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Speaker 2: Hello, everyone, Welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Ivet Gentila.
Speaker 3: And I'm Roschia Peccuerero. This week we are covering a
Speaker 3: story that is incredibly close to my heart.
Speaker 2: Yes, this week, we are talking about Brandonina, a transgender
Speaker 2: man whose story was dramatized in the nineteen ninety nine
Speaker 2: movie Boys Don't Cry, starring Hillary Swank, and that movie
Speaker 2: was inspired by a nineteen ninety four Village Voice article
Speaker 2: about the murder of Brandon Tina, which was written by
Speaker 2: Donna Minkowitz. And Donna will be our guest on today's episode.
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm very humbled and honored for Donna to be
Speaker 3: with us today. She wrote that article back in the
Speaker 3: early nineteen nineties, at a time when the stories of
Speaker 3: trans people weren't really being covered in the media. Donna's
Speaker 3: article is an in depth expose on Brandon, on his community,
Speaker 3: and about what happened to him. But the story does
Speaker 3: not end there. Donna has had a long and fascinating
Speaker 3: journey with the case of Brandon Tina, and we are
Speaker 3: going to get into all of that today.
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm super excited about having Donna on the show,
Speaker 2: but now our producer, mister Trevor Young, is going to
Speaker 2: walk us through today's case.
Speaker 1: A gruesome triple murder nineteen years ago left emotional scars
Speaker 1: on the people of Humboldt, Nebraska. Three people killed, including
Speaker 1: Brandon Tina, a twenty one year old transgender Nebraska who
Speaker 1: the convicted murder now sits on death row for.
Speaker 4: He tried to be true to the kids he was with.
Speaker 4: He was put down. Janni al latter his hereby said
Speaker 4: to the family of dead and the murder and the
Speaker 4: fresh degree murder of Dana Brand.
Speaker 1: Brandon Tina was a twenty one year old transgender man
Speaker 1: who was killed on New Year's Eve of nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: three by two men in Humboldt, Nebraska. Brandon was raised
Speaker 1: in Lincoln, Nebraska and grew up in Catholic school, but
Speaker 1: he frequently got into trouble, in one instance, for trying
Speaker 1: to alter the school uniform to look more masculine. In
Speaker 1: November of nineteen ninety three, Brandon moved to Humboldt, Nebraska,
Speaker 1: where he started dating eighteen year old Lana Tisdel. Brandon
Speaker 1: presented as male to Lana and her friends, who had
Speaker 1: no idea he was transgender. Then Brandon met John Latter
Speaker 1: and Tom Neeson. John was an ex boyfriend of Lana,
Speaker 1: and both men were ex convicts, but the four started
Speaker 1: to hang out together. On December ninth, teeenth, Brandon was
Speaker 1: arrested for forging checks, and when they arrested him, the
Speaker 1: police put him in the women's section of the jail.
Speaker 1: This was the first time that Lana realized he was trans.
Speaker 1: After Brandon was bailed out, the story of his arrest
Speaker 1: was published in the local paper, and Brandon was out
Speaker 1: at as transgender to this new group of friends. Late
Speaker 1: on the night of Christmas Eve in nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 1: Tom Neeson and John Lotter began to harass Brandon about
Speaker 1: his gender presentation. They reportedly grabbed Brandon and pulled his
Speaker 1: pants down, forcing Laana to look at his genitals. Then
Speaker 1: they forced Brandon into John's car and drove him out
Speaker 1: to an isolated area where they raped and beat him. Afterwards,
Speaker 1: they threatened to kill him if he told anyone, but
Speaker 1: Brandon did report the crime to the local sheriff, who
Speaker 1: refused to arrest Lotter and Nisson. But the two men
Speaker 1: learned about Brandon's attempt to report them, and they decided
Speaker 1: to retaliate. On the night of December thirty first, Tom
Speaker 1: Neeson and John Lotter found Brandon at a neighbor's house.
Speaker 1: The two then shot and stabbed Brandonina, along with two
Speaker 1: other people staying at the house. John Lotter and Tom
Speaker 1: Neeson were arrested that afternoon. Both men were eventually found
Speaker 1: guilty of first degree murder. As of today, Tom Neeson
Speaker 1: is serving a life sentence and John Lotter is still
Speaker 1: on death row. The murder of Brandonina became the subject
Speaker 1: of the nineteen ninety nine movie Boys Don't Cry. It
Speaker 1: also helped galvanize the burgeoning transgender rights movement. And so,
Speaker 1: who was Brandonina? Why did law enforcement fail to protect Brandon?
