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Speaker 1: You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and

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Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast

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Speaker 1: are solely those of the individuals participating in the show

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Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV.

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Speaker 1: This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable

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Speaker 1: for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: Hello, everyone, Welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Ivet Gentila.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Roschia Peccuerero. This week we are covering a

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Speaker 3: story that is incredibly close to my heart.

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Speaker 2: Yes, this week, we are talking about Brandonina, a transgender

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Speaker 2: man whose story was dramatized in the nineteen ninety nine

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Speaker 2: movie Boys Don't Cry, starring Hillary Swank, and that movie

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Speaker 2: was inspired by a nineteen ninety four Village Voice article

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Speaker 2: about the murder of Brandon Tina, which was written by

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Speaker 2: Donna Minkowitz. And Donna will be our guest on today's episode.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I'm very humbled and honored for Donna to be

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Speaker 3: with us today. She wrote that article back in the

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Speaker 3: early nineteen nineties, at a time when the stories of

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Speaker 3: trans people weren't really being covered in the media. Donna's

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Speaker 3: article is an in depth expose on Brandon, on his community,

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Speaker 3: and about what happened to him. But the story does

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Speaker 3: not end there. Donna has had a long and fascinating

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Speaker 3: journey with the case of Brandon Tina, and we are

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Speaker 3: going to get into all of that today.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I'm super excited about having Donna on the show,

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Speaker 2: but now our producer, mister Trevor Young, is going to

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Speaker 2: walk us through today's case.

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Speaker 1: A gruesome triple murder nineteen years ago left emotional scars

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Speaker 1: on the people of Humboldt, Nebraska. Three people killed, including

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Speaker 1: Brandon Tina, a twenty one year old transgender Nebraska who

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Speaker 1: the convicted murder now sits on death row for.

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Speaker 4: He tried to be true to the kids he was with.

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Speaker 4: He was put down. Janni al latter his hereby said

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Speaker 4: to the family of dead and the murder and the

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Speaker 4: fresh degree murder of Dana Brand.

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Speaker 1: Brandon Tina was a twenty one year old transgender man

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Speaker 1: who was killed on New Year's Eve of nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: three by two men in Humboldt, Nebraska. Brandon was raised

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Speaker 1: in Lincoln, Nebraska and grew up in Catholic school, but

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Speaker 1: he frequently got into trouble, in one instance, for trying

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Speaker 1: to alter the school uniform to look more masculine. In

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Speaker 1: November of nineteen ninety three, Brandon moved to Humboldt, Nebraska,

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Speaker 1: where he started dating eighteen year old Lana Tisdel. Brandon

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Speaker 1: presented as male to Lana and her friends, who had

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Speaker 1: no idea he was transgender. Then Brandon met John Latter

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Speaker 1: and Tom Neeson. John was an ex boyfriend of Lana,

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Speaker 1: and both men were ex convicts, but the four started

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Speaker 1: to hang out together. On December ninth, teeenth, Brandon was

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Speaker 1: arrested for forging checks, and when they arrested him, the

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Speaker 1: police put him in the women's section of the jail.

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Speaker 1: This was the first time that Lana realized he was trans.

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Speaker 1: After Brandon was bailed out, the story of his arrest

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Speaker 1: was published in the local paper, and Brandon was out

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Speaker 1: at as transgender to this new group of friends. Late

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Speaker 1: on the night of Christmas Eve in nineteen ninety three,

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Speaker 1: Tom Neeson and John Lotter began to harass Brandon about

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Speaker 1: his gender presentation. They reportedly grabbed Brandon and pulled his

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Speaker 1: pants down, forcing Laana to look at his genitals. Then

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Speaker 1: they forced Brandon into John's car and drove him out

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Speaker 1: to an isolated area where they raped and beat him. Afterwards,

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Speaker 1: they threatened to kill him if he told anyone, but

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Speaker 1: Brandon did report the crime to the local sheriff, who

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Speaker 1: refused to arrest Lotter and Nisson. But the two men

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Speaker 1: learned about Brandon's attempt to report them, and they decided

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Speaker 1: to retaliate. On the night of December thirty first, Tom

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Speaker 1: Neeson and John Lotter found Brandon at a neighbor's house.

