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Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast. Hi, Hi, guys,

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Speaker 1: it's the week.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, Jana, Good morning. That would be my current mood.

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Speaker 2: Good morning Jana and Catherine.

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Speaker 3: Guys.

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Speaker 2: What a blessed day today is? It's book week. It

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Speaker 2: is book week, and I'm really proud of you.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: I got teared up. Did you hear it on the Instagram?

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Speaker 2: I tried to swallow my tears fast, friend, I did.

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Speaker 3: Why did you get teared?

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Speaker 2: Probably cry right now?

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Speaker 1: Okay?

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Speaker 2: Episode of wind Down. Yeah, I'm just really proud of you.

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Speaker 3: Same.

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Speaker 4: Kat had said something to me we were flying back

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Speaker 4: from New York last night, and I sometimes forget because

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Speaker 4: I've we've all lived it.

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Speaker 3: But I guess.

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Speaker 4: I in my mind it might have not been as

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Speaker 4: heavy and she was ever she was. I'll let you

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Speaker 4: say what you said to me on the plane about

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Speaker 4: how every time you.

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Speaker 1: Read it, every time I read anything about it, every

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Speaker 1: time you talk about it, it makes me cry. And

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Speaker 1: I'm not I mean, I am a crier, but I

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Speaker 1: like to avoid my feelings. You know, there is something

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Speaker 1: about this topic that just gets me every single time.

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Speaker 1: I was crying in the car on the way here.

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Speaker 2: She was and I called her. She called me and

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Speaker 2: I was like, I was just crying and listening to.

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Speaker 1: Worship music too, because I go I mean, anyway, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to go straight into I mean, it's book week.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited for you, but yeah, it's a lot,

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Speaker 1: it's emotional.

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Speaker 4: Well you almost I think I forget I didn't go

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Speaker 4: through all of this alone, and you guys carried a

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Speaker 4: lot of this with me. You were in the book

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Speaker 4: and I can't remember which chapter it was, but we

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Speaker 4: were under a table together, you and me, KB and

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Speaker 4: then Catherine obviously, I mean, you are a ginormous part

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Speaker 4: of the book. And there's so many things that we'd

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Speaker 4: talk about from the very beginning too, and there's so

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Speaker 4: many things too that you know, are even not in there,

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Speaker 4: that we've been through with everything, and so for I

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Speaker 4: almost forget how much weight you guys have also carried

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Speaker 4: through the last seven years of this next chapter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's about to sixty two hundred and

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Speaker 2: sixty pounds is what we were carrying. Does that feel accurate?

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure exact weight class, but.

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Speaker 1: I think that, at least speaking for myself, I don't

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Speaker 1: even think I realize until those moments how much weight

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Speaker 1: I was carrying in that time.

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Speaker 2: You carried double I think, right, it's.

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Speaker 1: Just like in the moment, it's just like, what do

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Speaker 1: we need to do. Let's take care of things, let's

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Speaker 1: you know, da da da. It's not until I hear

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Speaker 1: y'all talk about it and I go back there, or

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Speaker 1: I read about it and I think about it and

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Speaker 1: I'm so emotional. I don't realize how much weight it

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Speaker 1: actually was on me as well.

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Speaker 4: What do you think as a friend was the hardest

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Speaker 4: piece for you going through that journey with me those

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Speaker 4: many years.

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Speaker 1: The hardest part was just seeing you hurt. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's nobody wants to see anybody hurt, but then to

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Speaker 1: have the person that's so closest to you hurt over

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Speaker 1: and over and over again. But also in part not

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Speaker 1: doing it to yourself, but allowing it, and that's I

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Speaker 1: think was the hardest piece, because it's like you, I

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Speaker 1: understand that you can't see it when you're in the

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Speaker 1: middle of it. I totally understand that, but that's what's

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Speaker 1: so frustrating on this point, this part, you know, it

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Speaker 1: is like you can't see it, but you're so hurt,

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Speaker 1: and you keep getting hurt, and you're allowing yourself to

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Speaker 1: get hurt. But it's like a it's a it's a

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Speaker 1: frustrating and hard feeling because you know, I mean, as

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Speaker 1: Amy's told me before, like they have to see it

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Speaker 1: for themselves, and you know that. I know that in

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Speaker 1: that moment, but I'm like just praying, like what at

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Speaker 1: what point? At what point is she going to see

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Speaker 1: it for herself? At what point is the hurt not

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Speaker 1: going to be worth it? It was interesting to me.

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Speaker 2: I felt like I always was fighting, as long as

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Speaker 2: you were fighting, and then there was the time, like

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Speaker 2: the straw that broke the camel's back for me was

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Speaker 2: not as catastrophic and big as I thought it would be.

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Speaker 3: I thought it would be like a big.

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Speaker 2: Like some giant relationship or some huge, you know, something

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Speaker 2: outside of marriage. And I was like, that's it. And

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Speaker 2: I remember exactly where I was when you sent it.

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Speaker 2: I remember exactly how I typed it in, just sent

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Speaker 2: it from my soul, and I I think it's just

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Speaker 2: difficult because we were friends with him too, and so

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Speaker 2: it was like, stop messing with this, like stop messing

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Speaker 2: with all of us, stop hurting our friend, but then

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Speaker 2: also like we have fun game nights and we're all

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Speaker 2: we all have inside jokes, like Kat and I have

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Speaker 2: both been on the road with you at separate times,

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Speaker 2: like I did all of Texas with you and Mike,

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Speaker 2: you know, like I'm like, but this is too tall, Mike,

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Speaker 2: Like get it together, dude, you have such a good life. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I always well, especially layered for you, Cat, because

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Speaker 2: you have the business side to carry too, Like you

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Speaker 2: defend her as a friend, but then you also defend

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Speaker 2: her as a client. And so that's why to me

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Speaker 2: it always is perceived as double heavy. Not that you

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Speaker 2: have ever framed it that way, but in my brain,

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Speaker 2: I'd always literally had said like, oh, I wouldn't want

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Speaker 2: to be Cat.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's just a hard wanting to be a friend,

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Speaker 1: but also thinking like but how do we protect her?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, you got to think about that. How

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Speaker 1: do we protect finances? How do we protect you know?

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Speaker 1: You have to go into like a business mode and

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Speaker 1: a and it's hard and I can remember very specifically

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Speaker 1: in that time, and I hope you heard it this way.

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Speaker 1: I tried really hard. You know, Okay, this is friend

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Speaker 1: Kat talking, this is business Cat talking now because it

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Speaker 1: seems so callous. I mean, it just seems so and

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Speaker 1: I understand I am a tough love type person anyways,

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Speaker 1: So then that layered with that having to go okay,

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Speaker 1: but we have to think about this too. It seemed

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Speaker 1: hard and it was hard for me, and it was hard.

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Speaker 1: It made me feel, you know, like I was just

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Speaker 1: too tough sometimes. And you know, at the end of

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Speaker 1: the day, I was probably the one person that from

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Speaker 1: the beginning said leave. I understand that I'll never forget

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Speaker 1: when you called and say okay, k Beef actually said

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Speaker 1: it's time, you know, because I had just was the

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Speaker 1: only one that kind of from the beginning whether I

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Speaker 1: should have or I shouldn't have. You know, I go

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Speaker 1: back and forth on whether I should have even stated that,

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Speaker 1: but I kind of was the one, you know that

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Speaker 1: just from the beginning was like enough is enough?

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Speaker 4: Is that where you think he, y'alls, why you think

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Speaker 4: he throughout the years didn't like you? Probably that you

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Speaker 4: guys had that tension.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, And it's it's so hard because hearing

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Speaker 1: that has really it's really it's really been hard, you know,

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Speaker 1: hearing you say the other day you're not sure if

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Speaker 1: he liked me the whole time. That was hard to

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Speaker 1: hear because, like you said, like I considered him a

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Speaker 1: friend and I'm going to cry because I did. I

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Speaker 1: loved him too, and her husbands loved him. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: he hates us now, you know, And that's not easy

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Speaker 1: and somewhat not fair. You know, I don't feel like

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Speaker 1: that's fair.

