WEBVTT - From the Vault: Astronomical Suffering and the Terran Diaspora 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:07.920 Hey, welcome to stuff to blow your mind. This is 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:11.160 Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and today it's a 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:15.960 vault episode. This one originally aired April. It was called 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:19.840 Astronomical Suffering and the Terran Diaspora. I think this one 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:22.520 was about a bunch of weird thought experiments about like 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:26.119 how many humans there could ultimately be and how miserable 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:28.640 it would be okay for them to be in the 0:00:28.640 --> 0:00:31.760 far reaches of space. Yeah, so it's, uh, you know, 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:34.800 it's it's a darker episode, but it's it's big darkness 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:38.920 and not like like like small sort of relatable darkness. 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:46.159 For the most part. We hope you enjoy. You've finally 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:50.000 done it. For so long, the solution alluded to you. 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:53.320 You explored every angle and pursued the answer in the 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:57.480 waking world of mathematics and the fragmented landscape of dreams. 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:02.360 But here it is this erinny An engine, a functional 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:06.720 technological means of transporting humanity not only at greater speeds 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:11.040 between planets, but two other stars. You fall to your 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:14.640 knees before it's golden splendor. You swipe through the air 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:18.000 at your side and summon a holographic keypad. It's time 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:21.760 to tell the corporation what you've achieved. But before you 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:25.600 can initiate the command, the air shimmers with a strange energy. 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:28.840 A flash of panic burns through you as you fear 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:33.320 some unforeseen side effect of the engine's power, reality parts, 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:37.600 and a glowing figure slips through the incision. It speaks 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:42.399 to you in a voice like a whisper. Professor, what 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:46.000 are you? I am the messenger from the future age, 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:52.080 come to warn you impossible, paradoxical, no more so than 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:55.240 your engine. It must be destroyed. Then you have come 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:59.080 to kill me. I cannot, but you can be Activate 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:03.240 this machine, scatter its plans to the four winds, and 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.760 leave the future untarnished by its power. But why should 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:09.320 I do that? I built it to open up the cosmos, 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:13.640 to spread humanity beyond Earth, to safeguard us against destruction, 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:18.160 and in doing so create hell worlds beyond number places 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:22.440 with the descendants of humanity writhe and poverty, misery and pain. 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:27.040 The mass of their collective suffering dwarfs all of humanity's 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:31.200 achievements in my time, reducing the human experience to a 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:34.760 median of immoral horror. And I know, for I have 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:37.880 walked the mire and ruin of each world. I have 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:40.960 looked into their eyes. And I ask you now, in 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:44.120 the hope that no one else will retrace your steps, 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:53.639 to please turn off the machine. Welcome to Stuff to 0:02:53.639 --> 0:03:03.240 Blow Your Mind production of My Heart Radio. Hey you, 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:05.120 welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:08.000 Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And today we wanted 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:09.760 to talk about the question of, hey, what if we 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:15.600 accidentally turn the Milky Way into a living hell? That's right, you, 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:20.120 We're getting into this topic um of astronomical suffering. And 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:21.840 we we tried to make sure the title had a 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:25.400 spin of far future science fiction to it, and we 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:29.040 decided to kick things off with a nice hefty slice 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:32.240 of original sci fi uh to, you know, to firmly 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:35.600 ground the conversation, because this is gonna be a conversation 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:39.360 that gets into a lot of far future territory, speculative 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:44.280 science fiction territory, but ultimately wrestling with some some real 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:49.760 philosophical considerations about the nature of humanity and and how 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:53.360 we go about our decision making. Yeah, so, one thing 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:56.200 that this topic makes me think about, maybe a good 0:03:56.200 --> 0:04:00.920 place to start is how much of few sure thinking 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:03.960 among people, you know, people who like to think about 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:08.840 the far future, just assumes space colonization as a given, like, 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:12.600 does not interrogate the idea at all, does not say, like, 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:15.360 you know, would it be good to colonize other planets, 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:18.320 other star systems and stuff. It just assumes, yeah, I mean, 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:20.600 of course that's what you do. Humans. You know, they 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:22.680 spread over the surface of the Earth, and now they'll 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:25.880 keep spreading on into other little rocks in space. But 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:28.039 the science fiction was so concerned with the question of 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:29.920 whether or not it could it didn't stop to think 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:34.320 of it should. Yes, the the Ean Malcolm uh factor 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:38.760 often features into our conversations here because yeah, for for many, 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:42.720 if not most of us, colonization of other worlds has 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:46.040 kind of always seemed humanity's destiny. And you know, part 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:49.839 of it is simply the extrapolation of our terrestrial ideals 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:54.200 and ambitions and just the sort of flow of of 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:56.880 world history. We're just taking that in applying it to 0:04:56.960 --> 0:05:00.480 other worlds. Are species spread from continent to continent, finally 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:04.359 overtaking every last uh, you know, truly habitable island in 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:07.680 the global ocean. And so we've long dreamt a voyaging 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:11.799 off planet to whatever islands of life or potential life 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:16.040 we might find or create in this cosmic ocean. Now, 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:18.240 I know most of you consume science fiction, so we 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:21.520 don't have to tell you how pervasive the dream happens 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:24.000 to be. You know, Star Trek continues to stand as 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:27.440 a towering, optimistic example of how this might play out, 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:29.960 but we also see it in all manner of sci 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:33.560 fi visions, you know, from the near future, gritty world 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:37.840 of something like the expanse or altered carbon you know, 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:43.400 to far reaching worlds like done Star Wars, the Culture Series, 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:46.760 and many, many, many more. I think Dune might be 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:48.839 a good example for us to keep in mind throughout 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:51.920 this episode, though, because while I don't recall in Dune 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:54.800 there being much of a question about the general project 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:58.719 of colonizing worlds other than the humanity's origin on Earth, 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:03.120 um doing at least does present a vision of a 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:09.200 planet that is both inhabited and completely crappy, just completely 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:13.479 inhospitable in every way, like we shouldn't be there, and 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:16.120 yet we're there because we have to be now and done. 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:19.880 That's because of demand for a particular resource that's only 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:22.919 generated on this planet, but you can imagine other scenarios 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:25.120 where there could be a planet that's are just really 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:28.839 not hospitable to human life in any way, except we 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:31.280 just have to be there, maybe because it is the 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:35.400 only rock that we can stand on within reach. Yeah. 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:38.599 And there's also that kind of Nietzschean quality to some 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:41.360 of the world's too, like because there's of course Iracus, 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:44.560 and then there's the home world of the Sarticle or 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:47.479 the the you know, the elite soldiers of the Empire, 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:50.839 which is described as a quote unquote hell world. The 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:54.159 idea that it's just so brutal there that it it 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:59.280 creates the super soldiers, and of course Aracus creates their 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:03.640 own eat Um fighting force as well. Uh So, Yeah, 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:05.719 I think Dune is a great one to continually return 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:08.280 to the I think the world of the Sardi Car 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:10.120 Troops come from. It's supposed to be sort of like 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:13.280 the planet where the superman villain Doomsday comes from, right 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:16.600 where it's just like made stronger and stronger by by 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:19.840 being subjected to every form of punishment and suffering day 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:22.960 in day out. Yes, yeah, exactly, and and that that 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:25.840 idea is covered in I think some other works as well. 