1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 2: Her family had no closure on this. You think it's 4 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 2: somebody that she knew. I do. Maybe she had no 5 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 2: fear and the person, for some reason, wanted to cover 6 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 2: that up. 7 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 8 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold war wicked On Exactly Right. I've 10 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 11 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 12 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 13 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we 14 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 15 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: never been published. Wicked Words is about the choices that writers. 16 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 2: Make, good and bad. 17 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: It's a deep dive into the stories behind the stories. 18 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: Vicky Irwin as an author in Saint Louis and she 19 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: loves a good historical true crime story. 20 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 2: There has been a ton of crime in Missouri. It 21 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 2: seems like a very innocent state to me. For some reason, 22 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 2: I would say, no, it is not one of the 23 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 2: reasons that people talk about there's so much crime in 24 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 2: Missouri is that it's all related to the bitterness of 25 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 2: the Civil War, and it has carried over. And I 26 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 2: have to admit some of the cases that I have 27 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 2: read that are as recent as the late twentieth century 28 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 2: have overtones of that in it. During and before the 29 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 2: Civil War, there was certainly the pro Union pro Confederacy divide, 30 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 2: and it was brother against brother many times, and that 31 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 2: has continued to divide and color things that have happened 32 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 2: even today. The racial issues perhaps even that we have 33 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 2: today could be traced back to that time. This is 34 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 2: a mystery. So who Mortimer? Her name was Margaret Mortimer. 35 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 2: She was forty two years old. She was married. They 36 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 2: had no children. She was a very prominent woman socially 37 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 2: and civically in the small central Missouri town of Mexico. 38 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 2: Mexico is about one hundred miles west of Saint Louis 39 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 2: and close to Columbia, Missouri, which is the home of 40 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 2: the University of Missouri Missus. Mortimer was renowned as a 41 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 2: musician and singer. She performed in New York, She'd performed 42 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 2: in Saint Louis. In fact, she had performed in Saint 43 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 2: Louis just two weeks before her murder. She was certainly 44 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,399 Speaker 2: known for her musical abilities. Her husband was fifty two, 45 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 2: she was forty two. She had not grown up in Mexico. 46 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 2: Her father and mother had moved there for business reasons, 47 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 2: and she had joined them with her husband. 48 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 1: Now, let's talk about the time period. What year are 49 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: we talking about, and where sort of are we in 50 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: the world, and where is this area. 51 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 2: That's an interesting thing because one of the things I 52 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 2: think about this particular situation is that it reflects so 53 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 2: many mores of the time period. It was nineteen thirty 54 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 2: seven during the depression in this small town, which there 55 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 2: were you know, of course, hardships, but all in all, 56 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 2: Mexico did not have a terrible time during the depression 57 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 2: because there was a fire brick factory, two fire brick 58 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 2: factories there that were very successful and continued to hold 59 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 2: out employment to people. What's a fire brick factory? Okay, 60 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 2: a fire brink for me, Okay, that's all right, And 61 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 2: I you know, having grown up there, a fire brick 62 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 2: factory is kind of second nature to me. They make 63 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 2: a special kind of brick that they used at the time. 64 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: In the steel industry. They were also used for the 65 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 2: launch of rockets, like the launch pads for rockets. So 66 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 2: Mexico was always very proud of that that that was 67 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 2: part of all the lunar and all of the space 68 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 2: exploration because their bricks would be there on the launching 69 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 2: pad for that. It takes a special kind of clay 70 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 2: to make a firebrick, and that particular area of the 71 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 2: state of Missouri was known for that kind of play. 72 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 2: It was kind of like oil. I like to liken 73 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 2: it to that if they found a depositive clay that 74 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 2: could be used in firebrick on your property, it meant 75 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 2: money for your family. 76 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: So if you weren't a family involved with the fire 77 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: brick manufacturing industry, what are you doing in Mexico, Missouri. 78 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 2: You're working in a factory. Sometimes you would be out 79 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 2: excavating the clay to bring in to make the firebricks 80 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 2: out of wow, So this is truly This town is 81 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 2: built around this hit. Yes, and when the steel industry died, 82 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 2: the firebrick industry died, and the town has suffered greatly 83 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 2: because of that. 84 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: But in nineteen thirty seven, it's still rolling along. 85 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 2: Everybody has a job people do have jobs, not everybody, 86 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 2: because that's one of the issues in this case. Not 87 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 2: everybody has a job. But there is a big federal 88 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 2: works project going on to brick the streets. The streets 89 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 2: had been still unpaved, and they had gotten a federal 90 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 2: work project to brick the streets. So there was work 91 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 2: and things were not as bad there as they could 92 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 2: have been. So what does mister Mortimer do. Mister Mortimer 93 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 2: went to law school, and he had practiced law with 94 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 2: a very prominent firm in New York City. Some of 95 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 2: the other people in his firm went on to great 96 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 2: political careers. He was very active in the Democratic Party there, 97 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 2: and he was a personal friend of ALFREDY Smith, who 98 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 2: was Governor of New York. His wife came to Mexico 99 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 2: for an extended visit with her mother and father when 100 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 2: her father moved his company, which was a company that 101 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 2: made banking forms. When he moved the company to Mexico 102 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 2: because of labor problems he'd had in other places. Came 103 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 2: for an extended visit and she really liked it, and 104 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 2: she convinced her husband finally to come join her in 105 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 2: Mexico and work with her father, and they actually lived 106 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 2: with her mother and father. So he is an attorney. 