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Speaker 2: Because we also defended him on the backside so many.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, every time you said I'm not leaving, I'm forgiving him,

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Speaker 1: I chose to. I don't know if I forgave him,

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Speaker 1: but I chose to move on. Sure, I chose to

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Speaker 1: get along with him. I chose for him to still

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Speaker 1: be my friend. Did I believe everything he was saying? No,

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Speaker 1: I didn't. But I made a conscious choice to if

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Speaker 1: you're going to stay in this, I'm going to be

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Speaker 1: in this. And I think that's just it is.

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Speaker 5: Man.

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Speaker 1: It's just hard to really hear that. I guess he

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Speaker 1: didn't feel the same way. Well, I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I was just right, and you're probably right. There was

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Speaker 4: always that when there was a fight, it would be like, well,

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Speaker 4: Catherine's just your yes person or this or whatever, and.

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Speaker 1: Well, and what's interesting to that to me is. I

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Speaker 1: was thinking about this the other night. I feel like

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Speaker 1: if I was your yes person, I would have said, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're right, you can make this work. I was the opposite,

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Speaker 1: and so in that moment, I truly and I wasn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily the opposite, you know. I wasn't always just like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, you know him or you know or whatever,

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Speaker 1: but it was a y'all can't keep doing this to yourselves.

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Speaker 1: You can't keep living this way. So yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: I know that he thought that about me, that I

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Speaker 1: was your yes person. To me, I just felt like that,

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Speaker 1: you know, for the longest time, truly, you just wanted

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Speaker 1: to make it work. You really wanted people to tell

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Speaker 1: you to make it work. In my mind, I think

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Speaker 1: you did well.

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Speaker 2: I also think you thought it could like you have

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Speaker 2: two kids with someone. This isn't like a totally.

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Speaker 4: Breakup, right, And when you believe so that when someone

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Speaker 4: says I'll know, it's like you want to believe. Of

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Speaker 4: course you do also the father of your children, right,

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Speaker 4: And so I think that that kept me staying there

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Speaker 4: because it's it's like, well, what if he did what

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Speaker 4: if he did change? Then then what you know? And

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Speaker 4: I think what I kind of realized through the book

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Speaker 4: and when you guys read it too, is even if

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Speaker 4: and I even said in there, like even if there

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Speaker 4: wasn't some monumental thing, there were so many we were

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Speaker 4: not each other's person and it wasn't just because of

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Speaker 4: the infidelity. And that's something that I realized, Like he

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Speaker 4: didn't meet the needs that I really truly love now

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Speaker 4: and received from Alan and everything else.

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Speaker 2: So it's he didn't give you a chance to get

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Speaker 2: to know yourself well either. But that's not just on

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Speaker 2: him though, No, I know, you know, but like that

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Speaker 2: relationship never gave you the chance. Well, no, And that's

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Speaker 2: where it always felt very unfair. It's like I didn't

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Speaker 2: get to be the wife that I would have loved

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Speaker 2: to have been. Having said that, I think it's also

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Speaker 2: where I go to We just maybe weren't as compatible

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Speaker 2: and we moved quick obviously, And.

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Speaker 3: I don't know anything about that life.

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Speaker 1: It was just toxic kind of from the beginning. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well can who can be their best selves if they're

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Speaker 1: in a toxic relationship? Well, I remember saying that to you.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember the day that I told you I

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Speaker 2: was like, I really think you all are going to

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Speaker 2: end up being really good friends, Like I would watch

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Speaker 2: you interact so well as friends. But there was the

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Speaker 2: things that really I felt like mattered on the marriage front,

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Speaker 2: Like the non negotiables were just never there. It was

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Speaker 2: like every time you could gain a little bit of

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Speaker 2: trust back, like a little bit of like the roadback,

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Speaker 2: it just got scooped out again. And it was like,

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Speaker 2: there's just at some point it's not sustainable, or it

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Speaker 2: becomes sustainable, but both people have to become completely unhealthy

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Speaker 2: to work inside of it. And I was watching you go,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to become unhealthy. I was watching him

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Speaker 2: continue to repeat, and then I felt, and this is interesting,

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Speaker 2: This is the compassion side I have for him, is

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Speaker 2: I felt like he was doing everything he could do

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Speaker 2: to play the character he needed to play, but he

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Speaker 2: wasn't taking the time to actually learn himself. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: So then it was like he was giving the right answers,

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Speaker 2: or he was saying the right things, or he was

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Speaker 2: doing the check ins, but like the two versions of

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Speaker 2: him could never merge and like have a safe place

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Speaker 2: to land even in his own body.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think, but you he'd agree with that piece too,

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Speaker 4: and same, you know, I'm like, I trust you, I

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Speaker 4: didn't trust you. I'm saying I trust you, I don't

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Speaker 4: trust you. So it's it's same. And I think with

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Speaker 4: this book too, I will say what I'm most excited

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Speaker 4: about is the how it ended up, because again, when

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Speaker 4: I started the book, I was very angry, I was

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Speaker 4: very bitter, and there was a lot of things in

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Speaker 4: there that through the work with Amy and just you know,

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Speaker 4: healing and growing and learning, I took a lot of

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Speaker 4: stuff out because I'm like, it doesn't it's not about him,

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Speaker 4: And that's my most excited piece of it, but also

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Speaker 4: it's my most fearful piece of this week in book released,

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Speaker 4: because I don't want anyone to make this.

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Speaker 3: Book about them.

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Speaker 4: There could be someone in this book that makes it

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Speaker 4: about them and we'll say things or and it's like,

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Speaker 4: this book has actually nothing to do about you or

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Speaker 4: any of my exes. It's all about the stuff that like,

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Speaker 4: I've looked in the mirror and I'm doing things differently

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Speaker 4: and I'm learning and I'm growing and I'm trying, you know,

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Speaker 4: to do better at this. So that's like my excitement,

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Speaker 4: but also my like fear too that someone's gonna try

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Speaker 4: and take it like I'm talking bad about them. I'm like,

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Speaker 4: it has nothing to do about you. Well, these are

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Speaker 4: my stories, my experiences, and it has nothing to do

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Speaker 4: with it. You might have contributed to my story, but

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Speaker 4: this book is not about you. It's about how I

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Speaker 4: had to look in the mirror and face the fact

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Speaker 4: that I was repeating really toxic patterns over and over

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Speaker 4: and over again, and that when people live an offense, though,

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Speaker 4: they're going to be offended no matter how you word it.

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Speaker 4: If you're a person that lives an offence, you will

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Speaker 4: take everything personal. And so that is more about them

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Speaker 4: than about you.

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Speaker 3: For sure.

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Speaker 1: Is there anything specific you can think about in this

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Speaker 1: book that you're just nervous for it to be out there,

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Speaker 1: Whether it's a behavior of yours that you're putting out

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Speaker 1: there or something that has happened that you know you

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Speaker 1: haven't talked about, or is there just anything that you're

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Speaker 1: just you're nervous about.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the night that I talked to Miles because it's

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Speaker 4: such a touchy subject and I don't and I got

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Speaker 4: asked about it in an interview and I forgot to

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Speaker 4: even I was going to text to me like did

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Speaker 4: that come out? Because it's such a I talk about

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Speaker 4: how I pulled the case, my gun case from my drawer.

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Speaker 4: I had no intent of committing suicide. It was just

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Speaker 4: there and I grabbed it as like it was just

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Speaker 4: I was in a cry for help. And I don't

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Speaker 4: I can't even explain why I grabbed it or but

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Speaker 4: it was just I was I was never going to intend.

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Speaker 4: I wasn't suicidal and a nuts and I can't. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I for people that are, I'm so sorry and I

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Speaker 4: can't even imagine the pain that you go through. I

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Speaker 4: think in that moment, that was just a cry for

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Speaker 4: help to myself, like because I just wanted the noise

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Speaker 4: to stop from the media and the trolls and the

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Speaker 4: it just but I would never have taken my life,

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Speaker 4: So that's just like for me, I just want that

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Speaker 4: to That's just it was just touchy and I didn't

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Speaker 4: know if I wanted to put it in there, but

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Speaker 4: it was a moment of like I hit.

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Speaker 3: My rock bottom and it was.

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Speaker 4: Just there and I just screamed at it, and I

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Speaker 4: think it was that was my way of like get help.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's powerful.

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Speaker 2: Is there anything that you wrote that you maybe wish

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Speaker 2: you weren't so honest about because your kids will potentially

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Speaker 2: read this later on in life.

