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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff? Mom never told

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Speaker 1: you from House Towards dot com. Hey, and welcome to podcast.

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Speaker 1: This is Molly Edmonds and this is Kristen Conger. You know,

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Speaker 1: we don't usually say our last names when we say

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Speaker 1: hello to you all, but today to be talking about

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Speaker 1: maiden names. And since neither Kristen nor I are married,

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Speaker 1: old big since for old maids, we can talk about

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Speaker 1: our maiden names. Since we still have them, we're still

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Speaker 1: clinging onto them for dear life. You know, my father

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Speaker 1: sends me emails about keeping my maiden name when I

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Speaker 1: get married. He would rather I stay in Edmunds. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like Conger. That's a nice ring to it. Kristen and Conger.

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Speaker 1: You know there's a town um called Edmunds, Washington out

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Speaker 1: in Seattle. Should move there where I used to live,

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Speaker 1: and it's just a darling town. When my father and

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Speaker 1: I went out there, we took pictures with literally everything

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Speaker 1: that had Edmunds on it. At one point, Chris and

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Speaker 1: I give you not this pickup truck drove by. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what this truck was for. Um, but the

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Speaker 1: back of the truck said Princess of Edmunds. And my

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Speaker 1: dad was like, getting the truck and get your picture

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Speaker 1: and uh and I mean, I hope the people who

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Speaker 1: actually owned the truck didn't see that. But I've got

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Speaker 1: a great picture with with Princess of Edmunds over it.

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Speaker 1: She posted on our blog, how too sa related to

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Speaker 1: nothing but just you know, well, the reason we've got

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Speaker 1: maiden names on the brain, Molly, is because of a

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Speaker 1: survey that was recently released came from Indiana University found

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Speaker 1: that seventy percent of the survey respondents thought that women

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Speaker 1: should give up they're maiden names assumed their husband's name

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Speaker 1: when they get married. And even more surprisingly, I thought,

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Speaker 1: I was it. Fifty of those respondents thought it should

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Speaker 1: become a legal requirement for a woman to take her

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Speaker 1: spouse's last name. Yeah, and this is not you know,

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Speaker 1: some men asserting their authority. Both men and women were

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Speaker 1: in this survey And the fact that you know, people

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Speaker 1: wanted to be a legal requirement is so bizarre to

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Speaker 1: me because we already have so many people fighting against

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Speaker 1: laws about um, you know, what you can do when

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Speaker 1: you get married and who can get married? And all

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Speaker 1: this stuff that you wouldn't think that all of the

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Speaker 1: su people would want to law about changing your name

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Speaker 1: after you get married. Right, And as we will talk

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Speaker 1: about a little later in the podcast, UM, a lot

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Speaker 1: of those similar kinds of laws have been struck down

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Speaker 1: a long time ago, So it seems like we would

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Speaker 1: be taking a legal, big old backwards step in where

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Speaker 1: to pass something like that. But um, right now, only

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Speaker 1: about five to ten percent of women who get married

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Speaker 1: keep their their maiden name. Right. There was another recent

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Speaker 1: survey done by the not and about eighty eight percent

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Speaker 1: of women and UM, I think there were eighteen thousand

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Speaker 1: couple surveyed we're going to uh change their name. So

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Speaker 1: maybe it's not even an issue. Maybe everyone just changes

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Speaker 1: their name regardless. But it seems like, you know, you

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Speaker 1: hear a lot about the famous hyphenated name. UM, you know,

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Speaker 1: women keeping their names. It seems like this big deal,

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Speaker 1: and yet so many women just go along with tradition. Well,

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Speaker 1: and it is a big deal. With that same survey

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Speaker 1: that you mentioned from the not dot Com, of those

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Speaker 1: respondents said that, um, this name change factor was the

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Speaker 1: biggest post marriage change for them. And I remember when

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Speaker 1: my sister um got married. She it was a big

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Speaker 1: deal for her. I remember talking to her about it.

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Speaker 1: She thought long and hard about what to do UM

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Speaker 1: with conger and um for for her privacy. I will,

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Speaker 1: I will, you know, not not talk about the details,

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Speaker 1: but it was it was, you know, a big deal

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Speaker 1: for her because she was worried about, you know, this

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Speaker 1: idea of losing her identity. You know, she did assume

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Speaker 1: her husband's name, but at the same time wanting to

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Speaker 1: respect tradition and all of that. So I think it's

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Speaker 1: definitely a big deal for women. And it seems that

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Speaker 1: the reason most women's site for changing their name is

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Speaker 1: just a matter of convenience, especially if you have kids.

