1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:10,040 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a star witness in the 2 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: Alex Murdock double murder trial, now probing the mysterious death 3 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 1: of Buster Murdog's former classmate. I'm Nancy Grace. This is 4 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. 5 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: That's right, a star witness in the Alex Murdock double 6 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 1: murder trial is now all on their own investigating the 7 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: death of a young man found in the road, deceased 8 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: Stephen Smith, insisting quote, someone has a good idea who 9 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 1: did this crime. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. 10 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us. It's 11 00:00:55,800 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: Kenny Kinsey, an incredible witness on the stand. A forensic investigator. 12 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: Kensey testified for the prosecution in the double murder trial 13 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: of Alexa Murdog. He said on Ann Emerson's Criminally Obsessed 14 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: podcast that after reviewing the evidence, he believes many, many 15 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: chances to save Stephen Smith's case were missed early on 16 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: now as you recall Stephen Smith as a teen nursing student, 17 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: former classmate of Buster Murdog. He was found dead in 18 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: the middle of a rural highway there in Hampton County, 19 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: South Carolina, very near the Murdog's hunting lodge known as Mozelle. 20 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: What do we know about Smith's death? Was it murder? 21 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: Segment two? Buster Murdog is in no way implicated in 22 00:01:54,760 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: Stephen Smith's death. Now, Smith, openly gay, was walking along 23 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: Sandy Run Road after his car broke down. A driver 24 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: called nine one one later to report Stephen's body. He 25 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: had a seven and a half inch skull fracture. Now, 26 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: authorities initially thought this was a hit and run. That 27 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: determination now subject to challenge. What happened? As we all know, 28 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: Stephen Smith, a young teen, openly gay, and a rural 29 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: area in South Carolina. Body found by a stranger a 30 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: passers by about three o'clock. 31 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 2: In the morning, ish very dark road. 32 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: There is no There are no skid marks, No, we 33 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: find no abrasions on his body to suggest he was 34 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,239 Speaker 1: hit and then dragged along the asphalt. 35 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 2: There is no sign of. 36 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: Plastic, glass, metal, anything from a car. This is a 37 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: major major development and joining me right now, high profile 38 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: lawyer out of Jacksonville, Del Carson, author of Arrest Proof Yourself, 39 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: former FBI agent with the FEDS. Dal thank you for 40 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: being with us. This is another thing I've learned I 41 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: want you to analyze. We learn that, according to sources, 42 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: two pois have been named and they are not Buster Murdoch. 43 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: Now is there going to be a murdag connection? Maybe, 44 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: but tangentially, and I'll get to that. These two individuals 45 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: were teams themselves at the time, lived near Mozelle, the 46 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: hunting lodge, it's not far from Mozelle, about eight to 47 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: eleven minutes on the road where Steven Smith's body was found, 48 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: which trigger all sorts of speculation they also lived in 49 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: there there. Now, this is what we're learning del Carson. 50 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: According to sources, these two pois teams themselves at the time, 51 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: were out late at night and hit Steven Smith, then 52 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: tried to cover it up. 53 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 2: What do you make of what we're learning right now? 54 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 1: And how difficult is it to get an order of 55 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:35,679 Speaker 1: exhamation and then actually autopsy an already embalmed body. 56 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 3: Well, of course, what we're looking for here is injuries 57 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 3: consistent with a hit and run vehicular homicide. That's what 58 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 3: we're looking for because that's where everything was initially focused. 59 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 3: And you're looking for things that will be patently evident 60 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 3: in the exit autopsy. You're looking for spiral fractures below 61 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 3: the knee. You're looking for places most individuals who are 62 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 3: walking in the roadway and are struck by a vehicle, 63 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 3: and I've handled a number of these cases as a 64 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 3: cop in Miami, you get fractures below the legs. In 65 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 3: addition to that, below the knee rather, and in addition 66 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 3: to that, you're gonna have what I call a dirt dump. Now, 67 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 3: this is rural South Carolina, and a dirt dump is 68 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 3: where your car strikes something and when it does, all 69 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 3: the material that is up in the wheel wells and 70 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 3: on the frame dropped onto the ground. So typically at 71 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 3: the strike point, you're gonna find dirt. If you don't 72 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 3: find anything else, No, what do you. 73 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 2: Mean dirt on a paved road. 74 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 3: Sure, sure, you're gonna find clumps of mud that have 75 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 3: become dislodged from the wheel wells. Remember this is the 76 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 3: rural South. 