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Speaker 3: I took it out.

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Speaker 4: Good for you, God Creamer, look at you go, because

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Speaker 4: it wasn't those things weren't important. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because

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Speaker 4: I always do. It's important to my story and I

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Speaker 4: keep that in therapy. So there are things that happened

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Speaker 4: that they don't ever need to know about. We know

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Speaker 4: about it. I know about it, My therapist knows about it.

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Speaker 4: Y'all know about it. Nothing else has to be said

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Speaker 4: about it. That's right, well done, Bief. But I'm excited

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Speaker 4: and I really hope this book helps people, and I just, uh, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I'm I'm I'm I'm proud of it. I'm excited about it,

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Speaker 4: and I'm very much looking forward to the next.

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Speaker 3: Chapter because a big chapter.

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Speaker 4: It was just a year, but I've learned again so

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Speaker 4: much since and we'll continue to and obviously we'll chat

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Speaker 4: about it on wind up, but obviously there Uh. I

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Speaker 4: thought it was important to have Mike come on because

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Speaker 4: you know, he we have not spoken publicly about this

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Speaker 4: or anything, and I just thought it was only fair

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Speaker 4: to let him have a space to be able to

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Speaker 4: talk and hopefully we can mend some feelings and emotions.

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Speaker 4: But let's take a break, y'all, maybe go in the

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Speaker 4: other room, let Mike come back on the couch, and

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Speaker 4: then then we'll have you guys back on in a

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Speaker 4: little bit to chat.

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Speaker 3: Sounds good. You guys feel good about that.

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Speaker 2: We feel present.

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Speaker 4: Okay, right, okay, guys's take a break and we'll get

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Speaker 4: Mike Cousin on the podcast. Everyone, welcome Mike Cousin back

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Speaker 4: on the podcast.

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Speaker 5: What's up?

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Speaker 4: How does it feel to be back in the wind down.

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Speaker 5: The new and improved studio we got here? It's good.

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Speaker 5: It's like riding a bike. I guess. Actually, I will say, yeah.

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Speaker 5: I wasn't nervous until like this morning, really yeah, because

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Speaker 5: I know we had talked about it. This has been

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Speaker 5: a couple of months kind of in the making. I

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Speaker 5: was like, Nah, I'm good, I'm good. I'm good. In

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Speaker 5: this morning, I was like, I don't know if it's

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Speaker 5: the odderall or coffee.

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Speaker 2: But.

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Speaker 4: Or maybe the emotions, or maybe just the fact of

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Speaker 4: being behind a microphone or even saying anything for the

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Speaker 4: first time in two and a half years.

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Speaker 3: Has it been two and a half years since we've podcasted.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, let's see what mon month.

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Speaker 1: Are we in?

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Speaker 5: It's October twenty three.

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Speaker 3: So we've been divorced for April twenty twenty.

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Speaker 5: Twenty one, so it's about like ten.

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Speaker 1: Emotionally, I think dog ears like it's not.

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Speaker 5: People can't see me. But it's not just my beard

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Speaker 5: that probably makes me look a little older. It's like

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Speaker 5: a few more wrinkles, a few more grays, even less

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Speaker 5: hair in my head.

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Speaker 3: Is that possible?

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Speaker 5: I don't know, we.

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Speaker 3: Know what like do what do you think was it?

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Speaker 2: Is it?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, just kind of like being behind a mic again

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Speaker 4: or is that the is that the the the energy

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Speaker 4: or the nervousness that maybe came in this morning.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it was more about just being behind the mic

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Speaker 5: again over whatever we're going to end up talking about.

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Speaker 5: Because you know, like you and I have mentioned before

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Speaker 5: to ourselves, you know, this was ours for a long

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Speaker 5: time and we have a we you know, did a

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Speaker 5: lot on this show. So yeah, I was like, man,

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Speaker 5: you know, brings me back a little bit. There's a

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Speaker 5: big part of me that misses this aspect.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, wind down or being behind a doing because I

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Speaker 4: will say you were I remember when I started originally

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Speaker 4: and then you came on I'm like, we and this

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Speaker 4: is something we though it was hard. We enjoyed doing

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Speaker 4: the lighter episodes together, and you were really good behind

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Speaker 4: the microphone and you're a great interviewer and something where

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Speaker 4: it was hard when you did leave because I don't

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Speaker 4: have that innate ability or quality to be able to

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Speaker 4: interview like you've interviewed guests, like you're just really good

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Speaker 4: at asking questions.

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Speaker 5: I appreciate that. I mean, I think there's, like any

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Speaker 5: team doing something, we just complimented each other. Well, you know,

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Speaker 5: we just did in a lot of different ways, especially

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Speaker 5: when it came to professionally. So yeah, I think, yeah,

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Speaker 5: I appreciate that. There is I miss both the wind

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Speaker 5: down because even the tough episodes were a lot of growth,

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Speaker 5: a lot of people that got something from it, as

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Speaker 5: difficult as it might have been for us personally or emotionally.

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Speaker 5: But even since, you know, twenty eighteen when we started

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Speaker 5: doing it together, feels like a lifetime ago because now

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Speaker 5: everywhere you look, ever, everybody has a podcast. Yeah, right,

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Speaker 5: So it's just it's such an oversaturated market where we

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Speaker 5: benefited from being towards the forefront of of the timeline

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Speaker 5: that is now podcasting especially with TikTok and everything. It's

397
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Speaker 5: just SoundBite after SoundBite after SoundBite. So yeah, I missed. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: I missed podcasting in general, and I miss us doing

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Speaker 5: it together.

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Speaker 3: Can I ask a question about our podcast?

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Speaker 5: Sure?

402
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 4: Before and then I want to bring someone on that

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Speaker 4: might make you feel back at home, But I think, well,

404
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,239
Speaker 4: and we got and I don't want to again. I

405
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Speaker 4: want to respect the space that we're in, and I

406
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Speaker 4: love the space that we're in. So I don't want

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Speaker 4: to talk too much about the past of certain things,

408
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Speaker 4: but I do. I remember when we got divorced, a

409
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Speaker 4: lot of it was, you know, saying that we wish

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Speaker 4: we didn't share as much on this podcast, and so

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Speaker 4: I kind of thought, well, if we didn't have this platform,

412
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Speaker 4: then maybe we still would have been married and it

413
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Speaker 4: wouldn't have been our demise. And I fought with that

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Speaker 4: for a really long time. And I blame myself for

415
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Speaker 4: having this podcast so much so that I wanted to

416
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Speaker 4: quit the podcast because I felt the blame of I'm

417
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Speaker 4: the reason that you know, this all continued and stuff

418
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Speaker 4: because you felt like you had to be a certain

419
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Speaker 4: version or we kept telling the stories and it was

420
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Speaker 4: in tabloids and so you know, hearing you say you

421
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Speaker 4: missed it, it kind of in a way goes that makes

422
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Speaker 4: me feel a little better because for so long I

423
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Speaker 4: thought I was it was my fault that we got

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Speaker 4: to this place because of how open we ended up being.

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Speaker 4: And I know we regretted some episodes that we did,

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Speaker 4: but that wasn't the total demise.

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Speaker 5: Then, I guess, No, I wouldn't say, yeah, I'm sorry

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Speaker 5: to hear that you put that so much of that

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Speaker 5: on you. Yeah, the idea of the idea of our

430
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Speaker 5: marriage feeling like it became a business. And then yes,

431
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Speaker 5: the narrative of me always being the bad guy or

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Speaker 5: always feeling like the bad guy, or the interview or

433
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Speaker 5: talk show or a guest is like it always came

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Speaker 5: up and yeah, that is that wears you down. It

435
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Speaker 5: would wear down anybody. But by no means was it

436
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Speaker 5: the demise. Did it help? No, But it's did it

437
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Speaker 5: play a factor. I'm sure in some capacity, you know,

438
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:40,159
Speaker 5: talking about stuff to nauseum. Yeah, maybe it wouldn't have

439
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 5: been the healthiest thing to do on such a platform,

440
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 5: but I don't think I think the outcome is what

441
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:46,200
Speaker 5: it was supposed to be.

