1 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how stup 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and this week we're talking about 4 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: a highly requested topic on bisexuality and more specifically bisexual erasure. Yeah, 5 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: we've talked about plenty of sexual orientation and sexuality issues 6 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:34,239 Speaker 1: on the podcast, but we have gotten a lot of 7 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 1: letters just kindly reminding us, Hey, guys, you know you 8 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: talk a lot about gay men or lesbians or trans 9 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: people and trans issues, but where is the discussion of bisexuality. 10 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 1: Kristen and I did do an episode on bisexual men, 11 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: mainly the fact that they exist, a couple of years ago, 12 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: and it was definitely time after hearing from you guys, 13 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: to revisit this topic. And we've also heard from stuff 14 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: Mom Ever Told You listeners about this when we have 15 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: talked about same sex marriage in the past, and specifically 16 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 1: requesting that we refer to it as same sex marriage 17 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: rather than gay marriage, because the firsthand from some listeners saying, 18 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 1: you know what, gay marriage doesn't exactly encompass my experience 19 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: as a bisexual woman who is married to another woman 20 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: or who wants to be married to another woman. So 21 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: there are there are different ways that this kind of 22 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: bisexual erasure can exist, simply in the way that we 23 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: talk about even issues of equality. Yeah, and a big 24 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: part of this conversation, whether it's about bisexuality in general 25 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: or the issue of bisexual erasure, is sort of the 26 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: discussion of stereotypes and the things that we assume about 27 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: bisexual people and how we contend to dismiss them. For instance, 28 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: when christ and I did that episode on the fact 29 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: that yes, bisexual men exist, I remember distinctly getting a 30 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: letter from a self described gay man who said, Oh, 31 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 1: this is actually a really interesting and enlightening episode for me, 32 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: because I literally assumed that any man who called himself 33 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: by was just lying that he was on the way 34 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:23,079 Speaker 1: to being gay. Yeah, the whole gay straight are lying 35 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 1: is a pretty common stereotype, and especially when it comes 36 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: to men in particular, because this whole conversation about bisexuality 37 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 1: and bisexual erasure definitely has a gendered element to it, 38 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: where it seems easier for us to accept that women 39 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: are capable of bisexuality, but men, for some reason are 40 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: harder for us to wrap around. And we've talked about 41 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: this before as well in the podcast in terms of 42 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: women's sexuality being considered more fluid whereas men tend to 43 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: be more rigid. And we'll talk more about the scientific 44 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: studies that foster those kinds of assumptions. But I mean, really, 45 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, Uh, it becomes clearer 46 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: and clearer the more research that comes out and the 47 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: more finely tuned that research is of just how much 48 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: sexuality is a spectrum, yeah, exactly, and issues of how 49 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:32,239 Speaker 1: that spectrum is that good because it includes bisexual people, 50 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: or is that negative for bisexuals because it erases them 51 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: and replaces them with the idea of sexual fluidity. This 52 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: is all stuff we're going to talk about in these 53 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: next two episodes. And we're also of course going to 54 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: talk a lot about media representation. This isn't just like 55 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: where the bisexuals in Kristen and Carolines conversations. This is 56 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: a bigger conversation, including the issue of representation on screen, 57 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: in media, in articles and studies and all of this stuff, 58 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: and how a lot of people out there, a lot 59 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: of critics and media watchers out there are saying, yeah, 60 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: we are getting more and better bisexual characters. Uh, LGBT 61 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: characters in general, but also bisexual characters. But it definitely 62 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: hasn't always been that way now. That stands in market 63 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: contrast to our conversation not long ago about the rise 64 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: of transgender characters on television and how two thousand fourteen 65 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: was hailed as this watershed year for trans characters really 66 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: coming to life in a more well rounded and holistic 67 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: kind of way with with limited still examples. But for 68 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 1: bisexuals in the media, and I'm talking about bisexuals I 69 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: r L and also on screen, two thousand fourteen, at 70 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: least according to The Advocate, was not such a great year. 71 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: In in fact, they called it the Year of bisexual erasure. Yeah, 72 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: And to kick off their article, the Advocate points to 73 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: specifically ben Ja deniz A Lewis's article in New York 74 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: Times magazine called the Scientific Quest to Prove Bisexuality Exists, 75 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: in which he talks about not only the scientific and 76 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: academic research that's going on into bisexuality, but also the stereotypes, 77 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: uh and assumptions that still exist. For instance, he lays 78 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 1: out the assumption that quote in the eyes of many Americans, 79 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: bisexuality despite occasional and exaggerated media reports of its chekness 80 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: remains a bewildering and potentially invented orientation favored by men 81 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: and denial about their homosexuality and by women who will 82 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: inevitably settle down with men. Now, when I read that 83 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: New York Times magazine article, I didn't think on its 84 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: on its face that it was negative. I didn't think 85 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: it was negative about bisexual people or the bisexual community. 86 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: But many critics uh pointed to the article and said 87 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: this only focuses on bisexual men, not enough about bisexual women, 88 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: but also points to the fact that Dennis A. Lewis 89 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: focused a lot on the scientific aspect, which by the way, 90 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: was in the headline, but the scientific aspect of studying 91 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: whether bisexuality exists at all, And so many people are saying, hey, 92 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: we are so past this point. We are so past 93 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 1: this point of proving whether bisexuality or pan sexuality or 94 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: sexual fluidity exists. We know it does because we're living it. 95 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 1: And so there was a lot of criticism there that 96 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 1: the writer, the New York Times magazine writer focused too 97 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 1: much on that and not enough about maybe the cultural issues. 