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Speaker 1: It's just easy to be able to go to school

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Speaker 1: and have you know, four people all with the same

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Speaker 1: last name. But what are the reasons for not changing

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Speaker 1: your name. Let's go back to that. Let's go back

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Speaker 1: to the first woman who bucked tradition and did not

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Speaker 1: change her married name. Yes, this is a suffragette named

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Speaker 1: Lucy Stone who in the eighteen fifties, when she got

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Speaker 1: married to an abolitionist named Henry Blackwell at the age

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Speaker 1: of thirties seven, she decided to keep her name Lucy

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Speaker 1: Stone was going to remain Lucy Stone, and in women

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Speaker 1: founded the Lucy Stone League to devote themselves to this

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Speaker 1: cause of preserving women's names. Um. You know, that's when

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Speaker 1: you've got a lot of this women's right stuff kicking in.

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Speaker 1: But you know, even though women were getting more rights, um,

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Speaker 1: taking on greater roles in society, it didn't really catch on.

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Speaker 1: There weren't many, um, people who followed in Lucy Stone's

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Speaker 1: footsteps for a long time. Right. And at the time,

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Speaker 1: there were these things called head and master laws which

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Speaker 1: required women in some states to take a husband's name,

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Speaker 1: which is you know what I referred to earlier when

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Speaker 1: with people that respondents wanting similar laws to go back

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Speaker 1: on the books. Yeah, and it was. It's really kind

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Speaker 1: of scary. There are some states where you couldn't get

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Speaker 1: a driver's license unless you had your husband's last name. Um.

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Speaker 1: In Tennessee, for example, you couldn't register to vote unless

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Speaker 1: you had your husband's last name. And you know, then

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Speaker 1: if you had the last name and got divorced, you

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Speaker 1: couldn't take back your own name unless you could prove

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Speaker 1: definitively in court that the divorce was the husband's fault,

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Speaker 1: which I'm sure is not easy to do in a

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Speaker 1: court of law. Yeah, so there are all of these

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Speaker 1: restrictions um with a woman's last name. And then when

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Speaker 1: we have the rise of second wave feminism in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, we have a resurgence of this issue of

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Speaker 1: women keeping their last names when they get married, um.

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Speaker 1: And at that time that's when a lot of those

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Speaker 1: head and master laws are struck down and sort of

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Speaker 1: the changes that happened thanks to that way of feminism,

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Speaker 1: things like women marrying later, um, going on for higher

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Speaker 1: levels of education. People really started to realize that you

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Speaker 1: can make your name for you make this name for yourself,

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Speaker 1: especially if you were in a career like writing or

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Speaker 1: the arts, that would be really damaging to change later on.

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Speaker 1: So as women started to get married later, you know,

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Speaker 1: it just it didn't make sense to spend almost half

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Speaker 1: your life as one thing and then all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden switched to another. And that's when we really start

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Speaker 1: to see the big numbers of women keeping their names. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And then in the eighties you have more of a

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Speaker 1: trend towards um women hyphenating, you know, between like the

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Speaker 1: husband husband's last name and her last name, so there's

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Speaker 1: a little bit more of a compromise. And we came

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Speaker 1: across a study by researcher at Harvard University that was examining, UM,

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Speaker 1: how this this trend of women keeping their last names.

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Speaker 1: And she basically found that there was sort of a

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Speaker 1: spike in UM women keeping them in the seventies and eighties,

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Speaker 1: But then an interesting thing happened in the nineties when

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Speaker 1: that when that trend kind of plateaued and even dipped

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Speaker 1: down a little bit. Right. Uh, that same Harvard researcher

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Speaker 1: estimated twenty percent of women keeping their own last name.

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Speaker 1: By two thousand, it's down to sevent It's still pretty sizeable,

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Speaker 1: but we definitely are seeing a downward trend, uh for

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Speaker 1: reasons of convenience, UM. But also you know, one big

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Speaker 1: predictor of whether women are can keep their name is

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Speaker 1: a religious background, if they're getting writing a religious ceremony.

