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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. A ban on TikTok

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Speaker 1: passed by Congress last April is set to take effect

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Speaker 1: this coming Sunday.

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Speaker 2: They call it a divest or ban measure, so basically,

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Speaker 2: the measure calls upon byte Dance to sell TikTok before

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Speaker 2: January nineteenth or face a ban.

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Speaker 1: Sarah Forden runs Bloomberg's legal team, which has been covering

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Speaker 1: a challenge to that law filed by TikTok and some

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Speaker 1: of its users last year. At issue is TikTok's ownership.

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Speaker 1: Even though the hugely popular social media app is technically

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Speaker 1: run by an American company, it's owned by byte Dance,

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Speaker 1: which is a Chinese tech giant, and the nature of

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Speaker 1: the relationship between byte Dance and the Chinese government has

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Speaker 1: raised national security concerns for US intelligence officials and US

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Speaker 1: lawmakers for years. One worry is that the app could

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Speaker 1: give China acts to American phones and American data. Another

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Speaker 1: is about whether the apps algorithm could be used to

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Speaker 1: influence politics or spread disinformation. TikTok has been adamant that

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Speaker 1: these concerns are unfounded, and their lawsuit has made it

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Speaker 1: all the way to the US Supreme Court, So this.

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Speaker 2: Case really picks national security interests against free speech.

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Speaker 1: On Friday, the Court indicated it's likely to uphold the

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Speaker 1: divest or ban law, bringing months of debate to a head.

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Speaker 1: That means if ByteDance doesn't sell, the ban could go

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Speaker 1: into effect in just a few days.

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Speaker 2: So they still have time. You know, obviously the clock

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Speaker 2: is ticking.

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Speaker 1: But there's another major player complicating this case, President elect

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump. He said he opposes the ban and wants

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Speaker 1: to negotiate a deal himself. And the day after TikTok's

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Speaker 1: January nineteenth deadline is inauguration day. This is the take

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Speaker 1: from Bloomberg News. I'm Sarah Holder today on the show.

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Speaker 1: The TikTok case could get decided by the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: any moment now. If the ban goes into effect, what

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Speaker 1: would that mean for the apps one hundred and seventy

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Speaker 1: million users, for competitor tech platforms, and for US China relations.

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Speaker 1: And how could Trump's imminent inauguration call the decision into question? Sarah,

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Speaker 1: It seems like it's actually getting closer to happening. The

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court indicated last week that it is likely to

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Speaker 1: uphold a US law banning TikTok if it's Chinese parent

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Speaker 1: company ByteDance doesn't sell to an American firm by January nineteenth,

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Speaker 1: walk us through how we got here. When did Washington

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Speaker 1: first start raising these concerns about TikTok's ownership.

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Speaker 2: Mean, there have been concerns about TikTok's ownership floating around

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Speaker 2: Washington for years. And if you go back even to

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Speaker 2: the first Trump administration, he himself was proposing a ban

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Speaker 2: in past, an executive order banning TikTok, which then got

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Speaker 2: hung up in the courts. So intelligence circles, national security

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Speaker 2: circles have been expressing concerns that TikTok could provide a

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Speaker 2: tool for the Chinese government to both a spy on

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Speaker 2: and collect data on American citizens, but also use the platform,

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Speaker 2: which is highly wildly popular, use it to influence people,

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Speaker 2: feed them, you know, surreptitious information with goals of creating

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Speaker 2: unrest and divisiveness in this country.

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Speaker 1: What do we know about the extent of the relationship

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Speaker 1: between the Chinese government and ByteDance. Is there evidence that

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Speaker 1: China could use TikTok to spy on people in the US?

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Speaker 2: You know, TikTok's leadership in the US is adamant that

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Speaker 2: there is a wall between the company and the Chinese

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Speaker 2: government that they don't share any data. But the fact

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Speaker 2: is this is an autocratic regime and companies would have

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Speaker 2: to comply if the government said it wanted certain information

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Speaker 2: or to use the platform in a certain way. So

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Speaker 2: no lawmakers or government officials have provided broad evidence of this.

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Speaker 2: But last year there were intelligence briefings on the Hill

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Speaker 2: that led to Congress. You know this incredibly, like divided

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Speaker 2: Congress came together in a flash to pass this law

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Speaker 2: banning TikTok. So whatever material they got in those briefings

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Speaker 2: was compelling enough to prompt them to act.

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Speaker 1: So that law passed in April. Why wasn't TikTok just

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Speaker 1: immediately sold? Were there any American companies who are jumping

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Speaker 1: at the chance to own TikTok?