98 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: But I will say this, sitting in my chair in 99 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: the Journalism School Auditorium that the headline says it all, 100 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: it's a scientific quest to prove bisexuality exists. And Denniz A. 101 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: Lewis spends a out of the time in the piece 102 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: hanging out with the founders of the American Instituted Bisexuality 103 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: and really focusing on their more political and cultural um 104 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: quest to mainstream bisexuality and to dismantled by phobia and 105 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: bisexual erasial well at the same time doing exactly what 106 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: he was probably assigned in terms of actually looking at 107 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: the scientific studies, because I don't think that we can 108 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: talk about one without the other. Now that might be 109 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: a very heteronormative thing for me to say, but I, 110 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: like you, I didn't read it as a biophobic or 111 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: by ignorant peace. And the fact of the matter is, like, 112 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: I don't think that Dennis A. Lewis, by focusing on 113 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: male sexuality is a bad reporter, but rather it says 114 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: a lot about our science and about like how those 115 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: studies are being conducted in our assumptions about female sexuality. 116 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: And it also, you like the conclusion of those most 117 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: recent studies that he reports on is that, oh yeah, 118 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: look at this fluidity of male sexuality that we didn't 119 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: realize before. But absolutely there is this um problematic conflating 120 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: of sexual physiological sexual arousal with sexual orientation, which, as 121 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: you know, people like Anna Paquin have had to point out, 122 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: those aren't necessarily the same things. Your sexual orientation isn't 123 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: necessarily the last person you've slept with, right, Yeah. And 124 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: and Mark Joseph Stern, writing for Slate uh in his 125 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 1: article is Bisexual Identity a Useful Fiction? Kind of points 126 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: this out and he says that several of Denniz A. 127 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: Lewis's interview subjects paint bisexuality is something you do. In 128 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: other words, they focused on the sexual or arousal aspect 129 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: of it, not something you are, so instead of focusing 130 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: on it as a cultural identity as a way to 131 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,199 Speaker 1: organize and form a community. Almost. Yeah, The quote from 132 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: that piece that jumped out to me was that the 133 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: by movement failed to articulate a coherent platform beyond its 134 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: initial goals of recognition. And there was a commentary who 135 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: you know, raised an important point that at least got 136 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: me thinking about whether sexual orientation must breed culture and 137 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: like what that relationship is as well, because I mean, 138 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: the more it seems so simple, you know, when when 139 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: you're when you just say, oh, bisexuality, like okay, we know, 140 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: like cut and dry, like what it is. But the 141 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: more we were reading about this Caroline, the less black 142 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: and white really it became. But that also goes to 143 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: the point that, you know, human sexuality is can be 144 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: a little complicated at times. Yeah, we I think we 145 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: a lot of us want it to be black and white. 146 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: I think a lot of us wanted to be either or. 147 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: I think the the and part or the also part 148 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: confuses and and maybe mystifies some of us a little 149 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 1: bit um. Of course. The advocate also points to the 150 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: now infamous Dear Prudence column over at Slate again called 151 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: private By, in which a woman writes into Prudy she's 152 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,239 Speaker 1: in a monogamous marriage with a man. She realizes she's bisexual. 153 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: She comes out to her husband, and she's basically like, 154 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: what should I do? Should I come out to my family? 155 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: My husband is telling me, no, what do you think 156 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: I should do? And pretty caught a lot of flak 157 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: for telling the woman not to tell the rest of 158 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: the family, but not only that, for equating bisexuality or 159 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: the realization that you are bisexual with realizing you like 160 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: being a dominatrix or realizing you're into plush ophelia, and 161 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:57,359 Speaker 1: people were like, uh, excuse me. Well, she was advocating 162 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: for her to remain closeted, stay in the closet, and 163 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: surely if like a gay guy wrote in saying like, 164 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 1: I'm in this marriage, but I realized I'm to a woman, 165 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: but I realized that I'm gay, what should I do? 166 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: Surely she wouldn't say stay in that closet, lock the door, 167 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: throw away the gay, because you know, you don't really 168 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: want to make Christmas dinners off word with grandmother already 169 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: so bad. Um. Well, yeah, because the whole thing she 170 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: was saying was that it would be one thing, dear reader, 171 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: if you were going to leave your husband for a woman, 172 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: but you're not, and so just stay in the closet, 173 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: because there is again no reason to upset everyone around you. 174 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 1: But in the process, of course, dear dear Prudence upset 175 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 1: everyone around her. But she did circle back and issue 176 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: a retraction of sorts in the face of so much controversy. Yeah. Well, 177 00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: on the celebrity end of the media spectrum, there have 178 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: been a lot of celebrities lately and specifically who either 179 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: said or appeared to indicate that bisexuality was just a phase, 180 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: which of course is another huge stereotype myth thing to 181 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: be debunked about bisexuality. But jesse j and Melby both 182 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: said that it was just a phase. And British diver 183 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: Tom Dailey came out as By and then said a 184 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: few months later that he was actually gay. Not that 185 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: there is anything wrong with that, not that there's anything 186 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: wrong with saying one thing and being like, well, I'm 187 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 1: still in this process of self discovery. Okay, actually I'm 188 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 1: gay or whatever. Um, But a lot of people pointed 189 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 1: to that and just said, see, see, well that was 190 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 1: the thing too. I forget which article we were reading, Caroline, 191 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 1: it was before he came out and said that he 192 00:12:55,120 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: is gay. And uh, commentator Andrew Sullivan, who is gay, 193 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,319 Speaker 1: when Daily first came out as By claiming to be By, 194 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,839 Speaker 1: he was like he called it and was like, no, no, no, 195 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: this guy is clearly gay. He's going to come out 196 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: in a few months. And this is what this is 197 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: the whole gay stareline thing where bisexually like saying that 198 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: you're by is the way to sort of ease the public, 199 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: homophobic public into coming to grips with your sexuality. And 200 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: people were really upset that he said that. But then 201 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: Daily comes back around and comes fully out, well out 202 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: of out of a different closet, I should say, because 203 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: coming out of By is also coming out of the closet. 