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Speaker 1: She went through uh, all these New York Times wedding

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Speaker 1: announcements and found usually that if there was a religious ceremony,

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Speaker 1: then the bride was more likely to take the husband's name.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting and I think from that same study, the

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Speaker 1: major predictors for whether or not a woman would keep

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Speaker 1: her name, or if she would get married at a

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Speaker 1: later age, whether or not she was in an arts

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Speaker 1: or writing career. Likes to say, we're not prime candidates

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Speaker 1: for changing her name. Uh and um, how how much

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Speaker 1: of a career she had built for herself? Right? And

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Speaker 1: you know sometimes it looks like the field of the

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Speaker 1: career matters. It's you know, she was looking at women

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Speaker 1: with graduate degrees, and as Kristen said, arts and writing

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Speaker 1: it's a much bigger predictor of changing your name than

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Speaker 1: something like having an MBA or being in the business field. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so we've talked about reasons why women might keep their names,

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Speaker 1: but you know, there's there's just sort of these weird

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Speaker 1: combinations that erupt I do have. Um, some friends who

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Speaker 1: made up an entirely new name for themselves. They took

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Speaker 1: four letters from the female's name and four letters from

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Speaker 1: the male's name, smashed them together, and that's the last name. Name.

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Speaker 1: Smash a name smash. It's got a fun actually it

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Speaker 1: sounds fun. But you know, we're reading this article in

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Speaker 1: Salon about how are you cutting you know, your children

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Speaker 1: off from any sense of family history. You know, you're

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Speaker 1: trying to give your kids the best of both worlds, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, an equal share in both their mother and

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Speaker 1: their father's side. But then do you end up with

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Speaker 1: these kids who just you know, are really kind of

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Speaker 1: cut off from both sides. And then with the issue

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Speaker 1: of hyphenated names. So you know, you you get married,

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Speaker 1: you hyphenate your name. You have a child, and he

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Speaker 1: or she has a hyphenated name. But what if you're

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Speaker 1: hyphenated child falls in love with another hyphenated child and

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Speaker 1: then they get married, So will their children be hyphenated

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Speaker 1: hyphenated children? I don't know. I mean, it just gets

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Speaker 1: complicated at some point. It's already hard enough, you know,

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Speaker 1: to get a really long last name on some government forms,

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Speaker 1: you know, just that one hyphenated person might have enough trouble,

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Speaker 1: and then you you gotta throw in the other name. Well,

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Speaker 1: there's always there's an option we have not talked about yet. Okay,

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Speaker 1: why can't the husband just take my name? Why can't

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Speaker 1: Why can't Mr Conger you know exist? Oh, Kristen, he can,

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Speaker 1: but he is going to have a lot of hoops

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Speaker 1: to jump through to do so, not only just you know,

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Speaker 1: the egging on of his friends. We were reading articles

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Speaker 1: about men who did try to take their wise last name.

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Speaker 1: We read one article about a guy who took his

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Speaker 1: wife's name and got a lot of feedback from his

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Speaker 1: friends that essentially amounted to, hey, bud, you need to

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Speaker 1: turn in your man card your man card. But the

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Speaker 1: fact that a man is willing to do that not

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Speaker 1: only shows some sort of you know, bucking up tradition,

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Speaker 1: but it's really hard to do, yeah, especially post nine eleven. Um,

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Speaker 1: changing your name for your legal name is not as

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Speaker 1: easy as it used to be. For a woman, it's

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Speaker 1: it's pretty simple when you get married. There. Um they're

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Speaker 1: actually kits, toolkits that you can buy forty bucks and

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Speaker 1: it's got all the documents in it for you to

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Speaker 1: sign and send off to get everything changed for you.

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Speaker 1: But for a guy to do it, he has to

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Speaker 1: spend a lot more money, a lot more time. It's

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Speaker 1: a legal process. Yeah, so it's kind of a complicated

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Speaker 1: legal process for men to go through. Um, but you know,

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Speaker 1: some men are doing a little bit of a compromise.

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Speaker 1: And I've seen couples where, um, the man and the

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Speaker 1: woman take both names, so you know, um, both of

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Speaker 1: you would become you know, let's say you're a guy

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Speaker 1: named Jones, both of you become like Conger Jones, which

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Speaker 1: you know, then you just have friends who are lazy

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Speaker 1: and refused to call you by your entire name, and

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Speaker 1: you get lazy too. It's not like you want to

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Speaker 1: always answer the phone and say, this is Kristen Conger Jones.

