WEBVTT - When Ambition Leads to Burnout with Rainesford Stauffer 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:08.119 Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever, 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:12.320 pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:15.080 and I have conversations that put a new spin on 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:23.200 pretty This is pretty smart. Hello, I hope that you're 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:26.319 planning on some rest because we are so close to 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:27.240 the holidays. 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:29.080 Actually, you know, I take that back. 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:31.560 I hope you are planning on whatever it is you're craving, 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:35.040 because I think some people may be craving adventure. I 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:37.320 think I'm craving a little rest, to be honest. So 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:41.400 I'm hoping I get that. I recorded this a little 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:44.239 bit ahead of time, and so I'm actually currently in 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:49.040 Chicago freezing my eggs, and I just recorded a podcast 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:50.800 with the clinic. 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:51.720 It's named OVA. 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:55.000 I just recorded the podcast with Ova about the whole 0:00:55.040 --> 0:01:01.880 process because I felt like it was mysterious. I did 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:06.119 a ton of research online before this, but the questions 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:08.240 to ask who needs to do it, at what age 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:10.839 you need to do it, all of that felt sort 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:14.760 of obtuse. And you know, I like things to the 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:18.320 point and clear, right, That's the journalist in me. I 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:21.320 like them clear and to the point. So that episode 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:25.080 is going to drop the first Thursday in January, so 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:27.920 right after New Year's Half the episode is going to 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:32.479 be you hearing from them, so you get their scientific perspective, 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:36.160 and the other half is going to be sort of 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:39.560 dear diary from me. I've never done that before, but 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:43.559 I have so much to say about this process, and 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:46.080 I want to take you through what my experiences were, 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:50.880 Like I recorded the whole thing, like I video journaled. Basically, 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:53.560 there were only a few tears, but I will share why. 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:56.800 And the goal is really to just demystify all of this. 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:01.040 When I started posting on Instagram, I got but I 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:05.840 think thousands, like literally thousands of messages from women who 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:09.960 have either frozen their eggs or frozen embryos and done IVF, 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:15.320 and their tips helped me so much. So I'm going 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:18.120 to share all those tips with you. You know, some 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:21.320 of those things are not necessarily scientifically proven, and so 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:25.160 the clinics can't share them with you because it's like anecdotal. 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:27.840 But women know what they're talking about. 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:30.200 People have been through this know what they're talking about, 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:32.360 and so I want to share what all of those 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:34.760 things are that no one else tells you except for 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:39.920 people that have been through it. Okay, now for today's episode. 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:43.120 Today is about burnout. 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:46.600 So you may have heard, but in case you haven't, 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:49.200 hustle culture is dead. 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:51.400 The girl boss is also dead. 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:55.960 If you look on TikTok, we've entered our soft girl eras. 0:02:56.720 --> 0:03:00.400 It's really a new perspective on ambition now only as 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:04.160 an ambitious woman and an ambitious person. I'm not ready 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:06.440 to give into the idea that we're in the age 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:07.520 of anti ambition. 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:09.799 But what I do like. 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:13.800 Is that maybe ambition has evolved, and maybe that means 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:17.040 we're determining there's a better way, a better way to 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:23.280 be simultaneously ambitious and not exhausted, not burnt out. So 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:26.720 first things first, what is burnout? Burnout is a state 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:31.680 of emotional, physical, and mental exhaustion caused by excessive and 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:37.720 prolonged stress. It occurs when you feel overwhelmed, emotionally drained, 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:41.559 and unable to meet constant demands. As the stress continues, 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:44.240 you begin to lose the interest and motivation that led 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:48.000 you to take on that certain role or those responsibilities. 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:48.560 Or that task in the first place. 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:53.480 Burnout reduces productivity, SAPs your energy, and it leaves you 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:58.400 feeling helpless, hopeless. Maybe even a little resentful or cynical, 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.360 and eventually you just feel like you have nothing more 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:03.080 to give. 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:05.240 I've been there. 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:07.720 It happened this year for the first time, and I 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:10.240 share that story in this episode, and I got to 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:14.320 share it with our guest Rainsford Staffer. She's an accomplished 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:18.479 author and journalist. She's contributed to renowned publications like The 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:22.119 New York Times, The Cut, New York Magazine, Wall Street 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:24.600 Journal Magazine, Teen Vogue, The Atlantic. 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:25.680 The list goes on. 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:29.560 But in her latest book, All the Gold Stars, she 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:34.400 explores how the cultural, personal, and societal expectations around ambition 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:37.440 are driving the global burnout epidemic. 