Speaker 1: Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy. Hi, everyone,
Speaker 1: Welcome the Mother Knows Death. On this week's external Exam,
Speaker 1: we will be talking to a forensic expert. And we
Speaker 1: always talk about forensic cases on Mother Knows Death, and
Speaker 1: we just we know so much about these stories, but
Speaker 1: we don't know who is involved in solving these crimes
Speaker 1: and helping to figure out what happened in these cases.
Speaker 1: So I thought it would be perfect to talk to
Speaker 1: an old friend of mine. Her name is Antoinette Campbell,
Speaker 1: and not only is she a forensic scientist, but she
Speaker 1: is also the founder of the Association of Women in
Speaker 1: Forensic Science, which is a nonprofit organization to help people
Speaker 1: provide networking opportunities, resources, and programs for female college students
Speaker 1: who are working in forensics, as well as youth that
Speaker 1: is interested in forensics. So welcome today.
Speaker 2: Hi, Hi, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: We're gonna learn all about your really awesome job. Because
Speaker 1: I remember when I first met you, I had no
Speaker 1: idea that this job even existed, so I was asking
Speaker 1: you a thousand questions. So I thought, all right, I'll
Speaker 1: just ask the same questions again because I think everybody
Speaker 1: will be really interested. So you went to Temple University
Speaker 1: here in Philadelphia around twenty years ago and you majored
Speaker 1: in chemistry. So can you tell us because we know
Speaker 1: obviously you work in forensics. But before you started college
Speaker 1: around the same exact time that I did, and I
Speaker 1: know the Internet existed, I guess, but I didn't have
Speaker 1: access to it, so I had asked around the old
Speaker 1: fashioned way. So how did you get introduced to forensics?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Same with me, So the internet, I just became popular. Well,
Speaker 2: came on to see you when I started college and
Speaker 2: I found out about the field by accident. I didn't
Speaker 2: know that with my chemistry background, I could become a
Speaker 2: forensic chemist. So I think I was in either. It
Speaker 2: might have been my junior year. I went to a
Speaker 2: career fear at Temple and the Water Department was there,
Speaker 2: the Philadelphia Water Department was there. They were promoting careers
Speaker 2: to work as an analytical chemist. So I applied and
Speaker 2: I got a letter in the mail that I could
Speaker 2: come for an interview tour or something like that. So
Speaker 2: I said, Okay, this sounds like something I want to do.
Speaker 2: But then I found out that if you applied to
Speaker 2: be a chemist. What's the city with Philly? You would
Speaker 2: be considered by the police, the Water and Health department.
Speaker 2: So I ended up when an interview at the chemistry
Speaker 2: lab at the Philly put Police Department at eighth and Race.
Speaker 2: That's their headquarters. Well, they used to be there at
Speaker 2: eighth and Race. They moved on Broad Street and I
Speaker 2: went on an interview. And during that time, I was
Speaker 2: working as a pharmacy technician at the Write, a pharmacy
Speaker 2: around my way. So I was a pre pharmacy major
Speaker 2: and I just knew I was going to become a pharmacist.
Speaker 2: And then I got interested immediately in being a forensic chemist.
Speaker 2: And then I was hired to work in the chym lab.
Speaker 2: And that was back in night now, that was in
Speaker 2: two thousand and one. So I graduated in two thousand.
Speaker 2: I started in two thousand and one at eph and Race,
Speaker 2: the chemistry lab with the Philly Police.
Speaker 1: And you worked there for twenty years, right.
Speaker 2: I worked there for twenty years. I left about two
Speaker 2: years ago, April two years ago. So yeah, that's that's
Speaker 2: really cool. So you have a lot of experience in this,
Speaker 2: and so why don't you tell us a little bit
Speaker 2: about well, what you did working in the police lab. Like,
Speaker 2: if you work at the police department, do you have
Speaker 2: to be a cop? Do you have to go through
Speaker 2: any training where you could just be a scientist working there.
Speaker 2: So if you want to be a forensic scientist with
Speaker 2: any law enforcement agency, so we're talking about fully police,
Speaker 2: you have to have at least a bachelor's and science.
Speaker 2: So most of my colleagues had their bachelors in chemistry
Speaker 2: and a chemistry laboratory. So I started off working at
Speaker 2: the headquarters and the chem lab analyzing drugs. So we
Speaker 2: analyze confiscate confiscated drugs. We even get prescription drugs, so
Speaker 2: drugs that are coming from the streets, they get transported
Speaker 2: to our laboratory by the police and then we have
Speaker 2: to analyze it. But you definitely have to have a
Speaker 2: background in science to work as a forensic scientist.