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:28.320 I know, uh in in Banks in the Culture series 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:30.680 has a has a species it shows up that is 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:33.680 biologically immortal, and part of that is tied to the 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:39.000 fact that it emerges from such a hostile and competitive ecosystem. 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:42.400 Uh that, like natural death was just never part of 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:46.040 its of its physiology, you know. I will say there's 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:48.880 another science fiction book that I've talked about on the 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:50.920 show before. I think I recommended it one year for 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:54.440 summer reading that I really enjoyed, specifically because it asks 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:58.360 a question along these lines. It's uh, Kim Stanley Robinson's 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:01.760 novel Aurora, which is about Generation starship that has a 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:05.000 colonization mission, um, you know, trying to go to another 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:09.080 star system and colonize another habitable planet. But a big 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:11.920 theme of that book is the question of just like 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:16.560 how how special Earth might be and ways in which 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:20.720 we we don't realize that leaving Earth is just abandoning 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:24.800 everything that we depend upon and everything that makes life good. 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:27.760 And so ultimately there is kind of a question in 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:30.239 the book like, well, maybe should we should we actually 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:33.520 have our sight set on other planets, Maybe there's something 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:37.760 inescapably perfect about Earth, and instead we should focus on 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:41.199 making Earth as habitable as possible for as long as possible. 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:45.440 Um and and I remember, I think reading some reviews 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:48.760 of this book that criticized it essentially as being like 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:52.040 pessimistic and a down er for for in some ways 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:55.720 being characterized as anti space exploration, which I'm not sure 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:59.240 the book exactly is, but it at least explores possibilities 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:02.480 in that space, which I which I think is fascinating 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:06.320 and very worth considering. Yeah, I think the and and 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:08.439 you know, actually a Christian and I record an episode 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:10.960 years ago called the Case Against Space that went into 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:15.400 some cases that could be made against spending time and 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:19.640 resources and money on on space exploration, you know, just 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:22.080 to explore the other side. But but I think that 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:24.480 one thing we get into here is the kind of 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:29.360 like soft futurism that we sometimes engage in, like without 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:33.600 really thinking long and hard about the rigors of creating 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:37.120 an off world colony, of say, colonizing and terraforming Mars. 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:39.080 You just kind of tuck it away in the back 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:40.720 of your mind, is like, oh, well, we have a 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:44.000 plan B and and and and in reality we we 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:46.480 don't really have a plan B. There is no earth 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:51.920 to um you were talking about very um inhospitable worlds, 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:57.480 extreme environments, places that are even the closest uh locations, 0:09:57.480 --> 0:09:59.880 we could go to our far far away and and 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:02.880 we've touched on the the like the challenges of of 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:07.320 Mars on the show before. But it's it's a danger 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:10.560 to to just sort of categorize that casually in the 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:12.719 back of your head, is like a reason to not 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:17.840 fully invest in the health of this planet. Yeah, totally. Uh, Yeah, 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:19.880 you don't want to be going around thinking like, well, 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:23.840 we got a backup plan. Yeah, I mean, long term 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:28.480 we might, but that is in no way a guarantee. Yeah, 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:30.400 but but I do want to stress that, you know, 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:34.960 speaking for myself, I certainly still buy into this this future. 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:37.839 I think it is an optimistic vision for the future 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:41.040 for the most part. But like all all things considering 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:42.680 the future, you know, we have to we have to 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:45.120 have a balance of optism and realism, and you have 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:48.640 to entertain some of the worst case scenarios as well. 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:50.800 Oh totally. I mean I want to be clear that 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:53.160 in talking about this today, we're not trying to make 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:56.520 the case that space colonization is bad. We're just saying 0:10:56.720 --> 0:11:00.480 here are some questions to consider exactly. Yeah, because I 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:04.160 think a large part of this whole dream's vision of 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:08.120 expanding to other worlds, it's based in humanity's innate desire 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:11.880 to explore and expand. It's our scientific zeal, uh, you know, 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:15.040 and this is part of what makes humanity great. Though 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:18.600 it also leaches into our vanity and pride and more 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:21.480 to the point, it is an eventuality that our space 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:25.760 programs continue to work towards, you know, such dreams, uh, 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:30.280 sci fi visions have animated the best minds among us 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:33.960 for decades and decades, and it seems ultimately a question 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:37.559 of when, not if a human being will, for instance, 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:40.040 ever stand on the surface of Mars. Well. I think 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:42.840 another reason that the idea of space exploration is so 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:46.200 popular among like optimistic future thinking people is like it 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:49.520 seems like it is the half of adventure that is 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:52.920 not that is not antagonistic and violent. I mean, I 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:56.000 would say adventure has two main components. One is like 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.200 exploration and discovery and the other is kind of this 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:02.360 violent on quest thing. And you know, and we like 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:05.719 the sense of adventure, but maybe we we want a 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:09.760 way to have adventure that doesn't involve subjugation and violent 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:14.000 conquest of whatever you find when you get somewhere, and so, uh, 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:17.520 the and so space exploration seems like a perfect candidate 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:20.560 for that kind of spirit of adventure, right to fulfill 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:23.800 that drive without doing something harmful. Maybe they're there are 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:27.079 these dead rocks out in the universe that we could 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:30.600 adventure too, and we could explore without having to make 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:33.680 it into a struggle of conquest in war. Does that 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:36.439 make sense? Yeah? Absolutely, yeah, Now certainly, you know, there's 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:39.360 sci fi visions that that drag those elements in, and 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:41.840 as we'll discuss, there are some It's it's not that 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:45.720 that space colonization is a risk free venture. It's not 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:48.199 like they're there are not things that we could potentially 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:51.280 break while out there. But but yeah, it does seem 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:55.000 an optimum miss. The idea of exploring Mars, for the 0:12:55.080 --> 0:13:00.680 most part, seems far less full of conflict and horror 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:05.120 than say, uh, you know Europeans history of exploring the 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:08.480 New World right now. Another huge angle to this, though, 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:11.280 is uh is that there is this idea that humanity 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:15.199 must eventually leave Earth in order to survive long term 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:19.080 in a dangerous universe and to thwart various existential risks. 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:21.920 Stephen Hawking was an advocate of this line of thinking, 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:26.079 among many others. Yeah, I mean, Stephen Hawking is not 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.120 wrong in saying this. I mean there are risks to 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:33.480 Earth and uh, here's here's an analogy maybe for for 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:36.480 people who are trying to like plan the retirement savings 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:38.920 or whatever. Is it good to put all of your 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:43.960 retirement savings in the stock of one company. Any any 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:46.640 investment manager or whatever would tell you don't do that. 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.920 You need to diversify your investments in order to make 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:52.240 sure that you know your that your money is safe. 