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Speaker 1: The two then shot and stabbed Brandonina, along with two

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Speaker 1: other people staying at the house. John Lotter and Tom

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Speaker 1: Neeson were arrested that afternoon. Both men were eventually found

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Speaker 1: guilty of first degree murder. As of today, Tom Neeson

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Speaker 1: is serving a life sentence and John Lotter is still

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Speaker 1: on death row. The murder of Brandonina became the subject

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Speaker 1: of the nineteen ninety nine movie Boys Don't Cry. It

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Speaker 1: also helped galvanize the burgeoning transgender rights movement. And so,

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Speaker 1: who was Brandonina? Why did law enforcement fail to protect Brandon?

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Speaker 1: And what does this story tell us about the dangers

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Speaker 1: the trans people face each and every day?

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Speaker 2: All Right, So today we have a very special guest

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Speaker 2: with the long and compelling history with this case, joining

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Speaker 2: us now to talk about Brandon Tina is author, activists

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Speaker 2: journalists Donna Minkowitz. You may know her writings from The

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Speaker 2: New York Times, Salon, the Village Voice, or you may

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Speaker 2: know some of her many books, including Ferocious Romance and

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Speaker 2: one that I am obsessively reading as we speak, growing

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Speaker 2: Up Goalum, Donna, I know that you've been covering the

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Speaker 2: story of Brandon Tina since the very beginning in nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety four, and you know there's so much to discover,

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Speaker 2: and I know it's been a long journey for you.

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Speaker 2: So with that being said, welcome to Facing Evil Russia.

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Speaker 2: And I are so very honored to have you here.

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Speaker 4: Well, thank you so much for having me on. I'm

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Speaker 4: excited to be here.

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Speaker 3: We're so honored that you're here, Donna.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, So Donna, before we start talking about Brandon,

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Speaker 2: can you tell our listeners like when you first started

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Speaker 2: writing and why you started writing?

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Speaker 4: Gosh, I don't know if I should count my bad

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Speaker 4: attempts at poetry in fifth grade.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I should count that I've always really loved writing

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Speaker 3: and reading.

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Speaker 4: It was the thing that made me happy. My childhood

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Speaker 4: was a little rough, but my mother always really encouraged

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Speaker 4: me to read and write, you know, and then just

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Speaker 4: like creating words that were full of beauty and trying

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Speaker 4: to make something like that. It really really made me happy.

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Speaker 4: And then when I got to college and I started

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Speaker 4: getting more politically active, I wanted to write things that

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Speaker 4: I was passionate about. There were a lot of things

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Speaker 4: that seemed really unjust to me, and you know, I

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Speaker 4: wanted to try to change them if I could by

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Speaker 4: writing something.

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Speaker 2: I was reading your book, like I said, and I

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Speaker 2: know that the Village Boys. You know, the newspaper was

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Speaker 2: very big in your household. Is that correct?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, My whole family loved it. So it was free

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Speaker 4: back then. It was like nothing else in the media,

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Speaker 4: you know, whether in New York or anywhere else. It

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Speaker 4: had queer stuff back then, and this is the nineteen

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Speaker 4: seventies when there wasn't queer stuff anywhere outside of like

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Speaker 4: a gay or lesbian newspaper, certainly not on TV. You know.

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Speaker 4: They had a lot of left wing stuff, and they

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Speaker 4: used dirty words, which no other media did in those days.

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Speaker 4: And my family really liked to read the personal ads,

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Speaker 4: which were like much better than like those kinds of

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Speaker 4: things aren't like dating profiles are today. They were just

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Speaker 4: like very artfully written. There were no photos, so it

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Speaker 4: had to all be in the writing.

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Speaker 3: I love that, I know. And when did you start

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Speaker 3: at the Village Voice, Donna, Well.

