WEBVTT - Brandon Teena 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:07.400 You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:11.160 Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:14.120 are solely those of the individuals participating in the show 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.680 and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:21.280 This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:24.160 for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:31.360 Hello, everyone, Welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Ivet Gentila. 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:34.760 And I'm Roschia Peccuerero. This week we are covering a 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:37.600 story that is incredibly close to my heart. 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:43.080 Yes, this week, we are talking about Brandonina, a transgender 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:46.000 man whose story was dramatized in the nineteen ninety nine 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:50.280 movie Boys Don't Cry, starring Hillary Swank, and that movie 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:53.640 was inspired by a nineteen ninety four Village Voice article 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.120 about the murder of Brandon Tina, which was written by 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:01.880 Donna Minkowitz. And Donna will be our guest on today's episode. 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:06.800 Yes, I'm very humbled and honored for Donna to be 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:09.640 with us today. She wrote that article back in the 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:12.760 early nineteen nineties, at a time when the stories of 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:17.039 trans people weren't really being covered in the media. Donna's 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:21.440 article is an in depth expose on Brandon, on his community, 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:25.080 and about what happened to him. But the story does 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:29.360 not end there. Donna has had a long and fascinating 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:32.520 journey with the case of Brandon Tina, and we are 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:34.280 going to get into all of that today. 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:37.920 Yes, I'm super excited about having Donna on the show, 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:41.080 but now our producer, mister Trevor Young, is going to 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:42.640 walk us through today's case. 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:49.000 A gruesome triple murder nineteen years ago left emotional scars 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:52.520 on the people of Humboldt, Nebraska. Three people killed, including 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:56.200 Brandon Tina, a twenty one year old transgender Nebraska who 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:58.680 the convicted murder now sits on death row for. 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:01.760 He tried to be true to the kids he was with. 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:07.440 He was put down. Janni al latter his hereby said 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:09.679 to the family of dead and the murder and the 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:11.519 fresh degree murder of Dana Brand. 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:16.320 Brandon Tina was a twenty one year old transgender man 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:19.000 who was killed on New Year's Eve of nineteen ninety 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:23.600 three by two men in Humboldt, Nebraska. Brandon was raised 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:27.160 in Lincoln, Nebraska and grew up in Catholic school, but 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:30.880 he frequently got into trouble, in one instance, for trying 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:34.280 to alter the school uniform to look more masculine. In 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:38.440 November of nineteen ninety three, Brandon moved to Humboldt, Nebraska, 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:42.520 where he started dating eighteen year old Lana Tisdel. Brandon 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:45.560 presented as male to Lana and her friends, who had 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:50.160 no idea he was transgender. Then Brandon met John Latter 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:53.920 and Tom Neeson. John was an ex boyfriend of Lana, 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:57.400 and both men were ex convicts, but the four started 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:01.359 to hang out together. On December ninth, teeenth, Brandon was 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:05.120 arrested for forging checks, and when they arrested him, the 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:07.600 police put him in the women's section of the jail. 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:11.880 This was the first time that Lana realized he was trans. 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:15.560 After Brandon was bailed out, the story of his arrest 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:19.079 was published in the local paper, and Brandon was out 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:22.880 at as transgender to this new group of friends. Late 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:25.400 on the night of Christmas Eve in nineteen ninety three, 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:29.680 Tom Neeson and John Lotter began to harass Brandon about 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:33.880 his gender presentation. They reportedly grabbed Brandon and pulled his 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:38.120 pants down, forcing Laana to look at his genitals. Then 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:41.280 they forced Brandon into John's car and drove him out 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:45.520 to an isolated area where they raped and beat him. Afterwards, 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:48.480 they threatened to kill him if he told anyone, but 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:51.839 Brandon did report the crime to the local sheriff, who 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:55.360 refused to arrest Lotter and Nisson. But the two men 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:58.720 learned about Brandon's attempt to report them, and they decided 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:02.600 to retaliate. On the night of December thirty first, Tom 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:06.000 Neeson and John Lotter found Brandon at a neighbor's house. 