107 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 2: He's an attorney and a prominent attorney, and yet they 108 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 2: decided to live with her parents. They did, they did. 109 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 2: Why is that it was a very large home on 110 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 2: a street of other large homes and oftentimes families were 111 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 2: living together, multi generational families were living together. Her father 112 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 2: was very ill, you know, and I'm not sure if 113 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 2: that had anything to do with it. She was a caretaker. 114 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 2: Possibly well, they had hired help that did that. Wow, 115 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:43,799 Speaker 2: because they were a very prominent family. 116 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: This is absolutely an upper class, very particularly for Mexico. 117 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 2: For Mexico, Yes, absolutely, yes. What is the crime like 118 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 2: during this time period? Do you have any ideas? You know, 119 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 2: there was minor crime like vandalism, but nothing violent. 120 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: So set up the day where everything changes for the 121 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: Mortimer family. 122 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 2: It was the day before Thanksgiving nineteen thirty seven. Missus 123 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 2: Mortimer had gone to have her hair done. They did 124 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 2: not own a car. Mister Mortimer felt it was less 125 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 2: expensive to take a taxi everywhere than it was to 126 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 2: own a car, so he did not own a car. 127 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 2: It was only six blocks from where they lived to 128 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 2: the center of downtown. She'd gotten her hair fixed. She 129 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 2: had gone to a drug store and she bought some soap, 130 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 2: And this is in the afternoon. I'm assuming this is 131 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:40,239 Speaker 2: the late afternoon, four o'clock, five o'clock, between four thirty 132 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 2: and six. She went to the jewelry store. She bought 133 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 2: some flowers, and she bought six silver teaspoons. She went 134 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 2: to a place called Scott's Store, and she shopped there. 135 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 2: She bought a handkerchief. She stopped at a newsstand and 136 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 2: she bought some magazines, and then she proceeded to walk home. 137 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 2: Behind her a young lady who was sixteen years old, 138 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 2: whose name was either Ama or Emily. I saw it 139 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 2: various ways in the different stories I read, which. 140 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: Is, as we know, in the older the paper, the 141 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: more unreliable it is. 142 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, so many differences in some of the stuff. 143 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 2: So her name was either Ama Jewel or Emily Jewel. 144 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 2: She was walking behind Missus Mortimer up the street, and 145 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 2: then she passed her. She was walking faster than she 146 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 2: was Alma, which was the name they used in the 147 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 2: local paper. So I'm kind of relying on that simply 148 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 2: because I feel like they would know better. Alma heard 149 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 2: a scream, Then she heard a muffled scream. Then she 150 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 2: heard three muffled thuds. It terrified her and she took 151 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 2: off running home. When she got home, she told her 152 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 2: mother about it, but they did not have a telephone, 153 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 2: so she did not report it to anyone. I'm guessing 154 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 2: looking back, she probably regrets the They interviewed her several times, 155 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 2: but never in her interview did she say anything to 156 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 2: that effect, so Alma doesn't report it. That's between five 157 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 2: point thirty and six that Alma passes her and she 158 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 2: hears these horrible noises. Mister Mortimer has already arrived at home. 159 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 2: He has walked from his office home, so he is 160 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 2: at home and they're preparing for dinner. And it's very uncommon, 161 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 2: but Missus Mortimer does not show up for dinner. At first, 162 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 2: they just think, oh, she got involved in a conversation, 163 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 2: she's visiting with somebody, you know, she stopped by someone's house, 164 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 2: something like that. They were a little concerned, but not 165 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 2: concerned enough to start calling around for her. Yet they 166 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 2: went ahead and sat down to dinner. They did have 167 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 2: out of town guests from San Diego, and quite interestingly, 168 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 2: their names were mister and missus James Irwin, which I 169 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 2: am missus James Irwin, And when I read that, it 170 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 2: was kind of like, oh my gosh, I have to 171 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 2: I know more about this case. You meant to do 172 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,319 Speaker 2: this story. Yeah. Anyways, they had guests because this is 173 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 2: the day before Thanksgiving. This is the day before Thanksgiving. 174 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: Of course there's Thanksgiving preparations going on everywhere about. Let's see, 175 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 2: she had been there, so I would say about seven 176 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 2: point thirty, some boys showed up at the Mortarmer house 177 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: and they said someone's been badly hurt. Can you come 178 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 2: and help to mister Mortimer, there was a college women's 179 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 2: college that had closed. Nobody was there, you know, as 180 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 2: far as college students were concerned. Right across the street. 181 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 2: He thought that probably some boys had been over in 182 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 2: the college and that one of them had gotten hurt, 183 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 2: since it was young men. So he comes and he's 184 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 2: standing on the sidewalk with some neighbors who said there's 185 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 2: a man hurt in the backyard of the house next 186 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 2: door to them, which is the Holtman house. It was 187 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 2: being renovated. Nobody lived there, but the Holtmans had come 188 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 2: by to check on some work for these lates. The 189 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 2: houses aren't, you know, close to. I mean again, it's 190 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 2: a very nice neighborhood. So the lawns are large so there, 191 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 2: and there's a driveway in between the two houses at least, 192 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 2: you know, plus the yards. The Mortimer house has been 193 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 2: torn down since this all happened, and so I've never 194 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 2: seen the Mortimer house. I moved there later than that, 195 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 2: you know, it was never there when I was there. 