yeah, oh.
Speaker 2: No, here this here, this, Josh, what you need?
Speaker 4: You know. I always I always got the impression that
Speaker 4: that in the even in the United States as a whole,
Speaker 4: but especially in this part of the United States, that
Speaker 4: this caviar thing was just more of a status symbol
Speaker 4: type thing. Yeah, you eat a little bit of it,
Speaker 4: so you say you did, and that's what you were
Speaker 4: supposed to do. But in Europe, Eastern Europeans, it's completely opposite.
Speaker 4: They eat it for uh, like we would eat you know,
Speaker 4: take vitamins and stuff.
Speaker 2: Them.
Speaker 1: It's not like status and wealth and luxury. It's just
Speaker 1: like us going for play the barbecue.
Speaker 4: Oh absolutely, or you know the man, they were just gentlemen.
Speaker 1: Uh, I brought something.
Speaker 2: You mean, tyle that before. It's still it was time
Speaker 2: from the last time he.
Speaker 4: Wore last time.
Speaker 1: I felt this appro So I feel like you boys
Speaker 1: are a little underdressed.
Speaker 3: Okay, So we were ready for this big reveal here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it. Let's it.
Speaker 3: So this is this is almost four ounces of paddlefish caviar.
Speaker 2: How much that costs? This? I believe was one hundred
Speaker 2: and twenty five dollars.
Speaker 1: Really, yeah, let me see paddlefish caviar. There's no way
Speaker 1: that would have been from there's no legal way not
Speaker 1: gonna come from Oklahoma.
Speaker 4: That come out that probably come out of the Mississippi
Speaker 4: system somewhere.
Speaker 3: It says battlefish. What does it say on the side
Speaker 3: product or wild.
Speaker 2: Caught leopard frog? He says paddlefish wild us A And
Speaker 2: it's even got a sight ease.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh wow, how big are those eggs?
Speaker 2: Say?
Speaker 3: Those those are a number number four shot Probably they're.
Speaker 1: Smaller than I thought they would be.
Speaker 2: That'd be number.
Speaker 4: Keith.
Speaker 1: Keith went into a very detailed description of a shotgunshell
Speaker 1: size five maybe.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 1: When he was describing all the caviar of the world,
Speaker 1: it was pretty interested.
Speaker 2: Okay, what else?
Speaker 1: So how much is that that? That's about?
Speaker 3: That's about one hundred and twenty hundred and thirty dollars
Speaker 3: plus a lot of dollars to overnight it. Then our
Speaker 3: our friend Alan Morris Sterling Caviar sent us an equal
Speaker 3: dollar figure in in sturge of white sturgeon caviar only
Speaker 3: it's a quarter.
Speaker 1: Where where do white sturgeon live?
Speaker 3: They they they farmed them in their their aquaculture in California?
Speaker 2: Oh really?
Speaker 1: Is that a Is that a North American school that's
Speaker 1: with American species?
Speaker 3: They have some wild cat that people get in in
Speaker 3: California there.
Speaker 4: But but is getting you talk about you talk about
Speaker 4: these being uncle culture? Is that's another thing that that's
Speaker 4: happened to the caviar trade. Uh? Is that the Chinese
Speaker 4: is like to do everything else is farm raising their
Speaker 4: farm raising, et cetera, a type of Chinese paddlefish of
Speaker 4: some sort, kind of the Chinese equivalent.
Speaker 3: So that ten that tin of caviar has to have
Speaker 3: a key, really be able to open it.
Speaker 1: I think Christian for him to play a little banjo
Speaker 1: music while you open your caviar, and then and then
Speaker 1: like one minute long song when he opens it.
Speaker 3: Most importantly, we have our genuine mother of pearl serving
Speaker 3: spoin mm hmm, carved out muscle.
Speaker 4: Probably probably an illegal fresh water probably I shouldn't say, knowing, Josh.
Speaker 1: Maybe those muscle pickers.
Speaker 4: Muscle picking.
Speaker 1: So you gotta open it up. We're gonna for this
Speaker 1: Christian hit it.
Speaker 2: Okay, let me get my spoon right here.
Speaker 5: How much extra was a spoon?
Speaker 2: This is five dollars?
Speaker 1: Okay, who's who's gonna try? You don't have to eat.
Speaker 4: I'm not going to just like you.
Speaker 3: I've had it and so I I.
Speaker 5: Yeah, John, Christian, nice, nice, I'm your huckleberry.
Speaker 1: You're gonna you want something? Yeah, you like it.
Speaker 5: It's it's an acquired taste. It's okay. I mean it
Speaker 5: don't taste like butter to me.
Speaker 4: I've made Well, that's not I've made lots of.
Speaker 2: Okay, let me see what this smells like.
Speaker 1: Hey, Isaac, smell. Can you film this?
Speaker 2: I don't even smell nothing.
Speaker 1: All right, all right, hit me fire up, let me smell,
Speaker 1: Let me smelly.
Speaker 4: To get the real effect. You got to eat the
Speaker 4: first bite without no cracker, you think, so, yeah, well
Speaker 4: I better change that. Without any cracker. I'll get in
Speaker 4: trouble for better right there. You know you have to
Speaker 4: do it.
Speaker 1: I mean, I have a boom.
Speaker 2: They call it.
Speaker 3: That's what they call it.
Speaker 2: That's a clue.
Speaker 1: Keith told us.
Speaker 2: That's what Keith told us.
Speaker 1: All Right, This is that's probably one hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: potential paddlefish that would have been in some river. Bright acidity,
Speaker 1: a taste of the muddy water of the river, very salty.
Speaker 1: It's actually really good. It's fishy, fishy. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's interesting.
Speaker 2: Thank you, tennant Joe.
Speaker 1: Now watch this. Let's see how this goes. Not bad,
Speaker 1: it's gotta it's got a very I can eat, very
Speaker 1: fishy I could eat.
Speaker 4: I may have to test them because when not on
Speaker 4: I've had it before. It was it was something that
Speaker 4: I made eat something.
Speaker 1: Okay, we got Jeff.
Speaker 4: If we eat some that I eat something that somebody
Speaker 4: you did, it might be all right.
Speaker 2: I like that. That's good.
Speaker 1: It actually is good Christian. He's with the band Joe Celebration.
Speaker 2: Come on, that's a whole.
Speaker 1: That's the song.
Speaker 6: It's a salty you've got fishy taste in my mouth.
Speaker 4: Bam, drink like.
Speaker 3: I regret this, all right, Jeff's look at Jeff's.
Speaker 4: Face, spinning it out.
Speaker 2: He still don't like it.
Speaker 5: Just you remember it.