204 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:40,439 Speaker 1: Was like the hall closet versus the guest bedroom closet. 205 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 1: I don't know different closet. I think they're all equal 206 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: closets because considering the kind of biphobia and bisexual discrimination 207 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: we've been reading about, I'm sure bisexuals listening would say, oh, 208 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: don't you say that I've got an easier closet to 209 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: come out of, you straight ladies. I do not think 210 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: that the hall closet is an easier closet. You should 211 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 1: see why haull of closet. It is full of stuff. Um. 212 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, No. Part of what upset people about what 213 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: Andrew Sullivan said, uh, was that not only did he say, oh, no, 214 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: he's he's gay. Daily is gay, but he also said 215 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: because that's my experience, because I did that too, because 216 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: I came out as by first and then came out 217 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: as gay. Um, And so people were like, Hello, not 218 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: everybody has shocker, Not everybody has the same experience. Well, 219 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: that's been a big issue with uh Dan Savage as 220 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: well of Savage Love and Savage Love cast, whom I 221 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: know some of our listeners do not enjoy at all. Um, 222 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: but he similarly first came out as by and then um, 223 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: you know, came out as gay, and he has gotten 224 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: in hot water with the bisexual community as well because 225 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: because of that. Who hasn't a harder closet to come 226 00:14:56,200 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: out of Because there is this I mean, there really 227 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: is a lot of controversy is in the right word, 228 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: but a lot of fighting, sort of a lot of 229 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: tension within the LGB community in terms of um, bisexuals 230 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: and the discrimination that they feel and that they experience 231 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: being accepted as valid by gay and lesbian people who say, no, no, no, 232 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: that's it's it's a different kind of discrimination because you 233 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: at least have the sort of straight guys of being 234 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: with an opposite sex partner. If that's what floats your 235 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: boat at the time, Yeah, yeah, And then I mean 236 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: I think a lot of bisexual people would come around 237 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: and argue, but I don't, you know, we don't want 238 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: to live that way. We don't want to treat if 239 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: we are in an opposite sex or cross sex relationship, 240 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: we don't want to treat that as a as a disguise. Um. 241 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: And also under the not helping category is millionaire matchmaker 242 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: Patty Stinger. Has she ever helped? Has she ever been 243 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: in the help category? Um? I decided from getting me 244 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: through boring Saturday afternoon. Yeah, giving me a reason to 245 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: live when I'm stuck on the elliptical or the treadmill. Yeah, 246 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: watching it's for some reason, it's always set to Bravo 247 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: and she's always on. I only watched Bravo with the gym. 248 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: That's like half the reason I go to the gym. Caroline, 249 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: I feel like I've confessed this on the podcast before. Well, 250 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: you know, we do what we have to do, Kristen. Um. 251 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: But so, yeah, not only did Patty Stinger say she 252 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: would never marry a by sexual man, uh, but she 253 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: also said that bisexual men are really just gay. But 254 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: also she said, you don't want a by woman as 255 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: the mother of your children. Okay, alright, so hello, here 256 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: is a glaring example of biophobia. Yeah, because okay, so 257 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: I read that and then I stopped and I read 258 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: it again, and then I read it again, and and 259 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: what the F does she mean? So? Okay, probably because 260 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: she assumed that bisexual women are hyper sexualized, because the 261 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: whole there's that other, whole, entire stereotype and myth about 262 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 1: bisexual people that everybody, whether you're whether you're gay or 263 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: whether you're straight, you'll look at bisexual people and you're like, 264 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: you're just kind of slooty and greedy, are you? You 265 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: just want to have as much sex with as many 266 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: people as often as possible. Well, yeah, and and that 267 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 1: that to me is sort of mystifying because just because 268 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 1: you are open to loving or being attracted to a 269 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: man or a woman, does that necessarily mean that you're 270 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 1: going to have sex with them at the same time 271 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: all the time. Yeah, we assume that bisexual like equal 272 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: sex drive, which is uh, which is definitely faulty logic. Yeah, 273 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: I mean, so obviously we have a lot of myths 274 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: to bust throughout this episode. Um. But also into the 275 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: not helpful category was the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, 276 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: which last year wrote a blog post saying that bisexuality 277 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: was binary. And this is a huge argument. You here 278 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: a lot and thus erasing of trans and gender queer people, 279 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: so basically saying, bisexual people, your your whole stick is limiting, 280 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 1: to which a bisexual trans person wrote into the task 281 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,439 Speaker 1: Force and basically said, hey, jerks, you own the un 282 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: apology because I am both trans and bisexual. And so 283 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,239 Speaker 1: the task Force not only deleted the blog post and 284 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: offered sort of a backhanded apology basically the whole thing 285 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: of like, if you got offended, we're sorry, um, but 286 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: they also changed their name to the National lgbt Q 287 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 1: Task Force. They tossed the b in there, just sweep 288 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: sweep all that out the door. Yeah. Yet again an 289 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: example of mixing up what we're talking about, because transgender 290 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: is not a sexual orientation, it's a gender identity. These 291 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: are different things people. And of course this isn't just 292 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: going on among the Patti Stangers of the world. This 293 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: is happening on you know, scripted television as well, although 294 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: of course I'm a millionaire matchmaker clearly scripted, as I 295 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: can tell you firsthand. Um, there's the so called straightwashing 296 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: of characters such as Piper Chapman on Orange as a 297 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: New Black and Caroline. I had not even thought about 298 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: this before I mean an example of my own bi blindness. 