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Speaker 1: From Meat Eaters World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana.

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Speaker 2: This is Col's week in Review with Ryan cal Kalla.

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Speaker 2: Here's Cal, all right, friends and neighbors.

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Speaker 1: Is uh, you know your old buddy Cal and Jordan

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Speaker 1: Sillers here on Col's weekend Review. We got another interview

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Speaker 1: episode out here for you right now today with Jeff Goodwin,

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Speaker 1: who is the president for the Society for Range Management

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Speaker 1: or SRM. Jeff, thank you so much for joining us.

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Speaker 1: What we want to attempt to do here today is

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Speaker 1: is try to bridge that divide that many folks, including

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Speaker 1: folks in the hunting community here in America have of

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Speaker 1: folks who can look out at range land, which often

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Speaker 1: would be described as just a barren field, and see

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Speaker 1: it as something good for wildlife habitat, something great for cattle.

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Speaker 1: Tall grass makes fat cattle, as we like to say.

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Speaker 1: And those that look at it and say this is

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Speaker 1: nothing and it's not doing us any good.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm honored to be with you today. Hopefully we

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Speaker 3: can shed some light on those ideas.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be fantastic. So would you mind telling

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Speaker 1: us what SRM is and why it exists.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, SRM's it's a professional Society for Promoting Sound Science

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Speaker 3: in our rangeland industry. And so our members are the ranchers,

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Speaker 3: their their academics that make up you know, the research

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Speaker 3: scientists that that work and communicate science to the general public,

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Speaker 3: to to the ranching community. They're also federal agency folks,

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Speaker 3: and so we're we're a very diverse community of rangeland

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Speaker 3: practitioners and rangeland professionals that work in the space every day,

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Speaker 3: and so, uh, you know, trying to create the opportunities

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Speaker 3: and the and the science to keep driving the stewardship

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Speaker 3: of those landscapes because they do provide a number of

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Speaker 3: ecosystem services that are often overlooked by the general public.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I just hung out with some ranchers who are in

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Speaker 1: the Lesser Prairie Chicken Landowner Alliance and it was really interesting.

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Speaker 1: They're they're in it to save ranching and chickens, not

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Speaker 1: to save chickens and then ranching. Uh is there their

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Speaker 1: point of view, which I think is is is great

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Speaker 1: are fined by men of our remaining lesser Prairie chickens,

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Speaker 1: which is a newly listed endangered species, are on private

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Speaker 1: ground and that's where that private ground is still native prairie.

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Speaker 1: So rangelands, like you said, they're there. They exist on

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Speaker 1: private and federally managed ground, both Forest Service and Bureau

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Speaker 1: of Land Management, plus plus some other agencies some National Park,

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Speaker 1: Bureau of of Wreck and so on, but predominantly it

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Speaker 1: would be Bureau of Land Management.

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Speaker 3: Fair to say, yeah, I think so, maybe maybe just

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Speaker 3: some context here. So, so rangelands make up seven hundred

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Speaker 3: and seventy million acres in the United States, and it's

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Speaker 3: about thirty six percent of the land cover, right, So

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Speaker 3: if you look at look from the top down, thirty

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Speaker 3: six percent of the country is what we would call rangelands.

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Speaker 3: And these are landscapes that are we call them natives.

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Speaker 3: So they have indigenous vegetation, you know, grasses, forbes, shrubs,

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Speaker 3: trees that are all native to that region. Certainly contextual,

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Speaker 3: there's different areas of the state that grow different kinds

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Speaker 3: and different plant communities that support a number of different

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Speaker 3: ecosystem services. I'll get into that in just a second.

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Speaker 3: But of that seven and seventy million acres, about two

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Speaker 3: thirds of those are privately owned, right, And so we've

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Speaker 3: got this sort of dichotomy of public or private lands.

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Speaker 3: You know, in the certainly, if you looked at the

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Speaker 3: Great Plains, most of that's privately owned. But if you

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Speaker 3: look out towards the west, most of those rangeland landscapes

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Speaker 3: are publicly owned. And so if you look at the

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Speaker 3: nineteen states west of the Mississippi, fifty three percent of

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Speaker 3: that land base is rangeland. And so most of the

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Speaker 3: rangeland acres or western west of the Mississippi, including the

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Speaker 3: you know, the Prairies, the Great Plains, and then the

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Speaker 3: western rangelands. And so I think it's important to understand

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Speaker 3: too that these rangelands are disturbance dependent ecologies. And what

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Speaker 3: I mean by that is they rely on some level

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Speaker 3: of disturbance. And so the two primary disturbances are fire

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Speaker 3: and grazing, and so those are the two disturbances that

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Speaker 3: created the habitats that we that we've seen, and they've

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Speaker 3: been managed that way for hundreds of years. Historically, it

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Speaker 3: was it was thirty to sixty million bison grazing on

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Speaker 3: these rangeland landscapes. And it was it was also both

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Speaker 3: wildfire and human caused. Are our Native Americans used prescribed

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Speaker 3: fire and for seven in seventy different ways, over seventy

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Speaker 3: different ways, it's been postulated, and so from that aspect,

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Speaker 3: these landscapes have been managed for a very long time.

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Speaker 3: So fast forward two hundred years now we have these

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Speaker 3: subdivided private landscapes into what we call ranches today, and

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Speaker 3: then the federal lands are then further subdivided into sort

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Speaker 3: of just say grazing allotments, right, and so they're all

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Speaker 3: still being managed. And I think the point here is

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Speaker 3: they require that level of management, right, So it's the

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Speaker 3: conservation of that landscape that's the wise use of our

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Speaker 3: natural resources. So this idea of preservation just walking off

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Speaker 3: and not doing anything that doesn't work in this typical scenario.

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Speaker 3: So it's really important to understand the you know, sort

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Speaker 3: of the landscape of private versus public range lands, but

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Speaker 3: also their importance. They create a number of eco system

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Speaker 3: services for the public in or the general public in

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Speaker 3: the cities that that they may not understand. Number one,

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Speaker 3: food and fiber, food and fibers and ecosystem service produced

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Speaker 3: by these range lands that we often overlook, but certainly

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Speaker 3: water quality and water quantity. In a state like Texas,

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Speaker 3: eighty three percent of every rain drop that falls in

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Speaker 3: the state of Texas falls on on some working land.

