Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from how Stuff Works
Speaker 1: dot com. Yankee Doodle, Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles Um Spirit of seventies
Speaker 1: six Bryant and Jerry Bicentennial Baby Roland. And I'm Josh.
Speaker 1: Like I said, Jerry wishes she was a bicentennial baby. Yes,
Speaker 1: she does, both of y'all. Do I know, man, i'd
Speaker 1: be five years younger. That's exactly where I am, squarely
Speaker 1: in the bi centennial baby year. Oh that's right. I
Speaker 1: demand people refer to me as such when I'm out
Speaker 1: in public. Dr bi Centennial Baby Clark. Ye. So how
Speaker 1: are you feeling pretty good? Good man? We should probably
Speaker 1: say thank you to all the people who came out
Speaker 1: for our West Coast jaunt. Yeah, that's a good idea,
Speaker 1: Chuck last week, so big thanks to Seattle, Portland in
Speaker 1: San Francisco for Stuff you Should Know shows, and then
Speaker 1: everyone who came out for movie Crushing Into the World Live. Yes,
Speaker 1: thank you to everybody for all those jams we had.
Speaker 1: We had like really good crowds and good responses everywhere
Speaker 1: we went. How did you think go? I was drunk
Speaker 1: in Wine Country? It went really well. I was tense
Speaker 1: and on stage and Cafe do Nord. Actually it went
Speaker 1: well when I went out, so it's like it includes
Speaker 1: like a presentation, right, a visual audio visual thing. And
Speaker 1: I could not get it to start working for a
Speaker 1: good fifteen seconds, which which in my mind was a
Speaker 1: good fifteen minutes, and I was like, if you've all
Speaker 1: ever wanted to see someone die of fright on stage?
Speaker 1: But I got it working and it went well from there.
Speaker 1: But the thing that got me the most was they
Speaker 1: sat around for thirty more minutes after the show asking questions,
Speaker 1: so they were really into it and it meant a
Speaker 1: lot to me. Thank you, and um we I haven't
Speaker 1: been to Brooklyn yet, but this will come out after
Speaker 1: the Brooklyn show, and I'm just going to know, actually
Speaker 1: will come out probably the day of the Brooklyn show.
Speaker 1: I'll hold my thanks for then we'll see how it
Speaker 1: goes Brooklyn. Great, congratulations. How did yours go with Busy Phillips?
Speaker 1: It was good. It was fun. She's super nice and uh,
Speaker 1: I only made a couple of really terrible jokes and
Speaker 1: I will cut those out. Oh you gotta leave them in.
Speaker 1: Were they that bad? Now? Yeah, they were pretty bad. Okay,
Speaker 1: like dad jokes are like super offensive jokes. So one
Speaker 1: which evidently Emily said I said the wrong word, which
Speaker 1: explains why it made no sense because she even asked
Speaker 1: me a straight She was like, what was up with
Speaker 1: that one joke? It's like what? And I told her
Speaker 1: and she was like, no, no, no, that's not what
Speaker 1: you said. I was like, oh, I don't, won't say
Speaker 1: it here, but it it explained a lot. You gotta
Speaker 1: tell me later. Okay, yeah, I'll totally tell you. Okay, cool,
Speaker 1: But what about the other one? Was it a dad joke? Uh? No,
Speaker 1: just dumb Okay, I gotta keep the image up. I
Speaker 1: know it's mean, man, sure, but otherwise it'll be although
Speaker 1: I don't I got the file today and like the
Speaker 1: last twenty minutes of it aren't there. So I emailed
Speaker 1: them and they're like, please tell me this is not all.
Speaker 1: So it may be a truncated version. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know. We'll see the lost episode is what
Speaker 1: they call. Um. Okay, well, good, good, congratulations. I'm glad.
Speaker 1: Aside from the file snaffood and those two bad jokes,
Speaker 1: otherwise it was great. Uh and we're gonna go back
Speaker 1: out on the road sometimes soon. We decided this year, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're figuring it out. Hopefully another like nine is shows
Speaker 1: maybe the course of this year. Sure, places we've never been,
Speaker 1: places we have been. Who knows, we're gonna mix it up. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so keep an ear out for that. We've learned. Now
Speaker 1: we're just straight up going to put that in the
Speaker 1: beginnings of episodes. No messing around anymore, no messing around. Okay,
Speaker 1: So all of that, of course seguys quite nicely into
Speaker 1: the story of Betsy Ross and the American flags origin
Speaker 1: broad I don't know that's necessarily true. I don't think
Speaker 1: that's the official historical stance, but I think a better
Speaker 1: way to say it. Chuck is questioned, and hey, just
Speaker 1: a great story for history. So who cares if it's true? Yeah,
Speaker 1: Layoff puts no. No. The person who's like, you know,
Speaker 1: said fraud. I guess. Uh. So let's well, I mean,
Speaker 1: let's get into this because, uh, the first thing that
Speaker 1: you will probably say, if you're a um Betsy Ross believer,
Speaker 1: she was a real person, by the way, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think the first thing a lot of our listeners around
Speaker 1: the world will say was is who is Betsy Ross? Sure,
Speaker 1: well she is credited, which is where I was going
Speaker 1: with the Uh the sort of creation, design and sewing
Speaker 1: of the first flag thanks to a lot of things,
Speaker 1: but certainly held up by a very famous painting called
Speaker 1: the Birth of Our Nation's Flag by Charles is Weisberger.