442
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:48,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was trying to find that. I had a

443
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 4: quote in the book where I said, you know, I

444
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,679
Speaker 4: was always cast as the eternal victim and you were

445
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 4: always cast as the perpetrator, two roles that never truly

446
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 4: embodied who we were, nor did we ever get to

447
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:01,640
Speaker 4: overcome those.

448
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,959
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, you're right, And even if it was, no

449
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 5: matter what we talked about or said, those were going

450
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 5: to be the narratives written. Yeah, no matter what.

451
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 4: Well, let's have someone pop on right now that I

452
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 4: would like to say hello, might have a few questions.

453
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 5: Man, now I really feel back at home.

454
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 6: Oh man, it's good to see you, Mike, it really is.

455
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 6: It's good to see you Mark a long time. And

456
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 6: you were always very good to me, very nice, very generous,

457
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 6: always had a really good time back in burback.

458
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 5: I missed those days, thank you, me too.

459
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 4: Were fun days. So we had a lot of fun.

460
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 5: We did. We did have a lot of fun.

461
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 6: It was it was always weird for me because when

462
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 6: there were problems and issues and I was like, it

463
00:24:55,000 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 6: seems like a nice day to me. Yeah, obviously I'm

464
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 6: not there with you guys. That's too bad because it

465
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 6: looks like a comfortable room you're in right now.

466
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 5: It is. It is Jana's new house or new studio

467
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 5: in the house.

468
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 3: It's very well done, it's cozy.

469
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 6: Have you listened to this show at all since you left?

470
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 6: And I know that that might be a weird question,

471
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,880
Speaker 6: but especially the episodes that were kind of about you

472
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 6: or the marriage, or the problems or the you know,

473
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 6: the post chat on that.

474
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 5: Nope, not one minute. Now, I will say it was

475
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 5: actually this morning because I know Jana. She had mentioned

476
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 5: to me that she teased the idea of me coming

477
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 5: on to the show a couple months ago. So I

478
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 5: found that episode and I listened to like the last

479
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 5: fifteen minutes just to kind of get an idea maybe

480
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:48,639
Speaker 5: where I'm walking into right just a little bit, so

481
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 5: I'm not completely blindsided in any kind of way, which

482
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 5: you know, Jana and I have talked about some things

483
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 5: before this, But that was it. That's all I've listened to.

484
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 3: And you've done.

485
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 4: Sorry, Mark, you've done I think in the beginning, and

486
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 4: I can understand this. I was trying to find the balance.

487
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 4: It was really hard, and you were getting people sending

488
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 4: you so many stories where you're just like, stop sending

489
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 4: me stories, and to me, you're like, stop talking, and

490
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 4: I'm like, I don't like, I'm just trying to cope,

491
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:23,880
Speaker 4: and this is that's the only way I knew how

492
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 4: right right, And I think that was that caused a

493
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 4: lot of rift between us.

494
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 5: It did very much. So so it would, Yeah, it

495
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 5: would get to the point mark where people would even

496
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 5: maybe even people that weren't necessarily close in my life,

497
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 5: just maybe acquaintances or some kind of light of friends

498
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 5: would send me things or whatever, and I'd be like, look, guys,

499
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 5: I don't care, so you shouldn't care. I was like us,

500
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 5: me sitting on this or letting it affect me isn't

501
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 5: going to help either jam or I or more importantly

502
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 5: the kids. So I know China better than pretty much

503
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 5: anyone else to this point. So I know she had

504
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 5: to go through what she had to go through, and

505
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 5: I did.

506
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 6: It my way back to whether or not wind Doown

507
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 6: was destructive, a destructive element in your relationship? Is there

508
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 6: any Is there a positive to that in the sense

509
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 6: that it brought you to together for a week for

510
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 6: an hour a week and forced you to talk through

511
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 6: some things that maybe a typical husband and a wife

512
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 6: don't sit down and talk through for an hour a week,

513
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 6: some of the fights you were having or whatever it was,

514
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 6: there any part of that that was helpful because otherwise

515
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 6: I think husbands and wives tend to kind of hide

516
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 6: sometimes when things aren't going great from each other.

517
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's exactly it mark where it's almost

518
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 5: maybe it even accelerated our timeline to not be together.

519
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 5: Where to your point, if we didn't have that platform

520
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,959
Speaker 5: or the questions arise or whatever, or we probably wouldn't.

521
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 5: We would just kind of put on a smile and

522
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 5: feel like everything's okay, or act like everything's okay. Where

523
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 5: it did force us into some difficult conversations that we

524
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 5: would later have to go home and discuss and kind

525
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 5: of unpack and talk about or bring up in couple's

526
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 5: therapy or whatever it might be. So, yeah, that's why,

527
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 5: you know, I don't think. I don't look at wind

528
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 5: down as necessarily the demise. It just accelerated what was

529
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 5: inevitably going to happen.

530
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 6: What's your life like these days? I haven't spoken to

531
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 6: you in years, how's it going? What's your day to day? Yeah?

532
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 6: I appreciate you asking. My day to day is literally

533
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 6: work and my children. That's if I'm not with the kids.

534
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 6: I'm working.

535
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 5: If i'm i'm with the kids, then I'm just with them.

536
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 5: So I'm in the I'll talk about it more later,

537
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 5: but I'm in the health insurance industry as an independent advisor,

538
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 5: and I'll just say what to anyone else hearing that

539
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 5: or listening to be like insurance like gross? Like who

540
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 5: likes to talk about insurance? Right? Like no one really

541
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 5: cares until you need it. And sure, what I enjoy

542
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 5: about it is just like anyone in life. And I

543
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 5: feel like, especially men, we like to have a purpose, right,

544
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 5: a professional purpose outside of anything else being a husband

545
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 5: or a father or whatever it may be. And so

546
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 5: I enjoy being an asset and that's what I am

547
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 5: to people now. I'm an asset to people who need

548
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 5: help with something that it's a foreign language to most people.

549
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 5: Most people don't understand how insurance works. They know that

550
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 5: they need it, but they don't know the ins and outs.

551
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 5: So I kind of look at myself as a translator

552
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 5: where I'm able to take this information translate it for

553
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 5: you so you better understand it and find you a

554
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,719
Speaker 5: plan or policy that works for you and your family.

555
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 3: And where can people find you?

556
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 5: Mike i'll have Janna post something, but I have an

557
00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 5: email and I created an Instagram dun Du purely for this.

558
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 5: It's not a personal Instagram. It's because I do give

559
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 5: people my personal cell phone number as clients because I

560
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 5: come with their policies. I'm there to help them through

561
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 5: the lifetime of their policy and so I'm not just

562
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 5: going to give out my personal phone number to anybody,

563
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 5: but it's you know, if people are interested, especially with

564
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 5: open enrollment coming up November first to December fifteenth, I'm

565
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 5: available via email and direct message on Instagram to help

566
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 5: people navigate that crazy world of insurance.

567
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 6: Insurance is annoying because you just pay them money over

568
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 6: and over, over and over and over again. Then when

569
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 6: you do need them, they try to screw you over. Now,

570
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 6: I think that's for people's impression of insurance.

571
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 5: Agreed, And that's what a lot of it is, especially

572
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 5: government based plans. And I primarily work with private market

573
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 5: plans which aren't regulated by the government and follow the

574
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 5: same kind of rules, so you're able to get more

575
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 5: bang for your buck. And it's actually it's a lot

576
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 5: easier when you're working with something that's a superior product, right,

577
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 5: no matter what it is. If you work with something

578
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 5: that you know is just better, it's a lot easier

579
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 5: to do for a living right where I don't Some

580
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 5: people call this insurance sales. I don't really call it sales.

581
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 5: I call it I'm literally an advisor. If you need help,

582
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 5: I'll advise you. And sometimes I can't help you, and

583
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 5: that's okay.

584
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 4: We'll give them your email and then we'll take a

585
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 4: break and we'll get back on with some more stuff.

586
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 5: All right. My email is Michaelcousin dot agent at gmail

587
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 5: dot com. And the Instagram is just I can't believe

588
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 5: I'm even saying my Instagram. It's so weird. M underscore costing.

589
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 3: Can we follow each other?

590
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 5: You'll have to teach you how to do that.

591
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: I'll teach you.

592
00:31:48,440 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 4: All right, We'll take a break and be right back. Okay, Mark,

593
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 4: you're still.

