Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast. Hi, Hi, guys,
Speaker 1: it's the week.
Speaker 2: Good morning, Jana, Good morning. That would be my current mood.
Speaker 2: Good morning Jana and Catherine.
Speaker 3: Guys.
Speaker 2: What a blessed day today is? It's book week. It
Speaker 2: is book week, and I'm really proud of you.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 2: I got teared up. Did you hear it on the Instagram?
Speaker 2: I tried to swallow my tears fast, friend, I did.
Speaker 3: Why did you get teared?
Speaker 2: Probably cry right now?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 2: Episode of wind Down. Yeah, I'm just really proud of you.
Speaker 3: Same.
Speaker 4: Kat had said something to me we were flying back
Speaker 4: from New York last night, and I sometimes forget because
Speaker 4: I've we've all lived it.
Speaker 3: But I guess.
Speaker 4: I in my mind it might have not been as
Speaker 4: heavy and she was ever she was. I'll let you
Speaker 4: say what you said to me on the plane about
Speaker 4: how every time you.
Speaker 1: Read it, every time I read anything about it, every
Speaker 1: time you talk about it, it makes me cry. And
Speaker 1: I'm not I mean, I am a crier, but I
Speaker 1: like to avoid my feelings. You know, there is something
Speaker 1: about this topic that just gets me every single time.
Speaker 1: I was crying in the car on the way here.
Speaker 2: She was and I called her. She called me and
Speaker 2: I was like, I was just crying and listening to.
Speaker 1: Worship music too, because I go I mean, anyway, I
Speaker 1: don't want to go straight into I mean, it's book week.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited for you, but yeah, it's a lot,
Speaker 1: it's emotional.
Speaker 4: Well you almost I think I forget I didn't go
Speaker 4: through all of this alone, and you guys carried a
Speaker 4: lot of this with me. You were in the book
Speaker 4: and I can't remember which chapter it was, but we
Speaker 4: were under a table together, you and me, KB and
Speaker 4: then Catherine obviously, I mean, you are a ginormous part
Speaker 4: of the book. And there's so many things that we'd
Speaker 4: talk about from the very beginning too, and there's so
Speaker 4: many things too that you know, are even not in there,
Speaker 4: that we've been through with everything, and so for I
Speaker 4: almost forget how much weight you guys have also carried
Speaker 4: through the last seven years of this next chapter.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's about to sixty two hundred and
Speaker 2: sixty pounds is what we were carrying. Does that feel accurate?
Speaker 2: I'm not sure exact weight class, but.
Speaker 1: I think that, at least speaking for myself, I don't
Speaker 1: even think I realize until those moments how much weight
Speaker 1: I was carrying in that time.
Speaker 2: You carried double I think, right, it's.
Speaker 1: Just like in the moment, it's just like, what do
Speaker 1: we need to do. Let's take care of things, let's
Speaker 1: you know, da da da. It's not until I hear
Speaker 1: y'all talk about it and I go back there, or
Speaker 1: I read about it and I think about it and
Speaker 1: I'm so emotional. I don't realize how much weight it
Speaker 1: actually was on me as well.
Speaker 4: What do you think as a friend was the hardest
Speaker 4: piece for you going through that journey with me those
Speaker 4: many years.
Speaker 1: The hardest part was just seeing you hurt. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's nobody wants to see anybody hurt, but then to
Speaker 1: have the person that's so closest to you hurt over
Speaker 1: and over and over again. But also in part not
Speaker 1: doing it to yourself, but allowing it, and that's I
Speaker 1: think was the hardest piece, because it's like you, I
Speaker 1: understand that you can't see it when you're in the
Speaker 1: middle of it. I totally understand that, but that's what's
Speaker 1: so frustrating on this point, this part, you know, it
Speaker 1: is like you can't see it, but you're so hurt,
Speaker 1: and you keep getting hurt, and you're allowing yourself to
Speaker 1: get hurt. But it's like a it's a it's a
Speaker 1: frustrating and hard feeling because you know, I mean, as
Speaker 1: Amy's told me before, like they have to see it
Speaker 1: for themselves, and you know that. I know that in
Speaker 1: that moment, but I'm like just praying, like what at
Speaker 1: what point? At what point is she going to see
Speaker 1: it for herself? At what point is the hurt not
Speaker 1: going to be worth it? It was interesting to me.
Speaker 2: I felt like I always was fighting, as long as
Speaker 2: you were fighting, and then there was the time, like
Speaker 2: the straw that broke the camel's back for me was
Speaker 2: not as catastrophic and big as I thought it would be.
Speaker 3: I thought it would be like a big.
Speaker 2: Like some giant relationship or some huge, you know, something
Speaker 2: outside of marriage. And I was like, that's it. And
Speaker 2: I remember exactly where I was when you sent it.
Speaker 2: I remember exactly how I typed it in, just sent
Speaker 2: it from my soul, and I I think it's just
Speaker 2: difficult because we were friends with him too, and so
Speaker 2: it was like, stop messing with this, like stop messing
Speaker 2: with all of us, stop hurting our friend, but then
Speaker 2: also like we have fun game nights and we're all
Speaker 2: we all have inside jokes, like Kat and I have
Speaker 2: both been on the road with you at separate times,
Speaker 2: like I did all of Texas with you and Mike,
Speaker 2: you know, like I'm like, but this is too tall, Mike,
Speaker 2: Like get it together, dude, you have such a good life. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I always well, especially layered for you, Cat, because
Speaker 2: you have the business side to carry too, Like you
Speaker 2: defend her as a friend, but then you also defend
Speaker 2: her as a client. And so that's why to me
Speaker 2: it always is perceived as double heavy. Not that you
Speaker 2: have ever framed it that way, but in my brain,
Speaker 2: I'd always literally had said like, oh, I wouldn't want
Speaker 2: to be Cat.
Speaker 1: Well, it's just a hard wanting to be a friend,
Speaker 1: but also thinking like but how do we protect her?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, you got to think about that. How
Speaker 1: do we protect finances? How do we protect you know?
Speaker 1: You have to go into like a business mode and
Speaker 1: a and it's hard and I can remember very specifically
Speaker 1: in that time, and I hope you heard it this way.
Speaker 1: I tried really hard. You know, Okay, this is friend
Speaker 1: Kat talking, this is business Cat talking now because it
Speaker 1: seems so callous. I mean, it just seems so and
Speaker 1: I understand I am a tough love type person anyways,
Speaker 1: So then that layered with that having to go okay,
Speaker 1: but we have to think about this too. It seemed
Speaker 1: hard and it was hard for me, and it was hard.
Speaker 1: It made me feel, you know, like I was just
Speaker 1: too tough sometimes. And you know, at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, I was probably the one person that from
Speaker 1: the beginning said leave. I understand that I'll never forget
Speaker 1: when you called and say okay, k Beef actually said
Speaker 1: it's time, you know, because I had just was the
Speaker 1: only one that kind of from the beginning whether I
Speaker 1: should have or I shouldn't have. You know, I go
Speaker 1: back and forth on whether I should have even stated that,
Speaker 1: but I kind of was the one, you know that
Speaker 1: just from the beginning was like enough is enough?
Speaker 4: Is that where you think he, y'alls, why you think
Speaker 4: he throughout the years didn't like you? Probably that you
Speaker 4: guys had that tension.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, And it's it's so hard because hearing
Speaker 1: that has really it's really it's really been hard, you know,
Speaker 1: hearing you say the other day you're not sure if
Speaker 1: he liked me the whole time. That was hard to
Speaker 1: hear because, like you said, like I considered him a
Speaker 1: friend and I'm going to cry because I did. I
Speaker 1: loved him too, and her husbands loved him. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: he hates us now, you know, And that's not easy
Speaker 1: and somewhat not fair. You know, I don't feel like
Speaker 1: that's fair.
Speaker 2: Because we also defended him on the backside so many.
