WEBVTT - The Legend of Betsy Ross 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:04.560 Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from how Stuff Works 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:14.160 dot com. Yankee Doodle, Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:18.720 I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles Um Spirit of seventies 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:25.040 six Bryant and Jerry Bicentennial Baby Roland. And I'm Josh. 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:29.360 Like I said, Jerry wishes she was a bicentennial baby. Yes, 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:32.360 she does, both of y'all. Do I know, man, i'd 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:36.680 be five years younger. That's exactly where I am, squarely 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:40.080 in the bi centennial baby year. Oh that's right. I 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:42.720 demand people refer to me as such when I'm out 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:49.559 in public. Dr bi Centennial Baby Clark. Ye. So how 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:52.400 are you feeling pretty good? Good man? We should probably 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:56.120 say thank you to all the people who came out 0:00:56.200 --> 0:00:58.960 for our West Coast jaunt. Yeah, that's a good idea, 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:02.640 Chuck last week, so big thanks to Seattle, Portland in 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:05.920 San Francisco for Stuff you Should Know shows, and then 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:10.160 everyone who came out for movie Crushing Into the World Live. Yes, 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:12.840 thank you to everybody for all those jams we had. 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:16.000 We had like really good crowds and good responses everywhere 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:18.160 we went. How did you think go? I was drunk 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:21.400 in Wine Country? It went really well. I was tense 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:25.360 and on stage and Cafe do Nord. Actually it went 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:27.440 well when I went out, so it's like it includes 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:31.240 like a presentation, right, a visual audio visual thing. And 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:33.160 I could not get it to start working for a 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:37.880 good fifteen seconds, which which in my mind was a 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:41.319 good fifteen minutes, and I was like, if you've all 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:43.320 ever wanted to see someone die of fright on stage? 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:46.520 But I got it working and it went well from there. 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:48.320 But the thing that got me the most was they 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:52.800 sat around for thirty more minutes after the show asking questions, 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:54.520 so they were really into it and it meant a 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:57.559 lot to me. Thank you, and um we I haven't 0:01:57.600 --> 0:01:59.840 been to Brooklyn yet, but this will come out after 0:01:59.880 --> 0:02:02.920 the Brooklyn show, and I'm just going to know, actually 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:05.080 will come out probably the day of the Brooklyn show. 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:07.960 I'll hold my thanks for then we'll see how it 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:11.959 goes Brooklyn. Great, congratulations. How did yours go with Busy Phillips? 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:14.760 It was good. It was fun. She's super nice and uh, 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:18.519 I only made a couple of really terrible jokes and 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:21.400 I will cut those out. Oh you gotta leave them in. 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:23.760 Were they that bad? Now? Yeah, they were pretty bad. Okay, 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:27.280 like dad jokes are like super offensive jokes. So one 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:31.200 which evidently Emily said I said the wrong word, which 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:35.760 explains why it made no sense because she even asked 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:37.160 me a straight She was like, what was up with 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:40.640 that one joke? It's like what? And I told her 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:41.880 and she was like, no, no, no, that's not what 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:45.040 you said. I was like, oh, I don't, won't say 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:49.000 it here, but it it explained a lot. You gotta 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:52.120 tell me later. Okay, yeah, I'll totally tell you. Okay, cool, 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:55.320 But what about the other one? Was it a dad joke? Uh? No, 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:59.560 just dumb Okay, I gotta keep the image up. I 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:02.960 know it's mean, man, sure, but otherwise it'll be although 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:05.920 I don't I got the file today and like the 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:08.360 last twenty minutes of it aren't there. So I emailed 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:11.000 them and they're like, please tell me this is not all. 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:14.000 So it may be a truncated version. I don't know. 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:16.880 I don't know. We'll see the lost episode is what 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:22.519 they call. Um. Okay, well, good, good, congratulations. I'm glad. 