196 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 2: But the houses are still a nice distance apart. So 197 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 2: they wait on the sidewalk for the police officers to 198 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 2: come before they go check on what happened. When the 199 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 2: Holtmans came to check, it was mister and Missus Holtman 200 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 2: and their son. They had flashlights and they heard moaning, 201 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 2: and like I said, mister Holtman looked out and he 202 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 2: saw this body laying in the driveway behind his house 203 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 2: and sent the boys to get mister Mortimer. He went 204 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 2: next door to another home on the other side to 205 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 2: call the police. And so the police were on their way. 206 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 1: And so at what point does mister Mortimer walk to 207 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: the back When the police arrive, they all go back 208 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: to check on the condition and on who this person is. 209 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 2: Why don't they go sooner if they hear moanings I know, 210 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,079 Speaker 2: I have never understood that either. But they did not go, 211 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 2: none of them, the Holtmans did not go. They just 212 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 2: decided to wait for the police to come. And mister 213 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,199 Speaker 2: Holtan's the one who saw the body, heard some moaning 214 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 2: and he thought it was a man, oh boy, okay, yeah. 215 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 2: And so when they get back there, of course, mister 216 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,079 Speaker 2: Mortimer says, that's my wife, and he sinks to his knees. 217 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 2: He tries to wipe the blood off her face. Her 218 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 2: face is blood covered. He straightens her clothing because her 219 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,199 Speaker 2: clothing has been disarranged. She's wearing a dress. Her underwear 220 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 2: is tossed to the side, her dress is pulled up. 221 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 2: He tries to cover her and for modesty, for modesty, 222 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 2: probably partly, you know, clean the blood off her face 223 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 2: and see what he can do until the ambulance get there, 224 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 2: because at that point, of course, they've also called an ambulance. 225 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 2: And she's still alive. She's still alive. And he said 226 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 2: when he started talking to her and said we're here, 227 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 2: we'll help you, she was flailing her arms around like 228 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 2: she was trying to push someone away. At that time 229 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 2: in Mexico, Missouri, and even when I was a young 230 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 2: child there. The ambulance was not a medical ambulance. It 231 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 2: was the hearse from the funeral home that would pick 232 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 2: people up and take them to the hospital. It was 233 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,839 Speaker 2: a hearse that was equipped with some kinds of Again, 234 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,719 Speaker 2: this was nineteen thirty seven, so it wasn't like they 235 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 2: had advanced medical equipment. I mean, you know, they would 236 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 2: have some medical equipment, and the people that manned the 237 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 2: ambulance were somewhat trained in medical procedures. That's the kind 238 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 2: of service that it was. So they rushed her to 239 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 2: the hospital. There was a doctor Coyle that was at 240 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 2: the hospital when she arrived. They of course tried to 241 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 2: save her, but due to the head injuries, the fractured skull, 242 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 2: excessive blood loss, excessive blood loss, lots of blood. There 243 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 2: was blood on the sidewalk, there was blood in the 244 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 2: driveway from where she was dragged, and of course there 245 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 2: was a pool of blood where she was laying. 246 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 1: After she dies, there's an examination and what are some 247 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: of the things we find out about what she went 248 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: through in cause of death. 249 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 2: She was struck three times. She also had been struck 250 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 2: about the face. Now, doctor Coyle insisted repeatedly that the 251 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 2: perpetrator did not assault her sexually, so he tried, but 252 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 2: he was scared off. And I'll talk about that again 253 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 2: in a minute about what they think happened there. Her 254 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 2: belongings were scattered along the yard. But again this was 255 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 2: a small town. People showed up as soon as they 256 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 2: saw lights and things like that. They trampled the yard 257 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 2: so they could find no footprints. Contaminated crime scene, absolutely, 258 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, completely made it so that there 259 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 2: was no way. They brought dogs to try to track 260 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 2: the person that did this, and the dogs couldn't pick 261 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 2: up any sense because there were so many sents there. 262 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 2: It's still like that in a small town. I mean, 263 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 2: sometimes we see all kinds of things here in Saint 264 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 2: Louis where I am now, and we never know what happened. 265 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 2: That's the way it is. People gather as soon as 266 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 2: they see something like that happen. 267 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: Now, if I'm a cop, you know, I'm looking at 268 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: the inner circle first and then expanding out. 269 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 2: So is mister Mortimer on the radar, not the way 270 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 2: I read the case. I've also requested all the documents. 271 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 2: The Mexico police documents burned in a fire, so there's 272 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 2: nothing available there. And I've requested the State Highway Patrol 273 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 2: documents and I'm on my third request now, so I 274 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 2: would love to see them, but so far I haven't 275 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 2: been able to get anything out of them, and they're 276 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 2: supposedly available, but I just haven't been able to get 277 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 2: them yet. I cannot see that they did suspect him. 278 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 2: This is the thing that I say that it's kind 279 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 2: of telling about the way things were in nineteen thirty 280 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 2: seven in a small town in Missouri, when mister Mortimer 281 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 2: was walking home from work, he encountered a very tall 282 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 2: and they've kind of translated very tall to mean around 283 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 2: six foot two, black man wearing a cap, a dark cap, 284 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 2: and a brown checked coat that came down to his knees. 285 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 2: He looked mister Mortimer in the eye very boldly, and 286 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 2: mister Mortimer took notice of him, and that's who they 287 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 2: focused upon as far as who committed this act, because I. 288 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: Think it goes without saying that a black man in Mexico, 289 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: Missouri would have been not something usual in nineteen thirty seven. 290 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 2: He just notices him because he looks directly at him 291 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 2: and walks right by him on the street and doesn't 292 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,119 Speaker 2: cross to the other side or step off the sidewalk 293 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 2: for him. 294 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: So if we look backwards at this crime, and then 295 00:16:58,280 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: we'll talk about the investigation. 