Speaker 1: Yeah, every time you said I'm not leaving, I'm forgiving him,
Speaker 1: I chose to. I don't know if I forgave him,
Speaker 1: but I chose to move on. Sure, I chose to
Speaker 1: get along with him. I chose for him to still
Speaker 1: be my friend. Did I believe everything he was saying? No,
Speaker 1: I didn't. But I made a conscious choice to if
Speaker 1: you're going to stay in this, I'm going to be
Speaker 1: in this. And I think that's just it is.
Speaker 5: Man.
Speaker 1: It's just hard to really hear that. I guess he
Speaker 1: didn't feel the same way. Well, I don't know.
Speaker 4: I was just right, and you're probably right. There was
Speaker 4: always that when there was a fight, it would be like, well,
Speaker 4: Catherine's just your yes person or this or whatever, and.
Speaker 1: Well, and what's interesting to that to me is. I
Speaker 1: was thinking about this the other night. I feel like
Speaker 1: if I was your yes person, I would have said, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: you're right, you can make this work. I was the opposite,
Speaker 1: and so in that moment, I truly and I wasn't
Speaker 1: necessarily the opposite, you know. I wasn't always just like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, you know him or you know or whatever,
Speaker 1: but it was a y'all can't keep doing this to yourselves.
Speaker 1: You can't keep living this way. So yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I know that he thought that about me, that I
Speaker 1: was your yes person. To me, I just felt like that,
Speaker 1: you know, for the longest time, truly, you just wanted
Speaker 1: to make it work. You really wanted people to tell
Speaker 1: you to make it work. In my mind, I think
Speaker 1: you did well.
Speaker 2: I also think you thought it could like you have
Speaker 2: two kids with someone. This isn't like a totally.
Speaker 4: Breakup, right, And when you believe so that when someone
Speaker 4: says I'll know, it's like you want to believe. Of
Speaker 4: course you do also the father of your children, right,
Speaker 4: And so I think that that kept me staying there
Speaker 4: because it's it's like, well, what if he did what
Speaker 4: if he did change? Then then what you know? And
Speaker 4: I think what I kind of realized through the book
Speaker 4: and when you guys read it too, is even if
Speaker 4: and I even said in there, like even if there
Speaker 4: wasn't some monumental thing, there were so many we were
Speaker 4: not each other's person and it wasn't just because of
Speaker 4: the infidelity. And that's something that I realized, Like he
Speaker 4: didn't meet the needs that I really truly love now
Speaker 4: and received from Alan and everything else.
Speaker 2: So it's he didn't give you a chance to get
Speaker 2: to know yourself well either. But that's not just on
Speaker 2: him though, No, I know, you know, but like that
Speaker 2: relationship never gave you the chance. Well, no, And that's
Speaker 2: where it always felt very unfair. It's like I didn't
Speaker 2: get to be the wife that I would have loved
Speaker 2: to have been. Having said that, I think it's also
Speaker 2: where I go to We just maybe weren't as compatible
Speaker 2: and we moved quick obviously, And.
Speaker 3: I don't know anything about that life.
Speaker 1: It was just toxic kind of from the beginning. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well can who can be their best selves if they're
Speaker 1: in a toxic relationship? Well, I remember saying that to you.
Speaker 2: Do you remember the day that I told you I
Speaker 2: was like, I really think you all are going to
Speaker 2: end up being really good friends, Like I would watch
Speaker 2: you interact so well as friends. But there was the
Speaker 2: things that really I felt like mattered on the marriage front,
Speaker 2: Like the non negotiables were just never there. It was
Speaker 2: like every time you could gain a little bit of
Speaker 2: trust back, like a little bit of like the roadback,
Speaker 2: it just got scooped out again. And it was like,
Speaker 2: there's just at some point it's not sustainable, or it
Speaker 2: becomes sustainable, but both people have to become completely unhealthy
Speaker 2: to work inside of it. And I was watching you go,
Speaker 2: I don't want to become unhealthy. I was watching him
Speaker 2: continue to repeat, and then I felt, and this is interesting,
Speaker 2: This is the compassion side I have for him, is
Speaker 2: I felt like he was doing everything he could do
Speaker 2: to play the character he needed to play, but he
Speaker 2: wasn't taking the time to actually learn himself. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: So then it was like he was giving the right answers,
Speaker 2: or he was saying the right things, or he was
Speaker 2: doing the check ins, but like the two versions of
Speaker 2: him could never merge and like have a safe place
Speaker 2: to land even in his own body.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think, but you he'd agree with that piece too,
Speaker 4: and same, you know, I'm like, I trust you, I
Speaker 4: didn't trust you. I'm saying I trust you, I don't
Speaker 4: trust you. So it's it's same. And I think with
Speaker 4: this book too, I will say what I'm most excited
Speaker 4: about is the how it ended up, because again, when
Speaker 4: I started the book, I was very angry, I was
Speaker 4: very bitter, and there was a lot of things in
Speaker 4: there that through the work with Amy and just you know,
Speaker 4: healing and growing and learning, I took a lot of
Speaker 4: stuff out because I'm like, it doesn't it's not about him,
Speaker 4: And that's my most excited piece of it, but also
Speaker 4: it's my most fearful piece of this week in book released,
Speaker 4: because I don't want anyone to make this.
Speaker 3: Book about them.
Speaker 4: There could be someone in this book that makes it
Speaker 4: about them and we'll say things or and it's like,
Speaker 4: this book has actually nothing to do about you or
Speaker 4: any of my exes. It's all about the stuff that like,
Speaker 4: I've looked in the mirror and I'm doing things differently
Speaker 4: and I'm learning and I'm growing and I'm trying, you know,
Speaker 4: to do better at this. So that's like my excitement,
Speaker 4: but also my like fear too that someone's gonna try
Speaker 4: and take it like I'm talking bad about them. I'm like,
Speaker 4: it has nothing to do about you. Well, these are
Speaker 4: my stories, my experiences, and it has nothing to do
Speaker 4: with it. You might have contributed to my story, but
Speaker 4: this book is not about you. It's about how I
Speaker 4: had to look in the mirror and face the fact
Speaker 4: that I was repeating really toxic patterns over and over
Speaker 4: and over again, and that when people live an offense, though,
Speaker 4: they're going to be offended no matter how you word it.
Speaker 4: If you're a person that lives an offence, you will
Speaker 4: take everything personal. And so that is more about them
Speaker 4: than about you.
Speaker 3: For sure.
Speaker 1: Is there anything specific you can think about in this
Speaker 1: book that you're just nervous for it to be out there,
Speaker 1: Whether it's a behavior of yours that you're putting out
Speaker 1: there or something that has happened that you know you
Speaker 1: haven't talked about, or is there just anything that you're
Speaker 1: just you're nervous about.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the night that I talked to Miles because it's
Speaker 4: such a touchy subject and I don't and I got
Speaker 4: asked about it in an interview and I forgot to
Speaker 4: even I was going to text to me like did
Speaker 4: that come out? Because it's such a I talk about
Speaker 4: how I pulled the case, my gun case from my drawer.
Speaker 4: I had no intent of committing suicide. It was just
Speaker 4: there and I grabbed it as like it was just
Speaker 4: I was in a cry for help. And I don't
Speaker 4: I can't even explain why I grabbed it or but
Speaker 4: it was just I was I was never going to intend.
Speaker 4: I wasn't suicidal and a nuts and I can't. I mean,
Speaker 4: I for people that are, I'm so sorry and I
Speaker 4: can't even imagine the pain that you go through. I
Speaker 4: think in that moment, that was just a cry for
Speaker 4: help to myself, like because I just wanted the noise
Speaker 4: to stop from the media and the trolls and the
Speaker 4: it just but I would never have taken my life,
Speaker 4: So that's just like for me, I just want that
Speaker 4: to That's just it was just touchy and I didn't
Speaker 4: know if I wanted to put it in there, but
Speaker 4: it was a moment of like I hit.