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Speaker 3: That's that's that's that's primarily rangeland carbon security is another one, uh,

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Speaker 3: securing carbon and the and in those landscapes, plant and

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Speaker 3: insect biodiversity. And then the last one and probably one

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Speaker 3: of the very most important is wildlife habitat provision. You know,

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Speaker 3: the outdoor recreation space is I mean, it's a three

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Speaker 3: hundred and eighty five billion dollar industry and that includes

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Speaker 3: hunting and fishing. But but those are those are the

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Speaker 3: ecosystem services that that are provided to you know, an

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Speaker 3: urban public that that many times is they're over look

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Speaker 3: that to your point earlier, you said, you know, there

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Speaker 3: is a you know, there's a perception that that's just

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Speaker 3: unused or unimproved land. But they're providing a number of

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Speaker 3: benefits that sometimes they're easier or harder to quantify, but

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Speaker 3: they're absolutely happening. And they have a they have a

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Speaker 3: they have an ecological value, they have a social value,

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Speaker 3: and an economic value.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, if we could magically connect all of our

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Speaker 1: urban dwelling friends with the fact that a rain drop

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Speaker 1: in grasslands one hundred miles away can affect them and.

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Speaker 2: That's the value of that land, that would be a

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Speaker 2: hell of.

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Speaker 1: A victory on today's short podcast.

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Speaker 2: I'd love to see that happen, can you.

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Speaker 1: I'm always been fascinated with water, you know, grown up

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Speaker 1: in the West, we grew up in like hard drought

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Speaker 1: times in Montana. You know, I'm a nineteen eighties kid,

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Speaker 1: and certainly drought exists in Montana right now as well.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I like always laugh when I see

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Speaker 1: fireworks going off or on Independence Day weekend here in Montana,

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Speaker 1: because like, we did not grow up with that, Like

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Speaker 1: it was never legal to shoot off fireworks. Everything was

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Speaker 1: so dry, right, So would you mind just taking a

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Speaker 1: second and talking about that relationship between between water conservation

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Speaker 1: and water conservation and in grasslands.

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Speaker 3: Sure, So for me, it all starts with the soil,

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Speaker 3: and it's the and it's the health of that soil.

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Speaker 3: Most of the time we think of soil as this

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Speaker 3: it's just this sort of inactive medium to grow a plant. Right,

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Speaker 3: That's not the case. It's a it's a living ecosystem.

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Speaker 3: There's a biological component to that soil that impacts the

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Speaker 3: canmical and physical structure of that soil. And so it's

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Speaker 3: often said we can't control how much rain we get,

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Speaker 3: but we can control how much we keep, and so

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Speaker 3: from a rancher's perspective, if we think about what are

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Speaker 3: the opportunities to keep more of the rain that we

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Speaker 3: that we do get, a couple of different things can happen. Right,

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Speaker 3: There's some basic soil health building principles that we would

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Speaker 3: focus on. Number one is keeping the ground covered as

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Speaker 3: much as we can and so ensuring that we try

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Speaker 3: to limit bare ground where possible. Now that goes back

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Speaker 3: to the individual landowners specific goals and objectives. Maybe they're,

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Speaker 3: you know, managing for a specific habitat type that may

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Speaker 3: require some bare ground. In the Great Plains, maybe it's

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Speaker 3: a little different. You will have less brown ground here

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Speaker 3: typically than we do in some of the western landscapes.

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Speaker 3: But trying to reduce bare grounds one thing, because if

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Speaker 3: the soil is moving or blowing, it's not becoming healthy. Right,

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Speaker 3: If it's washing away, we're having seeing erosion issues. The

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Speaker 3: next thing is building the structural capacity of that soil

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Speaker 3: to be able to hold water and so not only

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Speaker 3: instead of that rain drop falling and having this many

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Speaker 3: explosion displacing all these soil particles and then they wash

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Speaker 3: into the creek and ultimately end up into the you know,

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Speaker 3: in a basin or a water body. It's getting the

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Speaker 3: water into the soil, so increasing the ability for that

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Speaker 3: soil to infiltrate, right, infiltrate the water into the soil.

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Speaker 3: Once we get the water to slow down, we can

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Speaker 3: infiltrate it once we That's one of the things that

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Speaker 3: we talk about when we manage for healthy soils. We're

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Speaker 3: trying to increase the organic matter content of that soil

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Speaker 3: because organic matter and soil not only helps hold particles

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Speaker 3: together that increases the ability for that water to infiltrate,

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Speaker 3: but it also holds water longer, so you can withst out.

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Speaker 3: Many times, the folks that we work with that have

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Speaker 3: worked to increase organic matter in our soils, they're the

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Speaker 3: last one in a drought and they're the first one

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Speaker 3: out because they've held water longer. And then when it

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Speaker 3: does rain h they infiltrate it and they can they

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Speaker 3: get green up sooner. So managing our uplands has a

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Speaker 3: significant impact on the health of our riparian zones.

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Speaker 1: And we're at a time right now where we were

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Speaker 1: losing about two million acres of grasslands a year. Right now,

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Speaker 1: like a lot of the literature that's out there says

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Speaker 1: the most imperiled the ecosystem on the planet.

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Speaker 3: I agree, And there's so there's three strategies I would

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Speaker 3: I would propose, and we've published all this in a

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Speaker 3: in a technical report through the Society for Range Management.

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Speaker 3: It's called rangeland Ecosystems Connecting Nature and People. I would

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Speaker 3: encourage your readers to look on the SRM website. They

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Speaker 3: can find it there and it outlines those primary eco

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Speaker 3: ecosystem services. But uh, there's those three management strategies. One

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Speaker 3: of them is is avoiding conversion, just like you know

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Speaker 3: you were alluding to. You know, it's been reported that

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Speaker 3: we've lost thirty two million acres of grassland to cropland

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Speaker 3: since twenty twelve. That's nearly fifteen times the size of

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Speaker 3: Yellowstone Park, and so significant amounts of areas have been converted. Also,

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Speaker 3: look and I kind of bring that a little bit

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Speaker 3: closer to home, and I'll just speak to Texas. We're

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Speaker 3: seeing not only conversion but land fragmentation. And so from

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Speaker 3: nineteen ninety seven to twenty twelve, the population in the

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Speaker 3: state of Texas has increased fifty five percent, over eleven

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Speaker 3: hundred people. A day or moving to the state of Texas,

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Speaker 3: the number of small farms, these are farms smaller than

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Speaker 3: which is the majority of those farms have increased thirty

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Speaker 3: one percent. Mid sized farms have decreased by twenty seven percent.