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:25.800 Aside from the file snaffood and those two bad jokes, 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:30.440 otherwise it was great. Uh and we're gonna go back 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:33.079 out on the road sometimes soon. We decided this year, right, Yeah, 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:36.480 we're figuring it out. Hopefully another like nine is shows 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:40.040 maybe the course of this year. Sure, places we've never been, 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:43.800 places we have been. Who knows, we're gonna mix it up. Yeah, yeah, 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:45.640 so keep an ear out for that. We've learned. Now 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:47.600 we're just straight up going to put that in the 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:52.600 beginnings of episodes. No messing around anymore, no messing around. Okay, 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:55.400 So all of that, of course seguys quite nicely into 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:58.600 the story of Betsy Ross and the American flags origin 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:03.720 broad I don't know that's necessarily true. I don't think 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:07.440 that's the official historical stance, but I think a better 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:11.680 way to say it. Chuck is questioned, and hey, just 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:15.200 a great story for history. So who cares if it's true? Yeah, 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:21.720 Layoff puts no. No. The person who's like, you know, 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:28.360 said fraud. I guess. Uh. So let's well, I mean, 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:31.560 let's get into this because, uh, the first thing that 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:35.640 you will probably say, if you're a um Betsy Ross believer, 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:38.480 she was a real person, by the way, Yeah, I 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:40.480 think the first thing a lot of our listeners around 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:43.559 the world will say was is who is Betsy Ross? Sure, 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:45.520 well she is credited, which is where I was going 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:50.679 with the Uh the sort of creation, design and sewing 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:53.599 of the first flag thanks to a lot of things, 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:57.680 but certainly held up by a very famous painting called 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:00.760 the Birth of Our Nation's Flag by Charles is Weisberger. 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:04.320 Very famous painting. Yeah, but it's one of those paintings. 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:06.560 It's like super old timing where there's a lot of 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:11.560 written explanation painted into the painting. M hm. I just 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:16.960 find that's just there's nothing more old timey than that. Uh. Well, sure, 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:20.599 I wasn't expecting this, he says, something along the line 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:28.000 an award. Well, I don't have anything prepared, he said, Um, 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:32.120 this is uh. The national standard was made by Betsy 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:36.880 Ross in seventeen seventy six at two three Niner Art Street, Philadelphia, 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:39.800 in the room represented in this picture. That's a lot 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:43.520 of words, but it goes on still. The committee Robert 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:47.960 Morris and Honorable George Ross, accompanied by General George Washington, 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:51.520 called upon this celebrated woman, and together with her suggestions, 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:55.479 produced our beautiful emblem of Liberty. So what do you 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:58.520 guys do in this weekend? I was thinking about maybe 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:01.480 going roller skating, I know, it hasn't been invented yet 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:06.040 because it's only eighteen seventies something, and he actually wrote 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:10.320 out eighteen seventies something, and then he said, how about 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:12.680 this new country pretty neat? Huh, right, And that just 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:15.680 kind of trails off from there. It ends there. It's 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:18.520 a lot. It's a really wordy painting. Frankly, it is 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:21.359 very wordy, but that that helps sort of cement the 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:25.520 idea that Betsy Ross was in fact the designer and 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:30.560 creator and seamstress. I guess for the first flag. Well, 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:32.800 I'm going to take issue on behalf of some of 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:37.279 our more historically astute listeners and say, she I don't 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:40.120 think she's credited with designing the flag. I think that's 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:42.320 the one thing that everybody agrees on, is that she 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:46.400 is not given credit for designing it. She's she's given 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:49.680 credit for create, like physically creating the first flag and 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:54.240 then helping with some troubleshooting in the early design. Oh, 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:58.120 you should go to an elementary school. Why are they 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:03.120 teaching otherwise? Sure? Is that right? Yeah, it's all created 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:09.159 by Betsy Ross. Fraud. It's not true. What wait, which 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:10.680 part is not to the thing? You said? Her? The thing? 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:14.480 I just said neither one. Okay, but we should talk 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:17.840 about the real Betsy Ross because she was a real lady. Um, 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:22.760 she's not an apparition or a visage. Uh. She was 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:25.680 born in seventeen fifty two on New Year's Day. She's 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:31.600 a New Year's Day baby supposedly, Um, I think that's documented. Yeah. Probably. 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:36.840 Elizabeth Griscombe was her name. Born to Samuel and Rebecca 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:41.360 in Pennsylvania, and her great grand pappy Andrew Griscombe, was 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:44.760 a very notable Philadelphian. He was one of the first 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:49.320 settlers in a carpenter in like built apparently a lot 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:53.840 of Philadelphia's first buildings. Yeah, which is I mean that's 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:57.240 that's pretty prominent for um that that time, because I mean, 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:00.160 this is when the whole place is being settled, and 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:03.760 it's being settled by Quakers. So um, like Pennsylvania is 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:07.840 a Quaker settlement. And that's how Elizabeth Griscomb a k a. 