296 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 2: If you look back backwards, so you have. 297 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: Missus Mortimer and Alma on the same street, and Alma 298 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 1: passes her and walks forward. And then here's something. There's 299 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: no man passing Alma towards Missus Mortimer. So somebody is 300 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: to the side, hidden right. 301 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 2: And behind a tree. They suspect. 302 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: We'll go now to the doctor and what is happening. 303 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 1: Was she assaulted? What happened? 304 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 2: You know, as far as the reports go, she was 305 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 2: not assaulted. She was assaulted physically and violently with what 306 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 2: they later discover as a piece of firewood. Hit on 307 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 2: the head three times. One of the gashes is like 308 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 2: four and a half inches. They're very graphic in these 309 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 2: old newspaper stories, which it's so interesting in a small town. 310 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 2: I wouldn't think they would be that graphic, I know, 311 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 2: and particularly since you know that the family. This is 312 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 2: the paper that the family reads too. So she had 313 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 2: been hit across the face as well. Like I said, 314 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 2: she had an abrasion above her eye, and her eye 315 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 2: was swollen and blackened. Her clothes were torn. The way 316 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 2: they suspect he got kind of scared away from what 317 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 2: he was doing, was that the guest in the home 318 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 2: had his car parked in front of the house. Mister 319 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 2: Irwin went out to move his car between a quarter 320 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 2: of six and six, and that's about the time they're 321 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 2: suspecting that this all happened, you know, judging from Amah's 322 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 2: time measurements, and when she heard the cries. Mister Irwin 323 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 2: goes out to move his car. He drives it down 324 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 2: the street. He turns up the side street and he 325 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 2: goes down the alley to get in the garage. 326 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 3: Well. 327 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,400 Speaker 2: First, he leaves the car pointing north toward the Holdman 328 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 2: house with the headlights on, with the car running, with 329 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 2: the car running, as he gets out to open the 330 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 2: gate to get into the yard to go into the garage. 331 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 2: He pulls into the yard still with the lights pointing 332 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 2: north towards this house. He can't get the door open, 333 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 2: the garage door open. He has to go in the 334 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 2: house ask the maid to come out and open the 335 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 2: garage door for him. She comes out, she opens the 336 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 2: garage door. He finally gets in and the light is gone. 337 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 2: They figure that it was this light that scared the 338 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 2: perpetrator away. 339 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 1: So it was an attempt of rape, right, But it 340 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: doesn't appear like he had time exactly. 341 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 2: Did he drop the firewood the piece of firewood? 342 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: Yes he did, And is this a weapon that he 343 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 1: found on the scene or was it something that he 344 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 1: might have brought with him. 345 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 2: They finally traced the piece of firewood, which still had 346 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 2: the bark on the outside. It was a white oak 347 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 2: piece of firewood with the bark still attached, and they 348 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 2: traced it to a woodpile about six blocks away. So 349 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,159 Speaker 2: he had picked it up somewhere along the way and 350 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,360 Speaker 2: carried it with him. There's no mention of the man 351 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 2: that mister Ortemer saw in the street carrying a piece 352 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 2: of firewood. I mean he had on this long coat. 353 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 2: I guess it could have been under that, but there's 354 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 2: no mention of that. So there is this firewood pile 355 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 2: that's farther away where he got it. It was not 356 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 2: from the Holtman home or the Mortimer wrote his home. 357 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: Well, you would think that he knew where he wanted 358 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,360 Speaker 1: to go, right, because she was how far away from 359 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 1: her house, how many blocks? 360 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 2: She was not even blocks away from her house. She 361 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 2: was houses away from her house. 362 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: So to you, does it make sense that he finds 363 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 1: this firewood, he puts it where he thinks he wants 364 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: to drag her, because you can't really hold firewood and 365 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 1: muffle someone. And yeah, I know he brings or he 366 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: knows where he's going, so. 367 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 2: He could know that the house was vacant. I mean, 368 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,360 Speaker 2: that's one thing that was a vacant house. Is it obvious? 369 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 2: What do you think it was obvious that it was, Well, 370 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 2: there's construction going on in the house, so I would 371 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,919 Speaker 2: say that it probably is. And I also think in 372 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 2: a small town, if it's someone from that small town, 373 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 2: they kind of know what all is going on. Earlier 374 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 2: in the year, a woman had been hit with a 375 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 2: brick in the same block in the back of the head. 376 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 1: The irony there considering I know, we're laughing, but of 377 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: course main works. I also in my head thought it 378 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,880 Speaker 1: was ironic that it took however long to have bricks 379 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: as pavers in the streets. 380 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 2: In the streets, I know it is. It's crazy. There 381 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 2: were two women, a teacher and another woman that had 382 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 2: been approached from the back and hitting the head. But 383 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 2: that's all that happened to them. Both of them had screamed, 384 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 2: and the attacker had vanished at that point. This was 385 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 2: in November in April was one of them, and the 386 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 2: other one had been in the year before, in the 387 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 2: fall before, so it had been almost a year before. 388 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 2: I wonder why he didn't snatch Alma, who came first. Well, 389 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 2: that's that's one of the things that they write about. 