Speaker 3: Let me have another cracker for Brent.
Speaker 4: That's disgusting.
Speaker 3: Actually, I mean I like sushi and it kind of
Speaker 3: gives you that that.
Speaker 1: The potato steps some blue blood in me. I love it.
Speaker 2: Oh, you definitely do you Dad was run the bank,
Speaker 2: Lieutenant Joe.
Speaker 3: You want a cracker?
Speaker 5: Sure, I'll try cracker.
Speaker 1: Now, this is a paddlefish, though.
Speaker 4: I'd have something to get that taste down my mouth.
Speaker 1: Every powerful aftertaste. There's thirty dollars worth of care on that.
Speaker 5: You don't have to give me.
Speaker 2: Such a big dollar. Oh that's good.
Speaker 1: I need to let yeah, there's there's yeah here, y'all
Speaker 1: keep that over there.
Speaker 3: Let me let me, let me try on that.
Speaker 1: It does have an odd non fishy taste. That's kind
Speaker 1: of powerful, Like it's not.
Speaker 4: A taste like dead battlefish.
Speaker 1: Now, okay, tell us you were telling us before about
Speaker 1: how that tastes like paddlefish smell.
Speaker 4: Paddlefish have a distinctive smell. A boat would come off
Speaker 4: the water and maybe they had had fish, caught fish,
Speaker 4: release fish, or whatever. But you could tell, you could
Speaker 4: tell that that boat had paddlefish in it because of
Speaker 4: a distinctive smell. And they're real only and they would
Speaker 4: leave an oily sheen on everything they touched. Same thing
Speaker 4: with the pickup or something. You could tell if that
Speaker 4: pick up it had paddlefish in it recently because of
Speaker 4: the way they smell. To me, that's the way that
Speaker 4: taste is just yeah.
Speaker 2: Can't go for it.
Speaker 4: It's it's unique battlefish task.
Speaker 6: Say, why is paddlefish so prominent in northeast Oklahoma?
Speaker 2: Is that the hub of it or what.
Speaker 4: The Grand Lakes excuse me, as ah tis Cracker Grand Lake,
Speaker 4: we call that the nursery. That's kind of that was
Speaker 4: kind of the last holdout of them. They'd kind of
Speaker 4: been because of the dams and the rivers and all
Speaker 4: that stuff. They'd kind of been for one reason or
Speaker 4: another extirpated from different river systems, and but Grand Lake
Speaker 4: was the last major holdout. Now several lakes in northeast Oklahoma,
Speaker 4: all the lakes in northeast Oklahoma and several lakes and
Speaker 4: other parts of the state have had paddlefish reintroduced and
Speaker 4: are doing real well.
Speaker 2: Huh interesting, good m yep, here's the lead for that
Speaker 2: cow me in Man was like, good moonshine. Once you
Speaker 2: on cork it, don't put just throw the cork out
Speaker 2: of the window.
Speaker 1: Hey, now, what's it going to take for us to
Speaker 1: get a row license?
Speaker 2: You just gotta go pay for it.
Speaker 1: How hard is it to process it?
Speaker 4: Is? It?
Speaker 2: Is?
Speaker 1: It pretty hard to make it taste that good?
Speaker 3: No, literally just mixed salting.
Speaker 4: Well, if you take to process, to process the eggs,
Speaker 4: you have you have a screen. You take the eggs
Speaker 4: out of the fish. There they're attached to a membrane.
Speaker 4: You lightly screen the eggs we call it screen, and
Speaker 4: you lightly screen them off of that membrane. Throw the
Speaker 4: membrane away. Now the eggs are in a mixing bowl.
Speaker 4: We use stainless steel mixing bowls. You fill it full
Speaker 4: of water and just kind of kind of like you're
Speaker 4: panting for gold. You kind of all the all the
Speaker 4: blood and yuck, which is very little, comes to the top.
Speaker 4: You pour that off, You add a predetermined amount of
Speaker 4: salt to it that you want to use on that batch,
Speaker 4: and then you put it in the hydrator, I say
Speaker 4: the hydrator. You put it somewhere to to so that
Speaker 4: moisture can can come off of it. And you've got
Speaker 4: to finish product. Now, for commercial product, then you have
Speaker 4: to pasteurize it and all that stuff. But as soon
Speaker 4: as you salt it and then get some of the
Speaker 4: moisture off of it, it's edible.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, okay, so josh, this is how much did
Speaker 1: this tend?
Speaker 3: That is probably one hundred and forty two hundred and
Speaker 3: fifty dollars worth of Wow, that's a rough one.
Speaker 1: I think we should all take a hit without without
Speaker 1: a cracker.
Speaker 2: I don't ready like the terminology.
Speaker 3: Yeah together, Now this this looks a little different. It's bigger,
Speaker 3: it's bigger, it feels less. Oh yeah, there's less moisture
Speaker 3: in its Number six is right there. Hit me, hit me,
Speaker 3: And this is supposed to be better than the other job.
Speaker 1: This is some of the best in the world.
Speaker 5: Yeah, all right, yeah, that would be supposed to be paddle.
Speaker 2: F All right, don't worry. That's put too much of it.
Speaker 2: Let me have half of that. That's better.
Speaker 1: Less is it doesn't taste fishy.
Speaker 3: Oh oh my goodness.
Speaker 2: Please please adedit that out.
Speaker 1: Don't edit it out.
Speaker 4: I guess I better take some of this too, so.
Speaker 1: Like, hey that I get it.
Speaker 2: I can see the difference.
Speaker 1: I get it. Okay, this is what happens when you
Speaker 1: spill big difference. That's probably forty dollars worth of sturgeon
Speaker 1: caviar that was on the ground here in my office.
Speaker 1: My office is very clear. Yeah, I've seen the dog
Speaker 1: in here.
Speaker 2: The dogs claim too.
Speaker 4: I can, I can. I can see that.
Speaker 2: It's pretty good.
Speaker 6: Uh the fishy, the fishy taste went away on that.
Speaker 3: Oh oh wow, that's good. I don't know what to say.
Speaker 1: Did you try, Joe, it's definitely yeah, describe what's going
Speaker 1: on in your mouth.
Speaker 5: It's a circus and the eggs are on the trapeze
Speaker 5: at the moment.
Speaker 2: Go back.
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, it is.
Speaker 2: It's a lot.
Speaker 1: It's almost sweat.
Speaker 4: It's almost Yes, it's a lot more subtle.
Speaker 1: It's subtle.
Speaker 5: That real brightness of the paddlefish caviar is, it's not there.
Speaker 5: It's real subtle. It's nice, super creamy. You can actually
Speaker 5: feel the eggs pop.