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:10.119 The two then shot and stabbed Brandonina, along with two 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:13.760 other people staying at the house. John Lotter and Tom 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:18.000 Neeson were arrested that afternoon. Both men were eventually found 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:22.000 guilty of first degree murder. As of today, Tom Neeson 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:24.839 is serving a life sentence and John Lotter is still 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:29.159 on death row. The murder of Brandonina became the subject 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:32.760 of the nineteen ninety nine movie Boys Don't Cry. It 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:37.919 also helped galvanize the burgeoning transgender rights movement. And so, 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:42.560 who was Brandonina? Why did law enforcement fail to protect Brandon? 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:45.880 And what does this story tell us about the dangers 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:50.120 the trans people face each and every day? 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:56.400 All Right, So today we have a very special guest 0:04:56.440 --> 0:05:00.839 with the long and compelling history with this case, joining 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:05.920 us now to talk about Brandon Tina is author, activists 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:10.880 journalists Donna Minkowitz. You may know her writings from The 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:15.320 New York Times, Salon, the Village Voice, or you may 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:19.240 know some of her many books, including Ferocious Romance and 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:23.320 one that I am obsessively reading as we speak, growing 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:27.680 Up Goalum, Donna, I know that you've been covering the 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:31.400 story of Brandon Tina since the very beginning in nineteen 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:34.679 ninety four, and you know there's so much to discover, 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:37.240 and I know it's been a long journey for you. 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:42.400 So with that being said, welcome to Facing Evil Russia. 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:45.200 And I are so very honored to have you here. 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.240 Well, thank you so much for having me on. I'm 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:49.280 excited to be here. 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:51.360 We're so honored that you're here, Donna. 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:55.240 Yes, yes, So Donna, before we start talking about Brandon, 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:59.520 can you tell our listeners like when you first started 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.400 writing and why you started writing? 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:05.599 Gosh, I don't know if I should count my bad 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:08.120 attempts at poetry in fifth grade. 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:14.159 Yes, I should count that I've always really loved writing 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:14.839 and reading. 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:19.479 It was the thing that made me happy. My childhood 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:23.520 was a little rough, but my mother always really encouraged 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:27.480 me to read and write, you know, and then just 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:30.960 like creating words that were full of beauty and trying 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:34.760 to make something like that. It really really made me happy. 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:37.800 And then when I got to college and I started 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:41.600 getting more politically active, I wanted to write things that 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:44.000 I was passionate about. There were a lot of things 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:47.680 that seemed really unjust to me, and you know, I 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:52.000 wanted to try to change them if I could by 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:52.839 writing something. 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:55.480 I was reading your book, like I said, and I 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:59.279 know that the Village Boys. You know, the newspaper was 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:01.760 very big in your household. Is that correct? 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:02.360 Oh? 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:06.920 Yeah, My whole family loved it. So it was free 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:10.280 back then. It was like nothing else in the media, 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:14.520 you know, whether in New York or anywhere else. It 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.880 had queer stuff back then, and this is the nineteen 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:23.880 seventies when there wasn't queer stuff anywhere outside of like 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:29.360 a gay or lesbian newspaper, certainly not on TV. You know. 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:33.480 They had a lot of left wing stuff, and they 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:37.640 used dirty words, which no other media did in those days. 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:43.080 And my family really liked to read the personal ads, 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:46.680 which were like much better than like those kinds of 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:49.480 things aren't like dating profiles are today. They were just 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:52.000 like very artfully written. There were no photos, so it 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:53.280 had to all be in the writing. 