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:11.200 Betsy Ross, Which makes you think like she she robbed 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:13.160 banks later in life and went on the lamb and 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:16.080 changed her name. Not true, you'll see it's it'll all 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:18.400 become a parent in a second. But she was raised 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:23.480 as a strict Quaker in Pennsylvania, right, one of nine 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:28.600 children who grew to adulthood, but her parents had seventeen kids. Dude, 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:32.480 that is so many kids. Man. Well, the Quakers take 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:37.920 like keeping their faith going by multiplying. Seriously. I mean, 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:40.640 that's like how a lot of religious groups are. Um, 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:44.040 they do it two fold. They reproduce a lot, and 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:48.280 they also try to make sure that they're they're members 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.680 who are born into their their groups marry other members 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:54.080 born in the group so that they will raise more 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:58.480 uh Quakers or what have you, and whatever the religious 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:02.160 group is. And actually Betsy ran a foul this later on, 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:04.680 as we'll see. She was a bit of a rebel. Yeah. 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:08.760 And also imagine Samuel as a Quaker was like, you know, 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:13.480 it's very fun procreation, and his wife was like, it's 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:18.240 not as fun for me. He's such a great like 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:21.800 eighteenth century Quaker impression maybe the best I've ever heard. 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:25.080 This is the one thing we're allowed to do that's good. Well. 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:28.800 They so the Quakers actually had a really really liberal society, 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:30.840 Like there was a lot of equality, there was a 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:33.040 lot of um. It was a very They were a 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:36.160 very peaceful group and still are their pacifists through and 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:40.360 through um. But they also were really strict morally, like 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.240 if you were in a play, you could be fine 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:46.120 twenty shillings and spend ten days ten days in jail 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:49.120 for being in a play because it was just kind 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:52.840 of frivolous and not very religious. But on the other hand, um, 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:56.319 they all drank like fish. Um, you just weren't allowed 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:58.280 to sell it to like the Native Americans, because they 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:04.000 equated that with corrupting them. Now of some Quakers, Oh yeah, sure, nice. 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:07.640 Do you I think we used to work with one, 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:12.680 didn't we? Yes, yes, so I think we know the 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:15.640 same Quakers probably, But now I'm wondering. First of all, 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:17.000 I was about to shout out the name. Then I 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:19.160 was like should I not? Then I was like, why wouldn't, 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:22.880 I said, the whole thing happened, Why would I Yeah, exactly, 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:25.319 And then you thought fraud. Well, some people like to 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:27.760 keep their stuff personal, so I'm just I'm not gonna 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:30.760 do that. Under the table Quaker is what that that is. 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:34.000 But they're they're also called the Society of Friends, I 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:36.600 think is the greatest name for any religious group of 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:42.400 all time, right founded by six year olds. Society Society 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:46.319 of Best Winds Um all right, so they're in Pennsylvania. 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:48.240 The one thing that we do know is that her 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:51.840 nickname was Betsy h And when she was about fifteen 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:55.320 she did learn to sew very well. She was an 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:59.280 apprentice to an upholster named John Webster, and this is 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:03.680 where she learned her craft. Right and um, when you 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:06.360 think of like you always hear of Betsy Ross being 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:09.760 a seamstress, right, she was not a seamstress. She was, 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:12.360 like you just said, an upholsterer, which involved a lot 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:14.720 more than say dressmaking. As a matter of fact, I'm 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:17.160 sure she did make clothes here there she knew how to, 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:21.040 but mostly her stuff was on like sewing curtains and 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:25.360 tablecloths and rugs and like other textiles, um, rather than 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:28.920 like actual clothing. So she was in upholsterer three and through. 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:34.360 So it seems stress specifically clothing. That's the impression I have. Interesting. 