594
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 6: With us, still here, ready to go?

595
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, any questions.

596
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 6: I have a lot of questions, and these are some

597
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 6: questions that you might not want to answer, and that

598
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 6: is totally I totally respect that. I always have you

599
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 6: guys have never given me parameters, and I love that

600
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 6: about you. And I don't remember you ever telling me

601
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 6: to take a question out of the show.

602
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 5: But I'll do it.

603
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 6: Whatever you guys tell me to do, I'll do it.

604
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 6: First of all, well, you're working in health insurance. You're

605
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 6: working is there. I'm sure if you had the ability

606
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 6: to take an erase or to google you would. Do

607
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 6: you find that that follows you around, like you interviewed

608
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 6: for a job and they say, oh, you're that Michael Cousin.

609
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 6: And if you found that notoriety a negative or maybe

610
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 6: even a positive.

611
00:32:55,360 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 5: That's a really great question because that was a huge

612
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 5: concern when I started to look for work that first

613
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 5: year twenty twenty one. I just took time for myself.

614
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 5: I was like, I'm either with the kids or I'm traveling,

615
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 5: I'm doing stuff. I'm just away. Then I did some

616
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 5: stuff with a buddy with the startup company, and then

617
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 5: you know, I've been insurance for a while now, and

618
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 5: it was there. And admittedly there have been moments where,

619
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 5: you know, people always think everything's a scam, right, And

620
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 5: so whether I call somebody who I've is a lead

621
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 5: that comes across my desk and I get their information,

622
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 5: I call them and maybe I see that they looked

623
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 5: at my LinkedIn because they think I'm not real or

624
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 5: they look at whatever in my fear because then if

625
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 5: that person's like, oh, we're going in a different direction

626
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 5: and they don't give me a reason why. Now, this

627
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 5: has only happened like once one time in the insurance

628
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 5: where that I can really remember where I was worried.

629
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 5: I was like, you know what, I bet this guy

630
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 5: looked at my information. If he looked at my LinkedIn,

631
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 5: he probably googled me. And I was like, oh, I

632
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 5: don't want to work with this guy. And so that

633
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 5: has there have been moments where that's come up where

634
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 5: my insecurity around it has affected my confidence to a degree.

635
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 5: Now those moments are few and far between, especially now

636
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 5: they but it still exists and that's just part of

637
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 5: my story. Now. If anyone had the balls to even

638
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 5: to bring it up to me, I to welcome that conversation.

639
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 4: And I think too not to interject with this question.

640
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 4: This is something that I really wanted to get across

641
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 4: too with us is especially with like the book coming out.

642
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 4: I wanted him to know that they might grab a

643
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,280
Speaker 4: few of the stories, right. But why I also wanted

644
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 4: him on this week was important because I don't want

645
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 4: that to be the story. I want how far we've come,

646
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 4: and I've you know, you've you shared with me a

647
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 4: story about someone that you were potentially going on a

648
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 4: few dates with. The very last thing that I would want,

649
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 4: because I don't have a pretty past and background, and

650
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 4: I have people that still say, oh, well you a

651
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 4: couple of years ago, or you were this, or you

652
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 4: were that. I don't want to ever be defined by

653
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 4: a headline because I know that I've changed and I've grown,

654
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 4: and I've I'm a different version of myself than I

655
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 4: was from my twenties to two years ago, and so

656
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 4: that's not fair for my ex to have that same

657
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 4: always headline or that for people to go back to now.

658
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 4: A lot of times, yes I always have to defend

659
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 4: the marriages, and I have to defend yes I was controlling,

660
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 4: and yes I was manipulative and like. But now it's

661
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 4: not so much defending. It's just my past and I'm

662
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 4: not that person anymore. And I think that's where he's

663
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 4: kind of gotten to too, where it's now just your past.

664
00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 4: But it's not an easy thing to have to have

665
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 4: on a Google search for both of us from our past,

666
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,319
Speaker 4: and that's where I just I wanted to in a

667
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 4: way because of where we're at now. Protect the fact

668
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 4: that you don't deserve to be defined by your past,

669
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 4: nor does anybody, nor does Rachel. You Gutell from being

670
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 4: Tiger was this mister, Like, you know, people should not

671
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 4: be defined by mistakes that they've made in their past.

672
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 5: For sure, And I appreciate that. And I think you

673
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 5: know that when you feel that professionally versus personally, because

674
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,919
Speaker 5: I've anyone that I've dated or or had some time

675
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 5: spent some time with in a romantic way. That's one

676
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 5: of the first things I bring up where I'm like,

677
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 5: what questions do you have? I'm like, look, you obviously

678
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 5: know something. If you don't, then you will, you will. Yeah,

679
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 5: where I just nip it in the butt. I'm just like, hey,

680
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 5: what questions do you have? And whatever question they have,

681
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 5: I answered, like just openly and honestly, because if it

682
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,839
Speaker 5: is someone that's going to judge you forward or hold

683
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 5: it against you, especially in a personal relationship, and I'm like, okay,

684
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 5: you're not. You don't need to be a part of

685
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 5: my life. So that's been that's been a simpler part.

686
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 5: It's definitely been you know what Mark's say in terms

687
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 5: of like work has been the only area that I

688
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 5: still have maybe some insecurity around it. And you know,

689
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 5: with the book, I remember Janna even asked me Mark

690
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 5: before I.

691
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,240
Speaker 4: Hated that conversation would be more than anything. I remember

692
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 4: it was at the soccer field and I hated it.

693
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 4: I hated every second and it happen that conversation with them.

694
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 5: What about you writing the book?

695
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 3: Well, the thing was was.

696
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 4: After our book deal went away, right, I obviously asked

697
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 4: for another deal. And you would have hated the first.

698
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 5: Version, Oh for sure. If this book was written in

699
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 5: twenty one, well it was, it was, it was published

700
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 5: in twenty one.

701
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 3: If it was published in twenty one, and it had

702
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 3: been a different.

703
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 5: Story, a whole different story.

704
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 4: And through again realizing that it's not about him or

705
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,320
Speaker 4: there or another X or this X. It's all about

706
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 4: looking in the mirror and realizing my patterns and the

707
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 4: things that I had to work on. And even so

708
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 4: some of the stories I'm like, damn it, like I

709
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 4: don't want that to be want that to ruin this,

710
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 4: And so I've really tried to. I skimmed it down

711
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 4: as much as I could to respect where we're at

712
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 4: relationally and our new what I've been saying kind of

713
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 4: in interviews, is we have a new relationship. Our marriage died,

714
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 4: but we have now formed a new relationship, and it's

715
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 4: just this is a better relationship, but we have more,

716
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 4: we have a Yes, it's a new relationship. And so

717
00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 4: I when we when I finally agreed that, Okay, I'm

718
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,280
Speaker 4: going through this book and this is happening. I remember

719
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,879
Speaker 4: seeing at the soccer fields and we were talking and

720
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 4: I said, and I got a book coming out, And

721
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 4: I just tried to because I just I didn't because

722
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 4: I'm like, god, we were so good, because we were

723
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 4: so bad post divorce for a good year at plus

724
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:22,280
Speaker 4: so we got to a good place.

725
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,280
Speaker 3: And I'm like, I don't want to. I don't want

726
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 3: I don't want that energy again.

727
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, And even since you first told me that you're

728
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 5: writing a book or that a book was coming out,

729
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 5: I was skeptical. But even since then, which was probably

730
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 5: what last fall, like a year ago that you first

731
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,439
Speaker 5: told me, things have evolved so much from last Fall

732
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 5: to this fall or even you know, Jenne asked me

733
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 5: now that it's published and stuff, She's like, you know,

734
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 5: before it comes out, do you want to read it?

735
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 5: And I told her. I was like, no, because I

736
00:39:55,800 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 5: trust I trust our relationship more now than I ever have,

737
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 5: and I believe Janna. What her point in her narrative

738
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 5: is is if I read it, is there are there

739
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 5: things that would bother me? Absolutely sure? Right, we all

740
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 5: know there's three versions of the truth. Mine her is

741
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 5: in the truth, right, so are they?

742
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 6: Even the acknowledged truth might bother you because you're not

743
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 6: in that place.

744
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 3: You're not going to love the launder room scene.