Speaker 1: Very famous painting. Yeah, but it's one of those paintings.
Speaker 1: It's like super old timing where there's a lot of
Speaker 1: written explanation painted into the painting. M hm. I just
Speaker 1: find that's just there's nothing more old timey than that. Uh. Well, sure,
Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting this, he says, something along the line
Speaker 1: an award. Well, I don't have anything prepared, he said, Um,
Speaker 1: this is uh. The national standard was made by Betsy
Speaker 1: Ross in seventeen seventy six at two three Niner Art Street, Philadelphia,
Speaker 1: in the room represented in this picture. That's a lot
Speaker 1: of words, but it goes on still. The committee Robert
Speaker 1: Morris and Honorable George Ross, accompanied by General George Washington,
Speaker 1: called upon this celebrated woman, and together with her suggestions,
Speaker 1: produced our beautiful emblem of Liberty. So what do you
Speaker 1: guys do in this weekend? I was thinking about maybe
Speaker 1: going roller skating, I know, it hasn't been invented yet
Speaker 1: because it's only eighteen seventies something, and he actually wrote
Speaker 1: out eighteen seventies something, and then he said, how about
Speaker 1: this new country pretty neat? Huh, right, And that just
Speaker 1: kind of trails off from there. It ends there. It's
Speaker 1: a lot. It's a really wordy painting. Frankly, it is
Speaker 1: very wordy, but that that helps sort of cement the
Speaker 1: idea that Betsy Ross was in fact the designer and
Speaker 1: creator and seamstress. I guess for the first flag. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm going to take issue on behalf of some of
Speaker 1: our more historically astute listeners and say, she I don't
Speaker 1: think she's credited with designing the flag. I think that's
Speaker 1: the one thing that everybody agrees on, is that she
Speaker 1: is not given credit for designing it. She's she's given
Speaker 1: credit for create, like physically creating the first flag and
Speaker 1: then helping with some troubleshooting in the early design. Oh,
Speaker 1: you should go to an elementary school. Why are they
Speaker 1: teaching otherwise? Sure? Is that right? Yeah, it's all created
Speaker 1: by Betsy Ross. Fraud. It's not true. What wait, which
Speaker 1: part is not to the thing? You said? Her? The thing?
Speaker 1: I just said neither one. Okay, but we should talk
Speaker 1: about the real Betsy Ross because she was a real lady. Um,
Speaker 1: she's not an apparition or a visage. Uh. She was
Speaker 1: born in seventeen fifty two on New Year's Day. She's
Speaker 1: a New Year's Day baby supposedly, Um, I think that's documented. Yeah. Probably.
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Griscombe was her name. Born to Samuel and Rebecca
Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania, and her great grand pappy Andrew Griscombe, was
Speaker 1: a very notable Philadelphian. He was one of the first
Speaker 1: settlers in a carpenter in like built apparently a lot
Speaker 1: of Philadelphia's first buildings. Yeah, which is I mean that's
Speaker 1: that's pretty prominent for um that that time, because I mean,
Speaker 1: this is when the whole place is being settled, and
Speaker 1: it's being settled by Quakers. So um, like Pennsylvania is
Speaker 1: a Quaker settlement. And that's how Elizabeth Griscomb a k a.
Speaker 1: Betsy Ross, Which makes you think like she she robbed
Speaker 1: banks later in life and went on the lamb and
Speaker 1: changed her name. Not true, you'll see it's it'll all
Speaker 1: become a parent in a second. But she was raised
Speaker 1: as a strict Quaker in Pennsylvania, right, one of nine
Speaker 1: children who grew to adulthood, but her parents had seventeen kids. Dude,
Speaker 1: that is so many kids. Man. Well, the Quakers take
Speaker 1: like keeping their faith going by multiplying. Seriously. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's like how a lot of religious groups are. Um,
Speaker 1: they do it two fold. They reproduce a lot, and
Speaker 1: they also try to make sure that they're they're members
Speaker 1: who are born into their their groups marry other members
Speaker 1: born in the group so that they will raise more
Speaker 1: uh Quakers or what have you, and whatever the religious
Speaker 1: group is. And actually Betsy ran a foul this later on,
Speaker 1: as we'll see. She was a bit of a rebel. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And also imagine Samuel as a Quaker was like, you know,
Speaker 1: it's very fun procreation, and his wife was like, it's
Speaker 1: not as fun for me. He's such a great like
Speaker 1: eighteenth century Quaker impression maybe the best I've ever heard.
Speaker 1: This is the one thing we're allowed to do that's good. Well.
Speaker 1: They so the Quakers actually had a really really liberal society,
Speaker 1: Like there was a lot of equality, there was a
Speaker 1: lot of um. It was a very They were a
Speaker 1: very peaceful group and still are their pacifists through and
Speaker 1: through um. But they also were really strict morally, like
Speaker 1: if you were in a play, you could be fine
Speaker 1: twenty shillings and spend ten days ten days in jail
Speaker 1: for being in a play because it was just kind
Speaker 1: of frivolous and not very religious. But on the other hand, um,
Speaker 1: they all drank like fish. Um, you just weren't allowed
Speaker 1: to sell it to like the Native Americans, because they
Speaker 1: equated that with corrupting them. Now of some Quakers, Oh yeah, sure, nice.