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:40.760 I think exhaustion can come from burnout and be a 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:44.520 result of burnout, but to me, exhausting is something where 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:47.240 we need to take care of ourselves, where we know 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:51.680 we need that rest. Burnout, I think is the aftermath 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:56.560 of total structural crises that have pumped the burden of 0:04:56.600 --> 0:05:00.600 those crises on individuals and told them if you work 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:02.599 a little bit harder, if you do a little bit more, 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:05.440 if you log more hours, it's all going to be okay. 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:11.159 She says, it's actually limiting our imaginations. Her own ambition crisis, 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:13.840 which is what she calls it led her to interview 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:17.719 women across the country suffering the exact same thing. She 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:20.240 was determined to figure out how so many of us 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:23.240 got to this place of burnout, and what she discovered 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:27.640 were the common factors driving us all peeling back layers 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:32.760 of family expectations, capitalism, self esteem that dangerously tie up 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:34.840 our worth in our output. 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:37.880 I think that one of the traps that we sometimes 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:41.760 fall into with ambition is thinking that if it changes, 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:45.200 if it ebbs and flows, it means that we're quitting, 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:47.840 and that quitting is always a bad thing. I think 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:50.400 quitting can be a really ambitious thing, first of all, 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:54.440 but I also think it's really natural for our ambition 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:56.400 to change in shape as we do. 0:05:57.160 --> 0:06:01.719 Interviews with students, parents, workers, psychology, labor organizers, and more 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:08.080 allowed her to reframe and retool ambition as more collective, imaginative, 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:12.360 and rooted in caring for ourselves and each other. 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:16.080 I think that that is a total structural failing, and 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:21.680 the most unimaginative idea we could have about ambition, that 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:23.679 it only looks one way. 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:26.680 One of the things I really valued about our conversation 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:30.520 is that Rainsford is not telling us to stop being ambitious. 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:34.760 She says she's still very ambitious. She is simply saying 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:38.720 maybe we've been looking at ambition all wrong, that there 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:43.599 is a deeper, more creative way to be ambitious. You know, 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:46.360 I love flipping words on their head. So another way 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:50.600 of looking at ambition required a bit of thought about 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:54.240 the questions we're asking ourselves. So here's what I came 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:57.960 up with. We all hear, try harder, work harder, try harder, 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:00.640 and you'll get there. But what if if we flip it? 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:04.440 What would our ambitions and our goals look like if 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:05.480 we tried easier. 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:16.320 So, Rainsford, you are a writer. 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:19.280 You've been writing for years, and then you decided to 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:21.480 write this book called All the Gold Stars, which is 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:24.160 right behind you, has a beautiful green and gold cover. 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:25.440 I'm obsessed with your cover. 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:28.880 I can take no credit for that. What an amazing 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:31.760 designer we had working on this cover. I'm very lucky. 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:35.560 Well, it makes sense because All the Gold Stars really 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:38.480 is sort of alluding to ambition, like gold stars that 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:41.440 you would get at school. This book is about ambition 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:45.960 and overwork and burnout. And in the first chapter you 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:49.280 write ambition felt alluring to me. I could time my 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:51.720 life on goals. I could feel the flood of relief 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:55.520 when a teacher or bus or random stranger on the 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:58.400 Internet thought I'd done a good job. I lit up, 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:01.560 not at accolades or accomplished, but at the acknowledgment that 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:05.280 came with them. So I got what you were saying. 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:08.560 I relate to you in a lot of ways. How 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:11.400 would you characterize or describe your ambition? 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:12.320 Early on? 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:16.679 Early on, when I think of my ambition, I think 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:21.440 about people pleasing. I think about a desire to earn 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:25.560 self worth and the idea of worthiness. I think that 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:27.640 if I could articulate it in one word, it would 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:31.360 actually be earning. I felt like my ambition was my 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:35.360 opportunity to prove that I was good enough. And so, 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:38.560 whereas I think other people were really focused on a 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:42.240 specific goal or getting a straight A, what felt so 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:46.240 alluring to me was not really getting the gold stars, 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:49.320 so to speak. It was that I had poured my 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:52.880 entire self into something and that maybe I would feel 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:55.160 worthy on the other side of that. And it's really 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:58.360 interesting to think back now as an adult, how early 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:01.679 that manifested. I don't think obviously I would have articulated 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:04.520 it that way when I was an elementary schooler, a 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:07.240 middle schooler, But I think that that was kind of 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:10.720 the constant current running through my ambition, was this desire 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:15.040 to feel safe and secure and good enough. 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:21.520 This is a lofty question, but your attachment to ambition, 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:25.160 like you said in Money Ways, was tied to self worth. 