299 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: I hadn't thought about this before we were reading up 300 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: for this podcast. Yeah, because she's referred to I think 301 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: it's by her fiance, right, And then one of the 302 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: first episodes, she's referred to as a former lesbian. Yeah, 303 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: she's always yeah, it's always a former lesbian. I think 304 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: bisexual has been mentioned maybe one time, but then Alex 305 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: refers to Piper as a straight girl, just flat out 306 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: just straight girl, playing into the stereotype of bisexual women 307 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: just playing gay for a day who were actually straight, um, 308 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: and going a bit farther back in television history to 309 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 1: sex in the City. I do clearly remember the episode 310 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 1: where Carrie dates a young bisexual guy and at one 311 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: point in her you know her monologue, she she describes 312 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 1: him as on a layover on the way to gay town, 313 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: and the whole thing, like she ends up at this 314 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: playing to spin the bottle game with him, and she's like, oh, 315 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: maybe I'm going to kiss a girl because this guy 316 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,120 Speaker 1: is bisexual, and like all of his friends are are 317 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: are bisexual and really loving and I don't know if 318 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: I can handle this, because I think everybody wants to 319 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: make out with everybody else. It was a very like 320 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 1: hyper sexualized portrayal of them and p s. They don't 321 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,199 Speaker 1: they don't end up living happily ever after? Yeah, what 322 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: does he end up being gay? Or just being by? 323 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 1: She leaves the party, She spin the Mottle party spoiler alert, 324 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 1: because she's just like, you know what, this isn't for me. 325 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: You're sexuality isn't for me, because well it was the 326 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: whole thing. They would like, go out and she would 327 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,880 Speaker 1: see an attractive guy and then look over and he's 328 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: looking at the attractive guy too. What do you do 329 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: with that? I mean, come on, it was the nineties, 330 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: it was the ninthes. No, it wasn't the nineties, it 331 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 1: was the early two thousand's how old am I? Kristen 332 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: Will speaking of the nineties, Let's go back to the nineties, 333 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: the eighteen nineties, the eighteen nineties. Yeah, you didn't think 334 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 1: we'd let you off the hook with a little bit 335 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: of bisexual history, did you know, Evans? No, it would 336 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: be impossible. Um So. In a late nineteenth century, scientists 337 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 1: first start using the term bisexual, but it was used 338 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 1: to describe the hypothetical capacity of an organism to develop 339 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 1: into either a male or female of its species, so 340 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: not so much having to do with your sexuality or 341 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: sexual orientation, but more so having to do with biology. Um. 342 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: And so this idea began applying to humans human people 343 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 1: for the first time when it was discovered that human 344 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: embryos didn't show sexual characteristics until twelve weeks. And Freud 345 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: of course clung on to this idea of bisexuality in 346 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: a more biological sense, and it informed his thinking about 347 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:27,360 Speaker 1: bisexual people. Basically that to have the physical characteristics of 348 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: both sexes naturally meant you'd have the psychic characteristics of both. 349 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: So bisexuality implies by genderism, and Freud's definition of bisexuality 350 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: tied together the concepts of disharmonious or shifting gender identity, 351 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 1: as well as dual attraction and the universal sexual ambiguity 352 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: of the human anatomy, which that's that's a lot to consider. 353 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: The universal sexual ambiguity of the human anatomy just makes 354 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: me think that we're all just lumps of plato random 355 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 1: we sometimes they get pushed together and sometimes we get 356 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: squeezed out of that like Plato pasta maker, pasta maker. 357 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: That was my favorite. I know mine too. Um. Basically, 358 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: as with a lot of Freud's theories, like everything was 359 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,479 Speaker 1: cool when you're an immature human. When you're a child, Uh, 360 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: it's okay to be ambiguous as a kid. It's okay 361 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 1: to still be anal retentive, for instance, as a child. 362 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: But once you became an adult, you better have grown 363 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: out of that stuff. You better get rid of that 364 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: anal retention you. Yeah, you better get rid of that. 365 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 1: By genderism, bi sexuality in the way that he thought 366 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: of it. And what's so fascinating too, And I had 367 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: never heard this, or I don't remember hearing this, but Freud, 368 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: in addition to many of his contemporaries, tied bi sexuality 369 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 1: to hysteria, and in his paper Hysterical Fantasies and their 370 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: Relation to Bisexuality, he wrote that hysterical symptoms express the 371 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: combination of masculine and feminine sexual fantasies, so that whole 372 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: like floating uterus women are hysterical thing. Apparently it all 373 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,239 Speaker 1: has to do with our innate bisexuality. Yeah, because of 374 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:21,120 Speaker 1: the struggle between those I guess masculine and feminine forces. 375 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: And if they're imbalanced, then that's also gonna tip your 376 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: uterus off of its balancing point into the floating abyss. 