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Speaker 3: So these larger ranches are getting broken up into smaller

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Speaker 3: partss of land. And so everybody wants their peace right

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Speaker 3: and which is great eight but we're but it's fragmenting

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Speaker 3: the landscape into smaller parcels of land that that, you know,

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Speaker 3: it becomes a little bit more of a challenge to

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Speaker 3: have collective conservation across a broader, more broad landscape. When

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Speaker 3: you think of wildlife habitat, they don't stop at the fence, right,

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Speaker 3: and so and so we've got to we've got to

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Speaker 3: think about this from from sort of a larger perspective.

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Speaker 3: Texas has saw the larger ranches, you know, greater than

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Speaker 3: a couple of thousand acres, they've seen the sharpest decline

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Speaker 3: over the last five year period. And since we've been

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Speaker 3: recording it, we'll lost over a thousand operations in that

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Speaker 3: time period. And so not that they're lost, they're just smaller, right,

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Speaker 3: And so the number of smaller operations have has certainly increased.

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Speaker 3: So avoiding conversion is one thing, right, trying to keep

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Speaker 3: range lands range lands. The next one is range land restoration.

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Speaker 3: We've got to have the tools. We've got to have

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Speaker 3: the funding to implement the management practices that steward those

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Speaker 3: help with steward those land capes. And more importantly, we've

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Speaker 3: got to have the people that can provide the technical guidance,

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Speaker 3: the technical expertise to the know how to know how

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Speaker 3: to communicate the science to producers that are managing these

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Speaker 3: lands and learn from them as well. It's a two

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Speaker 3: way street.

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Speaker 1: Jeff, I thought your whole job was to look at

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Speaker 1: a chunk of grassland, a pasture, if you will, and

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Speaker 1: say this is how many cattle you can run out

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Speaker 1: here for how long?

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Speaker 3: That's part of the story, that's part of it. It

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Speaker 3: is certainly one piece. It's not the whole pie.

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Speaker 2: And it sounds like the other pieces of this pie

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Speaker 2: take a little a little bit of time to learn.

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Speaker 3: You know, they do. It's just like anything. You know,

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Speaker 3: you walk out and I started my career just by

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Speaker 3: walking out. And I kind of grew up on a

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Speaker 3: ranch and my grandfather managed and probably wasn't ever an

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Speaker 3: own one. So I kind of got into this conservation

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Speaker 3: role because I wanted to work with ranchers. But you know,

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Speaker 3: I would walk out there and I didn't know what

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Speaker 3: I was walking on, And so it started by just

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Speaker 3: knowing the plants. Right. Then when you learn the plants,

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Speaker 3: you want to learn how to manage them. Then when

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Speaker 3: you learn how to planetge them, you want to tell

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Speaker 3: somebody about it, and so that's it just kind of

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Speaker 3: grows from there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, right now.

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Speaker 1: We seeing a reduction in at least the federal side

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Speaker 1: of that workforce. Obviously with some federal funding freezes. It

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Speaker 1: puts universities in an interesting spot too, because there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of funding that goes to our universities to continue

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Speaker 1: education like this is there are you seeing an impact

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Speaker 1: in like the rangeland ecology escape right now?

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Speaker 3: From a from a grant perspective, you know, there's been

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Speaker 3: some there's been some Certainly there's been some halting of

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Speaker 3: some grants. Some of it's precautionary on you know, kind

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Speaker 3: of maybe a subwordy may say, Okay, we're gonna pause

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Speaker 3: work until we figure out what's going on. So some

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Speaker 3: of that's happening some grants have been halted, so there's

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Speaker 3: certainly an impact, you know, I think I think when

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Speaker 3: we step back and look at it from a from

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Speaker 3: a larger perspective and the impact. There was an interesting

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Speaker 3: report by in twenty thirteen, so this data is a

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Speaker 3: little bit older, but they estimated the direct spending impact

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Speaker 3: of conservation efforts to be about just under forty billion dollars,

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Speaker 3: which is about and sixty percent of that came from

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Speaker 3: federal and then you had state and local conservation efforts

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Speaker 3: as well. But when they looked at what that generated

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Speaker 3: from a total economic activity perspective, it was over ninety

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Speaker 3: billion dollars, and so it was like a two point

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Speaker 3: four to one to one return on investment for conservation

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Speaker 3: activity benefits from the investment, And so, you know, I

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Speaker 3: think we we've got to look at it from a

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Speaker 3: from a larger perspective. There certainly are opportunities where there

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Speaker 3: there have been some some assessment of some of the

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Speaker 3: funding that's being spent. I think I think they're gonna,

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Speaker 3: you know, they they have a priority to work through

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Speaker 3: and try The administration has a defined opportunity to work

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Speaker 3: through and try to find efficiencies, and I think that's

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Speaker 3: what they're doing, you know, it's it's you know, how

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Speaker 3: they go how they go about it is is up

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Speaker 3: to the administration. I think our role as from an

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Speaker 3: SRM perspective is to ensure that they understand the importance

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Speaker 3: of rangelands, understand those those range lands require management and

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Speaker 3: ensuring that that, you know, if there's an opportunity for

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Speaker 3: us to provide insight, help or guidance on on how

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Speaker 3: to most appropriately implement that stewardship from a scientific perspective,

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Speaker 3: that's our role. And you know that that that requires people. Right,

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Speaker 3: most of these landscapes are managed by people with two feet,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's the two legged people that are that

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Speaker 3: are managing all these landscapes. And so we've got to

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Speaker 3: have a technically adequate, scientifically sound workforce that can that

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Speaker 3: can implement the strategies on private and public landscapes.

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Speaker 1: Where do the bulk of like rangeland ecologists come from?

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Speaker 1: Are they generally starting in one sector or another?