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Speaker 4: I started doing some freelance pieces when I was twenty two.

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Speaker 4: I was having a really bad time in grad school

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Speaker 4: for comparative literature, but I started. I started doing some

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Speaker 4: book reviews for The Voice, and then I left my

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Speaker 4: grad school program. I moved back to New York City

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Speaker 4: and I became a freelance copy editor at the Voice,

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Speaker 4: which meant I got to be in the office and

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Speaker 4: try to talk to editors. And there was one editor

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Speaker 4: who was like in charge of all the queer stuff

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Speaker 4: at the Voice. So I was like, I'm gonna woo.

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Speaker 3: That man, I'm gonna get my way in. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So I did that, and then gradually I was covering

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Speaker 4: a lot of LGBT stuff at the paper.

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Speaker 3: So on that point, Donna, did you know about Brandon

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Speaker 3: Tina's rape and then subsequent murder back when it happened

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Speaker 3: or is it because you were asked to do the

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Speaker 3: story for the Village Voice.

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Speaker 4: I was asked to do it. Actually, not that long

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Speaker 4: after the murder happened. I think the New York Times

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Speaker 4: just printed an AP story about Brandon's rape and murder.

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Speaker 4: And I guess he was murdered in nineteen ninety three,

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Speaker 4: and it was probably early in the new year that

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Speaker 4: my editor showed me this AP story and we both thought.

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Speaker 4: I was like, oh my god, this is an intense

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Speaker 4: and amazing story. I was really happy that he wanted

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Speaker 4: me to go and cover it to Nebraska.

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Speaker 3: Oh so you actually went to Nebraska to cover it.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, wow.

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Speaker 3: I didn't realize that.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know that either.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I went to Nebraska, so I don't drive. I

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Speaker 4: still kind of crazy. The New Yorker and I knew

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Speaker 4: this lesbian documentary filmmaker named Susan Muska, so she came

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Speaker 4: with me. The Voice paid for some of her travel expenses,

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Speaker 4: and we went out to Nebraska. Brandon Tina grew up

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Speaker 4: in Lincoln, and he was murdered when he was living

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Speaker 4: for a couple months in a very small town, very

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Speaker 4: conservative small town called Humboldt. So Susan and I went

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Speaker 4: and interviewed people in both Lincoln and Humboldt. This would

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Speaker 4: be early nineteen ninety four.

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Speaker 3: Wow, So right after he was murdered.

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Speaker 4: Right after he was murdered, it was pretty intense going

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Speaker 4: to the town. Except for one of Brandon's girlfriends in

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Speaker 4: the town was Lanna Tisdale. And except for Lana and

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Speaker 4: her family, no one we spoke to, you know, expressed

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Speaker 4: sadness or regret that Brandon had been killed. It was

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Speaker 4: just a very very conservative town. I looked very butch

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Speaker 4: in those days, and so Susan was traveling with me.

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Speaker 4: Everyone knew who we were, you know, we were like

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Speaker 4: the lesbian journalists from New York. But anyway, we we

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Speaker 4: did talk to people. We interviewed a lot of people,

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Speaker 4: and we also spoke to Brandon's mother and a lot

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Speaker 4: of women who Brandon had previously dated, and Lincoln and

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Speaker 4: also Brandon's gay cousin Maury Oh certainly told us a

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Speaker 4: lot of stuff that we hadn't known.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 4: Wow, I don't know if you've seen whose, but he

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Speaker 4: was cute. I think Hillary Swank did a good job

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Speaker 4: of pulling off the handsomeness factory.

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Speaker 3: And I couldn't agree more.

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Speaker 2: I think she did an amazing job. And speaking about

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Speaker 2: you know, boys, Don't Cry. This is a question that

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Speaker 2: I had for you. When the director of the movie

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Speaker 2: Boys Don't Cry said that she was inspired by the

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Speaker 2: piece that you wrote, How did that make you feel?

