1
00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:12,119
Speaker 1: Five dead women that we know of, possibly twelve, and

2
00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:17,760
Speaker 1: this so called nurse serial killer, Catherine Wood has been released.

3
00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:24,400
Speaker 1: It's amazing to me. Potentially twelve dead bodies. Think about it,

4
00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:30,280
Speaker 1: Think about your mother, your grandmother, lying in a rest home,

5
00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,800
Speaker 1: a nursing home. And to have this evil duo at

6
00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:46,760
Speaker 1: Satan and Billzebub and skirts crime stories with Nancy Grace.

7
00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:56,960
Speaker 1: Suton Mill is a new neighborhood off Harris Road in

8
00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,480
Speaker 1: Fort Mill. No one here was aware that they have

9
00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,000
Speaker 1: a new serial killer, Cathy Wood, and it's just kind

10
00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:07,160
Speaker 1: of surprising. Early, I guess to the least, I have

11
00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,840
Speaker 1: mild concerns. Yeah, I think you'd be an idiot now

12
00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,840
Speaker 1: to have a concern. Would and her girlfriend Gwen Graham

13
00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,839
Speaker 1: killed at least five elderly women at a Michigan nursing

14
00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,720
Speaker 1: home in the eighties and what some called a lover's packed.

15
00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:22,720
Speaker 1: One smothered them with linen's in their beds, while the

16
00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,679
Speaker 1: other acted as a lookout. Prosecutors said they did it

17
00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,280
Speaker 1: to forge a bond between them so one would never

18
00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,520
Speaker 1: leave the other. Police could only prove five killings, but

19
00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,679
Speaker 1: believed there was many as a dozen. Today we ran

20
00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,200
Speaker 1: into Michigan TV reporter Ken Kolker in Fort Mill. He

21
00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,120
Speaker 1: covered the court case thirty years ago for a newspaper.

22
00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,960
Speaker 1: It was bizarre. I mean, we were watching bodies being exhumed,

23
00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:49,240
Speaker 1: you know, going to cemeteries. Yesterday, Kolker went to Tallahassee, Florida,

24
00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:51,720
Speaker 1: to be there for Wood's release from prison. He then

25
00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:53,960
Speaker 1: followed her to her new home in Fort Mill today.

26
00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:59,320
Speaker 1: Good Lord in heaven, how many did bodies does it

27
00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:04,920
Speaker 1: take before you stay in jail forever? I don't understand this.

28
00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,919
Speaker 1: What a lover's packed, my rear end, What a lover's packed?

29
00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:14,639
Speaker 1: That's why one was the lookout while the other smothered

30
00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:19,840
Speaker 1: one little old lady after the next. I Meancy Grace,

31
00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,919
Speaker 1: this is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

32
00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:28,280
Speaker 1: Why and the hey? Has this serial killer been released?

33
00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:30,200
Speaker 1: With me? An all star panel to break it down

34
00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:34,520
Speaker 1: and put it back together again? Judge, trial lawyer, anchor

35
00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:39,640
Speaker 1: Court TV. Ashley Wilcott, Chief of Police one Robins, Georgia,

36
00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:45,079
Speaker 1: A newcomer, John Wagner, South Carolina medical examiner, author, homicide

37
00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,720
Speaker 1: investigation field guy, doctor Michelle Dupree, And boy do we

38
00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,240
Speaker 1: need us shrink? Psychoanalyst to the stars joining us out

39
00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:56,280
Speaker 1: of Beverly Hills. Doctor Bethany Marshall at doctor Bethany Marshall

40
00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,120
Speaker 1: dot com. But right now to crime online dot Com

41
00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:03,040
Speaker 1: Levi pa Age, investigative reporter. Levi, I don't get it.

42
00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:05,960
Speaker 1: Let's just start at the beginning. What can you tell

43
00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:11,160
Speaker 1: me about the nature of the Alpine Manor nursing home murders.

44
00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:16,000
Speaker 1: So this nursing home is in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Nancy

45
00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:20,240
Speaker 1: and in the late eighties, May Mason she seventy nine,

46
00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,720
Speaker 1: she was she died, Edith Cole eighty nine died, Margaret

47
00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:29,720
Speaker 1: Chambers sixty died, and Myrtle Loose ninety five died along

48
00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,960
Speaker 1: with Belle bucknerd seventy four. They all died. They all

49
00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:39,880
Speaker 1: had dementia or Alzheimer's and Nancy the death I'm in it. Wait,

50
00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,200
Speaker 1: I'm in it. What are you a MD? Now? Dementia

51
00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,480
Speaker 1: that's a pretty broad structum. Who spectrum who said they

52
00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,840
Speaker 1: had dementia. That's what's been reported. That's why they preyed

53
00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,440
Speaker 1: on these victims because they were so vulnerable. Nancy. They

54
00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,839
Speaker 1: chose the most vulnerable women at this nursing home to pray.