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Speaker 2: I mean, there was a deal proposed, again going back

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Speaker 2: to the first Trump administration. He was working with Microsoft

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Speaker 2: and with Oracle, and the idea was that Oracle would

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Speaker 2: host the platform, and that deal fell apart. It never

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Speaker 2: came to fruition. There are several American is this men

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Speaker 2: who have just in the past few days come forward

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Speaker 2: and saying they want to buy TikTok Frank McCourt and

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Speaker 2: Kevin O'Leary. Kevin O'Leary was just reportedly in mar Lago

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Speaker 2: talking about this transaction.

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Speaker 1: Frank McCourt is a real estate mogul and former owner

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Speaker 1: of the Los Angeles Dodgers, and Kevin O'Leary is an

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Speaker 1: investor on Shark Tank.

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Speaker 2: The other important distinction in this latest deal that Kevin

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Speaker 2: O'Leary and McCord are talking about apparently, again according to reports,

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Speaker 2: they're not interested in buying the algorithm. Well, the algorithm

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Speaker 2: is really the crown jewel of the platform, and that's

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Speaker 2: also where all the data is stored and processed. So

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Speaker 2: raises the question of would a sale actually achieve the

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Speaker 2: goals of this law if the algorithm isn't included. But

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Speaker 2: all of this really still begs the question of whether

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Speaker 2: Byte Dance would approve a sale, and we haven't seen

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Speaker 2: an indication that they would be open to this.

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Speaker 1: So Bite Dance is resistant to a sale. TikTok filed

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Speaker 1: this lawsuit and now the case is up at the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court. What are the key arguments for and against

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Speaker 1: this TikTok ban.

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Speaker 2: TikTok is arguing that this law is unconstitutional and that

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Speaker 2: it violates the free speech rights both of the company

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Speaker 2: and of the users on the platform. And so as

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Speaker 2: the arguments unfolded, there were a lot of questions about

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Speaker 2: whose speech is being violated here and who has the

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Speaker 2: right to free speech in the US. So, for example,

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Speaker 2: some of the justices observed that foreign entities don't have

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Speaker 2: the same free speech protections as US citizens. So while

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Speaker 2: TikTok is a US company, it is owned by a

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Speaker 2: Chinese company. So there was a lot of discussion around that,

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Speaker 2: What about the speech rights of the one hundred and

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Speaker 2: seventy million users of the platform? Are they protected in

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Speaker 2: this case? But then, you know, the Solicitor General, arguing

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Speaker 2: for the US Justice Department, pointed out that this really

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Speaker 2: isn't about the speech rights of the users of the platform.

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Speaker 2: This is about a ban against this you know, streaming

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Speaker 2: platform and the national security interest that it raises. So

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Speaker 2: they're arguing kind of across each other.

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Speaker 1: What was the upshot of these oral arguments.

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Speaker 2: So they didn't issue a decision, but they could rule

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Speaker 2: soon as this week. Our expectation is that they will

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Speaker 2: probably uphold the band judging from you know, the commentary

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Speaker 2: that that we heard. But again, nothing is nothing is sure,

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Speaker 2: nothing is set yet.

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Speaker 1: Has ByteDance indicated any openness to selling off TikTok to

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Speaker 1: avoid losing its American user base.

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Speaker 2: Byte Dance has absolutely said it's not going to sell TikTok.

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Speaker 2: It has no desire and it doesn't have any compunction

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Speaker 2: to sell TikTok. So, you know, this could lead to

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Speaker 2: a real flare up in US China relations in addition

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Speaker 2: to to the business situation.

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Speaker 1: After the break, we look at how a TikTok band

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Speaker 1: could actually play out and how Trump's return to office

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Speaker 1: could change everything. The Supreme Court's decision on the lawsuit

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Speaker 1: challenging Congress's TikTok ban is expected to come down this week.

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg's legal editor Sarah Forden, has been following the court

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Speaker 1: case closely for months and looking into the possible outcomes

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Speaker 1: if a ban is upheld by the Supreme Court, what

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Speaker 1: happens next.

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Speaker 2: One of the requests was to try to postpone this

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Speaker 2: law going into effect, to delay it until Trump gets

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Speaker 2: into office, because now he has flip flopped and said

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Speaker 2: he has warm feelings about TikTok, and he's the great negotiator,

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Speaker 2: and you know he should be able to get into

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Speaker 2: office and help them negotiate a deal. So one possibility

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Speaker 2: that the Supreme Court has is to delay the ban

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Speaker 2: until he gets into office, and then you sort of

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Speaker 2: what happens next. I mean, technically, the Justice Department is

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Speaker 2: responsible for enforcing the ban, but if Trump is in

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Speaker 2: office and he could tell his Attorney general not to

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Speaker 2: enforce it, for example, and there are other scenarios that

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Speaker 2: could play out, he could go back to Congress and

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Speaker 2: ask them to revise the law. So it's really still

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Speaker 2: a very fluid situation with not a clear solution or

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Speaker 2: resolution in sight.