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Speaker 2: What's like the federal to private to NGO split? If

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Speaker 2: you're aware of it, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, I don't know they answer to that question, but

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Speaker 3: I know that the sort of the federal the NGO

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Speaker 3: space is growing, I think, uh, I think there's certainly

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Speaker 3: opportunities there for what we call private public partnerships, and

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Speaker 3: r CS does a really good job of that through

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Speaker 3: their Regional Conservation Partnership program. That's what that's for. It's

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Speaker 3: it's a program through the Farm Bill where they partner

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Speaker 3: with conservation organizations to implement conservation on the ground, both

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Speaker 3: technical and financial assistance. And so that that's been a

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Speaker 3: really successful model for them. In terms of the breakout,

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Speaker 3: I'm not really sure how to answer that, but I

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Speaker 3: would say that, you know, there's there's there's different sectors, right.

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Speaker 3: There's there's the scientists that work for the Agricultural Resource

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Speaker 3: Our Research Service and and so those are the primarily

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Speaker 3: the research scientist PhD level scientists they are doing of

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Speaker 3: science within the U s d A. You know, there's

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Speaker 3: there's conservationists rangeland conservationists that work for BLM, for nr CS,

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Speaker 3: for you know, there's a whole cohort of folks that

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Speaker 3: are that are providing either tech technical assistance to an

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Speaker 3: allotment UH or a permittee or technical assistance to private

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Speaker 3: farmers and ranchers on a day to day basis. And

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Speaker 3: they're they're implementing. They're helping those those producers develop conservation plans.

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Speaker 3: And then on the on the private side and uh,

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Speaker 3: and then helping facilitate those actions through farm build programs.

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Speaker 1: And and a conservation plan in this instance, that's that's

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Speaker 1: typically something that would be like a long term grazing plan.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it would, it would. An overarching conservation plan would

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Speaker 3: include a grazing management plan. But it starts by working

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Speaker 3: with that particular landowner defining their goals and objectives. It's

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Speaker 3: their property, and I'm talking on the sort of the

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Speaker 3: private space, and then and then identifying the what what

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Speaker 3: the resource concerns there are. It may be an erosion problem,

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Speaker 3: it may be lack of forage availability, there may be

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Speaker 3: other resource concerns. And then they had done it. They

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Speaker 3: work through a process of identifying or or identifying the

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Speaker 3: resources they have to work with, going working through the

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Speaker 3: alternatives that the landowner has in terms of implementing management practices.

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Speaker 3: They work through the process helping them make that decision.

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Speaker 3: And then one of the most important parts is developing

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Speaker 3: a longer term monitoring program so that you have that

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Speaker 3: when they provide this financial investment, we have the monitoring

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Speaker 3: to help them see if they're getting better, right, monitoring

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Speaker 3: forage alloications or forage productivity and or monitoring maybe it's

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Speaker 3: monitoring for brush encroaching, woody encroachment, whatever, the monitoring strategy

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Speaker 3: is that that monitoring and follow up is keenly important.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, amazing fact that I was recently made aware of.

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Speaker 1: To go back to the lesser prairie chicken. And you

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Speaker 1: know here in Montana, we're always talking about the greater

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Speaker 1: sage grouse, right, which is an awesome bird that I

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Speaker 1: grew up with on big open range cattle country in

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Speaker 1: eastern Montana. But the lesser prairie chicken won't nest within

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Speaker 1: six acres of a vertical structure, right, So it's a

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Speaker 1: bird that is just by evolution. Gram design is made

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Speaker 1: for wide open spaces. And I imagine your job, especially

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Speaker 1: when you start talking about these landscapes getting more fragmented,

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Speaker 1: broken up into more individual owners versus you know, something

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Speaker 1: that we would certainly think of as like a traditional

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Speaker 1: agricultural path where it's it's family expansion. Not saying all

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Speaker 1: families do things the same way, but that that job

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Speaker 1: gets gets harder to get out and educate more and

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Speaker 1: more individual property owners who may or may not take

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Speaker 1: that education.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I mean, it's it's certainly a dynamic we

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Speaker 3: work with. You know, each individual operation is going to

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Speaker 3: be different. You've got a different history, you've got a

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Speaker 3: different dynamic. You know, some ranches we work with have

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Speaker 3: are large and have a board of directors they answer to,

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Speaker 3: you know. You know, some of these smaller operations have

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Speaker 3: you know, their their their family owned. But many of

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Speaker 3: them that's not their single source of income anymore. They

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Speaker 3: have a job in town. Uh, and it's a you know,

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Speaker 3: it's a it's a maybe even a recreational property for them.

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Speaker 3: And then there's this dynamic of abs and tee ownership,

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Speaker 3: you know, where the property owner lives in the city

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Speaker 3: but and doesn't live on the land anymore. And so

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Speaker 3: there's all these uh dynamics that you have to work

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Speaker 3: with dealing with you know, families or decision maker maybe

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Speaker 3: one or two or three people or more. And and

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Speaker 3: so anytime, anytime you work through those types of scenarios,

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Speaker 3: you just have to step back and and and understand

384
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Speaker 3: that there is a there's a social dynamic to managing landscapes. UH.

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Speaker 3: And it's it's not just grass cows and white tail

386
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Speaker 3: deer anymore. It's we have to we have to work

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Speaker 3: through the manager's lens and help them see where their goals,

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Speaker 3: how we're going to help them implement their goal and objectives.

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Speaker 3: And it's not a straight path all the time.

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Speaker 2: Sure. Sure.

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Speaker 1: And then when we're you know, talking about like the

392
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Speaker 1: really important stuff, which is like growing big antelope bucks

393
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Speaker 1: and and mule deer bucks and making sure there's a

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Speaker 1: bunch of upl birds out there, it's it's probably pretty

395
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Speaker 1: nice to be able to point back to the fact

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Speaker 1: that there were millions of very heavy bison roam in

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Speaker 1: the range and had many times of abundance during that

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Speaker 1: like open management system to where you know, I'd point

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Speaker 1: out all the time that grazing isn't always bad because

400
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Speaker 1: from certain conservation circles, folks can point at that and

401
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Speaker 1: be like, well, that shouldn't be here.