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:29.400 Have you sort of unpacked having written this book and 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:33.880 I'm sure done therapy, have you unpacked where your attachment 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:35.400 to ambition came from? 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:40.760 Oh my gosh, yes, so many different facets of that. 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:42.520 I really do think it's one of those things where 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:45.040 it was a lot of threads tied together. And I 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:48.360 think that honestly, having the conversations I got to have 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:52.239 while reporting this book really helped me think more critically 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:56.000 about not just how my own ambition manifested, but my 0:09:56.040 --> 0:10:00.200 own relationship to it. So as a backstory, I I'm 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:04.960 chronically ill and I have obsessive compulsive disorder, and now 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:07.800 it is very easy for me to kind of see 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:11.120 the pattern that when I fell out of control in 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:13.360 my own body, when I felt a little bit out 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:16.880 of control in my own mind, ambition kind of became 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:20.000 an outlet for that. I knew I couldn't control outcomes. 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:23.480 I couldn't control you know, if I got cast is 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:26.480 the part I wanted in the childhood Dance performance. But 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:29.240 I could be the one that showed up early and 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:31.760 the one that stayed late. I may not be able 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:33.880 to control getting an A on a test, but I 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:36.720 could certainly control the amount of hours I put into 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:40.480 overdoing my homework. And I think the slippery thing about 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:43.400 all of that is that on the surface, it looks 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:46.920 like really positive things. It looks like somebody who's hard 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:50.920 working or diligent or all of these good qualities that 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:53.480 we tend to align with a certain kind of ambition 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:56.240 that presents in a certain way. And I think that 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:59.320 the detrimental aspect of that is I didn't realize how 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:02.320 much it was apping on to these other parts of 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:06.160 my life, to OCD, to very low self esteem, to 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:09.000 feeling like I was an imposter, and a lot of 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:10.959 the things I wanted to do or the work that 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:14.120 I was passionate about, And I think that it kind 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:18.400 of trickled into not necessarily being ambitious because I cared 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:21.599 so much, but being ambitious because I was trying to 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:24.240 protect myself. I was trying to make sure everything was 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:25.199 going to be okay. 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:29.440 Yeah, the protection is such a huge aspect of that. 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:32.520 One of the quotes I wrote down that stood out 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:34.920 to me is when you said, if ambition felt like 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:37.280 such a part of me, that it was responsible for 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:40.320 all the good stuff, what bad habits or mistakes or 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:45.000 misprioritization had my own ambition enabled? So you mentioned some 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:50.400 of those negative things that it enabled. At what point 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:53.079 did you decide that you needed to reflect on your 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:53.760 own ambition. 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:58.920 This is so funny because basically my first book was 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:01.840 about to come out, which was about Expectations and young 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:04.680 adulthood and really talked mostly to people in their late 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:07.640 teens and early twenties about this pressure to have the 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:10.920 time of your life that we know is not happening 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:14.600 for people for personal reasons and really structural reasons, where 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:17.320 there's a lot of systemic factors that kind of come 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:20.760 to fruition in adulthood. So I had been doing all 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:23.080 of this research, I had been doing work that I 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:25.720 was really passionate about, on top of work I needed 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.880 to do to pay my bills, and it was one 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:32.760 of those moments where there was just kind of a 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:37.760 cascade of hard life things all at once. My health 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:40.040 was getting worse, and no one could figure out why. 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:44.240 I was going through a lot of interpersonal struggles just 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:48.439 in my relationships. Everything felt like it was in flux 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:52.640 and falling apart at once. And my default setting before 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:55.440 was to double down and get more ambitious when I 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:58.280 felt like I was in crisis. That was kind of 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.000 my crisis response. Silly as it sounds. I was going 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:03.240 to start a new project. I was going to be 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:05.640 the person that organized everything. I was going to make 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:09.280 sure everyone else was okay. And it's like my second 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:13.679 gear had gotten stuck all of a sudden. I couldn't 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:16.160 push through at work, and I couldn't show up the 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:19.640 way I wanted to show up personally, and it felt 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:23.120 beyond drained. It felt as though I had lost the 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:25.640 sense of self and was sort of staring at who 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:29.200 I used to be through this fog and wondering why 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.120 I couldn't get back to that person. And so I 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:35.520 started thinking about ambition in relation to that, and where 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:37.960 had my ambition gone and had I lost it? And 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:42.200 who was I without it? And more conversations I had 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:47.120 with people, the more I realized that ambition intersex was 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:51.079 so much of how we think of work, of how 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:54.160 we think of earning it, of how we think of deservedness. 