Speaker 1: Do you I think we used to work with one,
Speaker 1: didn't we? Yes, yes, so I think we know the
Speaker 1: same Quakers probably, But now I'm wondering. First of all,
Speaker 1: I was about to shout out the name. Then I
Speaker 1: was like should I not? Then I was like, why wouldn't,
Speaker 1: I said, the whole thing happened, Why would I Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: And then you thought fraud. Well, some people like to
Speaker 1: keep their stuff personal, so I'm just I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: do that. Under the table Quaker is what that that is.
Speaker 1: But they're they're also called the Society of Friends, I
Speaker 1: think is the greatest name for any religious group of
Speaker 1: all time, right founded by six year olds. Society Society
Speaker 1: of Best Winds Um all right, so they're in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1: The one thing that we do know is that her
Speaker 1: nickname was Betsy h And when she was about fifteen
Speaker 1: she did learn to sew very well. She was an
Speaker 1: apprentice to an upholster named John Webster, and this is
Speaker 1: where she learned her craft. Right and um, when you
Speaker 1: think of like you always hear of Betsy Ross being
Speaker 1: a seamstress, right, she was not a seamstress. She was,
Speaker 1: like you just said, an upholsterer, which involved a lot
Speaker 1: more than say dressmaking. As a matter of fact, I'm
Speaker 1: sure she did make clothes here there she knew how to,
Speaker 1: but mostly her stuff was on like sewing curtains and
Speaker 1: tablecloths and rugs and like other textiles, um, rather than
Speaker 1: like actual clothing. So she was in upholsterer three and through.
Speaker 1: So it seems stress specifically clothing. That's the impression I have. Interesting.
Speaker 1: I feel like such a fraud because I didn't look
Speaker 1: up the difference between the two. But that's that's my
Speaker 1: take on it. I'm gonna find out also, chook umbrellas,
Speaker 1: Venetian blinds and flags, that's something in a pholsterer would
Speaker 1: have made back in the eighteenth century. Apparently a seamstress
Speaker 1: is any woman who sews well. Then I wonder if
Speaker 1: aupholsterer is a specialty of a seamstress then yeah, probably
Speaker 1: so okay. And what is a man whoso is called
Speaker 1: a seamster? Maybe never never thought about that. And if
Speaker 1: he's in the union, he's a seamster teamster. Oh, Dad,
Speaker 1: I know it's gotten really bad. Maybe we'll have Jerry
Speaker 1: cut that out to keep my public inventory. Uh So,
Speaker 1: while she was doing this work, she met a man
Speaker 1: named John Ross, not the last name. And he was
Speaker 1: also an apprentice, and he was good at it, and
Speaker 1: he opened his own shop, and he was sort of
Speaker 1: I mean, he came he came from a well connected family. Uh.
Speaker 1: And that his actual uncle, George you might have recognized
Speaker 1: from that painting, George Ross Jr. He was He signed
Speaker 1: the Declaration of Independence, right, so that's legit. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: he was a he was big time. He was um
Speaker 1: I think a representative for UM for Pennsylvania and the legislature,
Speaker 1: either Pennsylvania or New Jersey, one of the two. He was.
Speaker 1: He was a big wig. If he's hanging out with
Speaker 1: George Washington and Betsy Ross's upholstery shop. Then he was
Speaker 1: a big wig, that's right, a big powdered wig by
Speaker 1: the way. So so this her marriage to John Ross.
Speaker 1: It didn't last very long, um, although it was um
Speaker 1: kind of marked by that like younger younger age radicalism
Speaker 1: where she So John Ross was an Anglican, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: he wasn't a Quaker, which was bad, right, So they
Speaker 1: fell in love. He was in a pholster as well,
Speaker 1: and um, John Ross and Bets Betsy later Betsy Ross.
Speaker 1: When they met and fell in love, they had to
Speaker 1: elope to New Jersey, which everybody does, the Elope to
Speaker 1: New Jersey, um, because her parents were like, you cannot
Speaker 1: do that, and she said, well I'm doing it, and
Speaker 1: they said, well then you're out. And she went off
Speaker 1: and got married and she was, um, ex excommunicated is
Speaker 1: not the way I think that's specifically Catholic. But she
Speaker 1: was kicked out of the Quakers and her parents, her
Speaker 1: family disowned her. So she definitely loved the guy went
Speaker 1: off and followed her heart and they made sweet upholstery
Speaker 1: together because he opened his own shop. Actually, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: really sad though. I mean, it's great that they found
Speaker 1: each other, but it's anytime someone's like expelled and disowned
Speaker 1: by their family, it's just sort of of her religions
Speaker 1: a sad thing, Yeah it is. Or yeah, for any
Speaker 1: reason really, you know, like bringing shame or dishonner. It's
Speaker 1: like it's your family that's supposed to They're supposed to
Speaker 1: be there for you no matter what, but it doesn't
Speaker 1: always work out that way. Which which was which Chuck
Speaker 1: means that family is what you make of it. I
Speaker 1: thought family, what was it? Never trust family, Never trust family,
Speaker 1: but specifically blood family. Okay. Um, So the Revolutionary War
Speaker 1: comes along and in Philadelphia, um, people were you know,
Speaker 1: kind of getting together forming militias in order to you know,
Speaker 1: defend the city in case in case things went down,
Speaker 1: And no one knows for sure what was going on
Speaker 1: with John and Betsy, but we do know that he died.