Speaker 1: And what does this story tell us about the dangers
Speaker 1: the trans people face each and every day?
Speaker 2: All Right, So today we have a very special guest
Speaker 2: with the long and compelling history with this case, joining
Speaker 2: us now to talk about Brandon Tina is author, activists
Speaker 2: journalists Donna Minkowitz. You may know her writings from The
Speaker 2: New York Times, Salon, the Village Voice, or you may
Speaker 2: know some of her many books, including Ferocious Romance and
Speaker 2: one that I am obsessively reading as we speak, growing
Speaker 2: Up Goalum, Donna, I know that you've been covering the
Speaker 2: story of Brandon Tina since the very beginning in nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety four, and you know there's so much to discover,
Speaker 2: and I know it's been a long journey for you.
Speaker 2: So with that being said, welcome to Facing Evil Russia.
Speaker 2: And I are so very honored to have you here.
Speaker 4: Well, thank you so much for having me on. I'm
Speaker 4: excited to be here.
Speaker 3: We're so honored that you're here, Donna.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, So Donna, before we start talking about Brandon,
Speaker 2: can you tell our listeners like when you first started
Speaker 2: writing and why you started writing?
Speaker 4: Gosh, I don't know if I should count my bad
Speaker 4: attempts at poetry in fifth grade.
Speaker 3: Yes, I should count that I've always really loved writing
Speaker 3: and reading.
Speaker 4: It was the thing that made me happy. My childhood
Speaker 4: was a little rough, but my mother always really encouraged
Speaker 4: me to read and write, you know, and then just
Speaker 4: like creating words that were full of beauty and trying
Speaker 4: to make something like that. It really really made me happy.
Speaker 4: And then when I got to college and I started
Speaker 4: getting more politically active, I wanted to write things that
Speaker 4: I was passionate about. There were a lot of things
Speaker 4: that seemed really unjust to me, and you know, I
Speaker 4: wanted to try to change them if I could by
Speaker 4: writing something.
Speaker 2: I was reading your book, like I said, and I
Speaker 2: know that the Village Boys. You know, the newspaper was
Speaker 2: very big in your household. Is that correct?
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 4: Yeah, My whole family loved it. So it was free
Speaker 4: back then. It was like nothing else in the media,
Speaker 4: you know, whether in New York or anywhere else. It
Speaker 4: had queer stuff back then, and this is the nineteen
Speaker 4: seventies when there wasn't queer stuff anywhere outside of like
Speaker 4: a gay or lesbian newspaper, certainly not on TV. You know.
Speaker 4: They had a lot of left wing stuff, and they
Speaker 4: used dirty words, which no other media did in those days.
Speaker 4: And my family really liked to read the personal ads,
Speaker 4: which were like much better than like those kinds of
Speaker 4: things aren't like dating profiles are today. They were just
Speaker 4: like very artfully written. There were no photos, so it
Speaker 4: had to all be in the writing.
Speaker 3: I love that, I know. And when did you start
Speaker 3: at the Village Voice, Donna, Well.
Speaker 4: I started doing some freelance pieces when I was twenty two.
Speaker 4: I was having a really bad time in grad school
Speaker 4: for comparative literature, but I started. I started doing some
Speaker 4: book reviews for The Voice, and then I left my
Speaker 4: grad school program. I moved back to New York City
Speaker 4: and I became a freelance copy editor at the Voice,
Speaker 4: which meant I got to be in the office and
Speaker 4: try to talk to editors. And there was one editor
Speaker 4: who was like in charge of all the queer stuff
Speaker 4: at the Voice. So I was like, I'm gonna woo.
Speaker 3: That man, I'm gonna get my way in. Yeah.
Speaker 4: So I did that, and then gradually I was covering
Speaker 4: a lot of LGBT stuff at the paper.
Speaker 3: So on that point, Donna, did you know about Brandon
Speaker 3: Tina's rape and then subsequent murder back when it happened
Speaker 3: or is it because you were asked to do the
Speaker 3: story for the Village Voice.
Speaker 4: I was asked to do it. Actually, not that long
Speaker 4: after the murder happened. I think the New York Times
Speaker 4: just printed an AP story about Brandon's rape and murder.