Speaker 4: Now that that's doable. I wouldn't go so far as
Speaker 4: to say it's delicious, but it's doable.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I could eat that with any kind of cracker.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure you put that on a cracker
Speaker 4: and it may be.
Speaker 2: I shake you old hands.
Speaker 1: Now, I don't know who told man that that does
Speaker 1: taste buttery almost. It almost feels like they put something in.
Speaker 4: You know. And in all fairness that who knows where
Speaker 4: that paddlefish caviar came from? I mean I know where it.
Speaker 4: I know the company you got it from, whoever made that.
Speaker 4: Everybody everybody makes her caviar different. Well, he's watching some
Speaker 4: of those Eastern Europeans. They'd add all kinds of stuff
Speaker 4: to it. They've adding vodka to it. They just adding
Speaker 4: different types of so they were adding all kinds of
Speaker 4: different uh, spices and stuff. They fixed it all up. Yeah,
Speaker 4: they did all kinds of weird stuff to it.
Speaker 5: They would process that caviar in hotel rooms and you know,
Speaker 5: you'd you'd walk in you know, and there's vodka bottles
Speaker 5: laying everywhere, remnants of eggs, you know, things like that.
Speaker 5: But no, but no, that's it's good stuff.
Speaker 1: We need to eat all this, Okay, I mean.
Speaker 4: We're a little bit from Yeah, it didn't have.
Speaker 1: I mean, we can save a spoonful. She's not going
Speaker 1: to be too pumped about it.
Speaker 2: Lieutenant Joe, you.
Speaker 1: Let's give something to Isaac and Christianeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, guys, cracker straight.
Speaker 1: Up, like, yeah, you don't you don't need it on
Speaker 1: a cracker.
Speaker 2: This is really good.
Speaker 4: You know, I'm getting kind of a I'm getting kind
Speaker 4: of a tuna aftertaste.
Speaker 5: You know when you think, you know, we talk about
Speaker 5: it being butter or tasting like butter, salty butter. Well,
Speaker 5: everybody like salted butter, you know, Well, pattle fish eggs
Speaker 5: that's really just fat, fat and salt, same thing butter is,
Speaker 5: and so that you're going to get that flavor.
Speaker 4: The eggs that came out of the Grand River system
Speaker 4: we used for caviar the Wildlife Department made in the
Speaker 4: caviard and these great big fish start showing up in
Speaker 4: Keystone Lake. You know, we talked about how the state
Speaker 4: record come out of the world record for a while.
Speaker 4: Come out of Keystone Lake right there on the west
Speaker 4: edge of Tulsa. Keystone Lake is just full of great, big,
Speaker 4: huge paddlefish, and we were really concerned that the Eastern
Speaker 4: Europeans would start trying to mess with those fish. But
Speaker 4: our biologists had done a lot of work on them,
Speaker 4: and they told us that those big fat fish had
Speaker 4: big fat paddlefish eggs and that they didn't make good caviar.
Speaker 1: Oh, it was like too big, it is too fatty,
Speaker 1: too fatty.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it wouldn't make a good caviar. And consequently, we never,
Speaker 4: if we do, know that the Eastern Europeans fished over there,
Speaker 4: but we never did. We never saw it to the
Speaker 4: extent that we saw it in other places, and that
Speaker 4: may be why that the eggs just didn't make good caviar.
Speaker 2: If you're not eating caviar, you need to take that
Speaker 2: tie off.
Speaker 1: Well, I was expecting that not to be good at all.
Speaker 2: It was good. Good, It was good.
Speaker 1: Good, It was good, wasn't it.
Speaker 3: You were expecting both to be not good.
Speaker 1: Well, Okay, the paddlefish. I could see like fifty to
Speaker 1: fifty people being like I'm going back. Yeah, But the
Speaker 1: salt and fat was nice. The paddlefish that we had
Speaker 1: definitely had a stronger rivery taste.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think if you have a palette for like sushi
Speaker 3: and raw fish like that, you'll probably like it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. But if you don't, but that that's searching.
Speaker 4: That caviar that you had there, that was that was doable.
Speaker 2: Man, I don't like caviar. Uh.
Speaker 6: You noticed in the podcast that these guys are saying
Speaker 6: how healthy it is, you know, they they enjoyed the
Speaker 6: healthy aspect of it. Yeah, so't feel healthier.
Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't know if it's actually healthy
Speaker 4: or whether that was a cultural just like a myth,
Speaker 4: a myth all like uh like with Oriental Oriental culture.
Speaker 4: Lots of wild things have bear gall bladders have medicinal purpose,
Speaker 4: medicinal properties. So I don't know if it's actually somebody's
Speaker 4: ever sit down and said I can I can't see
Speaker 4: maybe a doctor saying no, it's not good for you
Speaker 4: because it's full of salt. But the rest of it,
Speaker 4: I don't know. But man, the Eastern Europeans, they they
Speaker 4: thought it, uh man, all of a sudden they were superhuman.
Speaker 2: I feel pretty good to my Grandma also said that
Speaker 2: if you ate fish and drink milk, you die.
Speaker 6: So yeah, that was a great joke, no joke.
Speaker 1: She wouldn't drink it if you ate fish and drink milk.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she fried. We eat fish every Friday. And I'd say, Moslin,
Speaker 2: I want to see what you want to drink, and
Speaker 2: it's on the glass and mealk. She said, well, you
Speaker 2: can't have it, And I'm like, why, she's able to
Speaker 2: kill you and she had to. My grandmother could cook anything,
Speaker 2: and being a lady, a true southern bell of the South,
Speaker 2: made the worst tea you ever drink. She hated tea,
Speaker 2: so she didn't. She was just like, here it is.
Speaker 2: I mean you can stand ankle deep in it and
Speaker 2: not see your feet.
Speaker 4: We have to have it, but it doesn't have to
Speaker 4: be good.
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. So we drink water, but she
Speaker 2: wouldn't let you have milk.
Speaker 1: According to Google, it's a powerhouse food. The fish eggs. Well,
Speaker 1: if you think about just people wanting to eat as
Speaker 1: minimally processed food as possible, I mean, just like less
Speaker 1: chemicals less yeah, like I mean it's it's it's like
Speaker 1: it's not even cooked, you know.
Speaker 3: So Yeah, ingredients on that package and salt fish row
Speaker 3: and salt.
Speaker 4: They there's there's a pasteurization process. I don't know exactly
Speaker 4: what that is, but for commercial use there's a pastorization process.
Speaker 4: But other than that, it's it.
Speaker 2: Is there anything? Is there anything that you could get
Speaker 2: from it if you didn't do it correctly? Oh?
Speaker 5: Like salvonilla that I don't know.