55
00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,960
Speaker 1: Can you tell me whether it's true that these two

56
00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:08,320
Speaker 1: female killers smothered five women that we know of, trying

57
00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:13,520
Speaker 1: to pick victims who initials would spell murder m U

58
00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,279
Speaker 1: R d R. So your life is just part of

59
00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,280
Speaker 1: a crap sheet. What your last name starts with. Yes,

60
00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,040
Speaker 1: they thought that that would bond them together for the

61
00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,360
Speaker 1: rest of their life, Nancy, but that was too complicated

62
00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:30,040
Speaker 1: to pick out victims with the names that spelled out murder,

63
00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,800
Speaker 1: so they just started doing it to what they considered

64
00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:39,119
Speaker 1: the easiest targets and Nancy. The deaths were initially classified

65
00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:43,760
Speaker 1: as natural causes. They had to actually exhume the bodies

66
00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,440
Speaker 1: and perform an autopsy to discover that they were murdered

67
00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,880
Speaker 1: using a washcloth. They were all suffocated. I don't I

68
00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:55,359
Speaker 1: don't get how it was just naturally assumed they what

69
00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:57,680
Speaker 1: did you say, they naturally assumed they died of what

70
00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,880
Speaker 1: LEVI natural causes? I guess it's because of their age.

71
00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,280
Speaker 1: You know that doesn't sound kosher to me. He just

72
00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,200
Speaker 1: assumes somebody dies of natural causes, and then the bodies

73
00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,520
Speaker 1: start piling up up to twelve. Take a list of

74
00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:14,120
Speaker 1: our friends at w S OCTV. Catherine Wood walked out

75
00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,640
Speaker 1: of this federal prison in Tallahassee today released over the

76
00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,159
Speaker 1: objections of the relatives of the women she helped kill.

77
00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:27,039
Speaker 1: They fear that you'll kill again. It's more than one

78
00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,760
Speaker 1: thousand miles from the old Alpine Man nursing home and

79
00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,359
Speaker 1: walker to the Tallahassee Federal prison that Wood has called

80
00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:37,279
Speaker 1: home for most of the last three decades. But conditions

81
00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,919
Speaker 1: of Wood's paroles show that she won't be coming back

82
00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,400
Speaker 1: to live in Michigan, at least for now. Instead, Target

83
00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:45,200
Speaker 1: eight has learned that she has headed to live with

84
00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,400
Speaker 1: her sister in Fort Mills, South Carolina, a city of

85
00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:54,039
Speaker 1: seventeen thousand people just outside Charlotte, North Carolina. I am

86
00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,960
Speaker 1: glad she's not coming back here, okay, But on the

87
00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,320
Speaker 1: other side of the decline, I sympathize with the people

88
00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,400
Speaker 1: Woods to be living around her wherever she goes. Attorney

89
00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,560
Speaker 1: John Ingman's son in law, Victim May Mason, helped lead

90
00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,080
Speaker 1: the fight to keep Wood locked up after the Michigan

91
00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,960
Speaker 1: Parole Board in twenty eighteen ordered her release. I guess

92
00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,599
Speaker 1: they did fight. I find it very difficult to believe

93
00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,880
Speaker 1: to Ashley Wilcot, judge, trial lawyer, anchor court TV. You

94
00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,040
Speaker 1: can find her at Ashley Wilcot dot com. That over

95
00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,400
Speaker 1: the objections of the victims, five victims that we know of,

96
00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:33,880
Speaker 1: potentially twelve dead bodies, they opposed this so called serial

97
00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:38,479
Speaker 1: nurse killer getting out. Why let her out? Ashley? All right,

98
00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,800
Speaker 1: so we all know that the goal is if the

99
00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,040
Speaker 1: parole board finds that they're not a threat to society

100
00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:46,320
Speaker 1: and it's safe to let them out, that they let

101
00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,720
Speaker 1: them out. But when you have victims protesting, and in

102
00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:54,160
Speaker 1: this case Nancy, don't forget she had been denied parole

103
00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,000
Speaker 1: eight times because they found she was still a danger.

104
00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:02,360
Speaker 1: So I cannot figure out what changed for them to say, oh,

105
00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,080
Speaker 1: she's no longer a danger. I think it was a misstep.

106
00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,320
Speaker 1: Take a listen to friends that would TV target A

107
00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:11,560
Speaker 1: parole board had denied Wood's release eight times before finding

108
00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:15,120
Speaker 1: she was a potential danger and was not remorseful. If

109
00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,560
Speaker 1: I was a neighbor, I'd want to death help that

110
00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:23,040
Speaker 1: we have a siliory of killer living next door. Retired

111
00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,360
Speaker 1: Walker police sergeant Roger Kaliniak, who helped investigate the murders

112
00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,920
Speaker 1: at Alpine Man nursing home in nineteen eighty seven, fears

113
00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,880
Speaker 1: that the fifty seven year old would could kill again.

114
00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,080
Speaker 1: She's a serial killer and she can do it again,

115
00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,840
Speaker 1: and most of them do. Would spent most of her

116
00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,360
Speaker 1: old doll life in the Federal Correctional Institution in Tallahassee,

117
00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,080
Speaker 1: kept separate from her accomplice in the murders, Gwendolen Graham,

118
00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,440
Speaker 1: who was serving life without parole in Michigan. We started

119
00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,200
Speaker 1: talking about killing people. She testified against Graham, saying that

120
00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,680
Speaker 1: Graham had suffocated the victims with washcloths as she acted

121
00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:02,040
Speaker 1: as a lookout. But investigators believed that Wood was more

122
00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,600
Speaker 1: involved and there could have been as many as a

123
00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:27,360
Speaker 1: dozen victims. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. I believe that

124
00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,440
Speaker 1: Cathy Wood was the mastermind. She was the one that

125
00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:38,320
Speaker 1: was poland strings on Guandol and Graham. Guendolen Graham handled

126
00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:42,880
Speaker 1: the dirty work and Cathy Wood was the brains behind it.

127
00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,800
Speaker 1: They killed to bind their love and at first tried

128
00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,920
Speaker 1: to spell murder with their victims initials. The victims, ages

129
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,280
Speaker 1: sixty to ninety eight, all suffered from demetio or Alzheimer's disease.