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:55.040 You've got to invest in multiple different things, because if 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:58.440 something bad happens to one company and you're totally invested there, 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:01.520 you could lose everything. Some people, I think, look at 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:04.840 you know, the planetary habitation of humans in the long term, 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:08.680 the same way catastrophic things can happen to planets. There 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:13.000 there can be catastrophic changes to the biosphere of a planet. 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:16.960 And so if you don't spread out to other planets 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:20.720 over time, the risk just keeps accumulating more and more 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:23.560 that something is going to happen that will cause us 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:26.560 to blink out of existence. Yeah, and we discussed many 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:28.960 of these on the show Before you Know Things such 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:34.760 as near Earth objects potentially colliding with the planet, also 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:39.360 things bound to human technology like climate change, nuclear war, 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:44.320 and in other various examples, some some more futuristic than others, 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:50.360 but most given known potential existential risk, you know with 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:52.320 them there are there are certainly ways to attempt to 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:54.880 safeguard against them, at least as far as it's ones 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:58.360 that are technologically within our limits of control. Uh, Now, 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:01.960 can we control ourselves? Are? Arguably yes, that's possible, even 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:03.960 if it tends to not be the case a lot 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:06.680 of the time in human affairs. Can we track and 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:09.880 mitigate incoming in eos, Yeah, we're continuing to improve our 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:12.760 capabilities in that department. But as we get into long 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:15.800 term concerns about say the life of the sun, we'd 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.800 really need to be higher on the Karda Chef scale 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:21.400 to do anything about it. And then there's also the 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:25.040 issue of outside context problems, which is a which are 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:29.880 problems that by definition a civilization cannot anticipate. As I 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:32.440 and in Banks explained in the in his book Accession, 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:36.240 which is where the term was coined, most civilizations encounter 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:40.520 just a one outside context problem, and that is what 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:43.080 does them in Now you might be thinking, well, wait 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:45.680 a minute, what's an example of an outside context problem. 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:47.720 I guess the definition of it would be that it's 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:50.520 something that we're not really envisioning right now. But maybe 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:53.720 the easiest example would be an encounter with a with 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:59.080 a totally uh incomprehensible alien species or something. Yeah. Yeah, 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:02.400 that that's that's the big one. UM And certainly like 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:04.840 one example that is often thrown out. I think Banks 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:07.960 made this uh analogy as well, is if you are 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:11.480 one of the native people's of say South America, and 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:14.560 then European show up on your shore in these in 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:17.960 these ships with horses and all this technology. Um, it 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:21.240 is not something they anticipated. And there were and there 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:24.080 were other aspects of that problem that they just could 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:28.520 not anticipate, say the disease factor, and uh and they ultimately, 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:31.440 I mean they it's not that they were completely wiped out, 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:35.800 but obviously that whole situation was was an apocalypse for 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:38.480 the peoples of the New World. But another thing we 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:40.720 should emphasize again that you just mentioned a second ago, 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:42.760 is that, I mean, one thing we can be sure of, 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.760 even if we don't encounter any outside context problems is 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:49.120 there's basically an expiration date for life on Earth. That 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:52.040 has nothing to do with like stochastic events like a 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:54.800 near Earth object impacts or something. It's just going to 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:57.760 be the the lifespan of the Sun. Eventually, the Sun 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:00.120 is going to swell, it's going to turn into a 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:03.400 red giant, and and Earth will get too hot to 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:06.560 live on there. There will be no life here anymore. Yeah, 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:08.439 and and a lot of times this can seem like 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:11.440 ridiculous to worry about, right, but like, come on, humanity, 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:15.320 let's let's get through July. Uh, probably about the long 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:18.560 term survival of the human race and what happens when 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:21.080 when the Sun burns out of energy. I mean, we 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:25.920 think the habitable Earth is already probably more than halfway 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:27.840 through its lifespan. You know, Earth is about four and 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:31.600 a half billion years old, probably within um. You know, 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:33.119 it's hard to put an exact number on it, but 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:35.879 I think something like four billion years from now, we 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:38.440 can be pretty sure that that Earth is just gonna 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:40.840 be done like that. There will be no more life 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:43.680 here at that point. It will just be too hot. Now, 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:46.359 four billion years is a long time, right, you know 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:48.879 that that was enough time to for single cells to 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:52.640 evolve into humans who are capable of appreciating the RoboCop movies, 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:55.720 you know, So like, uh, it is a long time. 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:57.720 It's not like something you need to worry about tomorrow. 0:17:57.760 --> 0:17:59.919 But at the same time, if you are trying to 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.120 imagine the far future, something would have to happen if 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:05.920 we wanted to go on beyond that point. Yeah, and 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.480 I think that's reasonable though also, of course it is 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:13.159 we are talking about the far future. Um. So in 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:16.760 this episode we thought we'd explore some of the moral 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:21.640 arguments that are ultimately against the colonization of other worlds. 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:24.520 The concern, again, too, to quote Ian Malcolm, is not 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:26.919 can we do it? But should we do it? What 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:31.960 would the moral cost be uh to a true Taran diaspora, 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:35.400 if we were to expand beyond the earth, what would 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:37.840 it cost us? And would it be worth it? What 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:40.359 are some of the philosophical concerns here? Well, maybe we 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:41.920 should take a quick break and then when we come 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:46.840 back we can talk about them. All right, we're back. 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:50.359 So one of the key factors in this entire discussion 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:54.560 has to do with the morality of human existence and 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:55.840 and what you might think of a sort of the 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:59.760 media and human condition. Uh. So consider this question. Is 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:05.119 human existence on average a reality worth sustaining and propagating? Uh? 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:07.359 You know, I know obviously it's it's not like we 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:10.280 could do anything but that, I mean, that's what life does. 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:13.440 And we are we are life. No matter how self 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:16.600 aware we've become or how you know, self aware we've 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:19.359 come to believe we are, we are still just we 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:22.560 are life and life propagates. Yeah, and there are, of 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:26.080 course people who believe, you know, that humans should voluntarily 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:28.399 go extinct. That is actually a point of view some 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:31.080 people have. I kind of and I don't mean to 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:34.000 question everyone who says this, but with at least some 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:36.840 of the people who say that, I kind of question 0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:39.640 their sincerity. I mean with some of the people who 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.720 say that, I think they're probably just saying that to 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:46.240 be interesting or to be shocking, not because they really 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:50.200 believe humans should disappear, right, or to sort of expt 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:52.800 to over express a sentiment, you know, yeah, to to 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:55.640 sort of drive home a point like like I think 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.679 I've probably in the past, I've probably said something to 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:01.080 the effect that I would I would be totally cool 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:03.639 with the with the male gender going extinct and the 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:08.919 species becoming exclusively female. Um. But you know, now I 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:11.880 have a son, and uh, you know I can't rationally 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:14.639 make that argument, you know, um, and it and it 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:17.880 was ultimately, you know, not a completely rational argument. Maybe 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:20.400 you know, a little attention seeking and a little uh, 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:24.200 you know, trying to to to make a point, I suppose, 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:27.440 but uh but still, you know, all these sort of 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:30.959 questions and considerations do get into bigger questions about like 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:33.480 what are we doing? Like what is the what? And 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:35.920 what are we doing wrong? And then what is the 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:39.160 the overall shape of life? This is you know, real, 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:43.280 This is the meat of philosophy and theology. You know, 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:45.480 why is there so much suffering in the world? Is 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.960 life suffering? Does all the suffering make the good parts 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:52.480 worth having? Is a miserable life better than no life 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:55.600 at all? Are their fates worse than death? I mean? 