Speaker 4: And I guess he was murdered in nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 4: and it was probably early in the new year that
Speaker 4: my editor showed me this AP story and we both thought.
Speaker 4: I was like, oh my god, this is an intense
Speaker 4: and amazing story. I was really happy that he wanted
Speaker 4: me to go and cover it to Nebraska.
Speaker 3: Oh so you actually went to Nebraska to cover it.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, wow.
Speaker 3: I didn't realize that.
Speaker 2: I didn't know that either.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I went to Nebraska, so I don't drive. I
Speaker 4: still kind of crazy. The New Yorker and I knew
Speaker 4: this lesbian documentary filmmaker named Susan Muska, so she came
Speaker 4: with me. The Voice paid for some of her travel expenses,
Speaker 4: and we went out to Nebraska. Brandon Tina grew up
Speaker 4: in Lincoln, and he was murdered when he was living
Speaker 4: for a couple months in a very small town, very
Speaker 4: conservative small town called Humboldt. So Susan and I went
Speaker 4: and interviewed people in both Lincoln and Humboldt. This would
Speaker 4: be early nineteen ninety four.
Speaker 3: Wow, So right after he was murdered.
Speaker 4: Right after he was murdered, it was pretty intense going
Speaker 4: to the town. Except for one of Brandon's girlfriends in
Speaker 4: the town was Lanna Tisdale. And except for Lana and
Speaker 4: her family, no one we spoke to, you know, expressed
Speaker 4: sadness or regret that Brandon had been killed. It was
Speaker 4: just a very very conservative town. I looked very butch
Speaker 4: in those days, and so Susan was traveling with me.
Speaker 4: Everyone knew who we were, you know, we were like
Speaker 4: the lesbian journalists from New York. But anyway, we we
Speaker 4: did talk to people. We interviewed a lot of people,
Speaker 4: and we also spoke to Brandon's mother and a lot
Speaker 4: of women who Brandon had previously dated, and Lincoln and
Speaker 4: also Brandon's gay cousin Maury Oh certainly told us a
Speaker 4: lot of stuff that we hadn't known.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 4: Wow, I don't know if you've seen whose, but he
Speaker 4: was cute. I think Hillary Swank did a good job
Speaker 4: of pulling off the handsomeness factory.
Speaker 3: And I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 2: I think she did an amazing job. And speaking about
Speaker 2: you know, boys, Don't Cry. This is a question that
Speaker 2: I had for you. When the director of the movie
Speaker 2: Boys Don't Cry said that she was inspired by the
Speaker 2: piece that you wrote, How did that make you feel?
Speaker 4: Well? It made me feel really good because I think
Speaker 4: it's a brilliant movie. I mean, I know that a
Speaker 4: number of transactivists do have some problems with the movie,
Speaker 4: and I think that's their right. I think their opinion
Speaker 4: about how it's portrayed is more important here than mine.
Speaker 4: But Kimberly Pierce, the director, actually unfortunately did not say
Speaker 4: that for a long time, for many years.
Speaker 5: For many years, and I would have appreciated hearing it
Speaker 5: because actually, at the time my voice piece came out.
Speaker 4: A number of people from Hollywood approached me to option
Speaker 4: the story, but nobody really did so I was like, okay, okay,
Speaker 4: but anyway, it's fine. You know, no one has property rights,
Speaker 4: and the truth they did not have to pay me.
Speaker 4: It was not my story, right. I think it's a
Speaker 4: brilliant movie.
Speaker 3: I agree, Boys Don't Cry. It was absolutely a brilliant movie,
Speaker 3: And I love that you can you can tell obviously
Speaker 3: you don't have hard feelings about Kimberly. You know, basically
Speaker 3: making boys don't cry. I mean, maybe she should have
Speaker 3: optioned it.
Speaker 4: I think, you know, she didn't have a lot of
Speaker 4: money in those days. I didn't have a lot of
Speaker 4: money in those days, so it's like, where was the
Speaker 4: money going to come from? You know.
Speaker 3: So going back to your piece in The Village Voice,
Speaker 3: you know, Love Hurts that came out in nineteen ninety four,
Speaker 3: but then you did a retraction into twenty eighteen called
Speaker 3: how I Broke and Watched the Brandon Tina Story. And
Speaker 3: I have to tell you, Donna, that is incredibly brave
Speaker 3: because you didn't have to do that. I would love
Speaker 3: to know why why did you decide to write all
Speaker 3: these years later that particular piece.