745
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,720
Speaker 5: Right, And I don't you know, I don't even remember

746
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 5: what that.

747
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 3: Is exactly because we were so just right, Yeah, it.

748
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 5: Was a whole different lifetime almost ago. And so for me,

749
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 5: I was like, because I thought about I was like,

750
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 5: why read it and then rehash in my own work

751
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 5: and journey rehash some of these things emotionally and internally

752
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 5: and feel any kind of way towards Janne where it's like,

753
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 5: I'm again, I trust her, I know where her heart is,

754
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 5: and anything in there I know doesn't necessarily directly have

755
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 5: to do with me more. It's just her story, right,

756
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 5: And unfortunately the tabloids or the publications or whoever is

757
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 5: going to still write stuff about this might try to

758
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 5: attach me to this, but it has nothing to do

759
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 5: with me, and I trust that now. If she had

760
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 5: published it two years ago, that'd have been a different story.

761
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 5: But I just I don't care. I support her, I'm

762
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 5: proud of her, I'm happy for her. But whatever it

763
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 5: says about in regards to maybe referring to our marriage,

764
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 5: it is what it is. There's no point in me

765
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,720
Speaker 5: occupying time in my heart with it.

766
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 4: Is there anything that you'd want because you've never actually

767
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 4: had like a statement. Is there anything you'd want to

768
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 4: say that like?

769
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 3: Is your.

770
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 5: Not really, because I've kind of prided myself on not

771
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 5: saying anything at any point and just allowing time to

772
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 5: take care of this. Now, with that said, I'll just

773
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 5: say how grateful and appreciative I am of our situation now,

774
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 5: because if it weren't for both of us, we wouldn't

775
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 5: be here in this moment. How well we coparent, how

776
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 5: much we how much love we have for one another,

777
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,320
Speaker 5: and how much respect we clearly have for one another

778
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 5: now compared to before. And we all know everyone listening, Mark,

779
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 5: you know, we both know many married couples or divorced

780
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 5: couples that are just miserable that it is just supervised

781
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 5: drop offs or like court things or this or that,

782
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 5: and it's just it really has made me appreciate you

783
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 5: and our situation tremendously because it could be so, so worse.

784
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,240
Speaker 6: And it's good that you know in twenty three, putting

785
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 6: this book out in twenty three, you know the spirit

786
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 6: is coming from, you know the relationship you have, you

787
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 6: know where her mindset is. Two years ago, it would

788
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 6: have been more of a venomous situation, correct of how

789
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 6: war was still going on. But also I'll also say this,

790
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,320
Speaker 6: I have many regrets in my life, my relationships, my parenting,

791
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 6: whatever it is. We've talked about them on here. If

792
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 6: I had to read a book about my regrets that

793
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 6: I have, the times in my life that I wish

794
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 6: I'd done differently, I mean, nobody would want to read

795
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 6: that book. So I understand that even if it is

796
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 6: one hundred percent accurate what is being described, I still

797
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:46,760
Speaker 6: want no part of it because I'm not there anymore.

798
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 6: And I hated the way I behaved in that situation.

799
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 6: Whatever it is you brought up dating so and the

800
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 6: Google world following you around and all that stuff, and

801
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 6: the questions that they're allowed to ask ask you. I wonder,

802
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 6: how are you seeing anyone right now? Can I ask that?

803
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:06,879
Speaker 5: Yeah, I am seeing someone right now?

804
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 6: Is trust an issue there? I mean it's I think

805
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 6: the infidelity.

806
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 3: What happened, Oh, things change, things evolved, Okay, news.

807
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 5: It go ahead. Mark.

808
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 6: Well, I'm just saying the infidelity is going to come

809
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 6: up anything she knows anything about you publicly, it's going

810
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:29,760
Speaker 6: to be that she can ask you all the questions

811
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 6: she wants. But I feel like she's going to have

812
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 6: that in the back of her mind. And is that

813
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 6: going to be a problem. How do you address that?

814
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 6: How do you establish that we're starting fresh, this is

815
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 6: a new situation. I'm going to earn that trust.

816
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 5: It's not even about me earning the trust because people

817
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 5: that I've dated, I've had, you know, a couple relationships

818
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 5: and people I've seen over the last couple of years.

819
00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 5: And for me, I've been very upfront again, like I

820
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 5: said earlier, like if you have any questions, asked now, right,

821
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 5: let's clear all this out so you don't then moving forward.

822
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 5: It's look, just because of my past is known, doesn't

823
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 5: give you the right to not trust me, right, That's

824
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 5: not fair And I won't be in something that I'm

825
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 5: not trusted now, I'm not naive and saying that I

826
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 5: have a clean slate compared to maybe someone that you

827
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 5: don't know everything about. So I'm understanding of that. But

828
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 5: all I asked is like, Hey, if you have something

829
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 5: come up with you, come talk to me. Don't be

830
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 5: passive with me, don't say little comments, don't make little hints.

831
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 5: I can't read your mind. If something is going on,

832
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 5: tell me so we can talk about it. And so

833
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 5: those moments you know have come up in relationships and everything,

834
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 5: and that's fine, but it's I don't have a big

835
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 5: tolerance for being things being said in a way that

836
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 5: I can tell they don't trust me. Where I'm just like, okay, Like,

837
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 5: if you're going to be like this already, I see

838
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 5: where this is going. I've been down this road. I've

839
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 5: done nothing to give you, specifically, any reason not to

840
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,720
Speaker 5: trust me. So let's just call a spade a spade

841
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,399
Speaker 5: and we'll end it here. So that's one thing I've

842
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:43,359
Speaker 5: been very very forthright with and on the front end

843
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 5: of things with anyone that I've seen or dated, is

844
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 5: you're going to know where we stand. And I don't

845
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 5: really have a big tolerance for this passive aggressiveness alluding

846
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 5: to things, just come out and say it, And I

847
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 5: just can't be in something where I'm not trusted if.

848
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 6: I didn't, I think the best way to get that

849
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 6: clean slate and correct me if I'm wrong is to

850
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 6: point to the treatment you've been through for your addiction issues.

851
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 6: I feel like that's one way of establishing Look, that

852
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 6: was me, then, this is what I've been through since,

853
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 6: this is who I am now. Do you feel like

854
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,359
Speaker 6: that is completely behind you? Do you feel like you're

855
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 6: not not cured? But do you feel like the treatment

856
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 6: has put you in a good place to be a

857
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 6: good partner and to be a better person.

858
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, for sure. And that's a question that's come up,

859
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 5: especially in the earlier phases of all of this, when

860
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 5: things were a lot more prevalent. Is sex auted questions,

861
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 5: sex addiction questions. And what I'll tell people is like,

862
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 5: do I believe it's a thing? Absolutely? I know it

863
00:47:57,760 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 5: to be. I know too many guys are still very

864
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:01,879
Speaker 5: You're close with guys that I was in program with.

865
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 5: For me personally, what I experienced once Jana and I

866
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 5: got divorced, if you would have told me before her

867
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 5: and I got divorced. Hey, Mike, you're going to be

868
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 5: divorced in three months. What do you think you're going

869
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 5: to do. In all honesty, I've been like, I'm in

870
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 5: the streets, I'm doing everything and everything I want to do.

871
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 5: I'm having fun. For the first two months, I didn't

872
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 5: do anything right. I didn't go out, I didn't sleep

873
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 5: with anybody. I wasn't even we talked about here watching

874
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 5: porn like nothing. And that time because I didn't want

875
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 5: to emotionally run back to things that I would in

876
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 5: the past, where like whether it's stuff with Jana and

877
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:58,880
Speaker 5: I or even before Jana or whatever, where it's it's like,

878
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:00,919
Speaker 5: all right, i'm feeling sort of some sort of way,

879
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 5: I'm out, I got to check out, let me go

880
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 5: sleep with somebody, let me go watch for and let

881
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 5: me eat whatever, right, because that was my thing. And

882
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,720
Speaker 5: so that like two months span was the first time

883
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 5: where I was just like, I don't need I'm feeling

884
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 5: all of these feelings, but I don't need this. And

885
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 5: so it was it was a whole evolution and kind

886
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 5: of learning process for me. And it wasn't like a

887
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 5: thing that I just made a decision for myself it's like, Oh,

888
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 5: I'm to your point where I'm cured. I'm no longer

889
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:36,880
Speaker 5: no longer going to twelve step meetings, I'm you know whatever.

