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Speaker 1: You're about to listen to one of our favorite episodes

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Speaker 1: of trust Me from July seventh, twenty twenty one, about

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Speaker 1: how Hoyt Richards was indoctrinated into the Eternal Values cult.

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Speaker 1: If you're new here, follow the show so you don't

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Speaker 1: miss the July thirtieth three turn of trust Me on

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Speaker 1: the Exactly Right Network.

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Speaker 2: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 2: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 2: an experience with manipulation or abusive power you'd like to share,

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Speaker 2: leave us a message on our hotline number at five

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Speaker 2: one three nine hundred two nine five five.

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Speaker 1: Or shoot us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust Me, trust Me, trust Me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lived. To you, I never had a live.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that one person has all the answers?

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Speaker 2: Don't Welcome to trust Me, the podcast about colts, extreme

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Speaker 2: belief and the abusive power from two supermodels who've actually

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Speaker 2: experienced it. I am Lola Blanc and.

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Speaker 1: I'm Megan Elizabeth, and.

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Speaker 2: Today our guest is the endlessly fascinating Hoyt Richards. He

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Speaker 2: is a producer, actor, and former supermodel who was in

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Speaker 2: a cult called Eternal Values. He's going to tell us

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Speaker 2: about being approached by a mysterious older man in Nantucket

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Speaker 2: named Frederick von Meerers Mir I actually don't remember myers.

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Speaker 2: Let's say when he was a teenager. This man had

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Speaker 2: a lot to say about Eastern philosophy, astrology, and New

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Speaker 2: Age thinking. And he's going to tell us about how,

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Speaker 2: over time, as Hoyt's career as a male model was

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Speaker 2: taking off, that man indoctrinated hoy until he believed that

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Speaker 2: the apocalypse was coming and it had to do with

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Speaker 2: a distant star called Arcturists.

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Speaker 1: We're also going to talk about how hoy finally escaped

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Speaker 1: and began to heal, how he thinks about what he

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Speaker 1: now calls cultic relationships, and how Fabio yes that Fabio

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Speaker 1: was involved in his recovery.

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Speaker 2: Great Fabio stories.

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Speaker 1: Oh who doesn't have a good Fabio's story? Uh? Everyone

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Speaker 1: except Toy.

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Speaker 2: I mean probably my friend. My friend just alerted me

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Speaker 2: to the fact that he was like supporting Trump in

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Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. Stars A little warmed about that. But you

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Speaker 2: know what, Okay, we can't all be perfect. Now, we

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Speaker 2: can all be perfect like me, So Megan tell me

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Speaker 2: what's the CULTI thing?

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Speaker 1: Well, mine, Holy shit, on a hike, you know how

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Speaker 1: they have those little book things where people just leave

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Speaker 1: books and like a little oh yeah, okay, So in

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Speaker 1: a bookcase there was this book called High on Arrival

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Speaker 1: by Mackenzie Phillips. I remember seeing it on Oprah. She

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Speaker 1: is the daughter of the Mama and the Papa's John Phillips.

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Speaker 2: The Mamas and the papas different bands. This is the

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Speaker 2: Mama and the Papa. I don't know if you've heard

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Speaker 2: of them.

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Speaker 1: So I was like, oh, fuck you, I want to

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Speaker 1: read this book. Holy shit. The cult of rock and

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Speaker 1: roll is endless. It is wild. It's all stuff we

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Speaker 1: already knew. But you know, she actually was in a

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Speaker 1: sexual relationship with her rock star father for ten years.

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Speaker 1: And just to see the things that these rock stars

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Speaker 1: were able to get away with, how much they were worshiped,

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Speaker 1: their lifestyles are just beyond the craziest cults.

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Speaker 2: Wow, it's oh true when you actually look into the

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Speaker 2: number of young teenagers, not like I'm talking year old,

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Speaker 2: seventeen eighty nineteen, yeah, and fucking thirteen year old that

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Speaker 2: these iconic rock legends were fucking.

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Speaker 1: Making songs about yes, Oh.

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Speaker 2: My god, it's insane. But that's next level though. Her dad,

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Speaker 2: her dad, So how old was she when that started?

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Speaker 1: Let me think, let me think, let me trigger warning,

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Speaker 1: obviously we're about to chock pardon yes, trigger yeah. I

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Speaker 1: think the first time it happened she was in her

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Speaker 1: early twenties. But I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Oh so it wasn't like from when she was a child.

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Speaker 1: She wasn't a child, but she was young.

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Speaker 2: But did she say how she felt about it?

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Speaker 1: I believe they were in a different country, they were somewhere,

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Speaker 1: they were in a hotel. They're both very high on drugs,

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Speaker 1: and she said she passed out and then she woke

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Speaker 1: up and that was happening. And then she like told

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Speaker 1: her family about it, and everyone was very upset, but

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Speaker 1: they were like, you know, this is going to ruin

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Speaker 1: his reputation. He's on a lot of drugs, like whatever.

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Speaker 1: And then I was very impressed. I mean, this is

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Speaker 1: assuming this is all correct, which in real which I

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Speaker 1: think it is. But she said she talked to him

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Speaker 1: a few months later. I was like, Dad, we need

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Speaker 1: to talk about when you rape me and he was like,

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Speaker 1: you mean when we made love? Like no, no, and

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Speaker 1: she was like, I think he's just so high on drugs.

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Speaker 1: It's like he doesn't know what's right and what's wrong.

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Speaker 1: And then a few years later it just started happening

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Speaker 1: like every day.

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Speaker 2: So he basically gas led her so hard and convinced

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Speaker 2: her that the rape was actually something that she Yeah,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, that's horrible. Sorry, made we already did

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Speaker 2: the trigger warning, but I'm sorry. I wasn't prepared. I

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Speaker 2: wasn't prepared for this one. Yeah, that's fucking insane. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you had mentioned another awful story about how Mick Jagger

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Speaker 2: also was living with this poor girl's girl.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she said that her and her dad and mcgaiger

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Speaker 1: were doing drugs one night and like mcjager ass her

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Speaker 1: dad for a tuna sandwich and when her dad disappeared,

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Speaker 1: McJagger locked the door and picked up with her, and

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Speaker 1: her dad was like pounding on the door like, hey,

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Speaker 1: that's my daughter. But not even really mad that McJagger

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Speaker 1: is having sex with the stuff. Oh, it's just that

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Speaker 1: it was even David Bowie.

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Speaker 2: Even David Bowie was sleeping with thirteen year olds. Are

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Speaker 2: we surprised by that?

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Speaker 1: I'm I don't know. It just sucks.

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Speaker 2: I think every old man listening to this is going

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Speaker 2: to be like loads were different times, right, but thirteen y'all. No, No,

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Speaker 2: that's a little kid.

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Speaker 1: That's gross.

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Speaker 2: That's a kid.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what about you?

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't know I can follow that up, but

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Speaker 2: that was my plan. We do really assign rock stars

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Speaker 2: this iconic cult leader status and they get away with

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Speaker 2: whatever the fuck we want, as we have talked about

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Speaker 2: a bit, But that would be an interesting episode actually,

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Speaker 2: like an old groupie, Yeah, that'd be cool. Yeah, we

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Speaker 2: should try to find any groupies former groupies listening, please

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Speaker 2: dm us my couldiest thing. Look, I had a real

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Speaker 2: decompression week, so I didn't do that much. However, after

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Speaker 2: last week's episode in which I talked about or was

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Speaker 2: it the week before, I don't remember, one of the

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Speaker 2: last two weeks in which I talked about the experience

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Speaker 2: that I had with the Shabari artist, the rope bondage guy,

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Speaker 2: and I was saying how that was a really cool

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Speaker 2: experience for me because you know, previously, when I have

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Speaker 2: hooked up with men who kind of identify as dominant

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Speaker 2: or whatever, it's just kind of like purely aggressive and

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Speaker 2: no communication. I got some angry messages. Oh and a

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Speaker 2: couple of supportive ones as well, being like this is

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Speaker 2: how BEDSM always is. It sounds like that's the only

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Speaker 2: person you've ever, you know, had an experience with who

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Speaker 2: was legitimately in the BDSM community. So let me be

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Speaker 2: clear everyone, Yes, the safe. Do you remember what the

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Speaker 2: acronym was?

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Speaker 1: All right?

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Speaker 2: She was saying, they change it to risk aware consensual KING.

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Speaker 2: But basically the idea is that, like, if you're actually

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Speaker 2: in the KING community, you are practicing active consent, You

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Speaker 2: are communicy in advance, you are making sure that the

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Speaker 2: other person is comfortable with everything that's happening. It is

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Speaker 2: really all about the subs comfort level, not the doms.

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Speaker 2: So yes, if you are actually in the kink community,

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Speaker 2: I am so sorry if I have offended you. However,

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Speaker 2: I think it's important to discuss the fact that usually

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Speaker 2: that's not what's happening. I've hooked up with a number

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Speaker 2: of men in my day, even if it's just like

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Speaker 2: a makeout or whatever. Like I've hooked up in some

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Speaker 2: fashion with a number of fellas in Los Angeles, and

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Speaker 2: let me tell you, a good portion of them were

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Speaker 2: choking or you know, like doing something relatively aggressive the

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Speaker 2: number of them who actually like asked what I wanted

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Speaker 2: and checked in and communicated with me about that I

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Speaker 2: can count on one hand.

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Speaker 1: That's psycho.

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Speaker 2: I mean, most women I know have this experience, though

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Speaker 2: has not been your experience. No really no, I mean

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Speaker 2: it's not like they're doing it crazy hard, right, but

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Speaker 2: like I think that is deaf. Definitely more normal than not.

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Speaker 2: And it's not like they're trying shabari on me and

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Speaker 2: you know, like yeah or doing anything crazy. But most

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Speaker 2: people just kind of willy nilly like do the thing

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Speaker 2: because they think that that's hot or that's what the

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Speaker 2: girl's gonna find hot or whatever. They don't fucking communicate

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Speaker 2: about it at all. And this is what us who

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Speaker 2: aren't in the king community are going about our lives

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Speaker 2: and like not realizing that there is an alternative way

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Speaker 2: to do it. That's cool anyway. I think it's important.

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Speaker 1: It's not about shaming people who are doing it right

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Speaker 1: or oh.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, y yeah, we want like that's great. We should

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Speaker 2: all be communicating more during sex and before sex and

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Speaker 2: after sex. You know, it's such a taboo topic we

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Speaker 2: don't really talk about it. But I also think it's

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Speaker 2: important to acknowledge that, like, without those discussions, nothing is

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Speaker 2: ever gonna, like culturally get better if you're just gonna

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Speaker 2: get mad, right, you know it makes sense, but so

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Speaker 2: sorry if I offended, y'all.

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Speaker 1: Wait before we start. Alison Matt got three years in

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Speaker 1: gel three years.

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Speaker 2: I don't ever know how to gauge what like a

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Speaker 2: fair amount of jail time is to be honest.

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Speaker 1: Well, you're not a judge, so that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: But judges don't either, They're just people. Yeah, like what

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Speaker 2: is justice? Sorry, I'll hear a number of years that

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Speaker 2: a person who was going to prison for and I

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Speaker 2: only understand no prison or lifetime prison, and everything in

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Speaker 2: the middle just feels arbitrary. I don't know. Is that

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Speaker 2: not enough? Is that too much? What do you think?

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Speaker 1: I think it's probably not enough, just from listening to

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Speaker 1: her victims who say they don't think it's fair.

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Speaker 2: Do we know how much they wanted?

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Speaker 1: I think the one I was reading was like she

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Speaker 1: wanted maximum, which I believe was ten years.

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Speaker 2: Okay, ten years would have made sense, I guess. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I don't understand prison in general, I guess, so

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Speaker 2: it's hard for me to wrap my head around. But

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Speaker 2: I'm glad she is facing consequences. She harmed a lot

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Speaker 2: of people. I thought that what the judge said was interesting.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember what he said or.

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Speaker 1: He said something about how like he knows that she

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Speaker 1: heard a lot of people, but he doesn't doubt that

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Speaker 1: she also was a under the influence of being her

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Speaker 1: and manipulated.

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Speaker 2: It is so hard in cases like these because like

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Speaker 2: you don't really know where the line is and you

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Speaker 2: just have to something has to be done about the

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Speaker 2: harm that they've caused, even if they were brainwashed, Like,

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Speaker 2: something must be done. They must see a consequence. So

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Speaker 2: that's interesting though, because the thing is most people don't

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Speaker 2: serve their full sentences anyway, right, so it probably.

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Speaker 1: Right she's going to really see the inside of anything. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's really interesting. Yeah it sucks, but well I'm glad

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Speaker 1: she's going to jail.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that's the upside. But yeah, I uh, well, we

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Speaker 2: fully support India and all the rest of her victims

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Speaker 2: and send love to y'all.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.

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Speaker 2: Also, last week, did I say that Alison Mack was

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Speaker 2: the one who is all up on my Twitter? Because

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Speaker 2: that's not what I meant. That was a I misspoke.

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Speaker 2: I met Nikki Klein. Oh, her wife, her wife, And

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Speaker 2: I didn't mean all up on my Twitter, but she

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Speaker 2: faved one of my tweets, and she paved one of

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Speaker 2: my mom's tweets, and she she just met her guy.

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Speaker 2: I knows tweets who she knows? Uh, Nikki Klein, not

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Speaker 2: Alison Mac That's weird. I need to stop just saying

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Speaker 2: stuff cool?

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Speaker 1: Cool?

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Speaker 2: What if I just stopped talking?

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Speaker 1: Not the podcast anyone wants to listen to. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: It sounds soothing to me.

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Speaker 1: Was breathing episode thirty eight.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, I fox with that.

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Speaker 1: All right?

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Speaker 2: Anyway, shut up, Lola. So let's begin our interview with

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Speaker 2: the wonderful, fascinating wit.