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Speaker 4: Well? It made me feel really good because I think

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Speaker 4: it's a brilliant movie. I mean, I know that a

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Speaker 4: number of transactivists do have some problems with the movie,

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Speaker 4: and I think that's their right. I think their opinion

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Speaker 4: about how it's portrayed is more important here than mine.

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Speaker 4: But Kimberly Pierce, the director, actually unfortunately did not say

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Speaker 4: that for a long time, for many years.

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Speaker 5: For many years, and I would have appreciated hearing it

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Speaker 5: because actually, at the time my voice piece came out.

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Speaker 4: A number of people from Hollywood approached me to option

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Speaker 4: the story, but nobody really did so I was like, okay, okay,

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Speaker 4: but anyway, it's fine. You know, no one has property rights,

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Speaker 4: and the truth they did not have to pay me.

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Speaker 4: It was not my story, right. I think it's a

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Speaker 4: brilliant movie.

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Speaker 3: I agree, Boys Don't Cry. It was absolutely a brilliant movie,

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Speaker 3: And I love that you can you can tell obviously

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Speaker 3: you don't have hard feelings about Kimberly. You know, basically

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Speaker 3: making boys don't cry. I mean, maybe she should have

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Speaker 3: optioned it.

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Speaker 4: I think, you know, she didn't have a lot of

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Speaker 4: money in those days. I didn't have a lot of

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Speaker 4: money in those days, so it's like, where was the

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Speaker 4: money going to come from? You know.

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Speaker 3: So going back to your piece in The Village Voice,

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Speaker 3: you know, Love Hurts that came out in nineteen ninety four,

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Speaker 3: but then you did a retraction into twenty eighteen called

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Speaker 3: how I Broke and Watched the Brandon Tina Story. And

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Speaker 3: I have to tell you, Donna, that is incredibly brave

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Speaker 3: because you didn't have to do that. I would love

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Speaker 3: to know why why did you decide to write all

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Speaker 3: these years later that particular piece.

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Speaker 4: Well, it had really been weighing on my mind for

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Speaker 4: a long time. My original article was criticized a lot,

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Speaker 4: you know, by transactivists and people on the side of

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Speaker 4: transactivists and academics, and I was defensive about this criticism

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Speaker 4: for quite a while. Yeah, you know, at first I

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Speaker 4: didn't understand because I thought, well, my piece was on

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Speaker 4: Brandon Tina's side, and it was only you know, as

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Speaker 4: the years passed and I started educating myself more about

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Speaker 4: trans issues, I realized how ignorant I had been. I

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Speaker 4: mean back then in nineteen ninety three, I thought many

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Speaker 4: people sort of in the like the cultural way that

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Speaker 4: trans people were portrayed. I thought that if someone was trans,

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Speaker 4: that meant that they surgically altered their body and they

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Speaker 4: had hormone treatments. I didn't understand that trans people were

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Speaker 4: just trans and they didn't have to, you know, prove

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Speaker 4: it by doing anything to their body. And I think

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Speaker 4: also a lot of us who were sis, gay and

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Speaker 4: lesbian people were scared of the trans movement for some

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Speaker 4: really really wrong reasons. But we had this mistaken idea

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Speaker 4: that trans people were really gay and lesbian people who

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Speaker 4: wanted to be like, considered normal, so they were going

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Speaker 4: to be like trans straight people and they were going

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Speaker 4: to say, like, oh, we're normal, We're just in the

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Speaker 4: wrong body. So, I mean, I was very ignorant. I

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Speaker 4: didn't know that there are you know, lesbian trans people

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Speaker 4: and gay trans people and bisexual trans people. It has

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Speaker 4: nothing to do with whether you're cis or trans. There's

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Speaker 4: still all kinds of possible sexual orientation configurations. But I

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Speaker 4: think I was motivated by this as well. So in

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Speaker 4: my original piece, I kind of I mean, I wanted

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Speaker 4: to honor what I thought of as Brandon living as

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Speaker 4: a man and portraying themselves as a man. But I

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Speaker 4: didn't understand that Brandon in fact identified as a man

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Speaker 4: and should be treated as such. So I sort of

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Speaker 4: took Brandon as a cis lesbian who you know, who wow,

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Speaker 4: wanted to live as a man. Wow, that was very bold.