Speaker 3: My rock bottom and it was.
Speaker 4: Just there and I just screamed at it, and I
Speaker 4: think it was that was my way of like get help.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's powerful.
Speaker 2: Is there anything that you wrote that you maybe wish
Speaker 2: you weren't so honest about because your kids will potentially
Speaker 2: read this later on in life.
Speaker 3: I took it out.
Speaker 4: Good for you, God Creamer, look at you go, because
Speaker 4: it wasn't those things weren't important. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because
Speaker 4: I always do. It's important to my story and I
Speaker 4: keep that in therapy. So there are things that happened
Speaker 4: that they don't ever need to know about. We know
Speaker 4: about it. I know about it, My therapist knows about it.
Speaker 4: Y'all know about it. Nothing else has to be said
Speaker 4: about it. That's right, well done, Bief. But I'm excited
Speaker 4: and I really hope this book helps people, and I just, uh, yeah,
Speaker 4: I'm I'm I'm I'm proud of it. I'm excited about it,
Speaker 4: and I'm very much looking forward to the next.
Speaker 3: Chapter because a big chapter.
Speaker 4: It was just a year, but I've learned again so
Speaker 4: much since and we'll continue to and obviously we'll chat
Speaker 4: about it on wind up, but obviously there Uh. I
Speaker 4: thought it was important to have Mike come on because
Speaker 4: you know, he we have not spoken publicly about this
Speaker 4: or anything, and I just thought it was only fair
Speaker 4: to let him have a space to be able to
Speaker 4: talk and hopefully we can mend some feelings and emotions.
Speaker 4: But let's take a break, y'all, maybe go in the
Speaker 4: other room, let Mike come back on the couch, and
Speaker 4: then then we'll have you guys back on in a
Speaker 4: little bit to chat.
Speaker 3: Sounds good. You guys feel good about that.
Speaker 2: We feel present.
Speaker 4: Okay, right, okay, guys's take a break and we'll get
Speaker 4: Mike Cousin on the podcast. Everyone, welcome Mike Cousin back
Speaker 4: on the podcast.
Speaker 5: What's up?
Speaker 4: How does it feel to be back in the wind down.
Speaker 5: The new and improved studio we got here? It's good.
Speaker 5: It's like riding a bike. I guess. Actually, I will say, yeah.
Speaker 5: I wasn't nervous until like this morning, really yeah, because
Speaker 5: I know we had talked about it. This has been
Speaker 5: a couple of months kind of in the making. I
Speaker 5: was like, Nah, I'm good, I'm good. I'm good. In
Speaker 5: this morning, I was like, I don't know if it's
Speaker 5: the odderall or coffee.
Speaker 2: But.
Speaker 4: Or maybe the emotions, or maybe just the fact of
Speaker 4: being behind a microphone or even saying anything for the
Speaker 4: first time in two and a half years.
Speaker 3: Has it been two and a half years since we've podcasted.
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's see what mon month.
Speaker 1: Are we in?
Speaker 5: It's October twenty three.
Speaker 3: So we've been divorced for April twenty twenty.
Speaker 5: Twenty one, so it's about like ten.
Speaker 1: Emotionally, I think dog ears like it's not.
Speaker 5: People can't see me. But it's not just my beard
Speaker 5: that probably makes me look a little older. It's like
Speaker 5: a few more wrinkles, a few more grays, even less
Speaker 5: hair in my head.
Speaker 3: Is that possible?
Speaker 5: I don't know, we.
Speaker 3: Know what like do what do you think was it?
Speaker 2: Is it?
Speaker 4: Yeah, just kind of like being behind a mic again
Speaker 4: or is that the is that the the the energy
Speaker 4: or the nervousness that maybe came in this morning.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was more about just being behind the mic
Speaker 5: again over whatever we're going to end up talking about.
Speaker 5: Because you know, like you and I have mentioned before
Speaker 5: to ourselves, you know, this was ours for a long
Speaker 5: time and we have a we you know, did a
Speaker 5: lot on this show. So yeah, I was like, man,
Speaker 5: you know, brings me back a little bit. There's a
Speaker 5: big part of me that misses this aspect.
Speaker 4: Yeah, wind down or being behind a doing because I
Speaker 4: will say you were I remember when I started originally
Speaker 4: and then you came on I'm like, we and this
Speaker 4: is something we though it was hard. We enjoyed doing
Speaker 4: the lighter episodes together, and you were really good behind
Speaker 4: the microphone and you're a great interviewer and something where
Speaker 4: it was hard when you did leave because I don't
Speaker 4: have that innate ability or quality to be able to
Speaker 4: interview like you've interviewed guests, like you're just really good
Speaker 4: at asking questions.
Speaker 5: I appreciate that. I mean, I think there's, like any
Speaker 5: team doing something, we just complimented each other. Well, you know,
Speaker 5: we just did in a lot of different ways, especially
Speaker 5: when it came to professionally. So yeah, I think, yeah,
Speaker 5: I appreciate that. There is I miss both the wind
Speaker 5: down because even the tough episodes were a lot of growth,
Speaker 5: a lot of people that got something from it, as
Speaker 5: difficult as it might have been for us personally or emotionally.
Speaker 5: But even since, you know, twenty eighteen when we started
Speaker 5: doing it together, feels like a lifetime ago because now
Speaker 5: everywhere you look, ever, everybody has a podcast. Yeah, right,
Speaker 5: So it's just it's such an oversaturated market where we
Speaker 5: benefited from being towards the forefront of of the timeline
Speaker 5: that is now podcasting especially with TikTok and everything. It's
Speaker 5: just SoundBite after SoundBite after SoundBite. So yeah, I missed. Yeah,
Speaker 5: I missed podcasting in general, and I miss us doing
Speaker 5: it together.
Speaker 3: Can I ask a question about our podcast?
Speaker 5: Sure?
Speaker 4: Before and then I want to bring someone on that
Speaker 4: might make you feel back at home, But I think, well,
Speaker 4: and we got and I don't want to again. I
Speaker 4: want to respect the space that we're in, and I
Speaker 4: love the space that we're in. So I don't want
Speaker 4: to talk too much about the past of certain things,
Speaker 4: but I do. I remember when we got divorced, a
Speaker 4: lot of it was, you know, saying that we wish
Speaker 4: we didn't share as much on this podcast, and so
Speaker 4: I kind of thought, well, if we didn't have this platform,
Speaker 4: then maybe we still would have been married and it
Speaker 4: wouldn't have been our demise. And I fought with that
Speaker 4: for a really long time. And I blame myself for
Speaker 4: having this podcast so much so that I wanted to
Speaker 4: quit the podcast because I felt the blame of I'm
Speaker 4: the reason that you know, this all continued and stuff
Speaker 4: because you felt like you had to be a certain
Speaker 4: version or we kept telling the stories and it was
Speaker 4: in tabloids and so you know, hearing you say you
Speaker 4: missed it, it kind of in a way goes that makes
Speaker 4: me feel a little better because for so long I
Speaker 4: thought I was it was my fault that we got
Speaker 4: to this place because of how open we ended up being.
Speaker 4: And I know we regretted some episodes that we did,
Speaker 4: but that wasn't the total demise.
Speaker 5: Then, I guess, No, I wouldn't say, yeah, I'm sorry
Speaker 5: to hear that you put that so much of that
Speaker 5: on you. Yeah, the idea of the idea of our
Speaker 5: marriage feeling like it became a business. And then yes,
Speaker 5: the narrative of me always being the bad guy or
Speaker 5: always feeling like the bad guy, or the interview or
Speaker 5: talk show or a guest is like it always came
Speaker 5: up and yeah, that is that wears you down. It
Speaker 5: would wear down anybody. But by no means was it
Speaker 5: the demise. Did it help? No, But it's did it
Speaker 5: play a factor. I'm sure in some capacity, you know,
Speaker 5: talking about stuff to nauseum. Yeah, maybe it wouldn't have
Speaker 5: been the healthiest thing to do on such a platform,
Speaker 5: but I don't think I think the outcome is what
Speaker 5: it was supposed to be.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was trying to find that. I had a
Speaker 4: quote in the book where I said, you know, I
Speaker 4: was always cast as the eternal victim and you were
Speaker 4: always cast as the perpetrator, two roles that never truly
Speaker 4: embodied who we were, nor did we ever get to
Speaker 4: overcome those.