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Speaker 4: Shall we welcome White Richards to the show.

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Speaker 2: Nice to see you in person. Yes, our first in

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Speaker 2: person guest in like a year, two years or something, maybe,

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Speaker 2: is that true?

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Speaker 3: I'm really the first one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we have like our first few we did, but

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Speaker 2: then you know, we didn't come out for a long time,

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Speaker 2: so it's been a long time.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah after COVID, Yeah, you're first after COVID guests.

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Speaker 2: Very exciting.

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Speaker 3: I am happy to be back in that realm of

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Speaker 3: no masks and just kind of seeing people's faces.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's cool.

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Speaker 2: We're back, we're vaxed, we've got no masks. Doing great.

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Speaker 2: Your story is so fascinating, I mean.

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Speaker 1: Fast it is.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, there's so many layers to it. Okay,

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Speaker 2: the start us at the beginning is a good place

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Speaker 2: to start generally. So you're born in Pennsylvania, correct, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm one of six kids, number four.

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Speaker 3: I guess they always say that middle kids always looking

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Speaker 3: for his identity. But every summer we would go up

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Speaker 3: to Nantucket.

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Speaker 2: I love Nantucket, Oh do you?

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Speaker 3: Okay? So I love it. And I think if you

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Speaker 3: could put one word to describe Nantucket, besides it being

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Speaker 3: kind of waspy and preppy and all that stuff, is safe, right.

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Speaker 3: I mean it's a small little island. When you were

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Speaker 3: eight or ten years old, your parents have no problem

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Speaker 3: letting you run wild through the town because there's only

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Speaker 3: one town, right, So as a kid, you have vast independence.

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Speaker 3: And I just said, I mean for my family, would

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Speaker 3: which is I love my family. And we were a

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Speaker 3: large family. And my cousins who lived two doors down,

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Speaker 3: they had four kids, so I basically grew up in

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Speaker 3: a family at ten all like toe Head blondes. We

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Speaker 3: all ended up on Nantucket'd be Blonde at the yacht club,

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Speaker 3: and we did the sailing at the tennis and the

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Speaker 3: whole water skiing and so all of that was our

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Speaker 3: highlight of the summer and something that I always remember

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Speaker 3: as being the best times of the family, so to speak. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so at sixteen, when this individual puts a towel down

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Speaker 3: next to mine, and my life took a tangent that

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Speaker 3: I would have never imagined. I would not have thought

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Speaker 3: that would have happened on Nantucket.

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Speaker 2: Tell us about this guy, You're sixteen years old.

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Speaker 1: Do you think he saw you and was like, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to sit by him.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, because because he had kind of been

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Speaker 3: vetted by my peer group at that point. Okay, so

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Speaker 3: i'd heard of him. His real name was Freddie Myers.

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Speaker 3: When I met him, he was Frederick von Meers.

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Speaker 2: Ah Megan Vonalisabeth.

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Speaker 3: That's one of his friends at the time. Some we

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Speaker 3: are on the ferry ride over the Nantucket. He dropped

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Speaker 3: the Brooklyn Jewish background and became a wasp from Dutch

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Speaker 3: heritage and all sort of stuff. So I've tried to

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Speaker 3: psychoanalyze it with the limited information I've found, and I'm

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Speaker 3: actually finding more information now. But he was born I think,

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Speaker 3: to an unwed mom at sixteen. The mother had another daughter,

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Speaker 3: which I just found this out, and then I think

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Speaker 3: had two other daughters with another man. And he basically,

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Speaker 3: as far as I've been told, has worked very hard

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Speaker 3: to distance himself from that history that he grew up with.

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Speaker 3: He developed a new kind of accent, he created the

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Speaker 3: new name. You would call it kind of a attachment disorder,

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Speaker 3: I think is the proper term. Someone who's been wounded

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Speaker 3: by either abandonment or abuse at a young age and

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Speaker 3: is seeking out some sort of situation where they never

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Speaker 3: have to be hurt again, so they kind of foster

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Speaker 3: code of pena relationships. One of the interesting things about

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Speaker 3: my story is I basically got in on the ground

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Speaker 3: floor of a startup that.

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Speaker 5: Was It.

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Speaker 3: Wasn't a cult yet. You know, when I met him,

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Speaker 3: he was just spending his summers on Nantucket and he

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Speaker 3: had met my friends, and he had the reputation of

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Speaker 3: being kind of a throwback through the sixties. What year

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Speaker 3: is this like, nineteen seventy eight? Okay, because it's important,

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Speaker 3: Yet it's important to set the context of when these

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Speaker 3: stories happened. It's one of the things I've realized in

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Speaker 3: telling my story a few thousand times that if you

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Speaker 3: don't kind of set the world that was going on

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Speaker 3: at the time, and there's a real pushback against traditional

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Speaker 3: religions and people are looking in the new alternative approaches.

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Speaker 3: So this guy was into Eastern philosophy, kind of ancient civilizations, astrology.

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Speaker 3: He mainly focused on the hindu Vedas, which are amazing scriptures.

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Speaker 3: And I'm sure as you guys both know that most

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Speaker 3: of the information you initially get introduced to is valid,

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Speaker 3: and I think that's one of the hardest things to

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Speaker 3: discern as you go through trying to figure things out,

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Speaker 3: because a lot of the information you had was absolutely true,

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Speaker 3: and maybe the interpretation of it or certainly how the

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Speaker 3: behavior that you experienced in the group is vastly different

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Speaker 3: than what is maybe on the page, But at that point,

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Speaker 3: certainly early on, you don't necessarily figure that out, and

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Speaker 3: if you question it, you're being told because you're looking

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Speaker 3: at it wrong, not because that's actually what's happening. Basically,

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Speaker 3: I meet this guy, and my friends had said, yeah,

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Speaker 3: he was just someone who's kind of fun, but far

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Speaker 3: out and just not to really take with more than

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Speaker 3: a gran of salt. So he sits down next to me,

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Speaker 3: and he starts talking about Eastern philosophy and ying and

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Speaker 3: yang and making designs in the sand, and.

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Speaker 2: Oh, just from the beginning, he's like jumping.

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Speaker 3: Right in, right in, right in. And I remember because

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Speaker 3: I'm sixteen and he was probably mid thirties at that point,

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Speaker 3: and I really appreciated the fact that he was speaking

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Speaker 3: to me like an adult, and he was also making

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Speaker 3: the clear assumption that I understood what he was talking about,

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Speaker 3: which for the most part I didn't, but he would

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Speaker 3: frame it by saying, you're very smart too, you'll understand this,

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Speaker 3: which is a great manipulation arget right, because then you

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Speaker 3: feel really awkward to say, I don't know what you're

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Speaker 3: talking about, right.

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Speaker 1: I'm actually not really smart, not at all.

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Speaker 3: But he's very likable, very charismatic, as a lot of

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Speaker 3: these people are, of course, and it was not like

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Speaker 3: a like a full court press by any standard. It

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Speaker 3: was more about he was very social, and he invited

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Speaker 3: me to these parties that he would have now sixteen,

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Speaker 3: the drinking age in Nantucket was eighteen, so of course

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Speaker 3: I was already drinking, and I just saw this as

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Speaker 3: an opportunity to get free beer. Apparently he was having

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Speaker 3: these quite frequent parties at his place. It was on

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Speaker 3: India Street. I love you n Nantuck well, but it's

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Speaker 3: right in town. And I went there, you know, just occasionally,

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Speaker 3: because he would have these parties and I would get

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Speaker 3: free I could bring my friends and we would have beer,

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Speaker 3: and there was like people from sixteen to eighty. And

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Speaker 3: I've since come to know that he was known for

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Speaker 3: these parties. He was very much in this party mode,

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Speaker 3: and so when I met him, basically it was like

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Speaker 3: a narcissist with a entourage. That's what was going on.

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Speaker 2: So was he like a Gatsby kind of figure? Like

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Speaker 2: is it glamorous?

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Speaker 3: Well, he had been a model, so he's a good

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Speaker 3: looking guy. Now, this I did not know, but I

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Speaker 3: found out from his friends who knew him before I did,

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Speaker 3: because he'd been doing these parties for a long time

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Speaker 3: on Nantucket. And he would actually run the way he

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Speaker 3: had it set up. He would rent this house and

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Speaker 3: then he'd invite his friends and they would all have

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Speaker 3: to pay, and he would not have to pay for it,

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Speaker 3: so he would just have enough friends to come pay

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Speaker 3: for the house, and then he'd run it like a ship,

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Speaker 3: like you had to be up early, clean everything that

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Speaker 3: had happened from the night before, restock the bar, clean

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Speaker 3: the entire house, and get ready for the party. Because

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Speaker 3: Litty he was having a party almost every night.

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Speaker 2: So he's got like these party servants who are just.

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Speaker 3: Kind of well they're guests, but they're you know, they're

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Speaker 3: all the party mode. But if you were going to

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Speaker 3: be a guest, you had to kind of play by

400
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:09,080
Speaker 3: the rules that he and he would give them cards

401
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Speaker 3: that would have the address of the house and then

402
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Speaker 3: he'd give them the instructions. Only the beauties, only the bouties, wow,

403
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Speaker 3: and not their friends. Yeah.

404
00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:20,760
Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: So that was kind of his modus operendum. So so

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Speaker 3: that was the I met him when I was sixteen.

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Speaker 3: I would see him during the summers, and it was

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Speaker 3: never he had he had his ephemerist, which is the

409
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Speaker 3: thing that astrologers used, are going to read where you

410
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,040
Speaker 3: came from and did all that, and and so that

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Speaker 3: would be kind of his party trick. He'd say, O,

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Speaker 3: when's your birthday? And you kind of and then you'd

413
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Speaker 3: look in the effemeris and kind of do like a

414
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Speaker 3: quick horoscope on you, and that was kind of something

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Speaker 3: that a lot of people loved. And I remember, for

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Speaker 3: me specifically that he seemed to be doing that with

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Speaker 3: my friends and not doing it doing my chart, and

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Speaker 3: I felt really jilted at first, and really like, well,

419
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Speaker 3: on's he going to do mine? And I don't know

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Speaker 3: if that was a conscious.

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Speaker 2: Technique or not, right it sounds like it, but.

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Speaker 3: The way it played out was I just saw him

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Speaker 3: as an eccentric person I would see during the summer

424
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Speaker 3: and I never felt like a full court press from

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Speaker 3: him or any recruitment per se. It wasn't until I

426
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Speaker 3: got back. I studied for a year in England before

427
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Speaker 3: I decided to go to college.

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Speaker 2: Which was Princeton, which was Princeton pretty fancy.

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Speaker 3: Well, everyone in my family was going to very good school,

430
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Speaker 3: so it's just trying to keep up with the Joneses.

431
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Speaker 3: My brothers and sisters are all great students, and there's

432
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Speaker 3: just kind of something my parents put high expectations on,

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Speaker 3: so I didn't want to let them down. I loved Princeton,

434
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Speaker 3: but when he knew I was going to be in

435
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Speaker 3: Jersey and not that far from Manhattan, which was his home.

436
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Speaker 3: That's when he said, oh, well, you should come up

437
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,520
Speaker 3: and bring some friends. And at this point I didn't

438
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,399
Speaker 3: really know he had a full entourage. I met his

439
00:20:55,560 --> 00:21:00,240
Speaker 3: friends at these parties, but I didn't really know I

440
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:01,920
Speaker 3: went to New York to see him that he had

441
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,399
Speaker 3: literally this group that he would hang out with. And

442
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,040
Speaker 3: the big hook was we go to Studio fifty four.

443
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,440
Speaker 3: You know. So at this point, I'm like eighteen nineteen,

444
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:15,959
Speaker 3: and my perception at that time was I was working him. Now.

445
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 3: I knew he was very effeminate and gay, but he

446
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,240
Speaker 3: never was hitting on me, and so I never felt

447
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,080
Speaker 3: like that was happening. But I knew he kind of

448
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,399
Speaker 3: liked me in that sense, not like sexually, but just

449
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,159
Speaker 3: kind of found me appealing. And so I literally remember

450
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 3: having a very conscious thought pattern of like, oh, I

451
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 3: can kind of work this to my benefit my friends,

452
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 3: and we can get in Studio fifty four, which is

453
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 3: exactly how it worked out. I'd go up there for

454
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,920
Speaker 3: a couple nights and we'd go to studio for both nights,

455
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 3: and then.

456
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:45,800
Speaker 1: It's so fun.

457
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,359
Speaker 2: Wait, so for the kids, can you tell what Studio

458
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:49,960
Speaker 2: fifty four was?

459
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:54,919
Speaker 3: So Studio fifty four was the next level of a nightclub.

460
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,120
Speaker 3: I mean it was during the disco age, but walking

461
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:02,439
Speaker 3: in the studio, it was literally like it had a pulse.

462
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 3: I mean it was originally set up, I think, to

463
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,440
Speaker 3: be a theater, and so they had all these kind

464
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,199
Speaker 3: of theatrical lightings, but they would have special shows and

465
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 3: they have had dancers. I mean my first time walking in,

466
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,920
Speaker 3: I was greeted by this girl wearing nothing but Scotch tape.

467
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,720
Speaker 3: I mean she had like a Scotch little bra top

468
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,120
Speaker 3: and little panties, and I thought, my god, I never

469
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,920
Speaker 3: want to leave, Like this is just the best.

470
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 2: I mean, And the people who would go there, I

471
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,480
Speaker 2: mean I think of Andy Warhol first.

472
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,439
Speaker 3: And foremost met and got to know.

473
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,399
Speaker 2: I mean I'm looking at the list of people who

474
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:36,920
Speaker 2: would fature.

475
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Elton John.

476
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 3: I am at Elton John later. But I did see

477
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,160
Speaker 3: Liza Minelli there. I mean everybody was there.

478
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like the place to be.