Speaker 1: We just don't know quite how. Yeah. They think maybe
Speaker 1: it was either an accident um or a death from
Speaker 1: being in the militia, or there's there's supposedly, uh family
Speaker 1: rumor that he may have suffered from mental illness and
Speaker 1: may have died as a result of something some complication
Speaker 1: from that. Yeah. It's really sad though, because that was
Speaker 1: obviously her true love enough to to leave her family
Speaker 1: in religion. And she was widowed in seventeen seventy six,
Speaker 1: just what three years later after they got married. Yep,
Speaker 1: so so it was just three years after, right, Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: So when she was a widow that that radicalism I
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier started to kick in. She um went back
Speaker 1: to Quakers. Um, if she ever left, I don't. I've
Speaker 1: never seen that she began attending like Anglican mass or anything.
Speaker 1: But she went back to the Quakers. But she joined
Speaker 1: a group, a specific group of Quakers called the Free
Speaker 1: Quakers or Fighting Quakers, who were like, yeah, we're Quakers,
Speaker 1: but we also are not crazy into pacifism because well, yeah,
Speaker 1: we will shoved me back, shoved me and see what happens. Um,
Speaker 1: and uh that was what they wore on their on
Speaker 1: their shirts. But um oh man. But um, the reason
Speaker 1: that they were anti pacifists because they wanted to support
Speaker 1: independence and then there was going to be a fight,
Speaker 1: a struggle for independence, and you couldn't really side with
Speaker 1: one side and and not and be a pacifist. Basically. Yeah,
Speaker 1: remember our pacifism episode. That was a good one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was a good one, so she uh was once
Speaker 1: again unlucky in love. She got married again to a
Speaker 1: man named Joseph ashburn He died in prison and in Britain,
Speaker 1: and then she finally got married a third time to
Speaker 1: a man named John Claypool will and she was married
Speaker 1: to him until he died. But this was like twenty
Speaker 1: years this time. You want you want to know how
Speaker 1: She and John Claypool met at her second husband's funeral
Speaker 1: almost okay, he showed up bar afterwards. John Claypool even
Speaker 1: even more even sooner than that. John Claypool was imprisoned
Speaker 1: with Joseph Ashburne over in Great Britain, and after he
Speaker 1: got out, he made his way over to America. And
Speaker 1: he's the one who brought Betsy Ross the news that
Speaker 1: her husband had died. And then he, I guess he
Speaker 1: was like, so you're doing all right? Can I Can
Speaker 1: I be of any assistance for you? And rather than
Speaker 1: just being there for her, he took away before her
Speaker 1: and he was just there. I wonder if he was like,
Speaker 1: by the way, your husband's last words were totally you
Speaker 1: should go marry my wife. That's the that's what they
Speaker 1: used to do back in the day. So she worked
Speaker 1: as an upholster until she died at the age of
Speaker 1: four and eighteen thirty six. She had five little girls,
Speaker 1: which is kind of great. And aside from that, that's
Speaker 1: kind of what we know about Betsy Ross. Um, as
Speaker 1: far as the facts go, Yeah, that's about where they
Speaker 1: run out. And you might say, listener, well guys, you
Speaker 1: left out the most important one, the most important fact,
Speaker 1: the story of her sewing the American flag. Well, well,
Speaker 1: we're going to stick by what we just said and
Speaker 1: say that we just ran out of facts, which means
Speaker 1: it's pretty good time for a message break, don't you think.
Speaker 1: Charles agreed, We'll be right back. Okay, So it's about
Speaker 1: here that we should kind of go over the Betsy
Speaker 1: Ross legend because what we just described as in eighteen
Speaker 1: early nineteenth century American woman who was a Quaker and
Speaker 1: an upholsterer, and her love life and her children, her offspring. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's it, that's all we've got. Um. So the flag story,
Speaker 1: for those of you who aren't familiar with this, is
Speaker 1: that when Betsy Ross was hanging around her upholstery shop
Speaker 1: one day in Philadelphia and I believe seventeen seventy six,
Speaker 1: I think June seventeen seventy six when they say it happened.
Speaker 1: Three men came in that trio, including George Washington, George Ross,
Speaker 1: who was um remember her first husband's uncle, and then
Speaker 1: a man named Robert Morris, who was a wealthy man
Speaker 1: known as the financier of the Revolution and considered one
Speaker 1: of the founders of the US financials system. These three
Speaker 1: come in, very very important men, and as legend goes,
Speaker 1: Betsy Ross recognized George Washington immediately and they said, Ms Ross,
Speaker 1: we need your help. We we have to. We're part
Speaker 1: of the Continental Congress's Flag Committee and we've been tasked
Speaker 1: with coming up with the flag. Will you help us
Speaker 1: create this flag? And she basically said, let me see
Speaker 1: what you got. Yeah, she said, well, first of all,
Speaker 1: my husband passed away six months ago, so why are
Speaker 1: you bothering me of all people, right, And Uncle George
Speaker 1: was like, I know, but you're still family. You still
Speaker 1: got Ross on your name, and this will make for
Speaker 1: a good story later, right. So she looks at the
Speaker 1: design and she said, this is not bad, she said,
Speaker 1: but you may want to change the proportions a bit.
Speaker 1: And her real and and this is kind of the
Speaker 1: one thing that I think most historians do agree on
Speaker 1: is that her one big change design wise was changing
Speaker 1: the star from a six pointer to a five pointer.