Speaker 4: Well, it had really been weighing on my mind for
Speaker 4: a long time. My original article was criticized a lot,
Speaker 4: you know, by transactivists and people on the side of
Speaker 4: transactivists and academics, and I was defensive about this criticism
Speaker 4: for quite a while. Yeah, you know, at first I
Speaker 4: didn't understand because I thought, well, my piece was on
Speaker 4: Brandon Tina's side, and it was only you know, as
Speaker 4: the years passed and I started educating myself more about
Speaker 4: trans issues, I realized how ignorant I had been. I
Speaker 4: mean back then in nineteen ninety three, I thought many
Speaker 4: people sort of in the like the cultural way that
Speaker 4: trans people were portrayed. I thought that if someone was trans,
Speaker 4: that meant that they surgically altered their body and they
Speaker 4: had hormone treatments. I didn't understand that trans people were
Speaker 4: just trans and they didn't have to, you know, prove
Speaker 4: it by doing anything to their body. And I think
Speaker 4: also a lot of us who were sis, gay and
Speaker 4: lesbian people were scared of the trans movement for some
Speaker 4: really really wrong reasons. But we had this mistaken idea
Speaker 4: that trans people were really gay and lesbian people who
Speaker 4: wanted to be like, considered normal, so they were going
Speaker 4: to be like trans straight people and they were going
Speaker 4: to say, like, oh, we're normal, We're just in the
Speaker 4: wrong body. So, I mean, I was very ignorant. I
Speaker 4: didn't know that there are you know, lesbian trans people
Speaker 4: and gay trans people and bisexual trans people. It has
Speaker 4: nothing to do with whether you're cis or trans. There's
Speaker 4: still all kinds of possible sexual orientation configurations. But I
Speaker 4: think I was motivated by this as well. So in
Speaker 4: my original piece, I kind of I mean, I wanted
Speaker 4: to honor what I thought of as Brandon living as
Speaker 4: a man and portraying themselves as a man. But I
Speaker 4: didn't understand that Brandon in fact identified as a man
Speaker 4: and should be treated as such. So I sort of
Speaker 4: took Brandon as a cis lesbian who you know, who wow,
Speaker 4: wanted to live as a man. Wow, that was very bold.
Speaker 4: I didn't understand that he was just being himself. So
Speaker 4: I do really regret the way I wrote the piece.
Speaker 4: I had been wanting to apologize for years. I actually
Speaker 4: sort of apologized quietly in the year twenty fourteen. I
Speaker 4: was promoting a book and I was interviewed in a
Speaker 4: queer paper in San Francisco, and they said, you have
Speaker 4: anything else to say, And I said, oh, I would
Speaker 4: like to apologize to the trans community, but not that
Speaker 4: many people read it, you know, and I kind of
Speaker 4: wanted to do it in a big way.
Speaker 3: Well that was a big way, Donna, Yeah, yeah, And
Speaker 3: you know, Donna, I just have to commend you, you know,
Speaker 3: because not a lot of people would do that.
Speaker 2: They would just you know, blow it off, you know,
Speaker 2: but you you know, you obviously thought deeply about this
Speaker 2: and evolved right and made an effort to write another
Speaker 2: story about you know, how you felt, how you have changed,
Speaker 2: you know, because you know, back in the nineties it
Speaker 2: was right. It was a different time. We didn't really
Speaker 2: know all the things that we know now, you know.
Speaker 2: And so when we think about Brandon Tina, like it's
Speaker 2: almost thirty years, you know, since his murder, do you
Speaker 2: think that society has evolved since then?
Speaker 4: I guess I would have to say like yes and no,
Speaker 4: like a really strong yes and a really strong no.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 4: Culturally, the fact that there are musicians who are out
Speaker 4: and trans, and authors and some films and TV and
Speaker 4: actors who are out, that's wonderful. Yeah, I think the
Speaker 4: level of knowledge is dramatically greater. But on the other hand,
Speaker 4: you know, we have things like those far right people
Speaker 4: really going after trans people viciously, both saying that you know,
Speaker 4: trans people are groomers, and you know, passing passing all
Speaker 4: these laws like you know, parents who parents who support
Speaker 4: their trans kids, you know, can be investigated for child abuse.
Speaker 3: Just which is ridiculous.
Speaker 4: I think it's a very frightening time to be a
Speaker 4: trans person, you know, despite all the advances.