Speaker 1: Is this a job that you have to get certification
Speaker 1: for or they train you on the job just with
Speaker 1: your bachelor's degree.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you do receive on the job training. The
Speaker 2: training is pretty intense. When I left, it was longer,
Speaker 2: so it was taken about two years depending on which
Speaker 2: discipline you would go into. So you don't have to
Speaker 2: get a certification, but you do need a bachelor's at minimum. Now,
Speaker 2: I do know people who worked in different units like
Speaker 2: criminalistics that had their master's degrees and forensic science, but
Speaker 2: many of them had at least a bachelor's in either
Speaker 2: chemistry or biology. So you do get on the job training.
Speaker 2: And I know a lot of people are concerned about that,
Speaker 2: but you can apply to be a forensic scientist with
Speaker 2: a bachelor's in science.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's good to note because I know a lot
Speaker 1: of kids end up going to school, they go to
Speaker 1: college and they just get these generalized degrees in biology
Speaker 1: and chemistry and they graduate and they say, I don't
Speaker 1: know what to do with my life. Yeah, And that's
Speaker 1: it's good to be able to tell people that because
Speaker 1: I always tell people to usually go to college for
Speaker 1: a program where they can learn a skill, like to
Speaker 1: work in the lab and get certified at least for
Speaker 1: a medical lab.
Speaker 2: Anyway.
Speaker 1: But that's really good to know because I know a
Speaker 1: lot of really smart people that I'm thinking about calling
Speaker 1: after this interview actually to tell them, like, hey, you know,
Speaker 1: you can try to do this. So you said, so
Speaker 1: this is what was really interesting to me when when
Speaker 1: I met you, because I didn't really understand when you
Speaker 1: said that you did drug testing. I had only rotated
Speaker 1: at the Medical Examiner's office at that point. I know
Speaker 1: that we tested you know, urine, vitreous fluid, and body
Speaker 1: tissues on humans, but I didn't even realize that there
Speaker 1: was a whole separate field to test drugs. So can
Speaker 1: you you said you would get drugs off the street,
Speaker 1: can you give us an example of how these drugs
Speaker 1: that you received would be helped full in forensic investigations.
Speaker 2: So, for example, if someone is charge with drug possession
Speaker 2: or distribution and manufacturing, those drugs will be transported to
Speaker 2: us by the police officers or detectives, so they have
Speaker 2: to go through processing at the precinct. The drugs are
Speaker 2: field tested, not all drugs, but certain drugs are field tested,
Speaker 2: and when we receive the drugs in our custody, for example,
Speaker 2: I'll say cocaine, there are different wet chemical tests that
Speaker 2: we perform. We also do instrumental analysis, and our job
Speaker 2: is to confirm the presence of a control substance, so
Speaker 2: it's alleged when we receive it that is actually the
Speaker 2: drug we are looking for. If we receive a powder,
Speaker 2: we can't say like, oh, this is cocaine or this
Speaker 2: is crack or whatever type of drug or meth. We
Speaker 2: have to actually test it. We have to do estrumental analysis.
Speaker 2: For example, one of it, one of the instruments will
Speaker 2: be like mass, GC, messpeck, And then when we confirm
Speaker 2: the presence of that drug, we then have to write
Speaker 2: up laboratory reports and then we may be called to
Speaker 2: municipal or federal court. So you also have to have
Speaker 2: to testify in court as an expert witness as well.
Speaker 1: So and you've had to do that, I'm assuming.
Speaker 2: Yes, So I had to testify in court plenty of times.
Speaker 2: There is a different difference between testifying and municipal, municipal
Speaker 2: or federal court. You know, some lawyers are more knowledgeable
Speaker 2: than others, So it depends.
Speaker 1: Can you give us an example. I mean, I know,
Speaker 1: obviously you can't say much on a lot of things,
Speaker 1: but of some type of case that you worked on
Speaker 1: where you would have had to go to court to
Speaker 1: testify on, is that something you're allowed to talk about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, Like a lot of things, it's public information.
Speaker 2: And I don't work in the laboratory anymore. But in general,
Speaker 2: I've had cases kilos of cocaine or heroin. You see
Speaker 2: a lot of those type of drugs, and if you're
Speaker 2: called to court on that type of case, then you
Speaker 2: have to go and testify. Now, you're not going to
Speaker 2: remember every case that you analyze. So that's why when
Speaker 2: you're called to court, the lawyer is supposed to prep
Speaker 2: you for the case or go over certain questions they're
Speaker 2: going to ask you so that they can get more
Speaker 2: information about the type of case it is. So when
Speaker 2: you go to testify, you can bring your case file
Speaker 2: with you because you are prepping your case file for
Speaker 2: each case that you analyze, for each type of drug
Speaker 2: case that you analyze. So it's at that point it's
Speaker 2: a criminal investigation. We see the drugs when it is
Speaker 2: already that person has been charged with a drug crime,
Speaker 2: they violated a drug law. So that's how we get it.
