Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with
Speaker 1: Me your Girl Danielle Moody recording from the Home Bunker. Folks,
Speaker 1: I am very excited to welcome back on this episode
Speaker 1: of wok F friend of Mine and friend of the show,
Speaker 1: Amara Jones, to talk about a myriad of issues, particularly
Speaker 1: those that are affecting the black trans community, the black
Speaker 1: queer community, and the queer community at large. What does
Speaker 1: it mean to watch as headline after headline goes on
Speaker 1: the attack on your very sense of being when what
Speaker 1: you're reading isn't about some other group or some other place,
Speaker 1: It is about elected officials deciding that you shouldn't exist
Speaker 1: right and that you should be ashamed of your existence,
Speaker 1: or that your very existence should be criminalized. And you know,
Speaker 1: while this summer has been wild in so many different
Speaker 1: fucking ways, with a former twice impeached, you know, rapist
Speaker 1: president being indicted four times on ninety one charges, we
Speaker 1: have also seen a rise in an uptick in violence
Speaker 1: against the queer community. We have seen an uptick in
Speaker 1: racial violence, and it's all stemming from the same poison tree,
Speaker 1: the Republican White Supremacist Party. And so what does it
Speaker 1: mean that when those within the black community align themselves,
Speaker 1: whether knowingly or unknowingly, with the same talking points in
Speaker 1: rhetoric that were used to subjugate them against the trans community,
Speaker 1: against the black transwoman community. So we get into a
Speaker 1: myriad of conversations about so much in this jam packed
Speaker 1: episode with Amara Jones. Folks, I am so happy to
Speaker 1: welcome back to WOKF After God, it feels like a
Speaker 1: very long time CEO of Translash Media, Amara Jones, and
Speaker 1: the host of the Webby Award honored Translash podcast and
Speaker 1: a time one hundred honoree I mean, and documentarian and activist.
Speaker 1: I mean, the list can go on, Amar, How are you?
Speaker 1: It has been a really challenging summer. I would say,
Speaker 1: let me use that word for the black queer community.
Speaker 1: There have been some really high notes, there have been
Speaker 1: some really low notes. So just to start out, how
Speaker 1: are you doing?
Speaker 2: I mean, luckily, just be honest. Luckily, for a lot
Speaker 2: of the a lot of July, I was gone. I
Speaker 2: was gone both for work and I was on vacation.
Speaker 2: So that was when there was you know, a lot
Speaker 2: of intense conversations. We're being polite here about black queer
Speaker 2: people coming from black sis people. So I honestly think
Speaker 2: that that helped my frame of mind and helped me
Speaker 2: to be perfectly honest to not be in the center
Speaker 2: of that hurricane, even though I was keenly aware of
Speaker 2: what was happening and how it was unfolding. I feel
Speaker 2: like I need to take a nap, but I feel
Speaker 2: like it's not going to not going to happen because
Speaker 2: I keep getting interrupted by everything that we're all being
Speaker 2: interrupted by and more. And so I'm just trying to
Speaker 2: find small ways to get through what is going to
Speaker 2: be a very intense next you know, sixteen months. You know,
Speaker 2: there's not going to be a let up I think
Speaker 2: for a while, and so I am just trying to
Speaker 2: get my mind around that and to figure out ways
Speaker 2: of small ways that I can try to preserve myself
Speaker 2: in the middle of it, because that's going to be
Speaker 2: kind of the key and the solution.
Speaker 1: I one thousand percent agree. I talk a lot on
Speaker 1: WOKF about self care. I talk a lot about centering joy.
Speaker 1: I talk about, you know, centering it every single day
Speaker 1: and doing these small things that allow people to feel
Speaker 1: like they are not losing their minds, to feel like
Speaker 1: there is still hopefulness in you know, in the world.