390 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 2: If Amma had come behind missus Mortimer, she probably would 391 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 2: have been the one that was snatched. He didn't snatch 392 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 2: Amma because Missus Mortimer was on her way, and if 393 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 2: he snatched her and miss Mortimer heard the scream, she 394 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 2: might also be able to see something. And there weren't 395 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 2: other people on the street. That was dinner time. Wow. 396 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 2: And again that's the time when there weren't tons of cars, 397 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 2: so it wasn't like people you know, would have their 398 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 2: cars out they would be eating. The streets were still dirt, 399 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 2: so I mean, you know, like I said, there just 400 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 2: weren't a lot of cars that would be driving around 401 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 2: at that time. 402 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 1: The doctor has said she was beaten with this stick, 403 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 1: so blunt force traumas her cause of death. Attempted sexual assault, 404 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: that he was interrupted nineteen thirty seven. Forensics were I mean, 405 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: we're not talking about nail scrapings and DNA. 406 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 2: And they somehow figured out the various path of her blood, 407 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 2: you know, that it was her blood in all these 408 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 2: different places. And they saw the drag marks of course 409 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 2: where he dragged her. Oh, and she had a fractured ankle, 410 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,679 Speaker 2: and they thought that was from him grasping onto her 411 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 2: ankle and dragging her along. Horrifying. Oh, I mean, you know, 412 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 2: I think she must have been unc on just a 413 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 2: large part of the time. Oh yeah, she must have. 414 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 1: I bet he hit her really quickly because in order 415 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: to drag her by the ankle, she weren't unconscious. 416 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 2: She would be fighting and screaming. 417 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: So he probably gave her a real big hit to 418 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 1: the head and then dragged her and then continued. Right, Okay, 419 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 1: So now the cops have a problem, all two of them. 420 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 2: Yes, the two that show up in Mexico. 421 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: Missouri have a problem because this is nothing like this 422 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: has ever happened before. 423 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,239 Speaker 2: Nothing that wasn't wear related has happened before. Right, So 424 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,360 Speaker 2: they call in the state Highway Patrol and their evidence 425 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 2: collection unit to work on things. Sometimes he's called the 426 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 2: Chief his name is Castile, sometimes he's called Superintendent Castile 427 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 2: comes and actually sets up a headquarters to work on 428 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 2: the investigation. From the town. They bring in some police 429 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 2: officers from some neighboring towns as well. And it didn't 430 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 2: say if they had a particular expertise or what, but 431 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 2: there were some other police officers from some other towns, 432 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 2: and I would assume it would be something like they 433 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 2: do here in Saint Louis now called the Major K Squad, 434 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 2: where they gather together, you know, particular group of police 435 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 2: officers to investigate, you know, heinus crime, and so Superintendent 436 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 2: castials here he's kind of heading the investigation at that time, 437 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 2: and he is the spokesperson from then on. The police 438 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 2: chief's name was Robert Baker, and he is kind of 439 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 2: second cheering at this point. The other thing they do, 440 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 2: and again I think this is because they believe an 441 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 2: African American is involved. They bring in a man who 442 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 2: is interesting in and of himself and is worth having 443 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 2: a whole podcast about this man. His name is Ira Cooper. 444 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 2: He's a lieutenant in the Saint Louis Police Department, the 445 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 2: first full time black detective that they hire before Lieutenant Cooper. 446 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 2: They would just hire African Americans when they needed someone 447 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 2: to help them investigate a crime. His parents had taught 448 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 2: in Audreying County. He was born in Audrene County, which 449 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 2: is the county where Mexico is, so he was familiar 450 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 2: with the land and with some of the people that 451 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,360 Speaker 2: lived there, and they had brought Lieutenant Cooper in before now, 452 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 2: Lieutenant Cooper was an optometrist. He had gone to school 453 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,959 Speaker 2: and he'd been trained as an optometrist, but he couldn't 454 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 2: make any money doing that because no one would come 455 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 2: to an African American doctor at that point. He became 456 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 2: a newspaper reporter for a while, an investigative journalist, and 457 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 2: the police got to know him from that. He had 458 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,360 Speaker 2: some big cases in Saint Louis that he was involved in. 459 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,679 Speaker 2: There was a kidnapping amongst the Bush family. It was 460 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 2: actually an Orthwine is one of the branches of the 461 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 2: Bush family, which is the big beer family here in 462 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 2: Saint Louis. He worked on the kidnapping in that family 463 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 2: and he was given metals time after time after time. 464 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 2: Lieutenant Cooper came in and carried on kind of a 465 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 2: parallel investigation at the request of Superintendent Castile and Chief Baker, 466 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 2: so he was there at the same time. They investigated 467 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 2: all of the men who had been released from prison 468 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 2: in any time recently, especially anyone that had been convicted 469 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 2: of an offensive a sexual nature. Now they're thinking this 470 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,439 Speaker 2: is probably a local guy, right, No, they are not, 471 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 2: and they're concentrating on this idea that it's this large 472 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 2: African American that did this to her. Iron Cooper had 473 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 2: an odd little quirk where he did not keep notes 474 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 2: everything in his head, so that's important. They show mister 475 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 2: Mortimer a picture of a man that they've arrested in 476 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 2: a nearby town. The town's name was Carrollton, and he says, 477 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 2: he kind of looks like this man. So they bring 478 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 2: this man over. It's not him, you know, as soon 479 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 2: as he sees him, it's not him. There's a place 480 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 2: along the train tracks again, this is the Depression, a 481 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 2: place along the train tracks where hoboes what they called 482 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 2: at the time, hoboes, that's what it was called in 483 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 2: the reports. Where they went there and investigated there to 484 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 2: see if they could find anything out there, and everybody 485 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 2: there checked out. Now two days it's two days later, 486 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 2: they have nothing and all of the reports that I read. 487 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 2: In only one of the reports did they say they 488 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 2: were looking beyond this African American man. There was a 489 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 2: family that lived in this little brick house over on 490 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 2: the Harden College campus that used to be the janitor's quarters. 