Speaker 1: Right if you if you agree that that Betsy Ross
Speaker 1: did have a hand in making the original flag, then yeah,
Speaker 1: you would probably say that's probably correct. And apparently just
Speaker 1: because it was easier on her to cut. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think though that they were saying, like, five pointed stars
Speaker 1: would be harder than a six point star, and she
Speaker 1: said no, no, and like whipped out her scissors and
Speaker 1: cut up some either cloth or paper and showed them
Speaker 1: how easy it wasn't They're like, oh, that's beautiful. And
Speaker 1: George Westington was like, are we still talking about this?
Speaker 1: Can we go? He's like, why am I in the
Speaker 1: bulstry shop? Why am I in the story? It doesn't
Speaker 1: even make sense that I would be here? Oh save that?
Speaker 1: So um, they said, sure, that's fine. Easier to cut.
Speaker 1: You've proved it, even though George Ross was over there
Speaker 1: trying to cut the six and prove her wrong. The
Speaker 1: sun went down, came back up, he was missing a fingertip,
Speaker 1: and so they said that that that's fine, let's just
Speaker 1: do it, and uh, they draw up the new sketch. Uh.
Speaker 1: They incorporate her her new star, and they said, get
Speaker 1: to it, kind lady, and she did, and it's a
Speaker 1: It was a big flag. It wasn't like this was
Speaker 1: when they were gonna fly, you know, out in public,
Speaker 1: so it wasn't like a little tester flag. So it
Speaker 1: took a while and what it would It took a
Speaker 1: few days maybe, and she finally says, here's what I've
Speaker 1: got and they say, this is great. Let's see how
Speaker 1: it looks on a on the mast of a ship.
Speaker 1: They hoisted it up a ship and they said, all right,
Speaker 1: I think we're good to go here everyone. Basically, that's it.
Speaker 1: You know, it's just occurred to me, Chuck, is how
Speaker 1: closely our History episodes resemble Drunk History episode except for
Speaker 1: sober right ish um? But the uh so the flag
Speaker 1: is it's been proven on this mass of the ship.
Speaker 1: It looks beautiful. And they go back to Betsy Ross
Speaker 1: and they say, Betsy, we're gonna need a lot more
Speaker 1: of these. And the implication is commerce takes over and
Speaker 1: Betsy becomes wealthy and secures her her her place as
Speaker 1: one of the the important figures of early American history.
Speaker 1: That's right. Uh. Here's the thing though, is there is
Speaker 1: no proof or evidence that this happened. This all comes
Speaker 1: from a story that her grandson, William can be told
Speaker 1: in eighteen seventies. So she's been passed away for uh
Speaker 1: what thirty years more, almost close to forty, Yeah, between
Speaker 1: thirty and forty. So she but but it wasn't like
Speaker 1: she died a hundred and fifty years before when her
Speaker 1: grandson wrote it down like he had known her in
Speaker 1: his lifetime. Yeah, and he said that his aunt had
Speaker 1: told him this ten years before and said, listen, she
Speaker 1: told me this story. He you know, recounted it, probably
Speaker 1: in a much nicer way than we just did. And uh,
Speaker 1: he told this in a speech at the Pennsylvania Historical Society.
Speaker 1: And this was, you know, eighteen seventy eighteen seventy six
Speaker 1: is right around the corner, and everyone's getting all uh
Speaker 1: all hot and bothered by the upcoming celebration. And I
Speaker 1: think everyone just sort of well, we'll get to the
Speaker 1: reasons why. But everyone definitely bought into this like this
Speaker 1: is great, let's run with it, right, And so, um,
Speaker 1: here's about where historians say, okay, all right, so William
Speaker 1: can be Um produced this story in a speech to
Speaker 1: the Historical Society. It took place a hundred years after
Speaker 1: the thing happened, almost forty years after Betsy Ross died.
Speaker 1: It's family lore, and apparently they got other people from
Speaker 1: the family to come testify, like, yes, they've heard this
Speaker 1: story multiple times in very similar iterations. It's like the
Speaker 1: story of how our ancestor or grandmother Ann or whatever
Speaker 1: she was to them, um sowed the first American flag.
Speaker 1: And they say, Okay, we don't think that the Ross
Speaker 1: and Claypool families are liars by any stretch. They're not like,
Speaker 1: just didn't make it up, you know, right. That's that's
Speaker 1: kind of the the the uh what's it called when
Speaker 1: you give somebody the benefit of the down, just benefit
Speaker 1: of the down. That's the benefit of the doubt that
Speaker 1: historians tend to give the family so that they're they're
Speaker 1: not just like liars who made this up? Um, But
Speaker 1: but it is family laren So, historians kind of approach
Speaker 1: it with a little bit of a grain of salt.
Speaker 1: The thing is, there's no other family in the United
Speaker 1: States who's saying, actually, it's it was our grandmother who
Speaker 1: made the first American flag, or my grandfather was at
Speaker 1: that meeting and he was the one who came up
Speaker 1: with the stars. There's nothing like that. There's no other
Speaker 1: competing stories to this one, to this family story. The
Speaker 1: reason why historians take it with a grain of salts
Speaker 1: because again, like you said, there's just no documentary evidence
Speaker 1: whatsoever to show that it ever did take place. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and there's like there are a few flags here, red
Speaker 1: flags that is about out why this may not be true.
Speaker 1: What I think is that it is a version of
Speaker 1: the truth, and then history tells wraps a good story
Speaker 1: around it. Um. There was no record of a flag
Speaker 1: committee being formed. Um, the fact that George Washington was
Speaker 1: there is just doubtful in and of itself. As a
Speaker 1: huge superstar Army general and American hero, that he would
Speaker 1: be like, we're kind of kidding around and when he's like,
Speaker 1: why am I here? But why would he have been there?