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Speaker 1: But what about um abroad, Molly, we're talking about last

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Speaker 1: name traditions in the States. I mean, other other countries

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Speaker 1: have a little more creative UM customs. Right in Russia,

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Speaker 1: they have what's known as the patron patronymic name, so

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Speaker 1: that if you're a girl, you get a feminized version

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Speaker 1: of both your of your father's In Russia, they have

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Speaker 1: this tradition of the patronymic name where you get um

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Speaker 1: if you're female, uh, feminized version of your father's name,

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Speaker 1: so that your middle name and your last name are

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Speaker 1: a feminine version of your father's name, and um. If

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Speaker 1: you're a male, you get sort of another kind of

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Speaker 1: male version of both names. That's why you know a

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Speaker 1: lot of people have trouble reading Russian literatures because everyone's

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Speaker 1: got the same name. If you're reading a book about

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Speaker 1: a father with his five kids, they all have the

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Speaker 1: same name. And then in over in Iceland, there's sort

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Speaker 1: of a similar uh patronymic custom where all of the

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Speaker 1: last names are basically translated as son of and then

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Speaker 1: you know, whatever the surname is, so it carries on

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Speaker 1: through the father father's line. But then you were telling

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Speaker 1: me about naming in Spain um where the rain stays

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Speaker 1: mainly on the plane, and it's really interesting, it's really

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Speaker 1: good using to me. I think I still need a diagram,

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Speaker 1: but tell me about what they do. It is a

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Speaker 1: little confusing and I and I do have a diagram

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Speaker 1: in front of me that that I did draw out,

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Speaker 1: and I remember learning this in Spanish class and it

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Speaker 1: took my brain for a minute to pick up on it.

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Speaker 1: But this is the custom in um, in Spain and

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Speaker 1: in Latin American countries that I think provides a nice

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Speaker 1: compromise because the first thing was a Spanish name is

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Speaker 1: you have you know, let's say Gabriel Garcia Marquez, one

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Speaker 1: of my faiths um Garcia Marquez is actually Garcia is

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Speaker 1: not his middle name. He actually has two surnames, or Ados,

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Speaker 1: and Garcia is his primary surname, and then Marques is

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Speaker 1: his secondary same surname okay, and Garcia he got from

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Speaker 1: his dad, and Marques comes from his mom. So that's

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Speaker 1: way everyone's name is. It's like your first name and

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Speaker 1: then the surname from your father, and then the surname

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Speaker 1: primary surname from your mother. So let's say the Gabriel

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Speaker 1: Garcia mar Kez gets married to oh, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: Frieda Carlo called her own okay, So Carlo comes from

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Speaker 1: her dad and called her own comes from her mom.

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Speaker 1: So she gets married. First of all, it's not really

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Speaker 1: a big deal in um Spanish culture for a woman

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Speaker 1: just to you know, keep her her name as is

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Speaker 1: when she gets married. But if she does decide to

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Speaker 1: take on her husband's name, she would then become Freelo

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Speaker 1: Frieda Carlo Garcia. So she takes on his primary surname

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Speaker 1: and turns it into her secondary surname. Got okay. So

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Speaker 1: the thing I like about that is even though you

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Speaker 1: might be taking a name from your husband, you're still

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Speaker 1: retaining technically your last name, like Calo is your primary surname,

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Speaker 1: and what would be um akin to our last names

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Speaker 1: you know in the States. But what if they have kids? Now,

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Speaker 1: if they have kids, this is what I also like

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Speaker 1: the child has a name from the father and from

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Speaker 1: the mother, so both sides are represented. So if uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, Gabriel and Frieda had a little baby, it

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Speaker 1: would be you know, uh McGill Garcia Carlo wow, and

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Speaker 1: their household would be known as the Garcia Carlos. So

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Speaker 1: it recognizes the union of both the man and you know,

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Speaker 1: the woman, and but you're still able to trace the lineage,

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Speaker 1: but it recognizes a different household. That's cool. So if

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Speaker 1: he lives next door to his father, it's be easy

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Speaker 1: to say that's that house and that's that. Yes, the

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Speaker 1: Garcia Marquez is as opposed to the Garcia Carlos, but

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Speaker 1: they're all part of the same line. Nice, I thought,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it's still you still are taking

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Speaker 1: the the paternal surnames that end up tracing down the line.