77 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 2: On a paved road. 78 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 3: That's all right, You're gonna find clumps at the strike point. Now, 79 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 3: if you don't find clumps of dirt and debris at 80 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:14,359 Speaker 3: the strike point where the bumper of the truck or 81 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 3: car has hit, the individual fractured below the knee, and 82 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 3: the result is that strike impacts the car. When a 83 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 3: truck when it impacts it, you have a massive amount 84 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 3: of dirt that come out of the car. If you 85 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 3: hit the brakes real hard on your car, you're gonna 86 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 3: cause a say, when you drive down the road and 87 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 3: you hit a bump in the road, and you see 88 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,239 Speaker 3: all the oil that's right there. That's from the car 89 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 3: hitting that bump. Gravity pulling the oil that's around the 90 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 3: engine or other parts onto the ground. So you see 91 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 3: those spots. That's what I'm talking about. 92 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: I'm letting all this think in Look, I'm a JDA, 93 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: I'm not an auto mechanic, but I hear what you're saying, 94 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: and it makes perfect sense to me. 95 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 2: Keep going. I want to hear every word. 96 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 3: So you find these spiral fractures, particularly where the individual 97 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 3: is walking and the direction of travel, and so if 98 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 3: he's facing a car, which typically. 99 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 2: Wow down for Pete's sake, man, what. 100 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 3: If you're facing a car and you're walking, you're walking 101 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 3: down the road you run out of gas, which, by 102 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 3: the way, brings up another interesting point. You run out 103 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 3: of gas, Why would you take the gas calf off 104 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 3: your tank and look into it? 105 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, kind of yes, I mean, I want to 106 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: tell you something else I learned. 107 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 2: I can't wait for you to hear this. So I've 108 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 2: been doing a little bit of digging. 109 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: And apparently Steven Smith he had a one night stand. 110 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 2: Before the death, but not in the hours leading up 111 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 2: to the death. He also had a. 112 00:07:52,240 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: Boyfriend, and the boyfriend says that he contacted Stephen Smith 113 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: as late as three point thirty seven a m And 114 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: that was less. 115 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 2: Than a half an hour before the body is found. 116 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: And he also says that Stephen Smith believed someone was 117 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: following him. 118 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 3: Well, I look back in the seventies in Miami, when 119 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 3: I was a cop down there, rolling individuals, rolling as 120 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 3: in injuring, drunks, and gage was the order of the day. 121 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 2: I mean that this says in the seventies, man, I know. 122 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 3: My point is that behavior still exists today. 123 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: It's really hard for me to embrace that because who 124 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 1: cares if you're gay or not? 125 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 2: Gay? 126 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: Is oh I can do to keep our car in 127 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: the middle of the road, in other words, to keep 128 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: my family, to keep the children in school, to keep 129 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: up with their assignments, to d the Scouts, This the work, 130 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: the blah, the this. I can't worry about what somebody 131 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: else is doing. I don't have the energy. 132 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 2: I can't. 133 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: It's very hard for me to take in gay hatred. 134 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 1: But I will tell you this. I don't know if 135 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: I've told you this. Dell Carson, one of the first 136 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: cases I worked trying to hold it on appeal, which 137 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: we did, by the way, was one of the most 138 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 1: vicious gay people. 139 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 3: What holding on appeal means. 140 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: Holding the appeal. That means thank you, you're right. You 141 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: get a convictionate trial. Then, like we see happening in 142 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: Murdog right now, the defendant has nothing to do all 143 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: day but sit in jail and think, Wow. 144 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 2: How can I get this thing reversed? On appeal? They 145 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 2: go to jail house lawyers. Murdog is a lawyer. He's 146 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 2: gonna live in the law library. 147 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: He's gonna scheme and gnash his teeth and switch his 148 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: tail twenty four seven three sixty five trying. 