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:37.120 I feel like such a fraud because I didn't look 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:39.400 up the difference between the two. But that's that's my 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:43.760 take on it. I'm gonna find out also, chook umbrellas, 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:48.920 Venetian blinds and flags, that's something in a pholsterer would 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:51.839 have made back in the eighteenth century. Apparently a seamstress 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:55.440 is any woman who sews well. Then I wonder if 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:59.680 aupholsterer is a specialty of a seamstress then yeah, probably 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:02.480 so okay. And what is a man whoso is called 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:09.199 a seamster? Maybe never never thought about that. And if 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:14.199 he's in the union, he's a seamster teamster. Oh, Dad, 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:18.319 I know it's gotten really bad. Maybe we'll have Jerry 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:21.560 cut that out to keep my public inventory. Uh So, 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.160 while she was doing this work, she met a man 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:28.240 named John Ross, not the last name. And he was 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:30.839 also an apprentice, and he was good at it, and 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:33.640 he opened his own shop, and he was sort of 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:37.920 I mean, he came he came from a well connected family. Uh. 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:42.359 And that his actual uncle, George you might have recognized 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:46.240 from that painting, George Ross Jr. He was He signed 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:50.440 the Declaration of Independence, right, so that's legit. Oh yeah, 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:53.520 he was a he was big time. He was um 0:12:53.559 --> 0:13:00.000 I think a representative for UM for Pennsylvania and the legislature, 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:02.680 either Pennsylvania or New Jersey, one of the two. He was. 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:04.840 He was a big wig. If he's hanging out with 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:09.000 George Washington and Betsy Ross's upholstery shop. Then he was 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:12.440 a big wig, that's right, a big powdered wig by 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:16.800 the way. So so this her marriage to John Ross. 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:20.760 It didn't last very long, um, although it was um 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:26.640 kind of marked by that like younger younger age radicalism 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:30.640 where she So John Ross was an Anglican, right, Yeah, 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:33.160 he wasn't a Quaker, which was bad, right, So they 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:35.120 fell in love. He was in a pholster as well, 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:40.439 and um, John Ross and Bets Betsy later Betsy Ross. 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:42.520 When they met and fell in love, they had to 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:45.480 elope to New Jersey, which everybody does, the Elope to 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:49.480 New Jersey, um, because her parents were like, you cannot 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:51.520 do that, and she said, well I'm doing it, and 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:53.240 they said, well then you're out. And she went off 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:57.360 and got married and she was, um, ex excommunicated is 0:13:57.400 --> 0:13:59.280 not the way I think that's specifically Catholic. But she 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:02.079 was kicked out of the Quakers and her parents, her 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:05.360 family disowned her. So she definitely loved the guy went 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:09.560 off and followed her heart and they made sweet upholstery 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:13.400 together because he opened his own shop. Actually, yeah, it's 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:15.480 really sad though. I mean, it's great that they found 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:19.960 each other, but it's anytime someone's like expelled and disowned 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:23.040 by their family, it's just sort of of her religions 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:25.400 a sad thing, Yeah it is. Or yeah, for any 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:28.000 reason really, you know, like bringing shame or dishonner. It's 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:30.680 like it's your family that's supposed to They're supposed to 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:33.280 be there for you no matter what, but it doesn't 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:37.040 always work out that way. Which which was which Chuck 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:40.240 means that family is what you make of it. I 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:43.480 thought family, what was it? Never trust family, Never trust family, 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:48.960 but specifically blood family. Okay. Um, So the Revolutionary War 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:54.680 comes along and in Philadelphia, um, people were you know, 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:58.520 kind of getting together forming militias in order to you know, 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:01.360 defend the city in case in case things went down, 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:04.640 And no one knows for sure what was going on 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:09.880 with John and Betsy, but we do know that he died. 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:13.440 We just don't know quite how. Yeah. They think maybe 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:16.720 it was either an accident um or a death from 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:21.520 being in the militia, or there's there's supposedly, uh family 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:24.760 rumor that he may have suffered from mental illness and 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:27.800 may have died as a result of something some complication 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:30.360 from that. Yeah. It's really sad though, because that was 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:33.880 obviously her true love enough to to leave her family 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:38.280 in religion. And she was widowed in seventeen seventy six, 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:43.040 just what three years later after they got married. Yep, 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:46.840 so so it was just three years after, right, Yeah, okay, 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:49.760 So when she was a widow that that radicalism I 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:53.080 mentioned earlier started to kick in. She um went back 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:55.720 to Quakers. Um, if she ever left, I don't. I've 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:59.680 never seen that she began attending like Anglican mass or anything. 