130
00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:59,000
Speaker 1: Clinia's partner in the investigation, retired Detective Sergeant Tom Freeman,

131
00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,800
Speaker 1: believes that Wood has earned her freedom. She got twenty

132
00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,360
Speaker 1: to forty years in prison in exchange for her testimony,

133
00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:11,880
Speaker 1: but Kaliniac disagrees. Oh, it's a horrific crime that these

134
00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:16,920
Speaker 1: two people were involved in, and I think that both

135
00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:21,120
Speaker 1: of them should be in prison forever. My fear is

136
00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:28,280
Speaker 1: that she will find some old person or old people,

137
00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,319
Speaker 1: incorporate herself into their family, take their property, and take

138
00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:34,520
Speaker 1: their lives, and move on and do it again. You're

139
00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,280
Speaker 1: hearing our friends at Wood TV. That's Target eight reporter

140
00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:43,080
Speaker 1: Ken Kolker. They wanted to spell out murde are like

141
00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:47,400
Speaker 1: a game. Some of these women as young as sixty

142
00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:52,640
Speaker 1: years old. To doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining us out

143
00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:56,920
Speaker 1: of Beverly Hills at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com, Doctor Bethany,

144
00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,439
Speaker 1: what did they hate old people? I don't know understand.

145
00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,760
Speaker 1: I've never heard of that before. Nancy. I've thought so

146
00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,839
Speaker 1: much about this crime. And part of the report is

147
00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,120
Speaker 1: that they had a lover's pack, But I don't believe that.

148
00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,200
Speaker 1: If two men kill in concert, do you say they

149
00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,000
Speaker 1: have a lover's pack? Or did the DC snipers have

150
00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,160
Speaker 1: a lover's pack? No, it's the same psychology as we

151
00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,559
Speaker 1: see with two men killing together. There's usually one ring leader.

152
00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,120
Speaker 1: It's a stronger person that leads the other person along.

153
00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,319
Speaker 1: And I think Wood was the ringleader. Graham did her

154
00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,520
Speaker 1: dirty work. But I also think there's a layer. This

155
00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,800
Speaker 1: is very layered. I think that they resented that these

156
00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,640
Speaker 1: older women were getting their needs met, they were getting

157
00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,720
Speaker 1: their meals, they're being nurtured, they're being visited by their families,

158
00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,079
Speaker 1: and there was a tremendous amount of envy. And this

159
00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:50,800
Speaker 1: is what we see when caregivers kill their patients, whether

160
00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:56,360
Speaker 1: it's a nurse killing a patient or a nanny killing children.

161
00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:00,880
Speaker 1: Usually they feel that this vulnerable person who was receiving

162
00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,120
Speaker 1: nurturing and care is getting something that they're not getting.

163
00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,720
Speaker 1: It makes them envious and they want to strike out

164
00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,800
Speaker 1: and torture and kill. I wonder, doctor Bethany, it was

165
00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,559
Speaker 1: if it was they had to wait on these ladies,

166
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:19,760
Speaker 1: these elderly all day long, and frustration and resentment grew.

167
00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,360
Speaker 1: What about that, doctor Bethany? I think so. There was

168
00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,240
Speaker 1: a case we covered on the Nancy Grace Show many

169
00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:30,400
Speaker 1: years ago of a woman, a nanny who was taking

170
00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,000
Speaker 1: care of an infant who could barely sit up. If

171
00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,199
Speaker 1: you remember this footage, she would throw a ball at

172
00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,040
Speaker 1: the infant all day long. The ball would bounce off

173
00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,200
Speaker 1: the infant, the infant would fall over. She brought the

174
00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,720
Speaker 1: infant up, and then she'd throw this ball at it

175
00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,400
Speaker 1: all day long. And we talked about this. Very thing

176
00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,080
Speaker 1: you're bringing up is that here she had to render

177
00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,000
Speaker 1: care to the infant. She had to a incent weight

178
00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,160
Speaker 1: on the infant, nurture for the infant, care for the infant.

179
00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:01,840
Speaker 1: Sometimes some of these caregivers have very low wages, and

180
00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:06,280
Speaker 1: instead of accessing a part of themselves that can be nurturing,

181
00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,760
Speaker 1: they fall into a state of horrible, horrible resentment. Joining

182
00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:14,360
Speaker 1: me special guest Chief of Police from Warner Robins, Georgia,

183
00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:19,440
Speaker 1: Chief John Wagner. Chief Wagner, how do you believe as

184
00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:24,200
Speaker 1: a career lawman, this makes the police and investigators feel

185
00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:26,880
Speaker 1: when they go through all of this and it's tough

186
00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,000
Speaker 1: to get an order of eximation. Chief Wagner, you know

187
00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,839
Speaker 1: that as well as I do very very tough. They

188
00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:37,559
Speaker 1: go through all of this intricate detective work, follow all

189
00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,720
Speaker 1: the leads, do all of the investigations, and finally secure

190
00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:48,200
Speaker 1: convictions on five female victims, helpless victims. And now this

191
00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:53,400
Speaker 1: woman walks out of jail is about six years behind

192
00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:58,320
Speaker 1: bars per dead body. That's for five victims. I'm not

193
00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,760
Speaker 1: even counting the other seven victims we believe these two

194
00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:06,559
Speaker 1: nuts killed. It's terribly demoralizing. Um for law enforcement in general.