491 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 2: The family had been brought to Mexico, an African American 492 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 2: family named Bays, from a farming community, so that the 493 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 2: wife could work for one of the really prominent Mexico citizens. 494 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,360 Speaker 2: Missus Bays worked there. She wanted to move to Mexico 495 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 2: because they had two children, one was in elementary school 496 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,919 Speaker 2: and one was in high school. She wanted them to 497 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 2: be able to have an education. The man had been 498 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 2: questioned once, just did you see anything? You know what 499 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 2: happened you? Did you hear anything? Was there anything odd 500 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 2: about this evening? They of course said no, there wasn't. Well, 501 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 2: the next day he went to talk to his wife's 502 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 2: boss and he goes, are they going to try to 503 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 2: pin this on me? He's not the guy who he 504 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 2: is not the guy? But you know, here's another African 505 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 2: American man in close proximity. And like I said, they've 506 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,959 Speaker 2: been kind of they've narrowed that focus. And that's one 507 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 2: of the things that bothers me about the whole case. 508 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 2: But again, I think it's just a shadow of the times. 509 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I think it's that's what it is. 510 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 2: So mister Bays goes to goes to his wife's boss 511 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 2: and says, they've questioned me. They came back and questioned 512 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 2: me again for the second time, and they searched our 513 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 2: house this time. And he goes, are they going to 514 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 2: try to pin this on me? Mister Knowle says, no, 515 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 2: I don't think they're going to do that, And he goes, 516 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 2: I know you're depressed about not having a job. Come 517 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 2: and meet with me tomorrow and I will take you 518 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 2: and we'll see what we can find. And he was 519 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 2: going to try to get him a job on the 520 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 2: street crew that I mentioned earlier, where they were bricking 521 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 2: over the streets. And he's supposed to meet mister Knowle 522 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,479 Speaker 2: and he's going to take him and introduce him and 523 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 2: you know, try to fix it up. Mister Bays does 524 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 2: not show up. When the young daughter, who's nine years old, 525 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,719 Speaker 2: gets home from school, she sees her dad leaned up 526 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 2: against the wall, sitting in a chair, but the chairs 527 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 2: tipped back, leaning against the wall and she calls out 528 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 2: to him and he doesn't answer. She runs to her 529 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 2: mother who's working, and says, Daddy won't talk to me. 530 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 2: Mister Bays committed suicide. There was a corner what they 531 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 2: call a corner's inquest into his death and to whether 532 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 2: he had a connection and was he killing himself out 533 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 2: of guilt, and it was plainly proven that did not happen. 534 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,239 Speaker 2: He was always in a certain place where he could be, 535 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 2: you know, they could prove where he was that whole evening. 536 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: He died by suicide even though he wasn't connected. And 537 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,719 Speaker 1: are the newspapers at that point printing that he's not connected? 538 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 2: They said, doesn't have a connection, and then after the 539 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 2: corner's inquest they did say no, no connection was found. 540 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 2: So at this point, this is a horrible murder that 541 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 2: within this is two days later that he kills himself 542 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 2: after she does, after she dies, so three days really 543 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 2: after the actual assault on her. 544 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: So we're thinking then that mister Bays was already depressed 545 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: from having. 546 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 2: And he's afraid that if he goes back to the 547 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 2: farm where he's wishing he could be again. That he 548 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 2: states to mister Knowle that if he goes back. People 549 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 2: will think he's running away to get away from the suspicion. 550 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: So he feels stuck. Okay, so now we've got one 551 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: suspect who's day. 552 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 2: He's dead, he's gone, and they still have not found 553 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 2: that man that mister Mortimer has been looking for. At 554 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 2: first it's reported that they had her purse. They finally 555 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 2: find her purse, so we're talking about evidence now evidence Now. 556 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 2: A paper boy is taking a shortcut near the home 557 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 2: where she was found and where the Rhoduses live, and 558 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 2: he finds the purse laying in the yard. There's a compact, 559 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 2: there's a comb, there's a coin purse with just some 560 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 2: loose coins. There's a second coin purse that's attached to 561 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 2: the purse. That's it well, and she had just bought 562 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 2: six silver teaspoons, they did, and those are missing. The 563 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 2: six silver teaspoons are missing. The two things that they 564 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 2: pin their hopes on are one that they will find 565 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 2: his blood stained clothing. And they're pretty sure it's a man, 566 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,479 Speaker 2: simply because of the strength that it had to have 567 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 2: taken to cause the injuries well, and to drag something 568 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 2: and to drag her. Yes, and it sounds like an 569 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 2: experienced man. If it's the same man, this is the 570 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 2: third one that they know of that's been reported to 571 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 2: the police. He dragged her in a way that both 572 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 2: her shoes fell off. 573 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: This will be a very short response, I'm sure from you. 574 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 1: But in the order of forensics available, what did they 575 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: have as evidence? 576 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 2: They were looking for fingerprints, If they had found blood 577 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 2: stained clothing, they you know, they were looking for that. 578 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 2: They could not get any fingerprints off of the firewood 579 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 2: because the bark was still attached. They were taking fingerprints 580 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 2: off with the magazine, but there were so many people 581 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 2: that had handled that magazine that they were having no 582 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 2: luck at all with that. But they never matched fingerprints 583 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:12,959 Speaker 2: to anything in that time period. 