Speaker 1: And it's hard when you're paying attention to the headlines
Speaker 1: every single day. It's even harder when your life is
Speaker 1: actually a part of those headlines. It's not just something
Speaker 1: that you're reading, it's something that you're living. And so
Speaker 1: I do want to talk to you first about uh
Speaker 1: the comedian and I'll put that in air quotes jefs Hilarious,
Speaker 1: a black sis woman who took it upon herself to
Speaker 1: engage in a conversation she is not educated for or
Speaker 1: should be in, about black womanhood and how she feels
Speaker 1: like it is being quote stolen by black trans women
Speaker 1: and that she, as a sist black woman, was somehow
Speaker 1: making herself the gatekeeper for black womanhood. And I wanted
Speaker 1: to get to your thoughts and reaction because I got
Speaker 1: to tell you, I had to walk myself out of
Speaker 1: those comment sections because the people agreeing with her hateful
Speaker 1: rhetoric are the very same people who have called this
Speaker 1: woman outside of her name for her for her own
Speaker 1: looks and have used right in like, used the idea
Speaker 1: of masculinity as a way to insult her. And it's
Speaker 1: just it is a wild circus. It was a wild circus,
Speaker 1: so I had to walk myself out of that. But
Speaker 1: what did you make of this back and forth that
Speaker 1: we saw?
Speaker 2: Just not hilarious? You mean, I thought it was incredibly sad,
Speaker 2: and I thought, just on a personal note, what's sad
Speaker 2: is that this is a person who is lost, and
Speaker 2: I think that everyone who was joining in are equally lost.
Speaker 2: In three kind of ways that stick out to me.
Speaker 2: I think the first way is that just Hilarious is
Speaker 2: clearly not aware that what she was doing was essentially
Speaker 2: parroting talking points that were written I'm sorry, the parenting
Speaker 2: talking points that were written by white supremacist as a
Speaker 2: part of a campaign to flood the airwaves with anti
Speaker 2: trans disinformation such to the point that it would seem
Speaker 2: natural and people would take it upon themselves to repeat
Speaker 2: those same views, therefore turning themselves into an agent of
Speaker 2: white supremacy and patriarchy. So that's one thing that I
Speaker 2: didn't understand, because what she says is exactly what they say,
Speaker 2: and they've said it longer than she said it, So
Speaker 2: that's where it comes from. The Second thing that I
Speaker 2: felt really sad about is this is a person that
Speaker 2: doesn't fully understand the way her or other, as she
Speaker 2: would say, since women's bodies like her function. I mean,
Speaker 2: there are so many people who lose their periods at
Speaker 2: a certain age, who have a kid and the periods
Speaker 2: don't come back, who have an accident. Are they not women?
Speaker 2: Like it just doesn't make any sense, Like it literally
Speaker 2: doesn't make what she was saying, even if you were
Speaker 2: applying it to the people that she thought that she
Speaker 2: was talking about, it doesn't make any sense, like it
Speaker 2: literally is nonsensical. Means you don't understand fundamentally how your
Speaker 2: own body works or could work. And that made me
Speaker 2: really sad. And that's true because we know that that's
Speaker 2: that's the way that people are have been miseducated about themselves.
Speaker 2: I think the third way that it was really sad
Speaker 2: is that she clearly doesn't understand the history of black
Speaker 2: women in America. Come on, doesn't understand that in America,
Speaker 2: the entire enterprise to define womanhood was so that black
Speaker 2: women's bodies could be exploited. And so if you are
Speaker 2: getting into this conversation of about what is a woman,
Speaker 2: not what's who's not a woman, then what you're essentially
Speaker 2: doing is again extending white supremacists in patriarchal enterprise, and
Speaker 2: as I said in a post, it doesn't actually matter
Speaker 2: whose mouth that comes out of and the color of
Speaker 2: the face attached to that mouth, it's still the exact
Speaker 2: same views. And not understanding that this debate over what
Speaker 2: is a woman and who's a woman, and who can't
Speaker 2: be a woman and who can be a woman meant
Speaker 2: that black women did not achieve full womanhood in the
Speaker 2: United States until nineteen sixty five, until probably just hilarious
Speaker 2: Mom in her life technically became a woman in America.
Speaker 2: So you, by doing that is actually stimulating, recreating and
Speaker 2: extending the very arguments that were rooted in your own impression.