890
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,799
Speaker 5: It was through consultation with my then sponsor, is, through

891
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 5: consultation with my therapist, and just an ongoing process of

892
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:49,240
Speaker 5: talking about things where for the first time, I wasn't

893
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:53,879
Speaker 5: like lying to myself right, I wasn't trying to sit

894
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 5: here and overcompensate to like prove something to Janna or

895
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 5: make my self look better than I was because of

896
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:06,399
Speaker 5: things in our marriage or relationship, or my own shame

897
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 5: or insecurity or whatever it was. It was just me

898
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 5: living with me, accepting my life at that point and

899
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 5: just understanding it's like the first time, I'm not running

900
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 5: to something else to fix this.

901
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:31,439
Speaker 6: In treatment, were you able to get to the route?

902
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 6: Do you think of where this comes from? Because I

903
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 6: feel like that's when I've looked at the problematic behavior

904
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 6: from my past, it's really helped me to get to

905
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:44,399
Speaker 6: the why of it. And you don't need to get

906
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:45,799
Speaker 6: into the why. But do you feel like you were

907
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 6: able to figure out the why and the root?

908
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 5: Yeah? I think once because towards the end, you know,

909
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 5: I just wanted to blame everything on Janna unfairly, right,

910
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 5: turfault if you didn't keep getting on me. You know,

911
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 5: I'll be fine if you didn't do this, if you

912
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 5: didn't do that, because that was just the place that

913
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 5: I was at where now I could just yeah and

914
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 5: treat me. And through all the years I learned more

915
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 5: of kind of a root of things, and I was

916
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 5: able to just kind of sit with that and accept it.

917
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 5: And then I was like, well, I don't have this

918
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 5: thing right in front of me to blame. It was

919
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 5: like I used Janna as like my scapegoat to blame

920
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 5: it all on her. Well, if I blame it on her,

921
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 5: it's not my fault. Well that's bullshit. So yeah, I

922
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 5: think it was just that time afterwards, just I was

923
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 5: able to focus more on just that original root of

924
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 5: things and just kind of live there and deal with it.

925
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:44,440
Speaker 3: I've never heard you say that, I do appreciate that

926
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 3: for the girl that.

927
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,320
Speaker 4: Blames herself or doesn't feel good enough, what would you

928
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 4: say to that person if she's having someone that has

929
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:59,400
Speaker 4: continuously cheated on her, that carries that it was my fault, Like,

930
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,600
Speaker 4: you know, is my fault that now they're all healthy

931
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:03,959
Speaker 4: and moved on, and.

932
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 5: It has nothing to do with you. It has everything

933
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 5: to do with that person because like in us, it

934
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 5: had everything to do with me, just like you can

935
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 5: take it back to what we were talking about earlier.

936
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,760
Speaker 5: Was this podcast an issue because we talked about things

937
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 5: and all of that. Sure, again, do those things affect it? Yes,

938
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 5: maybe we're certain ways that Jana was towards me or

939
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 5: things that she said or did. Did it affect me? Yes, well,

940
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 5: I'm a human. It affected me emotionally, but that's not

941
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 5: why I made the terrible decisions that I made. It

942
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,800
Speaker 5: was because of me. Period.

943
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:45,800
Speaker 6: I feel like that's narcissism in a lot of ways.

944
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 6: That's the definition of that. Like I can do whatever

945
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 6: I want, whenever I want, I'll never pay a price

946
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 6: for it, and if I do pay a price for it,

947
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:56,239
Speaker 6: it's someone else's.

948
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:56,720
Speaker 5: Fault for sure.

949
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think a lot of us have been down there,

950
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 6: whether we want to admit that or not.

951
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 5: Absolutely.

952
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 6: We talked about two different ways. This is going to

953
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:08,439
Speaker 6: follow you around, and this is a question for both

954
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 6: of you. The employment relationships, the kids. The kids are

955
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 6: seven and four, They're not always going to be seven

956
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 6: and four. They're going to be on the internet. They're

957
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:21,320
Speaker 6: going to find out this stuff that they don't already

958
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 6: know about. How are you going to deal with that,

959
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:26,400
Speaker 6: both of you? Because honestly, Jenny, you brought it up earlier,

960
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:28,239
Speaker 6: the stuff in your past that you're not so proud of.

961
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 6: Mike's got these issues, the issues with the both of you.

962
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 6: I think that's going to be some tough conversation someday.

963
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 6: Are you going to try to nip that in the

964
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 6: bud before they find it themselves or are you just

965
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 6: going to address it when their friends bring it up?

966
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:42,359
Speaker 6: You know, I think that's going to follow you around

967
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 6: in that way as well.

968
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 4: I think something incorrects me if I'm wrong, But I

969
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 4: think something where we've always kind of said that we

970
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,880
Speaker 4: would This is when we were still married, but we

971
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 4: said that we would sit them down before and be like,

972
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:56,879
Speaker 4: well look at us now. And I think it's kind

973
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 4: of the same thing where it's so look at us now.

974
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 4: Something has happened in our past. Mommy and Daddy had

975
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 4: some you know, hard times, but we're such good friends

976
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:10,319
Speaker 4: now and we can all do things together and just

977
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 4: manage it on the front end, right.

978
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't I don't think that's changed changed for

979
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:23,920
Speaker 5: me at all. My whole goal, Like even if you

980
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 5: take the last two and a half years, the driving

981
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 5: force of me not saying anything was was the kids.

982
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:38,640
Speaker 5: I was like, I don't want for me, I don't

983
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 5: want my kids to from this point on to see

984
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 5: me say anything negative about their mother, right, and and

985
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 5: that that was my motivating force every single day. And

986
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 5: now it's the same thing it were like when Jane

987
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 5: save when we're married, it's the same where there by

988
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:07,360
Speaker 5: the time we were fortunate that they were young enough

989
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:13,759
Speaker 5: during like the heat of all of our past, where

990
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,239
Speaker 5: by the time they get of age, they're going to

991
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 5: know us as mom and dad, like in the capacity

992
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 5: that we are now, where.

993
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 4: Jace doesn't even remember you living. Like the other day

994
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 4: I was watching a video and he's like, why was

995
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:31,959
Speaker 4: Daddy here? And I was like, that was our house maybe,

996
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 4: And I was like, oh my gosh, it doesn't even

997
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 4: remember that we lived in the same home together.

998
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, so little, yeah, they're not going to know any e.

999
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:43,400
Speaker 5: J Olia will know a little bit of a difference,

1000
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 5: but even I mean so yeah, I don't even know

1001
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:48,719
Speaker 5: how to answer that. Mark. I just think when the

1002
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:49,840
Speaker 5: time comes, we'll know.

1003
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 3: But we've learned to love our kids more than hate

1004
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 3: each other. Right, we just continue that.

1005
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:58,719
Speaker 5: We love them so much that we're pretty confident that

1006
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:01,400
Speaker 5: when that day and never comes, that it's not going

1007
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 5: to be as big of a deal as maybe we

1008
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 5: thought it would be.

1009
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:08,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, and well, you know, we'll talk about co parenting

1010
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 4: and some things that we've done later on in the

1011
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 4: next in the next next.

1012
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:16,920
Speaker 6: Oh, good tease, And maybe there's a teachable moment there.

1013
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 6: You know, there's a you're going to make mistakes in life.

1014
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 6: You need to own up to them. You know, there's

1015
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:26,439
Speaker 6: no one's perfect. You see your parents as perfect. When

1016
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 6: they realize they're not perfect, there's a lesson that we

1017
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:30,759
Speaker 6: learned there. I think they don't have to be either,

1018
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:32,319
Speaker 6: and when they make a mistake, they can live up

1019
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:44,719
Speaker 6: to it. All right, Yeah, okay, one more. When you

1020
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 6: look back at your marriage, Harry goes, is it you

1021
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 6: know it didn't work out? Or is it I we

1022
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 6: had a good thing and I f that up? Or

1023
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 6: is it I f that up? But I've I've improved myself.

1024
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 6: I've worked on myself and I'm in a better place now.

1025
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:08,239
Speaker 6: When you look back at your marriage. How do you

1026
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 6: see it?