195
00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:09,960
Speaker 1: You put in so much time and work. It's time

196
00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:14,360
Speaker 1: away from family, it's time away from working on other crimes.

197
00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:18,880
Speaker 1: It's it's a lot, and it really is demorlizing for

198
00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:23,120
Speaker 1: all of law enforcement, you know, altogether, but as well

199
00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:28,080
Speaker 1: as the uh the detectives and officers that work that personally. Um,

200
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,000
Speaker 1: you remember all these crimes and specifically this one. You

201
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:38,280
Speaker 1: know this is a serial criminal. Ummue. Why do you

202
00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,040
Speaker 1: say that, Chief Wagner, why do you say she'll do

203
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:45,520
Speaker 1: it again? Because I remember when you're in Vanderslute left

204
00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:51,120
Speaker 1: the country, left uh Neville antilities, and to cough, I said,

205
00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,360
Speaker 1: mark my words, I don't know when and I don't

206
00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:57,520
Speaker 1: know how, but he'll kill again. He will, and he did. Um.

207
00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,600
Speaker 1: You know, J's they've already you know, we're successful with five.

208
00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,800
Speaker 1: You know, the rumor is that there was at least

209
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,920
Speaker 1: a dozen. UM. So they were always trying and in

210
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,320
Speaker 1: some cases they were trying to get better of these

211
00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,199
Speaker 1: five ladies died and they were listed as natural causes.

212
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,760
Speaker 1: And only by speaking to an ex husband did anybody

213
00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,320
Speaker 1: ever find out or suspect that there was another person

214
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:24,040
Speaker 1: or that these these deaths were criminal in themselves. And

215
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,320
Speaker 1: you're right, we have to you have to get warrants

216
00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,280
Speaker 1: to get these folks exumed. Um. There's a tremendous amount

217
00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,280
Speaker 1: of of UM word that you have to get with

218
00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,880
Speaker 1: the judge and paperwork to get persons exumed and and

219
00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,840
Speaker 1: then to go back into do another autopsy and find

220
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,280
Speaker 1: out what was wrong because most of these cases with

221
00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,560
Speaker 1: natural natural cause UM desk, you're just gonna do a

222
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,360
Speaker 1: body inspection. You're not gonna do an autopsy. And and

223
00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,200
Speaker 1: in in some cases, UM, you know, they just may

224
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,200
Speaker 1: be looked at and and do their age and in

225
00:14:55,320 --> 00:15:00,880
Speaker 1: their medical um problems, they you would never suspected that

226
00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,080
Speaker 1: a crime had been committed. Well, indeed, you find out

227
00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,640
Speaker 1: after you've you've dug up five more bodies and find

228
00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,800
Speaker 1: out that they were suffocated, and a lot of that

229
00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:16,560
Speaker 1: stuff you find out through lab results. But again that's sadly,

230
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:18,400
Speaker 1: that's an expectation of what's going to happen in the

231
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,400
Speaker 1: nursing home. And you've prayed on a person that has

232
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:25,560
Speaker 1: Alzheimer dementia, the ones that you run successful with, how

233
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,120
Speaker 1: are you going to interview them? You know they have dementia,

234
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,640
Speaker 1: they couldn't even remember what had happened before, or they

235
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:36,480
Speaker 1: have Alzheimer's, it's expected for them to not remember. So

236
00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,280
Speaker 1: it's really a terribly sad case. You know what, You're

237
00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:43,880
Speaker 1: absolutely right, Chief Wagner. What I don't understand. Doctor Michelle Dupree,

238
00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:49,800
Speaker 1: renowned South Carolina medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide.

239
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,920
Speaker 1: Doctor Dupree, You've got to write another book. I mean,

240
00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,200
Speaker 1: I've already read Homicide Investigation Field Guide. I need more,

241
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,200
Speaker 1: Doctor Duprey. That's something fun for you to do in

242
00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:03,120
Speaker 1: all your spare time. To dupre why wouldn't they do

243
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:07,880
Speaker 1: I had no idea that autopsy were not performed in

244
00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:12,760
Speaker 1: rest homes. You just assume people die of quote old age.

245
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,440
Speaker 1: This is it's a travesty, but in all honesty, for

246
00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:21,080
Speaker 1: the most cases, if an elderly person dies, unfortunately, it

247
00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,760
Speaker 1: is assumed that they died because they were old. I

248
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,680
Speaker 1: often say just because they're old, doesn't mean they died

249
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:31,000
Speaker 1: of natural causes, but given the constraints of most medical

250
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:35,160
Speaker 1: examiner or corner offices, if they are elderly and they

251
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,760
Speaker 1: do have a medical history, then it does not typically

252
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,760
Speaker 1: fall under the jurisdiction of a medical examiner. Medical examiners

253
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,960
Speaker 1: only assumed jurisdictions when there is not a physician who

254
00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,240
Speaker 1: is willing to sign the death certificates. If these patients

255
00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:50,960
Speaker 1: have been under the care of a physician at the

256
00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,160
Speaker 1: nursing home and they have a history of dementia or

257
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:58,520
Speaker 1: other illnesses, they most likely will not get an autopsy,

258
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,400
Speaker 1: and it does not mean that they died from natural

259
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,400
Speaker 1: causes as we see here. Listen. On October sixth, nineteen

260
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,840
Speaker 1: eighty eight, a man named ken Wood arrives at the Walker,

261
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:13,840
Speaker 1: Michigan Police Department with a bizarre tale. Ken Wood proceeded

262
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:18,040
Speaker 1: to tell me that his ex wife had been involved