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:58.440 This is These are questions we continue to wrestle with. 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:01.240 And then there's also the big, big question of inequality. Here. 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:05.120 If only a small fraction of the human population, such 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:07.399 as you know, the much touted one percent, or or 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:10.480 even some larger percentile, depending on what your parameters are, 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:13.840 if only this small fraction of the population has access 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:17.760 to true comfort, health, happiness, or whatever your gage happens 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:20.960 to be. Then what does that say about the overall 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:24.800 health of the system. If the popular idea of what 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:27.680 it is to be human is, say the lifestyle one 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:32.160 season a popular television show, be it Friends or the Kardashians, 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:34.680 or even like Seinfeld, you know, a nice sizeable apartment 0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:38.560 and all. Uh, then then how do we square how 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:43.040 out of proportion these visions are with our reality or 0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:46.240 sort of the standard reality on Earth. And likewise we 0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:50.399 might wonder which ideal we're envisioning, uh, to be installed 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:53.199 in an off world colony? What are we spreading to 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:56.919 other worlds beyond basic human presence and just sort of 0:21:56.960 --> 0:22:00.439 the staked flag of empire, or perhaps I really we 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:03.359 envisioned that such off world realities would encompass just a 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:06.320 vast array of emotional states, uh, you know, and that 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:09.159 things would even out tomorrow will be like today in 0:22:09.160 --> 0:22:10.920 the arc of the moral universe, you know, will will 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:13.680 been towards justice and so forth. So at this point 0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:16.000 I wanna I want to turn to this this subject 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:20.760 of astronomical suffering. Uh. And this comes from a paper 0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:26.040 by Marco Covid. Uh. Not to be confused with takishi kovacs, 0:22:26.280 --> 0:22:29.440 which we we referenced earlier. This is a k O 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:33.320 V I see, with the last part having a H 0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:37.760 pronunciation like in chocolate. So uh so. Covid is a 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:41.960 Swiss social scientist who is the co founder and CEO 0:22:42.040 --> 0:22:45.560 of the consulting firm Ours Cognitanis, and whose work has 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:49.760 been featured in Ian Magazine, among other places. He also 0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:52.720 has written extensively in German and the German language, and 0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:57.600 hosts a German language podcast titled din Katalier, which you 0:22:57.640 --> 0:22:59.359 can you can actually you can look up. It is 0:22:59.480 --> 0:23:02.520 d E K A T E l I E R 0:23:02.680 --> 0:23:06.640 dot x y z. So if you were a German speaker, uh, 0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:09.480 check that out. It's uh I would check it out 0:23:09.600 --> 0:23:13.400 if my German were not just the most basic level ever. 0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:17.120 Uh So, you wanted to do this topic today because 0:23:17.240 --> 0:23:20.200 you you read an article by Covids, right, Yeah. I 0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:24.080 published in UM. It's an open science framework publication titled 0:23:24.359 --> 0:23:28.439 Risks of Space Colonization. You can access the full paper 0:23:28.480 --> 0:23:30.600 online and I urge everyone to do so because it's 0:23:30.600 --> 0:23:32.720 a thought provoking read and it really puts the whole 0:23:32.840 --> 0:23:37.520 enterprise of off world colonies under philosophical scrutiny, not to 0:23:37.520 --> 0:23:39.119 say that he doesn't touch on ideas that I think 0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:42.240 are already out there in the in the zeitgeist and 0:23:42.320 --> 0:23:45.000 in the you know, the science fiction whole consideration of 0:23:45.000 --> 0:23:48.040 the future. But but it's really a great ride up. 0:23:48.440 --> 0:23:51.320 We're not going to go through everything Covid discusses here, 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:55.119 because he certainly discusses the risks and rewards of space colonization, 0:23:55.440 --> 0:23:59.960 including the notion that the acceleration of space colonization capability 0:24:00.160 --> 0:24:03.320 would just increase the existential risk coming at us, like 0:24:03.359 --> 0:24:08.040 all the technological ways that we could potentially destroy ourselves 0:24:08.119 --> 0:24:11.639 or make life worse on the planet, that being able 0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:16.000 to to move at great speeds, to have orbital you know, supremacy, 0:24:16.000 --> 0:24:19.119 that these things would just uh create more ways for 0:24:19.200 --> 0:24:21.280 us to hurt ourselves. I mean, I feel like we're 0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:26.440 doing a bad enough job already at avoiding species level risks. Yeah. Yeah, 0:24:26.480 --> 0:24:29.320 but when you consider potential technologies like you know, rods 0:24:29.359 --> 0:24:31.800 from God, and the idea that you know, you wouldn't 0:24:31.800 --> 0:24:36.040 even need explosives if you had orbital supremacy, if you 0:24:36.040 --> 0:24:38.159 had enough to just mass up there in orbit that 0:24:38.200 --> 0:24:41.159 you could drop down things like that it's the ultimate 0:24:41.240 --> 0:24:45.439 high ground. Yeah, exactly. And he also discusses contact with 0:24:45.480 --> 0:24:50.200 microbial extratractical extraterrestrial life, which we've discussed on the show before, 0:24:50.560 --> 0:24:56.600 secession and independence, reactionary colonies, intercolonial conflict, which is another 0:24:56.640 --> 0:25:00.920 topic we've definitely uh produced episodes on, and much much more. 0:25:01.280 --> 0:25:03.520 But I wanted to focus in on some of the 0:25:03.560 --> 0:25:06.679 other ideas the outlines here, such as the risk of 0:25:06.880 --> 0:25:12.960 moral catastrophes quote massively undesirable outcomes of engaging in space 0:25:13.000 --> 0:25:18.600 colonization but without any intent for or complacency towards doing harm. 0:25:18.920 --> 0:25:21.639 And the the first of these that he brings up is 0:25:21.680 --> 0:25:26.480 the astronomical populations ethics conundrum. And to better understand that, 0:25:26.680 --> 0:25:29.080 we have to first consider what is known as the 0:25:29.160 --> 0:25:33.000 repugnant conclusion. Yeah. So, um, if if we got any 0:25:33.200 --> 0:25:36.760 moral philosophy nerds out there, you will recognize this immediately. 0:25:36.800 --> 0:25:40.399 The idea of the repugnant conclusion is, uh it's a 0:25:40.480 --> 0:25:46.040 very popular question in the the domain of population ethics, 0:25:46.040 --> 0:25:48.720 the sub branch of ethics about how to know what's 0:25:48.720 --> 0:25:51.600 the right thing to do when considering the creation and 0:25:52.160 --> 0:25:56.280 maintenance of populations of people. Uh So, the repugnant conclusion 0:25:56.359 --> 0:25:59.480 is also known as the mere addition problem, and it 0:25:59.560 --> 0:26:03.199 was famous articulated by the British philosopher Derek Parfit in 0:26:03.240 --> 0:26:08.200 his nineteen four book Reasons and Persons. As often understood today, 0:26:08.240 --> 0:26:11.600 the repugnant conclusion takes the form of a paradox about 0:26:11.640 --> 0:26:15.240 our intuitions on population ethics. Uh. And there are a 0:26:15.240 --> 0:26:17.840 lot of ways of expressing or illustrating this paradox. But 0:26:17.880 --> 0:26:20.000 to make it as simple and as clear as I can, 0:26:21.000 --> 0:26:24.560 the repugnant conclusion is a statement like this, And this 0:26:24.640 --> 0:26:28.119 is a quote for from Derek Parfitt. Quote. For any 0:26:28.160 --> 0:26:32.240 possible population of at least ten billion people, all with 0:26:32.560 --> 0:26:36.160 very high quality of life, there must be some much 0:26:36.359 --> 0:26:40.959 larger imaginable population whose existence, if other things are equal, 0:26:41.280 --> 0:26:44.679 would be better, even though it's members have lives that 0:26:44.720 --> 0:26:49.040 are barely worth living. So that that sounds very counterintuitive, right, 0:26:49.119 --> 0:26:51.520 Like there's some number we don't know exactly what it is. 0:26:52.200 --> 0:26:56.000 Maybe maybe you know ten trillion people who might have 0:26:56.359 --> 0:26:59.639 all completely miserable lives, But it would be better for 0:26:59.720 --> 0:27:03.320 all those people to exist than for some smaller number 0:27:03.320 --> 0:27:06.480 of people to exist, all having good lives. Now, how 0:27:06.480 --> 0:27:09.760 on earth could you arrive at that conclusion. Well, let's 0:27:09.760 --> 0:27:13.040 illustrate with an example. Um, And of course I'm slightly 0:27:13.080 --> 0:27:17.240 oversimplifying here because this arises in a discussion alongside another 0:27:17.280 --> 0:27:21.400 complicated issue known as the non identity problem. And with 0:27:21.440 --> 0:27:25.000 respect to the repugnant conclusion, Parfit himself uses an argument 0:27:25.040 --> 0:27:28.879 with more steps and bar graphs and stuff representing hypothetical 0:27:28.960 --> 0:27:31.080 human groups and qualities of life. I'm just going to 0:27:31.160 --> 0:27:32.720 try to get to the heart of it in a 0:27:32.800 --> 0:27:35.479 simple and clear way. Let's say you're put in a 0:27:35.520 --> 0:27:39.920 weird experiment by a godlike consortium of cardassiev three level 0:27:39.960 --> 0:27:44.560 alien scientists who are so technologically powerful that they can 0:27:44.600 --> 0:27:47.120 make realities come in and out of being at will. 0:27:47.600 --> 0:27:50.720 And they give you two options. They give you the 0:27:50.760 --> 0:27:54.159 option to make one of two scenarios a reality. Robert, 0:27:54.480 --> 0:27:57.359 will you take this test? Yes, let's do it. Okay, 0:27:57.359 --> 0:28:01.280 So scenario one, you get too exist, but I do 0:28:01.400 --> 0:28:04.159 not get to exist. Imagine again, not really me. You 0:28:04.200 --> 0:28:07.120 don't know me. I'm just some hypothetical other person yet 0:28:07.160 --> 0:28:10.600 to be born. In your existence, you have a pretty 0:28:10.680 --> 0:28:13.399 nice life. You get really good food, you have a 0:28:13.480 --> 0:28:15.720 nice house, you get to hang out with friends and family, 0:28:16.280 --> 0:28:19.439 you have free time, get to exercise and experience nature. 0:28:19.720 --> 0:28:22.680 You get to read interesting books and pursue creative work. 0:28:23.000 --> 0:28:26.520 It's pretty great, but I don't exist at all. Now 0:28:26.560 --> 0:28:30.800 here's scenario to both you and I get to exist. 