Speaker 1: So when you say you find let's say you find
Speaker 1: kiloids KLA, I can't say the word of cocaine. If
Speaker 1: they if they find a lot of it on the field,
Speaker 1: let's say, would they bring all of that to you
Speaker 1: in the drug lab or just to so you could say,
Speaker 1: there's definitely this drug and there's this much of it,
Speaker 1: because I know that that has to do with the
Speaker 1: charges depending on how much a person has.
Speaker 2: It depends on the amount of drugs. So if it's
Speaker 2: a case that is federal, then that will go to
Speaker 2: the local DEA laboratory. But if it's something that is
Speaker 2: in our jurisdiction that we could get, then it will
Speaker 2: go to our lab. So it depends on the weight
Speaker 2: because we had to meet mandatory minimum guidelines while we
Speaker 2: were analyzing drugs. We have to weigh the drugs. So
Speaker 2: we definitely have seen all types of drugs, like I've
Speaker 2: seen hero I'll be in alive heroin. We get a
Speaker 2: lot of heroin and silly unfortunately, and marijuana. Back when
Speaker 2: I was working in the laboratory, I was seeing a
Speaker 2: lot of marijuana, PCPs, syrup, all different types of drugs.
Speaker 1: So over the course of your twenty years and this
Speaker 1: is this is kind of interesting actually, because marijuana became
Speaker 1: decriminalized in Philadelphia I think in twenty fourteen, was it, Yeah,
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, so you were obviously working there during that time.
Speaker 1: What are there trends in drugs like this year, this
Speaker 1: drug was really hot, and then marijuana got decriminalized. Now
Speaker 1: you don't see that as much after that, Like how
Speaker 1: could you speak about that?
Speaker 2: So when I was working in the laboratory during that time,
Speaker 2: we were still getting a lot of marijuana samples and
Speaker 2: we have to weigh the drugs. So I believe it
Speaker 2: was thirty milligrams. So if someone I believe it is
Speaker 2: still that way, I'm not sure if they were caught
Speaker 2: with thirty milligrams or drugs, it was a fine they
Speaker 2: would get, they would get fined, or they would have
Speaker 2: to do some time in jail. But it wasn't as
Speaker 2: you know, like forced like it was before as far
Speaker 2: as like what the laws were with marijuana. But I know,
Speaker 2: even ever since I left, we have the twenty eighteen
Speaker 2: Farm Bill that was passed, so that wasn't an effect
Speaker 2: while I was working in laboratory with the Canada marijuana.
Speaker 1: So what would you say, is is the most common
Speaker 1: drug that you see? I guess that varies from city
Speaker 1: to city, but in the Philadelphia area, what's the most
Speaker 1: common drug that you would come across.
Speaker 2: I would say the most common drug and pilatuh of
Speaker 2: course it's herromin from methazine with coding on the streets,
Speaker 2: they call it lean and cocaine.
Speaker 1: Is that like the cough medicine with the coating.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we I mean, I've analyzed so much of that
Speaker 2: and and it's unfortunate, but a lot of people you
Speaker 2: even see UH rappers and singers still drinking it like
Speaker 2: it's a soda or something. So prom methazine with coding
Speaker 2: is heavily abused.
Speaker 1: That's that's really interesting. Yeah, So in our lab we
Speaker 1: use UH. In the medical lab, we use something called
Speaker 1: universal precautions, which is like we don't know what specimen
Speaker 1: we're touching or what person we're touching, and what disease
Speaker 1: they might have, So we always go in with every
Speaker 1: person thinking that they have HIV HEPSI, like the worst stuff.
Speaker 1: And do you guys do something like that when you
Speaker 1: handle drugs, just because certain ones if you touch or
Speaker 1: something could maybe you could have an exposure to do
Speaker 1: you have you ever heard of anyone in your field
Speaker 1: having like an accidental exposure to a drug.