Speaker 3: I agree Donna and I think it's so important, just
Speaker 3: as you did, you know, back in twenty eighteen, and
Speaker 3: you know, years earlier, you showed up as a trans
Speaker 3: ally and that's what we want to be here. And
Speaker 3: I hope that the world can evolve and catch up
Speaker 3: as well. And I think we you've proven that we
Speaker 3: have to use our voices for good, right And I
Speaker 3: would like to know you did say, you know, even
Speaker 3: wanting to, you know, to apologize to the trans community
Speaker 3: for a long time. What made you start to think
Speaker 3: think differently? Was there someone in your life that inspired
Speaker 3: you or did you like what made it change for
Speaker 3: you personally?
Speaker 4: Well, one thing was someone in my life, actually not
Speaker 4: not a trans person. The woman I married, Karen. Karen
Speaker 4: she's a therapist now, but she had been an academic
Speaker 4: in gender studies, and you know, when she was teaching
Speaker 4: me all this stuff, I knew that she kind of
Speaker 4: was better informed about trans people than me, and we
Speaker 4: would talk about it and I was like, ah, oh,
Speaker 4: she said that, she said that, And you know, I
Speaker 4: started looking at her books and thinking about things she said,
Speaker 4: and then I really started making an effort to educate
Speaker 4: myself more, getting to know more trans people. I teach writing.
Speaker 4: Sometimes I teach memoir writing classes, and I I had
Speaker 4: a student who also worked with me privately, who was
Speaker 4: a trans musician working on a memoir and working with
Speaker 4: him help me learn a lot as well.
Speaker 3: That's so beautiful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's you know, I can say the same. It's like,
Speaker 2: I'm so lucky, you know, to have my sister, because
Speaker 2: you know, just having people in your circle that helped
Speaker 2: to educate you makes you a stronger ally. Right, So
Speaker 2: your wife, you know, has taught you and different people,
Speaker 2: different encounters that you've had in your life. What would
Speaker 2: you tell people or tell our listeners, like, what avenues
Speaker 2: could they take to educate themselves, you know, to to
Speaker 2: find out more about the trans community.
Speaker 4: Just thinking about this trans musician who I worked with,
Speaker 4: who was my student working with him on his memoir,
Speaker 4: I saw so strongly. You know, he's different from me.
Speaker 4: It's something I had to learn. Nope, he is not
Speaker 4: a lesbian though he's someone who was assigned female at birth.
Speaker 4: You know who is attracted to women. He's no, he's not.
Speaker 4: He's different from me. Sometimes it's hard to realize that
Speaker 4: not everyone is like you, right, not being yourself everywhere
Speaker 4: and some people are genuinely different from you. They have
Speaker 4: different desires and different needs. So yes, getting getting to
Speaker 4: know trans people and also reading. There's a lot of
Speaker 4: great essays out there and books by trans writers and
Speaker 4: trans academics. Oh, there's an excellent book called Brilliant Imperfection
Speaker 4: by a transwriter named Eli Clare.
Speaker 3: Oh, I haven't heard about that one great book.
Speaker 4: He is trans and he is also disabled, and the
Speaker 4: book is kind of about how to come to acceptance
Speaker 4: about things about yourself that you might not love or
Speaker 4: you wish, you wish might be different, but how to
Speaker 4: do that and still love yourself. So I find that
Speaker 4: a really helpful book. There's a I believe it's called
Speaker 4: The Transgender Studies Reader, or maybe it's now called the
Speaker 4: trans Studies Reader. But that was that was excellent and
Speaker 4: really informed me a lot.
Speaker 3: So circling back to Brandon, and I know, of course,
Speaker 3: we cannot turn back time and we can't change what happened.
Speaker 3: And I know this is a very hard question for
Speaker 3: me to ask you, but so if Brandon would have
Speaker 3: been murdered in twenty twenty three, or even if Brandon
Speaker 3: had reported the rape that happened in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 3: Do you think things would have ended up differently?
Speaker 4: That's a really good question, and I think maybe the
Speaker 4: key further question is where, depending on where it happened,
Speaker 4: I mean, if it had happened in Humboldt, Nebraska, I
Speaker 4: honestly don't know. I think it would have been at
Speaker 4: least a little bit better. I mean, back then, when
Speaker 4: he reported the rape, the sheriff called him an it
Speaker 4: and said, you know, like, what am I supposed to do?