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Speaker 4: I didn't understand that he was just being himself. So

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Speaker 4: I do really regret the way I wrote the piece.

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Speaker 4: I had been wanting to apologize for years. I actually

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Speaker 4: sort of apologized quietly in the year twenty fourteen. I

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Speaker 4: was promoting a book and I was interviewed in a

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Speaker 4: queer paper in San Francisco, and they said, you have

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Speaker 4: anything else to say, And I said, oh, I would

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Speaker 4: like to apologize to the trans community, but not that

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Speaker 4: many people read it, you know, and I kind of

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Speaker 4: wanted to do it in a big way.

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Speaker 3: Well that was a big way, Donna, Yeah, yeah, And

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Speaker 3: you know, Donna, I just have to commend you, you know,

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Speaker 3: because not a lot of people would do that.

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Speaker 2: They would just you know, blow it off, you know,

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Speaker 2: but you you know, you obviously thought deeply about this

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Speaker 2: and evolved right and made an effort to write another

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Speaker 2: story about you know, how you felt, how you have changed,

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Speaker 2: you know, because you know, back in the nineties it

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Speaker 2: was right. It was a different time. We didn't really

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Speaker 2: know all the things that we know now, you know.

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Speaker 2: And so when we think about Brandon Tina, like it's

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Speaker 2: almost thirty years, you know, since his murder, do you

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Speaker 2: think that society has evolved since then?

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Speaker 4: I guess I would have to say like yes and no,

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Speaker 4: like a really strong yes and a really strong no.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 4: Culturally, the fact that there are musicians who are out

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Speaker 4: and trans, and authors and some films and TV and

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Speaker 4: actors who are out, that's wonderful. Yeah, I think the

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Speaker 4: level of knowledge is dramatically greater. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 4: you know, we have things like those far right people

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Speaker 4: really going after trans people viciously, both saying that you know,

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Speaker 4: trans people are groomers, and you know, passing passing all

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Speaker 4: these laws like you know, parents who parents who support

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Speaker 4: their trans kids, you know, can be investigated for child abuse.

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Speaker 3: Just which is ridiculous.

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Speaker 4: I think it's a very frightening time to be a

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Speaker 4: trans person, you know, despite all the advances.

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Speaker 3: I agree Donna and I think it's so important, just

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Speaker 3: as you did, you know, back in twenty eighteen, and

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Speaker 3: you know, years earlier, you showed up as a trans

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Speaker 3: ally and that's what we want to be here. And

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Speaker 3: I hope that the world can evolve and catch up

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Speaker 3: as well. And I think we you've proven that we

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Speaker 3: have to use our voices for good, right And I

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Speaker 3: would like to know you did say, you know, even

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Speaker 3: wanting to, you know, to apologize to the trans community

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Speaker 3: for a long time. What made you start to think

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Speaker 3: think differently? Was there someone in your life that inspired

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Speaker 3: you or did you like what made it change for

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Speaker 3: you personally?

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Speaker 4: Well, one thing was someone in my life, actually not

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Speaker 4: not a trans person. The woman I married, Karen. Karen

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Speaker 4: she's a therapist now, but she had been an academic

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Speaker 4: in gender studies, and you know, when she was teaching

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Speaker 4: me all this stuff, I knew that she kind of

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Speaker 4: was better informed about trans people than me, and we

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Speaker 4: would talk about it and I was like, ah, oh,

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Speaker 4: she said that, she said that, And you know, I

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Speaker 4: started looking at her books and thinking about things she said,

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Speaker 4: and then I really started making an effort to educate

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Speaker 4: myself more, getting to know more trans people. I teach writing.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes I teach memoir writing classes, and I I had

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Speaker 4: a student who also worked with me privately, who was

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Speaker 4: a trans musician working on a memoir and working with

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Speaker 4: him help me learn a lot as well.

