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Speaker 1: Y'all, we got somebody with us tonight. She is lightning

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Speaker 1: in a bottle. I had a chance to be with

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Speaker 1: her at the Hamptons.

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Speaker 2: Who done it?

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Speaker 1: And when I tell you, not just from the stage,

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Speaker 1: but in the hallway at dinner, she is just a light.

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Speaker 2: You cannot ignore this woman.

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Speaker 1: She is a former Assistant District Attorney of Montgomery County, Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 1: She is known as the person that when it comes

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Speaker 1: to sex crimes and civil rights and domestic violence and

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Speaker 1: elder abuse, she's who you go to. She got her

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Speaker 1: BS degree from Lafayette College.

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Speaker 2: And her law degree from Temple.

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Speaker 1: She grew up in new and let me tell you something,

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Speaker 1: she's got that garden city attitude.

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Speaker 2: Baby.

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Speaker 1: She ain't scared of nothing. And if you need somebody

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Speaker 1: to fight for you, this is your girl.

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Speaker 2: Now. I just said real quick.

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Speaker 3: Oh.

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Speaker 1: She got her b YESTEGRAE at Lafayette and I moved on.

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Speaker 1: It was in neuroscience. So when I tell you she's brilliant,

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Speaker 1: I mean she's brilliant. And it wasn't enough that she

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Speaker 1: had to study neuroscience. Then she had to go become

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Speaker 1: a financial analyst. Then she had to become an attorney.

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Speaker 1: So again, there's all kinds of things we can talk

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Speaker 1: to her about that she could, you know, pontificate on

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Speaker 1: as long as she wants to. She is best known

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Speaker 1: for her work as the prosecutor on the Bill Cosby case.

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Speaker 1: And let me tell you what she did that first

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Speaker 1: time that jury was deadlocked. She left the DA's office,

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Speaker 1: went to a fantastic stick private law firm. When they

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Speaker 1: brought the case back, she went back as a special

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Speaker 1: prosecutor and child she gave a closing statement that was legendary,

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Speaker 1: and of course that resulted in a conviction. And we're

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Speaker 1: going to get all into that in a minute. She

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Speaker 1: has won many awards, but just one I will tell

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Speaker 1: y'all about. In twenty eighteen, the Victim Rights Law Center

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Speaker 1: awarded her with their Leadership Award. Ladies and gentlemen, please

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Speaker 1: help me welcome Kristin Gibbons Veddin Mack.

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Speaker 3: You are too kind. You are just too kind.

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Speaker 1: I have been just on cloud nine waiting to talk

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Speaker 1: to you, because in our short time together in the Hamptons,

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Speaker 1: I enjoyed every second we spent together.

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Speaker 2: You were engaging, you.

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Speaker 1: Were funny, you were smart, you were quick to help,

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Speaker 1: and one little side note. I want everybody to know

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Speaker 1: we did a whining crime there on Melissa Wolfenberger's case,

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Speaker 1: where you jumped in and said, I'm here, anything I

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Speaker 1: can do. You answered questions for people, you came up

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Speaker 1: with the ways to make the case stronger, and not

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Speaker 1: just you, but your husband, Nicholas jumped in too, and

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Speaker 1: that to me was such a remarkably kind thing to do.

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Speaker 1: So I just want to tell both of you again,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for doing that. Her family is

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Speaker 1: just so honored that to elite attorneys like the two

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Speaker 1: of you would assist on their daughter's case. So thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for that too.

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Speaker 3: Oh man, thank you, and thank you for sharing that

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Speaker 3: case with us.

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Speaker 1: So one thing you said was, and I quote, I'm loud,

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Speaker 1: and I don't like it when people are picked on.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, you know what, she and I can be

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Speaker 2: friends because you know, so many.

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Speaker 1: Times in the South, you know, young girls are told,

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Speaker 1: you know, be soft spoken, be agreeable, you can get

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Speaker 1: more with sugar, you know, all those sorts of things.

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Speaker 1: So for you to say that, own it and then

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Speaker 1: teach other people, raise your voice if you need to

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Speaker 1: wake some folks up. So tell us a little bit

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Speaker 1: about how you use that voice of your.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting you say that, Mac. I, like

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Speaker 3: I said, am very loud, and it's something that you know,

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Speaker 3: a lot of people not only tell me, but the

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Speaker 3: most important people who have told me that it's my

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Speaker 3: mom and dad. They always tell me how loud I am.