Speaker 4: You know, first you seem to be a boy, then
Speaker 4: you seem to be a girl. The sheriff used his
Speaker 4: own discomfort about Brandon being trans as an excuse not
Speaker 4: to find the rapists and prosecute of the rape. Nissen
Speaker 4: and Louder the rapists had told Brandon that if he
Speaker 4: reported the rape, they would kill him, and that's what
Speaker 4: they did. So I think that Shareff is really to blame.
Speaker 4: But I think if Brandon, you know, we're a young
Speaker 4: person today who was murdered, I think he would be
Speaker 4: identified as a trans man in the press as did
Speaker 4: not happen then. I mean, it's it's hard because I mean,
Speaker 4: of course trans people are still being killed, very widely killed.
Speaker 4: So it's still terrible, even if some of them might
Speaker 4: be identified who as who they are after their deaths.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're so right, you know. It's it's like we've
Speaker 2: come so far, but yet we're still in the same place,
Speaker 2: so to speak. You know, but if Brandon Tina would
Speaker 2: have been killed in twenty twenty three, say in San
Speaker 2: Francisco or California, maybe it would be very different, right,
Speaker 2: because so many people that are more awake and care
Speaker 2: about the queer community.
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, there are so many more people who care.
Speaker 4: I think the sad part is, unfortunately the murders. The
Speaker 4: murders do keep happening. I did want to say, you know,
Speaker 4: thinking about the anti trans movement today, the election of
Speaker 4: Donald Trump in twenty sixteen really threw me for a loop.
Speaker 4: I had not thought that things were in danger of
Speaker 4: going so far backward, and even though he was not
Speaker 4: re elected in twenty twenty, the fact that we have
Speaker 4: this huge far right movement now targeting trans people and
Speaker 4: queer people, it's a little hard sometimes to square that
Speaker 4: with my day to day life as someone who lives
Speaker 4: in the town where I don't think someone's gonna beat
Speaker 4: me up for being gay, but knowing that people are
Speaker 4: passing these anti trans laws all over the country. It's
Speaker 4: kind of hard keeping the two things in your mind
Speaker 4: at the same time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it can be hard to compartmentalize it. I
Speaker 3: can see that. You know, we've been developing facing evil
Speaker 3: since we did Root of Evil back in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 3: And one of the first cases I knew we had
Speaker 3: to speak about Brandon. I knew that, and it's because
Speaker 3: I wanted more people that didn't see boys don't cry
Speaker 3: to know about transgender issues or things that are going
Speaker 3: on in the world.
Speaker 4: You were making me think of two years ago here
Speaker 4: in the upstate New York town where I live, we
Speaker 4: had a Queer and Transliberation March that I was one
Speaker 4: of the organizers of, and we had a speak out afterwards,
Speaker 4: and the thing that blew me away was the kids,
Speaker 4: all of these teenage these non binary and trans teenagers
Speaker 4: getting up to speak about themselves. And they made me
Speaker 4: so happy, all of these young people wanting to be
Speaker 4: who they were, changing the nature of how gender is
Speaker 4: understood as we speak.
Speaker 3: I just love them.
Speaker 2: Like you said earlier, you know, the more that you
Speaker 2: educate yourself and you get to know people and you
Speaker 2: read and you do your research, you know, you find
Speaker 2: that we are all so similar in so many ways,
Speaker 2: you know, and just by me, you know, reading your
Speaker 2: book Growing Up galam Like, it was so fascinating to
Speaker 2: me because I could see parts of you know, my
Speaker 2: mother's life and my grandmother's life, like through your book,
Speaker 2: you know, and how you were raised. So we all,
Speaker 2: you know, have a little bit of each other in us,
Speaker 2: you know, That's what I truly believe.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we do. My memoir writing students, they're often afraid, like,
Speaker 4: why would anybody be interested in my life? And I
Speaker 4: tell them, actually, I think every single human beings life
Speaker 4: is interesting. Everyone has absolutely life, you know, you just
Speaker 4: have to write it in such a way that other
Speaker 4: people can see it. But I think to your point
Speaker 4: that we can identify with something in anyone else's life.
Speaker 4: It doesn't have to be exactly the same as ours,
Speaker 4: but we do have very similar basic feelings and needs,
Speaker 4: you know, even if our lives have been very different.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, Donna, if you could please with everything that you
Speaker 3: know about Brandon Tina after going to Nebraska and meeting
Speaker 3: his family and covering the story, what can you tell
Speaker 3: us what did you learn covering Brandon Tina's story and
Speaker 3: who he was as a human being, and what his
Speaker 3: legacy is now.