402
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Speaker 3: It's often stated that it's the it's the how, not

403
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Speaker 3: the cow, and uh, and that that it's certain that

404
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 3: that's certainly true. I mean, how we manage these landscapes,

405
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Speaker 3: whether it's a you know, you're reintroducing bison to a

406
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Speaker 3: to a landscape or we're grazing, a grazing you know,

407
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Speaker 3: Herford steers it how we manage the herbivaly or the

408
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,360
Speaker 3: grazing managements really and so you know, you had mentioned

409
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Speaker 3: that historically we have these really large herds of bison

410
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Speaker 3: and they would they would travel to forage and water.

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Speaker 3: Many times they were following a prescribed fire because it

412
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 3: got green it would green up, or a wildfire and

413
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,199
Speaker 3: so and so that's what we try, honestly to mimic

414
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Speaker 3: in many situations from a grazing perspective. I mean, that's

415
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Speaker 3: that's essentially what we're trying to mimic in any type

416
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Speaker 3: of rotational grazing strategy is to not only that have

417
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Speaker 3: that animal impact, but have the long recovery periods. And

418
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Speaker 3: so it's to me, from a grazing perspective, that recovery

419
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Speaker 3: period is way more important than the grazing period, right,

420
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Speaker 3: And so we work with ranchers to develop a strategy

421
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Speaker 3: that not only works for the ranch and those plant

422
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 3: communities and their operational design, but also works for the rancher, right.

423
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Speaker 3: And so it it's not very helpful for us to

424
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Speaker 3: walk in and say, well, you know, ought to graze

425
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 3: it this way. If it doesn't fit their context, it's

426
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 3: never going to work. And so so we have to

427
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 3: figure out how do we develop a strategy that number

428
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 3: one fits their economic context, text, their social context, and

429
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 3: the ecological context of the ranch. And so it's a

430
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 3: dynamic situation. It's more than just putting up fence and

431
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 3: rotating cows. But the just is to provide the use

432
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 3: and the recovery so that those plants have the opportunity

433
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 3: to recovery and increase the health and function of that

434
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 3: range land system.

435
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: And then when you jump over on to the public

436
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: side of the fans, the federally managed side of the fans,

437
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: how do things change from a rangeland ecologists perspective?

438
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 3: You know, it's a it's it's it's still rangeland right.

439
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 3: We we have to manage those landscapes. There are some regulations.

440
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 3: There's there's regulations with you know BLM and for Service

441
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 3: both have have set regulations around how UH or the

442
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 3: animal unit months or a u MS that will be

443
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 3: provided for each of those and the permittees work with

444
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 3: a range specialist to develop a plan and then and

445
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,959
Speaker 3: then they implement those accordingly. I think there's you know,

446
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 3: there's a lot of people working on uh those those

447
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 3: grazing regulations and uh, most of my experience has been

448
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 3: on private land than than the the public landscapes. But

449
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 3: I know that there's a lot of people working on

450
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 3: uh outcome based strategies to increase those beneficial outcomes for

451
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 3: both the rancher and the and the and the the

452
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 3: range land landscape, working on ways that that there can

453
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 3: have more flexibility in some of those regulations to provide

454
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 3: the rancher more flexibility in their operations by still by

455
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 3: still maintaining the function and the stewardship of the landscape.

456
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 3: And so they're working hand to hand every day, UH,

457
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 3: trying to do the best job that they can.

458
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: And I would imagine though, like that multiple use mandate

459
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: of public lands more or less BLM words, it a

460
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: little bit different, but.

461
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 2: That has to just add some complication. Two things like

462
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 2: you have.

463
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: The the the big ranch that's managed by a board

464
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: of directors where you may get a few more questions

465
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: on your management plan and maybe have some sometimes where

466
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: things come to an impasse. But you know, it's still

467
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: a different can of worms than than on the the.

468
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 2: Federal public landscape.

469
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 1: And you know I think noxious weeds, noxious uh or

470
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: invasive plant education for the general public. Like, there's nothing

471
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: in any state I've ever hunted that says, hey, in

472
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: order to go out there and enjoy yourself, you better

473
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: be aware of noxious weeds. We're certain parts of Montana

474
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: you talk to producers and they're looking at your license

475
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: plate to see what county you came from, and they're like,

476
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: did you wash your truck? Like stay on the gravel roads,

477
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: don't take the two tracks, and and that can be

478
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 1: a fire conversation too, But a lot of times it's

479
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: trying to reduce the spread of weeds or grasses that

480
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: are going to be detrimental to that that grazing plan

481
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: on that property.

482
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that there's certainly that's certainly a concern

483
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 3: for for public landscapes. You know, cheap gas is a

484
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 3: big one too, and in that part of the world,

485
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 3: you know, it's a sort of you know, it's an

486
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 3: invasive annual grass that can be susceptible to wildfire and

487
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 3: things of that nature. Noxious weeds are are are a

488
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 3: big one some of the you know, the federally named

489
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 3: you know, I think I think from that perspective, you're right,

490
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 3: it is. It is different. On the private side. You know,

491
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 3: you've got privatey proper private property rights. I mean the

492
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 3: landowner can ultimately, within most bounds, manage that property. How

493
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 3: are they want to When you get into the public side,

494
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 3: there are federal regulations. There's federal regulations on on you know,

495
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 3: how many how many animal units they can take, how

496
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 3: many how they graze those and so there there are

497
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 3: there's a there's an added level of restriction. I think

498
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 3: for the most part. The good thing about that is

499
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 3: that we're seeing landowners and conservation organizations and the federal

500
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 3: government work together more in recent history than I've seen

501
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 3: than than certainly was you know, ten twenty thirty years ago.

502
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 3: I think they've become more collaborative than not. That's a

503
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 3: good thing. Anytime we got more people at the table

504
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 3: and and we're listening to each other, that's probably step

505
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 3: number one.

506
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: And how do how do we get the public more involved?

507
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: Like how do we get folks to look at a

508
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: big chunk of range land that's quote unquote not doing

509
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: anything and understand that it's actually providing everyone a lot,

510
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: whether that's you know, drought tolerance or having that that

511
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: that sell healthy native ground system. Sorry I'm spacing out

512
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: on the word here, but having that community on the ground,

513
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: that's that's not going to let in invasives after a fire. Like,

514
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: how do we tie people back to the fact that

515
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: this stuff is going away real fast and it's it's

516
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: really important and it's and it's it's providing us a

517
00:33:58,040 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: lot of benefits.

518
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 3: Man, that's the gold in question.