Speaker 1: Not only that this is um, this was recounted by
Speaker 1: William Canby as a Congressional committee for the flag and
Speaker 1: there's two problems with that one. George Washington wasn't a
Speaker 1: member of Congress, so again, why would they send him
Speaker 1: along with this committee? And then Secondly, Um, Congress never
Speaker 1: in any way, shape or form on paper at least
Speaker 1: took up a flag the details of the flag until
Speaker 1: seventies seven, a full year after this story supposedly took place.
Speaker 1: That's right. Uh, there are a few things working in
Speaker 1: her favor here. Um. It is verified that she was
Speaker 1: paid a pretty good sum of money um that same
Speaker 1: year by the Pennsylvania State Navy Board. Okay, I saw
Speaker 1: that she did make flags for the Pennsylvania Navy. Well,
Speaker 1: this is where it gets all murky because there's another man,
Speaker 1: which we'll get into. Uh. Let's let's put a pin
Speaker 1: in that though of that guy for now. Okay, alright,
Speaker 1: because we were getting pretty fast and furious eight there. Uh.
Speaker 1: And there's also a painting supposedly dating to eighteen fifty one,
Speaker 1: a different painting that shows her sewing an American flag. Um.
Speaker 1: But I don't think they have like officially authenticated that
Speaker 1: it's from eighteen fifty one. But here's what I don't understand.
Speaker 1: If there was a painting in eighteen fifty one, I mean,
Speaker 1: supposedly none of this happened until eighteen what seventy the
Speaker 1: can be story? Yeah, like when the big meeting took place. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean that's when that's when William can be told
Speaker 1: that family story. But the fact that there's a painting
Speaker 1: that predates his speech by nineteen years showing the same
Speaker 1: thing that lends support to his story, for sure, But
Speaker 1: it's still that's an eighteen fifty one painting depicting something
Speaker 1: that happened seventy five years prior, right if uh oh, yeah, sorry,
Speaker 1: my math was I forgot a hundred years. You forgot
Speaker 1: to carry the one that did. But again, that that
Speaker 1: painting is not I don't think fully authenticated. So who
Speaker 1: knows if that's true or not. One of those dirty
Speaker 1: lying Ross Claypool family members did it in like two twelve.
Speaker 1: But he said less Claypool for a minute, and I
Speaker 1: was about to run out of the room. Yeah, like
Speaker 1: Less Claypool. Huh. I'm not a primus guy. Um so
Speaker 1: I wouldn't call myself a primus guy either, But I
Speaker 1: like some of their songs. Yeah. Um so, Chuck, you
Speaker 1: want to take another message, break and then come back
Speaker 1: and get to it. Get to the truth about the flag,
Speaker 1: all right, Charles, So you said that there was another
Speaker 1: guy who kind of muddles the issue a little bit,
Speaker 1: and he does, but not fully because, um, if little
Speaker 1: school kids are being taught that Betsy Ross did design
Speaker 1: the flag, that is an issue because this guy named
Speaker 1: Francis Hopkinson is given credit more than anybody else for
Speaker 1: having a hand in designing the first American flag, if
Speaker 1: not being the designer of the American flag. This this
Speaker 1: sketch that this trio of the Congressional Committee brought in allegedly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so the story, the story I heard around the campfire
Speaker 1: of old Hopkinson was that he he kind of was,
Speaker 1: in fact the designer. He designed quite a few things,
Speaker 1: uh back then for the United States. And the first
Speaker 1: thing that he did was say I want payment of
Speaker 1: a quarter cask of wine. But then he said, actually
Speaker 1: I want pounds, which would be like half a million
Speaker 1: pounds today. Wow. Um, Apparently it bureaucracy took over and
Speaker 1: they batted it back and forth, and then we're like, well, no,
Speaker 1: we're paying you as an it's sort of that like
Speaker 1: working for a corporation and owning your own I P.
Speaker 1: And they were like, no, we're paying you anyway, this
Speaker 1: is ours. And when you look at what he filed
Speaker 1: for and this is where the naval thing comes in.
Speaker 1: It was for the naval flag of the United States,
Speaker 1: is what he requested payment for. Right. Supposedly, the quarter
Speaker 1: cask of public wine was for the American flag, and
Speaker 1: the big old pound bill was for the naval flag.
Speaker 1: And that's the only one that Congress responded to. They
Speaker 1: just totally ignored the first one. I guess, yeah, but
Speaker 1: this is where I just get a little confused, like
Speaker 1: it was important. Uh. And that's the kind of one
Speaker 1: of the keys here too, is that they needed a flag.
Speaker 1: It wasn't just like I mean, there were practical reasons.
Speaker 1: It's not like we just want to fly a flag
Speaker 1: like in battle. Flags are very important, or they were
Speaker 1: back then, because if you were a small navy and
Speaker 1: you didn't have a flag that everyone knew, as you know,
Speaker 1: the United States would be basically don't bomb me, right exactly,
Speaker 1: don't shoot I'm I'm friendly with you. Which needed naval flag, right, So, um,
Speaker 1: they had they There are a bunch of flags that
Speaker 1: that you had find in revolutionary America at the time.