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Speaker 3: But most importantly, it's effective because sometimes and maybe it's

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Speaker 3: because I'm a woman in society, maybe it's because I'm

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Speaker 3: a black woman in society, but a lot of times,

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Speaker 3: as women, and you know this, Mac, particularly in male

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Speaker 3: dominated professions, we talk, but sometimes for some strange reason,

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Speaker 3: we are not heard.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 3: And it doesn't matter how loud we talk, Yes, right,

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Speaker 3: A lot of times we have to yell to the

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Speaker 3: top of our lungs to be heard. And you know what,

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Speaker 3: sometimes even then we're not We're not heard. But I

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Speaker 3: think we're The things is that we're effective. We speak loud,

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Speaker 3: But the most important thing is we're effective when we speak.

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Speaker 3: When we speak, we are sharp like lightning. And most importantly,

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Speaker 3: particularly in both of our professions, we give a voice

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Speaker 3: to those who have been silenced by their perpetrator, and

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Speaker 3: we provide them with the voice that they need and

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Speaker 3: that they want so that they can speak for themselves.

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Speaker 3: A lot of our survivors that I have the pleasure

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Speaker 3: of representing have been choked and silenced in that fashion.

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Speaker 3: They have been sexually violated and mac like you, I've

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Speaker 3: represented homicide survivors and so they have been silenced in perpetuity.

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Speaker 3: And so yes, I like to make sure that I

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Speaker 3: provide that voice because, like I said, I don't like

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Speaker 3: people who like to sexually assault others, who like to

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Speaker 3: choke and domestically assault people, and I certainly don't like

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Speaker 3: those who like to kill, kidnap or harm other people.

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Speaker 1: Right on, And you know what something else you said,

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Speaker 1: And I want to give everybody this the next time

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Speaker 1: somebody says, why are you yelling or she's just yelling,

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Speaker 1: Kristen said, and I quote, I'm not yelling. I'm adjusting

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Speaker 1: volume appropriately to communicate my message effectively. Boom, there you go.

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Speaker 1: So I'm adjusting my volume appropriately.

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Speaker 2: No, that's just genius.

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Speaker 1: And again, I think for you to be able to

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Speaker 1: tell other people women, young ladies, go ahead and use

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Speaker 1: that voice. And if you've got to turn that volume up, baby,

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Speaker 1: turn it up.

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Speaker 3: That's right. And I think one of the things That's

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Speaker 3: really important too, is that there's such a large community.

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Speaker 3: Right So when I walked into the who done it

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Speaker 3: with the Hamptons. I'm a little bit of an introvert,

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Speaker 3: believe it or not, Mac, and you provided me with

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Speaker 3: the voice that made me comfortable to speak out and

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Speaker 3: be myself. You, Lisa, I mean, you guys were just

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Speaker 3: so welcoming, and so I like to also perpetuate that

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Speaker 3: on other people. And whether it be crimes that silence

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Speaker 3: individuals or just societal barriers, I think it is so

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Speaker 3: important to be effective with welcoming others and making sure

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Speaker 3: that they feel comfortable and safe to voice their opinions.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, and you know, we met at Crime Con, but

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Speaker 1: it was literally like in Passon, and I was so

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Speaker 1: grateful to the Hamptons because that was like a weekend

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Speaker 1: just hanging out with friends. We had time to go

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Speaker 1: to dinner with each other, we had the time to

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Speaker 1: really sit and talk, and afterwards they provided all these

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Speaker 1: different little environments where whether it was the welcoming party,

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Speaker 1: which was extraordinary, oh my gosh, and that view and

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Speaker 1: you know, everything was just so quaint and perfect that

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Speaker 1: I left there literally, you and Barbara Butcher.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I just felt like I have added friends.

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Speaker 1: I mean, obviously I'd known Lisa and Joe Scott for

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Speaker 1: years and years, but I hadn't really had a chance

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Speaker 1: to know you and Barbara, even though I was a

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Speaker 1: fan of both of you and respected you terribly. But

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Speaker 1: I left there literally thinking, gosh, I have added two

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Speaker 1: really incredible people. So that's one thing I love about it.

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Speaker 2: Now. You were able to do.

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Speaker 1: One thing that I don't know that I've ever heard

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Speaker 1: of an attorney doing. You got two judgments that were

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Speaker 1: both eight figures in one day.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: That must have been like, honey, everybody can quit their

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Speaker 1: job in my family, Like.

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Speaker 3: What I mean.

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Speaker 2: I remember thinking it was a big deal. You know,

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Speaker 2: when I got that first full time job, I thought

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Speaker 2: this is coming every two weeks, like you know, mama

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Speaker 2: can retire, you know.

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Speaker 1: But I can't imagine two eight figure verdicts on the

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Speaker 1: same day, and one was R Kelly.