519
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I had a Montana produced brisket for Saint

520
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 1: Patrick's Day from from Montana and it was full of

521
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: fat and it was amazing For a guy who eats

522
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 1: a lot of wild game.

523
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 3: It was glorious, wasn't it.

524
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: It was it, really, it really was. My girlfriend's not

525
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: the biggest fan of Irish dinner, but I make it

526
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: a little fancy.

527
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 2: For her and she gets over it.

528
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 1: But like, is telling people to eat eat locally produced

529
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: beef enough or what are the things?

530
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's a lot. I think it's

531
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 3: a sort of a multi dimensional problem we've got. I

532
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,479
Speaker 3: think I think our food system is certainly one of those.

533
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 3: And that's you know, that's something that this new administration

534
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 3: is keenly focused on, is the food system. And uh,

535
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 3: I think there's been a movement that we've all seen

536
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 3: over the last several years of uh you know, promoting local,

537
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 3: you know, promoting healthy food choices. And I think our

538
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:14,839
Speaker 3: industry UH has We could always do a better job

539
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 3: at telling our story, right, But I think we've done

540
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 3: a lot better job in the recent history to tell

541
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 3: the story of the beef industry for instance, or you know,

542
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 3: and providing a wholesome, clean, effective protein source for the

543
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 3: American public. I think I think we could always do

544
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 3: a better job. I think tying in it's not just

545
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 3: about it. I think the food's a great angle, and

546
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,240
Speaker 3: I think it's an angle that we need to spend

547
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 3: more time and effort on. But I also think we

548
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 3: have to tie in those more intrinsic values that we

549
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 3: often overlook, and it's those ecosystem services that we were

550
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 3: mentioning earlier. There's a couple out there that are harder

551
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 3: to translate to the public than others. And so when

552
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 3: you talk to somebody about organic matter and soil carbon,

553
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 3: it's hard to take that to someone in the city

554
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 3: and say, look how important this is. But if I

555
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 3: take a glass of water and I hold it in

556
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 3: front of them, everybody relates to water. I think water

557
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 3: is going to be a huge one for us in

558
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 3: the future. It already is. I also think I think

559
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 3: wild spaces and wildlife habitat is a huge one for

560
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 3: us too, because whether or not they're a hunter, when

561
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 3: you look at that one hundred and eighty five billion

562
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 3: dollars of recreational revenue, a significant portion, if not the majority,

563
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 3: is wildlife watchers. It's people that just want to go

564
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 3: birding or just want to see wildlife and know that

565
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 3: that you know, they have habitat to you know, sustain

566
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 3: and thrive, and so I think that's another key important

567
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 3: piece is is but but it's the coupling of all

568
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 3: those it's telling the story that we can have the

569
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 3: wise use of these landscapes. We can graze landscapes and

570
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 3: produce and and many many times increase uh the effectiveness

571
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 3: of a habitat for a specific species by using the

572
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 3: right management at the right time, for the right reason.

573
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 3: And so so taking all those things and putting them

574
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 3: together in a package is man. That's that's something a

575
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 3: lot of us are working on. How do we how

576
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 3: do we better tell that story? I think one of

577
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 3: the reasons one of the best ways that we're doing

578
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 3: it nowadays is podcasts, just like this one. It's podcasts,

579
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 3: it's social media. It's uh, I mean, that's that's the

580
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 3: way most people are getting their information nowadays. It's they're

581
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 3: not seeing it and there, they're not reading it in

582
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 3: the newspaper and so and so having that compelling story

583
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,720
Speaker 3: and making it relatable to someone in in an urban

584
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 3: environment is probably the key.

585
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not just the beef. It's What's for Dinner campaign,

586
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 1: it's the which I love because I'm a Sam Elliott fan.

587
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: But my stepdad, it's been in the beef industry for generations,

588
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 1: always shook his head at that thing because he just

589
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 1: didn't didn't think that that was the the the all

590
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,919
Speaker 1: the information that we needed to get out there. But yeah,

591
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: Native Habitat, I see some really fantastic accounts that I

592
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 1: love to follow, like a Native Habitat project where they

593
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 1: talk about the importance of fire on the landscape that

594
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: native community and the benefits that it provides soil health,

595
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: certainly on the wild life side of things, pollinators and

596
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 1: all of these native birds, where everything else can be

597
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:10,879
Speaker 1: right for a turkey, a pheasant, quail, but if that

598
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 1: soil isn't alive enough to produce those invertebrates at the

599
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,919
Speaker 1: right time of year. You're just not going to have

600
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 1: birds despite the great thermal cover and the great nesting

601
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: cover and the and the water. Right, it is a

602
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: big community that I certainly don't know well enough despite

603
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 1: loving it. So yeah, it's making those inroads. Jordan, he

604
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 1: had a question earlier about that I think would like

605
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 1: tie into some of these ecosystem benefits regarding like the

606
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 1: disturbance ecology.

607
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I wanted to take us BA a little

608
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 4: bit and dig in a little bit to what specifically

609
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 4: are the benefits of those disturbances that you mentioned, of

610
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 4: fire and of grazing. Why are those good things? And

611
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 4: exactly how does that help the rangeland be healthier and

612
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 4: promote the habitat that we've been talking about.

613
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 3: Great question, and so let me take them one by one,

614
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 3: and so let's talk about fire first. We get this

615
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 3: often just gut reaction. Some people either think fire is great,

616
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 3: some people are scared to death of it. And it's

617
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 3: because of this sort of perception that fire is bad.

618
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 3: All fires bad. You know, there's there's smoky the bear

619
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 3: campaigns that were super effective right at fire is a

620
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 3: bad thing. And I'm not saying well fire is good

621
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 3: at all, but the application of prescribed fire in the

622
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 3: right context is absolutely a good a good thing. And

623
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 3: so it's it's it's trying to in a very prescriptive

624
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 3: way plan for you know, the management of a rangeland landscape.

625
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 3: So let's take, for instance, uh, the Great Plains. One

626
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 3: of our key resource concerns is woody encroachment. Most of

627
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,720
Speaker 3: that woody encroachment is a is a juniper species, eastern

628
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:34,800
Speaker 3: red cedar, and so that's a non root sprouting species.

629
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 3: So if you take off the top with a fire

630
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 3: or mechanically that that plant's done right. Uh. And so

631
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 3: we've talked about some of the reasons why woody encroachment's bad.