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Speaker 3: That's so beautiful.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's you know, I can say the same. It's like,

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Speaker 2: I'm so lucky, you know, to have my sister, because

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Speaker 2: you know, just having people in your circle that helped

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Speaker 2: to educate you makes you a stronger ally. Right, So

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Speaker 2: your wife, you know, has taught you and different people,

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Speaker 2: different encounters that you've had in your life. What would

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Speaker 2: you tell people or tell our listeners, like, what avenues

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Speaker 2: could they take to educate themselves, you know, to to

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Speaker 2: find out more about the trans community.

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Speaker 4: Just thinking about this trans musician who I worked with,

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Speaker 4: who was my student working with him on his memoir,

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Speaker 4: I saw so strongly. You know, he's different from me.

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Speaker 4: It's something I had to learn. Nope, he is not

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Speaker 4: a lesbian though he's someone who was assigned female at birth.

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Speaker 4: You know who is attracted to women. He's no, he's not.

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Speaker 4: He's different from me. Sometimes it's hard to realize that

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Speaker 4: not everyone is like you, right, not being yourself everywhere

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Speaker 4: and some people are genuinely different from you. They have

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Speaker 4: different desires and different needs. So yes, getting getting to

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Speaker 4: know trans people and also reading. There's a lot of

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Speaker 4: great essays out there and books by trans writers and

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Speaker 4: trans academics. Oh, there's an excellent book called Brilliant Imperfection

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Speaker 4: by a transwriter named Eli Clare.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I haven't heard about that one great book.

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Speaker 4: He is trans and he is also disabled, and the

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Speaker 4: book is kind of about how to come to acceptance

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Speaker 4: about things about yourself that you might not love or

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Speaker 4: you wish, you wish might be different, but how to

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Speaker 4: do that and still love yourself. So I find that

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Speaker 4: a really helpful book. There's a I believe it's called

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Speaker 4: The Transgender Studies Reader, or maybe it's now called the

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Speaker 4: trans Studies Reader. But that was that was excellent and

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Speaker 4: really informed me a lot.

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Speaker 3: So circling back to Brandon, and I know, of course,

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Speaker 3: we cannot turn back time and we can't change what happened.

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Speaker 3: And I know this is a very hard question for

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Speaker 3: me to ask you, but so if Brandon would have

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Speaker 3: been murdered in twenty twenty three, or even if Brandon

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Speaker 3: had reported the rape that happened in twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 3: Do you think things would have ended up differently?

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Speaker 4: That's a really good question, and I think maybe the

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Speaker 4: key further question is where, depending on where it happened,

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Speaker 4: I mean, if it had happened in Humboldt, Nebraska, I

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Speaker 4: honestly don't know. I think it would have been at

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Speaker 4: least a little bit better. I mean, back then, when

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Speaker 4: he reported the rape, the sheriff called him an it

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Speaker 4: and said, you know, like, what am I supposed to do?

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Speaker 4: You know, first you seem to be a boy, then

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Speaker 4: you seem to be a girl. The sheriff used his

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Speaker 4: own discomfort about Brandon being trans as an excuse not

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Speaker 4: to find the rapists and prosecute of the rape. Nissen

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Speaker 4: and Louder the rapists had told Brandon that if he

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Speaker 4: reported the rape, they would kill him, and that's what

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Speaker 4: they did. So I think that Shareff is really to blame.

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Speaker 4: But I think if Brandon, you know, we're a young

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Speaker 4: person today who was murdered, I think he would be

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Speaker 4: identified as a trans man in the press as did

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Speaker 4: not happen then. I mean, it's it's hard because I mean,

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Speaker 4: of course trans people are still being killed, very widely killed.

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Speaker 4: So it's still terrible, even if some of them might

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Speaker 4: be identified who as who they are after their deaths.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're so right, you know. It's it's like we've

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Speaker 2: come so far, but yet we're still in the same place,

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Speaker 2: so to speak. You know, but if Brandon Tina would

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Speaker 2: have been killed in twenty twenty three, say in San

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Speaker 2: Francisco or California, maybe it would be very different, right,

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Speaker 2: because so many people that are more awake and care

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Speaker 2: about the queer community.