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:56.240 I love that, I know. And when did you start 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:58.400 at the Village Voice, Donna, Well. 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:03.119 I started doing some freelance pieces when I was twenty two. 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:07.200 I was having a really bad time in grad school 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:10.600 for comparative literature, but I started. I started doing some 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:13.280 book reviews for The Voice, and then I left my 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:16.880 grad school program. I moved back to New York City 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:22.160 and I became a freelance copy editor at the Voice, 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:24.560 which meant I got to be in the office and 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:28.440 try to talk to editors. And there was one editor 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:30.680 who was like in charge of all the queer stuff 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:33.400 at the Voice. So I was like, I'm gonna woo. 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:37.120 That man, I'm gonna get my way in. Yeah. 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:40.560 So I did that, and then gradually I was covering 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:43.240 a lot of LGBT stuff at the paper. 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:49.360 So on that point, Donna, did you know about Brandon 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:53.840 Tina's rape and then subsequent murder back when it happened 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:55.680 or is it because you were asked to do the 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:57.199 story for the Village Voice. 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:00.680 I was asked to do it. Actually, not that long 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:05.640 after the murder happened. I think the New York Times 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:10.520 just printed an AP story about Brandon's rape and murder. 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:14.439 And I guess he was murdered in nineteen ninety three, 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:18.120 and it was probably early in the new year that 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:23.240 my editor showed me this AP story and we both thought. 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:26.280 I was like, oh my god, this is an intense 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:30.280 and amazing story. I was really happy that he wanted 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:32.960 me to go and cover it to Nebraska. 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:35.400 Oh so you actually went to Nebraska to cover it. 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:37.880 Oh yeah, wow. 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:38.720 I didn't realize that. 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:39.800 I didn't know that either. 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:44.360 Yeah. I went to Nebraska, so I don't drive. I 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:50.640 still kind of crazy. The New Yorker and I knew 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:55.920 this lesbian documentary filmmaker named Susan Muska, so she came 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:59.040 with me. The Voice paid for some of her travel expenses, 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:03.120 and we went out to Nebraska. Brandon Tina grew up 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:08.320 in Lincoln, and he was murdered when he was living 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:10.920 for a couple months in a very small town, very 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:15.440 conservative small town called Humboldt. So Susan and I went 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:19.600 and interviewed people in both Lincoln and Humboldt. This would 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:21.640 be early nineteen ninety four. 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:24.520 Wow, So right after he was murdered. 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:28.440 Right after he was murdered, it was pretty intense going 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:33.600 to the town. Except for one of Brandon's girlfriends in 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:38.760 the town was Lanna Tisdale. And except for Lana and 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:42.760 her family, no one we spoke to, you know, expressed 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:47.640 sadness or regret that Brandon had been killed. It was 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:52.800 just a very very conservative town. I looked very butch 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:57.400 in those days, and so Susan was traveling with me. 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:03.440 Everyone knew who we were, you know, we were like 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:13.400 the lesbian journalists from New York. But anyway, we we 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:16.600 did talk to people. We interviewed a lot of people, 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:21.040 and we also spoke to Brandon's mother and a lot 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:25.400 of women who Brandon had previously dated, and Lincoln and 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:31.600 also Brandon's gay cousin Maury Oh certainly told us a 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:33.640 lot of stuff that we hadn't known. 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:35.000 Wow. 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:38.800 Wow, I don't know if you've seen whose, but he 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:43.120 was cute. I think Hillary Swank did a good job 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:45.559 of pulling off the handsomeness factory. 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:46.360 And I couldn't agree more. 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:49.760 I think she did an amazing job. And speaking about 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:52.680 you know, boys, Don't Cry. This is a question that 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:57.920 I had for you. When the director of the movie 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:02.240 Boys Don't Cry said that she was inspired by the 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:04.680 piece that you wrote, How did that make you feel? 