149 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 2: To come up with an appealable ground. So you know 150 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:04,839 Speaker 2: you're in for it. 151 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: When you get a homicide conviction, a murder conviction, they 152 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,959 Speaker 1: will say anything, including turning on their own defense lawyers 153 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: who probably did a pretty good job and claiming they're ineffective, 154 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: that always happens on appeal, and the defense lawyer typically 155 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: goes along with it, goes, yeah, I'm ineffective. I was 156 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: awful at trial to try to help the client. Of course, 157 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 1: the appellate courts know this or they're like, yeah, right, 158 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: you're infective. Long story short again, in that case, once 159 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: you get the conviction, you got to hold it. You 160 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: got to hold it on appeal. That's what that means. 161 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: And you're right, I did need to explain that. You've 162 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: got to make sure that all the myriad of counts 163 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: the defense puts up as to why the case should 164 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: be reversed, all the imaginary slights and unconstitutional practices in court. 165 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: And then then then this juror fell asleep and the 166 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: judge did this, and they. 167 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 2: Go on and on. 168 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: You got to hold it, and you gotta be ready 169 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: to get questions by the appellate court. And this was 170 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: to the Georgia Supreme Court that I argued this case. 171 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: And I don't know if it's like this in your jurisdiction, 172 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: but here at the lectern, you've got the whole court 173 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: in front of you. They're all looking at you to 174 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: do your argument. There is a. 175 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 2: Green light, a yellow light and a red light on 176 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 2: the lec turn. 177 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: Green means go, yellow means you're running out of time. 178 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: Red means if you don't sit down right now, we'll 179 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: have the bell of remove you and you'll be kicked 180 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: out of the court room. 181 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:38,319 Speaker 2: Yes, just like a traffic light. 182 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:46,199 Speaker 1: So this case was about a series of young black 183 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 1: males that were raped, anally raped and then shot in 184 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: the head, almost always with thirty eight caliber in the 185 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: back of the head, a little bit to the right side, which. 186 00:11:58,000 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 2: Means the right handed killer. 187 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: Anyway, we got the guy convicted, the guy and I 188 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: was trying to hold it on appeal. 189 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 2: So yes, I have dealt with. 190 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: Horrible hatred toward gay men. And I had more after that, 191 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: but that was the first one. It's really hard for 192 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: me to imagine this hatred, but it exists. So you 193 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,559 Speaker 1: got to factor that in as well. Del Carson about 194 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:30,079 Speaker 1: Steven Smith. 195 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 3: Was killed, Well, there's more. If you go down a 196 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 3: rural highway, you'll see you and rural. 197 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 2: It's always rural with you. What do you have a 198 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 2: think about? 199 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 3: Okay, our country. You ride down a country road, you're 200 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 3: gonna see mailboxes on the sides of the roads, and 201 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 3: some of them will be destroyed. You know how that happens. 202 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 2: I think you're about to sell me. 203 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 3: Okay, you ride down the road in your truck and 204 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 3: you have a baseball bat, which these boys were in 205 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 3: baseball teams, right, and you reach out of the into 206 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 3: the passenger does typically and strikes the mailbox to great amazement. 207 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 3: The thing gets destroyed, and the boy's cheer. 208 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 2: All right. 209 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: So yeah, obviously they don't have enough to do well. 210 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 3: Obviously they're destructive and they like to do those kinds 211 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 3: of things. So you'll see big concrete mailboxes which cannot 212 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 3: be destroyed in that fashion. The point is, we're gonna 213 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 3: see whether that blunt force trauma came from a car 214 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:37,199 Speaker 3: where it fractured, caused abrasions to the skin and things 215 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 3: in primary and secondary exploit. 216 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 2: I got, I got some more INFI for you. 217 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: Will you continue to tell me about assaulting mailboxes? All right? 218 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 3: Right? So so so if those other factors don't exist 219 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 3: in the post mortem, and there aren't fractured legs, then 220 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 3: what about riding down the road seeing the guy you 221 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 3: come around back, you don't like him, and you take 222 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 3: one of those baths and you hit him with it. 223 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:07,559 Speaker 3: Ended of court. 224 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. 225 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: According to witness Kinsey quote, memories fade, people leave this earth. 