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Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, there are so many more people who care.

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Speaker 4: I think the sad part is, unfortunately the murders. The

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Speaker 4: murders do keep happening. I did want to say, you know,

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Speaker 4: thinking about the anti trans movement today, the election of

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Speaker 4: Donald Trump in twenty sixteen really threw me for a loop.

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Speaker 4: I had not thought that things were in danger of

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Speaker 4: going so far backward, and even though he was not

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Speaker 4: re elected in twenty twenty, the fact that we have

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Speaker 4: this huge far right movement now targeting trans people and

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Speaker 4: queer people, it's a little hard sometimes to square that

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Speaker 4: with my day to day life as someone who lives

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Speaker 4: in the town where I don't think someone's gonna beat

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Speaker 4: me up for being gay, but knowing that people are

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Speaker 4: passing these anti trans laws all over the country. It's

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Speaker 4: kind of hard keeping the two things in your mind

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Speaker 4: at the same time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it can be hard to compartmentalize it. I

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Speaker 3: can see that. You know, we've been developing facing evil

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Speaker 3: since we did Root of Evil back in twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 3: And one of the first cases I knew we had

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Speaker 3: to speak about Brandon. I knew that, and it's because

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Speaker 3: I wanted more people that didn't see boys don't cry

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Speaker 3: to know about transgender issues or things that are going

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Speaker 3: on in the world.

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Speaker 4: You were making me think of two years ago here

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Speaker 4: in the upstate New York town where I live, we

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Speaker 4: had a Queer and Transliberation March that I was one

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Speaker 4: of the organizers of, and we had a speak out afterwards,

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Speaker 4: and the thing that blew me away was the kids,

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Speaker 4: all of these teenage these non binary and trans teenagers

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Speaker 4: getting up to speak about themselves. And they made me

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Speaker 4: so happy, all of these young people wanting to be

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Speaker 4: who they were, changing the nature of how gender is

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Speaker 4: understood as we speak.

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Speaker 3: I just love them.

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Speaker 2: Like you said earlier, you know, the more that you

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Speaker 2: educate yourself and you get to know people and you

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Speaker 2: read and you do your research, you know, you find

437
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 2: that we are all so similar in so many ways,

438
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 2: you know, and just by me, you know, reading your

439
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 2: book Growing Up galam Like, it was so fascinating to

440
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 2: me because I could see parts of you know, my

441
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 2: mother's life and my grandmother's life, like through your book,

442
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 2: you know, and how you were raised. So we all,

443
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 2: you know, have a little bit of each other in us,

444
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 2: you know, That's what I truly believe.

445
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, we do. My memoir writing students, they're often afraid, like,

446
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 4: why would anybody be interested in my life? And I

447
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 4: tell them, actually, I think every single human beings life

448
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 4: is interesting. Everyone has absolutely life, you know, you just

449
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 4: have to write it in such a way that other

450
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 4: people can see it. But I think to your point

451
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 4: that we can identify with something in anyone else's life.

452
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 4: It doesn't have to be exactly the same as ours,

453
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 4: but we do have very similar basic feelings and needs,

454
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 4: you know, even if our lives have been very different.

455
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 3: Absolutely, Donna, if you could please with everything that you

456
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 3: know about Brandon Tina after going to Nebraska and meeting

457
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 3: his family and covering the story, what can you tell

458
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 3: us what did you learn covering Brandon Tina's story and

459
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 3: who he was as a human being, and what his

460
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 3: legacy is now.

461
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 4: When I was starting to work on my apology article

462
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,959
Speaker 4: in twenty eighteen, I went back over a whole box

463
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 4: of notes I had from nineteen ninety three when I

464
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,239
Speaker 4: was writing the first piece, and I was shocked to

465
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 4: see a number of things about Brandon that I had forgotten.