Speaker 4: It doesn't if it's not frozen, it doesn't have a
Speaker 4: very long shelf life. I mean, you can put it
Speaker 4: in the refrigerator, but you gotta eat it pretty quick.
Speaker 2: How long can you freeze it? Definitely?
Speaker 3: Alan Morrisse told me you could freeze it.
Speaker 2: I think for a year.
Speaker 1: Well, my my caviar expert, who I get my information from,
Speaker 1: Keith Green, tells me that you can freeze paddlefish but
Speaker 1: not sturgeon.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what he's what he said. You know, it's
Speaker 4: funny we've we've talked about before in those podcasts. The
Speaker 4: US Fish and WILI Service and O d w C
Speaker 4: had a progression of rules on paddlefish eggs and there
Speaker 4: was a time there where the only way paddle fish
Speaker 4: eggs could leave Oklahoma is if they were frozen everybody
Speaker 4: thought that once you freeze them, they're no longer good
Speaker 4: for cavia. We'll come to find out that wasn't right.
Speaker 4: So you know, there there was a period of time
Speaker 4: there where yeah, you can leave the state with paddle
Speaker 4: fish eggs, but you got to have them frozen solid
Speaker 4: as a rock. Well, come find out that wasn't It
Speaker 4: wasn't necessarily the best way.
Speaker 3: I've got a question for you guys. The the regulations
Speaker 3: are that you can only possess three pounds of processed
Speaker 3: eggs correct.
Speaker 2: For personal use. I think it's three three.
Speaker 3: Three, So tell me the philosophy of the Oacle Department,
Speaker 3: Oklahoma Department of Wildlife Conservation. What's the real how do
Speaker 3: they come up with three? If a if a paddlefish
Speaker 3: is going to produce a minimum of five to eight
Speaker 3: pounds of eggs, what's the why just three pounds?
Speaker 4: I think maybe that probably a lot of that's just arbitrary.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 4: They want they want people to be able to make
Speaker 4: caviar for personal use if they want to. And looking
Speaker 4: at this, three pounds of caviar is a lot. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it is so rich tell you, uh so, so you
Speaker 4: don't need a whole lot you're allowed to fish for
Speaker 4: the year if you if if you're taking fish to
Speaker 4: make caviar for personal use, that's six pounds and you.
Speaker 3: Can if you can throw, you can throw back till
Speaker 3: you get a female.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, you can catch your release all day
Speaker 4: long if you want to. But a little funny story
Speaker 4: to tell you about how how far this stuff will go.
Speaker 4: There was a guy that worked at the Paddlefish Center
Speaker 4: and he stole a tub of caviaar. Now Keith had
Speaker 4: a system in place. It was all computerized, and it
Speaker 4: was all accounted for. They not only him, but the
Speaker 4: buyers to be to go back and tell you what
Speaker 4: fish that batch of eggs came from. Oh wow, And
Speaker 4: if there was a container of eggs, there was only
Speaker 4: eggs from one fish in there. Oh, there wasn't mixing.
Speaker 4: There was no mixing eggs. So all of them had
Speaker 4: a lot number, all of them had a fish number.
Speaker 2: All this stuff.
Speaker 4: Anyway, somebody stole one of the guys that worked up there.
Speaker 4: They had a lot of part time summer help. He
Speaker 4: stole some eggs and it wasn't very long. They knew him,
Speaker 4: They knew it was gone, and Keith knew it was gone,
Speaker 4: and they had an idea where it was that So anyway,
Speaker 4: they went to this guy's house and he had eaten
Speaker 4: tried to eat it all, and he was literally out
Speaker 4: in the yard sick as a dog.
Speaker 2: Is that right?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so rich. It's like he'd just eaten a
Speaker 4: tub full of butter, you know, and his old he
Speaker 4: had a belly ache, and and Keith with laugh left back,
Speaker 4: said yeah, we showed up and he was out in
Speaker 4: the front yard, you know, as sick as he could
Speaker 4: because I tried to eat all the evidence. But so
Speaker 4: so you can't eat very much of it at a time.
Speaker 4: It goes a long ways. But back to your original question, Yeah,
Speaker 4: that's just I think that's probably just an arbitrary number.
Speaker 4: Three pounds of eggs is a lot of eggs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you probably lose. So if you have if you
Speaker 1: have a let's say, a ten pound eggsack on a
Speaker 1: big female of seventy pound female or something, you're not
Speaker 1: going to get ten pounds of processed cavy. Are they're
Speaker 1: going to get almost that?
Speaker 3: Are you really?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 4: Yeah, only the only the only, the only thing that
Speaker 4: you're not getting is is that little bit of membrane
Speaker 4: that held all those eggs together and you got to
Speaker 4: batch eggs. It's as big as a bast Like if
Speaker 4: you get a little bitty baseball sized sack off.
Speaker 1: If I what are the specifics three pounds per person
Speaker 1: or per household per person.
Speaker 3: So like if I went with duns and my wife
Speaker 3: can get three.
Speaker 1: Pounds, and it can be from the same fish that
Speaker 1: we could tag. We could tag one fish, like our
Speaker 1: family catches one fish, but we have one fish twelve
Speaker 1: pounds of caviar. That's okay. As long as those people
Speaker 1: are licensed in Oklahoma. Yes, as long as I have
Speaker 1: okay that that makes it so you're not there. There
Speaker 1: aren't people that are like throwing caviar and like throwing
Speaker 1: it on the ground because they can't have three pounds
Speaker 1: or they can't have more than three pounds. I mean
Speaker 1: they're they're they're probably fishing.
Speaker 4: With other other than other than the Eastern Europeans. I've
Speaker 4: never seen anybody making caviar. Nobody, not that they don't,
Speaker 4: I've just never seen it.
Speaker 7: Yeah, what is that your experience? The same people aren't
Speaker 7: doing it. The only people that I know that that
Speaker 7: do it, you know, other than Eastern Europeans. Is Keith
Speaker 7: and maybe his brother.
Speaker 1: They so maybe that'll change after people watched watched us.
Speaker 2: I doubt it.
Speaker 1: Fish being that rivers just before the dinosaurs, nobody been
Speaker 1: eating their eggs and they are gonna be in their
Speaker 1: eggs now.
Speaker 5: I don't know if this will be the catalyst for
Speaker 5: cultural change.
Speaker 1: Remember when we started eating it?
Speaker 2: Well, that's true, it's all good. That's good, man.
Speaker 1: Now I could eat that sturgeon. Caviar was a lot
Speaker 1: better processing though, I don't know, it was a lot better.
Speaker 1: I'd say, I like.
Speaker 2: Both of them.