Speaker 2: I thought it was really sad, and I said, like,
Speaker 2: I mean, I really do believe this, and I don't
Speaker 2: say this lightly. I really do believe that. What struck
Speaker 2: me is that I was like, Oh, this is a
Speaker 2: person who's lost, and oh wow, there are a lot
Speaker 2: of other lost people. You know.
Speaker 1: What struck me is that, to your point, a person
Speaker 1: that has lost, a person that is under educated and
Speaker 1: miseducated about themselves, their own history, and is so easily
Speaker 1: then made malleable by white supremact ideology because you don't
Speaker 1: have any roots of understanding in that right, So you're
Speaker 1: just picking up the same rhetoric and louding it at
Speaker 1: other people as a way that you think it's building
Speaker 1: you up right to be better in some way, But
Speaker 1: you're standing on a pile of shit, right, And so
Speaker 1: for me, that was you know, I'm looking at this
Speaker 1: entire conversation, but what really troubled me were what I
Speaker 1: perceived to be other cis black women that were in
Speaker 1: the comments, you know, applauding her right for taking some
Speaker 1: type of stance. And I'm saying, why do we all
Speaker 1: tend to decide to operate from this place of scarcity,
Speaker 1: like in order for us to expand and think about
Speaker 1: the notion of peoplehood and womanhood and ideas around masculinity
Speaker 1: and why we were indoctrinated in certain ways that that
Speaker 1: means that somebody is taking something away from me. I
Speaker 1: really don't understand that mentality, And you see it play
Speaker 1: out everywhere. You see it play out with Ron DeSantis
Speaker 1: and Donald Trump and white grievance, Like for there to
Speaker 1: be a multiracial democracy, it must mean that you're taking
Speaker 1: something from me. If I'm a white person in America,
Speaker 1: and we just see it play out over and over again. Barbie,
Speaker 1: the movie Barbie comes out and they say, you're taking
Speaker 1: masculinity from you know, from men. No, we're having a
Speaker 1: conversation about toxic masculinity and patriarchy. But it seems like
Speaker 1: you can't do. For all the advances of mar that
Speaker 1: we seem to make in conversation right in understanding, we
Speaker 1: seem to take ten steps back. And I'm wondering how
Speaker 1: you see us in a time when the policies that
Speaker 1: are coming out, the anti trans policies that are coming out,
Speaker 1: the anti LGBTQ policies that are coming out, the anti
Speaker 1: black policies that are coming out and are being taken
Speaker 1: up across the country. What does it look like to
Speaker 1: really hold and center your own humanity in this moment,
Speaker 1: Like for us all to continue to hold and center
Speaker 1: our own humanity when we're watching the advance answers of
Speaker 1: the last sixty years be rolled back.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think a couple of things. I think,
Speaker 2: you know, first of all, the idea of the scarcity mindset,
Speaker 2: who does scarcity benefit? It benefits people who want to hoard.
Speaker 2: And if you look at the history of America, it
Speaker 2: was won by the hoarders. What I mean by that
Speaker 2: is that, you know, when Europeans came here, Native people
Speaker 2: in many places welcome them and said there's plenty, there's
Speaker 2: enough for everybody, come on in. But the Europeans looked
Speaker 2: around and said, no, there's not, and this is mine.
Speaker 2: So I think that we have to realize that this
Speaker 2: idea of like hoarding everything right, power, money, resources, humanity
Speaker 2: is an under is an undercurrent to that predates the
Speaker 2: founding of what we now call the United States of America.
Speaker 2: It came with many of the people that came here
Speaker 2: as settlers, and it is a mindset that we have
Speaker 2: yet to figure out how to effective counter to. I'm
Speaker 2: sorry to counter effectively, and so that means that it's
Speaker 2: still with us and we need to do some deep
Speaker 2: diving into all of that. I think the other thing,
Speaker 2: how do we preserve ourselves in the middle of this.