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:10.400 Well? It made me feel really good because I think 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.480 it's a brilliant movie. I mean, I know that a 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:17.400 number of transactivists do have some problems with the movie, 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:20.920 and I think that's their right. I think their opinion 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:24.280 about how it's portrayed is more important here than mine. 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:29.640 But Kimberly Pierce, the director, actually unfortunately did not say 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:35.240 that for a long time, for many years. 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:39.680 For many years, and I would have appreciated hearing it 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:44.160 because actually, at the time my voice piece came out. 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:47.240 A number of people from Hollywood approached me to option 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:54.720 the story, but nobody really did so I was like, okay, okay, 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:59.960 but anyway, it's fine. You know, no one has property rights, 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:02.480 and the truth they did not have to pay me. 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:06.280 It was not my story, right. I think it's a 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:07.320 brilliant movie. 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:10.720 I agree, Boys Don't Cry. It was absolutely a brilliant movie, 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:13.440 And I love that you can you can tell obviously 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:18.319 you don't have hard feelings about Kimberly. You know, basically 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:21.120 making boys don't cry. I mean, maybe she should have 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:21.719 optioned it. 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:24.880 I think, you know, she didn't have a lot of 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:27.000 money in those days. I didn't have a lot of 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:28.920 money in those days, so it's like, where was the 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:30.400 money going to come from? You know. 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:53.720 So going back to your piece in The Village Voice, 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:56.240 you know, Love Hurts that came out in nineteen ninety four, 0:13:57.080 --> 0:14:01.360 but then you did a retraction into twenty eighteen called 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:05.000 how I Broke and Watched the Brandon Tina Story. And 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:07.920 I have to tell you, Donna, that is incredibly brave 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:11.480 because you didn't have to do that. I would love 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:15.000 to know why why did you decide to write all 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:18.560 these years later that particular piece. 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:22.440 Well, it had really been weighing on my mind for 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:27.880 a long time. My original article was criticized a lot, 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:33.160 you know, by transactivists and people on the side of 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:39.800 transactivists and academics, and I was defensive about this criticism 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:43.680 for quite a while. Yeah, you know, at first I 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:47.360 didn't understand because I thought, well, my piece was on 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:52.200 Brandon Tina's side, and it was only you know, as 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:57.000 the years passed and I started educating myself more about 0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:04.400 trans issues, I realized how ignorant I had been. I 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:08.800 mean back then in nineteen ninety three, I thought many 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:11.480 people sort of in the like the cultural way that 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:16.520 trans people were portrayed. I thought that if someone was trans, 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:20.840 that meant that they surgically altered their body and they 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:25.440 had hormone treatments. I didn't understand that trans people were 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:28.120 just trans and they didn't have to, you know, prove 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:32.200 it by doing anything to their body. And I think 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:36.400 also a lot of us who were sis, gay and 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:41.400 lesbian people were scared of the trans movement for some 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:46.400 really really wrong reasons. But we had this mistaken idea 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:51.080 that trans people were really gay and lesbian people who 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:55.400 wanted to be like, considered normal, so they were going 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:58.520 to be like trans straight people and they were going 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:00.800 to say, like, oh, we're normal, We're just in the 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:06.400 wrong body. So, I mean, I was very ignorant. I 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:10.000 didn't know that there are you know, lesbian trans people 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:12.960 and gay trans people and bisexual trans people. It has 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:18.080 nothing to do with whether you're cis or trans. There's 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:23.440 still all kinds of possible sexual orientation configurations. But I 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:27.320 think I was motivated by this as well. So in 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:31.040 my original piece, I kind of I mean, I wanted 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:34.680 to honor what I thought of as Brandon living as 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:39.520 a man and portraying themselves as a man. But I 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:44.720 didn't understand that Brandon in fact identified as a man 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:49.040 and should be treated as such. So I sort of 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:54.600 took Brandon as a cis lesbian who you know, who wow, 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:57.800 wanted to live as a man. Wow, that was very bold. 