Speaker 3: You gotta taste for fish though.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love fish. I eat fish every day.
Speaker 1: Well, hey, that that was really interesting. Dad, You didn't know.
Speaker 1: I didn't talk to you at all about this story.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't have even known we were doing it. You
Speaker 1: listened to both episodes? What was the most the coolest
Speaker 1: thing that you learned?
Speaker 2: Rainbow Rock?
Speaker 1: Who is this guy's parents?
Speaker 6: Man, he's got such a great story and he starts
Speaker 6: it with Rambow and it ends it.
Speaker 4: I gotta be honest. I listened to it when it
Speaker 4: would come out. I thought, where's he going? It was
Speaker 4: all good?
Speaker 2: It was all it was good.
Speaker 4: It was all good.
Speaker 1: But uh, you know, just just the fish.
Speaker 6: I mean, it's ancient, you know, and you look at
Speaker 6: it and you just think, Man, this mistake, God, monkey
Speaker 6: up here somehow.
Speaker 1: I look at this thing still here?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's still here.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I mean, it's just just the strangest thing I'd ever seen.
Speaker 3: It's pretty cool to think of a fish that you
Speaker 3: could find fossilized that's still floating in the river.
Speaker 4: That's you know, yeah, yeah yeah. And the like we
Speaker 4: were talking earlier, they're extremely tough. They go through those
Speaker 4: floodgates that blow Pensacola and down at Hudson and down
Speaker 4: at Fort Gibson, all in that system, and they go
Speaker 4: through some of those floodgates in a big floody vent
Speaker 4: and they come out of there with the rosstum's broken
Speaker 4: off and the heel up. It's not uncommon in Hudson Lake,
Speaker 4: which is the lake just downstream from Grand Lake to
Speaker 4: catch fish that don't have rostrums.
Speaker 2: Really, what is their main what's the main thing that
Speaker 2: they eat?
Speaker 4: Plankton?
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, all all, why are we catching them?
Speaker 1: Somebody?
Speaker 2: No, here's the here's the question. I mean, here's the deal,
Speaker 2: you know, on mining and bears little adventure we went on.
Speaker 2: Guy we was with said, don't be surprised if we
Speaker 2: don't catch some on the limb line.
Speaker 4: Oh really yeah, and I think it'd be accident if
Speaker 4: you did. I mean, they would accidentally snag themselves. A
Speaker 4: popular way in Grand Lake, uh, in the pattlement still
Speaker 4: is is to use snaglines, which is a trot line,
Speaker 4: you know, tite line across the bottom with hooks set
Speaker 4: just so far apart and the hooks tied on in
Speaker 4: such a way that they turned into the fish. That
Speaker 4: was a popular way to catch battlefish. They'd snag on them.
Speaker 4: They accidentally swimming to the hook and get caught. But
Speaker 4: they're not going to eat that bait whatever it is
Speaker 4: you got on there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, ten four. But they do.
Speaker 4: They do accidentally get caught on jug lines a lot.
Speaker 4: You know, people jug line a lot. It's not uncommon
Speaker 4: to see it. But they're getting accidentally hooked.
Speaker 5: They're just they're just a unique species. I mean, if
Speaker 5: you've never you know, everybody out there listening, if you've
Speaker 5: never caught a paddlefish, you know, it's one of those
Speaker 5: experiences like you got to go do this once. Yeah,
Speaker 5: you know, so yeah, come to northeast Oklahoma, and that's
Speaker 5: where they're at.
Speaker 4: If we haven't people to come on, oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: and if we haven't made it exactly clear. You don't
Speaker 4: catch them with the with a hook and the line,
Speaker 4: I mean a hook and a bait. You do catch
Speaker 4: them with a hooking line, but you they're snagged right
Speaker 4: by dragging. Dragging.
Speaker 1: We actually didn't talk about that much at all. Uh yeah, So,
Speaker 1: I mean guys are using really heavy duty tackle.
Speaker 4: Using big tackle. Big surf frauds a minimum of forty
Speaker 4: fifty pound test A lot of a lot of them
Speaker 4: now use a braided line, which is even tougher, and
Speaker 4: you use anywhere from if you're bank fishing, you're using
Speaker 4: a four to five ounce weight, if you're if you're
Speaker 4: trolling for them in a boat, they use one pound weights. Wow. Yeah,
Speaker 4: but they're not throwing in. Somebody figured out that if
Speaker 4: you troll at about four or five miles an hour
Speaker 4: and just drag that hook behind the boat, you can
Speaker 4: catch all the fish you want.
Speaker 2: And they do.
Speaker 5: They target them with life scope and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're using a big treble hook.
Speaker 4: Using a big treble hook in Oklahoma. That barblous and
Speaker 4: then that came with the catch and release. So, like
Speaker 4: you know we talked about in in maybe in episode one. Uh,
Speaker 4: there's been a progression of rule changes, and every time
Speaker 4: somebody thought they had it figured out, well, let's tweak
Speaker 4: it this way and tweak it this way. And I
Speaker 4: found out that that people just really like fishing for them.
Speaker 4: Keep the fish wasn't necessarily that big of a deal.
Speaker 4: A lot of people do like them, a lot of people,
Speaker 4: a lot of people eat them. But catching release, man,
Speaker 4: people just eat eat that up. So made it where
Speaker 4: you could catch or release all you want. You can
Speaker 4: only keep two fish for the year. You know, there
Speaker 4: was a period of time where you couldn't keep fish
Speaker 4: on Mondays and Fridays and uh, and that was controversial,
Speaker 4: a lot of people scratching their head. But what come
Speaker 4: out of a lot of our research and the fact
Speaker 4: that people had to have a paddlefish permit, So we
Speaker 4: had lots of non residents coming in and I'm not
Speaker 4: even talking about Eastern Europeans right here. We had lots
Speaker 4: of non residents coming in where you could possess what
Speaker 4: was it, two days limits or three days limits. You
Speaker 4: could possess that many fish where they were leaving here
Speaker 4: with a lot of fish, and they were supplying fish
Speaker 4: fries for everybody legally, legally, and and so with the
Speaker 4: you know, local people, residents were complaining about that a
Speaker 4: little bit.
Speaker 3: All the lot just deleting.
Speaker 4: Lots of non residents showing up and and taking back
Speaker 4: a lot of fish. So those non residents were showing
Speaker 4: up on a weekend. Well, that so made it where
Speaker 4: you couldn't keep fish on Mondays and Fridays. That way
Speaker 4: they were only.