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:57.360 It bumps up against all of these different structural or 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:02.760 systemic issues. And that's when the reporter writer part of 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:05.400 my brain got involved and was like, I don't want 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:07.280 to just think about my own ambition. I want to 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:09.600 talk to a lot of other people who know more, 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:12.800 who feel more about theirs. And I think it was 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:16.640 through those conversations that it showed me a different way 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:19.160 forward for myself as well. 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:22.840 So you decide to interview people about ambition, and throughout 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:26.640 your book you did interviews with students and parents and 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:32.640 psychologists and even labor organizers workers. I want to talk 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:35.080 to you about a few specific examples, for sure, but 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:39.400 before that, did you find a common thread at all 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:42.760 about ambition or was everybody's ambition a bit different? 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:45.920 This is so interesting and it's been interesting to think 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:49.040 about both while I was reporting and afterward, because I 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:54.320 think the thing about ambition is it does feel deeply personal. 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.520 For some people, their ambition is a huge point of pride. 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:01.240 Others feel like ambition has almost been use to exploit 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:03.520 them and it's caused a lot of harm in their lives. 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:09.600 But everyone talked about the different structural factors that enabled 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:13.600 or upheld a certain social script of who an ambitious 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:16.200 person was supposed to be, what kind of things did 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:18.920 they do, what kind of timeline did they do them on? 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:22.520 And I was really interested to see how in every 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:28.440 single conversation it pointed back to these larger structural crises honestly, 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:32.360 and lack of resources that kind of led to lack 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.640 of choices or feeling like lack of agency, and how 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:38.960 you wanted ambition to inform your life and your choices. 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:42.080 So I think that I think that, as wild as 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:45.000 it sounds, that was kind of the common thread. The 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:47.360 other one that surprised me that I really didn't expect 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:50.800 going into it is how many people wanted to talk 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:55.400 about ambition. There are so many important interviews with such 0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:58.880 incredible people that did not make it into the final 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:00.960 copy of this book, just because we only had so 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:03.800 many pages and we only had so many words, And 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:07.560 as my editor can attest to, I really tried to 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:11.360 fit them all in because they're all important. But I 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:15.040 was astounded by how many people were willing to sit 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:18.400 and talk with me sometimes for hours about this and 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:20.760 how they felt like it had impacted their sense of 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:21.720 self and their life. 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:26.400 That lack of agency that you mentioned sticks out to me, 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:29.520 at least personally, any moment in my life that I 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:33.240 have felt burnt out now that you mention, it does 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:34.040 feel like. 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:35.400 I just don't have a choice. 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:37.280 I have to keep working because I have to pay 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:39.480 my bills or I have to just get through the 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:41.800 next month. And it is that lack of agency that 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:45.480 is so exhausting. I've never thought of it that way, absolutely, and. 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:48.680 I think we see that all the time across all 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:53.640 different fields of work and experiences. It's low wages, it's 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:57.600 lack of paid leave, it's not having access to universal 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:01.440 health care, universal basic income, or care infrastructure, all of 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:04.399 these things that people pointed to in the book is 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:09.120 solutions that would actually allow them to be more ambitious 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:12.560 about things that they care about more deeply. And I 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:15.320 think that's one of the takeaways that I had, is 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:19.800 we really can help create a more sustainable version of ambition, 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:23.680 a more imaginative version of ambition if people have more 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:25.639 autonomy and more resources. 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:29.920 So there's a woman named Kendra in your book, and 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:35.639 she starts to self medicate. She's exhausted, she's not feeling well, 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:39.320 and you write. Rather than the workload slowing down to 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:42.760 account for a deadly virus, her workload increased as she 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.680 worked from home with the company of her cat. She says, 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:47.919 I just started to self medicate. I didn't even have 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.480 the energy to address what was going on. I was 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:54.720 drinking beyond excess. And that stood out to me because 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:58.440 I heard a version of that story so often throughout COVID. 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:01.600 There was something about the isolation of working from home, 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:05.640 the uncertainty coupled with it, and then just the immense 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:06.840 pressure of work. 