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.920 I didn't understand that he was just being himself. So 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.639 I do really regret the way I wrote the piece. 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:10.840 I had been wanting to apologize for years. I actually 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:16.159 sort of apologized quietly in the year twenty fourteen. I 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:19.560 was promoting a book and I was interviewed in a 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:22.119 queer paper in San Francisco, and they said, you have 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:24.600 anything else to say, And I said, oh, I would 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:29.479 like to apologize to the trans community, but not that 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:31.679 many people read it, you know, and I kind of 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:33.639 wanted to do it in a big way. 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:38.320 Well that was a big way, Donna, Yeah, yeah, And 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.080 you know, Donna, I just have to commend you, you know, 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:43.720 because not a lot of people would do that. 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:46.479 They would just you know, blow it off, you know, 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:51.680 but you you know, you obviously thought deeply about this 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:58.640 and evolved right and made an effort to write another 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:04.080 story about you know, how you felt, how you have changed, 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:06.600 you know, because you know, back in the nineties it 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:08.840 was right. It was a different time. We didn't really 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:12.719 know all the things that we know now, you know. 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:15.920 And so when we think about Brandon Tina, like it's 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:20.600 almost thirty years, you know, since his murder, do you 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:25.320 think that society has evolved since then? 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:29.280 I guess I would have to say like yes and no, 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:32.600 like a really strong yes and a really strong no. 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:33.800 You know. 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:39.639 Culturally, the fact that there are musicians who are out 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:45.840 and trans, and authors and some films and TV and 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:51.040 actors who are out, that's wonderful. Yeah, I think the 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:56.879 level of knowledge is dramatically greater. But on the other hand, 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:00.359 you know, we have things like those far right people 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:06.399 really going after trans people viciously, both saying that you know, 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:10.760 trans people are groomers, and you know, passing passing all 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:14.600 these laws like you know, parents who parents who support 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:19.040 their trans kids, you know, can be investigated for child abuse. 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:20.320 Just which is ridiculous. 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:22.760 I think it's a very frightening time to be a 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:25.920 trans person, you know, despite all the advances. 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:29.639 I agree Donna and I think it's so important, just 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:32.919 as you did, you know, back in twenty eighteen, and 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:37.280 you know, years earlier, you showed up as a trans 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:41.320 ally and that's what we want to be here. And 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:44.120 I hope that the world can evolve and catch up 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:47.720 as well. And I think we you've proven that we 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:51.840 have to use our voices for good, right And I 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:54.120 would like to know you did say, you know, even 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:57.280 wanting to, you know, to apologize to the trans community 0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:59.960 for a long time. What made you start to think 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:03.600 think differently? Was there someone in your life that inspired 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:07.359 you or did you like what made it change for 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:08.320 you personally? 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:13.520 Well, one thing was someone in my life, actually not 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:20.679 not a trans person. The woman I married, Karen. Karen 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:24.800 she's a therapist now, but she had been an academic 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:28.600 in gender studies, and you know, when she was teaching 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:31.439 me all this stuff, I knew that she kind of 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:36.159 was better informed about trans people than me, and we 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:38.920 would talk about it and I was like, ah, oh, 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:42.840 she said that, she said that, And you know, I 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:46.960 started looking at her books and thinking about things she said, 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:51.720 and then I really started making an effort to educate 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:56.119 myself more, getting to know more trans people. I teach writing. 