479
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was the place. And I actually only caught

480
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 3: the second wave. The first wave in the late seventies

481
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,880
Speaker 3: was when it really kind of was off the hook.

482
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,199
Speaker 3: And then they got arrested for i mean, you know,

483
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 3: Letty gardge Cans full of cash, dashed ol and it

484
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 3: was I mean, I mean, drugs were just freely flowing.

485
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 3: I mean sometimes you see people literally having sex on

486
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 3: the dance floor. Sure, certainly in the rafters. And there

487
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,920
Speaker 3: was this one little rafters. Yeah. Well they had these

488
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 3: kind of kind of like very wide seats that were

489
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 3: kind of semi like sofas.

490
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're just asking for s.

491
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 3: It was all very convenient. And then they had a

492
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,119
Speaker 3: downstairs area where it was kind of the VIP celebrity

493
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 3: thing and and that's where people were just openly just

494
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,239
Speaker 3: doing lots of blow and things and and yeah. So

495
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,199
Speaker 3: I had several adventures in there. And coming from a

496
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,919
Speaker 3: very kind of conservative, waspy background, this was just like

497
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,880
Speaker 3: Alison Wonderlan, I'm walking through the looking glass and this

498
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 3: is this whole new thing. So that's why as it

499
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 3: played out, I was no way thinking I was getting

500
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 3: involved in the cult, because I mean, I'm you know,

501
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 3: I'm going to stud event for now. What we would do,

502
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 3: which was a little bit out of the ordinary. He

503
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 3: was always kind of targeting people, but he would do

504
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 3: it from the point of view of, oh, that girl's fabulous,

505
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 3: you should be with her. And he was great at

506
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 3: introducing to people, and then we would kind of make

507
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 3: half a dozen people that night, and then we'd go

508
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 3: back to the apartment and we would have high tea

509
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 3: as he would call it, at like six in the

510
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,880
Speaker 3: morning and talk about all these spiritual ideas.

511
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 1: That sounds like heaven.

512
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was great. And it wasn't like we were

513
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 3: taking drugs and it wasn't like we were heavily drinking.

514
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 3: It was much more this kind of spiritual thing, this

515
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 3: kind of thing that was evolving. Again, this is the

516
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,679
Speaker 3: early eighties, and this is really when all that stuff

517
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 3: like New Age movement was just starting to kind of birth.

518
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 3: He was like an early inventor with health food. Yeah,

519
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 3: I didn't even know what a health food store was

520
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 3: until I met Freddie. And I specifically call him Freddy

521
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 3: because he always wanted to be called Frederick, so I

522
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 3: know he would cringe. It's always fready. Now to me,

523
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,400
Speaker 3: it's very very fulfilling, and so yeah, that was really

524
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 3: what it was about at first. It's just opportunities to

525
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 3: go to New York hang out with some people that

526
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,440
Speaker 3: seemed to be in things that most of my friends

527
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 3: weren't really investigating. I was never a religious. I always

528
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 3: had a belief in God, but I never really felt

529
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,880
Speaker 3: devout in any way. But I had a very strong

530
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 3: sense of fairness, and I've thought there's a certain level

531
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 3: of decency that way people should respect and treat each other.

532
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 3: And a lot of the Eastern philosophy kind of resonated

533
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 3: with that. Because my Christian upbringing, my impression was going

534
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,200
Speaker 3: to church and hearing someone talk a lot about stuff

535
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 3: that I wasn't interested in, and then passing around this

536
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 3: thing with the money, and then your slate's been made

537
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 3: clean and then just come back next week do whatever

538
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 3: you want, but you know, slate clean, slate for the

539
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 3: week coming up. And I was like, that did not

540
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 3: work for me. I felt there should be a sense

541
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 3: of accountability. So when I got exposed to Eastern philosophy

542
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,640
Speaker 3: and karma and that sort of thing, I'm like, oh,

543
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 3: that makes a lot more sense to me that you

544
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 3: actually need to be accountable for your actions and for

545
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 3: each reaction there's an equal and opposite reaction, and that

546
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 3: really kind of resonated with me. And the idea of reincarnation.

547
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 3: You know that you don't have just one shot. So

548
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 3: someone's born into a wealthy family, someone's born on the street,

549
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 3: someone's crippled, someone's blind, and someone's a billionaire at birth.

550
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,439
Speaker 3: I'm like, well, that doesn't seem very fair. So the

551
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 3: fact that you have potentially multiple lifetimes that all really

552
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 3: resonated with me.

553
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 2: And when a message resonates like that and you don't

554
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 2: necessarily have exposure to other sources of a similar message,

555
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 2: it's hard to reject the person who is conveying that

556
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 2: message to you.

557
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And I try to relate it to people

558
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 3: that if you don't have a game plan and you

559
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,400
Speaker 3: feel like you should and listen, I'm sixteen then eighteen.

560
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 3: It's not like I needed to have one, but I

561
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 3: did feel like I should have one. Like from the

562
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 3: point of view that I seem to be Delta, pretty

563
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 3: winning hand. I was capable of school, as a good athlete,

564
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,640
Speaker 3: I made friends easily. My parents gave me a nice

565
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 3: genetic package that people seem to appreciate.

566
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: So, well, no, he's a handsome fellow, you guys, first

567
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: male supermodel.

568
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 3: Well, I just I tell people I can't take credit

569
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 3: for the costume. I just wear it. My parents get

570
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 3: all the credit. So all of that, a lot of

571
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 3: people would think, oh, well, you would be so secure then,

572
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 3: and I was massively insecure because I'm like, I had

573
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 3: no passion, nothing that I really got me terribly excited

574
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 3: about other than football. And I knew realistically that I

575
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 3: couldn't continue playing that for long. And that actually ended

576
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 3: up being the critical factor that got me more involved

577
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 3: with the group. Was I was playing football at Princeton

578
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 3: and doing it okay, not setting the world on fire,

579
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 3: but all my friends were football players, and that had

580
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 3: been so much a self identity. And then I started

581
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 3: really having problems with my shoulders and it looked like

582
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 3: I may have to either have an operation or consider stopping.

583
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,919
Speaker 3: And that's where I went up to New York to

584
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 3: see a shoulder specialist, because the trainer at Princeton he said,

585
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 3: I think you need to stop because my shoulders were

586
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 3: partially disocating. I had done gymnastics when I was younger,

587
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 3: and so i'd stretched the league and it's doing the rings.

588
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 3: And then I'd always played offense and been receiver or

589
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 3: running back, but they switched me to the defense, and

590
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 3: the tackling was just tearing my shoulders apart because my

591
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,719
Speaker 3: shoulders would just I could show you, so I can

592
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 3: just discocate my shoulders like that.

593
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm betting that's not good for both.

594
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 3: So I actually went up to New York to get

595
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 3: a second opinion. I found out that really they could operate,

596
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 3: but they couldn't guarantee me full mobility, meaning that I

597
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 3: wouldn't be able to necessarily reach my hand always over

598
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 3: my head. And I said, I can't play the position

599
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 3: if I can't if I can reach there. So I

600
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 3: went through really an identity crisis. And that was when

601
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 3: Freddy kind of said, well, this is why you should

602
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 3: come to New York and you should start modeling and acting,

603
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 3: and you've got these opportunities. And he had been a

604
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 3: model and he knew the guy who ran Forward Models,

605
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 3: and so that was kind of at my entry point.

606
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 3: Now the story's a little convolut that you don't have

607
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 3: to get into. So it didn't immediately work, but eventually

608
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 3: it did. And at first I was told I was

609
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 3: too blond, I was too big because I was playing

610
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 3: football and I never saw myself as a model. That's

611
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 3: not how I perceived myself to be. But eventually it

612
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,719
Speaker 3: did work out, and then it really took off. And

613
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 3: because it replaced football, it's kind of this decision of

614
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 3: a twenty one year old of like, well, if I

615
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 3: can't be a football star, maybe I'll just try to

616
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 3: be a star. Like that was literally where my ego

617
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 3: could kind of find some solace.

618
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 2: And it worked. You were modeling with the biggest supermodels

619
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 2: of the time, right, like, can you drop some names

620
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 2: for us?

621
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 3: I can, because I came in if you consider it

622
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 3: like an entry class like you were at university. I

623
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 3: came in with Cindy and Christy and Naomi and Claudia.

624
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: And Claudia subsessed, Wow, I'm a Naomi girl.

625
00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 2: Actually, Christy, I'm a Christie girls.

626
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 3: I met when she was fourteen at the Christmas party

627
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 3: and she was just like an alien genetic Marvel.

628
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: I'm like, this girl was so before which Christy is

629
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: it Turlington or yeah?

630
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 3: So Christy Turley then was my generation. Brinkley was like

631
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 3: the generation before me. I remember looking at Christy Brinkley

632
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 3: and like the Sports Illustrated you know, when I was

633
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 3: a teenager.

634
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

635
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,959
Speaker 3: And actually my second modeling job was with Kathy Ireland,

636
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 3: and I totally had a crush on to Kathy Ireland

637
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 3: literally was in awe and then she had this squeaky,

638
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 3: tiny little voice that I didn't have the heart to

639
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 3: tell my friends, like it was not the voice I expected.

640
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 3: She since corrected her voice, and good for her, but

641
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 3: it was really disappointing.

642
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 2: This kind of I find that all the time when

643
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 2: I meet like hot girls on Instagram in person, I'm like, whoa,

644
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 2: that's how you?

645
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 3: Yeah right. That was the point when I started to

646
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 3: come into New York a lot more to pursue the modeling,

647
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 3: and that's kind of when the hooks went in, and

648
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 3: that's where I started to really kind of be indoctrinated.

649
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: So at this point online I read that he was

650
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 1: from a star called Arcturist. Did you know this from

651
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: the start? No?

652
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah. I think that's an important part of the

653
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 3: story from the point of view that those type of

654
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 3: things don't come out like in the opening conversation. That's

655
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 3: not the pitch of right, because then you'd be like

656
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 3: this guy, yeah, you're crazy, yeah exactly. So that information

657
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 3: gets revealed as you move up the food chain. So,

658
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 3: because he was into astrology, the premise he would make,

659
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 3: which listen is not far fetched, was the idea that sure,

660
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 3: you incarnate here on Earth, but you also incarnate all

661
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 3: over the universe. Sure, Freddy said, the place that he

662
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 3: considered home just happened to be the spiritual center of

663
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 3: the universe.

664
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 2: Am I on Earth?

665
00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 3: So the idea was supposedly he came back to Earth

666
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 3: to find the fellow Auctorians. So the whole premise was

667
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 3: that back on Octurius, when we're there on one of

668
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 3: our lucky incarnations, we're at the spiritual center of the universe.

669
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 3: We all got into a huddle and looked at Earth

670
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 3: and said, oh, it's having all sorts of problems. We

671
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 3: got to go down there and help out. And the

672
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 3: idea was, all right, we're all going to kind of

673
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 3: sacrifice and go down and help out things at Earth. Oh,

674
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 3: it's going through this terrible period. And unfortunately none of

675
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 3: us are going to remember this conversation except for Freddie.

676
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 3: He's going to go back and find us and remind

677
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 3: us why we're really here.

678
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 5: Thank goodness, good good And so as outrageous as the

679
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 5: story as that sounds, because it was kind of the

680
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 5: common urban legend that was kind of going on in

681
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 5: the group at that point.

682
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 3: When it got revealed to me, all I wanted to

683
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 3: do is know whether I was Octurnan or not. So

684
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 3: that became this kind of carrot that was dangling will

685
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 3: I because at certain points he would finally turn to

686
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 3: someone and say, oh, yes, and you are actorian as well.

687
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 3: And that was a big day.

688
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 2: So when you say it was an urban legend in

689
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 2: the group, people were talking about it, it was like

690
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 2: a rumor, yeah planet.

691
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, But it was a star. It was a

692
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,239
Speaker 3: star where we were. We were light bodies, you know,

693
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 3: like like like you know, like who's so it's like

694
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 3: it's like leak the crystal. No, okay, well you're not

695
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 3: missing too much, but it's very expensive crystal. And he

696
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 3: would know about that because he was all into the

697
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 3: social register and that sort of thing, and he was

698
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 3: really in the high society. Again, going back to what

699
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 3: I said earlier, trying to distance himself from his original roots.

700
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 3: He presented this whole he knew duke, this person, duchess,

701
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 3: that one prince, that one prince did he apparently it's

702
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,239
Speaker 3: very hard for me to look back into now and

703
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 3: trust anything that came out of his mouth. But when

704
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 3: you reached the level of pathology like this guy had,

705
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 3: I don't think you can separate truth from fiction because

706
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 3: I think he loses touch. Oh for sure, Because one

707
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 3: of the most common questions I get all the time,

708
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 3: and I'm sure you guys get it from your stories.

709
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 3: It's like, oh, it was the cult leader in on

710
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:13,240
Speaker 3: the con so to speak.

711
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 1: I didn't really think he was enturian.

712
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I can only say I think like

713
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 3: a serial killer who starts to operate out of a

714
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 3: certain kind of pathology and gets better at it as

715
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 3: they do it. When you're a master manipulator in lying

716
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 3: becomes kind of the way that you reinvent yourself, I

717
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,280
Speaker 3: think you kind of lose track of it, and certainly,

718
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 3: as things continue to work on people, you start to

719
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 3: wonder maybe if.

720
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 2: I say it, it is true, right, I love that.

721
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 3: And I guess you can't get inside someone else's head.

722
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,879
Speaker 3: But certainly, living with him like I did for five years,

723
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 3: I didn't really catch him slipping up in that sense.

724
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 3: I certainly caught him doing plenty of things, Like there

725
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 3: was one time when he was trying to recruit my

726
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,919
Speaker 3: younger brother and I was on the phone with him

727
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 3: and my mother was He's dropping. At this point, my

728
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 3: mother had had identified that I'd been in a colt

729
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 3: and said this guy was dangerous and so I was

730
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 3: really pulling away from the family at that point, but

731
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,760
Speaker 3: she was easdropping and she confronted him on the phone.