Speaker 1: There were some very famous ones that you would recognize today. Um,
Speaker 1: the Washington Squadron it is it's a white flag with
Speaker 1: a green pine tree, right, Which is the point of
Speaker 1: that is to say that, um, when you revolt, you're
Speaker 1: you're going above the king's head because the king was
Speaker 1: that had the divine right, like they ruled by, you know,
Speaker 1: on behalf of heaven. So by revolting against the king,
Speaker 1: you were going to heaven the king's boss and saying, hey,
Speaker 1: we want to get rid of this guy. But the
Speaker 1: pine tree there was actually a revolt that was that
Speaker 1: took place a few years before the Boston Tea Party.
Speaker 1: Even it was the first revolt in the in the
Speaker 1: colonies against the king, the first actual revolt, and it
Speaker 1: was because the king said, I own this pine tree,
Speaker 1: I own that pine tree, I own this pine tree. Um.
Speaker 1: And they were to make ships masts out of they
Speaker 1: were very, very valuable, but the king was keeping all
Speaker 1: the good ones, and so these mill owners just started
Speaker 1: cutting up the king's ones as well. And the sheriff,
Speaker 1: and I can't remember where it was, but came to
Speaker 1: arrest a mill owner, and some other mill owners came
Speaker 1: around and they beat the sheriff up and chased him off.
Speaker 1: And that was the first actual act of rebellion in
Speaker 1: the colonies. And that's why the pine tree became a
Speaker 1: symbol of rebellion and revolution. Yeah, I didn't know that
Speaker 1: until today. It's a symbol of a pain in my
Speaker 1: butt if you're king, the king, the King of England.
Speaker 1: But it's a pretty flag, that's all right. Okay, are
Speaker 1: you a Gadsden flag person? Okay, not that thing, that's
Speaker 1: too much controversy. That's the very famous don't tread on
Speaker 1: Me flag, right, the rattlesnake coiled up saying don't mess
Speaker 1: with Texas. Well not Texas, don't tread on me, that's
Speaker 1: what it says. Uh yeah. And then there's of course
Speaker 1: the Sons of Liberty flag. Nine vertical stripes, red and white. Um,
Speaker 1: it's fine, and this, you know, and this one took different,
Speaker 1: um different the the one we stuck with with the
Speaker 1: thirteen stripes and thirteen stars over the blue field in
Speaker 1: the upper left corner. Um. There were different designs for that,
Speaker 1: including one that I think I might have liked better. Um. Well,
Speaker 1: one time they had thirteen stars and forming a square.
Speaker 1: But then they had one where they were in an
Speaker 1: arch over seventy six, which I think would look kind
Speaker 1: of cool. That's a boss flag. Yeah, yeah, I agreed
Speaker 1: for a little while. They had the American flag, the
Speaker 1: red and white stripes thirteen red and white stripes UM
Speaker 1: as a field on the flag, and then the canton,
Speaker 1: which is um a square in the upper left corner,
Speaker 1: which can be up to a quarter of the size
Speaker 1: of the flag, and it's still considered a canton. Um
Speaker 1: was the Union jack the British flag, Yeah, it looks
Speaker 1: real weird and um they apparently were running into trouble
Speaker 1: flying that too because it was a little confusing, so
Speaker 1: they abandoned that. And as legend has it, that flag
Speaker 1: is what what what showed that they really needed an
Speaker 1: official United States flag, and so that supposedly is what
Speaker 1: led to that Betsy Ross flag, which was thirteen stars
Speaker 1: in a circle on canton, a blue canton with the
Speaker 1: thirteen alternating red and white stripes. Yeah. I would say
Speaker 1: that at the very least, the Union, the Grand Union
Speaker 1: Flag as it was known, with the Union Jack in
Speaker 1: the corner, was highly confusing in battle. Right, So Congress,
Speaker 1: it becomes clear to them that they that yes, they
Speaker 1: need a flag, we need a national flag. But the
Speaker 1: big distinction between what actually happened and this this story
Speaker 1: of Betsy Ross, is that they didn't say anything about
Speaker 1: the flag until June fourteen, seventy seven, when they passed
Speaker 1: a flag resolution and they just basically said, yeah, these
Speaker 1: are these are some things we want on the flag,
Speaker 1: and that's it. And that's the first time there's any trail,
Speaker 1: any paper trail, of the United States actually thinking and
Speaker 1: talking about and discussing a flag. And we have every
Speaker 1: other change from then up to I think nineteen fifty
Speaker 1: nine or nineteen sixty, um. From seventies and seventies seven
Speaker 1: onto the mid twentieth century, you know every change that
Speaker 1: was made because they documented it. But this alleged first
Speaker 1: Betsy Ross flag took place outside of that documented history. Well,
Speaker 1: they may not have known at the time, you know
Speaker 1: that this was something important, Yeah, I guess so. Um,
Speaker 1: So you know why does this happen? Well, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of reasons. Um. One reason was, even way back
Speaker 1: in the eighteen seventies, there was a notion that uh,
Speaker 1: women were doing some great things and being overlooked, and
Speaker 1: they wanted to inspire young women and girls across the
Speaker 1: country to do great things as well. So what better
Speaker 1: way to do so than to um sort of gussie
Speaker 1: up this Betsy Ross story, right. Um, there was also
Speaker 1: like a desire for you kind of referenced it earlier
Speaker 1: about um the centennial coming up in eighteen seventy six.