632
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:49,280
Speaker 3: It's it's it can impact wildlife habitat, It certainly impacts

633
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 3: forge productivity. And so so fire is beneficial from uh,

634
00:41:55,680 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 3: for maintaining a particular plant community that a land owner

635
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 3: wants to maintain. It also cycles nutrients, and so we're

636
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:10,439
Speaker 3: cycling much of that that those those micro and macro

637
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 3: nutrients back into the soil. You know. One of the things,

638
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 3: one of the one of the rocks that's thrown at

639
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 3: fire and is around carbon, right, because we're losing a

640
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 3: lot of the carbon to the atmosphere. There's been a

641
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 3: number of work that's that's been done in Texas and

642
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 3: other states now, but I'll speak particularly to a study

643
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 3: that was done in Texas where they were they were

644
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 3: implementing fire and cool season fires, and and the carbon

645
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 3: that was lost in the in the fire and through

646
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 3: combustion was re sequestered in a in a cool year

647
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 3: or a wet year, UH in twenty eight days, and

648
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 3: in dry years it was something like eighty days. And

649
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 3: so certainly that first year you got the benefits of

650
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 3: the fire and all of that carbon was resequestered back

651
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 3: into the ground. And so there's there's a number of

652
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:07,959
Speaker 3: benefits there of properly implementing UH prescribed fire on the landscape.

653
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 3: I think I think coupling that with proper grazing management

654
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 3: and so so historically we've talked about the bison and

655
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 3: their their broad scale impacts from a from a cattle

656
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:24,880
Speaker 3: grazing perspective. Really it's about again it's about managing UH

657
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 3: that that plant community too, and so when we see

658
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 3: grazing removed from an environment. Those those plants evolved under

659
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 3: grazing too, right, so they produce about twice what they

660
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 3: need to sustain themselves, to sustain a healthy root system.

661
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 3: And when we start to take grazing out of an environment,

662
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 3: that plant begins to to to that community will tend

663
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 3: to degrade over time. So look at environments in the

664
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 3: West where there's no grazing at all, you'll see you'll

665
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:01,839
Speaker 3: see pocketed plants, You'll see more bare ground. Typically, you'll

666
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:07,359
Speaker 3: see uh oxidized gray plants that that that organic matter

667
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 3: hasn't been you know, converted back into uh to organic

668
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 3: matter and back in through that whole carbon uh sort

669
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 3: of regeneration process. And so by grazing properly, we utilize

670
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 3: some of those forages and uh we we we we

671
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 3: stimulate tillering, UH we stimulate function. Uh we help. Another

672
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 3: benefit is is the dispersion of urine and manure through grazing,

673
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 3: helping through uh you know, from a from a nitrogen

674
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 3: and a nutrient perspective. And so there's a number of

675
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 3: benefits to to grazing. I won't say it's all done right.

676
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 3: I mean, there's certainly landscapes that you can drive in

677
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 3: any direction, and you can see areas that have been

678
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 3: over grazed, but you can also sea land that's very

679
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:10,280
Speaker 3: well managed that have very successful habitat components that support wildlife,

680
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 3: both grassland birds, and you know, the sort of non

681
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 3: game versus game species, and so there's a ton of

682
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 3: different benefits. The point is most of the landscapes that

683
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 3: we manage evolved under some type of fire frequency and

684
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 3: some type of grazing frequency. So if I were to

685
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 3: put both of those together, managing the timing, intensity, frequency,

686
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,800
Speaker 3: and duration of both of those things or what created

687
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 3: and helped the great planes stay the great planes. The

688
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 3: same can be said for Western landscapes, although the fire

689
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 3: frequencies were much longer, but they did have some level

690
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 3: of fire frequency.

691
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: You know, kind of looking at our whole big picture,

692
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 1: kind of zoom out again where we at in rangeland ecology. Right,

693
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 1: So we've gone through a semi wild humans on the landscape,

694
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: implementing some burns, but essentially zero fragmentation of the landscape,

695
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 1: connected ecosystems to ranching comes on the scene, barbed wire

696
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:34,280
Speaker 1: comes on the scene, Jeffersonian grid system, lots of different

697
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:39,800
Speaker 1: management types on the landscape, and now all of a sudden,

698
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 1: you know, here here we are, and we have like

699
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: new threats beyond fragmentation, which would be development, right, like

700
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 1: you don't have the option to convert it back to

701
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 1: anything anymore. Like where I guess where we act in

702
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 1: the rangeland landscape right now?

703
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 3: Well, I think going back to that that earlier sort

704
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 3: of point where we were talking about avoiding conversion, where

705
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 3: we can there is a rangeland restoration pathway, I mean,

706
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 3: we we can restore degraded rangelands. Uh. But I would say,

707
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:24,879
Speaker 3: I guess I would submit once once they go under

708
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 3: the plow, you can seed them back to native species,

709
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 3: but it's never going to be the same prairie that

710
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 3: it once was. Right. That's a that's a defined ecology

711
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 3: with multiple trophic levels and it and it certainly impacts

712
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 3: the health and structure of the soil and the biological

713
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 3: integrity of this oil and so stepping back, I mean,

714
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 3: I think we are on a new frontier on uh,

715
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 3: particularly the soil health front of better understanding how our

716
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 3: management influences soil health dynamics and then these cascading benefits

717
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 3: that we see from managing that way we're seeing. I

718
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:18,919
Speaker 3: would say that technology is becoming much more prominent as

719
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 3: we as we look at the advances in remote sensing,

720
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 3: using tools like light ar to help estimate cover changes,

721
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 3: things like that, even virtual fencing, there's a number of

722
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 3: research opportunities out there, a lot of scientists across the

723
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:44,360
Speaker 3: West looking at virtual fencing opportunities right and limiting infrastructure

724
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 3: costs for producers. And so I think technology is going

725
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 3: to play a key role in the future. But then

726
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 3: stepping back, technology is not going to be the solution

727
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 3: to everything. We have to be grounded in the and

728
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 3: understanding the eclog and those ecological impacts of our actual

729
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 3: management on the land. And so if we make sure

730
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 3: that we understand that technology is a tool to help

731
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 3: us move forward from an ecological perspective, I think we're

732
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 3: in a good state. If we look at technology as

733
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 3: the only answer, I think we're in trouble. It's part

734
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 3: of the story, but I think I think there's been

735
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 3: a keen focus on understanding those ecosystem services and not

736
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 3: only understanding them, but but quantifying them. They're hard to measure, right,

737
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 3: and so there's been a lot of work on the

738
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:41,759
Speaker 3: measurement and the verification of those ecosystem services to help

739
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 3: us tell that story we were talking about earlier.