Speaker 4: When I was starting to work on my apology article
Speaker 4: in twenty eighteen, I went back over a whole box
Speaker 4: of notes I had from nineteen ninety three when I
Speaker 4: was writing the first piece, and I was shocked to
Speaker 4: see a number of things about Brandon that I had forgotten.
Speaker 4: He was only twenty one when he was murdered, and
Speaker 4: he had wanted to be a commercial artist, so I
Speaker 4: had forgotten that had no idea he was interested in
Speaker 4: art at all. Also, his mother said that he was
Speaker 4: really outspoken in the conservative Catholic high school that he
Speaker 4: went to. You know, she said, if the priest said
Speaker 4: one thing he said, you know, he would say the opposite.
Speaker 4: And I actually recently found out that it was specifically
Speaker 4: he was criticizing Catholic hierarchy teachings about homosexuality and contraception.
Speaker 4: I had forgotten this. I had ignored that in my article.
Speaker 4: And I think in nineteen ninety three it was difficult
Speaker 4: to access transgender healthcare, I think in Nebraska or anywhere else,
Speaker 4: but Brandon tried. He went to gender clinics and he
Speaker 4: tried to avail himself of what was out there, but
Speaker 4: it was not easy for him. And something we haven't mentioned,
Speaker 4: you know, his family was poor. He never had a
Speaker 4: high paying job, he often didn't have a job. His
Speaker 4: mother sometimes was on disability. They lived in a trailer park.
Speaker 4: Their friends were also poor, so it was particularly I think,
Speaker 4: not easy for him to access those kinds of services.
Speaker 4: So I guess I want to remember him as someone
Speaker 4: someone who wanted to be an artist, someone who outspoken.
Speaker 4: And I also remember he wrote these kind of really
Speaker 4: like mushy and sweet and romantic cards for his last girlfriend, Lana.
Speaker 3: For Lana, Yes, Yes, and Donna. I have to thank
Speaker 3: you for your words in all of your books, all
Speaker 3: of your different articles, but especially what you've written about
Speaker 3: Brandon and what you have done with your voice. And
Speaker 3: I have to thank you for your bravery and inspiring
Speaker 3: all of us to use our own voices and tell
Speaker 3: our own stories, because, just like you said to your
Speaker 3: writing students, like everyone has a story, and I think
Speaker 3: that's how we can all somehow find common ground and live,
Speaker 3: as cheesy as it sounds, in a more beautiful world.
Speaker 3: Thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Thank you,
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you for being here, Donna.
Speaker 2: I know this is going to be great episode and
Speaker 2: our listeners are going to just be fully engaged because
Speaker 2: you have so much wisdom, so much kindness, so much heart,
Speaker 2: and we so appreciate your time.
Speaker 4: Thank you. It was really great to be with you both.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Donna.
Speaker 2: This week's message of hope and healing is for Brandonina,
Speaker 2: who was adamant about living life as the person he
Speaker 2: truly was in nearly impossible circumstances.
Speaker 3: Brandon Tina was headstrong, outspoken. What kind of impact could
Speaker 3: he have made We'll never know. He shouldn't have had
Speaker 3: to lose his life or live with the fear and abuse,
Speaker 3: but his death helped pave the way for so many
Speaker 3: others after him to live their truth.
Speaker 2: And so this week we move onward and upward by
Speaker 2: recognizing those who face similar struggles.
Speaker 3: If you're on that path today, then we see you
Speaker 3: and we honor you. Onward and upward. Emua, emua. Well,
Speaker 3: that is our show for today.
Speaker 2: We'd love to hear what you thought about today's discussion
Speaker 2: and if there is a case that you'd like us
Speaker 2: to cover, find us on social media at Facing Evil
Speaker 2: Pod or email us at Facingevil Pod at Tenderfoot dot
Speaker 2: tv and one request if you haven't already, please find
Speaker 2: us on iTunes.
Speaker 3: And give us a good review and a good rating.
Speaker 3: If you like what we do, your support is always cherished.
Speaker 2: Until next time.
Speaker 3: Ah Looha.
Speaker 1: Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.
Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Russia Peccuerero and Avet Gentile.
Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk. Donald
Speaker 1: albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of
Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Carolyn Talmadge.
Speaker 1: Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on
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