Speaker 1: Took it took a two days of a four day
Speaker 1: weekend and people came.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it took two days out of it, and
Speaker 4: and that limited the number of fish that they were
Speaker 4: able to take back home with them. But now that's
Speaker 4: that's a moot point. Now now you can uh keep
Speaker 4: fish on Mondays, but you can only keep one a day,
Speaker 4: two for the year, two for the year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, hm hmm.
Speaker 4: And that's worked for most people because like I said,
Speaker 4: most people just want to catch and release.
Speaker 5: They just liked the picture.
Speaker 4: They want that, they want that fight, and then when
Speaker 4: they get it to the bank, they admire it and
Speaker 4: they turn it loose.
Speaker 2: What about the paddlefish now compared to when you went
Speaker 2: to work. Is it in better shape you? Yes?
Speaker 4: Yes, like Brandon Brown or fisheries boys talked about thirty
Speaker 4: forty thirty years ago. So when I moved back to
Speaker 4: eastern Oklahoma from Western Oklahoma, the Wildlife Department was just
Speaker 4: now starting to reintroduce paddlefish into some of their historic
Speaker 4: range where because of dams and certain situations they have
Speaker 4: been removed and now those places have come online. Uligall
Speaker 4: Lake is there's now guides that are guiding for paddlefish
Speaker 4: on Uligo Lake. Lots of paddlefish in Ulugaul Lake, Keystone Lake,
Speaker 4: Call Lake, Fort Gibson Lake has always been there, but
Speaker 4: it's even better Grand Lake. You fall the lake. There's
Speaker 4: paddlefish everywhere.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Do you know how many fish they're tagging every year
Speaker 1: in Oklahoma?
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't.
Speaker 5: We could find that out.
Speaker 1: I mean, would it be like fifty thousand fish?
Speaker 5: I don't know what the number is.
Speaker 4: They are fisheries people do netting surveys every winter and
Speaker 4: they kind of hop scotch around to different lakes. Lakes
Speaker 4: are on a schedule. You know, they're not doing the
Speaker 4: same lake every year. With the exception maybe a Grand Lake.
Speaker 4: I don't know that, remember that exactly. But out of
Speaker 4: so many of those fish that they catch, they tag
Speaker 4: some of them.
Speaker 1: So they're able to kind of track like how many
Speaker 1: are getting caught, and they might be like, we tagged
Speaker 1: three hundred fish in this lake and yeah, two of
Speaker 1: them got caught.
Speaker 4: I think they even they even they even put that, uh, well,
Speaker 4: there's radio chips in some of them, interesting and that
Speaker 4: you run the scanner over and and uh. But they
Speaker 4: get able to get more, they get GPS dat out
Speaker 4: of those, you know, tell where the fish went? Now?
Speaker 4: Where they being?
Speaker 1: One thing I didn't, I just wasn't. We weren't able
Speaker 1: to get into it with with the fish biologists. But
Speaker 1: paddlefish and other parts of the Mississippi drainage are struggling
Speaker 1: for the am I right. I mean like there's a
Speaker 1: lot of places where they're they're not doing as well.
Speaker 1: Why are they doing so well in Oklahoma but not
Speaker 1: as well in other places.
Speaker 4: I'm going to go out on a limb here and
Speaker 4: this is just my opinion just because of no commercial fishing.
Speaker 4: Oh really yeah, because now, unlike years ago, now paddlefish
Speaker 4: are targeted I see by commercial fishermen because of the
Speaker 4: caviar m we're we're back in the day they weren't.
Speaker 4: That's my opinion. I got no, it's anecdotal, but it's
Speaker 4: because we don't we don't commercial fishing.
Speaker 5: Yeah, throughout the years, we've learned a lot as far
Speaker 5: as you know, highly regulating the take throughout the years,
Speaker 5: kind of kind of manipulating it along the way. I
Speaker 5: think that probably has something to do with it as well.
Speaker 4: You know, over over the course of a decade there,
Speaker 4: every year we were changing the paddle fish rules because
Speaker 4: every year we dialed in just getting it dialed in. Now,
Speaker 4: it was a big jump to dial it into just
Speaker 4: two fish for the year, But our fisheries biologists thought
Speaker 4: that was the right thing to do, and I think
Speaker 4: probably they were right. Most people just want to catch
Speaker 4: and release them. Yeah, it's a big tourist thing. There's
Speaker 4: people come. It's kind of I think maybe it's died off,
Speaker 4: maybe just a little bit. But uh, just five or
Speaker 4: six years ago, ten years ago, especially, man, it was popular.
Speaker 4: There's just people just going crazy for poddlefish, you know,
Speaker 4: fishing for them, and it may have died off a
Speaker 4: little bit, uh, but it's still it's still going strong
Speaker 4: and uh, people just like to catch them with real men.
Speaker 4: Let them go, take pictures, let them go.
Speaker 1: You know in the in the in the hunting world
Speaker 1: and aurel as we're talking about fishing in the honting world,
Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of people not mappen, not a lot.
Speaker 1: I think it's a small group of people that speak
Speaker 1: negatively about uh, like recruiting people to come to a
Speaker 1: specific state for a specific reason. You know, they're they're
Speaker 1: like burning, yes, spot burning, or like like if if
Speaker 1: we'd been talking about deer hunting, like I wouldn't have
Speaker 1: I would have bleeped out or not put in like
Speaker 1: specific lakes and different stuff. But but but it feels
Speaker 1: like as an agency, like you're wanting people to come
Speaker 1: fish in Oklahoma, would you say that's absolutely?
Speaker 2: Absolutely?
Speaker 5: You know, the Wildlife Department is funded mainly by the
Speaker 5: sale of hunting and fishing licenses. You know, if if
Speaker 5: we didn't want people to come hunting fish, I mean
Speaker 5: we're just we're basically unfunded.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 5: If we want to we want to remain funded, we
Speaker 5: want to be able to manage the fishing, wildlife in
Speaker 5: the state, and so hunting and fishing licenses is the
Speaker 5: backbone of that in Oklahoma. Yes, we want people to
Speaker 5: come hunting fish in Oklahoma. We want to provide hunting access,
Speaker 5: we want to provide fishing access. We want our hunting
Speaker 5: and our fishing to be top notch, and you know,
Speaker 5: water quality and access and all kinds of stuff like that.
Speaker 5: It's going to play into it as far as up
Speaker 5: here in the Northeast, and I think that's why paddlefish
Speaker 5: are so popular, or at least one reason. But you know,
Speaker 5: the more folks that we can get to Oklahoma to
Speaker 5: enjoy what we have to offer, the better. So I mean,
Speaker 5: I'm sure you're going to have people on both sides
Speaker 5: of fence on that non residents versus residents and things
Speaker 5: like that.