732
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 3: She's like, get off the phone. I can't believe you're talking.

733
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,839
Speaker 3: And he who for years have been saying You've got

734
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 3: to confront your mother. She's so evil on this and

735
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:23,280
Speaker 3: that he freaks out and scattered. Yeah, just Liddy panics

736
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 3: and hands me the phone and goes, oh, she's so awful.

737
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 3: And I remember seeing him freak out and just suppressing

738
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 3: that because that didn't fit in the paradigm of the

739
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 3: guy who had everything figured out, was telling me what

740
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 3: to do all the time.

741
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

742
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 3: So there are plenty of instances like that that I

743
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 3: can go back to and see the signs. But at

744
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 3: the time I was so enthralled, and I'm working on

745
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 3: certain projects retelling this story, and I've got certain footage.

746
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 3: We had a cable access show which was.

747
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: Saying I would love to see it.

748
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and it's like twenty six hours of it. Wow,

749
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,839
Speaker 3: where there were even more. But when I went back

750
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 3: and looked at this footage and thinking, know, this is

751
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:04,919
Speaker 3: going to be a great way to kind of show

752
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 3: his spiel, so to speak. The most disarming and upsetting

753
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,359
Speaker 3: thing for me was seeing him and just going, man,

754
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 3: I wish he was better because I just thought he

755
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 3: was so all about everything and I just see how

756
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 3: full of shitty is now, Like it's so obvious, you.

757
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 2: Know my mom, right, Yeah, our former cult leader, Prophet Guy.

758
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 2: He's on YouTube, which we've mentioned a few times on

759
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 2: the show. And it is disappointing. You're like, damn, you

760
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 2: are just crazy, right, How are you so charismatic? To

761
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 2: me is yeah, no, it.

762
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 3: Really really really is fascinating to kind of go through that,

763
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,760
Speaker 3: and I remember just thinking I just wish he was better.

764
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,399
Speaker 3: Then they don't look so naive, but we all are.

765
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:50,800
Speaker 3: And that's the thing. I mean. I had a girlfriend

766
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 3: that one time told me you just don't know until

767
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 3: you know, and at that time I'm like, oh, what

768
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 3: the fuck does that mean? But it's a very profound

769
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 3: statement from the point of view that once you figure

770
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,800
Speaker 3: something out, very often we want to reverse engineer and

771
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 3: they say, oh, I should figured it out sooner, and

772
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 3: just beat ourselves up. But the truth is you don't

773
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:11,359
Speaker 3: figure it out, that you figure it out, and once

774
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 3: you do know something, then you can operate with a

775
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 3: new lens, but until you get there, you can't beat

776
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,800
Speaker 3: yourself up for not kind of connecting the dots.

777
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 2: We only have the information that we have. And before

778
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 2: we were recording, you were referring to this relationship with

779
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 2: a cult leader or a culture groups as a cultic

780
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 2: relationship that you're in and saying how all of us

781
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,879
Speaker 2: can be in cultic relationships. Often they're just one on one.

782
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 2: I think the idea that you suppress information that doesn't

783
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,479
Speaker 2: fit in with your idea of a person is something

784
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 2: that we all do all of the time, every time

785
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 2: we are dating somebody new and keeping our rose colored

786
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 2: glasses on because we don't want to believe that we

787
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 2: couldn't be compatible.

788
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's a fascinating thing. Is the way I

789
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:01,280
Speaker 3: do like to frame it is to just say I

790
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 3: had a cultured relationship with a group, because I've done

791
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,839
Speaker 3: the cult bomb many times in social situations like, wow,

792
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 3: I was in a cult for twenty years and people

793
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 3: like what And I initially I did that a because

794
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 3: I wanted to be transparent. It's kind of like an

795
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 3: alcoholic good finally wants to take ownership of this part

796
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 3: of their lives, you know, So that was part of it.

797
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 3: But then I also kind of got off on the

798
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 3: shock value of that, and I recognized that that was

799
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 3: not really helping the cause, so to speak, and it

800
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 3: wasn't reflecting well on me because I was kind of

801
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 3: misrepresenting it just to kind of throw someone off their balance.

802
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 3: So I felt that I was being so bold and

803
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:39,439
Speaker 3: brazen to be so open, and that's really I owned

804
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 3: my story and I going to tell you, and I

805
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 3: mean literally I would get into a cab and in

806
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 3: New York and that's how I need to go to

807
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 3: forty second and third, did I tell you was in

808
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 3: a cult? Yeah? No, really twenty years.

809
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,319
Speaker 1: Minus twenty years.

810
00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 3: I mean it was like that. It was this compulsion

811
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:02,399
Speaker 3: which you have with a lot of addicts when they

812
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 3: like they when you finally come clean. Because I had

813
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 3: been so dishonest to so many people for so many years,

814
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 3: I just wanted to be honest. Yeah, But I learned

815
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 3: that that approach was not very effective, because ultimately it

816
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 3: was important for me to own this part of my

817
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 3: life but also do it in a way where initially

818
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 3: my impulse was I don't want anyone to be uncomfortable

819
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 3: or afraid to ask me about it because I don't

820
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 3: want to be defined by this. But I want you

821
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:29,359
Speaker 3: to be okay to talk about it because I don't

822
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 3: want you to feel uncomfortable that you're things I can't right,

823
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,879
Speaker 3: And I'd rather you hear about it from my mouth

824
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,720
Speaker 3: rather than going and googling my name later and going,

825
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,280
Speaker 3: what's this that you were involved?

826
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 6: Right?

827
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 3: So I had learned Yeah.

828
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I almost think it's a right of passage to

829
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 2: start saying it, like really bluntly like that. The people

830
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:50,879
Speaker 2: I can think of who are doing that the most

831
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 2: frequently on the people who are sort of recently come

832
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 2: to terms with their experience.

833
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 3: You know, that's exactly right. And so so I find

834
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 3: by framing it as a cultured relationship, people are more

835
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 3: like curious, like, well what does that mean because they

836
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 3: haven't heard it kind of referred to in those terms.

837
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 3: And a cultic relationship, by clinical terms, is any relationship

838
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 3: with the person that you're seeking love and approval from

839
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 3: is in some way controlling and abusing you because an essence,

840
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 3: you've kind of put them in a position of power

841
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 3: or authority by this desire to have their approval, and

842
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,800
Speaker 3: so that can be a parent. That can be a brother,

843
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 3: a sister, a coach, a boss, a lover. That is

844
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 3: one of the more common relationships we have, but we

845
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 3: don't identify it as that. We don't realize how traumatic

846
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 3: that relationship is. We usually are pretty effective at finding

847
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 3: our way out of that relationship at some point, but

848
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 3: then we write it off as a bad relationship and

849
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 3: really don't deal with the trauma, and then we kind

850
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 3: of start a cycle of finding similar relationships because we

851
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 3: don't realize we've had this trauma and we're kind of

852
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 3: re enacting that situation to try to learn from it.

853
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 3: And this is you know, what you learn in therapy,

854
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 3: like becoming conscious of unconscious patterns, and so that's why

855
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 3: a situation like mine or what you guys went through,

856
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 3: which is a more extreme version, because there's a group element,

857
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 3: there's peer pressure, there's not just the stakes of one person.

858
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 3: Our group was a doomsday cult, so the fate of

859
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 3: the world was lying in balance, and so all of

860
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:22,800
Speaker 3: this is like that experience on steroids, but the actual

861
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:26,839
Speaker 3: dynamics at play are identical. And what I found as

862
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 3: I became more effective at communicating my story and not

863
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 3: trying to just shock everybody instead of, like I said,

864
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 3: my initial impulse was, I just wanted to be able

865
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 3: to own this part of my life and be able

866
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 3: to be okay with people talking about it so they

867
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 3: don't have to feel uncomfortable around me. But what I

868
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 3: didn't expect and what the real silver lining was, as

869
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 3: I got better at communicating my story like any good story,

870
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,359
Speaker 3: instead of you listening to the story, I'm telling, really

871
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 3: great story resonates with someone in their own lives are going,

872
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, reminds me of And I kept that

873
00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 3: that's a point, and I kept having people going, oh

874
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 3: my god, this sounds like when the relationship behy with

875
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 3: my boss or my dad or my mom. And that's

876
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 3: when I said, oh my god, this really is a

877
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 3: universal tale. And that's where I felt even more important

878
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,879
Speaker 3: to kind of convey this story, because if we don't

879
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 3: all start basically using the same language and the same

880
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,919
Speaker 3: nomenclature to describe these experiences we're having, then no one's

881
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 3: really realizing we've got so much more common ground and

882
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 3: so much more healing than it needs to take place,

883
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 3: because we're not identifying the problem. You know, if you

884
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 3: don't have the diagnosis, you can't really get.

885
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 2: The medicine speaking some truth.

886
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 3: I've got twenty years of talking about this, so it's like,

887
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 3: hopefully I've made a few strides here and there. But

888
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 3: it's really been interesting because, like when COVID happened to me,

889
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 3: it was a very cultic reaction that was going on

890
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 3: in the world. Like when I walked out during the

891
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 3: two weeks to flatten the curve, I walked out the

892
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 3: side walk, looked down the sidewalk and saw someone like

893
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 3: a block and a half away who recognized I was

894
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 3: a human, freaked out and ran through the side of

895
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 3: the street. I'm like, Okay, this is not the zombie apocalypse, right,

896
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 3: Like I was preparing for the zombie apocalypse, I thought

897
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 3: the whole thing was so and this crazy experience of

898
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 3: mine gave me this lens of what it's like to

899
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 3: live in fear all the time. So I immediately said,

900
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 3: that person's been indoctrinated. You don't get there on your

901
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 3: own thinking like that. You get indoctrinated and be that terrified.

902
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 3: Two weeks into this thing, I'm like, this is bad.

903
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 3: And from that lens going forward, I just watched everyone

904
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 3: gets sucked into this thing where I'm like, man, the

905
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 3: mental health fallout from this is going to be astronomical,

906
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 3: the PTSD. I don't think people realize how traumatized they've been.

907
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 1: That's what I was going to ask you. I mean

908
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 1: you expected the apocalypse at any moment, which is kind

909
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: of no. Yeah, It's like when we've talked about this before,

910
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 1: but when I would go to a movie when I

911
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 1: was younger, I'd be like, can I go to a movie?

912
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: And my parents are like, is that where you want

913
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: to be when Jesus comes back? And I'd be shit, no,

914
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 1: But you know you always thought that, like it's lunchtime,

915
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: will Jesus come back before I finish eating?

916
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 3: Like?

917
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 1: Was that what you were living under?

918
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 3: Yeah? Because Freddie was in all in these prophecies, of

919
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 3: which they were.

920
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 2: All wrong but shocking.

921
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it was all kind of pointing towards the

922
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 3: end of the millennium.

923
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 2: So you guys believed that, correct me if I'm getting

924
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 2: this wrong, that essentially aliens from the Star would come

925
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 2: at the end of the world and pick you up.

926
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's a great question and I should

927
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 3: have the answer, you know, I can tell you. All

928
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 3: he referenced was the space people did. I'd ever really ask, well,

929
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 3: are they the good space people or no, just like,

930
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 3: oh my god, Star Wars is coming to life. Space

931
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,280
Speaker 3: beople are out there, this is us. And he would

932
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 3: refer to it sometimes like the Ashtar Command. There's some

933
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,320
Speaker 3: book written about that or something, the Intergalactic Fleet or

934
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 3: some sort of thing. So I can just tell you

935
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 3: because I was so caught up in it and so

936
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 3: excited by that sci fi aspect of it, and no

937
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 3: one was asking those questions. I mean, even when we

938
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 3: bought property down in North Carolina where it was going

939
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 3: to be one of the safe places as the storms

940
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 3: were all going to come in and as the world

941
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 3: is going to be moving towards this grand apocalyptic event

942
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 3: in the western hills and mountains of the Appalachians. Western

943
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 3: North Carolina was going to become beachfront property. So we

944
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 3: had this mountain piece that we were buying and I

945
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 3: remember looking at it and Freddy's looking at the top.

946
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 3: He's like, Yeah, we're gonna build the platforms up there

947
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 3: for the ships to land. And I'm like, yeah, that's

948
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 3: gonna be awesome. And I'm like, now, if I was

949
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 3: thinking like a normal person, like what we're going to

950
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 3: build like plywood platforms for some metallic spaceship. Like, what

951
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:43,240
Speaker 3: is he fucking talking about?

952
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 1: Right?

953
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 3: But I'm like, oh, yeah, it's gonna be all right

954
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 3: there on the top of the mountain.

955
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:48,919
Speaker 1: So are you the one buying all of this? Sorry?

956
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 3: No, I mean I was largely financing all of it.

957
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 3: In another life, I was a very successful model, right,

958
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 3: So that was all going on. That's where my story

959
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 3: I think captures a lot of people's interests because I

960
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 3: really lived a double life. You know, it's not probably

961
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,879
Speaker 3: unlike the tom cruises out there, you know, of where

962
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 3: you you know, you kind of have a very public

963
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 3: image when that, people would think, oh god, I'd love

964
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 3: to have that life, And yet my every day is

965
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 3: being controlled in some fashion. I had to call in,

966
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 3: I had to check in and kind of spend doctor

967
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,359
Speaker 3: the way the day went. Because you know, people always think, well, god,

968
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,320
Speaker 3: if you were out all the time, you know, that

969
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 3: must have been awesome. And one of the favorite questions is, oh,

970
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 3: why didn't you just leave? Yeah, good question, but that's

971
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 3: that's a question that really informs you that the person

972
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 3: doesn't know what they're talking about. Yeah, And using the

973
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,839
Speaker 3: word just really makes it bad. I try to tell

974
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 3: people I said, when you asked that question, it's kind

975
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 3: of like if I came to you and said, you know,

976
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 3: twenty one I was raped and you turned to me

977
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 3: and said, what were you wearing that night, which, by the.