226 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: Those were missed opportunities. You don't ever get that back. 227 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: And he's right about that. The investigation into Stephen Smith's 228 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: death has been reopened, and this was days after Maggie 229 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: and Paul Murdoch were shot dead there in Collington County 230 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: at the family's hunting lodge Mozelle. Now, at that time, 231 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: SLID South Carolina Law Enforcement Division said an uncovered info 232 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: related to Stephen's death while investigating the murders of Maggie 233 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: and Paul Murdoch, but they never really did provide any details. 234 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: What do we know about Steven's death? 235 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 2: Now? 236 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: I know the two names of the pois persons of interest, 237 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: but I'm gonna call him number one and number two, Okay, 238 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: number one and number two. I'm gonna let number one 239 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: be the non driver and number two be the driver. 240 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 2: Number two is the driver. Okay, So this is what 241 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 2: we understand. 242 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: One of the two came over to the tipster, an 243 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: anonymous tipster who. 244 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 2: I think I may know who it is. But anyway, 245 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 2: the anonymous tipster. 246 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: Says one of the two pois persons of interests come 247 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: over to tipster's house and told tipster that Number two 248 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: the driver was drunk and hit something that he went 249 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: back the next day to see what he had hit, 250 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: which is a live course, see what he hit. The 251 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: next day, saw a lot of police out there. Then 252 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: he learned by media that someone had been killed and 253 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: that's why police were there. The tipster said, Person one, 254 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: not the driver, was visibly distraught, crying, and when he 255 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: got through telling a story, walked outside of the house 256 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: and threw up. 257 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 2: Two. The driver. 258 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: May have tried to cover up evidence, having his mirror 259 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: fixed on his vehicle, patched up one of the mirrors 260 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: on his truck. 261 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 2: There were rumors and. 262 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: There is somewhat of a murdad connection, only allegedly that 263 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: Randy Murdog got another witness to call cops and ride out. 264 00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 2: Number two the driver. 265 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: Now my question to you is all this happened back 266 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen. You've got a timpster telling an agent 267 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: POI one came over rated out POI two, person of 268 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 1: manches two. POI one was so upset about it he 269 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: threw up just describing what happened. What in the hay 270 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: has been going on since twenty and fifteen. 271 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 3: Deal Carson, Well, look, that's fairly straightforward, at least for me. 272 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 3: If only a truck mirror, one of those extended mirrors 273 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 3: on the side of your truck hit somebody, if that happened, 274 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 3: there might not be leg fractures. Okay, And that's a 275 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 3: really good explanation for why was actually struck with a bat. 276 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 1: I got something else for you before I forget it, 277 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: because you know up here my head, I'll go to 278 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 1: the next thing. I gotta tell you one more thing. 279 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 1: Throw this into your analysis, del Carson. How do I 280 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 1: say this? 281 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 2: Okay? Have you ever seen aristocats? Wait? No, wait? Or 282 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 2: is it one hundred and one dalmatians? Okay? 283 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: There are two hound dogs, Sidney, could you please look 284 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: this up. There are two hound dogs and one is Napoleon, 285 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 1: and he's in charge. 286 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 2: Much like Barney five. And in the distance he hears 287 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 2: a car. 288 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: Wait, yes, see, here's a car and it's Egbert the Butler. Oh, 289 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 1: so that means it's aristocrat aristocats and Egbert the Butler 290 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:54,120 Speaker 1: is riding a motorcycle with sidecar and at a distance 291 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: Napoleon was it? 292 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 2: The dog's named Napoleon? Okay, who's the other dog? I 293 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 2: just want to know out of curiosity. Please look it up. 294 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: Anyway, Wait a minute, I'm going somewhere with this. 295 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 2: Wait, Napoleon the host's episode ear is straight up. He goes, 296 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 2: uh huh, it's a motorcycle. 297 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: It's got a sidecar, blah blah, And he can hear 298 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: what the vehicle is a mile away. 299 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 2: And identify it. 300 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: Do you know, Like, for instance, my husband is always 301 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: late to supper and the three of us are sitting there, 302 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:30,400 Speaker 1: and what we do is we lay our heads down 303 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 1: on the. 304 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 2: Table and act like we're asleep, and we're all going. 