Speaker 4: There's always the struggle between residents and non residents. Yeah,
Speaker 4: the local guy didn't want his leg called out, but
Speaker 4: the Walleoute Department's all about it. You know, come and
Speaker 4: fish lake x y Z.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: The Walleote Department really really promoted paddlefishing in Oklahoma for
Speaker 4: a long period of time and they were successful in
Speaker 4: getting that word out because it it was a big
Speaker 4: deal to the point that even from a low enforcemance standpoint,
Speaker 4: we said, let's let's back off of that just a
Speaker 4: little bit, you know. And because through through the research,
Speaker 4: through our pattle fish permit program process, we found that
Speaker 4: a lot of our fear we're leaving the state and
Speaker 4: going out of state, not not illegally, but and the
Speaker 4: residents not that they didn't like it, but they moaned
Speaker 4: about that a little bit. So so they dialed that
Speaker 4: back a little bit and and quit promoting it quite
Speaker 4: so much to slow the takedown just a little bit.
Speaker 4: And and it helps some because it did slow down
Speaker 4: a little bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's it feels to me like in in uh
Speaker 1: in our nation where there's so much that's competing with fishing, hunting,
Speaker 1: outdoor activity, and and to us here where we're at,
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like that as as strong. But I mean,
Speaker 1: so much of America is kind of urbanized and moving
Speaker 1: away from this stuff. It feels to me like the
Speaker 1: right move is to recruit people to come do this,
Speaker 1: come hunt, come fish, and and they're are there are
Speaker 1: people that are saying that's the wrong move. It's interesting.
Speaker 1: I like listening to their arguments. I think they're like
Speaker 1: dead wrong.
Speaker 4: Across the United States, most states are losing hunting and
Speaker 4: fishing participants, and Oklahoma is an exception to that. We're
Speaker 4: either gaining a little or or holding our own, which
Speaker 4: is which is an exception to the to the rule.
Speaker 4: And a lot of that is is they just really
Speaker 4: promote uh, you know, everybody, we wanted to come and
Speaker 4: fish Oklahoma because Oklahoma is okay.
Speaker 1: And Oklahoma has increased their non resident.
Speaker 4: I was awaiting, been a long time.
Speaker 1: Every right to do it. Man, Like I've talked to
Speaker 1: our people here in Arkansas. It's like, charge the heck
Speaker 1: out of them if they're come. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: residents should be given priority.
Speaker 4: I do.
Speaker 2: I don't care.
Speaker 1: It's just you know what to speak of a priority.
Speaker 1: And if I want to come hunt in your state,
Speaker 1: I don't pay taxes, I don't shop there, I don't
Speaker 1: drive on those roads.
Speaker 4: All the time I've been on the other I'm on
Speaker 4: the other end of it too, just like y'all are too.
Speaker 4: You try to go to Colorado and an elk and
Speaker 4: an ELK classes is eight hundred and some dollars and
Speaker 4: a resident's paying fifty. Yeah, it's hard to stomach that yeah.
Speaker 4: So I'm like, I can see both sides of it. Yeah,
Speaker 4: but yeah we did.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's there's definitely two sides of it. But but
Speaker 1: I don't if I want to go to somebody else's state,
Speaker 1: I just got to be willing to sacrifice to do it,
Speaker 1: because if you come into my state and hunt my places,
Speaker 1: my you know, my public land spots, I want you
Speaker 1: to sacrifice it too. That's just the way I feel
Speaker 1: about you. And I don't think that's an inhibition. I mean,
Speaker 1: we could just make it free and say well anybody
Speaker 1: can go anywhere and there's no money involved. I mean,
Speaker 1: that wouldn't work.
Speaker 2: And then we lost all the bus and so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, good point, good point.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, hey, I just want to say, uh, thanks to
Speaker 1: Austin Jackson. Austin called me months ago, months ago, I
Speaker 1: mean probably nine months ago, and he he said, hey,
Speaker 1: I think this is really good story. And people do
Speaker 1: that to me often and and honestly it rarely works out.
Speaker 1: He gave me a sales pitch that was good. He said,
Speaker 1: he did all the things I needed. He said, I've
Speaker 1: got the people, he said, I got him lined up.
Speaker 1: This is a story you should tell, you know, he
Speaker 1: gave me kind of the highlights.
Speaker 4: He made lie to you a little bit. I think
Speaker 4: he talked to you before he got everybody lined up,
Speaker 4: because he called me one evening. He goes, he said, hey,
Speaker 4: I threw you under the bus a little bit. I said,
Speaker 4: what do you do? He goes, do you know clayon nukeomb?
Speaker 4: I said, I don't know him, but I don't know
Speaker 4: who he is. He goes, well, would you be willing
Speaker 4: to sit down and do a podcast on Russian snag?
Speaker 4: And I said, well, yeah, that'll be fine.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he'll be there on Tuesday.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, and you know, I don't know how
Speaker 4: much time much time we got left. But that's a
Speaker 4: story too, because when I met you all over there,
Speaker 4: I still think we're in the planning process, you know.
Speaker 4: And I show up with you guys over there, and
Speaker 4: you put these headphones on me and let's go, let's go.
Speaker 4: Wait a minute. I'm not really prepared for all of this,
Speaker 4: but it turned out. But it turned out great.
Speaker 2: Job.
Speaker 1: If I can, you make your time, take your time.
Speaker 4: So my whole worry about this whole process was about
Speaker 4: me coming off. I'm the one telling the story and
Speaker 4: you're telling it for me. But my my worry was
Speaker 4: that I would come, it would come across as as
Speaker 4: me doing all this work. So I've got to I've
Speaker 4: got to, I've got to throw the props out. Joe
Speaker 4: was a big part of that. All I all I
Speaker 4: did was facilitate and make sure everybody knew what was
Speaker 4: going on and had what they needed. Joe and the
Speaker 4: game warding in Mace County, Monty Reid probably somebody you
Speaker 4: should have talked to. He knew them all by name.
Speaker 4: He knew all their kids, he knew all their grand babies,
Speaker 4: and if they showed up on the river, he knew it.
Speaker 4: He worked tireshly. Breck Henry was the supervisor in that area,
Speaker 4: worked tiresly. Jim Gillen was another game warden. We brought
Speaker 4: game wardens from all over the state. We couldn't work
Speaker 4: it because everybody knew us. It just took one day
Speaker 4: for everybody getting on, you know, over there. So we
Speaker 4: were bringing people in from the panhand on from southwest
Speaker 4: Oklahoma to come over there and be our eyes and
Speaker 4: ears because they could go down and seemingly fish with
Speaker 4: them and at least just watch them. It was such
Speaker 4: a big group effort that I didn't. I just had
Speaker 4: to take a minute and drop some names there because
Speaker 4: they had a lot beer rolling it. And then actually
Speaker 4: I did. All I'm doing is just tell the story.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was a team effort for sure. I mean,
Speaker 5: there's only one hundred and eighteen of us across the
Speaker 5: entire state, and at one point or another, everybody had
Speaker 5: an opportunity to come to northeast Oklahoma and work baddlefish.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, and and to their benefit, a lot of
Speaker 4: them wanted to yea, you know, from from other parts
Speaker 4: of the state, and oh, they just ate it up.