978
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 2: Way, many people have said similar things to me, like

979
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 2: people just don't understand the nuances of power dynamics.

980
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 3: They really they don't. And I don't fault them because

981
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 3: it's a defense mechanism. I mean, there were times I

982
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 3: took it the heart and it's like what But it's

983
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 3: the same sort of thing. Like during my early conversations

984
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 3: of dropping the cult Baham, you know, I'd have people going, well,

985
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:17,879
Speaker 3: you know, I would never be involved in a cult,

986
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 3: and they would have that or they would just very

987
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 3: innocently look at me and say, so, what was so

988
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 3: weak about you? They got you involved right, right right.

989
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 3: And again it's it's a defense mechanism because what they're

990
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 3: wanting to say to themselves and have me validate, is oh,

991
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 3: that's terrible that happened to you, But just reassure me

992
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 3: that won't happen to me exactly. And of course the

993
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 3: whole point of me having the conversation is not only

994
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 3: could it happen to you, it probably already has happened

995
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:45,800
Speaker 3: to you and you just haven't identified it. Now. You

996
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:47,919
Speaker 3: probably didn't go through what I went through when I'm saying,

997
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,840
Speaker 3: but you have had relationship and power dynamous like this

998
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 3: that you've experienced, and you've probably been deeply wounded and

999
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 3: just not really understood.

1000
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 2: It, right or they're on the other side and they're

1001
00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,760
Speaker 2: wounding everyone right right exactly.

1002
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 3: So it's a really interesting kind of thing the way

1003
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:04,879
Speaker 3: it's played out for me in this way, and when

1004
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 3: it came down to this whole space thing for me,

1005
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 3: the way you know, Freddy would present it, it's like,

1006
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 3: oh yeah, the space people are going to come down,

1007
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 3: and he's the only one talking to them, of course,

1008
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 3: but they had the rejuvenation machines or were they going

1009
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:18,280
Speaker 3: to lift us out? The planet's going to we believe

1010
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 3: in this thing called the poll shift, which is basically like,

1011
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 3: oh yeah, Edgar Casey, he was basically plagiarizing EDG. Casey

1012
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 3: and like ninety nine percent of the population get wiped out.

1013
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 3: There'll be a few safe places, but we were going

1014
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 3: to lift it out rejuvenated, you know, schooled and come

1015
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 3: back and basically make it heaven on Earth, so to speak.

1016
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 3: One of the things that's kind of hilarious is Freddy

1017
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 3: was really into being tan, and so in the eighties,

1018
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 3: all these tanning machines are going on, we were all

1019
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:44,280
Speaker 3: just constantly tanned.

1020
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: A picture of them. I barely, yeah, I almost had no.

1021
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 3: Features herma tan and I was modeling, which is fine

1022
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 3: to be tanned, but but I used to have friends

1023
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 3: say like, are you sure you're not going to be

1024
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 3: like damaging your skins. I was like blasting my face constantly,

1025
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 3: and in my mind, I was thinking, Man, I'm going

1026
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 3: to be in the rejuvenation chamber two years. It's like,

1027
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 3: I don't have to worry about that, you guys, that

1028
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 3: is not an issue. Not an issue for me. Yea.

1029
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 3: I traveled constantly. I was on the road probably three

1030
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 3: hundred days a year for ten years running. And I

1031
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 3: would get on a plane and I'd immediately think, like,

1032
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:21,800
Speaker 3: I wish I could tell if on the plane that

1033
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 3: this is going to be a safe flight because I've

1034
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 3: got a very important role to play on this planet

1035
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 3: and they're all safe. Wow.

1036
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:30,840
Speaker 1: Wow.

1037
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 3: That was the kind of mental person I was in,

1038
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,719
Speaker 3: you know, just thinking that I had this grand role,

1039
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 3: and of course you know, it's just all part of

1040
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 3: that magical thinking and all that stuff that we really

1041
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 3: get caught up. And I tell people all the time,

1042
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 3: if I can prove something in the lab, people like,

1043
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 3: you know what. But if I tell you all right,

1044
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 3: this thing only works if you believe in it, people

1045
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 3: are like, oh, I'm in, I'm in now, I want

1046
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:57,479
Speaker 3: to know tell me how.

1047
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 2: It works, which is fucked up because that is true

1048
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:03,920
Speaker 2: about out certain things. When it comes to placebos, we're

1049
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 2: taught that with Speaker Bell, remember, like you can't see

1050
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 2: her unless you believe. I mean the frosting in Hook

1051
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 2: does an even remember this scene, yes, here where they're

1052
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 2: throwing frosted like you can't see it to believe.

1053
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 1: I mean, there are so many fairy tales that were like,

1054
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 1: you can't see it unless you believe in it.

1055
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:24,399
Speaker 2: That's right, And you're like, okay, the nothingness and never

1056
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:24,919
Speaker 2: ending story.

1057
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean so much of well, I mean

1058
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,320
Speaker 3: it is right. You know, faith is a very powerful

1059
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:32,839
Speaker 3: mechanism and yeah, you know, a power used for good

1060
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 3: or bad. Right, That Hook's in our psyche much more

1061
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 3: I think than anything else.

1062
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, evidence is boring. Yeah, well, we don't need that.

1063
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 3: And now apparently the aliens are here and I'll live

1064
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:43,760
Speaker 3: youre in hearing that lately.

1065
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 2: In three days we're supposed to get all the afformation.

1066
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 1: Maybe the was right, I mean, I mean I think

1067
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 1: that there's some shit, but although.

1068
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 2: Although didn't they say that, it's like not, actually, there's

1069
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 2: no evidence really of anything.

1070
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 1: Of course there's not.

1071
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,320
Speaker 3: I watched Joe Rogan. Joe Rogan's totally into it.

1072
00:50:57,480 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 2: I know, I've listened to those episodes and he's like

1073
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:00,479
Speaker 2: that of these.

1074
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 3: Guys like, oh it the studio Area fifty one. I

1075
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 3: worked on the anti gravity machine studio I believe, Yeah, studios,

1076
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly, yeah, the Studio fifty one. Yeah yeah. So,

1077
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 3: I mean, who knows. It's a it's but my question

1078
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 3: if any of that does come out, it's like why now.

1079
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, that would be my question, because they're manipulating

1080
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 1: us in a different way now exactly. You know, they're real,

1081
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 1: we probably do this.

1082
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 2: It's like okay, or they're just dumb and haven't been coordinating. Well,

1083
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1084
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 3: Well, clearly they're not aggressive. Otherwise we've been wiped out

1085
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 3: by now so oh.

1086
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 2: You mean, why now the aliens. I was thinking, why

1087
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:36,720
Speaker 2: now the government?

1088
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 3: Oh no, yeah, yeah, well I know, I say, why

1089
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 3: now the government telling us about the aliens? I think

1090
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:43,760
Speaker 3: the aliens probably have some plan that whatever.

1091
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:44,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they're cool.

1092
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 3: I don't think they're trying to wipe us out.

1093
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:46,359
Speaker 1: Now.

1094
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 2: I hope our audience understands that we are not just

1095
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:51,359
Speaker 2: talking about aliens. Willy nilly. There are documents that are

1096
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 2: being released by the.

1097
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 3: Pentagon by the Yeah right now do Pentagon UFOs and

1098
00:51:57,719 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 3: a lot.

1099
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 1: Israli, a head of defense, said that they have stop

1100
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 1: nuclear war three times.

1101
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 2: Excuse me?

1102
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Apparently the ships all come around like during

1103
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 3: the nuclear plants or where the foreheads are and they

1104
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 3: shut things down.

1105
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 2: Well that's nice.

1106
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:15,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, so they're looking out for it, thank god. I

1107
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 3: doubt they're Auctorian.

1108
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 2: Though they're not.

1109
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 1: I checked it. Were the other people in this group

1110
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 1: with you equally like charismatic and good.

1111
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 3: Looking and well if you think of like a profile

1112
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 3: that we would try to target, yes, but that doesn't

1113
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 3: mean you wouldn't take someone who was an eager beaver

1114
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 3: wanting to be got it. But it was like a

1115
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:39,320
Speaker 3: branding mechanism. The idea was that you've gone to a

1116
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 3: good school. You are well presented, well spoken, everything that

1117
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 3: Freddie had wanted to be. This has been a really

1118
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 3: big missing piece for me getting more information about his background.

1119
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 3: Not that I have to figure out his backstory, but

1120
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:53,239
Speaker 3: it is fascinating. It is interesting to say, like, how

1121
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 3: did that come about?

1122
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:54,439
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1123
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 2: Totally, totally. It all reminds me a little bit of

1124
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,400
Speaker 2: Will Allen's story. Are you familiar with him the documentary?

1125
00:52:59,440 --> 00:52:59,839
Speaker 2: Holy hell?

1126
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 3: You should like, Oh, yeah, no, I do. I have

1127
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 3: seen HOLLI how they're all very tan? They actually beautiful. Actually,

1128
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 3: when I watched it, I'm like, oh my god, he

1129
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:07,240
Speaker 3: looks a lot like Freddy.

1130
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: Really.

1131
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, was Freddy getting surgery too?

1132
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 3: Oh? Five facelifts by the time Wow died. Yeah, he

1133
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 3: looked like a freak.

1134
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 1: How old was he when he died mid the late

1135
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 1: forties and he died of aids?

1136
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1137
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, quick insert here. One question I meant to ask

1138
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 2: while we were doing the interview was how the group

1139
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 2: stayed together after the leader died, And basically the answer

1140
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 2: is that eventually a new leader emerged and he wasn't

1141
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 2: as savvy as the original guy, Freddy, but everyone was

1142
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 2: so indoctrinated already that he knew how to push the

1143
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:38,320
Speaker 2: right buttons and invoke that trauma.

1144
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 3: I've reconnected with some of the ex members and know

1145
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 3: it because I escaped in nineteen ninety nine. I figured

1146
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 3: out it was a cult around two thousand and one.

1147
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:51,319
Speaker 3: So that's a whole nother story because I didn't leave

1148
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 3: figuring out what it was. I figured it out later

1149
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 3: after going through his PTSD. But then I kind of

1150
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 3: went on the attack. I had all this suppressed anger

1151
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,400
Speaker 3: and resentment. I know, money, and they were living in

1152
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 3: a house that I had bought.

1153
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 1: There had business and I read I read you who

1154
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: gave them like four point five million dollars?

1155
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:08,720
Speaker 2: Oh my god?

1156
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:11,400
Speaker 3: And so yeah, he's barely making ends meet. And I

1157
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 3: was living at Fabio's, which is.

1158
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 2: A hilarious part of the Fabio Everyone.

1159
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:17,479
Speaker 1: Yes, though he helped you, Yeah, when you were leaving,

1160
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 1: you you remembered he said something to Bobby is just.

1161
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 3: Such a great guy. And what he's revealed to me

1162
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 3: looking back in that time, like I arrived and he

1163
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 3: knew something really bad had happened, and so he being

1164
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 3: very kind of aware like he is, he goes sometimes

1165
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 3: you know, that it's not in your place to push someone.

1166
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 3: Just let them have space, let them feel safe, and

1167
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 3: when it's time and ready, they'll come and talk to me.

1168
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 3: And so ially lived at his place for a year.

1169
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:49,680
Speaker 3: He never once asked me why I was there. He

1170
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 3: never asked me wow. He just completely let me incubate.

1171
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 3: And that's how I kind of worked to the PTSD

1172
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:58,800
Speaker 3: and eventually started to figure out what had happened.

1173
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:03,399
Speaker 2: Because a god, we already thought he was a guy.

1174
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 3: A god, Oh yeah, he's crazy smart. Let's go engineer.

1175
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 3: And he is. And he's my stockbroker. He knows stocks,

1176
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:13,320
Speaker 3: you know. I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, Fabia is amazing.

1177
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 2: Is he single? He is?

1178
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 1: Oh interesting, We just say Lola's dating a stockbroker.

1179
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

1180
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 1: There you go.

1181
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 2: Can you talk about how you left?

1182
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:30,799
Speaker 3: Yeah? And I wish I could tell you. I woke

1183
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:33,160
Speaker 3: up one night in the middle of the night and said,

1184
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 3: oh my god, I think this is really dangerous. It

1185
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 3: might be a cult. I should get the hell out

1186
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 3: of here. Nothing even close. So it was Midsummer of

1187
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:43,279
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety nine, two thousands, when the ship's supposed to

1188
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 3: hit the fan, right, I'm still traveling around all over

1189
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 3: Europe constantly. So I'm in London, Paris, Milan, and I'm

1190
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:53,360
Speaker 3: looking around and like there's no storms going on, no

1191
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:59,240
Speaker 3: government's collapsing, no economies crashing. So I'm like, it's nothing else.

1192
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:02,799
Speaker 3: The timeline is raw in some way. My critical thinking

1193
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 3: is starting to come back slightly right and then very boldly,

1194
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 3: and you could say fortunately or unfortunately. I decided to

1195
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:14,240
Speaker 3: voice some of those concerns, and of course I got crushed,

1196
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,240
Speaker 3: kind of like being a blasphemer. So then it became

1197
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 3: kind of the modus operendum to save me from myself.

1198
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,480
Speaker 3: So it was dictated that I would have to move

1199
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 3: down to our compound that we had down in North Carolina,

1200
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:31,280
Speaker 3: and they started shaving my head so I couldn't model.

1201
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:34,040
Speaker 3: I had to be the first one up, the last

1202
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:37,879
Speaker 3: one to bed any type of slavelike labor to teach

1203
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 3: me humility or anything. Anyone they didn't want to do

1204
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 3: I had to do.

1205
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 2: They're like such haters.