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Speaker 2: So congratulations on that alone.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that was an amazing day because mac I not

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Speaker 3: on with the R. Kelly case. There were six different

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Speaker 3: plaintiffs that I had the pleasure of representing. And then

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Speaker 3: on the other case, it was a physician who had

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Speaker 3: sexually abused a child who is now at that point

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Speaker 3: an adult, but he had sexually abused her over the

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Speaker 3: course of several years to the point where she has

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Speaker 3: suffered such psychological effects and impacts from the sexual violence,

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Speaker 3: and say he perpetrated on her, that she was mute,

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Speaker 3: she had multiple personalities associated personality disorder PTSD, and just

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Speaker 3: in an extremely vulnerable state. And I was able to

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Speaker 3: make seven calls and just hear the joy of seven

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Speaker 3: different of my clients because we had received multimillion dollar

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Speaker 3: verdicts for each and every one of them, and that

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Speaker 3: was the most rewarding part of all and most importantly,

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Speaker 3: you know, at the end of the day, I represent

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Speaker 3: survivors of crime. They just want to be heard, and

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Speaker 3: for all seven of those individuals, they were heard and

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Speaker 3: mac to add to that, and I love that I'm

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Speaker 3: able to say this today, that that one young lady

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Speaker 3: who was sexually abused by that pediatrician. Unfortunately, she was

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Speaker 3: one of one hundred and five survivors that I was

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Speaker 3: representing who had all been sexually abused while they were

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Speaker 3: pediatric patients. And I'm glad to say as as we

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Speaker 3: sit here right now of the awards of all of

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Speaker 3: those individuals, we have reached over one billion dollars and

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Speaker 3: the awards are still coming in, and there are another thirty,

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Speaker 3: well a little under thirty, maybe twenty five young women

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Speaker 3: who have not been heard yet.

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Speaker 1: Well, bless you because they deserve every freaking dome. They

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Speaker 1: need help. They're gonna need help from now own. They're

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Speaker 1: gonna need counseling, They're gonna need medical help if they

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Speaker 1: can ever trust somebody again. They're gonna need to feel

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Speaker 1: safe in a decent home. I mean, what you have

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Speaker 1: done is saved their lives. Well, let me just ask

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Speaker 1: you this, after, you know, getting an eight figure settlement,

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Speaker 1: did you ever feel like walking into your old bank

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Speaker 1: and saying, hey, can I get a loan? I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't need one.

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Speaker 2: I don't need a loan ever again.

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Speaker 3: You know, Mac, I wanted to do that. Unfortunately I

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Speaker 3: can in this circumstance because there's a great likelihood that

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Speaker 3: we will not get paid or that those survivors will

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Speaker 3: see a penny. You know, this was particularly the pediatrician

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Speaker 3: where we obtained at this point over a billion dollars

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Speaker 3: in awards. You know, he was in a private practice.

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Speaker 3: He did not have the requisite insurance to compensate these

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Speaker 3: young ladies.

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Speaker 1: Okay, hold on, hold on. I already loved Joe, I

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Speaker 1: already respected you. But now you're telling me you took

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Speaker 1: on this massive case. Know when you're not going to

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Speaker 1: make a don.

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Speaker 3: You got it. And most importantly, and I think this

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Speaker 3: is really where the highlight goes. Mac. Is one of

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Speaker 3: the things with me and my representation, I like to

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Speaker 3: be very transparent. And so each and every one of

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Speaker 3: these wonderful women decided that they understood they may not

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Speaker 3: see a penny, but they wanted to be heard. And

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Speaker 3: when I heard how pervasive I mean, Mac, three young

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Speaker 3: ladies came to me. Three turned into fifteen. Fifteen turned

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Speaker 3: into twenty, twenty, turned into fifty until we add one hundred,

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Speaker 3: and we had one hundred and nine at one point.

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Speaker 3: And I'll tell you, Mac, I spoke to probably twice

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Speaker 3: as many who had been victimized in that manner who decided,

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Speaker 3: you know what, I am not interested in being further traumatized.

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Speaker 3: But I just wanted to let you know that those

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Speaker 3: women are telling the truth because it happened to.

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Speaker 2: Me unbelievable numbers.

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Speaker 1: And you know I've gotten flag before because I have said,

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Speaker 1: nobody rapes one time.

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Speaker 2: If somebody's a rapist, they're a rapist.

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Speaker 3: That's right. And you know that it's about that power dynamic, right,

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Speaker 3: And so it's not about sexual gratification. It's not about

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Speaker 3: being intoxicated and whoops, I didn't know, which is the

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Speaker 3: common narrative. It is absolutely not about that. It is

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Speaker 3: about being a sexual predator and believing one has such

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Speaker 3: a great power that he or she can sexually pray

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Speaker 3: when someone else, and most importantly, targeting individuals that they

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Speaker 3: perceive as vulnerable, such as in this case, pediatric patients

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Speaker 3: such as an R. Kelly or Cosby, individuals who may

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Speaker 3: want modeling careers or may seeking career advice, and he

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Speaker 3: just viewed them as vulnerable and decided to pray on them.