377 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 1: That's your woo. Yeah, I don't think I'm ever gonna 378 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: use the phrase tip tip the scale again. I think 379 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: it's only going to be to tip the uterus, really 380 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: tip the ute today. But while Freud was starting to 381 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: play around with this idea of bisexuality in a more 382 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: uh psychic sense and link it to hysteria, if we 383 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 1: look at bisexuality in the way that we think of 384 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,880 Speaker 1: it today in terms of orientation, we do have some 385 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 1: literary examples from the turn of the century with the 386 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: Bloomsberry Group and lit nerds out there I'm sure are 387 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 1: very familiar with the Bloomsbury's, with authors like Ian Forrester, 388 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 1: John Maynard Keynes, and Virginia Woolf, who I believe was lesbian, 389 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: not necessarily bisexual, or had lots of lesbian overtones and 390 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 1: her books well, but her sister was also in this group, 391 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: and her sister's husband, and I think there was a 392 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 1: lot of like, I don't want to say swinging, but 393 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: there was a lot of like sharing of partners, love 394 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,959 Speaker 1: is love and love trump's gender. Yeah, and weren't they 395 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 1: painting lots of portraits of each other. You're telling me 396 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: about this, Caroline, Yeah, I loved it. So I was reading. 397 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: I was trying to find more information about the Bloomsberry Group. Uh, 398 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: and I did find one source that had a lot 399 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 1: of paintings like that was basically the introduction to the 400 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: book was just like portrait after poor it after portrait 401 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: because all of these literary and artistic people who made 402 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 1: up this loose collection of humans referred to as the 403 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 1: Bloomsbury Group, they all painted each other. It's fascinating, Caroline. 404 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, whatever I hear Bloomsbury, I think 405 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: Doonesbury like Dunsberry Group is just people sitting around reading 406 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: that old, that old political cartoon, and that is how 407 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: my brain works. Yeah, and I really I do wish 408 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: that I could have found out more about this group. 409 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: I feel like the resources that I stumbled across weren't 410 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: super flushed out. But it's not necessarily that these folks 411 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: in this group were, you know, waving a flag for bisexuality, 412 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: or that they were advocating for LGBT rights or anything 413 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: like that. But they were sort of on that early 414 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: forefront of love is love, of gender doesn't matter, you know, 415 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 1: we love who we love, We're going to support each other. 416 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: It's it's sort of like a kind of like a 417 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: hippie artist commune in London. Yeah, I mean it seems 418 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: like any time you have more bohemian artist types, they're 419 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,360 Speaker 1: usually a bit more open to following your feelings and 420 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: loving whom you want to love. Um So, not surprisingly, 421 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 1: in nineteen fourteen, speaking of artists, a film called a 422 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: Florida Enchantment featured America's first bisexual character. But things aren't 423 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: all rosy all the time. We are talking about bisexual 424 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: erasure and dismissal today. Uh So, in just ten years 425 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 1: after that movie comes out, the Society for Human Rights, 426 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: which is the first officially recognized gay organization in the US, 427 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: excluded bisexuals. They're basically just you know, like a lot 428 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: of people today still feel that it's your your gay 429 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: straighter lying, and so they were not included in that group. 430 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: But in the nineteen forties and fifties we have Alfred 431 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:01,400 Speaker 1: Kinsey come along, who offers some empirical data about how 432 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: the world is not divided into sheep and goats, and 433 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: in his examinations of adult sexual behavior, he estimated that 434 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: nearly forty six percent of guys had experienced both the 435 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: same and opposite sex sexual activities during their adult lives. 436 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: And using his Kinsey Heterosexual Homosexual Rating scale, he said 437 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: eleven point six percent of white men between twenty and 438 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 1: thirty five had a rating of three, which is about 439 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: equal straight and gay experience response. So you hear a 440 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: three rating a lot when with conversations of bisexuality, because 441 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: that is plotted right in the middle of the Kinsey scale. Yeah, 442 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: and among women, he found few with exclusively lesbian histories. 443 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: And when it comes to the Kinsey scale, Kinsey said 444 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: that just seven percent of never married women and four 445 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: scent of previously married women ages thirty five got a 446 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: rating of three. Yeah. I mean keep in mind too, 447 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: we're going through an historical timeline. This is taking place 448 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: in the nineteen forties and fifties. We will get to 449 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: more current statistics on bisexuality later on. But the thing 450 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: to understand is the importance of this scale, because this 451 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: this really solidifies the idea of sexual orientation being a 452 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 1: spectrum rather again than you know, just groups of sheep 453 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: and goats, right, which is which is a Kinsey quote, 454 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: uh that he was talking about how men are not 455 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:42,479 Speaker 1: just too discreete heterosexual and homosexual populations. Yeah, and just 456 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: bleeding our little brains out. It's the loud field of 457 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: people yelling for sex um. But a lot of this research, though, 458 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: going on during this time and really through today, is 459 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: really focused on men. I mean and and this is 460 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: something that is common medical research of the mid twentieth 461 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: century across the board, whether we're talking about sexuality or 462 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: talking about drug trials, whatever might have been going on. 463 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: Because thanks to uh, this wonky thing that women have 464 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: called menstruation and periods and fertility, men were considered the 465 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: ideal research subjects because we have they have fewer variables 466 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 1: in their bodies. So it's it's no big surprise that 467 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: a bulk of this research is looking more at men 468 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: and also to probably a little driven by the self 469 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: interest of the mostly male doctors who were doing the 470 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: doing the science at the time. And we'll move more 471 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: through the mid to late twentieth century in in our 472 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: bisexuality timeline. We come right back from a quick break, 473 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: so we left off in It's a World War two 474 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: with our bisexual slash bisexual ratier timeline, and now it's 475 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: time to get into the swing in seventies, although I 476 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: think it's actually the swing in sixties usually, But for bisexuality, 477 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: the seventies was a pretty swing in time because this 478 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: is when the contemporary bisexual movement begins, with many organizations 479 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: led by men. And this is also of course, and 480 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: we see the whole bisexual chic theme emerging media. Hello 481 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: David Bowie. Uh. Plenty of rock stars and artists were 482 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: hooking up with men and women, and the media was 483 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: reporting all about it, all about these glamorous rock stars 484 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: and artists. Um. But on the political side. In nineteen 485 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: seventy two, the National Bisexual Liberation Group forms, which published 486 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: the first bisexual focused newsletter, and in the mid nineteen 487 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: seventies we see groups like New York's bi Forum and 488 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: Chicago's Byways forming. In San Francisco starts the Bisexual Center, 489 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: and then in nineteen seventy eight, sort of as a 490 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: follow up to the in Z Scale, we have psychiatrists 491 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: Fritz Klein right the Bisexual Option, which was one of 492 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: the first in depth explorations of bisexuality, and along with 493 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: that he releases the Klein Grid, which analyzes seven aspects 494 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: of sexual orientation in people's past, present, and ideal lives 495 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: for twenty one possible combinations, and Klein wrote, it is 496 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: the quality of loving, not the gender of love's objects 497 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: that should come under fire. I'm still stuck on that 498 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: whole twenty one possible combinations thing. It's it sounds a 499 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: little bit like a game of Mash, you know, where 500 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: you can have so many different possible combinations for your 501 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: ideal life. I love that so much sexual orientation Mash. 502 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: I was thinking almost in terms of, like, it's less 503 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: of spectrum and more the matrix. Um, but yeah, I 504 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: love I love, I love Mash. My sexuality is a 505 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: convertible with an apartment on the beach. I feel like 506 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 1: my sexuality also involves the beach somehow. Um but you 507 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: know so. Kristen mentioned that a lot of the studies 508 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: that are happening are focused on men. A lot of 509 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: the organizations focused on bisexuality have been led by men. 510 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: But in the nineteen eighties we start to see women 511 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: leading more bisexual advocacy and support groups. After experiencing alienation 512 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: from lesbian communities, we get the Boston in Seattle bisexual 513 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: women's networks forming UH and we see more and more 514 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: groups popping up in Europe and the groups that exist 515 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: in the US getting more and more organized. Yeah, and 516 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 1: when bisexual women at the time were experiencing alienation from 517 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: lesbian activist groups at the time because of similar reasons 518 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 1: why they they aren't always embraced today, where it's like, no, 519 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: if you might still want to have relationships with men, 520 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: you have attractions to men, you're not really part of 521 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: our agenda. So it was important for them to create 522 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: their own spaces as well. And in nighties seven sort 523 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: of showing just how much organization is happening at the time, 524 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 1: a bisexual contingent was present for the March on Washington 525 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 1: for Gay and lesbian rights. Yeah. And then moving into 526 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 1: the nine nineties, we see the first US and international 527 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 1: bisexual conferences by groups start lobbying exclusively gay and lesbian 528 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,760 Speaker 1: groups to include bisexuals, and in we see a familiar 529 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: name surface. Fritz Klein found the American Institute of Bisexuality, 530 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: which Kristen mentioned earlier, and today it has a nearly 531 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: seven million dollar endowment and writing over at the New 532 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,359 Speaker 1: York Times magazine, Deniz A. Lewis writes, in the last 533 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: few years, the American Institute of Bisexuality has supported the 534 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:59,280 Speaker 1: work of about forty researchers, including those looking at bisexual 535 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: behavior and mental health, sexual arousal patterns of bisexual men, 536 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: bisexual youth, and quote unquote mostly straight men. And this 537 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: is important. I mean this is important to note because, 538 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 1: as a lot of researchers have said, including Lisa Diamond, 539 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: who's a big name in studies of women's sexuality and 540 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: sexual fluidity, it's historically been kind of on the difficult 541 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: side to secure funding for sexual orientation or sexuality research 542 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:30,280 Speaker 1: unless you're somehow tying it in specifically to mental health 543 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: or things like AIDS in HIV research. Yeah, studying sexual 544 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 1: orientation just for its own sake is usually, I guess, 545 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: kind of pooh pooed in the research community. And I 546 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 1: wonder too if it if that is another example of 547 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,919 Speaker 1: some bi stigma going on, because it's like, oh, well, 548 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: why why do we really need to pay focus to this? 549 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,279 Speaker 1: Because I wonder if there is that assumption tied in 550 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 1: there of like this is just a term for people 551 00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: who who might be swingers or might just want to 552 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: have a lot of sex, Like who who cares? Really? 553 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 1: But the thing is, even though there have now been 554 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: decades on decades of organizing going on the A I B. 555 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:18,280 Speaker 1: And you know, bisexual people in general are still fighting 556 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 1: for recognition. And if we look to today, the Advocate 557 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:30,360 Speaker 1: reports that several studies indicate that quote, bisexuals make up 558 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 1: the largest portion of the LGBT population, but they have 559 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: some of the worst representation. Yeah, and so what is 560 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 1: that proportion? Uh? There's a frequently cited meta analysis from 561 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 1: April eleven by the Williams Institute out of the University 562 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 1: of California that points out that there are approximately nine 563 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:58,439 Speaker 1: millions self identified LGBT Americans, a figure which everybody loves 564 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 1: to quote is roughly a wevalent to the population of 565 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:07,400 Speaker 1: New Jersey. Yeah. Um, And that met analysis looked at 566 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of different surveys and studies looking at 567 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: the proportions of not only gay Americans but bisexual Americans, um, 568 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: and found that on average, about one point eight percent 569 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: of American adults identify as bisexual, compared to one point 570 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: seven percent who identify as lesbian or gay. So a 571 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: lot of people are looking at this and saying, where 572 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 1: is the