466
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 4: He was only twenty one when he was murdered, and

467
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 4: he had wanted to be a commercial artist, so I

468
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 4: had forgotten that had no idea he was interested in

469
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 4: art at all. Also, his mother said that he was

470
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 4: really outspoken in the conservative Catholic high school that he

471
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 4: went to. You know, she said, if the priest said

472
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 4: one thing he said, you know, he would say the opposite.

473
00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 4: And I actually recently found out that it was specifically

474
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 4: he was criticizing Catholic hierarchy teachings about homosexuality and contraception.

475
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 4: I had forgotten this. I had ignored that in my article.

476
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 4: And I think in nineteen ninety three it was difficult

477
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 4: to access transgender healthcare, I think in Nebraska or anywhere else,

478
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 4: but Brandon tried. He went to gender clinics and he

479
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,479
Speaker 4: tried to avail himself of what was out there, but

480
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 4: it was not easy for him. And something we haven't mentioned,

481
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 4: you know, his family was poor. He never had a

482
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 4: high paying job, he often didn't have a job. His

483
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 4: mother sometimes was on disability. They lived in a trailer park.

484
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 4: Their friends were also poor, so it was particularly I think,

485
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 4: not easy for him to access those kinds of services.

486
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 4: So I guess I want to remember him as someone

487
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 4: someone who wanted to be an artist, someone who outspoken.

488
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 4: And I also remember he wrote these kind of really

489
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 4: like mushy and sweet and romantic cards for his last girlfriend, Lana.

490
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 3: For Lana, Yes, Yes, and Donna. I have to thank

491
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 3: you for your words in all of your books, all

492
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 3: of your different articles, but especially what you've written about

493
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 3: Brandon and what you have done with your voice. And

494
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 3: I have to thank you for your bravery and inspiring

495
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 3: all of us to use our own voices and tell

496
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 3: our own stories, because, just like you said to your

497
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 3: writing students, like everyone has a story, and I think

498
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 3: that's how we can all somehow find common ground and live,

499
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 3: as cheesy as it sounds, in a more beautiful world.

500
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 3: Thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Thank you,

501
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you for being here, Donna.

502
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 2: I know this is going to be great episode and

503
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 2: our listeners are going to just be fully engaged because

504
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 2: you have so much wisdom, so much kindness, so much heart,

505
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 2: and we so appreciate your time.

506
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 4: Thank you. It was really great to be with you both.

507
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Donna.

508
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 2: This week's message of hope and healing is for Brandonina,

509
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 2: who was adamant about living life as the person he

510
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 2: truly was in nearly impossible circumstances.

511
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 3: Brandon Tina was headstrong, outspoken. What kind of impact could

512
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 3: he have made We'll never know. He shouldn't have had

513
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 3: to lose his life or live with the fear and abuse,

514
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 3: but his death helped pave the way for so many

515
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 3: others after him to live their truth.

516
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 2: And so this week we move onward and upward by

517
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 2: recognizing those who face similar struggles.

518
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 3: If you're on that path today, then we see you

519
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 3: and we honor you. Onward and upward. Emua, emua. Well,

520
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 3: that is our show for today.

521
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 2: We'd love to hear what you thought about today's discussion

522
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 2: and if there is a case that you'd like us

523
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 2: to cover, find us on social media at Facing Evil

524
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,439
Speaker 2: Pod or email us at Facingevil Pod at Tenderfoot dot

525
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 2: tv and one request if you haven't already, please find

526
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: us on iTunes.

527
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 3: And give us a good review and a good rating.

528
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 3: If you like what we do, your support is always cherished.

529
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 2: Until next time.

530
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:56,760
Speaker 3: Ah Looha.

531
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.

532
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Russia Peccuerero and Avet Gentile.

533
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf

534
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk. Donald

535
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of

536
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Carolyn Talmadge.

537
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on

538
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:39,280
Speaker 1: social media or email us at Facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv.

539
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the

540
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

541
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Speaker 1: favorite shows