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Speaker 3: It's horrific.

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Speaker 2: Kristin.

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Speaker 1: There's been laws that have been changed, and there's one

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Speaker 1: thing that I think is really an interesting thing that

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Speaker 1: they're doing. Talk a little bit about the revival weinda.

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Speaker 3: A revival window is such an amazing piece of legislation

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Speaker 3: because what it does is it allows a survivor who

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Speaker 3: would not otherwise be able to bring forth a lawsuit

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Speaker 3: because of the expiration of the statue limitations surrounding that lawsuit,

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Speaker 3: it allows them to bring forth that lawsuit as if

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Speaker 3: they were not barred by the statue limitation. And what

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Speaker 3: that really means ultimately when we talk about it in

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Speaker 3: everyday language, it allows survivors of childhood sexual abuse, and

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Speaker 3: in some jurisdictions survivors of adult sexual abuse to bring

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Speaker 3: forth a lawsuit and obtain justice against their offender in

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Speaker 3: the civil litigation round and mac, as you pointed out,

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Speaker 3: civil litigation is extremely important because it allows those survivors

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Speaker 3: to obtain counseling, It allows them to obtain different environments.

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Speaker 3: Of one of the victims that I had the pleasure

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Speaker 3: of representing, she was sexually violated in her home and

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Speaker 3: one of the things she wanted to do but money

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Speaker 3: prevented her from being able to do it was just

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Speaker 3: move out of her house getting bed because she did

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Speaker 3: not want to be retriggered every time she went to

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Speaker 3: go lay down in her bed. And so this allows

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Speaker 3: survivors to get the peace of mind they absolutely deserve.

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Speaker 3: The civil litigation system is to make an individual whole,

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Speaker 3: and while money does not make one hole, it certainly

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Speaker 3: helps them to get a fresh start and develop the

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Speaker 3: cooking strategies they need to heal because unfortunately, no one

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Speaker 3: can eliminate the trauma.

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Speaker 1: And you know, the trauma sometimes continues in different ways.

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Speaker 1: So if you are sexually abused, like your clients in

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Speaker 1: the case where they were literally children, then when they

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Speaker 1: become sexually active, that's going to have a whole new

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Speaker 1: thing to deal with. When they have their own children,

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Speaker 1: that's a whole new thing. Now I'm worried about this

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Speaker 1: person being harmed the way I was. It doesn't just hey,

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Speaker 1: this happened when you were nine, deal with it.

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Speaker 2: That's in the past. It's never in the past.

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Speaker 3: That's right. It has such profound, pervasive, longstanding, and irreparable

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Speaker 3: effects and impacts on individuals. I have represented so many

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Speaker 3: different survivors, and there is no typical response or trauma.

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Speaker 3: But what we do see, as you pointed out, Mac,

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Speaker 3: and I'm so glad that you're highlighting this, is it

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Speaker 3: can cause fertility issues. It can cause physical manifestations of

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Speaker 3: some type of physical trauma, even though much of it

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Speaker 3: is mental. I have one young lady who wanted so

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Speaker 3: bad to have children but couldn't develop the requisite or

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Speaker 3: necessary like desire to have children because she had been

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Speaker 3: sexually violated and it was just over consuming her life.

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Speaker 3: I had another survivor who was so scared of men

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Speaker 3: because she had been sexually abused in that manner that

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Speaker 3: she would not leave her home. I had another young

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Speaker 3: lady who was victimized by that pediatrician that we discussed,

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Speaker 3: who wouldn't go to a gynecologist, and you know that

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Speaker 3: that can now cause her to engage in him increased

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Speaker 3: risk of harm because she's not getting the preventive care

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Speaker 3: that she needs. Some of the young ladies would not

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Speaker 3: engage in sexual intercourse because every time they would get

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Speaker 3: close to another individual, they would have a pervasive effect

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Speaker 3: and it would be painful or they would be disgusted,

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Speaker 3: and so they just opted not to do that. It

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Speaker 3: has such profound impact on individuals.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I've always had a problem with the

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Speaker 1: term sex crimes because it tells you something that's false.

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Speaker 1: In the title. It has nothing to do with sex.

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Speaker 1: And it's like I've told people, somebody could hit you

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Speaker 1: in the head with a rake, and we don't call

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Speaker 1: it gardening. So why in the world, just because right,

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Speaker 1: it's so true, so true, and I don't like, you know,

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Speaker 1: marital rate, stranger and stranger rate, date you know, all.