representation if if one point seven percent of 573 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 1: Americans identify as lesbian or gay, and we see a 574 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 1: lot of lesbian gay characters on TV or written about 575 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 1: in the media, and the number is about the same 576 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:47,759 Speaker 1: for bisexual Americans. Where are they in the closet? A 577 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 1: lot of them are in the closet. According to a 578 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 1: PE research survey, only twenty eight percent of people who 579 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: identify as bisexual, so that they're open about it. And 580 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: for you know, all the reasons that we have touched 581 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 1: on earlier, of if you are a mother, of people 582 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: shunning you as being an irresponsible parent for that reason, 583 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:15,920 Speaker 1: um of not wanting people to constantly ask you about 584 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 1: what you did over the weekend, kind of crazy things 585 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 1: that you get into, wondering about the validity of your 586 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: same or opposite sex relationships, essentially probably wanting to keep 587 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,840 Speaker 1: your private life private. Yeah, and I'm sure all of 588 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 1: the stereotypes and biphobia that we've already discussed is part 589 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: of that. That bisexual people are lying and confused, that 590 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 1: they're greedy, selfish and slutty, or that they're simply afraid 591 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: to come out as gay, or that it's just a phase. 592 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 1: And so it's for these reasons that the San Francisco 593 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 1: Human Rights Commission recently called bisexuals an invisible majority in 594 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,840 Speaker 1: need of resources and support, and the need for that 595 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,800 Speaker 1: support is very real because, as Glad and Brian do 596 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 1: choose a researcher on bisexuality and health at Indiana University Bloomington, 597 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: have noted, compared to straight and gay bulk bisexual people 598 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: face higher rates of anxiety, depression, and other mood disorders, 599 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:17,719 Speaker 1: as well as substance abuse, victimization by violence, suicidal ideation, 600 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: and sexual health concerns. Yeah, I mean I would. I 601 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,799 Speaker 1: would imagine that if you feel invisible, or if you 602 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 1: feel like you have to be invisible because you just 603 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 1: don't want to face all of these awful negative assumptions 604 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 1: and stereotypes about you and your sexuality, it might be 605 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: hard to ask for help, whether you need actual like 606 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,799 Speaker 1: mental health counseling of some kind, or or whether you 607 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,879 Speaker 1: just are concerned like this list pointed out about your 608 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: sexual health. So I imagine that while bisexual erasure on 609 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 1: TV or whatever, you could send people poo poo that 610 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,800 Speaker 1: as not being that important, it is important in terms 611 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 1: of representation and seeing yourself on screen, having that lifestyle, 612 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 1: that life normalized, and at this point Caroline. On a 613 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 1: side note, I would like to point out that we 614 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:15,440 Speaker 1: have used the phrase poop poo twice in this episode. 615 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,759 Speaker 1: It might it might be a record. That's well, that's 616 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,239 Speaker 1: actually the subtitle in my brain of this episode, poo 617 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 1: pooing bisexuality. Yeah no, no, no boo poopooing bisexual erasureized 618 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 1: should say we are poo pooing that. Yeah. Yeah, the 619 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:35,319 Speaker 1: end of people poo pooing bisexuality. Um. But this is 620 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,239 Speaker 1: part one of a two part conversation we're going to 621 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 1: have about this because we've been talking about the history 622 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 1: and more of the real world stats and facts, and 623 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 1: next episode we're going to dive more into pop cultural 624 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:54,279 Speaker 1: representations of bisexuality and get into more research on this 625 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,400 Speaker 1: on why it seems so hard for our society to 626 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:03,840 Speaker 1: wrap its brain or round bisexuality and what bisexuality means 627 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 1: in the kind of language that has evolved around it 628 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 1: as well. So tune in for that. But in the meantime, 629 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,840 Speaker 1: we want to hear from you and your experiences with this, 630 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 1: So Mom seven House stu works dot com is our 631 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 1: email address. You can also tweet us at mom Stuff 632 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,800 Speaker 1: Podcast or messages on Facebook and We've got a couple 633 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:23,759 Speaker 1: of messages to share with you when we come right 634 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 1: back from a quick break, and now back to the show. Well, 635 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,759 Speaker 1: Kristen and I have a couple of letters here about 636 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 1: our single Ladies series that we did. Uh and I 637 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 1: have a letter here from Yell. She says, as an 638 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:44,719 Speaker 1: American living in Israel, I can certainly verify what Professor 639 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:49,839 Speaker 1: Kennett Lahad said is true. I've been to thirty one 640 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,360 Speaker 1: weddings in my four and a half years in this country. 641 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,000 Speaker 1: Single by choice is not a welcome option in Jerusalem, 642 00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:01,319 Speaker 1: especially not in religious circles. Even lenient religious circles are 643 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,279 Speaker 1: entrenched in the idea of marriage. Tel Aviv may be 644 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 1: slightly different as there are fewer religious people there, but 645 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,360 Speaker 1: I believe the ideal of marriage is strong in Israel 646 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 1: no matter what, as even secular Jews are often quite traditional. 647 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:16,920 Speaker 1: I remember being eighteen and thinking that I would be 648 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: married at twenty two, and as I passed that age, 649 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,680 Speaker 1: I just always assumed it was another year or so. 650 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,640 Speaker 1: I'm almost twenty eight now, and in the secular American 651 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:27,759 Speaker 1: world I would be viewed as young with plenty of 652 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,680 Speaker 1: time and no need to worry. But Jerusalem is a 653 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 1: little more homogeneous than say New York City. As a 654 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,480 Speaker 1: moderately religious Jew in Jerusalem, I see all my friends, 655 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 1: my age and older panicking a little as they all assumed, 656 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,840 Speaker 1: like I did, that we'd be married. Now. None of 657 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,360 Speaker 1: us are single by choice, and it definitely has to 658 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 1: do with what Dr Lahad said about our upbringing ingraining 659 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,319 Speaker 1: us with the expectation of marriage and the belief that 660 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 1: being married is a sign of status and stability. We 661 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,040 Speaker 1: have a great social circle that combines young marrieds and singles. 