0:28:31.359 --> 0:28:34.560 You keep everything you had in the previous scenario. You 0:28:34.600 --> 0:28:38.920 get good material conditions, good relationships and social life, interesting 0:28:38.960 --> 0:28:43.600 creative projects to explore, etcetera. Nothing at all changes for you. I, 0:28:43.760 --> 0:28:46.840 on the other hand, have a less exciting existence. I 0:28:46.920 --> 0:28:49.960 have a few social relationships, but I only get to 0:28:50.000 --> 0:28:52.840 talk to people through a glass barrier. And I live 0:28:52.880 --> 0:28:56.120 in a kind of dank concrete building that's always dimly 0:28:56.200 --> 0:28:59.000 lit and a little bit too cold. And I get 0:28:59.120 --> 0:29:01.440 enough food to eat, but it's not very exciting. It's 0:29:01.480 --> 0:29:05.040 basically just like microwave frozen fish sticks and tater tots 0:29:05.040 --> 0:29:07.760 and a vitamin supplement to keep me more or less healthy. 0:29:08.240 --> 0:29:10.400 I can still sort of pursue my interests in my 0:29:10.480 --> 0:29:12.400 spare time, but I don't have a lot of spare 0:29:12.400 --> 0:29:17.000 time after all of my shifts at the Hollywood Acid Factory. Now, 0:29:17.040 --> 0:29:20.240 which scenario would you pick? Oh, this is hard because 0:29:20.400 --> 0:29:23.200 with the first one you've kind of had me like, okay, uh, 0:29:23.200 --> 0:29:25.800 this sounds fine. All you know, my life and my 0:29:25.920 --> 0:29:29.959 connections and the things I'm invested in, those exist and 0:29:30.440 --> 0:29:34.000 you don't exist. And so like there's you know, you 0:29:34.040 --> 0:29:35.800 don't really have a dog in the hunt, right, you 0:29:35.840 --> 0:29:37.560 don't have any skin in that. You literally do not 0:29:37.640 --> 0:29:41.040 have skin in the game. But then scenario to makes 0:29:41.040 --> 0:29:44.240 things a lot more difficult because it's like, now it's 0:29:44.280 --> 0:29:47.200 it's kind of this question of do you get to 0:29:47.280 --> 0:29:49.200 exist in this kind of like in this you know, 0:29:49.240 --> 0:29:53.040 this more miserable state or not like quite miserable. I 0:29:53.080 --> 0:29:56.000 don't know, depending on how you frame it. But yeah, 0:29:56.000 --> 0:29:58.160 it's like, then I feel like I am imposing on 0:29:58.280 --> 0:30:02.080 you if I say you can't exist, right, So just 0:30:02.160 --> 0:30:04.760 imagine all of that is true. But if you asked me, 0:30:04.840 --> 0:30:06.600 I would say, well, of course I want to exist. 0:30:06.640 --> 0:30:10.200 I don't want to not exist. Yeah. I do not 0:30:10.280 --> 0:30:13.440 feel it is my place to decide that someone should 0:30:13.440 --> 0:30:17.440 not exist, you know, due to the quality of their life. 0:30:17.520 --> 0:30:19.640 And in this case, you know, I mean, this is 0:30:19.720 --> 0:30:23.520 a scenario to puts me in a very tough place. Yeah, 0:30:23.520 --> 0:30:26.560 And I think most people's intuition when confronted with this 0:30:26.600 --> 0:30:30.080 problem is that it would be unfair to pick scenario one. 0:30:30.320 --> 0:30:33.840 Even though my existence in scenario two is not ideal, 0:30:34.280 --> 0:30:36.600 you'd assume that if you asked me, I would still 0:30:36.720 --> 0:30:41.160 rather exist than not exist. Right, So scenario two in 0:30:41.200 --> 0:30:45.440 this context is, by most people's intuition, a better world. 0:30:45.520 --> 0:30:48.320 It's a more preferable world. If you had the option, 0:30:48.440 --> 0:30:51.000 scenario two would be the better one to bring about, 0:30:51.520 --> 0:30:53.920 And it's really hard to argue with that reasoning. In 0:30:54.000 --> 0:30:55.960 order to argue with that reasoning, you'd have to say 0:30:56.000 --> 0:30:58.960 that you have the power unilaterally to say that other 0:30:59.000 --> 0:31:02.000 people shouldn't be able to exist and live lives that 0:31:02.080 --> 0:31:04.480 they might not rate as perfect but still would want 0:31:04.520 --> 0:31:08.400 to have. But this opens up a very dangerous logic 0:31:08.840 --> 0:31:12.640 because it means it's possible to increase the desirability of 0:31:12.680 --> 0:31:16.720 a world just by adding to the number of sentient 0:31:16.840 --> 0:31:20.000 minds that want to keep existing in it. Again, this 0:31:20.080 --> 0:31:23.360 is why it's known as the mere addition problem. That 0:31:23.480 --> 0:31:26.480 you can create scenarios where it's better to have a 0:31:26.560 --> 0:31:29.840 world with more minds in it, as long as those 0:31:29.880 --> 0:31:33.640 minds would say that they want to exist, even if 0:31:33.680 --> 0:31:37.920 the average quality of human life is drastically reduced. So 0:31:37.960 --> 0:31:41.000 like if you took the average quality of my existence 0:31:41.000 --> 0:31:44.400 and your existence together in scenario two, then it would 0:31:44.400 --> 0:31:47.320 be lower than the average of your existence alone in 0:31:47.360 --> 0:31:50.880 scenario one. And then if you obey this maxim that 0:31:50.960 --> 0:31:53.400 you've set out. Now it seems like you're committed to 0:31:53.440 --> 0:31:56.640 a chain of logic that leads to the conclusion that 0:31:56.720 --> 0:32:00.360 the value of quantity can overwhelm the very able of 0:32:00.440 --> 0:32:03.400 quality when it comes to human life, as as long 0:32:03.440 --> 0:32:07.320 as most people would rather exist than not, some greater 0:32:07.520 --> 0:32:11.080 number of lives are preferable to some smaller number, even 0:32:11.200 --> 0:32:16.240 if the lives and the greater number are pretty abjectly miserable. Now, 0:32:16.280 --> 0:32:17.959 I think we should know that this logic would not 0:32:18.040 --> 0:32:21.280 apply to lives that are so miserable that people would 0:32:21.320 --> 0:32:24.600 say themselves that they would truly rather cease to exist. 0:32:25.240 --> 0:32:27.479 You could think of some kind of like torture, like 0:32:27.560 --> 0:32:30.360 hell world or something, you know, like if Hell existed, 0:32:30.560 --> 0:32:33.320 it would just be better for that to not exist. Yeah, 0:32:33.360 --> 0:32:35.560 this is the the the option we're talking about here 0:32:35.720 --> 0:32:38.480 is more in line with to bring in us another 0:32:38.520 --> 0:32:42.360 great science fiction example, uh, the Martian Colonies and total recall, 0:32:42.840 --> 0:32:46.920 where most people have it pretty horrible there, or at 0:32:46.960 --> 0:32:49.480 least it's a rough existence, but they would still fight 0:32:49.520 --> 0:32:52.360 to survive. Yeah, yeah, and they they get into how 0:32:52.400 --> 0:32:55.400 like the the early like the settlers were just basically 0:32:55.440 --> 0:32:58.240 living in caves. You know, it's just this this brutal 0:32:58.280 --> 0:33:00.800 primitive existence. And yet at this same time, like they 0:33:01.080 --> 0:33:05.320 you know, they're they're not in just constant torture. Yeah, exactly. Now, 0:33:05.560 --> 0:33:07.480 I want to be very clear, as we said at 0:33:07.520 --> 0:33:09.640 the beginning, the point of this is not that the 0:33:09.680 --> 0:33:14.160 repugnant conclusion is correct. It's actually, you know, Derek Parfitt 0:33:14.400 --> 0:33:18.000 highlights this to say, like this really seems to be incorrect. 0:33:18.040 --> 0:33:20.720 It really seems to go against our intuitions. So the 0:33:20.760 --> 0:33:23.960 problem is figuring out what part of the logical chain 0:33:24.000 --> 0:33:27.920 that gets you there is wrong. Because I mean, most 0:33:27.920 --> 0:33:30.960 people I think would say that this this conclusion is incorrect. 0:33:31.120 --> 0:33:34.040 There are these practical moral implications to it. If it 0:33:34.120 --> 0:33:38.280 were actually correct, if the repugnant conclusion were really did 0:33:38.360 --> 0:33:41.640 have moral force, it would have implications like humans should 0:33:41.640 --> 0:33:44.880 engage in maximal natalism, right, like the idea that humans 0:33:44.880 --> 0:33:48.200 should reproduce as much as possible to create as much 0:33:48.320 --> 0:33:51.800 human life as we possibly can, because to create less 0:33:51.840 --> 0:33:54.280 than the maximum possible amount of human life would be 0:33:54.320 --> 0:33:58.040 immoral under this view, if you didn't work to maximize 0:33:58.080 --> 0:34:02.000 the human population, you're denying future people the right to exist. 0:34:02.520 --> 0:34:05.880 And again, you know, too many people. That seems intuitively absurd. 0:34:05.960 --> 0:34:09.200 Why would you trade a world with less people living 0:34:09.280 --> 0:34:13.080 fulfilling lives for a world with vastly more people living 0:34:13.160 --> 0:34:15.520 lives you know, at the edge of what resources they 0:34:15.520 --> 0:34:18.960 can get to barely survive. For instance, you could think 0:34:18.960 --> 0:34:22.399 about it in terms of cat ownership, you know, like 0:34:23.040 --> 0:34:27.200 on one cat, in my opinion, is enough. Um. But 0:34:27.360 --> 0:34:29.160 you know, I could see myself talked into all right, 0:34:29.239 --> 0:34:30.879 we need to get a second cat. This cat needs 0:34:30.880 --> 0:34:33.600 a home. Let's let's let's do it. But then the 0:34:33.640 --> 0:34:36.800 more cats you add to a house, the more chaotic 0:34:36.840 --> 0:34:40.040 it becomes, the more work has to go into taking 0:34:40.080 --> 0:34:42.279 care of those cats, until you reach a point where 0:34:42.320 --> 0:34:47.120 it's it's just about quantity over quality, right right, exactly. Now, Again, 0:34:47.640 --> 0:34:52.960 this isn't too assume any particular correlation between the number 0:34:53.000 --> 0:34:55.080 of people on Earth and their quality of life. I 0:34:55.120 --> 0:34:58.480 mean I think that, um, there are actually some naive 0:34:58.560 --> 0:35:03.360 assumptions going around to out about increasing human populations necessarily 0:35:03.680 --> 0:35:06.760 always leading to bad outcomes. I don't think we should 0:35:06.920 --> 0:35:09.839 we should take those conclusions for granted, but just saying that, like, 0:35:10.160 --> 0:35:12.640 if you assume, at some point, you know, if there 0:35:12.640 --> 0:35:16.520 were a hundred trillion humans on Earth, you can definitely 0:35:16.600 --> 0:35:19.279 say that that would that would cause problems for for 0:35:19.320 --> 0:35:22.759 ecosystems and stuff right right. And and also, just before 0:35:22.760 --> 0:35:25.399 anybody writes me if you have multiple cats in your home, 0:35:25.640 --> 0:35:27.719 I am not judging you. I am just saying that 0:35:27.840 --> 0:35:31.880 multiple cats, uh, does not feel right for me personally 0:35:32.480 --> 0:35:35.440 my personal household. But I know plenty of people with 0:35:35.480 --> 0:35:38.640 lots of cats, and they seem quite happy with the situation. 0:35:39.000 --> 0:35:42.160 But but even they, I think would probably admit that 0:35:42.200 --> 0:35:46.399 there is there is some threshold cat ownership. Right, Even 0:35:46.440 --> 0:35:49.040 if you're you're you're a sort of like cat maximalist 0:35:49.080 --> 0:35:51.839 in a practical sense, you're not really because you're not 0:35:51.840 --> 0:35:54.839 trying to get five hundred cats in your house. Yeah, 0:35:54.880 --> 0:36:00.360 because that's when yeah, that's when law enforcement gets involved. Um. 0:36:00.400 --> 0:36:02.879 But then okay, so so on the on the one hand, 0:36:02.920 --> 0:36:05.040 you're thinking like, no, that that can't be right, But 0:36:05.080 --> 0:36:07.440 then compare it again to our other intuitions that got 0:36:07.480 --> 0:36:09.799 us there in the first place. Even if you wish 0:36:09.880 --> 0:36:12.600 the quality of your life for much better. Most people 0:36:12.640 --> 0:36:16.280 would prefer existing over not existing, even people who are 0:36:16.360 --> 0:36:19.239 in pain, who lack the things that we desire, We 0:36:19.239 --> 0:36:22.719 would mostly prefer to be able to exist rather than 0:36:22.760 --> 0:36:25.040 not exist. And so it would certainly be wrong of 0:36:25.120 --> 0:36:29.000 us to decide on other people's behalf that their lives 0:36:29.040 --> 0:36:31.600 are not worth living. Right, Yeah, I think there's a 0:36:31.680 --> 0:36:34.799 there's a strong argument for that. Um, you know, we 0:36:34.800 --> 0:36:36.400 we do get it. We are getting into I know 0:36:36.440 --> 0:36:38.440 there are all sorts of lights going off in people's 0:36:38.480 --> 0:36:41.839 heads about varying you know, issues, but but but still, 0:36:41.880 --> 0:36:43.759 I think that is a for the most part of 0:36:43.840 --> 0:36:46.520 rational argument. Well, at least it's it feels that way. 0:36:46.560 --> 0:36:48.560 It doesn't necessarily mean it's right. So this is a 0:36:48.600 --> 0:36:51.680 paradox we've got it. Seems like we must choose between 0:36:51.719 --> 0:36:56.480 two conclusions that both feel morally wrong. So what are 0:36:56.480 --> 0:36:59.960 the ways of resolving this paradox? Because so the conclusion 0:37:00.080 --> 0:37:04.120 is widely considered unacceptable. Parfit himself again, he articulates this, 0:37:04.200 --> 0:37:06.840 but not to say that the repugnant conclusion is correct. 0:37:06.960 --> 0:37:09.960 He brings it up to say, like, this is obviously wrong. 