1206
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 3: When Freddy was alive, he treated me with kit clubs

1207
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 3: and really got me into that generosity mode, like as

1208
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 3: long as you keep giving them money, you get a

1209
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:54,319
Speaker 3: little freedom here. And so because of those years when

1210
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 3: Freddy was alive, I got kind of preferential treatment. So

1211
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 3: there's a lot of pent up resentment, jealousy, and the

1212
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 3: next ten years was much rougher for me, and it

1213
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 3: culminated with this last period of where they were really

1214
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:09,720
Speaker 3: coming after me because I was starting to poke holes

1215
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 3: in this idea that our great fearless leader might be

1216
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 3: fucking wrong, you know, And so that made life very

1217
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 3: rough for me. And I was literally and figuratively living

1218
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 3: in the doghouse because we had renovated this house and

1219
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 3: we had built a garage where we kept the dogs

1220
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 3: and we had converted into an office. So I slept

1221
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 3: up there with the dogs while they were on But

1222
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 3: that's how I was able to escape because we had

1223
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 3: this whole phone system and whenever I pick up the

1224
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 3: phone in the office, everyone would know and they'd say

1225
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 3: who you're on the phone with. And so when I

1226
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:44,920
Speaker 3: had to escape, if I used the fax phone, it

1227
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 3: didn't set off, and so I was able to actually

1228
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 3: escape that way.

1229
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 1: How'd you escape? What'd you fat?

1230
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:52,280
Speaker 3: Well? I just well, no, I got on the phone

1231
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 3: and I called a cab. It took me three attempts

1232
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 3: to get away, like they caught me twice, but the

1233
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 3: third time my driving privilege has been taken away because

1234
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 3: once I'd driven myself to the airport and then they

1235
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 3: caught me. And so I just had a cab that

1236
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 3: was about a mile and a half down the hill

1237
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 3: that was meeting me at like two thirty in the morning,

1238
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:12,800
Speaker 3: and I had to like stealthily go out like a

1239
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 3: prison break and not wake the dogs, hope that no

1240
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 3: one would hear me, and then bolt and I just went,

1241
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 3: you know, back there six weeks ago, to that same

1242
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 3: spot and that you know, they talk about how trauma

1243
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:26,480
Speaker 3: stays in the body, and yeah, I've done a decent

1244
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:28,400
Speaker 3: amount of work on this, you know, I talked about

1245
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 3: a lot. But when I stepped right back on the

1246
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 3: I tell you the he B Gv's, I felt it

1247
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 3: was like I was right back there. So trauma's very

1248
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:40,520
Speaker 3: very real. But you know, each time I went back,

1249
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:43,040
Speaker 3: it got better, and it's just always better to face

1250
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:46,040
Speaker 3: your demons and avoid them. But it was really that

1251
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 3: visceral feeling of that I remember just looking down that

1252
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 3: hill and running like thinking they're behind me, because I'd

1253
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 3: even forgotten it's on a man made lake and there's

1254
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 3: this damn and I remember driving, and I'm like, I

1255
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 3: don't even remember that, damn, Like it's all so fuzzy

1256
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:03,840
Speaker 3: because I think the trauma was so intense that I

1257
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:06,400
Speaker 3: don't have strong memories as I would have thought I

1258
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:08,920
Speaker 3: would have. But then when I was coming back from

1259
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 3: being up there and I saw it coming from that

1260
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:14,920
Speaker 3: point of view, the way I actually had escaped, I'm like,

1261
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:18,000
Speaker 3: oh God, I do remember this now because it's completely

1262
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:20,320
Speaker 3: out in the open, and I thought, I am so exposed.

1263
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 3: There's nothing to hide, no trees, nothing, And I bolted

1264
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 3: across that bridge that high speed because I was like,

1265
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 3: there's no way I'm coming back this time. So it

1266
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 3: was after that that I went into kind of the PTSD.

1267
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:33,520
Speaker 3: I hung at Fabio's.

1268
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 2: Another quick insert here. So one more thing I wondered

1269
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:39,320
Speaker 2: after we did the interview was what the previous escape

1270
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:41,919
Speaker 2: attempts were like. So here's what Hoyt told me after

1271
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 2: we spoke the first time. So basically, his two failed

1272
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 2: attempts involved him getting caught in his New York apartment.

1273
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:49,720
Speaker 2: So on his first break, he was living in La

1274
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 2: at Fabio's, but was still in communication with a group

1275
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:54,680
Speaker 2: and he must have like slipped up somehow and made

1276
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:56,600
Speaker 2: the group think that he'd be passing through New York

1277
00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 2: for a modeling gig, and a couple of the guys

1278
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:01,440
Speaker 2: caught him in there. They didn't threaten for us, but

1279
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:03,640
Speaker 2: he was so freaked out about being caught that he

1280
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:06,360
Speaker 2: was easily convinced that he wasn't supposed to get away.

1281
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:08,800
Speaker 2: And then that's when he agreed in quotes to go

1282
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:11,920
Speaker 2: to North Carolina to become the living housekeeper. So the

1283
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:14,680
Speaker 2: second time he got caught, he had fled North Carolina

1284
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 2: in the middle of the night and caught a flight

1285
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:19,000
Speaker 2: to New York, and he figured they'd never think he

1286
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:21,280
Speaker 2: was stupid enough to go back to his same apartment,

1287
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:23,040
Speaker 2: so he thought he'd be safe there for a night,

1288
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:25,960
Speaker 2: but they flew there immediately and caught him, and this

1289
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 2: time they took a more forceful approach. One guy actually

1290
01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 2: even slept in the doorway of the apartment to make

1291
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 2: sure he didn't escape, which is terrifying. They made him

1292
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:36,320
Speaker 2: sign a promisory note under dress of course, saying that

1293
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:38,800
Speaker 2: he would be responsible for paying five hundred thousand dollars

1294
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:41,520
Speaker 2: if he left again. And then the third time he left,

1295
01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:43,520
Speaker 2: when he finally did truly escape in the middle of

1296
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:45,960
Speaker 2: the night on July fourth, nineteen ninety nine, a very

1297
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:49,120
Speaker 2: fitting date for this episode. He did not go back

1298
01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:49,760
Speaker 2: to his apartment.

1299
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:52,479
Speaker 3: Then I ran into a guy who had left the group.

1300
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:54,560
Speaker 3: He lived out here in LA and he left the

1301
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:58,000
Speaker 3: group like four years before me. You know, they're no coincidences,

1302
01:00:58,080 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 3: but I lit. He bumped into a friend of her

1303
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:02,720
Speaker 3: and said, he goes, hey, you're hoying, aren't you? And

1304
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:05,360
Speaker 3: my friend Dara. It's like, oh my god, I'd love

1305
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:07,240
Speaker 3: to talk to Dara. And I had to really choose

1306
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 3: my words carefully because I had actually come out to

1307
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:15,040
Speaker 3: California and Dar had left before, and I had pulled

1308
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 3: Dar back into the group, and so I was like,

1309
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:18,520
Speaker 3: I was just gonna think I'm gonna try to get

1310
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 3: him back in, and so I literally had to tell

1311
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:24,680
Speaker 3: his friend. I said, tell darr I'm living in LA

1312
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:27,440
Speaker 3: and I'm alone, and I'd really like to talk to him.

1313
01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:31,520
Speaker 3: It took about three weeks. He called me from his therapist.

1314
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 3: This is my therapist said I should call. I've been

1315
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:36,919
Speaker 3: avoiding this, and I'm like, wow, thank god you called.

1316
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 3: And so we started talking and he was kind of

1317
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:42,400
Speaker 3: in a crazy Livy situation. I had felt like I

1318
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 3: had outworn my welcome at Fabio's. He'd been too kind,

1319
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:47,640
Speaker 3: and I was kind of needing to talk about this.

1320
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 3: So Dar and I moved in together and we for

1321
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:53,720
Speaker 3: the first six months just started to deconstruct everything. It's like,

1322
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 3: remember that happened, that was weird, Like what do you

1323
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:57,880
Speaker 3: think was going on there? And it was through that

1324
01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:01,600
Speaker 3: process that we have finally got to the point where

1325
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:04,040
Speaker 3: I remember going, well, you know everyone's been saying this

1326
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:06,080
Speaker 3: was a cult. I know it wasn't a cult, but

1327
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 3: what do you think it was. He's like, oh, it

1328
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:09,520
Speaker 3: wasn't a cult either. I'm like, well, I go, do

1329
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:12,560
Speaker 3: you know anything about cult? It's like no, no, I'm like, well,

1330
01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:15,400
Speaker 3: maybe I should look into a Like I know it's

1331
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 3: not one, but maybe if I look into it, I'll

1332
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:21,400
Speaker 3: find out what it might be like. And so that

1333
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:24,760
Speaker 3: was how I found Steve Hassen's book. I remember going

1334
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:26,960
Speaker 3: on the Internet and finding the best selling book and

1335
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:30,560
Speaker 3: it was just combating cult mind control. And I also

1336
01:02:30,680 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 3: remember reading that you know this guy had been in

1337
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:37,040
Speaker 3: the Moonies. I remember thinking, God, I actually remember the

1338
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:40,000
Speaker 3: Moonies when I was a kid. These bald people in

1339
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:44,080
Speaker 3: airports and orange suits and just going, god, how could

1340
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:46,360
Speaker 3: you get involved with that? Like to me, like, oh,

1341
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:49,600
Speaker 3: that's definitely a cult. And so I was really kind

1342
01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 3: of dubious whether I should even get it because I said, well,

1343
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:55,000
Speaker 3: that no way relates to what I went through. But

1344
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 3: it had so many great reviews, I figured, let me

1345
01:02:57,080 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 3: just give it a shot. Maybe I'll just learned something.

1346
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:03,160
Speaker 3: The first sixty seventy pages was how he had been

1347
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 3: indoctrinated and you could have just changed the names, and

1348
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 3: I was like, holy shit, wow, And finally I had

1349
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:14,200
Speaker 3: the diagnosis, you know, I finally knew like, not only

1350
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:15,720
Speaker 3: had I been in a cult, but I had been

1351
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:18,800
Speaker 3: in a textbook cult. Like I thought at least maybe

1352
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:21,080
Speaker 3: I'd been in a special cult and anything not even

1353
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:26,200
Speaker 3: specially just textbook and all of that was horrifying. But

1354
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:29,080
Speaker 3: it was the beginning of the recovery. And then I eventually,

1355
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:31,480
Speaker 3: you know, kind of got my balls back and I

1356
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:33,640
Speaker 3: started my voice back, and I actually went on the

1357
01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 3: attack with the group and then I sued them and

1358
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:36,000
Speaker 3: took them down.

1359
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 2: You did, Oh, I didn't know that.

1360
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:40,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, And then you know, now twenty years later, going

1361
01:03:40,720 --> 01:03:43,520
Speaker 3: back and visiting some of these people and they're still

1362
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 3: caught up in it. Really, you know, I'd say out

1363
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:49,800
Speaker 3: of our group of like we were never big. I mean,

1364
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 3: it's probably closer to fifty, but with the turnover, maybe

1365
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:55,680
Speaker 3: one hundred four maybe five can admit it was a

1366
01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:57,720
Speaker 3: cult in knows so that word means it can talk

1367
01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:00,280
Speaker 3: about it. My gosh, everyone else is to on some

1368
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 3: form of trauma, denial, delusion, avoidance whatever. That is to

1369
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:08,720
Speaker 3: me the most tragic part of the story. Yeah. So,

1370
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:12,320
Speaker 3: like I was talking to this guy recently and he's

1371
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:14,560
Speaker 3: definitely spend doctor this whole thing and saying, you know,

1372
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:16,520
Speaker 3: because he's actually hadn't made a pretty good life for

1373
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:19,480
Speaker 3: himself and been successful, and it's like, oh, you know,

1374
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:21,800
Speaker 3: Frederick is the greatest teacher I've ever had. And I'm like,

1375
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:24,640
Speaker 3: you know what, I'm not saying there weren't some good

1376
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:26,720
Speaker 3: things that happened, because I think it's really important when

1377
01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:29,240
Speaker 3: you tell these stories, you have to talk about the

1378
01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:32,280
Speaker 3: good things because everyone's got to know, like, why did

1379
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:35,480
Speaker 3: you say totally? So that's a better question rather than

1380
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:37,760
Speaker 3: why did you just leave? It'd be like why did

1381
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:40,800
Speaker 3: you stay? That's a really important question to answer because

1382
01:04:41,080 --> 01:04:43,440
Speaker 3: there are things that are really, really potentially positive that

1383
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:46,040
Speaker 3: the group exposed to you. Whether it's the camaraderie, whether

1384
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:50,240
Speaker 3: it's just the sense of purpose, the teamwork, the aspiration

1385
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:52,520
Speaker 3: of doing something bigger than yourself, all those things are

1386
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:55,760
Speaker 3: really really positive. So he's kind of taken that version

1387
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:58,880
Speaker 3: of the whole thing. And I said to him, I

1388
01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:01,080
Speaker 3: have to look at the end of and I have

1389
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 3: to say a huge component of his personality, which is

1390
01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:09,560
Speaker 3: flat out deception. Yeah, I said, he lied about who

1391
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 3: he was, his name, his background, his covert drug use,

1392
01:05:14,120 --> 01:05:18,520
Speaker 3: his covert sexual forays. He got aids. He lied about

1393
01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:20,960
Speaker 3: that when he was sick and we were changing his

1394
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:25,840
Speaker 3: bedsword not knowing that we potentially could have got infected

1395
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:30,600
Speaker 3: because he was dishonest. And this guy's response was like, well,

1396
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:33,640
Speaker 3: he was human. I said, you know what, there's lots

1397
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:36,280
Speaker 3: of humans out there that don't behave like that, and

1398
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:39,560
Speaker 3: they certainly don't claim to be spiritual leaders. So I said,

1399
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:40,960
Speaker 3: I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you

1400
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:43,240
Speaker 3: on this one. And I could watch like no one's

1401
01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:46,240
Speaker 3: pushed back on him. And I wasn't being aggressive at all,

1402
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:49,000
Speaker 3: as being very gentle, but I could see no one's

1403
01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:51,280
Speaker 3: really pushed back on him because he's spoken with the

1404
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:54,919
Speaker 3: other guys who all support this guy tribe that basically says,

1405
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:58,600
Speaker 3: we don't have to look back and admit on some

1406
01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:02,080
Speaker 3: level we all got taken. Yeah, the key to recovery

1407
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:05,320
Speaker 3: is the humility to admit something happened. If you can't

1408
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:09,160
Speaker 3: admit that, no healing takes place, and the trauma stays

1409
01:06:09,160 --> 01:06:11,720
Speaker 3: in place, and it just kind of manifests in other areas.