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, you're right, And even if it was, no
Speaker 5: matter what we talked about or said, those were going
Speaker 5: to be the narratives written. Yeah, no matter what.
Speaker 4: Well, let's have someone pop on right now that I
Speaker 4: would like to say hello, might have a few questions.
Speaker 5: Man, now I really feel back at home.
Speaker 6: Oh man, it's good to see you, Mike, it really is.
Speaker 6: It's good to see you Mark a long time. And
Speaker 6: you were always very good to me, very nice, very generous,
Speaker 6: always had a really good time back in burback.
Speaker 5: I missed those days, thank you, me too.
Speaker 4: Were fun days. So we had a lot of fun.
Speaker 5: We did. We did have a lot of fun.
Speaker 6: It was it was always weird for me because when
Speaker 6: there were problems and issues and I was like, it
Speaker 6: seems like a nice day to me. Yeah, obviously I'm
Speaker 6: not there with you guys. That's too bad because it
Speaker 6: looks like a comfortable room you're in right now.
Speaker 5: It is. It is Jana's new house or new studio
Speaker 5: in the house.
Speaker 3: It's very well done, it's cozy.
Speaker 6: Have you listened to this show at all since you left?
Speaker 6: And I know that that might be a weird question,
Speaker 6: but especially the episodes that were kind of about you
Speaker 6: or the marriage, or the problems or the you know,
Speaker 6: the post chat on that.
Speaker 5: Nope, not one minute. Now, I will say it was
Speaker 5: actually this morning because I know Jana. She had mentioned
Speaker 5: to me that she teased the idea of me coming
Speaker 5: on to the show a couple months ago. So I
Speaker 5: found that episode and I listened to like the last
Speaker 5: fifteen minutes just to kind of get an idea maybe
Speaker 5: where I'm walking into right just a little bit, so
Speaker 5: I'm not completely blindsided in any kind of way, which
Speaker 5: you know, Jana and I have talked about some things
Speaker 5: before this, But that was it. That's all I've listened to.
Speaker 3: And you've done.
Speaker 4: Sorry, Mark, you've done I think in the beginning, and
Speaker 4: I can understand this. I was trying to find the balance.
Speaker 4: It was really hard, and you were getting people sending
Speaker 4: you so many stories where you're just like, stop sending
Speaker 4: me stories, and to me, you're like, stop talking, and
Speaker 4: I'm like, I don't like, I'm just trying to cope,
Speaker 4: and this is that's the only way I knew how
Speaker 4: right right, And I think that was that caused a
Speaker 4: lot of rift between us.
Speaker 5: It did very much. So so it would, Yeah, it
Speaker 5: would get to the point mark where people would even
Speaker 5: maybe even people that weren't necessarily close in my life,
Speaker 5: just maybe acquaintances or some kind of light of friends
Speaker 5: would send me things or whatever, and I'd be like, look, guys,
Speaker 5: I don't care, so you shouldn't care. I was like us,
Speaker 5: me sitting on this or letting it affect me isn't
Speaker 5: going to help either jam or I or more importantly
Speaker 5: the kids. So I know China better than pretty much
Speaker 5: anyone else to this point. So I know she had
Speaker 5: to go through what she had to go through, and
Speaker 5: I did.
Speaker 6: It my way back to whether or not wind Doown
Speaker 6: was destructive, a destructive element in your relationship? Is there
Speaker 6: any Is there a positive to that in the sense
Speaker 6: that it brought you to together for a week for
Speaker 6: an hour a week and forced you to talk through
Speaker 6: some things that maybe a typical husband and a wife
Speaker 6: don't sit down and talk through for an hour a week,
Speaker 6: some of the fights you were having or whatever it was,
Speaker 6: there any part of that that was helpful because otherwise
Speaker 6: I think husbands and wives tend to kind of hide
Speaker 6: sometimes when things aren't going great from each other.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's exactly it mark where it's almost
Speaker 5: maybe it even accelerated our timeline to not be together.
Speaker 5: Where to your point, if we didn't have that platform
Speaker 5: or the questions arise or whatever, or we probably wouldn't.
Speaker 5: We would just kind of put on a smile and
Speaker 5: feel like everything's okay, or act like everything's okay. Where
Speaker 5: it did force us into some difficult conversations that we
Speaker 5: would later have to go home and discuss and kind
Speaker 5: of unpack and talk about or bring up in couple's
Speaker 5: therapy or whatever it might be. So, yeah, that's why,
Speaker 5: you know, I don't think. I don't look at wind
Speaker 5: down as necessarily the demise. It just accelerated what was
Speaker 5: inevitably going to happen.
Speaker 6: What's your life like these days? I haven't spoken to
Speaker 6: you in years, how's it going? What's your day to day? Yeah?
Speaker 6: I appreciate you asking. My day to day is literally
Speaker 6: work and my children. That's if I'm not with the kids.
Speaker 6: I'm working.
Speaker 5: If i'm i'm with the kids, then I'm just with them.
Speaker 5: So I'm in the I'll talk about it more later,
Speaker 5: but I'm in the health insurance industry as an independent advisor,
Speaker 5: and I'll just say what to anyone else hearing that
Speaker 5: or listening to be like insurance like gross? Like who
Speaker 5: likes to talk about insurance? Right? Like no one really
Speaker 5: cares until you need it. And sure, what I enjoy
Speaker 5: about it is just like anyone in life. And I
Speaker 5: feel like, especially men, we like to have a purpose, right,
Speaker 5: a professional purpose outside of anything else being a husband
Speaker 5: or a father or whatever it may be. And so
Speaker 5: I enjoy being an asset and that's what I am
Speaker 5: to people now. I'm an asset to people who need
Speaker 5: help with something that it's a foreign language to most people.
Speaker 5: Most people don't understand how insurance works. They know that
Speaker 5: they need it, but they don't know the ins and outs.
Speaker 5: So I kind of look at myself as a translator
Speaker 5: where I'm able to take this information translate it for
Speaker 5: you so you better understand it and find you a
Speaker 5: plan or policy that works for you and your family.
Speaker 3: And where can people find you?
Speaker 5: Mike i'll have Janna post something, but I have an
Speaker 5: email and I created an Instagram dun Du purely for this.
Speaker 5: It's not a personal Instagram. It's because I do give
Speaker 5: people my personal cell phone number as clients because I
Speaker 5: come with their policies. I'm there to help them through
Speaker 5: the lifetime of their policy and so I'm not just
Speaker 5: going to give out my personal phone number to anybody,
Speaker 5: but it's you know, if people are interested, especially with
Speaker 5: open enrollment coming up November first to December fifteenth, I'm
Speaker 5: available via email and direct message on Instagram to help
Speaker 5: people navigate that crazy world of insurance.
Speaker 6: Insurance is annoying because you just pay them money over
Speaker 6: and over, over and over and over again. Then when
Speaker 6: you do need them, they try to screw you over. Now,
Speaker 6: I think that's for people's impression of insurance.
Speaker 5: Agreed, And that's what a lot of it is, especially
Speaker 5: government based plans. And I primarily work with private market
Speaker 5: plans which aren't regulated by the government and follow the
Speaker 5: same kind of rules, so you're able to get more
Speaker 5: bang for your buck. And it's actually it's a lot
Speaker 5: easier when you're working with something that's a superior product, right,
Speaker 5: no matter what it is. If you work with something
Speaker 5: that you know is just better, it's a lot easier
Speaker 5: to do for a living right where I don't Some
Speaker 5: people call this insurance sales. I don't really call it sales.