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:10.800 What's the line between burnout and exhaustion? 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:15.680 Ooh? First of all, Kendra is an incredible human being. 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:19.159 I am so honored to have that conversation in the 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:22.600 book and so grateful for what was shared in that conversation. 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:28.400 I think line between burnout and exhaustion. I think, first 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:30.200 of all, they go hand in hand and they relate 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:33.280 to each other. I think that one kind of begets 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:38.080 the other. I think that when we're burnt out. To me, 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:43.200 burnout is a systemic and structural crisis. Burnout is not something, 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:45.560 in my opinion, that you are going to lay down 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:48.119 on the couch and have a lazy weekend and emerge 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:51.960 feeling refreshed and renewed come Monday morning. I think burnout 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:56.919 is a depletion of resources, a lack of access to meaningful, 0:18:57.000 --> 0:19:00.639 sustainable support, and I think a lack of access to 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:05.920 sustainable work or personal situations overall. I think exhaustion can 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:08.240 come from burnout and be a result of burnout, But 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:12.120 to me, exhaustion is something where we need to take 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:15.359 care of ourselves, where we know we need that rest. Burnout, 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:21.440 I think is the aftermath of total structural crises that 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:25.040 have dumped the burden of those crises on individuals and 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:27.919 told them, if you work a little bit harder, if 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:30.320 you do a little bit more, if you log more hours, 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:33.000 it's all going to be okay. And I think what 0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:37.520 people are narrating all over the place is that it's 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:40.879 really not okay, and that the work is not fixing 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:44.200 any problems. In some ways, it is creating more of them. 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:46.119 Have you felt burnt out before? 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:50.640 Oh my gosh. Honestly, I think in retrospect, I think 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:53.600 when I started having this loss of ambition or this 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:57.680 crisis of ambition, I think I was so burnt out 0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:00.280 and so fried, I don't even think I would have 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:03.239 been able to articulate that to you. I think I 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:07.359 was so far gone and so focused on just trying 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:10.320 to hold all of these really heavy things that were 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:13.840 happening in my life together that I didn't realize that 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:16.640 I was burning the candle at both ends and down 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:19.800 the middle. And I'm saying with a lot of privilege. 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:22.639 I am a white woman. I was able to work 0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:26.000 from home throughout the pandemic. I do have access to 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:29.600 a lot of resources that most people just don't. And 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:35.200 so I grappled with does this classify as burnout? Is 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:37.520 that what this is? Should I be able to push 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.960 through this? I am? Should I be able to handle it? 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:43.399 And I think it finally hit the point where the 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:46.280 question was no longer can you handle it? Or should 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:48.520 you be able to handle it? It's that you're just not. 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:53.720 And I think that that moment of just total surrender 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.840 and kind of emotional collapse stemmed, in a lot of 0:20:56.840 --> 0:20:58.120 ways from being burnt out. 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:03.040 So I'm going to admit something to you that feels embarrassing. 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:06.040 I used to think that burnout was kind of a myth. 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:12.880 I am very wary of colloquialisms, especially on the internet, because, 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:15.800 for instance, self care, I think we've totally co opted 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:19.800 self care, and the actual meaning of self care is important. 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:23.600 The way like beauty brands have taken it over, I 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:24.960 think is really damaging. 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:26.000 So that's just an example. 0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:28.240 And I used to feel that way about the word 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:30.920 burnout because I had heard it online all the time, 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:34.080 and I never really, I never felt like anybody got 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:35.760 to the meat of what it was. I was like, Oh, 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:40.919 you're tired, take a nap. And then this year I 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:43.679 got to a point where and I won't bore you 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:46.440 with the steps leading up to it, but I got 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:48.639 to a point where I was in New York for 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:52.520 work and I pushed through that final day of work 0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:58.119 and I got to my friend's house and I collapsed 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:02.399 on the couch and I started and they said what's like, 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:03.080 what's wrong? 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:03.840 And I tried to. 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:07.639 Explain it, and they were like, well, it sounds like 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:10.600 you need to rest. And the words out of my 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:14.000 mouth were this, there is no amount of sleep that 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:17.480 can cure what I'm feeling like. There's no amount of rest. 0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:20.119 It's not about rest. But I didn't have the words 0:22:20.119 --> 0:22:22.600 to explain what was going on, and your book gave 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:26.040 me those words. I've never heard anybody articulate it the 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:30.640 way you do because it's sort of this obtuse philosophical 0:22:30.840 --> 0:22:34.679 idea and you made it really, really practical. But you 0:22:34.760 --> 0:22:37.840 don't think of ambition as a negative thing. You're just 0:22:37.920 --> 0:22:41.560 calling out the systemic issues there. So I guess that 0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:44.760