305 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: But this is how we know when to start fake snoring, 306 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 1: because we can tell the way he. 307 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 2: Opens the door that it's him. 308 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,479 Speaker 1: We can hear his car, we can recognize his vehicle, 309 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: and we know how he opens the door unlike anybody else, 310 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: and then we immediately fake sleep. 311 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 2: What I'm saying is there's a witness in this case. 312 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: It's the then boyfriend who is is communicating back and 313 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 1: forth with Steven Smith that night, less than half an 314 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 1: hour before Smith is killed, and he says he hears 315 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 1: quote big mud tires. 316 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 2: Now if I hear one tire versus another tire. 317 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 1: I don't know that I could tell a difference, but 318 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 1: it can be done, Dale Carson. 319 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 3: It can be done absolutely. And the rural South, well, that. 320 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 2: Was the other dog's name. Okay, go ahead. 321 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 3: So in my area of the city in Florida, you 322 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 3: don't hear off the road tires very much, but in 323 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 3: the country areas you do, And certainly you could know 324 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 3: a muffler sound from a car. You can certainly hear 325 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 3: from the tires, and it makes a tremendous racket. So 326 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 3: they're elevated cars trucks rather so if they're elevated, well, 327 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 3: the mirror on a car wouldn't go to hit somebody 328 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 3: in the back of the head or the front of 329 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 3: the head, which is where the strike was on Smith. 330 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 3: So the entire matter seems to be contrived. It's contrived. 331 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 3: So if you had to make an explanation for somebody 332 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 3: who was actually struck with a bat by ne'er do 333 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 3: wells riding around in a car and finding a gay 334 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 3: guy walking alone in the middle. 335 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 2: Of a road, what are you so hell bent on 336 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 2: them using a bat? I mean, I've just told you that. 337 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 1: According to this tipster in granted that's not a completely 338 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: credible source, but it's a tipster who's got facts that 339 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 1: suggests Steven Smith was hit by a truck by the 340 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: side mirror, which then had to be fixed. 341 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 2: I ate taped up. What is it with you and 342 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:52,959 Speaker 2: the bat? 343 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 3: I'm what I'm suggesting to you is there's a difference. 344 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: It's for me to just walking down the cricket path 345 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,360 Speaker 1: of Dale Carsonland Well and it may figure out you've 346 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: hit now so far, you've hit a couple of mailboxes 347 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: with a bat. Now you got back to the seventies 348 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: with people here, gay people with a bat? 349 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 2: Can we deal with the facts as we know them 350 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 2: in this. 351 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 3: Case, well as you may believe them to be. But 352 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 3: if a mirror strikes an individual, one of those mirror 353 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 3: is going to leave glass at the strike point, and 354 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,880 Speaker 3: we didn't find any glass. You're right saying, you're right 355 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 3: that the entire process is contrived by a family in 356 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:39,360 Speaker 3: charge of what really happened. And when you contrive something, 357 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 3: you've got to make a reason for it, and that 358 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,959 Speaker 3: reason's got to be consistent with the apparent facts. So 359 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 3: you have one which is an it run, It's an accident. 360 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 3: It's horrible it happens with people who are drinking and driving, 361 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 3: and it's wrong. But another thing's all together there. If 362 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 3: there's a relationship that somebody doesn't want revealed, and you 363 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 3: have an opportunity to get rid of that problem, and 364 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 3: you do so as consistent with the behaviors of certain 365 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 3: well known families in that area, youve got to contrive it. 366 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 3: So the first thing you want to do is call 367 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 3: victim's mother and say, look, I'll represent you for free, 368 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 3: not for fee, but for free. Why would they do that? 369 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: Well, hold on just a moment, I'm going to go 370 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: into your conspiracy theory riddled mind for just one moment. 371 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: Hold on, wait a minute, I'm going with you on this. 372 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 1: Just a moment, Dale Carson, let me get my thought, 373 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: let me immorseal my thoughts. Because according to the father 374 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 1: a POI person of interest number one, the stepfather a 375 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 1: person of interest number one, not the driver Number one, 376 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: tells stepfather what happened that number two hit Steven Smith 377 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: and killed him. The father, the stepfather of number one, 378 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 1: says that Randy Murdog got him the stepfather to tell 379 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: the story to cops. What is Randy Murdock doing up 380 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: in the middle of this. If in fact this is true, 381 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: we don't know it's true. I mean, and number two, 382 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:23,880 Speaker 1: the driver apparently has a history of d y, domestic violence, 383 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 1: a potpourri of offenses. 