Speaker 4: There's a female officer that that worked at Grove at
Speaker 4: the time. Her name is Marnie Loftus. She's now a
Speaker 4: district captain in Oklahoma City. She is the one that
Speaker 4: got our foot in the door with a lot of
Speaker 4: these She worked under cover and we've got pictures of
Speaker 4: her and boats with the Russians just snagging away and
Speaker 4: she she opened the door on a lot of the
Speaker 4: investigations that we had going on. Just just outstanding job.
Speaker 4: You need to, you know, shout out to her for
Speaker 4: what she did. But it was it was just such
Speaker 4: a group effort. We had a blessing from the from
Speaker 4: the top down. The only negative if there was a negative.
Speaker 4: He was as like I talked about, we were letting
Speaker 4: all these eggs go out of state and following them
Speaker 4: and stuff and had some success, and but we weren't
Speaker 4: having the success that we thought we we needed. And
Speaker 4: finally my boss says, how long are you gonna let
Speaker 4: this go on? You know, when you're gonnaut, when you're
Speaker 4: gonna stop it. That's a good question. But I took
Speaker 4: that for the way he meant it, and we stopped it,
Speaker 4: and we started arresting them and taking their stuff. And
Speaker 4: I think it's like Cody told you last time. He
Speaker 4: said he talked to one of them, and they said,
Speaker 4: Cody asked himself, well, why did y'all stop? Because y'all
Speaker 4: made it too hard on us, And through some legislative
Speaker 4: change and through taking a lot of their stuff, we
Speaker 4: made it hard on them. And they I don't know
Speaker 4: that they stopped. They sure changed the way they's doing it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but job, Yeah, for real, it's an incredible story.
Speaker 1: And uh and and I'll say on behalf of you
Speaker 1: and and Keith and and everybody. Yeah, sometimes when you
Speaker 1: tell these stories, like we just kind of swoop in
Speaker 1: and like learn this story really quick, and we kind
Speaker 1: of have to focus on the people that are in
Speaker 1: front of us, and you go. And people didn't hear
Speaker 1: the whole the whole interview. They hurt heard probably forty
Speaker 1: percent of the interviews with both of you, and both
Speaker 1: of you guys were very given credit to to other
Speaker 1: people that sometimes it was hard to put into the podcast.
Speaker 1: So I mean, like it, I didn't feel in any
Speaker 1: way that I mean, you guys were that was.
Speaker 4: That was my only concern and apprehension if there was
Speaker 4: I've never done this before in this format. But but
Speaker 4: the one thing that did worry me was coming across
Speaker 4: it was the Jeff Brown Show. And it's absolutely not
Speaker 4: there was one hundred and eight guys and girls that
Speaker 4: that participated in it. I'm just the one telling the story.
Speaker 1: Well awesome, Yeah, you know, I think you're a hero.
Speaker 1: I think Joe you're a hero. I think Keith's a hero,
Speaker 1: and that that's the story that I want to tell people.
Speaker 1: You know, and man, the work that you guys do,
Speaker 1: it's pretty cool that we as a society really have
Speaker 1: chosen to protect wildlife to the degree that we do,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, we got guys twenty four hours
Speaker 1: a day, three hundred and sixty five days a year,
Speaker 1: putting their life on the line protecting wildlife. And it
Speaker 1: shows the cultural value that we have as a people
Speaker 1: for these fish, this wildlife. And you know, I also
Speaker 1: want to give credit to just the Oklahoma Department of
Speaker 1: Wildlife in their willingness to even let you guys share
Speaker 1: this story. I think it's a mistake to hide some
Speaker 1: of the stuff. I mean, there's probably some liability, you know,
Speaker 1: like small liability. I think with agencies letting people like
Speaker 1: talk and you know, it could have been a bad experience.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm a punk and I misconstrue the story. But
Speaker 1: this stuff translated in a meaningful way to where people
Speaker 1: can actually understand it. You know, they listen for two
Speaker 1: hours and understand. I mean, I think it's worth the risk,
Speaker 1: Like because there is risk, there's there's there's risk in
Speaker 1: telling these stories. But man, I think in today's world,
Speaker 1: with all the technology, all the communication, all the fast
Speaker 1: paced nature of society, I think agencies would do well
Speaker 1: to even cooperate more. And I see that happening in
Speaker 1: Arkansas with our with our regime here in Arkansas as
Speaker 1: they're they're trying to stay congruent with the times and
Speaker 1: the way that people communicate, and it is different. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think there would have been a time when people
Speaker 1: would have been like, no, you're not going to talk
Speaker 1: about that. That's this is out of play. And I
Speaker 1: just think that's a mistake. And I see Oklahoma doing
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of great stuff, even down
Speaker 1: to the simplicity of we talked about the social media
Speaker 1: how incredible and the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife social media
Speaker 1: is they're really funny. They had a really good girl,
Speaker 1: uh doing it that I don't know her, but I
Speaker 1: see her.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's that's Sarah Sutherland.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, she's really done a good.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 4: I don't even know what social media uh platform it's on,
Speaker 4: but yeah, she she did a good job. I'm not
Speaker 4: I'm not very social media.
Speaker 2: Uh savvy savvy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I trove Facebook ever now and then.
Speaker 1: But yeah, well so thank you to you guys.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, absolutely, thank you.
Speaker 4: Thank you for having us and thank you for doing
Speaker 4: you know this, This is the main reason Austin wanted
Speaker 4: reach down. One of this done was to preserve it
Speaker 4: preserve to preserve the story. So that that and I
Speaker 4: think I think you did that. So we appreciate that.
Speaker 5: He wanted to be here today, but he he was
Speaker 5: teaching an active shooter class today.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, he messaged me, well, Brent, Josh,
Speaker 1: Christian players Plasta exit song, hit it here we go.
Speaker 5: That's right, Yeah, that's.
Speaker 2: Where the hair title. What keys are?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Barbecue.
Speaker 1: I'm ready to eat some of those fish eggs.
Speaker 2: I hope y'all leave and leave. I won't take it home.
Speaker 1: All right, thanks Christian, you got very good, all right,