263
00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:25,520
Speaker 1: with some promicides a local nursing home. Ken's ex wife,

264
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,280
Speaker 1: Cathy Wood, is a nurse's aid at the Alpine Manor

265
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:34,240
Speaker 1: nursing Home. Ken tells police she confessed to helping murder

266
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,200
Speaker 1: five patients with a fellow nurse's aid during the winter

267
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:42,919
Speaker 1: of nineteen eighty seven, Authorities remains silent as he pours

268
00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:47,359
Speaker 1: out the details of his life with Kathy. After a

269
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:52,399
Speaker 1: short courtship with twenty year old ken Wood, Kathy, aged seventeen,

270
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:57,320
Speaker 1: became pregnant and the two were married right away. She

271
00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,760
Speaker 1: gave birth to a daughter in February of nineteen eighty

272
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,520
Speaker 1: I was a new mother. Ken Is really struck by

273
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,320
Speaker 1: the fact that she can't seem to bond with the child.

274
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:11,239
Speaker 1: She's irritated by the child she won't spend time with

275
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:34,879
Speaker 1: her Time Stories with Nancy Grace. On October sixth, nineteen

276
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,040
Speaker 1: eighty eight, a man named ken Wood arrives at the Walker,

277
00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:42,680
Speaker 1: Michigan Police Department with a bizarre tale. Kenwood proceeded to

278
00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,520
Speaker 1: follow me that his ex wife had been involved in

279
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:54,240
Speaker 1: some pomicides a local nursing home. Ken's ex wife, Cathy Wood,

280
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,600
Speaker 1: is a nurse's aid at the Alpine Manor In nursing home.

281
00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:02,720
Speaker 1: Ken tells police infest to helping murder five patients with

282
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,159
Speaker 1: a fellow nurse's aid during the winter of nineteen eighty seven.

283
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,199
Speaker 1: Authorities remains silent as he pours out the details of

284
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,879
Speaker 1: his life with Kathy. After a short courtship with twenty

285
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:19,320
Speaker 1: year old ken Wood. Kathy, aged seventeen, became pregnant and

286
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,119
Speaker 1: the two were married right away. She gave birth to

287
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,960
Speaker 1: a daughter in February of nineteen eighty. I was a

288
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,520
Speaker 1: new mother. Ken is really struck by the fact that

289
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,400
Speaker 1: she can't seem to bond with the child. She's irritated

290
00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,639
Speaker 1: by the child. She won't spend time with her. You

291
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,000
Speaker 1: were hearing our friends at TV show Wicked Attraction, our

292
00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:43,120
Speaker 1: little secret. That was Pete to me a speaking so

293
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:48,320
Speaker 1: many questions swirling about a serial killer whose lover turns

294
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,000
Speaker 1: on her. They have a lover's packed to bind each

295
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:57,240
Speaker 1: other together and they agree to kill we believe twelve

296
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,919
Speaker 1: women in a nursing home. They were prosecuted for five

297
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:06,000
Speaker 1: of those murders. That was a twisted in circuitous route

298
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,960
Speaker 1: to be exposed. Leavi page investigative reporter, Crime online dot

299
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,720
Speaker 1: Com leavi page. How did it unfold? How they ever

300
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,720
Speaker 1: get caught because all of these victims May Mason, Edith Cole,

301
00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:21,639
Speaker 1: Marguerite Chambers, Myrtle Loose, Bill Burkhard, and we believe seven

302
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:26,040
Speaker 1: more were intentionally murdered and it was choked off as

303
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,760
Speaker 1: dying of old age essentially, So how did it all

304
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:33,639
Speaker 1: crack wide open? Levi Page? So Katherine would confessed it

305
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,400
Speaker 1: to her ex husband, and then her ex husband went

306
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:40,600
Speaker 1: to police, and then police arrested Katherine Wood. They questioned

307
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,360
Speaker 1: her and she said, I didn't actually physically commit the murders.

308
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,600
Speaker 1: I was the lookout and it was my lover, Gwendolen

309
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:51,520
Speaker 1: Graham that was the actual killer that suffocated these women.

310
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,479
Speaker 1: They charged Gwendolen Graham with murder and she turned on

311
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 1: her lover and testified against her at trial. Gwendolen Graham

312
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 1: was ultimately convicted. Take a listener friends at Wicked Attraction.

313
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,000
Speaker 1: There was a court her for Nursia's aids there. This

314
00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,680
Speaker 1: seemed to socialize together and many of them were gay.

315
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 1: They spent a lot of their time hanging out at

316
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,919
Speaker 1: a gay club, and Canthy became quickly caught up in

317
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 1: that whole social world, capitol life change. She was having fun.

318
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,919
Speaker 1: They're having parties, going to the gay bars. It's not

319
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,439
Speaker 1: long before she had an affair with one of her

320
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:32,560
Speaker 1: co workers. She had found in a lesbian relationships the

321
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:34,880
Speaker 1: ability to communicate in a way that she never had

322
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,280
Speaker 1: with her husband. She was on an equal par with

323
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,639
Speaker 1: her partner and found it much more rewarding than a

324
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 1: heterosexual relationship. Ken was humiliated and troubled by Kathy's behavior.

325
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 1: That's when he noticed her dark side. You know what,

326
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 1: I appreciate all the information with This doesn't have a

327
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 1: thing to do with whether you're a straight or gay.

328
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:02,720
Speaker 1: This has to do with down right murder. Murder. Take

329
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,439
Speaker 1: a listen to this. Gwen worked in the nursing home.