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Speaker 2: Of those things. To me, Lessen what it is. It's

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Speaker 2: rape just because I've dated.

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Speaker 1: This person, or I'm married to this person, or I

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Speaker 1: work with this person, or I've never seen this person before.

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Speaker 2: It's the same.

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Speaker 1: We don't have date murder. We don't have strangers, you

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Speaker 1: know what I mean, We don't have that sounds so stupid.

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Speaker 1: What happened to her, old girl, It was a date murder.

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Speaker 1: Like what I mean, it should be murder, that's it,

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Speaker 1: and it should meet those elements. And again talking about

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Speaker 1: putting together a massive, massive case, Kristen, when it came

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Speaker 1: to Cosby.

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Speaker 2: I can't imagine. Number one.

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Speaker 1: It's Bill Cosby, and for the most part, everybody probably

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Speaker 1: liked him. He was America's dad. He was that person

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Speaker 1: that lifted people up. He was funny for all intentsive purposes,

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Speaker 1: what we thought was true of him. He was gracious

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Speaker 1: and giving, and people like Felicia Rashad respected and loved him.

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Speaker 1: And it seemed like he had all these great friends

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Speaker 1: and this wonderful life. And to your point when you

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Speaker 1: were talking earlier, one victim turns into five and ti

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Speaker 1: you know, five turned into fifteen, and fifteen turned into forty,

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Speaker 1: and forty turned into sixty, and at some point you're like,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, one or two people might make some

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Speaker 1: stuff up to try to get some money from you.

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Speaker 2: Sixty, You freaking did it.

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Speaker 3: Right where they smoke, there's fire.

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Speaker 1: So they come to you and they're like, Okay, you're

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Speaker 1: the expert here.

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Speaker 2: We want you to take on Cosby. Tell us your

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Speaker 2: work day, tell us how you possibly in a war room.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I know you lost time with your husband

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Speaker 1: and children. I know there were probably you know, did

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Speaker 1: I even go to Thanksgiving? I mean, I know, I

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Speaker 1: know what this undertaking was like. But just talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about how you you know, prepped for this

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Speaker 1: case and what you did, and then we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: round one and round two.

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Speaker 3: So it's really interesting you say that, Mac. You know,

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Speaker 3: this was a massive undertaking, but quite frankly, it was

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Speaker 3: what I did every day at that time. I was

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Speaker 3: a prosecutor and I handled crimes of sexual violence, homicide,

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Speaker 3: domestic violence day and day out. It was a trial attorney.

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Speaker 3: But most importantly, whenever you're dealing with these types of crimes,

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Speaker 3: I think one of the most important, important important things

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Speaker 3: is to build a rapport with the survivor. And I

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Speaker 3: think that's important because a lot of times these crimes

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Speaker 3: work to diminish that person's dignity, take away their voice,

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Speaker 3: silence them. And what I want to make sure that

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Speaker 3: I always do when I'm representing individuals, and when I

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Speaker 3: was a prosecutor, i represented the entire state or the

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Speaker 3: county of county. I want to make sure that I

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Speaker 3: bring justice to all of those who had been aggrieved.

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Speaker 3: And in this particular case, it was Ondreia Constant, so

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Speaker 3: day and day out, I wanted to make sure she

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Speaker 3: knew right what was going on the status of things.

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Speaker 3: But then we also had additional witnesses. Her mother was

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Speaker 3: a witness, her brother in law was a witness, and

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Speaker 3: then we had other survivors who were also prior act witnesses.

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Speaker 3: So I wanted to make sure each and every one

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Speaker 3: of them felt that they had a voice, that they

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Speaker 3: had someone they could go to. And it wasn't always

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Speaker 3: me mac. I worked on a team with other prosecutors,

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Speaker 3: but most importantly other advocates. Victim Services Center in Norristown,

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Speaker 3: which provides advocates, therapists, court accompaniments were also a major

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Speaker 3: part of this and every single case that I have

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Speaker 3: represented survivors in. So it was a massive undertaking, but

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Speaker 3: I think one of the most important things was making

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Speaker 3: sure that justice would be served. I can't I cannot, ever,

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Speaker 3: you know, fix the result. I will never be able

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Speaker 3: to say whether or not the result will be guilty,

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Speaker 3: not guilty, liable or not liable. But what I can

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Speaker 3: do is listen to the survivor, find out what justice

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Speaker 3: looks like for him or her, and make sure that

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Speaker 3: that is accomplished through my work, working tirelessly. And that's

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Speaker 3: what we tried to do for Andrea Constant was bring

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Speaker 3: her back, give her the human dignity she deserved. Initially