1410
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:16,160
Speaker 3: And it's absolutely awful. Witnessing that again two decades later

1411
01:06:16,880 --> 01:06:21,480
Speaker 3: has been triggering and disturbing and also empowering. And I'm

1412
01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:25,320
Speaker 3: just grateful I'm not where they are. I hope in

1413
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:28,800
Speaker 3: telling the story that maybe some eyes will get opened,

1414
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:32,080
Speaker 3: and certainly I think that their people around them might

1415
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:33,960
Speaker 3: start to go, oh, I think we need to talk

1416
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:34,360
Speaker 3: about this.

1417
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:36,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. I hope the more you tell your story, the

1418
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:39,760
Speaker 2: more impact it will have on those people and others.

1419
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:43,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. I was talking to someone who actually has gone

1420
01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:45,600
Speaker 3: through this and it has been on a recovery path,

1421
01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:48,400
Speaker 3: and they were deciding whether to talk about their experience.

1422
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:51,280
Speaker 3: I said, I would never try to convince anyone doing anything,

1423
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:56,080
Speaker 3: but I certainly know if nothing gets said, nothing changes.

1424
01:06:56,720 --> 01:06:58,840
Speaker 1: Ooh. I've never heard of public.

1425
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:02,120
Speaker 3: If you talk about it, there's a chance thinks might alter.

1426
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:05,640
Speaker 3: So I'm taking my chances. I'm going to talk about it.

1427
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:08,600
Speaker 2: That's awesome. You're such a good storyteller. I've been enthralled

1428
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:09,360
Speaker 2: this entire time.

1429
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:10,760
Speaker 1: I know, I forgot we were doing a podcast.

1430
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:15,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why I'm in the movie business. I mean,

1431
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:18,960
Speaker 3: this experience got me fascinated with telling stories because I

1432
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:20,640
Speaker 3: would tell this story and people like, oh my god,

1433
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:22,680
Speaker 3: it's something you're in a movie. I'm like, no, wonder.

1434
01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:24,680
Speaker 3: I like movies so much because I'm literally in one

1435
01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:27,200
Speaker 3: most for twenty years of my life. And it got

1436
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:31,000
Speaker 3: me fascinated with that because it's really how we educate

1437
01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:33,960
Speaker 3: each other. I mean, you come home, you know, if

1438
01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:36,560
Speaker 3: you're married or with a partner, and you say, oh,

1439
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:38,600
Speaker 3: you're not gonna be having them today, and you tell

1440
01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:41,800
Speaker 3: a story. That's how we communicate, That's how we teach

1441
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:45,360
Speaker 3: you to that's how we find a connection and usually

1442
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:51,160
Speaker 3: over the tough times. Pain is the most intense bonding component.

1443
01:07:52,000 --> 01:07:56,000
Speaker 3: If you feel someone can see you and can relate

1444
01:07:56,080 --> 01:07:59,400
Speaker 3: to your pain, that's a much tighter bond. Then let's

1445
01:07:59,440 --> 01:08:01,520
Speaker 3: just go it can go barty and have a great time.

1446
01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:02,680
Speaker 3: It's not the same thing.

1447
01:08:03,120 --> 01:08:06,000
Speaker 2: Absolutely, what is not. Please tell that to the men

1448
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:08,880
Speaker 2: I date who won't share their pain with me. Give

1449
01:08:08,920 --> 01:08:12,040
Speaker 2: me maybe Fabi I will share his fame with me.

1450
01:08:15,080 --> 01:08:17,880
Speaker 1: I really liked reading that your mom you got to

1451
01:08:18,040 --> 01:08:18,720
Speaker 1: make up with her.

1452
01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:21,000
Speaker 3: Yeah. One of the components of the story that I

1453
01:08:21,080 --> 01:08:23,640
Speaker 3: feel gets left out, and when I try to do it,

1454
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:26,800
Speaker 3: I'm really going to try to incorporate. This is the

1455
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:30,559
Speaker 3: ripple effect. Like when you go down this journey, anyone

1456
01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:32,880
Speaker 3: who cares about you involuntarily it gets dragged on this

1457
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:34,519
Speaker 3: journey with you. It's like having a drug attic in

1458
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:36,840
Speaker 3: the family in that sense. And so when you are

1459
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:40,040
Speaker 3: someone who loves someone and you see them making choices,

1460
01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 3: albeit under influence whatever you may want to the situation

1461
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:45,880
Speaker 3: may be, but things that are self destructive and self

1462
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:49,240
Speaker 3: sabotaging and you feel powerless to stop them, you get

1463
01:08:49,400 --> 01:08:54,200
Speaker 3: deeply wounded. So for me in the recovery process, besides

1464
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:55,720
Speaker 3: all the homework Guy's doing to try to get my

1465
01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:58,840
Speaker 3: shit together, so to speak, and answer all those questions,

1466
01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:00,720
Speaker 3: because you know, not only did I try to have

1467
01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:04,240
Speaker 3: to figure out how to forgive myself, but also communicate

1468
01:09:04,320 --> 01:09:06,519
Speaker 3: this story to all my friends who are looking at

1469
01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:09,760
Speaker 3: me like, dude, what the fuck happened? Right? But then

1470
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:12,000
Speaker 3: the other side of it, which I never really imagined

1471
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:15,760
Speaker 3: to going through it, was seeing how wounded they were

1472
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:19,760
Speaker 3: all from this experience. Yeah, And that's just something I

1473
01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:23,080
Speaker 3: had to live with because I can't force them to

1474
01:09:23,200 --> 01:09:25,640
Speaker 3: heal that part, and so much of the focus is like,

1475
01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:27,120
Speaker 3: I just want to know you're okay. What you want

1476
01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:29,320
Speaker 3: to do again, I'm like, listen, I'm doing okay. How

1477
01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:31,720
Speaker 3: are you doing? What do you have? Fine? Fine? And

1478
01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:36,120
Speaker 3: I can see the wound. And that part's hard because

1479
01:09:37,320 --> 01:09:40,840
Speaker 3: it's counterintuitive in the sense that when someone goes through

1480
01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:44,639
Speaker 3: something the more elaborate side of the equation, everyone carries

1481
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:46,840
Speaker 3: so much guilt thinking they should have done something, maybe

1482
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:50,120
Speaker 3: more whatever. And I try to tell the story and

1483
01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:52,640
Speaker 3: communicate with them to say there's nothing you could do

1484
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:55,360
Speaker 3: on we were all way above our pay grade, and

1485
01:09:55,439 --> 01:09:58,040
Speaker 3: deal with the saying thing, none of us, what the

1486
01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:00,640
Speaker 3: fuck was going? Yeah, none of us, So it's no

1487
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:04,080
Speaker 3: one's fault. Yeah, But I still can't do that healing

1488
01:10:04,240 --> 01:10:07,400
Speaker 3: for them, and that's the part that's hard, and that

1489
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:10,960
Speaker 3: ripple effect, I think is really important because people like

1490
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:13,720
Speaker 3: when we talk about these cultic relationships and we talk

1491
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:15,479
Speaker 3: about the severe ones, like the ones that we have

1492
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:19,479
Speaker 3: gone through, when you then count in the ripple effect,

1493
01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:22,519
Speaker 3: I mean, this is having a monstrous effect on our

1494
01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:25,600
Speaker 3: whole psychea of our whole society, and so this is

1495
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:27,680
Speaker 3: not going to go away. This is something that really

1496
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:30,280
Speaker 3: needs to be dealt with. I'm trying very consciously to

1497
01:10:30,360 --> 01:10:32,839
Speaker 3: put in certain things, like at Princeton and other schools

1498
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 3: in the curriculum to teach courses on mind control and

1499
01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 3: influence techniques and manipulation tactics, just kind of common sense

1500
01:10:39,520 --> 01:10:42,360
Speaker 3: things that you could teach a kid even at thirteen fourteen,

1501
01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:45,000
Speaker 3: so they have a couple of red flags available to

1502
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:49,040
Speaker 3: them that when they're experiencing someone kind of sweeping them

1503
01:10:49,080 --> 01:10:52,120
Speaker 3: off their feed and being so complimentary and making them

1504
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:55,640
Speaker 3: feel good really fast, go oh, this could be a manipulation.

1505
01:10:56,040 --> 01:10:56,240
Speaker 2: Yes.

1506
01:10:56,800 --> 01:10:57,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1507
01:10:57,080 --> 01:11:01,120
Speaker 1: The problem is narcissists are so fun. It's like that

1508
01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:03,599
Speaker 1: should be the warning if anybody's making you have way

1509
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:05,000
Speaker 1: too much fun, way too fast.

1510
01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:07,960
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, but no one tells you. And the other

1511
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:11,160
Speaker 3: side of it is like my control works on everyone,

1512
01:11:11,200 --> 01:11:12,960
Speaker 3: but you have to be receptive. So the only time

1513
01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:15,960
Speaker 3: you're really receptive usually is if you're in some mode

1514
01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:19,240
Speaker 3: of seeking answers on some level, and if you encounter

1515
01:11:19,479 --> 01:11:21,400
Speaker 3: a person or a group that, from your point of

1516
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:25,400
Speaker 3: view seems to be giving you those answers, that seems

1517
01:11:25,439 --> 01:11:28,559
Speaker 3: like a great thing. So I tell people when you're

1518
01:11:28,760 --> 01:11:31,400
Speaker 3: in that mode of seeking, everyone's like, oh, that's awesome, dude,

1519
01:11:31,400 --> 01:11:33,760
Speaker 3: it's so great asking the bigger questions. Why am I year?

1520
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:36,519
Speaker 3: What's it all about? Like, that's all great, but you

1521
01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:39,719
Speaker 3: should also be saying, now, be careful. Though it's awesome,

1522
01:11:39,760 --> 01:11:43,559
Speaker 3: you're you're in that phase. Awesome, but every manipulator out

1523
01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:45,559
Speaker 3: there will see you as a target and they'll come

1524
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:47,040
Speaker 3: after you, So be careful.

1525
01:11:47,280 --> 01:11:47,400
Speaker 2: Right.

1526
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:50,519
Speaker 3: No one say sded, No one says that, And I

1527
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:53,720
Speaker 3: think that's a really important component. And until we make

1528
01:11:53,800 --> 01:11:56,040
Speaker 3: this kind of more common language of all of ours,

1529
01:11:56,520 --> 01:11:58,760
Speaker 3: we're all just so vulnerable all the time, and we're

1530
01:11:58,880 --> 01:12:05,519
Speaker 3: kind of predisposed as humans to follow the nature of

1531
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:08,280
Speaker 3: us as humans there we're kind of social creatures. We

1532
01:12:08,400 --> 01:12:10,160
Speaker 3: want to get along, to get along, and we just

1533
01:12:10,240 --> 01:12:12,160
Speaker 3: want to be part of the pack. And so it's

1534
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:13,880
Speaker 3: just kind of a DNA thing that if you want

1535
01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:17,360
Speaker 3: to become truly independent and become maybe a leader of

1536
01:12:17,840 --> 01:12:20,080
Speaker 3: your own life or others, you have to really work

1537
01:12:20,120 --> 01:12:24,920
Speaker 3: against that preprogramming. And we don't realize that how hardwired

1538
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:26,760
Speaker 3: it is to follow, Which is not to say we

1539
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:29,599
Speaker 3: shouldn't be a part of groups, not we just shouldn't

1540
01:12:29,600 --> 01:12:32,200
Speaker 3: devote ourselves to one and one only that controls our

1541
01:12:32,360 --> 01:12:35,000
Speaker 3: entire lives well exactly. And it's just acknowledging that there

1542
01:12:35,080 --> 01:12:38,400
Speaker 3: is some predisposition there that you need to be aware

1543
01:12:38,439 --> 01:12:42,400
Speaker 3: of that can potentially self sabotage, and like anything, if

1544
01:12:42,439 --> 01:12:44,720
Speaker 3: you know about it, you can have a fighting chance

1545
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:47,720
Speaker 3: to work with it. But if it's just unconscious, it's

1546
01:12:47,760 --> 01:12:50,280
Speaker 3: the same sort of thing why people find unhealthy relationships.

1547
01:12:50,320 --> 01:12:54,200
Speaker 3: It's familiar even though it's unhealthy. I just, oh, I

1548
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:55,160
Speaker 3: know what this feels like.

1549
01:12:55,280 --> 01:12:57,479
Speaker 2: It feels like what I grew up with, and that

1550
01:12:57,600 --> 01:12:59,640
Speaker 2: feels safe, no matter how unsafe it is.

1551
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:02,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, so all those dynamics I think are

1552
01:13:02,400 --> 01:13:05,840
Speaker 3: really important to and that's why these stories I think

1553
01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:09,080
Speaker 3: are great teaching tools. Because of the extreme nature of them,

1554
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:12,040
Speaker 3: it's sometimes easier to see the more subtle version in

1555
01:13:12,080 --> 01:13:14,320
Speaker 3: your own life. And that's why I think it's important,

1556
01:13:14,439 --> 01:13:16,599
Speaker 3: like the three of us, we tell our stories because

1557
01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:20,720
Speaker 3: they potentially can awaken people to say, oh wait, that

1558
01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:23,120
Speaker 3: actually is very very relatable to me and it really

1559
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:26,920
Speaker 3: resonates with something. But it's just a more subtle version

1560
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:27,120
Speaker 3: of it.