0:37:10.040 --> 0:37:12.440 We have to figure out why this isn't the case, 0:37:12.960 --> 0:37:16.160 and other philosophers have tried to find ways to avoid 0:37:16.200 --> 0:37:18.960 the conclusion by like questioning some of the premises or 0:37:19.040 --> 0:37:23.080 introducing other considerations. So, for example, you could argue that 0:37:23.360 --> 0:37:27.160 maximizing the average quality of human life is the ideal 0:37:27.160 --> 0:37:29.560 and so so not like the number of people, but 0:37:29.680 --> 0:37:32.240 you just want to make the average human life quality 0:37:32.280 --> 0:37:34.839 as high as possible. But under this model you'd run 0:37:34.840 --> 0:37:37.799 into problems. For instance, you could improve the world by 0:37:37.880 --> 0:37:41.319 killing everyone except the happiest person in it, and then 0:37:41.360 --> 0:37:45.440 it would have the maximum average happiness. Uh. Then again 0:37:45.920 --> 0:37:47.799 you could you could go back against that and say, well, 0:37:47.880 --> 0:37:51.600 surely killing everyone else would decrease this person's quality of life. 0:37:52.440 --> 0:37:55.120 But you can imagine like weird sci fi hypotheticals to 0:37:55.120 --> 0:37:58.280 get around this, maybe, for example, that the best possible 0:37:58.320 --> 0:38:01.960 world is the one with just one maximally satisfied person 0:38:02.320 --> 0:38:05.080 living in a simulation of real life for the wind 0:38:05.080 --> 0:38:08.240 howls around the you know waste land bunker that houses 0:38:08.400 --> 0:38:12.640 that that person's real body. Yeah. That that reminds me 0:38:12.680 --> 0:38:15.000 of a there was a Zoom meeting that I attended 0:38:15.040 --> 0:38:17.400 this morning. There was like a like a like a 0:38:17.480 --> 0:38:20.600 dad's meeting. There's a line with the school where my 0:38:20.640 --> 0:38:23.799 son goes, and we were all asked to rate our 0:38:23.920 --> 0:38:26.960 current level of happiness from a one to a kin 0:38:27.160 --> 0:38:29.960 like one being like just I just just absolute misery, 0:38:30.000 --> 0:38:33.200 I guess, and tin being like awesome, and most of 0:38:33.280 --> 0:38:36.200 us put in sevens. I found I put on myself 0:38:36.239 --> 0:38:37.880 put in a seven. There's like a seven point to 0:38:38.080 --> 0:38:40.880 someone had a seven point seven. I think somebody somebody 0:38:41.040 --> 0:38:42.680 was having a tough time, and you know, put in 0:38:42.719 --> 0:38:45.520 like a six or a five. And then one person 0:38:45.560 --> 0:38:47.880 put in a tin, and I was I was just 0:38:47.920 --> 0:38:53.200 like wow, like, who, let's hand ownership of the what 0:38:53.239 --> 0:38:55.600 are they doing where they have the you know, the tin? 0:38:55.680 --> 0:38:58.000 So in this scenario, it's like, just cut out all 0:38:58.000 --> 0:39:00.480 the sevens and let's just have only guy with a 0:39:00.560 --> 0:39:05.239 tin and uh and he shall be the population of earth. Right, 0:39:05.320 --> 0:39:08.200 So that obviously goes against our moral intuitions. Swell, it 0:39:08.239 --> 0:39:11.040 does not feel right that you could you could improve 0:39:11.160 --> 0:39:14.000 the moral worth of the world just by eliminating all 0:39:14.040 --> 0:39:17.680 the unhappy people. That's obviously wrong. Uh So, Yeah, you're 0:39:17.719 --> 0:39:20.040 still stuck with this problems. There are a bunch of 0:39:20.040 --> 0:39:22.719 ways the different philosophers have have tried to deal with it. 0:39:22.800 --> 0:39:26.080 Some have introduced like like sort of ad hoc ways 0:39:26.160 --> 0:39:30.840 of calculating life value that's somewhat favor average quality of life, 0:39:30.840 --> 0:39:34.239 but don't totally put that above number of people. I mean, 0:39:34.320 --> 0:39:37.840 it's just like, this is clearly a difficult problem to 0:39:37.920 --> 0:39:41.520 resolve some things that we believe in our intention with 0:39:41.560 --> 0:39:45.280 each other. But however you try to deal with the problem, 0:39:45.360 --> 0:39:48.560 it is not hard at all to imagine how this 0:39:48.680 --> 0:39:51.920 thought experiment has an impact on the idea of space 0:39:51.960 --> 0:39:55.920 exploration and space colonization. Because think about it again. Okay, 0:39:56.080 --> 0:40:00.080 imagine you're charting out to futures for humanity, and one 0:40:00.239 --> 0:40:02.600 is a is a future where we stay here on 0:40:02.680 --> 0:40:06.280 Earth and people you know, there there are varying qualities 0:40:06.280 --> 0:40:08.040 of life. But let's say, you know, in a in 0:40:08.080 --> 0:40:11.719 a better future scenario, maybe we we implement some kind 0:40:11.760 --> 0:40:16.040 of social structure that gets basically everybody on Earth's quality 0:40:16.080 --> 0:40:18.880 of life up to a certain level where people have 0:40:18.960 --> 0:40:22.480 the resources they need, they can pursue creative work, they 0:40:22.480 --> 0:40:25.080 can they can hang out in a in a you know, 0:40:25.200 --> 0:40:29.640 unpolluted natural environment, experience and nature have good social relationships. 0:40:30.000 --> 0:40:32.719 You know, take a best case scenario, there still the 0:40:32.840 --> 0:40:35.680 number of people who could live on Earth in that 0:40:35.719 --> 0:40:40.080 scenario is going to be somewhat limited. Meanwhile, you could 0:40:40.120 --> 0:40:43.520 have a lot more potential for human life and human flourishing, 0:40:43.560 --> 0:40:46.000 and especially if you're playing the odds game against like 0:40:46.080 --> 0:40:47.960 you know what, if you know, we get a space 0:40:48.000 --> 0:40:51.360 impact or something really bad happens to planet Earth itself, 0:40:51.840 --> 0:40:54.520 you can have a lot more potential for human life 0:40:54.840 --> 0:40:58.640 if you were to spread out to other objects throughout 0:40:58.719 --> 0:41:01.120 the you know, throughout the Solar System or throughout you know, 0:41:01.239 --> 0:41:04.440 other star systems in the Milky Way. But if you 0:41:04.480 --> 0:41:06.719 take a pessimistic view of what those would be like, 0:41:06.760 --> 0:41:11.600 you can easily imagine how those existences might be pretty crappy. 0:41:11.719 --> 0:41:14.120 You know, like you're you're trying to live on Mars, 0:41:14.239 --> 0:41:17.680 but the exploration of Mars is in one sense exciting, 0:41:17.680 --> 0:41:21.520 but also Mars is a horrible place. It's just horrible, 0:41:21.680 --> 0:41:24.879 like would you really would you really want to live there? 0:41:24.920 --> 0:41:27.680 And say an underground bunker that had to shield you 0:41:27.760 --> 0:41:31.239 from radiation, and you know, you're you're eating these kind 0:41:31.239 --> 0:41:34.000 of bland foods and you know there's only a couple 0:41:34.040 --> 0:41:36.560 of other people who you can interact with face to face, 0:41:36.600 --> 0:41:38.880 and you can't go outside you can't see a tree, 0:41:39.480 --> 0:41:41.960 you know, and and and so forth. Yeah, and if 0:41:41.960 --> 0:41:44.600 you're also looking at a situation where it's not even 0:41:44.680 --> 0:41:47.600 like I'm gonna make this this world, this Martian world 0:41:47.600 --> 0:41:50.279 better for my children, and it's more like, well, in 0:41:50.320 --> 0:41:53.120 a thousand years things will be much better. You know. 0:41:53.600 --> 0:41:57.279 It's it. It becomes kind of difficult to imagine, you know, 0:41:57.760 --> 0:42:01.560 getting in the mindset of you know, of of the 0:42:01.600 --> 0:42:05.480 of that particular individual, right and so this I feel 0:42:05.520 --> 0:42:08.560 like this kind of question. The idea of space colonization, 0:42:08.920 --> 0:42:12.520 in a way, is one particular scenario for making the 0:42:12.560 --> 0:42:18.160 paradox of the repugnan conclusion kind of concrete. Like imagining 0:42:18.200 --> 0:42:21.480 these different options, both of them feel kind of wrong 0:42:21.600 --> 0:42:23.879 in a way, and this brings us back to uh 0:42:24.000 --> 0:42:28.760 Covidge is austro astronomical population ethics conundrum. He writes, quote, 0:42:28.960 --> 0:42:32.520 in the context of space colonization, the repugnant conclusion could 0:42:32.640 --> 0:42:35.760 mean that a dystopian future in which dozens or hundreds 0:42:35.760 --> 0:42:39.080 of billions of humans across different habitats in our solar 0:42:39.120 --> 0:42:43.759 system and beyond live miserable, brutish, anguish field lives is 0:42:43.760 --> 0:42:47.400 a future that is morbly preferable to, for example, a 0:42:47.480 --> 0:42:49.800 future in which there are only a few billion people 0:42:49.920 --> 0:42:53.560 who live happy lives on Earth. Now, Covid points out 0:42:53.560 --> 0:42:56.399 that yes, this is an extreme possibility, but that it's 0:42:56.440 --> 0:42:59.520 not unreasonable to presume that life on the off world 0:42:59.560 --> 0:43:01.880 colonies indeed be hard. You know, we've just been discussing 0:43:02.160 --> 0:43:05.600 how brutal Mars is. I mean, heck um, I think 0:43:05.840 --> 0:43:08.239 it's a nanio. De grass Tyson, for instance, has brought 0:43:08.320 --> 0:43:12.839 up look at Antarctica, and Arctica is infinitely more hospitable 0:43:13.040 --> 0:43:16.560 than Mars. And outside of what a few thousand people 0:43:16.600 --> 0:43:19.200 during the summer and barely a thousand people during the winter, 0:43:19.360 --> 0:43:23.239 we don't have human life on Earth's fifth largest continent. Yeah, 0:43:23.280 --> 0:43:26.520 I mean yeah, I think about how how uninhabitable not 0:43:26.680 --> 0:43:30.960 just an Arctica, like most of Earth is. This is funny, like, 0:43:31.160 --> 0:43:33.719 you know, Earth is the place we can live, but 0:43:33.800 --> 0:43:36.440 we can't even live on most of it. Most of 0:43:36.480 --> 0:43:39.600 the surface of the Earth is uninhabitable. It's either ocean 0:43:39.760 --> 0:43:43.160 is open ocean, or it is you know, desert or 0:43:43.239 --> 0:43:48.319 uninhabitable tundra, ice sheets like they're actually really just these 0:43:48.400 --> 0:43:51.400 kind of slivers of the surface that are good for 0:43:51.480 --> 0:43:54.120 us to settle down on. Yeah, I mean when you 0:43:54.440 --> 0:43:58.080 consider like the hard surface of the Earth, most of 0:43:58.120 --> 0:44:03.759 the Earth's surface is dark, high pressure deep sea environment, 0:44:04.520 --> 0:44:07.000 where where we we have no place. Uh so, yeah, 0:44:07.000 --> 0:44:10.120 we're we're clinging to the you know, to the parts 0:44:10.160 --> 0:44:12.600 of the world that we can live and VR technology, 0:44:13.239 --> 0:44:15.239 you know, we're able to to live in a lot 0:44:15.239 --> 0:44:18.000 of places that we wouldn't be able to otherwise. But 0:44:18.000 --> 0:44:20.960 but still, yeah, we again it comes kind of back 0:44:20.960 --> 0:44:24.960 to the Kardashian scale, like in terms of technology and 0:44:25.040 --> 0:44:28.360 just sort of maximizing our planet. Like we're not even 0:44:28.400 --> 0:44:32.200 on wrong one yet, so you know, trying to imagine 0:44:32.200 --> 0:44:35.360 people living on a world off world colony. People born 0:44:35.440 --> 0:44:38.239 into life in another world would not exist at all 0:44:38.640 --> 0:44:41.440 if not for the establishment of that colony. So, on 0:44:41.440 --> 0:44:44.400 one hand of the paradox, colonizing other worlds is an 0:44:44.440 --> 0:44:47.399 inherently moral act because you know, because if you don't 0:44:47.440 --> 0:44:50.280 do it, they won't exist. But what if there are 0:44:50.320 --> 0:44:53.200 not places where happiness and peace are going to be 0:44:53.200 --> 0:44:56.959 easily found? What if these are harsh, frontier colonies, even 0:44:57.040 --> 0:45:01.920 hell worlds in you know, to vary degrees that expand 0:45:02.000 --> 0:45:04.520 the fact of human habitation, but do so via the 0:45:04.560 --> 0:45:08.160 reality of human suffering. So Coach connects this to that 0:45:08.200 --> 0:45:11.759 other standard problem of population ethics that we already mentioned, uh, 0:45:11.840 --> 0:45:15.960 the non identity problem, which just to to reiterate that 0:45:16.120 --> 0:45:20.280 the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy states that it quote raises 0:45:20.400 --> 0:45:23.759 questions regarding the obligations we think we have in respect 0:45:24.000 --> 0:45:26.560 of people who, by our own acts are caused both 0:45:26.640 --> 0:45:30.360 to exist and who have existences that are, though worth having, 0:45:30.960 --> 0:45:35.200 unavoidably flawed existence. Is that is, that are flawed if 0:45:35.239 --> 0:45:38.719 those people are ever to have them at all. Yeah, 0:45:38.760 --> 0:45:41.759 So on the non identity problem again, this is part 0:45:41.760 --> 0:45:44.640 of the same context in which Derek Parfitt's discussion of 0:45:44.640 --> 0:45:48.880 the repugnant conclusion was described. It's another paradox. It's it 0:45:48.960 --> 0:45:51.839 takes the same form showing that where it seems like 0:45:51.880 --> 0:45:54.640 you have a couple of options and they both seem 0:45:54.719 --> 0:45:58.360 morally wrong due to our intuitions. So so he shows 0:45:58.440 --> 0:46:01.600 that there are three premises is that are intuitively true, 0:46:01.719 --> 0:46:04.919 but they're in conflict with each other. Uh So, first 0:46:05.000 --> 0:46:08.000 of all, there's the premise of what's known as the 0:46:08.160 --> 0:46:11.759 person affecting view, and this is the belief that an 0:46:11.760 --> 0:46:15.560 act can only be wrong if it harms someone in 0:46:15.680 --> 0:46:19.960 some way and actually does no harm to anyone, cannot 0:46:20.000 --> 0:46:22.839 be morally wrong. And of course this doesn't apply just 0:46:22.880 --> 0:46:25.239 a physical harm. This would be, you know, any way 0:46:25.239 --> 0:46:28.640 of making someone's life for situation worse. And if you 0:46:28.680 --> 0:46:31.480 disagree with this, I try to think of something that 0:46:31.520 --> 0:46:34.400 it's wrong to do, but that would never hurt anyone 0:46:34.480 --> 0:46:40.319 in any way, the state of marshmallow