330
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 1: I didn't pay much attention, but one day I was

331
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 1: sitting in the break room and Gwen walked in, and

332
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,440
Speaker 1: that's the first time I noticed her scars. So I

333
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 1: started watching her a little bit. She made me feel pretty,

334
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 1: She made me feel special. She would do things that

335
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,679
Speaker 1: I wanted to do. The two had a relationship that

336
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 1: lasted nine months before Gwen abruptly moved back to her hometown, Tyler, Texas.

337
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 1: That's when Kathy told Ken that while they were lovers,

338
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 1: they murdered five patients. Walker detectives don't know what to

339
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 1: think with such bold allegations. Police must consider that Ken

340
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 1: is seeking revenge over a failed relationship. Our friends at

341
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 1: Wicked Attraction, well, that lover's pack there was meant to last.

342
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 1: For all I turn on, they only lasted nine months

343
00:22:55,359 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 1: as the body count rose. Sounds like the defendant in

344
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 1: this case. Gwendoline Graham quit and left town. Wow, I

345
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 1: wonder why doctor Bethany Marshall. She couldn't get away fast enough. Well,

346
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 1: can you imagine your lover encourages you to kill other

347
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 1: people and then turns it into a game looking for

348
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,679
Speaker 1: women whose initials spell the word murder? I was thinking,

349
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 1: why don't they just play scrabble at night? No, but seriously,

350
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:31,880
Speaker 1: what this heinous, malicious hatred that you used to rightly said.

351
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 1: I think is fueled and spurred by the fact that

352
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,160
Speaker 1: they have to maybe work wages, work all day long.

353
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 1: They'll example of their patients. A minute, hold it, I'm

354
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: not buying that for one second. Why did you even

355
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 1: say that, doctor Bethany? You know how many jobs I

356
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 1: had at a sandwich shop where I had mopped the

357
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 1: floors and cling the bathrooms, And yes, I did wash

358
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,439
Speaker 1: my hands before I made sandwiches, work till eleven o'clock

359
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 1: at nine, all alone in a strip center where everything

360
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 1: else was closed. I mean, you name it, I did it.

361
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 1: I never thought of killing the customers, doctor Bethany. But

362
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 1: you know, Nancy, it seems to me that that becomes

363
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:15,159
Speaker 1: a rationalization and it exacerbates an underlying murderous aspect to

364
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 1: their personalities. Do you remember the nanny in New York

365
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 1: City that killed three children and piled them in the

366
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: bathtub while I remember the mother was gone taking one

367
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 1: of the fourth child to a swim lesson. And I

368
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:33,919
Speaker 1: looked extensively at that case, because again, another caregiver killing

369
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 1: her charges, and she had a nineteen year old at

370
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 1: home who she felt she couldn't feed, she couldn't send

371
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 1: to school, whose needs were being neglected. So here she's

372
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 1: indulging in taking care of these children that she horribly resents,

373
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 1: all the while living with her own sister and not

374
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: being able to care for the needs of her own child. Now,

375
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,199
Speaker 1: of course that doesn't make someone homicidal, of course not.

376
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: But that is a factor. Nanswer, that's not really what

377
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 1: you said, doctor Bethany. I mean Chief Wagner joining me

378
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 1: out of one of robin as Georgia. Chief Wagner, how

379
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: much does it get under your skin when someone liked

380
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall says things like, well, they were underpaid

381
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 1: and they were overworked. B S. That's right. Now, we've

382
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 1: all worked for little of no wages. And I never

383
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 1: had any homicidal thoughts like any means. Are you sure

384
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 1: about that? Jam? You sure about that? Neither have I

385
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: neither of I want people think I want to kill them.

386
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 1: I actually have never actually thought of killing them. Take

387
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 1: a listen to this. Kathy gives detectives the exact same

388
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,239
Speaker 1: story she told her husband ken Wood. Gwen would roll

389
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 1: up a wash pot and place it over the nose

390
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 1: and mouth of the potential victim and smother them. Today,

391
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 1: according to Kathy's version of events, Gwen killed patients and

392
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 1: orage or quote unquote relieve her at tension. That she

393
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 1: would become very tense, but when she killed somebody she

394
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 1: would always feel better afterwards. These are a kind of

395
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: for thrill killing. Thrill killings are much more an expression

396
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: of a deviant personalities. And if these women kill these

397
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 1: people would be for something crime stories with Nancy Grace,

398
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 1: they would all our favorite phrase they had they'd say,

399
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 1: I love you forever, and then it became I love

400
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 1: you forever in a day, and then it became forever

401
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: in two days. And supposedly each day represented and the

402
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: murder it occurred. So after five murders, it was I

403
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 1: love you for forever in five days, and that was

404
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 1: symbolic of the murderous bond that they had together. But

405
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 1: after a while it became more than Kathy could handle it.

406
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 1: According to Kathy, she took part as a lookout in

407
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: these killings because she was so in love with and

408
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: wanted Gwenn to love her, and was willing to do

409
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: that until it came to the point supposedly that it

410
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 1: was Kathy's turn to kill somebody with Gwen serving as

411
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 1: a lookout, and that was too much for her. That's

412
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: when she supposedly stopped. Soon after Gwen left her for

413
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: another woman. Well, that fizzled out pretty quickly, but in

414
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: the meantime, in just nine short months together, these two

415
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 1: managed to wreak havoc Listen to our friends that wakelt attraction.