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Speaker 1: But the woman still is able to keep that linked

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Speaker 1: to her family and to pass on her her name

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Speaker 1: from her family to her children. You know, it's interesting

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Speaker 1: you bring up paternal surnames because I would say that

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Speaker 1: even if women have this you know, internal dilemma about

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Speaker 1: whether to keep their name or not, there's usually, you know,

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Speaker 1: very rarely a question that the kids will get the

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Speaker 1: father's last name. I can only think of one instance,

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Speaker 1: write a co worker. Um, she was female and she was,

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Speaker 1: you know, the only side of that family that was

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Speaker 1: me like the only grandchild, and the father's side had

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Speaker 1: a lot of grandchildren. Said they gave the kid the

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Speaker 1: mother's last name. But there was this really interesting blog

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Speaker 1: um on psychology a day that talked about the reason

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Speaker 1: that we're so hung up on giving our kids their

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Speaker 1: father's name is because it's sort of this reinforcement of

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Speaker 1: the fact that the baby is theirs and they should

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Speaker 1: invest in it and you know resources. Yeah, and because

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Speaker 1: there's never really any question of whether or not you

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Speaker 1: are your mother's child. It's it's kind of a given.

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Speaker 1: But but with the there might be more of a question.

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Speaker 1: And so this guy is saying that, you know, it

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Speaker 1: goes back to evolutionary biology of you know, a woman

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Speaker 1: wanting you know, to entice you know, the man to

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Speaker 1: invest resources and his children. So she's gonna say, hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna you know, this is your child, that is

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Speaker 1: your last name, so go hunt and gather. But um,

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Speaker 1: but the nice thing, you know, we were talking about

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Speaker 1: all these weird choices, you know, they're not well, they're

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Speaker 1: not weird. But we have all these choices today, despite

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Speaker 1: the fact that many women are just choosing to go

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Speaker 1: a tradition. But the nice thing this kind of ties

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Speaker 1: back to what we were talking about in our feminism

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Speaker 1: podcast is that, you know, people might think that feminists

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Speaker 1: would be really disappointed in us with all this work

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Speaker 1: they did to keep your own identity, keep your own name,

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Speaker 1: But the fact that men have this choice and exercise

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Speaker 1: the choice is actually sort of a perfect demonstration of

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Speaker 1: how feminism has worked for us. Yeah, and it is

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Speaker 1: a personal decision. I mean, it's a you know, going

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Speaker 1: back to that survey from the not that said that

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Speaker 1: you know, sixt of the response said, you know, this

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Speaker 1: is one of the biggest issues going into two marriage

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Speaker 1: and it's and it's a personal decision for a couple

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Speaker 1: to talk about. And you know, if you need to compromise,

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Speaker 1: you ne'd be able to come to a compromise. If

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Speaker 1: you want to hyphenate, you want to make a name smash,

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Speaker 1: you want to you know, keep your own name, he

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Speaker 1: should take your name. Whatever, it's something you should talk

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Speaker 1: about it. And Moly, I think it will be interesting

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Speaker 1: too in the coming years when we have um to

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Speaker 1: see how the rise of civil unions in gay marriage,

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Speaker 1: how that might kind of change this whole concept too,

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Speaker 1: if that will kind of lessen the social stigma around it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So I've always said I'm only gonna change if it's

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Speaker 1: esthetically pleasing to me, and I think that's a big

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Speaker 1: consideration for people. Yeah. One of my sisters um names

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Speaker 1: once you got married, her first and last name now rhyme. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I don't want to be Molly, you Wally?

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Speaker 1: Or do I? Or do you? Well? We would like

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Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts on this. Do you think that

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Speaker 1: women should keep their maiden names when they get married

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Speaker 1: or um? Do you think it doesn't matter just go

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Speaker 1: with what's easy. And if you did change your name,

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Speaker 1: did you struggle with it, do you have it's your

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Speaker 1: own name? Or if you kept your name, did you

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Speaker 1: how that? How how'd that go? Basically, we want to

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Speaker 1: hear every single keep point on this issue you possibly have.