0:20:56.280 --> 0:21:00.320 Sometimes I teach memoir writing classes, and I I had 0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:04.199 a student who also worked with me privately, who was 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:07.960 a trans musician working on a memoir and working with 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:10.760 him help me learn a lot as well. 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:12.159 That's so beautiful. 0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:15.000 Yeah, that's you know, I can say the same. It's like, 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:18.360 I'm so lucky, you know, to have my sister, because 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:22.359 you know, just having people in your circle that helped 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:27.439 to educate you makes you a stronger ally. Right, So 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:31.960 your wife, you know, has taught you and different people, 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:35.480 different encounters that you've had in your life. What would 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:39.200 you tell people or tell our listeners, like, what avenues 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:44.679 could they take to educate themselves, you know, to to 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:47.560 find out more about the trans community. 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:52.440 Just thinking about this trans musician who I worked with, 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:56.800 who was my student working with him on his memoir, 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:02.080 I saw so strongly. You know, he's different from me. 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:06.080 It's something I had to learn. Nope, he is not 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:10.360 a lesbian though he's someone who was assigned female at birth. 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:13.919 You know who is attracted to women. He's no, he's not. 0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:18.879 He's different from me. Sometimes it's hard to realize that 0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:24.199 not everyone is like you, right, not being yourself everywhere 0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:27.479 and some people are genuinely different from you. They have 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:32.760 different desires and different needs. So yes, getting getting to 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:37.639 know trans people and also reading. There's a lot of 0:22:38.040 --> 0:22:42.800 great essays out there and books by trans writers and 0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:48.360 trans academics. Oh, there's an excellent book called Brilliant Imperfection 0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:51.640 by a transwriter named Eli Clare. 0:22:52.080 --> 0:22:54.280 Oh, I haven't heard about that one great book. 0:22:54.320 --> 0:22:58.320 He is trans and he is also disabled, and the 0:22:58.359 --> 0:23:02.119 book is kind of about how to come to acceptance 0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:07.159 about things about yourself that you might not love or 0:23:07.200 --> 0:23:10.280 you wish, you wish might be different, but how to 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:13.919 do that and still love yourself. So I find that 0:23:14.560 --> 0:23:19.240 a really helpful book. There's a I believe it's called 0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:23.600 The Transgender Studies Reader, or maybe it's now called the 0:23:23.640 --> 0:23:27.520 trans Studies Reader. But that was that was excellent and 0:23:27.600 --> 0:23:30.240 really informed me a lot. 0:23:50.640 --> 0:23:55.400 So circling back to Brandon, and I know, of course, 0:23:56.480 --> 0:23:59.640 we cannot turn back time and we can't change what happened. 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:01.919 And I know this is a very hard question for 0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:05.600 me to ask you, but so if Brandon would have 0:24:05.720 --> 0:24:11.160 been murdered in twenty twenty three, or even if Brandon 0:24:11.200 --> 0:24:14.440 had reported the rape that happened in twenty twenty three. 0:24:14.720 --> 0:24:17.200 Do you think things would have ended up differently? 0:24:18.240 --> 0:24:22.520 That's a really good question, and I think maybe the 0:24:22.600 --> 0:24:27.320 key further question is where, depending on where it happened, 0:24:28.440 --> 0:24:32.600 I mean, if it had happened in Humboldt, Nebraska, I 0:24:32.760 --> 0:24:35.399 honestly don't know. I think it would have been at 0:24:35.520 --> 0:24:38.800 least a little bit better. I mean, back then, when 0:24:38.880 --> 0:24:42.040 he reported the rape, the sheriff called him an it 0:24:42.640 --> 0:24:45.400 and said, you know, like, what am I supposed to do? 0:24:46.080 --> 0:24:48.920 You know, first you seem to be a boy, then 0:24:48.960 --> 0:24:51.600 you seem to be a girl. The sheriff used his 0:24:51.720 --> 0:24:56.359 own discomfort about Brandon being trans as an excuse not 0:24:56.560 --> 0:25:03.000 to find the rapists and prosecute of the rape. Nissen 0:25:03.160 --> 0:25:06.760 and Louder the rapists had told Brandon that if he 0:25:06.920 --> 0:25:10.000 reported the rape, they would kill him, and that's what 0:25:10.040 --> 0:25:13.240 they did. So I think that Shareff is really to blame. 0:25:14.000 --> 0:25:17.359 But I think if Brandon, you know, we're a young 0:25:17.400 --> 0:25:20.480 person today who was murdered, I think he would be 0:25:20.600 --> 0:25:25.000 identified as a trans man in the press as did 0:25:25.040 --> 0:25:29.840 not happen then. I mean, it's it's hard because I mean, 0:25:29.880 --> 0:25:35.760 of course trans people are still being killed, very widely killed. 0:25:36.359 --> 0:25:41.040 So it's still terrible, even if some of them might 0:25:41.080 --> 0:25:44.640 be identified who as who they are after their deaths. 0:25:45.480 --> 0:25:49.000 Yeah, you're so right, you know. It's it's like we've 0:25:49.040 --> 0:25:52.719 come so far, but yet we're still in the same place, 0:25:52.840 --> 0:25:56.400 so to speak. You know, but if Brandon Tina would 0:25:56.440 --> 0:25:59.000 have been killed in twenty twenty three, say in San 0:25:59.040 --> 0:26:04.400 Francisco or California, maybe it would be very different, right, 0:26:04.560 --> 0:26:07.840 because so many people that are more awake and care 0:26:08.119 --> 0:26:10.040 about the queer community. 0:26:10.600 --> 0:26:15.280 Right, Yeah, there are so many more people who care. 0:26:15.960 --> 0:26:20.359 I think the sad part is, unfortunately the murders. The 0:26:20.440 --> 0:26:24.040