Speaker 2: I think what's amazing is that, like growing up, I
Speaker 2: got to spend a lot of time with southern rural
Speaker 2: black people, including my grandparents, and I often think about
Speaker 2: all of the things that they did to preserve their
Speaker 2: humanity in circumstances that I can't imagine, you know, ways
Speaker 2: in which they emphasize community, ways in which they emphasize
Speaker 2: connecting with their bodies, ways in which they gardened and
Speaker 2: they farmed, and they worked on their houses and they painted,
Speaker 2: and they were artistic and they were creative, and so
Speaker 2: doing the things with and amongst ourselves that affirm our humanity.
Speaker 2: Because the public sphere is not where we can do that,
Speaker 2: right Like, that's not where that happens. And if you're
Speaker 2: looking for the public spirit to do that, I would
Speaker 2: urge you to think of something different, because that's going
Speaker 2: to be a losing enterprise. You will find your humanity
Speaker 2: by connecting with other people individuals that affirm your humanity
Speaker 2: and in ways that are human, in ways that are
Speaker 2: outside of even the digital realm. I think that right
Speaker 2: now we are called to find the new old ways
Speaker 2: of connecting with each other and with ourselves.
Speaker 1: I think that's so important and it's something that I really,
Speaker 1: by virtue of privilege, had the opportunity to marinate on
Speaker 1: when we were in quarantine. Is this idea of community
Speaker 1: and the idea of what are the things in our
Speaker 1: lives that are truly important and what can we really
Speaker 1: let go of that has just been weighing us down. So,
Speaker 1: whether it is the capitalistic rat race that has us
Speaker 1: see each other as competition instead of community, whether it's
Speaker 1: the overloading of our work schedule, because I'm only as
Speaker 1: valuable as I am as I am productive, right like,
Speaker 1: it was just these different pieces of recognizing how little
Speaker 1: by little our humanity had been robbed from us for
Speaker 1: the benefit of other people. And so when you say
Speaker 1: to connect as a way to reimagine or refine or
Speaker 1: go back to our grandparents and great grandparents ideas of
Speaker 1: what community looks like, I think that that is absolutely
Speaker 1: right because in the social sphere alone, social media sphere alone,
Speaker 1: I mean, my god, the toxicity is just so is
Speaker 1: so potent, you know, I want to with a few
Speaker 1: minutes that we have left, I do want to get
Speaker 1: your thoughts on Trump and his ninety one charges that
Speaker 1: he has against him, ninety one four indictments, ninety one charges,
Speaker 1: the black women who are the ones that have been
Speaker 1: steadfast in the defense of our democracy and the pursuit
Speaker 1: of justice that we are seeing play out, and the
Speaker 1: upcoming Republican And I use that in air quotes because
Speaker 1: I don't see why we would watch a white supremacist debate,
Speaker 1: but debate that is happening soon, and what you think
Speaker 1: about twenty twenty four. So let's start with Trump, the
Speaker 1: Republican front runner, and his just myriad, myriad of charges
Speaker 1: against him.
Speaker 2: I have so many unpopular opinions today. I'm just going
Speaker 2: to continue in that vein. I mean, I think as
Speaker 2: my microphone comes out of my ear my headphones, I
Speaker 2: think that, like the thing that I would say about
Speaker 2: Trump is I understand the hyper focus on these charges.
Speaker 2: It's historic, that's never happened before. And you know Trump
Speaker 2: was just you know, operating with abandon for all these years.
Speaker 2: I think that we have to be very cautious of
Speaker 2: believing that the judicial system is going to save us.
Speaker 2: I think we need to be people need to be
Speaker 2: more skeptical than they are of where this is headed
Speaker 2: and what the outcomes are, because it is I was
Speaker 2: thinking about this the other day. The judicial system has
Speaker 2: been equipped to deal with people have political power. It
Speaker 2: is equipped for people who have monetary or corporate power.
Speaker 2: Is it equipped to deal with people who have both?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know. So I think that
Speaker 2: we just need to be a little bit more skeptical
Speaker 2: in that and just be a little just be circumspect
Speaker 2: in ourselves. The other thing that I think about is
Speaker 2: what happened in Brazil and the two totally different ways
Speaker 2: that they dealt with their insurrection and we dealt with ours.