1027
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 5: Right? I look at it and maybe this is just

1028
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 5: for my own like processing, so I don't live in

1029
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 5: the past, but I look at it as you know what,

1030
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:38,080
Speaker 5: we didn't work out for a multitude of reasons, right,

1031
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:42,439
Speaker 5: majority that I'll take blame for, you know, I'll fall

1032
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:44,080
Speaker 5: on that sword, I'll die in that hill that I

1033
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:50,920
Speaker 5: you know, I I've owned my stuff. But ultimately we

1034
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 5: just we weren't going to work out. And I think

1035
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:03,080
Speaker 5: because of the relationship and respect and really blossoming friendship

1036
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 5: that Jane and I are able to have now confirms

1037
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:12,919
Speaker 5: that for me where it's like, okay, part of why

1038
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 5: we're able to be where we're at now is because

1039
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:18,360
Speaker 5: we're just like, you know what, at least again, for me,

1040
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:19,720
Speaker 5: it wasn't going to work out.

1041
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 6: Is it fair to say there was a toxicity with

1042
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 6: you two, regardless of infidelity? At times.

1043
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:34,800
Speaker 4: It's hard and I write about this in the book,

1044
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 4: that we didn't really get to have anything but the

1045
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:43,960
Speaker 4: like For example, in the book, my therapist is like,

1046
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:45,959
Speaker 4: let's be honest, take away the cheating. You didn't really

1047
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 4: like them, And I'm like, wait, what She's like, there

1048
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 4: were so many other things that he didn't meet your

1049
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 4: needs and you weren't meeting his needs. But the cheating

1050
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 4: was always the reason for well, why I acted this

1051
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:03,520
Speaker 4: way and why you acted that way, And so we

1052
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:07,560
Speaker 4: didn't really get to have a true we didn't really

1053
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 4: get to see what our marriage could have looked like

1054
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 4: really without the infidelity, because it played apart from the

1055
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 4: get yeah, And I think that piece is where I

1056
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 4: just kind of go, I'll never know what it would

1057
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:25,720
Speaker 4: have looked like because I think that toxicity came in

1058
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 4: with the distrust and the resentments on both sides, and

1059
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:33,280
Speaker 4: you know, it's.

1060
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 3: Hard to hear.

1061
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:39,640
Speaker 4: Even being to super truthful, just like that's just what

1062
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 4: it was going to be. And it's like I hate

1063
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 4: that because I wish that, you know, it could have been.

1064
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 4: There's so many years of so much just yeah, the

1065
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:56,600
Speaker 4: toxicity and the fighting and the stress and all the

1066
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:58,400
Speaker 4: I mean, there's just so many years of that. It's like,

1067
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 4: I wish you had it just if you knew that

1068
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 4: let it go. But we didn't know that in the moment, right,

1069
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 4: So we were both trying to like fight for it.

1070
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 4: So it's we weren't given it. I don't think an

1071
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 4: ample chance to have no for a marriage.

1072
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:14,640
Speaker 5: No, And that's where you can play the what if

1073
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 5: game all day. And that's where I'm just like the

1074
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 5: fact because I can't. Yeah, I have nothing to go

1075
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:24,560
Speaker 5: back on it and to be like, well if this

1076
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:27,800
Speaker 5: didn't happen, There's just so much at this point. It's

1077
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 5: like it's an emotional mental impossibility to put ourselves in

1078
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:36,880
Speaker 5: a situation without all of the things that come with it.

1079
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:37,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1080
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 6: Last question, is Jenny getting married too soon? Oh?

1081
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 5: What a good question. Why are people saying that?

1082
01:00:58,280 --> 01:00:59,960
Speaker 6: I mean, I said that was your first told.

1083
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 4: When I told him, he's like, oh, for fun, He's

1084
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:04,960
Speaker 4: like he like came off the zoom.

1085
01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 3: He's like, chan on. I was like, I know, I know.

1086
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:14,920
Speaker 5: Here's what I'll say again, I know Jana better than

1087
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:19,800
Speaker 5: pretty much anybody. I know. Jana loves love or loves love.

1088
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:30,760
Speaker 5: On paper, is it too soon? Sure, whatever, But I

1089
01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:45,880
Speaker 5: love Alan a lot, like the utmost respect for him,

1090
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:52,800
Speaker 5: and so it's no one else is able to experience

1091
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:56,320
Speaker 5: or witness what I am able to write. So yeah,

1092
01:01:56,360 --> 01:01:58,040
Speaker 5: on paper, people would be like, yeah, it's too soon.

1093
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:04,640
Speaker 5: But from the moment I met Alan, you know, everything

1094
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:13,360
Speaker 5: has just been respectful understanding and I see why. And

1095
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 5: I was teasing Jana at soccer the other day because

1096
01:02:15,520 --> 01:02:16,640
Speaker 5: I was like, Hey, Jana, how does that make you

1097
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:19,840
Speaker 5: feel You're not the prettiest in the relationship anymore? Because

1098
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:26,960
Speaker 5: that guy is handsome? Okay? But no, I just I

1099
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:34,480
Speaker 5: see the fact that talking about Alan is what's making

1100
01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:40,680
Speaker 5: me emotional right now. It's just it's really hilarious, but

1101
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:46,080
Speaker 5: it's it's literally what I you know, two and a

1102
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:49,360
Speaker 5: half years ago when we got divorced, what I would

1103
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:55,920
Speaker 5: hope this could become is coming to fruition because ultimately

1104
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:57,720
Speaker 5: I knew Jana was going to find someone before me.

1105
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:05,000
Speaker 5: I just knew, and this is what I imagined it

1106
01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 5: could be like, and it's actually being that where everybody

1107
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:13,680
Speaker 5: is winning, everybody wins. Jana has a man that is

1108
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:19,440
Speaker 5: incredible and loving and respectful and truthful from all intents

1109
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:23,720
Speaker 5: and purposes that I've seen that I've experienced, right, so

1110
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:27,360
Speaker 5: she has what she's looking for. I have someone that

1111
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:30,280
Speaker 5: I can trust around my kids, that I see taking

1112
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:33,520
Speaker 5: really good care of the mother of my children, which

1113
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:36,760
Speaker 5: is all I care about as their father. And then

1114
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:42,720
Speaker 5: it's someone who also accepts the relationship of all of

1115
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:47,200
Speaker 5: us because he's divorced himself and he understands and so

1116
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:51,480
Speaker 5: he's been through that. And so it's the fact that

1117
01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 5: I can feel as welcome in their home as I do,

1118
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:59,720
Speaker 5: where I can just walk into their house. It's a

1119
01:03:59,720 --> 01:04:02,120
Speaker 5: little things like that. I'm like, that doesn't go overlooked

1120
01:04:02,120 --> 01:04:05,640
Speaker 5: for me, because he would have every right to be, like, hey, Jana, Like,

1121
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 5: I'm not comfortable with Mike hanging around after he drops

1122
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:11,640
Speaker 5: off the kids, where the three of us will sit

1123
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:13,840
Speaker 5: there and just kind of talk in the kitchen. I'm

1124
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:16,920
Speaker 5: not comfortable with Mike, you know whatever. He would be

1125
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:21,880
Speaker 5: in his right to do that, but it's not that way.

1126
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:27,800
Speaker 5: It's a very uniform thing, and so and so for

1127
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 5: that reason, I personally don't think it's too soon because

1128
01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:35,720
Speaker 5: I see them and it makes me happy that Jana

1129
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:38,480
Speaker 5: has that and that my kids have that.

1130
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:43,360
Speaker 6: It's a really happy ending through a difficult story. Thank

1131
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:45,640
Speaker 6: you guys for having me on. It's great to see you.

1132
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:47,760
Speaker 5: Mike. You too great to be on the show.

1133
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:48,360
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1134
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:51,200
Speaker 4: I could do this all day, all right, Well, thank you,

1135
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:53,960
Speaker 4: Well maybe we'll we'll do some more later on in

1136
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 4: the near future. But thank you Mark for coming on.

1137
01:04:57,200 --> 01:05:00,880
Speaker 4: And we're gonna do a part tow you coming up.

1138
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:05,400
Speaker 4: Next episode will be the Girls.

1139
01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 3: Let's stay tuned

1140
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:16,000
Speaker 5: M hm.