Speaker 5: I call it I'm literally an advisor. If you need help,
Speaker 5: I'll advise you. And sometimes I can't help you, and
Speaker 5: that's okay.
Speaker 4: We'll give them your email and then we'll take a
Speaker 4: break and we'll get back on with some more stuff.
Speaker 5: All right. My email is Michaelcousin dot agent at gmail
Speaker 5: dot com. And the Instagram is just I can't believe
Speaker 5: I'm even saying my Instagram. It's so weird. M underscore costing.
Speaker 3: Can we follow each other?
Speaker 5: You'll have to teach you how to do that.
Speaker 1: I'll teach you.
Speaker 4: All right, We'll take a break and be right back. Okay, Mark,
Speaker 4: you're still.
Speaker 6: With us, still here, ready to go?
Speaker 3: Yeah, any questions.
Speaker 6: I have a lot of questions, and these are some
Speaker 6: questions that you might not want to answer, and that
Speaker 6: is totally I totally respect that. I always have you
Speaker 6: guys have never given me parameters, and I love that
Speaker 6: about you. And I don't remember you ever telling me
Speaker 6: to take a question out of the show.
Speaker 5: But I'll do it.
Speaker 6: Whatever you guys tell me to do, I'll do it.
Speaker 6: First of all, well, you're working in health insurance. You're
Speaker 6: working is there. I'm sure if you had the ability
Speaker 6: to take an erase or to google you would. Do
Speaker 6: you find that that follows you around, like you interviewed
Speaker 6: for a job and they say, oh, you're that Michael Cousin.
Speaker 6: And if you found that notoriety a negative or maybe
Speaker 6: even a positive.
Speaker 5: That's a really great question because that was a huge
Speaker 5: concern when I started to look for work that first
Speaker 5: year twenty twenty one. I just took time for myself.
Speaker 5: I was like, I'm either with the kids or I'm traveling,
Speaker 5: I'm doing stuff. I'm just away. Then I did some
Speaker 5: stuff with a buddy with the startup company, and then
Speaker 5: you know, I've been insurance for a while now, and
Speaker 5: it was there. And admittedly there have been moments where,
Speaker 5: you know, people always think everything's a scam, right, And
Speaker 5: so whether I call somebody who I've is a lead
Speaker 5: that comes across my desk and I get their information,
Speaker 5: I call them and maybe I see that they looked
Speaker 5: at my LinkedIn because they think I'm not real or
Speaker 5: they look at whatever in my fear because then if
Speaker 5: that person's like, oh, we're going in a different direction
Speaker 5: and they don't give me a reason why. Now, this
Speaker 5: has only happened like once one time in the insurance
Speaker 5: where that I can really remember where I was worried.
Speaker 5: I was like, you know what, I bet this guy
Speaker 5: looked at my information. If he looked at my LinkedIn,
Speaker 5: he probably googled me. And I was like, oh, I
Speaker 5: don't want to work with this guy. And so that
Speaker 5: has there have been moments where that's come up where
Speaker 5: my insecurity around it has affected my confidence to a degree.
Speaker 5: Now those moments are few and far between, especially now
Speaker 5: they but it still exists and that's just part of
Speaker 5: my story. Now. If anyone had the balls to even
Speaker 5: to bring it up to me, I to welcome that conversation.
Speaker 4: And I think too not to interject with this question.
Speaker 4: This is something that I really wanted to get across
Speaker 4: too with us is especially with like the book coming out.
Speaker 4: I wanted him to know that they might grab a
Speaker 4: few of the stories, right. But why I also wanted
Speaker 4: him on this week was important because I don't want
Speaker 4: that to be the story. I want how far we've come,
Speaker 4: and I've you know, you've you shared with me a
Speaker 4: story about someone that you were potentially going on a
Speaker 4: few dates with. The very last thing that I would want,
Speaker 4: because I don't have a pretty past and background, and
Speaker 4: I have people that still say, oh, well you a
Speaker 4: couple of years ago, or you were this, or you
Speaker 4: were that. I don't want to ever be defined by
Speaker 4: a headline because I know that I've changed and I've grown,
Speaker 4: and I've I'm a different version of myself than I
Speaker 4: was from my twenties to two years ago, and so
Speaker 4: that's not fair for my ex to have that same
Speaker 4: always headline or that for people to go back to now.
Speaker 4: A lot of times, yes I always have to defend
Speaker 4: the marriages, and I have to defend yes I was controlling,
Speaker 4: and yes I was manipulative and like. But now it's
Speaker 4: not so much defending. It's just my past and I'm
Speaker 4: not that person anymore. And I think that's where he's
Speaker 4: kind of gotten to too, where it's now just your past.
Speaker 4: But it's not an easy thing to have to have
Speaker 4: on a Google search for both of us from our past,
Speaker 4: and that's where I just I wanted to in a
Speaker 4: way because of where we're at now. Protect the fact
Speaker 4: that you don't deserve to be defined by your past,
Speaker 4: nor does anybody, nor does Rachel. You Gutell from being
Speaker 4: Tiger was this mister, Like, you know, people should not
Speaker 4: be defined by mistakes that they've made in their past.
Speaker 5: For sure, And I appreciate that. And I think you
Speaker 5: know that when you feel that professionally versus personally, because
Speaker 5: I've anyone that I've dated or or had some time
Speaker 5: spent some time with in a romantic way. That's one
Speaker 5: of the first things I bring up where I'm like,
Speaker 5: what questions do you have? I'm like, look, you obviously
Speaker 5: know something. If you don't, then you will, you will. Yeah,
Speaker 5: where I just nip it in the butt. I'm just like, hey,
Speaker 5: what questions do you have? And whatever question they have,
Speaker 5: I answered, like just openly and honestly, because if it
Speaker 5: is someone that's going to judge you forward or hold
Speaker 5: it against you, especially in a personal relationship, and I'm like, okay,
Speaker 5: you're not. You don't need to be a part of
Speaker 5: my life. So that's been that's been a simpler part.
Speaker 5: It's definitely been you know what Mark's say in terms
Speaker 5: of like work has been the only area that I
Speaker 5: still have maybe some insecurity around it. And you know,
Speaker 5: with the book, I remember Janna even asked me Mark
Speaker 5: before I.
Speaker 4: Hated that conversation would be more than anything. I remember
Speaker 4: it was at the soccer field and I hated it.
Speaker 4: I hated every second and it happen that conversation with them.
Speaker 5: What about you writing the book?
Speaker 3: Well, the thing was was.
Speaker 4: After our book deal went away, right, I obviously asked
Speaker 4: for another deal. And you would have hated the first.
Speaker 5: Version, Oh for sure. If this book was written in
Speaker 5: twenty one, well it was, it was, it was published
Speaker 5: in twenty one.
Speaker 3: If it was published in twenty one, and it had
Speaker 3: been a different.
Speaker 5: Story, a whole different story.
Speaker 4: And through again realizing that it's not about him or
Speaker 4: there or another X or this X. It's all about
Speaker 4: looking in the mirror and realizing my patterns and the
Speaker 4: things that I had to work on. And even so
Speaker 4: some of the stories I'm like, damn it, like I
Speaker 4: don't want that to be want that to ruin this,
Speaker 4: And so I've really tried to. I skimmed it down
Speaker 4: as much as I could to respect where we're at
Speaker 4: relationally and our new what I've been saying kind of
Speaker 4: in interviews, is we have a new relationship. Our marriage died,
Speaker 4: but we have now formed a new relationship, and it's
Speaker 4: just this is a better relationship, but we have more,
Speaker 4: we have a Yes, it's a new relationship. And so
Speaker 4: I when we when I finally agreed that, Okay, I'm
Speaker 4: going through this book and this is happening. I remember
Speaker 4: seeing at the soccer fields and we were talking and
Speaker 4: I said, and I got a book coming out, And
Speaker 4: I just tried to because I just I didn't because
Speaker 4: I'm like, god, we were so good, because we were
Speaker 4: so bad post divorce for a good year at plus
Speaker 4: so we got to a good place.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, I don't want to. I don't want
Speaker 3: I don't want that energy again.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And even since you first told me that you're
Speaker 5: writing a book or that a book was coming out,
Speaker 5: I was skeptical. But even since then, which was probably
Speaker 5: what last fall, like a year ago that you first
Speaker 5: told me, things have evolved so much from last Fall
Speaker 5: to this fall or even you know, Jenne asked me
Speaker 5: now that it's published and stuff, She's like, you know,
Speaker 5: before it comes out, do you want to read it?