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Speaker 1: We want to know your thoughts. And speaking of knowing

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Speaker 1: your thoughts, it is a good time now, Molly for

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Speaker 1: a little bit of listener mail. This weekend listener mail,

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about polygamy. We got some interesting

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Speaker 1: feedback on our polygamy podcast. Um uh Tessin. And I

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Speaker 1: don't know where Tessin is from, but Tessin wrote in

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Speaker 1: and he um he is a Muslim, and he wanted

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Speaker 1: to comment on polygmy podcast. And he said, the translation

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Speaker 1: from the Koran that you quoted is correct. However, you

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Speaker 1: did fail to mention another verse, and this is from

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Speaker 1: Sarah chapter four, verse one, ye are never able to

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Speaker 1: do justice between wives, even if it is your ardent desire,

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Speaker 1: but turned not away from a woman altogether, so as

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Speaker 1: to leave her as it were hanging in the air.

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Speaker 1: And he says, some scholars believe that if you take

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Speaker 1: this first into account, when looking at the meeting of

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Speaker 1: a prior verse, it suggested marrying two, three, or four

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Speaker 1: women is okay um. But this verse basically says that

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Speaker 1: since you can ever treat your wives equally, that polygamy

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Speaker 1: is then forbidden. He says, Now, I completely understand that

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Speaker 1: this is not what is practiced in the Middle East,

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Speaker 1: but I just wanted to shed some light on the subject.

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Speaker 1: I'm not trying to defend Islam as much as show

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Speaker 1: that some cultural ideologies or old traditions may come into

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Speaker 1: play when there's a disagreement or lack of consensus among

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Speaker 1: scholars about what particular verses mean. And myself, I'm a

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Speaker 1: halfway married Musliman who's never considered and will never consider

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Speaker 1: polygamy because I do not think it just right. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So that's a very interesting perspective. And then we got

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Speaker 1: in another email from Samuel who had a lot to say. Um,

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Speaker 1: And two of the points he brought up that I

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Speaker 1: thought were interesting was he he saw a documentary b

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Speaker 1: y U from a modern polygma spokesperson who was defending polygamy,

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Speaker 1: and uh, he thought it was The guy made an

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Speaker 1: interesting argument saying that polygamy is regarded as taboo and wrong,

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Speaker 1: but at the same time, our culture seems to respect

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Speaker 1: and promote men who sleep around with many women and

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Speaker 1: maybe have even fathered multiple children, making them seem cool

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Speaker 1: and hip living and cohabitation and uh, not committing to anyone.

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Speaker 1: Yet when you have a man who tries to form

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Speaker 1: a committed relationship with several women and provide for them

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Speaker 1: and take care and take care of them, it suddenly

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Speaker 1: becomes wrong and evil. It seems backwards to me. Interesting thought,

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Speaker 1: and then um, I liked this when he says, this

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Speaker 1: is just from my point of view, but there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of scumbag men out there, as the stereotype promotes,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of good women, for example, single mothers

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Speaker 1: who are good and trying to live an honest life,

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Speaker 1: who get abandoned by men and such. It deserved to

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Speaker 1: be with someone equally as good and committed and honest.

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Speaker 1: And I think that women are usually better and more righteous,

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Speaker 1: more righteous than men anyway. Um, so so many good

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Speaker 1: women and so little good men. Why not practice colignies

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Speaker 1: so that all the good, so that all can enjoy

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Speaker 1: the goodness that comes from marriage and relationships. Wow, interesting perspective, Samuel,

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Speaker 1: that is an interesting perspective. And one more on blog.

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Speaker 1: I mean this is from Sean Lee. I hope I'm

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Speaker 1: pronouncing that correctly. And you know, Christine, when we did

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Speaker 1: that podcast, we kind of started off with Big Love

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Speaker 1: and then transitioned into this perhaps utopian world where women

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Speaker 1: have these choices, and Sean Lie lives in Utah and

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Speaker 1: wanted to make sure that we know that, you know,

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Speaker 1: the realities of polygamy and Utah are nothing like Big Love,

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Speaker 1: and that women don't have these choices, so she wrote

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Speaker 1: in that um, right, women in these situations do not

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Speaker 1: have choice of any kind. Most often, the sexual relations

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Speaker 1: in these marriages are quite literally situations of rape. Not

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Speaker 1: only are they severely under educated, they are also taught

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Speaker 1: from birth that they are inferior to men, have been

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Speaker 1: treated as such all their lives, and are often bought

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Speaker 1: and sold like chattel. Um. But then she goes on

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Speaker 1: once she talks about sort of the role of women

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Speaker 1: in Utah. UM. Other untold victims of polygamy and Utah

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Speaker 1: and this lifestyle are the young boys. Um. Contrary to

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Speaker 1: our podcast, polygamy is not plagued with too many men,

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