416
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: Kathy admits she and Gwen planned the killings together when

417
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,439
Speaker 1: they invented a new game called the Murder Game. In

418
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: the world that Glenn and Kathy existed, they were perfectly

419
00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: matched because what the other one lacked, her partner fulfilled.

420
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 1: And so when you put these two chemicals these two

421
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: things together, it created an explosion, and in an explosion,

422
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 1: people died. The object of the game was to kill

423
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 1: patients in a certain order, so their first initials spelled

424
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 1: the word murder. The problem with spelling out the word

425
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: murder as the homicides occurred was that there were several

426
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: patients that were very active and struggling, and they couldn't

427
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: actually kill them, and so the game itself was spelling

428
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: out the word murder never got finished. You know what

429
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: to think that the life of your mother, or your

430
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: grandmother or your great grandmother. It's just part of a crapshoot,

431
00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 1: a game that these two women came up with to

432
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: leavipage crime online dot Com investigative reporter. It turns out

433
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: that Catherine Wood, the mastermind, flipped on her lover, Gwendolen Graham.

434
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: Gwendolen Graham is still behind bars. Tell me about the

435
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,959
Speaker 1: plea deal. What happened, so she got the possibility of parole.

436
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 1: Catherine Wood did if she would testify for the prosecution

437
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: against Gwendolen Graham, and she did. She testified. Gwendolen Graham

438
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: was convicted. She was sentenced to life without the possibility

439
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: of parole, and Catherine Wood was sentenced to life with

440
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: the possibility of parole, and she's come up for parole

441
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: many times, was denied, and then ultimately was granted parole

442
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 1: despite the fact Nancy, that court documents were released and

443
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 1: they were trying to use these court documents to keep

444
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 1: her behind bars, and they cited the fact that she

445
00:29:55,400 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: said they tried to kill at least ten patients, but

446
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,719
Speaker 1: they fought back, And Nancy, you have to wonder how

447
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: did they get away with trying to kill them and

448
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: these people survived they fought back. Well, when you think

449
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: about it, maybe that's why they preyed on people with

450
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: Alzheimer's and dementia, because a symptom of that is hallucinations.

451
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: Maybe if they tried to tell other personal at the

452
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: hospital or the nursing home, hey, I was attacked, they

453
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: nurses would just say, oh, they're hallucinating. You can't believe them.

454
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: And that's really said. What a feeling of helplessness these victims,

455
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: these patients that lived, must have felt. I mean, Ash

456
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: you Wilcot, judge and trial lawyer, anchor court TV as

457
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: WoT dot com, have you ever seen anything like it? No?

458
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: I mean this is an unbelievable case. And the thing

459
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: that bothers me so much is, yes, they pick very

460
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: vulnerable victims, but I believe individuals like this, they're going

461
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: to find vulnerable victims, whether it's in an old folksome

462
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: or in a daycare. Right. Things are creminals and minds

463
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 1: that are not going to not prey on people, but

464
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: rather they will seek out their victims and kill and kill.

465
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: And I'm shocked this individual was allowed to get out

466
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: of jail. I am too, I mean to doctor Bethany Marshall.

467
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: Psychoanais joining us from Beverly Hills. Doctor Bethany, I've always said,

468
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: when you don't know a horse, look at his track record.

469
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: And I say that usually after one violent offense, because

470
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: if you've got that in you, that well, you will

471
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: commit a violent crime on another person. You can't. I

472
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 1: don't think you can rehab that away. I think that's

473
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: something in you. And I use this example, doctor Bethany.

474
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: Say you're walking along out in Hancock Park and you

475
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 1: see little rabbit cross your path. I don't think your

476
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: instinct is to chase it down and then tear us

477
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: neck out with your teeth. Your instinct may be to pettit.

478
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: But that's the difference between you and someone who was

479
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: prone to commit a violent crime. There's something in them,

480
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: and I don't think that can change. Do you believe

481
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: this woman is still a threat? She's just fifty seven

482
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: years old, Nancy. She's a threat because she actually has

483
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,479
Speaker 1: a compulsion to kill. This is not just a crime

484
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 1: of passion, which I still think is always premeditated pretty much.

485
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: This is something that they thought out over time. It

486
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: was very compulsive, it was very methodical. I think she

487
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: will strike again, and even not an overway such as

488
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: actually committing murder, small types of behaviors that lead up

489
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: like a ritualistic around the final act of murder. For instance, sadism.

490
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: These two were sadists. Would was a sadist. And so

491
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: we know of these victims who die because they murder them,

492
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: But what about all the smaller acts of sadism, maybe

493
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: like hitting them over the head, or you know, tying

494
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: their clothing too tightly, pushing food down their throat. You

495
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: know a lot of scoff must have happened to these

496
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: victims before they were finally killed. And so what is

497
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: going to have many vulnerable people around her? I think

498
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: it's so fascinating that the insect. Wait a minute, you've

499
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: got to hear something, Bethany, It's exactly what you're saying.

500
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: Listen to this. These are games, by all accounts, were

501
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: instigated by Kathy. They switched patients from room to room,

502
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 1: putting them in the wrong rooms to confuse other staff members.

503
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: According to co workers, when in Kathy's antics, when far

504
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: beyond seemingly harmless pranks, Kathy seemed to get a thrill

505
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: out of stirring up trouble. She would call the husbands

506
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: and say, do you have any idea what your wife

507
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: is doing? And then she would talk to the wife

508
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: and say, do you have any idea what her husband

509
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: is doing? Planning half truths among people, keeping the place

510
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: in turmoil, keeping the place in drama. She seemed to

511
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: get a kick out of exerting control over people's lives.