Speaker 5: And I told her. I was like, no, because I
Speaker 5: trust I trust our relationship more now than I ever have,
Speaker 5: and I believe Janna. What her point in her narrative
Speaker 5: is is if I read it, is there are there
Speaker 5: things that would bother me? Absolutely sure? Right, we all
Speaker 5: know there's three versions of the truth. Mine her is
Speaker 5: in the truth, right, so are they?
Speaker 6: Even the acknowledged truth might bother you because you're not
Speaker 6: in that place.
Speaker 3: You're not going to love the launder room scene.
Speaker 5: Right, And I don't you know, I don't even remember
Speaker 5: what that.
Speaker 3: Is exactly because we were so just right, Yeah, it.
Speaker 5: Was a whole different lifetime almost ago. And so for me,
Speaker 5: I was like, because I thought about I was like,
Speaker 5: why read it and then rehash in my own work
Speaker 5: and journey rehash some of these things emotionally and internally
Speaker 5: and feel any kind of way towards Janne where it's like,
Speaker 5: I'm again, I trust her, I know where her heart is,
Speaker 5: and anything in there I know doesn't necessarily directly have
Speaker 5: to do with me more. It's just her story, right,
Speaker 5: And unfortunately the tabloids or the publications or whoever is
Speaker 5: going to still write stuff about this might try to
Speaker 5: attach me to this, but it has nothing to do
Speaker 5: with me, and I trust that now. If she had
Speaker 5: published it two years ago, that'd have been a different story.
Speaker 5: But I just I don't care. I support her, I'm
Speaker 5: proud of her, I'm happy for her. But whatever it
Speaker 5: says about in regards to maybe referring to our marriage,
Speaker 5: it is what it is. There's no point in me
Speaker 5: occupying time in my heart with it.
Speaker 4: Is there anything that you'd want because you've never actually
Speaker 4: had like a statement. Is there anything you'd want to
Speaker 4: say that like?
Speaker 3: Is your.
Speaker 5: Not really, because I've kind of prided myself on not
Speaker 5: saying anything at any point and just allowing time to
Speaker 5: take care of this. Now, with that said, I'll just
Speaker 5: say how grateful and appreciative I am of our situation now,
Speaker 5: because if it weren't for both of us, we wouldn't
Speaker 5: be here in this moment. How well we coparent, how
Speaker 5: much we how much love we have for one another,
Speaker 5: and how much respect we clearly have for one another
Speaker 5: now compared to before. And we all know everyone listening, Mark,
Speaker 5: you know, we both know many married couples or divorced
Speaker 5: couples that are just miserable that it is just supervised
Speaker 5: drop offs or like court things or this or that,
Speaker 5: and it's just it really has made me appreciate you
Speaker 5: and our situation tremendously because it could be so, so worse.
Speaker 6: And it's good that you know in twenty three, putting
Speaker 6: this book out in twenty three, you know the spirit
Speaker 6: is coming from, you know the relationship you have, you
Speaker 6: know where her mindset is. Two years ago, it would
Speaker 6: have been more of a venomous situation, correct of how
Speaker 6: war was still going on. But also I'll also say this,
Speaker 6: I have many regrets in my life, my relationships, my parenting,
Speaker 6: whatever it is. We've talked about them on here. If
Speaker 6: I had to read a book about my regrets that
Speaker 6: I have, the times in my life that I wish
Speaker 6: I'd done differently, I mean, nobody would want to read
Speaker 6: that book. So I understand that even if it is
Speaker 6: one hundred percent accurate what is being described, I still
Speaker 6: want no part of it because I'm not there anymore.
Speaker 6: And I hated the way I behaved in that situation.
Speaker 6: Whatever it is you brought up dating so and the
Speaker 6: Google world following you around and all that stuff, and
Speaker 6: the questions that they're allowed to ask ask you. I wonder,
Speaker 6: how are you seeing anyone right now? Can I ask that?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I am seeing someone right now?
Speaker 6: Is trust an issue there? I mean it's I think
Speaker 6: the infidelity.
Speaker 3: What happened, Oh, things change, things evolved, Okay, news.
Speaker 5: It go ahead. Mark.
Speaker 6: Well, I'm just saying the infidelity is going to come
Speaker 6: up anything she knows anything about you publicly, it's going
Speaker 6: to be that she can ask you all the questions
Speaker 6: she wants. But I feel like she's going to have
Speaker 6: that in the back of her mind. And is that
Speaker 6: going to be a problem. How do you address that?
Speaker 6: How do you establish that we're starting fresh, this is
Speaker 6: a new situation. I'm going to earn that trust.
Speaker 5: It's not even about me earning the trust because people
Speaker 5: that I've dated, I've had, you know, a couple relationships
Speaker 5: and people I've seen over the last couple of years.
Speaker 5: And for me, I've been very upfront again, like I
Speaker 5: said earlier, like if you have any questions, asked now, right,
Speaker 5: let's clear all this out so you don't then moving forward.
Speaker 5: It's look, just because of my past is known, doesn't
Speaker 5: give you the right to not trust me, right, That's
Speaker 5: not fair And I won't be in something that I'm
Speaker 5: not trusted now, I'm not naive and saying that I
Speaker 5: have a clean slate compared to maybe someone that you
Speaker 5: don't know everything about. So I'm understanding of that. But
Speaker 5: all I asked is like, Hey, if you have something
Speaker 5: come up with you, come talk to me. Don't be
Speaker 5: passive with me, don't say little comments, don't make little hints.
Speaker 5: I can't read your mind. If something is going on,
Speaker 5: tell me so we can talk about it. And so
Speaker 5: those moments you know have come up in relationships and everything,
Speaker 5: and that's fine, but it's I don't have a big
Speaker 5: tolerance for being things being said in a way that
Speaker 5: I can tell they don't trust me. Where I'm just like, okay, Like,
Speaker 5: if you're going to be like this already, I see
Speaker 5: where this is going. I've been down this road. I've
Speaker 5: done nothing to give you, specifically, any reason not to
Speaker 5: trust me. So let's just call a spade a spade
Speaker 5: and we'll end it here. So that's one thing I've
Speaker 5: been very very forthright with and on the front end
Speaker 5: of things with anyone that I've seen or dated, is
Speaker 5: you're going to know where we stand. And I don't
Speaker 5: really have a big tolerance for this passive aggressiveness alluding
Speaker 5: to things, just come out and say it, And I
Speaker 5: just can't be in something where I'm not trusted if.
Speaker 6: I didn't, I think the best way to get that
Speaker 6: clean slate and correct me if I'm wrong is to
Speaker 6: point to the treatment you've been through for your addiction issues.
Speaker 6: I feel like that's one way of establishing Look, that
Speaker 6: was me, then, this is what I've been through since,
Speaker 6: this is who I am now. Do you feel like
Speaker 6: that is completely behind you? Do you feel like you're
Speaker 6: not not cured? But do you feel like the treatment
Speaker 6: has put you in a good place to be a
Speaker 6: good partner and to be a better person.