384 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 2: He just he just smells. 385 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 1: You know, it's got a hole, as I said, trash 386 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: back full of offenses, none of them rising to a 387 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 1: felony that I know of. But he's just a he's 388 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: just a cesspool brewing. 389 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 2: With all his offenses in that boom. Now we've got this. 390 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 1: So how does Randy Murdog get injected into this? 391 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:03,959 Speaker 3: Well, you know, in too, individuals who don't want the 392 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:08,360 Speaker 3: truth of a matter known often do things to prevent 393 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 3: that truth from being revealed. I mean, that's just human nature. 394 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,919 Speaker 1: Wait, are you one of those people that think LBJ 395 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: murder JFK gay Oh okay, thank goodness, you're not into 396 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 1: that one. But you're definitely seeing a conspiracy here, and 397 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: you're roping in the Murdogs that they are pointing to 398 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: number one and number two. 399 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 2: But it's really them, is that what you're saying? 400 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 3: Well, it's somebody else. Whether it is an actual Murdog 401 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 3: is another matter altogether, but clearly the exhumation is going 402 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 3: to provide some evidence as to what happened. And I've 403 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 3: seen a number of hit and run traffic fatalities and 404 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,199 Speaker 3: I have never seen somebody hit by just the mirror. 405 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 3: I mean, that's. 406 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 2: Unusual crime stories. 407 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: With Nancy Grace, apparently we're going to find out from 408 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: the independent autopsy. 409 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 2: Steven Smith had bruising to one side of his body, 410 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 2: but the. 411 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 1: Fatal the cause of the death cod was a blood 412 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: of the head of some sort. 413 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 3: Well it was originally thought it was a gunshot, that's right, 414 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 3: and so you've got to look at the photographs. You 415 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 3: got to look at the actual fracture. You know, there's 416 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 3: a difference between a high speed fracture and a low 417 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 3: speed fracture. It's called brissins and it's that is a 418 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 3: term that's used with the military to describe the ability 419 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 3: of aid an explosive to move things. And they're different speed. 420 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 3: So if the buck was going five miles an hour 421 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 3: versus fifty miles an hour, or a bat was traveling 422 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 3: at sixty miles an hour, there's a difference, and you 423 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 3: can tell whether the back of a mirror hit his 424 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 3: forehead or whether it was something else. I mean, I 425 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 3: just seen him walking down the road. A truck passes him, 426 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 3: and this is information that's available in some of the 427 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,640 Speaker 3: information I've read in the media. Somebody sees him, they 428 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 3: dislike him, They turned the truck around. He thinks it's 429 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 3: somebody that knows him is going to rescue him from 430 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 3: his car who's out of gas. They come by quickly 431 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,640 Speaker 3: and theyventionally injure him. 432 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: As we all know, there was a huge battle to 433 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: exhume Steven Smith's body, and it was a second autopsy 434 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: was performed. Our friend, pathologist, doctor Michelle Dupree, oversaw that 435 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:58,439 Speaker 1: second autopsy. She says Smith's injury, that horrific blood of 436 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: the skull is considered with being struck by an object 437 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 1: attached to a vehicle traveling at a high rate of speed, 438 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 1: something like one of those wide side mirrors, say, on 439 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: the side of a truck. She says, and I quote scientifically, 440 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: medically and forensically, we know what happened, but we don't 441 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: know who did it. A lot of speculation had circulated 442 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 1: around Stephen Smith's death, trying to tie it to members 443 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: of the Murdoch family. That never happened. I personally never 444 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: saw evidence connecting Stephen Smith's death to anybody in the 445 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: Murdoch family. Authorities now offering a fifty thousand dollar reward 446 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: for information leading to the arrest and conviction. In the 447 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: case of Stephen Smith's death. A nineteen year old teen 448 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: simply walking by the side of the road, minding his 449 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: own business as just as un falls, Patsy Grace signing 450 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: off goodbye friend.