512
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: When asked if they thought Kathy and Gwen killed five patients,

513
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: the nurse's aids are divided. Some of the co workers

514
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: thought that possibly these murders did occur, and some didn't

515
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: believe it. They didn't think that they were capel doing that. Yeah,

516
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:18,879
Speaker 1: I don't think they killed five patients either. I think

517
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: they killed at least twelve patients. But hey, that's just me.

518
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 1: You're hearing our friends that we could attraction our little secret.

519
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 1: I mean, circle back to doctor Bethany Marshall changing patience

520
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: from room to room to confuse patience and staff. These

521
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: old people that are helpless, starting up trouble, causing a

522
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 1: husband calling a husband, suggesting the wives having an affair,

523
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 1: calling the wife, you know, vice versa, just causing all

524
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 1: sorts of draw a planting half truths among co workers.

525
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: And it was all a game to them. What is that.

526
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: I've never really heard of anything like that, doctor Bethany Dadley, Nancy,

527
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: I have. This is a very poor feature of something

528
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: that we call cluster B personality style. Cluster B is

529
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: a grouping of borderline sociopathy and narcissism. These three personality

530
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 1: disorders when they clustered together, what you find it usually

531
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: at the female that the poison in their mind they

532
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: seep into everybody else around them. They love to dump

533
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: toxic psychological waste on people. Have you ever had someone

534
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 1: in their life, Nancy, where whenever you were around them,

535
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: they just seem to cause trouble everywhere in your life

536
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: and you don't even know how it happened. It just

537
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: happened at the speed of light. They plant out, They

538
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 1: bring negative legal consequences into your life. They make you

539
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: suspicious of your own spouse. This is this kind of

540
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,919
Speaker 1: personality disorder they stir every time. I mean, I've really

541
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 1: never been suspicious of David. Once I broke into is email,

542
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:54,959
Speaker 1: I thought I was going to pass out. My eyes

543
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 1: were bleeding. It was so boring. No, I'm not suspicious

544
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: of David. I love him, but no, go ahead, I

545
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 1: remember you mentioning that once on air. Nancy just cracked

546
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 1: me up. But it's true that these people like to

547
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: push poison into the lives of people around them. And

548
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 1: I think it's a part of sadism. I think they're bored.

549
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: I think they're envious. I don't think they want other

550
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: people to be happy, so they keep things stirred up.

551
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 1: And I think also these women may have hated men

552
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: as well, and so to call them the husbands and

553
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: say your wife's having an affair. And they were also

554
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: envious of people who had happy relationships, you know, So

555
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: they're planning a set of doubt in relationships and people

556
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 1: with dementia are very reliant on having a predictable environment, right,

557
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 1: even when we know what sundowners is. When I so

558
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 1: longer light outside and the sun goes down, they start

559
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: to get confused. So they took their patient's core vulnerability

560
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: and they preyed upon it to leave page. Catherine is

561
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: arguably one of the most high profile US serial killers

562
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,280
Speaker 1: to get out of prison recently. What do you think

563
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 1: she can expect the outside, Well, Nancy, she is living

564
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 1: now in South Carolina, outside of Charlotte, and this is

565
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 1: a very high profile case, Nancy, so you can bet

566
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,919
Speaker 1: that the tongues will be wagging. She's fifty seven years

567
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 1: old now, and I'm assuming that she would probably, if

568
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,240
Speaker 1: she was smart, would lead a very low profile life.

569
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,439
Speaker 1: But who knows a lot of these people they get

570
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 1: out of prison and they reoffend, even though they were

571
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 1: given the chance of a lifetime considering the crimes they committed. Well, true, true.

572
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 1: I mean to Chief Wagner, John Wagner joining us from

573
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: one robin, Chief Wagner, I hope the cops are on

574
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: her like a cheap suit, all over her. If she's

575
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,479
Speaker 1: so much as Jaywalks, I want her back in jail

576
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: and I'm sorry it's come to this, but really, police

577
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 1: are so thinly distributed. How can they monitor this one woman. Well,

578
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 1: you're correct with it, Nancy, and you know, I'm sure

579
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: the Pearl board will be doing visits with her. But

580
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 1: um but yeah, well local law enforcement wouldn't even know,

581
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: and that will be always good bug in the back

582
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 1: of their ear. Don't you remember the case of J. C. Duger?

583
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 1: Do you remember that, Ashley Willcott, let me just jog

584
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: chief Why? Oh? He say? He remembers that this girl

585
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: had been kidnaped when she was a little girl. By

586
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: the time the fans finally found her with a convicted

587
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: criminal that they were supposed to be checking on, he

588
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 1: had already built a shed in the backyard and she'd

589
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 1: had two children by him. So I'm not relying on

590
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 1: home visits by part and parole. Please Ashley help me.

591
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 1: H No, I completely agree. You also hear stories where

592
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,280
Speaker 1: sex offenders are living in fact close to a school

593
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: bus stop right or a school where they're not supposed

594
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 1: to live, and they may be under pearls. So it

595
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 1: doesn't solve the issue of criminals who are predisposed to

596
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,240
Speaker 1: the primes that are committed, which I believe a serial

597
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 1: killer is and is not going to just let go

598
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: of being a serial killer. They are going to continue

599
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: criminal activity regardless of whether or not someone is checking

600
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 1: on them. We wait as justice unfolds. At least your

601
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,359
Speaker 1: codefendant still behind bars. Nancy Grace Crime Story, signing off,

602
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 1: goodbye friend,