Speaker 5: Yeah, for sure. And that's a question that's come up,
Speaker 5: especially in the earlier phases of all of this, when
Speaker 5: things were a lot more prevalent. Is sex auted questions,
Speaker 5: sex addiction questions. And what I'll tell people is like,
Speaker 5: do I believe it's a thing? Absolutely? I know it
Speaker 5: to be. I know too many guys are still very
Speaker 5: You're close with guys that I was in program with.
Speaker 5: For me personally, what I experienced once Jana and I
Speaker 5: got divorced, if you would have told me before her
Speaker 5: and I got divorced. Hey, Mike, you're going to be
Speaker 5: divorced in three months. What do you think you're going
Speaker 5: to do. In all honesty, I've been like, I'm in
Speaker 5: the streets, I'm doing everything and everything I want to do.
Speaker 5: I'm having fun. For the first two months, I didn't
Speaker 5: do anything right. I didn't go out, I didn't sleep
Speaker 5: with anybody. I wasn't even we talked about here watching
Speaker 5: porn like nothing. And that time because I didn't want
Speaker 5: to emotionally run back to things that I would in
Speaker 5: the past, where like whether it's stuff with Jana and
Speaker 5: I or even before Jana or whatever, where it's it's like,
Speaker 5: all right, i'm feeling sort of some sort of way,
Speaker 5: I'm out, I got to check out, let me go
Speaker 5: sleep with somebody, let me go watch for and let
Speaker 5: me eat whatever, right, because that was my thing. And
Speaker 5: so that like two months span was the first time
Speaker 5: where I was just like, I don't need I'm feeling
Speaker 5: all of these feelings, but I don't need this. And
Speaker 5: so it was it was a whole evolution and kind
Speaker 5: of learning process for me. And it wasn't like a
Speaker 5: thing that I just made a decision for myself it's like, Oh,
Speaker 5: I'm to your point where I'm cured. I'm no longer
Speaker 5: no longer going to twelve step meetings, I'm you know whatever.
Speaker 5: It was through consultation with my then sponsor, is, through
Speaker 5: consultation with my therapist, and just an ongoing process of
Speaker 5: talking about things where for the first time, I wasn't
Speaker 5: like lying to myself right, I wasn't trying to sit
Speaker 5: here and overcompensate to like prove something to Janna or
Speaker 5: make my self look better than I was because of
Speaker 5: things in our marriage or relationship, or my own shame
Speaker 5: or insecurity or whatever it was. It was just me
Speaker 5: living with me, accepting my life at that point and
Speaker 5: just understanding it's like the first time, I'm not running
Speaker 5: to something else to fix this.
Speaker 6: In treatment, were you able to get to the route?
Speaker 6: Do you think of where this comes from? Because I
Speaker 6: feel like that's when I've looked at the problematic behavior
Speaker 6: from my past, it's really helped me to get to
Speaker 6: the why of it. And you don't need to get
Speaker 6: into the why. But do you feel like you were
Speaker 6: able to figure out the why and the root?
Speaker 5: Yeah? I think once because towards the end, you know,
Speaker 5: I just wanted to blame everything on Janna unfairly, right,
Speaker 5: turfault if you didn't keep getting on me. You know,
Speaker 5: I'll be fine if you didn't do this, if you
Speaker 5: didn't do that, because that was just the place that
Speaker 5: I was at where now I could just yeah and
Speaker 5: treat me. And through all the years I learned more
Speaker 5: of kind of a root of things, and I was
Speaker 5: able to just kind of sit with that and accept it.
Speaker 5: And then I was like, well, I don't have this
Speaker 5: thing right in front of me to blame. It was
Speaker 5: like I used Janna as like my scapegoat to blame
Speaker 5: it all on her. Well, if I blame it on her,
Speaker 5: it's not my fault. Well that's bullshit. So yeah, I
Speaker 5: think it was just that time afterwards, just I was
Speaker 5: able to focus more on just that original root of
Speaker 5: things and just kind of live there and deal with it.
Speaker 3: I've never heard you say that, I do appreciate that
Speaker 3: for the girl that.
Speaker 4: Blames herself or doesn't feel good enough, what would you
Speaker 4: say to that person if she's having someone that has
Speaker 4: continuously cheated on her, that carries that it was my fault, Like,
Speaker 4: you know, is my fault that now they're all healthy
Speaker 4: and moved on, and.
Speaker 5: It has nothing to do with you. It has everything
Speaker 5: to do with that person because like in us, it
Speaker 5: had everything to do with me, just like you can
Speaker 5: take it back to what we were talking about earlier.
Speaker 5: Was this podcast an issue because we talked about things
Speaker 5: and all of that. Sure, again, do those things affect it? Yes,
Speaker 5: maybe we're certain ways that Jana was towards me or
Speaker 5: things that she said or did. Did it affect me? Yes, well,
Speaker 5: I'm a human. It affected me emotionally, but that's not
Speaker 5: why I made the terrible decisions that I made. It
Speaker 5: was because of me. Period.
Speaker 6: I feel like that's narcissism in a lot of ways.
Speaker 6: That's the definition of that. Like I can do whatever
Speaker 6: I want, whenever I want, I'll never pay a price
Speaker 6: for it, and if I do pay a price for it,
Speaker 6: it's someone else's.
Speaker 5: Fault for sure.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think a lot of us have been down there,
Speaker 6: whether we want to admit that or not.
Speaker 5: Absolutely.
Speaker 6: We talked about two different ways. This is going to
Speaker 6: follow you around, and this is a question for both
Speaker 6: of you. The employment relationships, the kids. The kids are
Speaker 6: seven and four, They're not always going to be seven
Speaker 6: and four. They're going to be on the internet. They're
Speaker 6: going to find out this stuff that they don't already
Speaker 6: know about. How are you going to deal with that,
Speaker 6: both of you? Because honestly, Jenny, you brought it up earlier,
Speaker 6: the stuff in your past that you're not so proud of.
Speaker 6: Mike's got these issues, the issues with the both of you.
Speaker 6: I think that's going to be some tough conversation someday.
Speaker 6: Are you going to try to nip that in the
Speaker 6: bud before they find it themselves or are you just
Speaker 6: going to address it when their friends bring it up?
Speaker 6: You know, I think that's going to follow you around
Speaker 6: in that way as well.
Speaker 4: I think something incorrects me if I'm wrong, But I
Speaker 4: think something where we've always kind of said that we
Speaker 4: would This is when we were still married, but we
Speaker 4: said that we would sit them down before and be like,
Speaker 4: well look at us now. And I think it's kind
Speaker 4: of the same thing where it's so look at us now.
Speaker 4: Something has happened in our past. Mommy and Daddy had
Speaker 4: some you know, hard times, but we're such good friends
Speaker 4: now and we can all do things together and just
Speaker 4: manage it on the front end, right.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't I don't think that's changed changed for
Speaker 5: me at all. My whole goal, Like even if you
Speaker 5: take the last two and a half years, the driving
Speaker 5: force of me not saying anything was was the kids.
Speaker 5: I was like, I don't want for me, I don't
Speaker 5: want my kids to from this point on to see
Speaker 5: me say anything negative about their mother, right, and and
Speaker 5: that that was my motivating force every single day. And
Speaker 5: now it's the same thing it were like when Jane
Speaker 5: save when we're married, it's the same where there by
Speaker 5: the time we were fortunate that they were young enough
Speaker 5: during like the heat of all of our past, where
Speaker 5: by the time they get of age, they're going to
Speaker 5: know us as mom and dad, like in the capacity
Speaker 5: that we are now, where.
Speaker 4: Jace doesn't even remember you living. Like the other day
Speaker 4: I was watching a video and he's like, why was
Speaker 4: Daddy here? And I was like, that was our house maybe,
Speaker 4: And I was like, oh my gosh, it doesn't even
Speaker 4: remember that we lived in the same home together.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so little, yeah, they're not going to know any e.