1561
01:13:27,439 --> 01:13:31,759
Speaker 2: Right, Well, this is awesome. Do you have any social

1562
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:32,960
Speaker 2: media you would like to share?

1563
01:13:34,760 --> 01:13:39,519
Speaker 3: Well, I'm on Instagram at hot rich, I'm on Facebook,

1564
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:41,800
Speaker 3: but yeah, I'm not a huge social media person, but

1565
01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:45,240
Speaker 3: I eventually want to do some public speaking and that

1566
01:13:45,320 --> 01:13:46,920
Speaker 3: sort of thing and kind of talk to kids and

1567
01:13:47,479 --> 01:13:50,479
Speaker 3: build some awareness in these type of things. I always

1568
01:13:50,520 --> 01:13:52,320
Speaker 3: love doing the movies and all that sort of thing.

1569
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:55,280
Speaker 3: I really love, but this is kind of my pet project.

1570
01:13:55,720 --> 01:13:57,599
Speaker 3: I get to work on cases where I help families

1571
01:13:57,640 --> 01:14:00,360
Speaker 3: get their kids out of cultic situations. That's been one

1572
01:14:00,400 --> 01:14:04,000
Speaker 3: of the most healing things that I've now potentially been

1573
01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:08,800
Speaker 3: a resource for others finding healing and finding their family. Again, Listen,

1574
01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:12,240
Speaker 3: every family's got their issues and there's dysfunction. But when

1575
01:14:12,280 --> 01:14:15,400
Speaker 3: you find a common enemy, boy, the family can really

1576
01:14:15,439 --> 01:14:17,680
Speaker 3: step up sometimes. And I've watched it and witnessed it

1577
01:14:17,760 --> 01:14:19,559
Speaker 3: and it is a beautiful thing to kind of see.

1578
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:23,360
Speaker 3: And when you watch someone's critical thinking come back. The

1579
01:14:23,400 --> 01:14:25,800
Speaker 3: way I describe it is when you get indoctrinated, it's

1580
01:14:25,800 --> 01:14:28,320
Speaker 3: like a pilot light that gets turned down really really low,

1581
01:14:28,400 --> 01:14:30,759
Speaker 3: but it never goes out right. Kind of like Horton

1582
01:14:30,840 --> 01:14:33,320
Speaker 3: hears the Who, it's all the people trying to find

1583
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:35,360
Speaker 3: some way to connect to this person. They get them

1584
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:38,360
Speaker 3: information they're not getting in this kind of secluded group thing,

1585
01:14:38,560 --> 01:14:41,000
Speaker 3: you know. And so it's like all the Who's trying

1586
01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:42,720
Speaker 3: to find like, what's the sound that's going to make

1587
01:14:42,800 --> 01:14:43,360
Speaker 3: Horton here.

1588
01:14:43,360 --> 01:14:45,280
Speaker 2: That understand this reference.

1589
01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:50,000
Speaker 6: I understand it's the yop, right, you don't know what

1590
01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:52,479
Speaker 6: that little yop is going to be, and the little

1591
01:14:52,760 --> 01:14:55,840
Speaker 6: who goes yop and we are here, we are here.

1592
01:14:56,320 --> 01:15:02,600
Speaker 3: That's what you're trying, doctor. Yeah, but it's exactly like that.

1593
01:15:02,680 --> 01:15:05,240
Speaker 3: You're trying to find what's it going to be? And

1594
01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:07,840
Speaker 3: when the critical thinking kicks back in, boy, you pull

1595
01:15:07,880 --> 01:15:10,200
Speaker 3: yourself out, it's like all of a sudden, it's like

1596
01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:13,720
Speaker 3: the fog parts and the clarity comes back and the

1597
01:15:13,840 --> 01:15:17,439
Speaker 3: light goes back on. It's incredible to see. So that's

1598
01:15:17,520 --> 01:15:20,920
Speaker 3: been remarkable. And actually I've done some cases with Steve

1599
01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:24,439
Speaker 3: act I read his book and then when he did

1600
01:15:24,520 --> 01:15:28,559
Speaker 3: the twenty fifth anniversary. I'm now one of the stories

1601
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:30,439
Speaker 3: in the book. So it's called a full circle like

1602
01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:33,679
Speaker 3: the book that got me out. Actually, I'm now part

1603
01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:35,080
Speaker 3: of that and I get to actually work with the

1604
01:15:35,120 --> 01:15:36,920
Speaker 3: guy who's you know, one of the best out there.

1605
01:15:37,040 --> 01:15:38,320
Speaker 2: So amazing.

1606
01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:40,519
Speaker 3: It's an incredible, you know, journey I've been on. And

1607
01:15:40,600 --> 01:15:41,439
Speaker 3: then I'm very grateful.

1608
01:15:41,680 --> 01:15:42,760
Speaker 2: Well, keep up the good work.

1609
01:15:43,080 --> 01:15:43,479
Speaker 3: Well, thank you.

1610
01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:45,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and thanks so much for coming on.

1611
01:15:45,720 --> 01:15:48,320
Speaker 3: No, my pleasure. I hope I didn't talk your ear off. Guys.

1612
01:15:48,960 --> 01:15:51,240
Speaker 2: No, it's great, Its perfect, perfect, My ear is on.

1613
01:15:55,000 --> 01:15:55,280
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1614
01:15:55,600 --> 01:16:00,160
Speaker 2: Okay, Well here we are, so Megan, it's time for

1615
01:16:00,240 --> 01:16:03,800
Speaker 2: the question. I'm ready. Do you think that you would

1616
01:16:03,880 --> 01:16:05,200
Speaker 2: join Eternal Values?

1617
01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:05,760
Speaker 1: Yes?

1618
01:16:06,320 --> 01:16:06,880
Speaker 2: Tell me more.

1619
01:16:07,479 --> 01:16:11,679
Speaker 1: Well, a handsome young model type taking me to clubs

1620
01:16:12,000 --> 01:16:15,080
Speaker 1: and telling me I'm awesome and giving me alcohol underage

1621
01:16:15,200 --> 01:16:18,960
Speaker 1: and partying is all I need to believe that you're

1622
01:16:19,040 --> 01:16:22,720
Speaker 1: from a different planet. No, I see it.

1623
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:26,400
Speaker 2: Holy shit. When I was like nineteen, all I wanted

1624
01:16:26,600 --> 01:16:28,840
Speaker 2: was to go to cool clubs. Yeah, that was like

1625
01:16:29,160 --> 01:16:30,400
Speaker 2: my goal in life.

1626
01:16:30,520 --> 01:16:33,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and god knows, I was like going to en

1627
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:38,080
Speaker 1: Cahoots literally in Wichita on like eighteen night. Imagine going

1628
01:16:38,120 --> 01:16:39,639
Speaker 1: to Studio fifty four.

1629
01:16:39,840 --> 01:16:41,880
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I was living here and the cool

1630
01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:45,360
Speaker 2: club was what was it called do was like the

1631
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:48,000
Speaker 2: sort of the douchier one. I feel like, well they

1632
01:16:48,040 --> 01:16:49,240
Speaker 2: both were, but hi.

1633
01:16:49,640 --> 01:16:51,400
Speaker 1: I was a mess.

1634
01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:55,479
Speaker 2: Hide. It was like Paris Hilton goes to hide or

1635
01:16:55,560 --> 01:16:57,120
Speaker 2: she had at least like a couple of years before

1636
01:16:57,200 --> 01:16:57,559
Speaker 2: or whatever.

1637
01:16:57,760 --> 01:16:58,759
Speaker 1: Do you remember my house?

1638
01:16:59,040 --> 01:16:59,160
Speaker 2: Oh?

1639
01:16:59,280 --> 01:17:00,720
Speaker 1: I think so? Yeah?

1640
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:02,639
Speaker 2: Wait was that on like right off of Hollywood?

1641
01:17:02,760 --> 01:17:02,920
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1642
01:17:06,960 --> 01:17:07,080
Speaker 3: Bro?

1643
01:17:07,400 --> 01:17:10,240
Speaker 2: All the DJs, it was like Steve Aoki thought he

1644
01:17:10,439 --> 01:17:13,640
Speaker 2: was so cool? Who else I can't remember. It was

1645
01:17:13,680 --> 01:17:17,639
Speaker 2: like bands and DJs, and I would have followed any

1646
01:17:17,800 --> 01:17:20,760
Speaker 2: of them if they played at music festival. I would

1647
01:17:20,760 --> 01:17:23,960
Speaker 2: have done anything they said. It didn't fucking matter. Would

1648
01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:27,000
Speaker 2: have followed, would have joined those golds, which brings us

1649
01:17:27,240 --> 01:17:30,439
Speaker 2: right back to the band discussion. Yep, and how people

1650
01:17:30,479 --> 01:17:33,080
Speaker 2: in bands have too much power. Yeah, so it sounds

1651
01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:34,679
Speaker 2: like we both would join internal values.

1652
01:17:34,760 --> 01:17:35,519
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah.

1653
01:17:36,280 --> 01:17:38,760
Speaker 2: I'm still so curious about the like about how the

1654
01:17:38,840 --> 01:17:43,040
Speaker 2: conversations began over. I wish I had like recordings of

1655
01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:46,320
Speaker 2: these conversations, you know, where the indoctrination's.

1656
01:17:45,680 --> 01:17:47,360
Speaker 1: Like slowly beginning.

1657
01:17:48,200 --> 01:17:49,559
Speaker 2: It doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

1658
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:52,640
Speaker 1: First, it's just so fast planet you guys, it's no

1659
01:17:52,720 --> 01:17:53,160
Speaker 1: big deal.

1660
01:17:53,720 --> 01:17:56,759
Speaker 2: It's a star, Megan so smarty.

1661
01:17:58,200 --> 01:18:03,040
Speaker 1: Fuck yeah, a star a star. But you know how

1662
01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:06,519
Speaker 1: how yeah, how does the conversation go from I'm from

1663
01:18:06,560 --> 01:18:08,680
Speaker 1: a star and so are you to now give me

1664
01:18:08,720 --> 01:18:09,400
Speaker 1: all of your money?

1665
01:18:09,720 --> 01:18:12,200
Speaker 2: Or how does it go from I like astrology and

1666
01:18:12,439 --> 01:18:17,160
Speaker 2: Eastern philosophy is interesting too, I'm communicating with the light

1667
01:18:17,320 --> 01:18:18,920
Speaker 2: people right, Well, it.

1668
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:22,240
Speaker 1: Does, and I can totally see myself following it.

1669
01:18:22,400 --> 01:18:26,479
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, yep, good, well, glad we're in agreement

1670
01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:27,479
Speaker 2: on that one.

1671
01:18:27,800 --> 01:18:30,519
Speaker 1: Although I don't think I would have been as patient

1672
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:33,080
Speaker 1: as why it was with the after he died, when

1673
01:18:33,120 --> 01:18:35,240
Speaker 1: it was no longer fun and just living in the

1674
01:18:35,280 --> 01:18:37,840
Speaker 1: middle of nowhere and being abused. I think he was

1675
01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:41,280
Speaker 1: being really loyal, and even my most loyal tendency is

1676
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:45,320
Speaker 1: a big well Studio fifty four guy died, I'm good.

1677
01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:47,720
Speaker 2: But if you believed it, I know, I know.

1678
01:18:47,880 --> 01:18:51,519
Speaker 1: Believe that's I guess my my thing. Like I still

1679
01:18:51,560 --> 01:18:53,680
Speaker 1: think even if I believed it, I would be like, well,

1680
01:18:53,760 --> 01:18:55,200
Speaker 1: this isn't fun anymore, so I'll.

1681
01:18:55,160 --> 01:18:57,040
Speaker 3: Just like not.

1682
01:18:57,360 --> 01:18:59,400
Speaker 2: But that's the thing. That's exactly the frog in the

1683
01:18:59,439 --> 01:19:03,360
Speaker 2: hot water, because we would never join point.

1684
01:19:03,640 --> 01:19:06,360
Speaker 1: You know, I'm actually saying, like, I'm impressed with his

1685
01:19:06,920 --> 01:19:09,800
Speaker 1: ability to have such little ego because he was a supermodel,

1686
01:19:10,240 --> 01:19:13,320
Speaker 1: and he was a really powerful person, and he cared

1687
01:19:13,360 --> 01:19:16,599
Speaker 1: so much about this group that he was basically abused.

1688
01:19:16,720 --> 01:19:19,640
Speaker 2: Yeah about Yeah, he was. He was. Well, I'm so

1689
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:22,480
Speaker 2: glad he got out of it. He seems to be thriving.

1690
01:19:23,120 --> 01:19:23,320
Speaker 3: Now.

1691
01:19:23,840 --> 01:19:27,519
Speaker 2: We love him. We're gonna hang love some Hoyt. Also

1692
01:19:27,600 --> 01:19:29,559
Speaker 2: love the name Hoyt. Never heard that name before.

1693
01:19:29,800 --> 01:19:30,360
Speaker 1: It's a cool name.

1694
01:19:30,520 --> 01:19:33,519
Speaker 2: Yeah. Okay, everyone, Well, thank you for listening.

1695
01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:35,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for listening. Guys. We hope you have

1696
01:19:35,640 --> 01:19:38,519
Speaker 1: a great week and remember to follow your gut, watch

1697
01:19:38,560 --> 01:19:42,960
Speaker 1: out for red flags, and never ever trust me. Oh

1698
01:19:43,200 --> 01:19:43,240
Speaker 1: my