662 00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,920 Speaker 1: But I see what happens when people stay single well 663 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,800 Speaker 1: into their thirties or forties. They come around two singles events, 664 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:07,560 Speaker 1: and a lot of people look at them like they're 665 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,840 Speaker 1: creepy or sad or weird. It's so messed up, and 666 00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,759 Speaker 1: I feel like that's what is scaring my friends and myself. 667 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 1: We don't want to end up being pitied and invited 668 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:18,839 Speaker 1: to things as an act of charity, or being set 669 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:20,879 Speaker 1: up with much older men or people that we would 670 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,399 Speaker 1: have to be settling for. It's frustrating that single by 671 00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,319 Speaker 1: choice isn't really an option here because the stigma is 672 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,120 Speaker 1: so strong and the communal life is such that if 673 00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:32,840 Speaker 1: you choose that life, you are actively choosing to be 674 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:36,239 Speaker 1: ostracized in a way. The older you get here. If 675 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,800 Speaker 1: you stay single, no matter what, people have it in 676 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,480 Speaker 1: the back of their minds that you are desperate, there's 677 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,279 Speaker 1: no escaping it. I agree with Dr Laha that the 678 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:48,400 Speaker 1: conversation needs to be continued to make life better for singles, 679 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:50,600 Speaker 1: so that it can be seen as another way to live, 680 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,200 Speaker 1: not a different way to live. Well, thank you so 681 00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,120 Speaker 1: much for your letter. Well, I've got a letter here 682 00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,680 Speaker 1: from Danny, who writes, I recently discovered your podcast an 683 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 1: absolutely fell in love with it. I even got my 684 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:05,239 Speaker 1: fourteen year old brother to listen to it when he 685 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,440 Speaker 1: wants to learn stuff and encourage him to go there 686 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:11,160 Speaker 1: for information on women and sexuality instead of scouring tumbler. 687 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,160 Speaker 1: But I love that, although, by the way, just also 688 00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,440 Speaker 1: sent him to stuff I've never told you dot tumbler 689 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:21,080 Speaker 1: dot com. He can stay on tumbler um. So, Danny writes, 690 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 1: I wanted to write you about your recent episode on 691 00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,719 Speaker 1: the concept of single by choice. I'm a nineteen year 692 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:31,080 Speaker 1: old first generation immigrant Hispanic woman who noticed some similarities 693 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:33,759 Speaker 1: among my peers of the same bracket. I always joke 694 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,920 Speaker 1: with other young Hispanic immigrant women that after the king 695 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,040 Speaker 1: sen Era comes the wedding, and sadly I discovered that 696 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:44,040 Speaker 1: to be true. At sixteen, my very Catholic Hispanic mother 697 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:45,920 Speaker 1: sat me down and talked to me about the importance 698 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 1: of finding me a man soon and settling down, giving 699 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:51,800 Speaker 1: her lots of grand babies. When I told her I 700 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,000 Speaker 1: wanted to go to college and law school, then I 701 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:57,120 Speaker 1: would think about maybe perhaps, and also I kind of 702 00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:01,279 Speaker 1: like women, she was livid. Now I'm nineteen, have my 703 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,840 Speaker 1: paralegal certificate, made the lead career wise from McDonald's to 704 00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,040 Speaker 1: a legal assistant at a law firm, and planned to 705 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:10,839 Speaker 1: be a judge. Hey, good for you. Of course, none 706 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:12,239 Speaker 1: of this is a valid because I don't have a 707 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,560 Speaker 1: man by my side, and my parents have made that 708 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,959 Speaker 1: very clear. Both tried desperately to play matchmaker and pair 709 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,160 Speaker 1: me with men, sometimes way older than me, with the 710 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 1: hopes that I will come to my senses and stop 711 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,319 Speaker 1: looking at girls all dreamy and have a kid. Poor 712 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,719 Speaker 1: Lemore de dios talking to other college as Hispanic and 713 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,080 Speaker 1: immigrant women, we are all very similar boat. Most of 714 00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,000 Speaker 1: us have fallen to the dreamer category and legal limbo 715 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,600 Speaker 1: girls just wanting an education are pushed to get married asap. 716 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:42,839 Speaker 1: Some of us are even told Mary first, he can 717 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: pay for your expensive degree. Some of us just kind 718 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:47,480 Speaker 1: of shake it off and try to tell them that 719 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,799 Speaker 1: we're not living at the ranch with Grandma who got 720 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,640 Speaker 1: married and got right to having kids at fifteen, and 721 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:56,560 Speaker 1: some given Mary young and actually lead really successful lives. 722 00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,640 Speaker 1: For some of us, single by choice is not an option. 723 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,200 Speaker 1: Some Hispanic women who are first generation immigrants and still 724 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:07,240 Speaker 1: single at are ostracized by their own family and praised 725 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:10,120 Speaker 1: by their feminist friends. It puts us between the wall 726 00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:12,520 Speaker 1: of praise and society at the cost of family rejection 727 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,840 Speaker 1: and even banishment of being labeled as gringa in the 728 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,120 Speaker 1: sense that we're leaving behind all trace of our culture 729 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,359 Speaker 1: and told every accomplishment we do is invalid without a man. 730 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,799 Speaker 1: I have cousins who are already considered old maids at 731 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,520 Speaker 1: twenty three or younger. I would love to hear from 732 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,520 Speaker 1: other first generation immigrants in other cultures on the subject. 733 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,840 Speaker 1: I know for some arranged marriage, even if one's parents 734 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:36,840 Speaker 1: are in totally different parts of the world, is a 735 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:40,320 Speaker 1: very real thing. Shout out to all immigrant women struggling 736 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,400 Speaker 1: to tell their parents that's just not how it works, 737 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,520 Speaker 1: your mom. Once again, I adore your podcast and encourage 738 00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,360 Speaker 1: everyone to listen to it whenever they can. Sex education 739 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:54,120 Speaker 1: saves lives, and you two ladies are saving lives every day, 740 00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:58,520 Speaker 1: So thanks so much, Danny and listen. Keep on going 741 00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,680 Speaker 1: for that judge ship. You can do it. And if 742 00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:03,960 Speaker 1: you have a letter to send to us, mom stuff 743 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 1: a house. Stuff works dot Com is our address and 744 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:08,239 Speaker 1: for links to all of our social media as well 745 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,799 Speaker 1: as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including this 746 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,640 Speaker 1: one with our sources so you can learn more about 747 00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,839 Speaker 1: bisexuality and bi phobia. Head on over to stuff Mom 748 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:22,880 Speaker 1: Never Told You dot com for more on this and 749 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,440 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot 750 00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:33,600 Speaker 1: com