man um I mean, 0:46:40.440 --> 0:46:42.560 And and so some people might have views about that. 0:46:42.600 --> 0:46:45.640 I mean, some people might adhere to, like a what 0:46:45.760 --> 0:46:49.239 might be called a deontological view of morality, where there 0:46:49.280 --> 0:46:51.319 are just certain things that are that are moral and 0:46:51.400 --> 0:46:55.080 immoral and it actually does not flow from consequentialism from 0:46:55.080 --> 0:46:57.319 how it affects other people. But but I mean, a 0:46:57.440 --> 0:47:00.880 very common view among philosophers today would be that, you know, 0:47:01.080 --> 0:47:05.480 there's something about morality that has to involve effects on people, 0:47:05.560 --> 0:47:08.719 and if something doesn't hurt anyone, it's hard to see 0:47:08.760 --> 0:47:11.719 how it's wrong. So that's the first idea, that that 0:47:11.800 --> 0:47:15.040 there is a person affecting view of morality that something 0:47:15.040 --> 0:47:17.680 can only be wrong if it harms someone. The second 0:47:17.680 --> 0:47:21.799 premise is that bringing a person into existence is not 0:47:22.280 --> 0:47:26.760 bad for that person, even if their existence is flawed 0:47:27.120 --> 0:47:30.719 because being caused to exist is not a reduction in 0:47:30.760 --> 0:47:34.279 the quality of one's existence. There is no higher baseline 0:47:34.360 --> 0:47:37.560 from which you are reduced by being caused to exist 0:47:37.600 --> 0:47:39.920 in the first place. Does that make sense? So it's 0:47:39.920 --> 0:47:42.600 not like you were doing great before you existed, and 0:47:42.640 --> 0:47:45.880 then once you existed, then that was like a downgrading 0:47:45.920 --> 0:47:48.640 of how good you're doing. And then the third premise 0:47:48.800 --> 0:47:52.279 would be that some acts of bringing people into existence 0:47:52.360 --> 0:47:56.560 are wrong anyway. Imagine, for example, creating an underworld space 0:47:56.600 --> 0:47:59.360 colony where the people they are going to be haunted 0:47:59.400 --> 0:48:02.360 by space more locks that hound them every waking second, 0:48:02.520 --> 0:48:05.160 Like you would think it would be wrong to create 0:48:05.200 --> 0:48:10.239 that place, right, Yes, yes, I mean I'm try I'm 0:48:10.239 --> 0:48:12.560 trying to envision all the ways that you know, we 0:48:12.600 --> 0:48:16.120 can reach the space more locks and change them and 0:48:16.320 --> 0:48:19.480 you know, bring space more locks and human colonists together. 0:48:19.680 --> 0:48:23.120 But but it does sound pretty daunting. Yeah, And so 0:48:23.360 --> 0:48:26.880 this is another problem along these lines. To to a 0:48:26.880 --> 0:48:30.200 lot of philosophers, all of these premises seem correct, but 0:48:30.280 --> 0:48:32.399 they can't all be right at the same time. They're 0:48:32.400 --> 0:48:35.719 in conflict with each other. So Covid ways in on this. 0:48:35.840 --> 0:48:38.879 He says in the case of our dystopian space colonization 0:48:38.920 --> 0:48:42.680 thought experiment. However, the horrible future is not actually bad 0:48:42.760 --> 0:48:46.799 for anyone. If it weren't for our dystopian space colonization activities, 0:48:47.080 --> 0:48:49.880 all those billions of people beyond Earth who live miserable 0:48:49.880 --> 0:48:52.560 lives barely worth living would not exist at all. From 0:48:52.560 --> 0:48:55.000 the point of view of those future people, then their 0:48:55.040 --> 0:48:58.319 miserable lives are still preferable to the alternative, which is 0:48:58.360 --> 0:49:01.239 not having come into existence at all. The fact that 0:49:01.280 --> 0:49:04.279 they were brought into their miserable existence was therefore not 0:49:04.440 --> 0:49:07.520 morally bad for them. And this basically is the second 0:49:07.520 --> 0:49:10.760 premise I mentioned a minute ago, that it's not bringing 0:49:10.800 --> 0:49:13.719 someone into existence can't be bad for them because it 0:49:13.800 --> 0:49:17.520 does not constitute a downgrading or reduction in their quality 0:49:17.520 --> 0:49:21.480 of life. They didn't have a baseline to start from. Yeah, 0:49:21.800 --> 0:49:24.719 so covid he ends up contending that, via these problems, 0:49:24.960 --> 0:49:28.760 enabling a future of space colonies is at least less 0:49:28.800 --> 0:49:33.759 morally desirable than other alternatives, but perhaps even morally questionable. 0:49:34.280 --> 0:49:37.000 And this brings us to the next phase of his consideration, 0:49:37.280 --> 0:49:42.000 and that is astronomical suffering in off world human populations. 0:49:42.640 --> 0:49:44.400 All right, Well, let's take a break, and then we 0:49:44.480 --> 0:49:50.720 can come back and explore some suffering. Alright, we're back 0:49:51.480 --> 0:49:56.200 astronomical suffering, deep hurting. If you were a centobyte, then 0:49:56.200 --> 0:49:58.600 you you may have skipped forward to this portion of 0:49:58.600 --> 0:50:02.680 the podcast because you just wants some good suffering. Uh So, 0:50:02.800 --> 0:50:05.640 Covig contends the pain of the Mars colony will be 0:50:05.719 --> 0:50:08.479 legendary even in Hell. Yeah, this is where they should 0:50:08.480 --> 0:50:11.400 have gone in. Uh imagine if if we could do 0:50:11.440 --> 0:50:15.799 a read a redo of Hell raised or three, um no, 0:50:16.600 --> 0:50:20.520 four four for the space one. Three is the one 0:50:20.560 --> 0:50:23.480 with the with the like disco club and is it 0:50:23.520 --> 0:50:26.920 in England or I think it's in the US. Okay, 0:50:27.080 --> 0:50:29.759 I can't remember with the camera head cent a bite 0:50:29.800 --> 0:50:32.560 and the c D cent a bite. Yes, yeah, the 0:50:32.800 --> 0:50:36.000 fourth one is in space and is largely incomprehensible. But 0:50:36.160 --> 0:50:41.160 imagine if it had decided to explore astronomical suffering instead. 0:50:41.920 --> 0:50:46.680 So Covid contends that increasing maximum total well being is 0:50:46.760 --> 0:50:50.000 questionable if the amount of suffering in the universe also increases, 0:50:50.719 --> 0:50:53.000 but he goes on to argue that the astronomical non 0:50:53.040 --> 0:50:57.680 identity problem is the question of suffering quote merely maximizing 0:50:57.719 --> 0:51:00.319 total well being is questionable. At the same time, the 0:51:00.320 --> 0:51:02.880 amount of suffering is increased to such a degree that 0:51:02.920 --> 0:51:06.240 average well being decreases. The problem. The increase in suffering 0:51:06.280 --> 0:51:11.400 through space colonization can be understood as a is a 0:51:11.520 --> 0:51:16.760 risk sue generous or unique one, and that is astronomical suffering. 0:51:17.200 --> 0:51:19.440 So part of the you know, the certainty here entails 0:51:19.640 --> 0:51:23.200 suboptimal conditions for future humans and other worlds. Worlds where 0:51:23.239 --> 0:51:26.840 any any of the sci fi scenarios we've already discussed, 0:51:27.160 --> 0:51:30.200 UH could potentially come to life. Anything you've ever seen 0:51:30.200 --> 0:51:34.000 in the science fiction film where off worlders have it hard, 0:51:34.160 --> 0:51:38.040 you know, living in caves, depending on ailing or even 0:51:38.080 --> 0:51:41.680 failing technology, having to live with astonishingly high levels of 0:51:41.760 --> 0:51:47.760 radiation sickness, UH, having your health impacted by by microbiota 0:51:47.800 --> 0:51:51.040 on this other world or some sort of disrupted microbiota 0:51:51.080 --> 0:51:52.960 that you've brought with you. You know, things are out 0:51:52.960 --> 0:51:56.640 of sync um Worlds where humans have to endure harsh 0:51:56.680 --> 0:52:00.520 conditions due to heat, cold, or bow in the case 0:52:00.560 --> 0:52:03.760 of like a tidally locked world, high pressure, low gravity, 0:52:03.800 --> 0:52:10.000 high gravity, caustic atmosphere, resource scarcity, dangerous native biology, electromagnetic 0:52:10.080 --> 0:52:14.240 field anomalies, and heightened ineo activity, just to name a few. 0:52:14.600 --> 0:52:17.600 And he also mentions the idea of invasive biology brought 0:52:17.680 --> 0:52:21.200 by by the colonists themselves, as well as a few 0:52:21.239 --> 0:52:27.200 technical possibilities. One the future simulations of sentient beings, which 0:52:27.239 --> 0:52:30.080 is something we've discussed on the show before. UH, the 0:52:30.160 --> 0:52:32.960 idea that you know, you're you're dealing with a heightened 0:52:33.040 --> 0:52:36.759 level of technology to even establish these worlds. So does 0:52:36.840 --> 0:52:40.319 that also bring about all the the problems of say, 0:52:40.360 --> 0:52:44.440 creating sentient life inside of simulation and then putting it 0:52:44.480 --> 0:52:47.279 in a hell box, and then copy and pasting that 0:52:47.400 --> 0:52:52.000 hell box, say a million times, you know. Um, Like, 0:52:52.120 --> 0:52:54.200 that's that's the horrible idea. I think we got into 0:52:54.200 --> 0:52:57.040 that a bit in the Basilisk episode. Sure, and then 0:52:57.440 --> 0:53:01.319 he also brings up a misaligned artificial and eligence. UM. 0:53:01.520 --> 0:53:04.360 So we also have to deal with the possibility of 0:53:04.360 --> 0:53:08.120 of ai UH coming online and UH the part of 0:53:08.160 --> 0:53:12.919 the scenario and being part of the the overall unhappiness 0:53:12.960 --> 0:53:16.879 of part of the overall UH suffering of the universe. Still, 0:53:16.920 --> 0:53:19.480 the author contends that the scenarios that could lead to 0:53:19.480 --> 0:53:22.919 astronomical suffering are vague, and the conclusions we might draw 0:53:23.239 --> 0:53:26.640 not altogether clear. On one hand, it's possible that space 0:53:26.680 --> 0:53:31.200 colonization could result in astronomical human suffering. Uh, and then 0:53:31.239 --> 0:53:32.799 this would this If this was the case, it would 0:53:32.840 --> 0:53:36.680 obviously be a disvalue. On the other hand, it's possible 0:53:36.719 --> 0:53:39.440 that that space colonization could result in an increase in 0:53:39.560 --> 0:53:43.360 human well being, but a huge decrease in non human 0:53:43.440 --> 0:53:46.879 well being in terms of, um, you know, the well 0:53:46.920 --> 0:53:50.480 being of of other organisms. Uh. This, you know, because 0:53:50.520 --> 0:53:55.280 potentially non human organisms, sentient and or non sentient digital 0:53:55.440 --> 0:53:57.839 entities that are denied human status. So I could also 0:53:57.840 --> 0:54:01.880 affect you know, general aies you this universe that we're imagining. 0:54:02.200 --> 0:54:04.160 On the other hand, he also adds that such colonization 0:54:04.200 --> 0:54:07.479 could be a force of good regarding AIES. I thought 0:54:07.480 --> 0:54:11.040 this was interesting quote. It is also possible that space 0:54:11.080 --> 0:54:15.920 colonization could result in the reduction of astronomical suffering if 0:54:16.000 --> 0:54:20.200 humankind were able to, for example, detect and correct misaligned 0:54:20.239 --> 0:54:25.160 extraterrestrial artificial intelligence, that could reduce or prevent enormous amounts 0:54:25.160 --> 0:54:29.160 of suffering. Of course, the existence of extraterrestrial artificial intelligence 0:54:29.520 --> 0:54:33.640 is itself also a highly uncertain proposition, So I guess 0:54:33.640 --> 0:54:35.640 the idea here is like if we if we were 0:54:35.680 --> 0:54:39.239 to venture out and we discover an alien AI that 0:54:39.400 --> 0:54:43.280 you know, for instance, has created digital hell worlds fullest 0:54:43.480 --> 0:54:46.880 of digital sentient beings that are being suffered, we could 0:54:47.320 --> 0:54:50.040 we could correct that AI. We could wage a holy 0:54:50.120 --> 0:54:53.799 war against that digital hell which is exactly uh, this 0:54:53.880 --> 0:54:57.879 is actually a major plot point in the Nean Ebanks novel. Um. 0:54:58.600 --> 0:55:02.600 Uh that that that that's that's really explored wonderfully. I've 0:55:02.600 --> 0:55:04.960 discussed it on the show before. But but yeah, this 0:55:05.000 --> 0:55:08.040 would be this would be one specific and granted, you know, 0:55:08.280 --> 0:55:13.560 um far fetched scenario in which we could potentially uh 0:55:13.880 --> 0:55:18.600 improve the state of suffering in the universe if we win. 0:55:19.680 --> 0:55:22.400 If we're there, that's right, because yeah, because that or 0:55:22.440 --> 0:55:27.680 the idea of encountering extraterrestrials much less extraterrestrial aies. There's 0:55:27.680 --> 0:55:30.040 a lot of factors to consider there. Or what if 0:55:30.080 --> 0:55:33.160 we're the bad guys and we win then then of course, 0:55:33.239 --> 0:55:36.279 well I guess he acknowledges that could go both ways, right, Yeah, yeah, 0:55:36.320 --> 0:55:38.080 I mean we could the other side of his yeahs 0:55:38.200 --> 0:55:41.160 we we we sort of fulfill what has largely been 0:55:41.200 --> 0:55:44.439 the human nature of exploration and we encounter the other 0:55:44.760 --> 0:55:48.400 civilization and bring misery and horror to it. So he 0:55:48.440 --> 0:55:51.400 contends that there are so many unknowns that to avoid 0:55:51.440 --> 0:55:54.920 such colonization would ultimately be uh, it would be it 0:55:54.920 --> 0:55:57.759 would be Pascal's Wager all over again, right, Uh, The 0:55:57.840 --> 0:56:01.000 idea that Pascal's Wager essentially disgusted to more depth than 0:56:01.000 --> 0:56:04.040 the show before, but essentially boiling down to, well, should 0:56:04.080 --> 0:56:06.400 I believe in God or not believe in God? To 