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:01.920 But she went back to the Quakers. But she joined 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:04.960 a group, a specific group of Quakers called the Free 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:08.240 Quakers or Fighting Quakers, who were like, yeah, we're Quakers, 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:13.200 but we also are not crazy into pacifism because well, yeah, 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:16.840 we will shoved me back, shoved me and see what happens. Um, 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:19.960 and uh that was what they wore on their on 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:26.080 their shirts. But um oh man. But um, the reason 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:29.480 that they were anti pacifists because they wanted to support 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:31.640 independence and then there was going to be a fight, 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:34.800 a struggle for independence, and you couldn't really side with 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:39.480 one side and and not and be a pacifist. Basically. Yeah, 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:42.760 remember our pacifism episode. That was a good one. Yeah, 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:46.520 that was a good one, so she uh was once 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:49.640 again unlucky in love. She got married again to a 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:54.360 man named Joseph ashburn He died in prison and in Britain, 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:58.680 and then she finally got married a third time to 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:01.800 a man named John Claypool will and she was married 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:04.720 to him until he died. But this was like twenty 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:06.840 years this time. You want you want to know how 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:11.719 She and John Claypool met at her second husband's funeral 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:17.360 almost okay, he showed up bar afterwards. John Claypool even 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:21.359 even more even sooner than that. John Claypool was imprisoned 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:24.280 with Joseph Ashburne over in Great Britain, and after he 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:26.959 got out, he made his way over to America. And 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:29.280 he's the one who brought Betsy Ross the news that 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:31.959 her husband had died. And then he, I guess he 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:35.800 was like, so you're doing all right? Can I Can 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:38.600 I be of any assistance for you? And rather than 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:43.360 just being there for her, he took away before her 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:47.359 and he was just there. I wonder if he was like, 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:51.119 by the way, your husband's last words were totally you 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:54.080 should go marry my wife. That's the that's what they 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:58.399 used to do back in the day. So she worked 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:00.840 as an upholster until she died at the age of 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:04.720 four and eighteen thirty six. She had five little girls, 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:09.600 which is kind of great. And aside from that, that's 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:12.880 kind of what we know about Betsy Ross. Um, as 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:15.399 far as the facts go, Yeah, that's about where they 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:19.520 run out. And you might say, listener, well guys, you 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:22.280 left out the most important one, the most important fact, 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:24.880 the story of her sewing the American flag. Well, well, 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:27.520 we're going to stick by what we just said and 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:30.760 say that we just ran out of facts, which means 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:32.720 it's pretty good time for a message break, don't you think. 0:18:32.800 --> 0:19:06.040 Charles agreed, We'll be right back. Okay, So it's about 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:08.240 here that we should kind of go over the Betsy 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:12.040 Ross legend because what we just described as in eighteen 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:17.560 early nineteenth century American woman who was a Quaker and 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:22.640 an upholsterer, and her love life and her children, her offspring. Yes, 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:28.440 that's it, that's all we've got. Um. So the flag story, 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.280 for those of you who aren't familiar with this, is 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:34.320 that when Betsy Ross was hanging around her upholstery shop 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:37.520 one day in Philadelphia and I believe seventeen seventy six, 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:40.520 I think June seventeen seventy six when they say it happened. 