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Speaker 3: as part of that undertaking, you know, with the story

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Speaker 3: of Bill Cosby, she was sexually abused. A year later

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Speaker 3: she went to the police and they declined prosecution. And

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Speaker 3: this was before I had gotten to the office, but

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Speaker 3: it was still Nevertheless my office. We prosecuted the case

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Speaker 3: fifteen years later. So building her more in that particular case,

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Speaker 3: in addition to all of the trial work, was of

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Speaker 3: paramount importance because we wanted her to cooperate, but also

398
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Speaker 3: because we wanted to make sure she understood it wasn't

399
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Speaker 3: going to be the same way as last time. Every

400
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Speaker 3: prosecutor is a right to decline a case, but in

401
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Speaker 3: that particular case, she really didn't find out that her

402
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,919
Speaker 3: case had been declined until she saw it on the

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Speaker 3: news map.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, no, she.

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Speaker 3: Found out on the news. So as one of the

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Speaker 3: things that I had to do in the closing argument,

407
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Speaker 3: but also throughout the entirety of the case, wasn't apologize

408
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Speaker 3: on behalf of my office even though I wasn't there,

409
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Speaker 3: but just so that she understood that I was going

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Speaker 3: to make sure that justice would be served again. I

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Speaker 3: cannot guarantee a result, but what I can do is

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Speaker 3: make sure that every single prosecutor, including myself, puts their

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Speaker 3: best foot forward when we prosecute crimes.

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Speaker 1: Did you have a way of blocking out the social

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Speaker 1: media because you know, we talked a little bit in

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Speaker 1: the Hamptons, but you know, every now and then there's

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Speaker 1: a little racism, little sexism. You know, sounds fun, but

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Speaker 1: people coming at you because you know, how dare you

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Speaker 1: do this to an icon?

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Speaker 2: How dare you do this to your community? How dare

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Speaker 2: you do this?

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Speaker 1: You know, these women are lying, they're just going after

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Speaker 1: his money. Did you tune that out or just say

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Speaker 1: so laser focused that you didn't even know what was

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Speaker 1: going on?

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Speaker 3: No, Man, I tried to tune it out. My husband said, please, Chris,

427
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Speaker 3: don't look at social media, and if you do, please

428
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Speaker 3: don't look at the comments. You know, even if you

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Speaker 3: read a news story, please don't read the comments. Just

430
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Speaker 3: just do not read anything. And he also asked me

431
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Speaker 3: to stay away from my email because during the second trial,

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Speaker 3: as you mentioned earlier, I was in a private firm,

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Speaker 3: so my email was public, so anyone could email me.

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Speaker 3: And man, the depth, you know, the depth of disgusting

435
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Speaker 3: things that were said to me were extremely hurtful, you know.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's difficult to stay late is our focus

437
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 3: when your whole being, you know, is being attacked, your credibility,

438
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Speaker 3: your intellect, your integrity. But you know, I'm Mac. I'm

439
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 3: a fireball, you know. At the end of the closing argument,

440
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 3: one of the guys went up to my husband, who

441
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 3: was in the AusAID is that your wife? He was like, yes,

442
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 3: and he was like, I feel so bad for you

443
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 3: when you guys fight, you know, so like someone to

444
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 3: come at me. Mac I'm coming straight back with them.

445
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 3: And you know what I ended up doing for some

446
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 3: of the people when I saw the comments. When they

447
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 3: would contact me and I was able to contact them back,

448
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 3: I would engage in a conversation, well, why would you

449
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 3: say that I was racist? Are you aware that? Are

450
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 3: you aware that? And I would share with them some

451
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 3: of the things that they weren't at the trial. They

452
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 3: didn't see, they didn't hear of. I actually spoke to

453
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 3: one individual on the phone and said, why on earth

454
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 3: would you say that to me? I was like, would

455
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 3: you appreciate if someone said that to your mother, someone

456
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 3: that you loved, you cared for. And he ultimately apologized

457
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,400
Speaker 3: to me. I am a fire ball. If you want

458
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 3: to say something to me, be strong enough to support it.

459
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: I told y'all, I told you, so, let's talk about

460
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 1: one of those things. And honey, I wish I had

461
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 1: been in that courtroom when this happened.

462
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:09,479
Speaker 3: Y'all.

463
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 1: She is given the closing argument. She did something she

464
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: had never done before. She wrote that thing out word

465
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 1: for word because she didn't want to mess up. She

466
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 1: didn't want to misspeak. She wanted it to be, as

467
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 1: she says, mechanical. Now y'all know her mind, right. She

468
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 1: is a scientist at heart, so she wanted it very

469
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 1: just clinical.