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Speaker 1: Yet how likely are those scenarios? What has Trump said

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Speaker 1: about his stance on the ban and how do you

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Speaker 1: explain his position towards keeping TikTok running in the US?

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Speaker 2: Well, so, the TikTok community was really critical in his

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Speaker 2: winning the election, so he's very mindful, you know that

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Speaker 2: he owes them a favor, and so he's come back

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Speaker 2: and said that he doesn't think it should be banned,

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Speaker 2: that it should be sold to a US company, and

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Speaker 2: that he's in a great position to make that happen.

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Speaker 1: So let's say bye Dance. It doesn't sell, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: find an American buyer, it doesn't want to find an

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Speaker 1: American buyer. Trump doesn't weigh in in time, and the

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Speaker 1: ban is upheld. What actually happens on January nineteenth? How

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Speaker 1: do you actually get TikTok off American phones?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so this came up in the Supreme Court arguments

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Speaker 2: and the lawyer for TikTok was arguing that, you know,

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Speaker 2: basically the whole platform would go dark, you know, on

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Speaker 2: January twentieth. That actually isn't the case as far as

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Speaker 2: we can see, because what would happen is that the

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Speaker 2: app stores, so Google an Apple would be required to

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Speaker 2: remove the app from the app store, so you can't

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Speaker 2: sign up anymore. But the people who already have TikTok

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Speaker 2: on their phones could keep using it. But then the

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Speaker 2: idea is that they wouldn't be able to get updates,

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Speaker 2: you know, TikTok wouldn't be able to continue, you know,

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Speaker 2: offering the service, and so gradually those apps on those

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Speaker 2: phones would become dysfunctional.

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Speaker 1: How are competitor apps like metas Real performing? Are we

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Speaker 1: seeing TikTokers preemptively head to other platforms. These other platforms

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Speaker 1: kind of courting these TikTokers. Where does that stand?

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Speaker 2: Well, surely it's a very competitive atmosphere, and the people

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Speaker 2: who oppose a TikTok band also say that it would actually,

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Speaker 2: you know, just basically be sort of giving that, you know,

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Speaker 2: swath of the market to meta to the others. At

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Speaker 2: the same time, the TikTok creators themselves are starting to

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Speaker 2: think about what possible workarounds do they have. Could they

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Speaker 2: use VPNs to access the platform to make it look

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Speaker 2: like they're not in the United States. So the content

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Speaker 2: creators are on the one hand trying to protect their

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Speaker 2: assets on the platform, but at the same time trying

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Speaker 2: to get ready to jump if they have to.

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Speaker 1: Right now, the app is full of users trying to

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Speaker 1: game out their next moves.

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Speaker 2: I am in a full state of denial that this

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Speaker 2: is the last Sunday I'll be able to doom scroll TikTok.

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Speaker 2: What are we doing? Where we're going? Just try scrolling

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Speaker 2: for Instagram.

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Speaker 1: I didn't laugh one time. And some TikTok creators are

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Speaker 1: actually involved in this case, right.

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Speaker 2: So we had three parties arguing we had TikTok, we

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Speaker 2: had lawyers for the content creators themselves who are arguing

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Speaker 2: that this is really going to hurt their livelihood and

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Speaker 2: their free expression. So they're being very vocal that they

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Speaker 2: want to have a say here and they're really standing

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Speaker 2: up for their right to continue to use this platform.

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Speaker 1: At the end of the day, what would this mean

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Speaker 1: for the TikTok economy? All of these influencers we've talked

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Speaker 1: about and small business owners who sell goods and services

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Speaker 1: through TikTok brands who partner with influencers to get their

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Speaker 1: products out there. Could this cause like a huge ripple

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Speaker 1: effect on the economy.

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Speaker 2: Well, clearly there's a big chunk of the economy tied

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Speaker 2: up in here, and that's one of the reasons why

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Speaker 2: this case has gone as far as it has. At

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Speaker 2: the same time, though, I mean, the tech market is

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Speaker 2: highly disruptive and use to disruptions, and people can jump

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Speaker 2: quick and new platforms can come into effects. So I think, yes,

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Speaker 2: a big chunk of business would go away, and that's

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Speaker 2: why the influencers are so concerned. But at the same time,

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Speaker 2: there are other opportunities out there.

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Speaker 1: We'll be following this story as it unfolds this week

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Speaker 1: for more reporting and updates on TikTok. Go to Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: dot com. This is the Big Take from Bloomberg News.

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Speaker 1: I'm Sarah Holder. This episode was produced by Julia Press.

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Speaker 1: It was edited by Michael Sheppard and our senior producer

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Speaker 1: Naomi Shaven. It was mixed and sound designed by Alex Huguiera.

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Speaker 1: It was fact checked by Adrianna Tapia. Our senior editor

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