Speaker 1: There was like a real hunger in the United States,
Speaker 1: which was a relatively young country um to to to
Speaker 1: have its own mythology. And so that's what some of
Speaker 1: these stories that were being um kind of generated and
Speaker 1: rehashed or put down on paper for maybe the first
Speaker 1: time that that's what they provided, was this this shared
Speaker 1: national history that that the United States citizens were kind
Speaker 1: of like rallying behind. And that's that's a good example
Speaker 1: of why that would have taken off and become cemented. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The other thing that kind of cracks me up is
Speaker 1: the fact that George Washington was in the story himself, right,
Speaker 1: because apparently he was just such a legend at the time.
Speaker 1: Uh and just you know, emblematic of of what this
Speaker 1: country was and would be, is that he turned up
Speaker 1: in a lot of stories that he was he was
Speaker 1: never really at because I mean, this is a time
Speaker 1: where people would just tell a story and be like,
Speaker 1: and guess who else was there? Maybe if they're losing
Speaker 1: the crowd, General George Washington himself, the crowds just gas
Speaker 1: and sits up. That's great if they the crowd. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then, of course the easiest explanation is that, you know,
Speaker 1: it's a simple story and it's easy to tell, and uh,
Speaker 1: it's pretty streamed. Line, has a nice beginning, middle, and end,
Speaker 1: and it's much better than some weird, convoluted retelling that
Speaker 1: no one would remember anyway. Right, So here's where Frances
Speaker 1: Hopkinson comes in the story. Uh, it's a gonna get
Speaker 1: a little money here, kid, but just the wine. But
Speaker 1: then money. And then it was a naval flag, right. Uh,
Speaker 1: let's see, I got a couple of things about the flag.
Speaker 1: So you know, there's the study of flags, how they're made,
Speaker 1: what they're what they symbolize, is called vel exology. I
Speaker 1: thought it was flaggery. No. Um, that's where you're starting
Speaker 1: to lose steam. Okay, vel exology. There's a great invisible
Speaker 1: episode on flags. Heard that word it is? Um. So
Speaker 1: the United States flag there's thirteen horizontal stripes, seven red,
Speaker 1: six white. In case you ever want to win at trivia.
Speaker 1: The stripes are the thirteen colonies, obviously, and the stars
Speaker 1: of the fifty states of the Union. Um. The red
Speaker 1: symbolizes hardiness and valor not blood. White symbolizes purity and innocence.
Speaker 1: Blue represents vigilance, perseverance, and justice. And if you ever
Speaker 1: want to see a heck of a flag, go to
Speaker 1: the Smithsonian Museum of American History and you can see
Speaker 1: the Star Spangled banner, the flag that was flying over
Speaker 1: Fort McHenry in eighteen fourteen when Francis Scott Key looked
Speaker 1: up in the dawn's light and saw that it was
Speaker 1: still flying over there despite just a massive assault by
Speaker 1: the British, and was inspired to write the Star Spangled Banner,
Speaker 1: which became the national anthem. And thirty three I believe ye,
Speaker 1: of course is what I meant. Amazing. So that's the flag,
Speaker 1: and Betsy Ross go forth and tell the truth. Uh.
Speaker 1: And if you want to know more about Betsy ROSSI
Speaker 1: you can read this article, a fine one by Ed
Speaker 1: Grabanowski actually on how Stuff Works dot com. Since I
Speaker 1: said that it's time for listener mail, I'm gonna call
Speaker 1: this really cool email from an Atari guy. This is thrilling.
Speaker 1: I thought so too. Hey, guys, love the show. I
Speaker 1: worked at Attari in the late seventies. I ran the
Speaker 1: warehouse in nineteen seventy six, Warner Brothers purchased Attari from
Speaker 1: its founder Nolan Bushnell. No One stayed on for a
Speaker 1: couple of years after that, before departing in seventy eight.
Speaker 1: Cartridges created to meet movie releases is probably one of
Speaker 1: the reasons he left. When I first heard that the
Speaker 1: ET cartridges had been buried, I laughed because I oversaw
Speaker 1: the burying of leftover Superman cartridges for that first movie
Speaker 1: and seventy eight at the Ebil, California landfill, which is
Speaker 1: right across the street from the building. Iran, something you
Speaker 1: would not be able to do today because of environmental restrictions.
Speaker 1: Um like the ET cartridge, Superman would fly around, pick
Speaker 1: up Lois Lane and rescue her from some villains. The
Speaker 1: only problem Superman kept dropping her and she would plumme
Speaker 1: it to the ground. That's a bug. It's so funny.
Speaker 1: It's just so similar to eat. The cartridge was rushed
Speaker 1: into production was a huge flop. I thought you might
Speaker 1: find the Warner Brothers tie interesting. Sure that is from
Speaker 1: Gordon Selig. Nice Thanks a lot, Gordon. That was a
Speaker 1: good one. I think I see he runs his own
Speaker 1: I T business now too. Yeah, man, that's that's what happens. Um.
Speaker 1: So if you want to get in touch of this,
Speaker 1: like Gordon did with a great story that kind of
Speaker 1: rounds out something we were talking about. We love those things.
Speaker 1: You can tweet to us at s Y s K podcast.
Speaker 1: You can join us on Facebook dot com. It's slash
Speaker 1: stuff you should know. You can hang out with the
Speaker 1: Sun Insta Graham. I've got my own site that Josh
Speaker 1: clark Way. And then, as always, you can send us
Speaker 1: a nice email to Stuff Podcasts at how stuff works
Speaker 1: dot com for moralness and thousands of other topics. Is
Speaker 1: it how stuff works dot com m