470
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 2: Here it is, and what happened.

471
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 3: I heard him laugh. You can ask my kids, and

472
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 3: my kids kind of know this now. They're like, we

473
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,400
Speaker 3: don't mess with mommy when she is in her mood.

474
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 3: I was in my mode. I heard him laugh, and

475
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 3: to me, you know, there is absolutely nothing funny about

476
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 3: people getting on the stand and crying and talking about

477
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 3: how they were sexually violated, being fed or voluntarily or

478
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 3: involuntarily ingesting, and intoxicate. There's absolutely nothing funny about sexual violence.

479
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 3: There's absolutely nothing funny about stripping a person of their autonomy.

480
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 3: There was absolutely nothing funny or anything to joke or

481
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 3: laugh about. And in that particular time, when I heard

482
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 3: like some type of a snicker come, I said to myself,

483
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 3: there's no way that he laughed. I am literally talking about.

484
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 3: I was going through in that person of the closing argument,

485
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 3: the facts of the violence that these women had experienced.

486
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 3: Because remember it was Andrea Constant who was a complaining witness,

487
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 3: but we had also called other priorac witnesses, so I

488
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 3: was showing that there was no absence, there was no accident.

489
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 3: There was no way that this man could have missed

490
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 3: took her inability to move as consent. Why, well, because

491
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 3: he had done it so many times before.

492
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 2: That was a clear pattern.

493
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 3: Yeah. And so when I heard the laugh, I said, Nah,

494
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 3: there's no way anyone will find this funny, right, because

495
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 3: he's either an innocent man facing very serious charges and penalties,

496
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 3: or he thinks it's funny to sexually violate someone, to

497
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 3: strip them of their autonomy, right, I mean, those are

498
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 3: the only two scenarios. And so I heard it. I

499
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 3: ignored it. I said, no, stick to your script, Christ,

500
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 3: don't get angry, don't see bread, because then you won't

501
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 3: be mechanical. So I continued talk to the jury in

502
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 3: a very mechanical way, Mac. But then I heard him

503
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 3: laugh again, and I lost it. I absolutely lost it,

504
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 3: I said, I turned around. I just there's absolutely nothing

505
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 3: funny about sexual violence. There's nothing funny about lack of consent.

506
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 3: There's nothing funny about stripping a person of their autonomy.

507
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 3: I just lost it. How is any of that funny?

508
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 3: And then I mean, at that point, Kristin the beast

509
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 3: came out.

510
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 2: Mac.

511
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 3: What can I say? I don't know how else to

512
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 3: categorize it. And I was so glad that Kristin the

513
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 3: Beast came out because the Beast is compassionate, Chris, and

514
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 3: the Beast is loving. I know every single case, Mac,

515
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 3: I work my butt off for all of my survivors.

516
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 3: Why well, because I always tried my very hard is

517
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 3: to build a rapport and I love these individuals and

518
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 3: I know from speaking with them what justice looks like

519
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 3: for them, and I am not able to deliver that

520
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 3: type of justice if I don't work hard. I know

521
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 3: I can when I work hard, and I wanted to

522
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 3: make sure that I deliver justice. But then on the

523
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 3: other flip side, Mac, you know, these individuals who I

524
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 3: am representing are breaking their own barriers and speaking out,

525
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 3: and I don't want that to go for naught. They're

526
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 3: speaking out because they don't want that offender to offend again.

527
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 3: And so if I don't work hard, or if I

528
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 3: don't put in the work, put in that groundwork and

529
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 3: build that foundation, I'm not going to be able to

530
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 3: deliver that justice either. So in this case, just like

531
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 3: in every single case I had in the past, that

532
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 3: every single case I had litigated in the future, I

533
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 3: knew I knew the foundation I knew, I knew my case.

534
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 3: I did not need notes. I did not need that

535
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 3: closing argument that I typed and typed and typed and

536
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 3: typed and typed. I knew it in my brain and

537
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 3: I knew it in my heart, and I was thankful

538
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 3: that the jury heard it.

539
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: To me, this is so important because everybody just heard it.

540
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: Everybody just heard.

541
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: How you just advocate wide open and lead with your heart.

542
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: And every single crime victim deserves that type of prosecutor.

543
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 3: And you do the same. You do the same as

544
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 3: a detective because you guys put together all of the evidence.

545
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 1: Well, there's no doubt you prepare, prepare, prepare. You knew

546
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: that case better than his attorney. I guarantee it. Well,

547
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: I want to end this way. I believe in having

548
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: a balance to your life, work, your home, everything. I

549
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:12,479
Speaker 1: saw such a wonderful balance in your life. And I

550
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: just want to take a second, if you don't mind

551
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: and brag on Nicholas.