584 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: You're just really crossing your fingers and hoping that maybe 585 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: this is the husband of a woman who is going 586 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:20,719 Speaker 1: to come to police and say, my husband has been 587 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: saying this, or my husband came home bloody, or my 588 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: brother or my neighbor came. 589 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 2: Home soaked in blood. 590 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 1: What is the reaction at this point, several days later 591 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: of mister Mortimer and her parents, whom they live with. 592 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 2: Is there a public reaction from them? Well, mister Mortimer 593 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 2: gives an interview about a week later, just about their life. 594 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 2: I don't know if he's at that point thinking perhaps 595 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 2: people are looking at him askance, you know, like, h 596 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 2: we haven't found anybody we else is it going to be? Yeah? 597 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 2: And he gives an interview about their life together and 598 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 2: the things they love to do. They've never had a fight. Oh, 599 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 2: I mean they've been married twenty they're about to celebrate 600 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 2: their twenty year anniversary, you know, and so on and 601 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 2: so far. Is that not a red flag to you? Yes? 602 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 2: When I read, when I read the little paragraph that 603 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 2: said we've never had a fight, not even a lover spect, 604 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 2: I thought, yeah, Oh, I've been married a lot longer 605 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 2: than that. She's a very patient woman, Missus Mortimer. 606 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: Just to play devil's advocate for mister Mortimer, that would 607 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: be an explanation for why there was. 608 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 2: No sexual assault exactly. Might not be. 609 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: It might just be a setup on his part to 610 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: make it look like a sexual assault, right, don't know. 611 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: And that also might be another reason why Alma wasn't snatched. 612 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 1: Obviously that's not the right person, right, And he would 613 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: know probably where she's going, right. 614 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 2: He would because she worked at the drug store. Oh, 615 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 2: mister Mortimer is a personal friend of the governor. Governor 616 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 2: Stark at the time, the state started a reward fund 617 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 2: for three hundred dollars, and that was something they were 618 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 2: also relying upon to get information. It never yielded anything. 619 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 2: Women did not go out by themselves at night. They 620 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 2: did lock their door. They were ultra cautious about anybody, 621 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 2: particularly strangers. Again, you know, you always wanted to be 622 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 2: the stranger, not somebody that you know. And so yes, 623 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,359 Speaker 2: they were taking precautions at that point, and people were 624 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,399 Speaker 2: not even going out on the street much at night. 625 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: Did anything else happen that was even remotely similar to those. 626 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 2: No, no reports after that. Years down the road, they 627 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 2: suspected a man who was on death row in the 628 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 2: state of Washington that he had been a serial killer. 629 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 2: His name was Jake Bird, and perhaps he had spent 630 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,879 Speaker 2: a number of years in the Midwest, and he could 631 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 2: have been the one that committed this murder. But it 632 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 2: was eventually discovered that he was in prison at the 633 00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 2: time that this happened, so it couldn't have been him. 634 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 2: That's the only other lead that I read, and you 635 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 2: know I did all the way up to the present day. 636 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: Of course, So what ends up happening with mister Mortimer 637 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: and the family. 638 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 2: Do you know, I do know, And it's actually another 639 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 2: interesting story what happened to mister Mortimer. Okay, mister Mortimer 640 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 2: stayed in Mexico with the family. The parents were elderly, 641 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 2: and of course they eventually died. He did not remarry. 642 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 2: He had some illness along the way. His brother died 643 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty three August of nineteen fifty three, and 644 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 2: mister Mortimer got on a train to go to his 645 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,359 Speaker 2: brother's funeral in New York and nobody heard from him 646 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 2: ever again. And the interesting thing about that is there 647 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 2: was no report in the newspapers until October that he 648 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 2: was missing. And I cannot figure that part out. Why 649 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 2: there was, you know, why there was not more of 650 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,839 Speaker 2: a hue and cry that he was missing In New 651 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,840 Speaker 2: York City. He suffered a fatal heart attack on the street. 652 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 2: They took him to a hospital called Knickerbocker Hospital. He 653 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 2: died at Knickerbocker Hospital, and they buried him in Pottersfield. 654 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 2: Because I didn't know who he was, he had identification 655 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 2: on him. There were several editorials about how cruel this 656 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 2: whole thing was because he had the identification. You know, 657 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,280 Speaker 2: he had been in you know, he was in the hospital, 658 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 2: and yet they buried him. Somehow, his family, who still 659 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 2: lived in the New York area, in New Jersey, New 660 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 2: York area, finally found him and had him disinterred and 661 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 2: buried in the family plot in New Jersey. 662 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 1: So such a very tragic ending. Of course, if we 663 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:46,320 Speaker 1: go back to this case, this officially became a cold case. 664 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 2: Yes, very quickly. I mean within two weeks it had 665 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 2: really stopped being reported in the newspaper. The only thing 666 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,799 Speaker 2: that was still in the newspaper was every day there 667 00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 2: was a little box that showed how the reward fund 668 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,479 Speaker 2: was growing. So what do you think happened? Superintendent cast 669 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 2: Deal at one point said it could be a transient. 670 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 2: I don't quite believe it was a transient because it 671 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 2: had happened twice before. It was kind of like a 672 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 2: practice is what those two before they were hit with 673 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 2: a brick? Yeah, so somebody throwing a brick or something. No, 674 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,879 Speaker 2: like you know, like they would come up behind them 675 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 2: and just you know, hit them with the brick club. Yeah, 676 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 2: in those cases the women screamed and ran off. 677 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 1: It seems clear that he did practice runs whoever did this? Yes, 678 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: so this is a local most likely. 