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:46.359 Three men came in that trio, including George Washington, George Ross, 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:51.360 who was um remember her first husband's uncle, and then 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:54.400 a man named Robert Morris, who was a wealthy man 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:58.040 known as the financier of the Revolution and considered one 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:01.160 of the founders of the US financials system. These three 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:04.800 come in, very very important men, and as legend goes, 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:09.760 Betsy Ross recognized George Washington immediately and they said, Ms Ross, 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:13.000 we need your help. We we have to. We're part 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:16.520 of the Continental Congress's Flag Committee and we've been tasked 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:18.760 with coming up with the flag. Will you help us 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:21.440 create this flag? And she basically said, let me see 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:23.880 what you got. Yeah, she said, well, first of all, 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:27.439 my husband passed away six months ago, so why are 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:31.040 you bothering me of all people, right, And Uncle George 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:33.960 was like, I know, but you're still family. You still 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:36.159 got Ross on your name, and this will make for 0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:39.480 a good story later, right. So she looks at the 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:42.960 design and she said, this is not bad, she said, 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:46.040 but you may want to change the proportions a bit. 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:48.480 And her real and and this is kind of the 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:51.560 one thing that I think most historians do agree on 0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:56.440 is that her one big change design wise was changing 0:20:56.840 --> 0:20:59.800 the star from a six pointer to a five pointer. 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:03.240 Right if you if you agree that that Betsy Ross 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:06.000 did have a hand in making the original flag, then yeah, 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:09.040 you would probably say that's probably correct. And apparently just 0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:13.199 because it was easier on her to cut. Yeah, I 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:15.760 think though that they were saying, like, five pointed stars 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:17.600 would be harder than a six point star, and she 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:19.879 said no, no, and like whipped out her scissors and 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:22.880 cut up some either cloth or paper and showed them 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:25.639 how easy it wasn't They're like, oh, that's beautiful. And 0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:28.399 George Westington was like, are we still talking about this? 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:32.000 Can we go? He's like, why am I in the 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:37.440 bulstry shop? Why am I in the story? It doesn't 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:40.680 even make sense that I would be here? Oh save that? 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:46.960 So um, they said, sure, that's fine. Easier to cut. 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:50.280 You've proved it, even though George Ross was over there 0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:53.800 trying to cut the six and prove her wrong. The 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:57.360 sun went down, came back up, he was missing a fingertip, 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:01.240 and so they said that that that's fine, let's just 0:22:01.280 --> 0:22:04.960 do it, and uh, they draw up the new sketch. Uh. 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:09.040 They incorporate her her new star, and they said, get 0:22:09.080 --> 0:22:12.720 to it, kind lady, and she did, and it's a 0:22:12.840 --> 0:22:14.719 It was a big flag. It wasn't like this was 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:17.840 when they were gonna fly, you know, out in public, 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:20.600 so it wasn't like a little tester flag. So it 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:23.040 took a while and what it would It took a 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:26.280 few days maybe, and she finally says, here's what I've 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:28.639 got and they say, this is great. Let's see how 0:22:28.680 --> 0:22:30.880 it looks on a on the mast of a ship. 0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:34.400 They hoisted it up a ship and they said, all right, 0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:38.560 I think we're good to go here everyone. Basically, that's it. 0:22:38.800 --> 0:22:40.960 You know, it's just occurred to me, Chuck, is how 0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:46.119 closely our History episodes resemble Drunk History episode except for 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:52.320 sober right ish um? But the uh so the flag 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:55.040 is it's been proven on this mass of the ship. 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:57.840 It looks beautiful. And they go back to Betsy Ross 0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:00.240 and they say, Betsy, we're gonna need a lot more 0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:03.399 of these. And the implication is commerce takes over and 0:23:03.520 --> 0:23:07.720 Betsy becomes wealthy and secures her her her place as 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:12.280 one of the the important figures of early American history. 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:16.320 That's right. Uh. Here's the thing though, is there is 0:23:16.359 --> 0:23:19.160 no proof or evidence that this happened. This all comes 0:23:19.160 --> 0:23:25.119 from a story that her grandson, William can be told 0:23:25.359 --> 0:23:29.800 in eighteen seventies. So she's been passed away for uh 0:23:30.000 --> 0:23:33.680 what thirty years more, almost close to forty, Yeah, between 0:23:33.680 --> 0:23:36.439 thirty and forty. So she but but it wasn't like 0:23:36.520 --> 0:23:39.159 she died a hundred and fifty years before when her 0:23:39.200 --> 0:23:41.800 grandson wrote it down like he had known her in 0:23:41.920 --> 0:23:44.520 his lifetime. Yeah, and he said that his aunt had 0:23:44.560 --> 0:23:47.720 told him this ten years before and said, listen, she 0:23:47.800 --> 0:23:50.840 told me this story. He you know, recounted it, probably 0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:55.040 in a much nicer way than we just did. And uh, 0:23:55.080 --> 0:23:59.240 he told this in a speech at the Pennsylvania Historical Society. 0:24:00.119 --> 0:24:04.280 And this was, you know, eighteen seventy eighteen seventy six 0:24:04.320 --> 0:24:07.879 is right around the corner, and everyone's getting all uh 0:24:08.240 --> 0:24:12.760 all hot and bothered by the upcoming celebration. And I 0:24:12.800 --> 0:24:14.480