0:56:06.480 --> 0:56:08.000 be on the safe side, I'll just go ahead and 0:56:08.040 --> 0:56:11.040 believe in him just in case. Now Pascal's wager. I 0:56:11.080 --> 0:56:14.239 think people who have boned up on their philosophy might 0:56:14.280 --> 0:56:16.440 notice that there are a lot of hidden assumptions and 0:56:16.520 --> 0:56:19.719 Pascal's wager that uh that make it maybe not as 0:56:19.760 --> 0:56:23.120 forceful as it would have seemed to Pascal's audience at 0:56:23.120 --> 0:56:26.799 the time. Yes, yeah, so yeah. He ultimately says that 0:56:26.880 --> 0:56:31.640 we get into similar territory here, but that nevertheless, given 0:56:31.640 --> 0:56:34.279 the dimension of risk, he says, the problem of astronomical 0:56:34.360 --> 0:56:37.480 suffering is certainly something that we should pay attention to, 0:56:37.520 --> 0:56:40.400 we should think about. Uh, you know that that in 0:56:40.480 --> 0:56:42.760 leaving the planet or you just in considering the future 0:56:42.840 --> 0:56:47.160 of humanity like that is that is one possibility that 0:56:47.280 --> 0:56:50.160 is like one road to stagnation, that we have to 0:56:51.400 --> 0:56:54.560 at least consider a few other ideas that he raises here. 0:56:54.760 --> 0:56:56.680 First of all, he says, you know, he drives home 0:56:56.719 --> 0:57:00.960 against space colonization is not a risk re venture and 0:57:01.120 --> 0:57:04.319 shouldn't be approached as such. So yeah, even though it 0:57:04.440 --> 0:57:06.919 is often this kind of optimistic vision in the back 0:57:06.960 --> 0:57:09.719 of our heads that maybe we should we should try 0:57:09.719 --> 0:57:14.120 and counterbalance that with a little bit of of of 0:57:13.680 --> 0:57:18.120 of astronomical suffering. He also admits that it might actually 0:57:18.160 --> 0:57:21.600 be too late in some respects, as this dream is 0:57:21.640 --> 0:57:25.760 just so seductive to already be the implicit goal of 0:57:25.880 --> 0:57:29.840 public as well as private space related ventures and ambitions. 0:57:30.360 --> 0:57:32.440 And also he drives home, and this is actually, I 0:57:32.480 --> 0:57:34.720 think something he gets into in that Ian magazine piec 0:57:34.840 --> 0:57:40.440 wrote that a meaningful governance framework will be important. Oh yeah, well, 0:57:40.480 --> 0:57:42.560 I mean, in that article he gets into the fact that, like, 0:57:42.600 --> 0:57:46.720 we just really do not have a political framework establishing 0:57:46.760 --> 0:57:50.360 authority in outer space. And we see that and even 0:57:50.400 --> 0:57:53.919 our current headlines stuff where we're like, wo wow, there's 0:57:53.960 --> 0:57:57.360 just there's just really no rules yet. And on one hand, 0:57:57.440 --> 0:58:00.600 like I can see how this might feel nice, like 0:58:00.640 --> 0:58:03.600 ohh wow. You know what, you know, the government's reach 0:58:03.720 --> 0:58:06.560 stops at the planet, and and outer space can just 0:58:06.600 --> 0:58:10.160 be this place of peaceful exploration without any you know, 0:58:10.280 --> 0:58:13.480 like laws and militaries and all that. That would be great. 0:58:13.640 --> 0:58:17.240 But as space becomes more populated with you know, people 0:58:17.520 --> 0:58:20.360 seeking out their their own ends and their own goals 0:58:20.400 --> 0:58:23.760 there without a legal framework for people to understand, you know, 0:58:24.200 --> 0:58:27.160 what is allowed, what they can do, and and you know, 0:58:27.280 --> 0:58:30.760 predict what other people will be allowed to do to them, 0:58:30.800 --> 0:58:34.320 it starts to become you know, less less of a 0:58:34.360 --> 0:58:38.440 final frontier and more of a wild West. Absolutely, um, 0:58:38.560 --> 0:58:40.840 this is how covidch rounds it all out. Quote. The 0:58:40.920 --> 0:58:43.720 overview of risks and the outline of a potential approach 0:58:43.760 --> 0:58:47.120 to crafting governance presented in this article are preliminary at best. 0:58:47.200 --> 0:58:51.200 Both issues, uh, the identification of colonization related risks and 0:58:51.240 --> 0:58:54.560 the work on colonization related governance require more scholarly attention 0:58:55.440 --> 0:58:59.360 before we can begin addressing them in practice. That attention, theoretical, 0:58:59.360 --> 0:59:02.480 though it may see, is warranted. Space colonization is human 0:59:02.560 --> 0:59:05.920 kind's best bet for long term survival, and today before 0:59:06.080 --> 0:59:09.240 large scale space colonization efforts are underway, we still have 0:59:09.320 --> 0:59:13.240 the capacity to develop the philosophical and practical guard rails 0:59:13.880 --> 0:59:17.400 that make the worst outcomes of space colonization less likely. 0:59:17.880 --> 0:59:19.919 And and you know I would agree with that. Yeah, 0:59:19.960 --> 0:59:23.200 I think that totally makes sense that, like, space colonization 0:59:23.320 --> 0:59:27.840 is something that that requires a bit of pessimistic forethought, 0:59:27.920 --> 0:59:30.520 Like you know, people should entertain ideas of what could 0:59:30.520 --> 0:59:36.120 go wrong and uh and explore them and plan out contingencies. Um, 0:59:36.400 --> 0:59:40.560 especially you know, like people who aren't doing space exploration themselves, 0:59:40.560 --> 0:59:44.000 because you might think that there there are some cognitive 0:59:44.080 --> 0:59:49.000 and and group cognitive biases probably at work in organizations 0:59:49.040 --> 0:59:53.120 that are personally involved in space exploration and the exploitation 0:59:53.120 --> 0:59:56.360 of resources in space. Yeah. Plus, you know, when we 0:59:56.400 --> 0:59:59.440 have you know, just sort of casual ideals of what 0:59:59.520 --> 1:00:02.080 the future will be like in the back of our head. Again, 1:00:02.120 --> 1:00:03.520 it kind of comes back to what we're talking about 1:00:03.520 --> 1:00:07.600 earlier with its link to environmentalism and and and and 1:00:07.600 --> 1:00:09.240 and how one could sort of use it as a 1:00:09.240 --> 1:00:13.439 way to excuse harm to Earth's environment. You know, it's 1:00:14.160 --> 1:00:16.520 if you have just a completely optimistic vision in the 1:00:16.520 --> 1:00:19.040 back of your head, it can potentially skew the way 1:00:19.200 --> 1:00:22.680 you look at the real world or consider other political 1:00:22.800 --> 1:00:26.920 or technological issues. Yeah. Um, so, so this has been interesting. 1:00:26.960 --> 1:00:29.480 It's got me thinking that this was a topic that 1:00:29.480 --> 1:00:31.600 that you turned up and wanted to do so, Robert, 1:00:31.600 --> 1:00:34.080 I'm curious, like what your opinion is, like, do you 1:00:34.120 --> 1:00:36.280 do you come down more on one side or the other? 1:00:36.440 --> 1:00:40.120 We obviously we've explored how there seemed to be, at 1:00:40.200 --> 1:00:43.760 least at first glanced strong moral hazards for both of 1:00:43.800 --> 1:00:46.320 the two options, either first staying on Earth or for 1:00:46.400 --> 1:00:49.320 founding colonies on other objects in the Solar System, and beyond. 1:00:49.880 --> 1:00:52.160 Do you lean one way or the other? Yeah, I 1:00:52.200 --> 1:00:56.680 think reading about this has made me lean more towards 1:00:56.760 --> 1:00:59.960 just the idea that we should we should be cautious 1:01:00.040 --> 1:01:02.360 and we should think about the problems because I guess, 1:01:02.360 --> 1:01:05.840 and you know, you know, through the consumption of science 1:01:05.840 --> 1:01:09.280 fiction and and also you know, the futurist thought on 1:01:09.320 --> 1:01:11.240 the subject. You know, I'd always just I think I'd 1:01:11.240 --> 1:01:13.520 always just kind of fallen into the category of thinking, well, 1:01:14.120 --> 1:01:16.480 you know, it's gonna be rough in many of these 1:01:16.480 --> 1:01:18.640 cases we are talking about harsh environments, but it will 1:01:18.680 --> 1:01:20.800 be it will be worth it, Like, you know, this 1:01:20.920 --> 1:01:24.840 is just this is just what humans do without really 1:01:24.880 --> 1:01:28.160 stopping to to ask, well, you know, why is that 1:01:28.200 --> 1:01:31.560 the case? And does it have to be that hard, uh, 1:01:31.600 --> 1:01:34.440 you know? Or or what should we potentially consider to 1:01:34.520 --> 1:01:39.280 mitigate the suffering on these other worlds, like these various 1:01:39.280 --> 1:01:42.360 sci fi visions, and not so much the really pessimistic 1:01:42.440 --> 1:01:44.880 and nihilistic ones, but the more middle of the road 1:01:44.920 --> 1:01:47.000 ones like does it have to be that way? Could 1:01:47.000 --> 1:01:50.160 it be more? Could it be more star trek, you know, 1:01:50.720 --> 1:01:53.600 could you lean into star Trek more? As again coming 1:01:53.600 --> 1:01:56.760 back to the more utopian vision of the future. And 1:01:56.760 --> 1:01:59.880 and this is something that I feel like we may 1:02:00.000 --> 1:02:04.200 have a false sense that we have explored these problems 1:02:04.280 --> 1:02:07.080 more than we actually have in the practical space, because 1:02:07.480 --> 1:02:11.080 we now have lots of astronauts who have devoted their 1:02:11.120 --> 1:02:15.080 lives to getting into and spending time in space. You know, 1:02:15.160 --> 1:02:17.120 we have astronauts that walked on the Moon. We have 1:02:17.160 --> 1:02:20.160 astronauts that trained to go to the International Space Station, 1:02:20.320 --> 1:02:22.400 and they all do it voluntarily, like they want to 1:02:22.400 --> 1:02:25.240 go there. They're not being forced despite all of the 1:02:25.280 --> 1:02:28.280 deprivations to the experience and and all of the you know, 1:02:28.480 --> 1:02:31.120 potentially negative health effects and so forth that come along 1:02:31.160 --> 1:02:35.040 with these experiences, but those are in the long run, 1:02:35.160 --> 1:02:39.160 these are actually quite limited commitments. These are people committing 1:02:39.520 --> 1:02:43.000 themselves and themselves only to a period of I don't know, 1:02:43.040 --> 1:02:45.800 a number of weeks or months at a time, going 1:02:45.840 --> 1:02:49.800 into these deprived environments, these altered environments. It is a 1:02:50.120 --> 1:02:53.560 very different thing actually to say we're going to found 1:02:53.600 --> 1:02:57.959 a permanent or semi permanent colony within these spaces where 1:02:57.960 --> 1:03:01.720 you not only commit yourself for much longer periods of time, 1:03:02.040 --> 1:03:06.120 but you're also potentially committing future generations of people born 1:03:06.200 --> 1:03:09.760 there and so forth, and you're creating a a you know, 1:03:09.840 --> 1:03:13.720 a fragmented off new culture in a sense. And in 1:03:13.760 --> 1:03:15.920 that we we have to engage in the sort of 1:03:16.240 --> 1:03:19.240 long term thinking that that you know, generally doesn't come 1:03:19.320 --> 1:03:23.200 naturally to humans, that we have to to work very 1:03:23.200 --> 1:03:25.160 hard at. You know. I also have to say this 1:03:25.200 --> 1:03:29.360 will probably uh factor into how I read uh a 1:03:29.440 --> 1:03:33.360 future science science fiction treatments of off world colonies, you know, 1:03:34.800 --> 1:03:36.600 and and and like I said that, some of these 1:03:36.600 --> 1:03:40.240 concerns I think have already been reflected to varying degrees 1:03:40.320 --> 1:03:45.120 in scientific science fictional creations. So um, you know, it's 1:03:45.120 --> 1:03:47.040 not like you know, I'm saying that this is going 1:03:47.080 --> 1:03:51.520 to to change other artists visions in all cases, but 1:03:51.640 --> 1:03:55.560 it is additional um food for thought. In the meantime, 1:03:55.600 --> 1:03:57.840 if you would like to check out other episodes of 1:03:57.840 --> 1:04:00.520 Stuff to Blow Your Mind, well pretty so. I would 1:04:00.520 --> 1:04:02.919 have directed you to the mothership to Stuff to Blow 1:04:02.920 --> 1:04:06.120 Your Mind dot com. But the mothership crashed and now 1:04:06.120 --> 1:04:09.720 we only have the off world colony of our our 1:04:09.800 --> 1:04:12.280 I heart listing for the podcast. If you gotta Stuff 1:04:12.280 --> 1:04:14.120 to Blow your Mind dot com, it will send you 1:04:14.280 --> 1:04:16.440 over to there, but we have we have colonies in 1:04:16.480 --> 1:04:19.320 other places as well, because you can ultimately find Stuff 1:04:19.360 --> 1:04:22.160 to Blow your Mind wherever you get your podcasts and 1:04:22.200 --> 1:04:25.040 wherever that happens to be, make sure you rate, review, 1:04:25.160 --> 1:04:29.000 and subscribe. Those are the ways you can support those 1:04:29.040 --> 1:04:32.800 little off world digital colonies, and in doing so, UH 1:04:33.000 --> 1:04:36.320 support Stuff to Blow Your Mind itself huge thanks as 1:04:36.320 --> 1:04:39.840 always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If 1:04:39.880 --> 1:04:41.320 you would like to get in touch with us with 1:04:41.440 --> 1:04:43.920 feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a 1:04:44.000 --> 1:04:46.000 topic for the future, or just to say hi, you 1:04:46.040 --> 1:04:49.320 can email us at contact at stuff to Blow Your 1:04:49.320 --> 1:04:59.560 Mind dot Com. Stuff to Blow Your mind. It's production 1:04:59.640 --> 1:05:02.400 of I heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, 1:05:02.600 --> 1:05:04.960 this is the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 1:05:04.960 --> 1:05:15.720 wherever you listen me to your favorite shows.