Speaker 2: Immediately after their insurrection, a governor was forced to resign,
Speaker 2: hundreds of people were put in to jail overnight. Them
Speaker 2: are still there and they're being processed, and now the
Speaker 2: home of their president has been rated, et cetera. And that's,
Speaker 2: you know, in less than a year after that, we
Speaker 2: are now coming up on nearly four years later and
Speaker 2: are just beginning to hold some of the people accountable.
Speaker 2: That I think again should give everybody pause in a
Speaker 2: moment of reflection. With regards to the upcoming election. It's
Speaker 2: going to be I'm not even going to say unprecedented.
Speaker 2: I think it's just going to be something we haven't
Speaker 2: seen before. You know, unprecedented means that in the way
Speaker 2: that we use it is it's without precedent. But I
Speaker 2: think that what we are about to see is beyond
Speaker 2: our imagination, and what we're going to go through next
Speaker 2: year is something that we can't conceive. And I think
Speaker 2: that we have to all get ready for that, and
Speaker 2: we could have a whole show on all the various
Speaker 2: scenarios that could play out next year. But I think
Speaker 2: that we just have to get our minds ready for
Speaker 2: the fact that it's going to be a say what
Speaker 2: moment after a say what moment after a say what moment,
Speaker 2: and I think that for trans people in particular, it's
Speaker 2: going to be extremely rough. Every single major declared candidate
Speaker 2: except for Chris Christy has an explicit anti trans platform.
Speaker 2: I think Hutchinson, I should say, and William Hurd, but
Speaker 2: essentially all of the people who could potentially become president,
Speaker 2: and that means then that gender identity is going to
Speaker 2: be at the very heart of their electoral strategy, both
Speaker 2: for themselves and for the country, and I think that
Speaker 2: that's going to add to a very toxic and dangerous
Speaker 2: atmosphere for trans people.
Speaker 1: Last question for you, You, knowing all of those things
Speaker 1: to be true, what does safety in this time look like?
Speaker 2: Mm? Huh, oh gosh. I told you, I'm not going
Speaker 2: to have a lot of it like popular opinions today.
Speaker 2: I've been getting to toy with the idea of say
Speaker 2: what's what I what people have said in various ways
Speaker 2: throughout history. You know, is the idea of safety and
Speaker 2: illusion is safety temporary. It's safety something that you you
Speaker 2: have and that you can lose. Right, This idea of
Speaker 2: permanently being safe, is that really is that realistic? Right?
Speaker 2: So that's one thing is that I'm thinking about safety
Speaker 2: is being something that expands and contracts. And so if
Speaker 2: I get that, then I'm less shocked that things get
Speaker 2: less safe, right, because I'm like, oh, well, things can
Speaker 2: get less safe. The second thing that I think about
Speaker 2: is that again, and safety is provided by the people
Speaker 2: around you. If you are at a dance event like
Speaker 2: Soul Summit in New York City or in the apartment
Speaker 2: building which I live or you live, who guarantees our safety?
Speaker 2: It is literally the people around us. That's what guarantees
Speaker 2: our safety. Right. We saw it in Lahina, you know,
Speaker 2: it was ours, if not days before anyone saw any
Speaker 2: authorities be present. So who guarantee their safety? Each other?
Speaker 2: So I think that we have to fundamentally think about
Speaker 2: safety as being those people who we are around and
Speaker 2: where we are around, and how we we create the
Speaker 2: spaces literally around us that will provide safety.
Speaker 1: You said it was going to be unpopular, but I
Speaker 1: think that that needs to be a very popular opinion
Speaker 1: because you didn't just leave it at safety as an illusion.
Speaker 1: How we create safety is through community and the people
Speaker 1: around us, and I think that that is beautiful and true.
Speaker 1: Amara Jones, as always, thank you so much for making
Speaker 1: the time to join Woke aff and for all of
Speaker 1: the work that you do and the voices that you
Speaker 1: lift up. It is truly needed and we're grateful.
Speaker 2: Thank you well, in the vein of our conversation, we're
Speaker 2: all needed, So thank you.
Speaker 1: That is it for me today, Dear friends on Woke
Speaker 1: app as always, power to the people and to all
Speaker 1: the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.