552
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 2: Now, let me say something before I do.

553
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: My grandmama used to tell the five of us girls,

554
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: if you get a good man, don't brag on him,

555
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: because somebody's going to try to take him.

556
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 2: So if you don't want me to brag on him,

557
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 2: I won't.

558
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 3: You go read to had I love my baby.

559
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: Well, this is the first thing I noticed. When we

560
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: went to the welcoming party. Everybody kind of got dropped

561
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: off and showed up. And immediately they're taking these photographs.

562
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: Y'all were so adorable taking these pictures. He wasn't put

563
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: out by it. He didn't go, honey, come on, I

564
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: want to go on in and get something to eat.

565
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: He was so cute about it. But then later you

566
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: gave your speech, and y'all, she looked flawless. She had

567
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: a sharp suit on and she had these heels on.

568
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: I don't know what kind of shoes, because I'm not

569
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 1: a fashion person, but they were beautiful. But they were high.

570
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: And here's what I noticed. She gets down off the stage,

571
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,719
Speaker 1: and the first thing is he came to the session,

572
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: and he didn't come to the session and play on

573
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: his phone.

574
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 2: He came to the session and he watched her and

575
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 2: it was so sweet.

576
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: And afterwards she walks off and as you can imagine,

577
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: there's all these people coming up to her. Fans, they

578
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: want her autograph, they want to talk. Some other people

579
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 1: had some questions as she's walking, without missing a beat,

580
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: he hands her these flat shoes.

581
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 2: She changes, she.

582
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: Changes her shoes, he picks up the high heel shoes,

583
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: and they just keep right on going. And I thought,

584
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: you know what, that is a partnership right there. Baby,

585
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 1: She doesn't have to ask, honey, can you please go

586
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: get my flat shoes?

587
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 2: What shoes? What are you talking about? What is a

588
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 2: flat shoe? You know? And then you know, we went

589
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 2: to dinner.

590
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 1: He was just as kind and just well mannered, you know,

591
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: just spoke to everybody. He did not mind at all

592
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: that you kind of had the spotlight, which is wonderful

593
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,800
Speaker 1: to see. And then the final thing that I noticed

594
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:29,359
Speaker 1: again during the whining crime, everybody's coming to you. You're

595
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: the famous Cosby, you know, prosecutor. He sat there, a

596
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: phenomenal attorney in his own right, a man with I'm

597
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 1: sure a fabulous ego that doesn't mind attention. But he

598
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,399
Speaker 1: sat there proud of you. And then at the end,

599
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 1: you know, he asked me to sit at the table

600
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: and helped with Melissa's case. And again you had already

601
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,879
Speaker 1: signed on to be that expert on the case he had,

602
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: and again for the two of you to give all.

603
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: That kind of care and concern was just extraordinary. But

604
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: he's good looking too, so that ain't that ain't bad.

605
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: But I'm just telling you I love to wait the

606
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 1: way y'all were, and I just think that was an

607
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: extraordinary example, not just for your children but for everybody.

608
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: If you can do what we do for a living,

609
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 1: which is see some of the worst people can do

610
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 1: to each other, for you to have somebody that shows, hey,

611
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,479
Speaker 1: this is the best you can be for each other.

612
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 1: I'm not just gonna love her in private. And I

613
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 1: just thought that was great. So I just wanted to

614
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,439
Speaker 1: mention that because that balance. Y'all, if you don't have it,

615
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 1: you better go get it.

616
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 3: That's true.

617
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: You can't have Nicholas, though. Don't come at her.

618
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 3: Because don't forget I have a fireball.

619
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 1: She is a fireball, and she is from New Jersey.

620
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: She knows, she knows people.

621
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 3: That's right.

622
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: If you think she will fight for other people, you

623
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 1: know what she'll do for her man. So y'all save yourself.

624
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: But listen, I cannot tell you enough how much I

625
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: appreciate all the information.

626
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 2: I can't brag on you enough.

627
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 1: Your fight, your advocacy, and your heart, and I just

628
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: appreciate it so much, and thank you for being a

629
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 1: part of my Zone seven.

630
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 3: Thank you for inviting me. It's just an honor and

631
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 3: a privilege. Thank you so much, Mac, I really appreciate it.

632
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 1: I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I

633
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: always do with a quote. Today in science class, I

634
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:46,280
Speaker 1: learned every cell and our entire body is replaced.

635
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:46,760
Speaker 2: Every seven years.

636
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 1: How lovely is it to know that one day I

637
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: will have a body.

638
00:36:53,520 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 2: That you have never touched. L M juvenile victim Errold McCollum,

639
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:17,240
Speaker 2: and this is young seven mm