679 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,360 Speaker 2: I personally believe it is. Did he go someplace else 680 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,279 Speaker 2: and actually was successful at some point for doing this, 681 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 2: and let me talk about what happened. So I Recooper 682 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,399 Speaker 2: comes back to Mexico to continue the investigation because nothing 683 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 2: has happened, and this is over a period of time. 684 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,879 Speaker 2: I mean he would come back and reinvestigate it over 685 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 2: a period of time. But like I said, he did 686 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 2: not keep notes. So he says to the police, I 687 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 2: think I may have what's happened. He comes back to 688 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 2: Saint Louis and he drops its, and so nobody knows 689 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 2: what ever happened. You have to keep notes, duke, keep. 690 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: A journal from somebody who uses an archive constantly. 691 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 2: Please do keep. 692 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 1: Notes and write and type out letters. Don't handwrite them 693 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 1: because handwriting is unreliable. 694 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,799 Speaker 2: I can't imagine that this wasn't discussed over and over 695 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 2: and over again. 696 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,840 Speaker 1: So how come nobody else has come forward and said, hey, 697 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: I've heard. 698 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 2: Yes, nobody has nobody who Ira? Huh? Yeah he was, 699 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 2: And actually I have a friend. Her grandfather was the 700 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 2: editor and the owner of the newspaper. She talked to 701 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 2: IRA's son who now is also deceased, and he said 702 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 2: he didn't discuss the cases. He would try to keep 703 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,360 Speaker 2: all his police work separate from his life. Oh my goodness. 704 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, maybe somebody listening to this will actually have 705 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 1: some kind of information about this case, because how incredible 706 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 1: and how tragic for this woman. 707 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,240 Speaker 2: Her family had no closure on this. It's something that's 708 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,239 Speaker 2: caught me and I just can't let it go either. 709 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 2: And yet, like I said, I've tried to get further records. 710 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,399 Speaker 2: You know, I've tried to talk to older people in 711 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,279 Speaker 2: Mexico and other people in Mexico who might have had 712 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:25,760 Speaker 2: parents or grandparents that talked about it, and nobody has 713 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 2: any idea. But I'm kind of like you. I think 714 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 2: they focused in too quickly and too narrowly. Now, if 715 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 2: I were writing this as a mystery, it would be 716 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,280 Speaker 2: the husband. It would be the husband. Is he strong 717 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 2: enough to do that? Do you think? He was about 718 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:44,239 Speaker 2: five foot eleven? 719 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 1: And of course nobody dug up any bad stuff about him. 720 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:53,799 Speaker 2: Oh, it was a paragon. The governor said this was 721 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 2: the most heinous crime that had ever happened in the 722 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 2: state of Missouri. It was a heinous crime, and I 723 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 2: feel horrible for the family, and like I said, they 724 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 2: had no closure or anything like that. But I can't 725 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,399 Speaker 2: believe it was the most heinous crime that had ever 726 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 2: happened in the state. 727 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,239 Speaker 1: Because it helped into a wealthy, affluent white woman. 728 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 2: That he knew, that he knew and they were close friends. 729 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:16,760 Speaker 2: You know, he and the husband were close friends. 730 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,560 Speaker 1: So we don't know either. This is a stranger who 731 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: took an opportunity. 732 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 2: And that stranger thing. If the two women before had 733 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 2: not been I would have been perfectly willing to go 734 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,279 Speaker 2: along with the stranger simply because it was on a 735 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 2: rail line. That was a time when a lot of 736 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,360 Speaker 2: people were traveling that way, and you know, could have 737 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 2: just jumped off and committed crime. And then the fact 738 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,800 Speaker 2: that it was a third time really makes that unlikely 739 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 2: as far as I'm concerned. So you think it's somebody 740 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,120 Speaker 2: that she knew, I do somebody she was married, she had, 741 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 2: maybe she had had a fair maybe she had an 742 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 2: affair and the person for some reason wanted to cover 743 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,279 Speaker 2: that up. I mean, that's another thing that I've thought 744 00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 2: about too, is she's ten years younger than her husband. 745 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,880 Speaker 2: It's very attractive woman. Maybe you'll get some more information. 746 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 2: I hope soon, I hope I keep locking, digging, digging. 747 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,360 Speaker 3: On the next episode of Wicked Words, his car was 748 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,760 Speaker 3: found along the side of the canal, with his clothes 749 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,919 Speaker 3: nicely folded and his shoes just resting along the canal bank. 750 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,280 Speaker 3: They also found a little black book with one hundred 751 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 3: names in it, boy including notations, most of them women 752 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 3: including notations. Husband works days, only call at night. 753 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 4: So I think we know where this is going. 754 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,360 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my 755 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,239 Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death in the Air. This has 756 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold more Media production Alexis and 757 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,560 Speaker 1: Morosi is our producer, Andrew Epan is our sound designer. 758 00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 1: Ellen Middleton is a researcher for US. Heath does the composition, 759 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,920 Speaker 1: Nick Toga did the artwork, and ILSA Brink designed the website. 760 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:09,280 Speaker 1: The executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff, and Daniel Kramer. 761 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more 762 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,440 Speaker 1: wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. If you are 763 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,319 Speaker 1: an advertiser interested in advertising on our show, go to 764 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: midroll dot com slash ads, and if you know of 765 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 1: a historical true crime story that could use some attention 766 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,879 Speaker 1: from the crew at tenfold more Wicked. Email us at 767 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:31,239 Speaker 1: info at tenfoldmorewicked dot com. Listen, subscribe, and leave us 768 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get 769 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:35,399 Speaker 1: your podcasts.