740
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like I have a great deal of

741
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 1: empathy for every person who's still doing the jobs that

742
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 1: I did growing up.

743
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 2: Right, Like we pushed cattle on weekends, we branded, we

744
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 2: sorted ar intended. I did carpentry, i'd framed. I did

745
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 2: a little little plumbing, a little low voltage electrician work, landscaping,

746
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:15,840
Speaker 2: kind of you name it, right, So I when I

747
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 2: hear about issues and things that affect these things, I'm

748
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 2: I'm I'm generally in a spot where I'm at least

749
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 2: willing to learn more because I've I've seen it from

750
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:33,800
Speaker 2: that point of view. Not everybody has had that opportunity.

751
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 2: They were probably smart enough to put more money in

752
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 2: their bank account early on versus myself, but they they've

753
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 2: deprived themselves of understanding in this case, like a landscape

754
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 2: and what goes in to preserving that landscape in a

755
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:56,439
Speaker 2: way that it still provides all these these benefits. Right,

756
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 2: You're right, like that's that's probably never going to go away.

757
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:04,759
Speaker 2: In fact, we probably don't want people out tramping all

758
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 2: over all this stuff to to really understand it the

759
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:11,919
Speaker 2: way that those of us on this podcast right now

760
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 2: may right, but we do have to like get across

761
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 2: the why the benefits of what undeveloped natural landscapes do

762
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 2: for us for us, all right, And that's that's just

763
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 2: gonna be a tough job.

764
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 3: It is, I you know, but I mean that's why

765
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:39,280
Speaker 3: most of us that that work in the rangeland discipline,

766
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 3: I mean, that's why we wake up every day, is

767
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:45,400
Speaker 3: to we want to make sure that not only the

768
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 3: stewardship of those landscapes continue. And I use that word

769
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 3: because it invokes, uh, the idea that the job is

770
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 3: done by the steward right, and so so it's it's

771
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 3: work working with in in our our case, private landowners

772
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,399
Speaker 3: to make sure that that stewardship happens, make sure they

773
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 3: have the tools, uh, make sure that that that they

774
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 3: have the knowledge that that they need to effectively steward

775
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 3: them in the same same way would be could the

776
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:21,840
Speaker 3: same thing could be said for our public landscapes, ensuring

777
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 3: that that we have a you know, a trained workforce

778
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 3: that can can work with those the permittees and the

779
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:31,359
Speaker 3: ranchers that are that are managing all those landscapes as well.

780
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:36,399
Speaker 3: And so you know, I think again. Uh, stepping back,

781
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,880
Speaker 3: it's it's uh, it's a right and a privilege to

782
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 3: work with these these wonderful range lands, and I'm just

783
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 3: I'm just proud to play a small minute role in it.

784
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:54,279
Speaker 2: Heck, yeah, well I appreciate what you're doing. Uh, and

785
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 2: you know, hopefully.

786
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 1: We'll get to a spot where everybody does because it

787
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:05,799
Speaker 1: is important. And once we turn this stuff over, it's

788
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 1: not coming back.

789
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 3: So I agree, I agree, we were Uh. You know,

790
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,319
Speaker 3: I mentioned this a little bit earlier. I think, uh,

791
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 3: I think the importance around the ecosystem service is important

792
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 3: water specifically. I mean that's a driver for for all

793
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 3: terrestrial agriculture, right, but it's also a driver for for

794
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 3: populations and cities. We got all we all have to

795
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 3: drink and and and and provide habitats for those lands

796
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 3: for those wildlife species. And so that's one that's easier

797
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:40,400
Speaker 3: to get our hand around. I think we're at a

798
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 3: position right now when there's probably more eyes on range

799
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 3: lands from a private perspective, a public and a corporate perspective.

800
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 3: There's there's a there's a lot of focus on on

801
00:53:56,680 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 3: how we're managing both private and public landscapes and we

802
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 3: have an opportunity to do it right and at least

803
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 3: do the best we can with what we have in

804
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 3: front of us, and that's what we're trying to do.

805
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I just hope folks like yourself get the

806
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 1: opportunity to say, hey, this is what we really do,

807
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:20,760
Speaker 1: this is why it matters, because we know there's folks

808
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 1: out there who haven't taken the time yet to understand yep, Yeah, Jeff.

809
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:31,399
Speaker 1: Where can folks go to learn more about the role

810
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 1: of rangeland ecology and why it should matter to us?

811
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 3: Yeah. So we're site for range managements on all most

812
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 3: of the social platforms. We have a you know, we're

813
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 3: on Facebook and Instagram. We have our website is rangelands

814
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 3: dot org. Feel free to go and take a look

815
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 3: at our website if you If you're really interested and

816
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 3: really want to come, we haven't. We host an annual

817
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 3: meeting every year. Next February, we'll be in Monterey, California,

818
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 3: where all of the range land from professor from around

819
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 3: the country will come and we'll be sharing science and

820
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 3: community and discussing listening to to ranchers and academics. I

821
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 3: like talking about how we're trying the best Steward drange lands.

822
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 1: Heck, yeah, well, thank you very much for joining us, Jeff, Grasslands,

823
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 1: range Lance. They matter a whole lot and we're only

824
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,439
Speaker 1: in to keep them if we remember that and share

825
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 1: that education education with others. So thank you very much.

826
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:32,799
Speaker 1: That's all I got for you this week. Remember to

827
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 1: write in to a s k C A L. That's

828
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 1: Askcal at the meteater dot com. Let us know what's

829
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 1: going on in your neck of the woods. And if

830
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 1: you have additional questions for Jeff, we'll either get them

831
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 1: back on here to answer them, or we'll answer them

832
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:53,879
Speaker 1: with his tutelage on the main podcast. Thanks again, we'll

833
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:54,760
Speaker 1: talk to you next week.

834
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:55,799
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me

835
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 2: The n sen at very pressure.