Speaker 5: J Olia will know a little bit of a difference,
Speaker 5: but even I mean so yeah, I don't even know
Speaker 5: how to answer that. Mark. I just think when the
Speaker 5: time comes, we'll know.
Speaker 3: But we've learned to love our kids more than hate
Speaker 3: each other. Right, we just continue that.
Speaker 5: We love them so much that we're pretty confident that
Speaker 5: when that day and never comes, that it's not going
Speaker 5: to be as big of a deal as maybe we
Speaker 5: thought it would be.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and well, you know, we'll talk about co parenting
Speaker 4: and some things that we've done later on in the
Speaker 4: next in the next next.
Speaker 6: Oh, good tease, And maybe there's a teachable moment there.
Speaker 6: You know, there's a you're going to make mistakes in life.
Speaker 6: You need to own up to them. You know, there's
Speaker 6: no one's perfect. You see your parents as perfect. When
Speaker 6: they realize they're not perfect, there's a lesson that we
Speaker 6: learned there. I think they don't have to be either,
Speaker 6: and when they make a mistake, they can live up
Speaker 6: to it. All right, Yeah, okay, one more. When you
Speaker 6: look back at your marriage, Harry goes, is it you
Speaker 6: know it didn't work out? Or is it I we
Speaker 6: had a good thing and I f that up? Or
Speaker 6: is it I f that up? But I've I've improved myself.
Speaker 6: I've worked on myself and I'm in a better place now.
Speaker 6: When you look back at your marriage. How do you
Speaker 6: see it?
Speaker 5: Right? I look at it and maybe this is just
Speaker 5: for my own like processing, so I don't live in
Speaker 5: the past, but I look at it as you know what,
Speaker 5: we didn't work out for a multitude of reasons, right,
Speaker 5: majority that I'll take blame for, you know, I'll fall
Speaker 5: on that sword, I'll die in that hill that I
Speaker 5: you know, I I've owned my stuff. But ultimately we
Speaker 5: just we weren't going to work out. And I think
Speaker 5: because of the relationship and respect and really blossoming friendship
Speaker 5: that Jane and I are able to have now confirms
Speaker 5: that for me where it's like, okay, part of why
Speaker 5: we're able to be where we're at now is because
Speaker 5: we're just like, you know what, at least again, for me,
Speaker 5: it wasn't going to work out.
Speaker 6: Is it fair to say there was a toxicity with
Speaker 6: you two, regardless of infidelity? At times.
Speaker 4: It's hard and I write about this in the book,
Speaker 4: that we didn't really get to have anything but the
Speaker 4: like For example, in the book, my therapist is like,
Speaker 4: let's be honest, take away the cheating. You didn't really
Speaker 4: like them, And I'm like, wait, what She's like, there
Speaker 4: were so many other things that he didn't meet your
Speaker 4: needs and you weren't meeting his needs. But the cheating
Speaker 4: was always the reason for well, why I acted this
Speaker 4: way and why you acted that way, And so we
Speaker 4: didn't really get to have a true we didn't really
Speaker 4: get to see what our marriage could have looked like
Speaker 4: really without the infidelity, because it played apart from the
Speaker 4: get yeah, And I think that piece is where I
Speaker 4: just kind of go, I'll never know what it would
Speaker 4: have looked like because I think that toxicity came in
Speaker 4: with the distrust and the resentments on both sides, and
Speaker 4: you know, it's.
Speaker 3: Hard to hear.
Speaker 4: Even being to super truthful, just like that's just what
Speaker 4: it was going to be. And it's like I hate
Speaker 4: that because I wish that, you know, it could have been.
Speaker 4: There's so many years of so much just yeah, the
Speaker 4: toxicity and the fighting and the stress and all the
Speaker 4: I mean, there's just so many years of that. It's like,
Speaker 4: I wish you had it just if you knew that
Speaker 4: let it go. But we didn't know that in the moment, right,
Speaker 4: So we were both trying to like fight for it.
Speaker 4: So it's we weren't given it. I don't think an
Speaker 4: ample chance to have no for a marriage.
Speaker 5: No, And that's where you can play the what if
Speaker 5: game all day. And that's where I'm just like the
Speaker 5: fact because I can't. Yeah, I have nothing to go
Speaker 5: back on it and to be like, well if this
Speaker 5: didn't happen, There's just so much at this point. It's
Speaker 5: like it's an emotional mental impossibility to put ourselves in
Speaker 5: a situation without all of the things that come with it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Last question, is Jenny getting married too soon? Oh?
Speaker 5: What a good question. Why are people saying that?
Speaker 6: I mean, I said that was your first told.
Speaker 4: When I told him, he's like, oh, for fun, He's
Speaker 4: like he like came off the zoom.
Speaker 3: He's like, chan on. I was like, I know, I know.
Speaker 5: Here's what I'll say again, I know Jana better than
Speaker 5: pretty much anybody. I know. Jana loves love or loves love.
Speaker 5: On paper, is it too soon? Sure, whatever, But I
Speaker 5: love Alan a lot, like the utmost respect for him,
Speaker 5: and so it's no one else is able to experience
Speaker 5: or witness what I am able to write. So yeah,
Speaker 5: on paper, people would be like, yeah, it's too soon.
Speaker 5: But from the moment I met Alan, you know, everything
Speaker 5: has just been respectful understanding and I see why. And
Speaker 5: I was teasing Jana at soccer the other day because
Speaker 5: I was like, Hey, Jana, how does that make you
Speaker 5: feel You're not the prettiest in the relationship anymore? Because
Speaker 5: that guy is handsome? Okay? But no, I just I
Speaker 5: see the fact that talking about Alan is what's making
Speaker 5: me emotional right now. It's just it's really hilarious, but
Speaker 5: it's it's literally what I you know, two and a
Speaker 5: half years ago when we got divorced, what I would
Speaker 5: hope this could become is coming to fruition because ultimately
Speaker 5: I knew Jana was going to find someone before me.
Speaker 5: I just knew, and this is what I imagined it
Speaker 5: could be like, and it's actually being that where everybody
Speaker 5: is winning, everybody wins. Jana has a man that is
Speaker 5: incredible and loving and respectful and truthful from all intents
Speaker 5: and purposes that I've seen that I've experienced, right, so
Speaker 5: she has what she's looking for. I have someone that
Speaker 5: I can trust around my kids, that I see taking
Speaker 5: really good care of the mother of my children, which
Speaker 5: is all I care about as their father. And then
Speaker 5: it's someone who also accepts the relationship of all of
Speaker 5: us because he's divorced himself and he understands and so
Speaker 5: he's been through that. And so it's the fact that
Speaker 5: I can feel as welcome in their home as I do,
Speaker 5: where I can just walk into their house. It's a
Speaker 5: little things like that. I'm like, that doesn't go overlooked
Speaker 5: for me, because he would have every right to be, like, hey, Jana, Like,
Speaker 5: I'm not comfortable with Mike hanging around after he drops
Speaker 5: off the kids, where the three of us will sit
Speaker 5: there and just kind of talk in the kitchen. I'm
Speaker 5: not comfortable with Mike, you know whatever. He would be
Speaker 5: in his right to do that, but it's not that way.
Speaker 5: It's a very uniform thing, and so and so for
Speaker 5: that reason, I personally don't think it's too soon because
Speaker 5: I see them and it makes me happy that Jana
Speaker 5: has that and that my kids have that.
Speaker 6: It's a really happy ending through a difficult story. Thank
Speaker 6: you guys for having me on. It's great to see you.
Speaker 5: Mike. You too great to be on the show.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 4: I could do this all day, all right, Well, thank you,
Speaker 4: Well maybe we'll we'll do some more later on in
Speaker 4: the near future. But thank you Mark for coming on.
Speaker 4: And we're gonna do a part tow you coming up.
Speaker 4: Next episode will be the Girls.
Speaker 3: Let's stay tuned
Speaker 5: M hm.