Speaker 2: So I don't know of anyone that had exposure to drugs,
Speaker 2: but we definitely have received drugs and I've analyzed drugs
Speaker 2: from mules people that were mule and drugs. We receive
Speaker 2: drugs where the ebanus bag was marked HEP or HIV,
Speaker 2: so we knew to take extra precautions. We had a
Speaker 2: biohazard bucket that we had to make sure we disposed
Speaker 2: dispose of things properly, and we also had to make
Speaker 2: sure we wore ppe at all times. I've had colleagues
Speaker 2: that had to analyze some nasty cases from people who
Speaker 2: may have drugs and feces. Of course, you've had drugs
Speaker 2: that had blood on it, So yeah, I've an a
Speaker 2: a lot of those type of drugs, and I've also
Speaker 2: saw colleagues who had really nasty cases as well. So yeah,
Speaker 2: we always had to take precautions while analyzing drugs because
Speaker 2: they come from everywhere. It could come from someone's body
Speaker 2: cavity or the dumpster or the ground. So we saw
Speaker 2: a lot of gross things.
Speaker 1: And what about fat and all, Like, I'm not really
Speaker 1: too familiar with it, but you hear about these cases
Speaker 1: of police officers being exposed to little amounts and passing out.
Speaker 1: Do you think that that's some because there is a
Speaker 1: debate if that's possible or not, and just these minimal
Speaker 1: amounts people are exposed to they're having reactions to. Is
Speaker 1: that something that you guys have been trained for?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. Actually that was the turning point for
Speaker 2: me where I decided I didn't want to work in
Speaker 2: the laboratory anymore when I had to get in NARCAN training. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: we were seeing a lot of heroin spike with fentanyl
Speaker 2: before it was public knowledge of it, before it was mainstream.
Speaker 2: We were seeing in the laboratory the medical examiners where
Speaker 2: they communicate with the laboratories, especially if it's the just
Speaker 2: the drug unit, it doesn't matter, and they were seeing
Speaker 2: overdoses and we were seeing it in drugs, and yeah,
Speaker 2: we had to get NARCAN training and that changed our ppe.
Speaker 2: It went from us wearing thin nightrial gloves to having
Speaker 2: to wear thicker gloves. And when you're working with thicker gloves,
Speaker 2: it's much harder to open up the little coke packets
Speaker 2: or marijuana packets or the heroin package. We had to
Speaker 2: we had to wear the N ninety five masks, and
Speaker 2: we had to do that because fentanyl was not only
Speaker 2: in the heroin, It could be in coke, It could
Speaker 2: be in any powder. So they wanted us to be
Speaker 2: careful and because it's so deadly even with micro doses
Speaker 2: of it being in contact with your skin or in
Speaker 2: helling it. I was just at the point where you know,
Speaker 2: I I'm ready to go over explood quality assurance at
Speaker 2: this point, And that was right then where I was.
Speaker 2: I just was like, this is just too much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not worth your life, right, No, I totally understand,
Speaker 1: especially when you're a mom and everything. It's just kind
Speaker 1: of like, this would be so stupid if I died
Speaker 1: at my job right now because of this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like having to give someone narcan and you know
Speaker 2: that's something that we should be trained to do, but yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah I did. I had to get Narcan training. So,
Speaker 2: oh my god, that's so scary.
Speaker 1: So when you have all these drugs in the lab,
Speaker 1: what happens to the drugs after you guys are done
Speaker 1: testing with them.
Speaker 2: So after we're done testing the drugs, we have to
Speaker 2: package the drugs back up in the ebanus bag, make
Speaker 2: sure that it's stealed properly, and then it goes back
Speaker 2: to the ebinist locker and it remains there until the
Speaker 2: case goes to court or the case is done with
Speaker 2: and they are able to destroy the drugs after a
Speaker 2: certain amount of years when the case is over.
Speaker 1: So when they do that, do they just bring them
Speaker 1: to a place and incinerate them or something like? How
Speaker 1: does that go?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it always goes to this secret location. We never
Speaker 2: know where those drugs. They call it a burn. Those
Speaker 2: drugs are, like you say, in the cinerator, and we
Speaker 2: don't know the location of where it goes.
Speaker 1: Oh, that's really interesting. As a forensic scientists, you ever
Speaker 1: have to go on the scene. So you said they
Speaker 1: do field testing. That's when they test where they find it.
Speaker 1: Is that something a person like you would do or
Speaker 1: is that just something that the police do.
Speaker 2: So the police officers has something called a field test
Speaker 2: kit and it contains the same chemicals that we use
Speaker 2: to test certain drugs. So I'll do sill testing for cocaine, marijuana,
Speaker 2: and heroin and I think methophetic me but it's the
Speaker 2: same chemicals, and they do it for to see if
Speaker 2: it's actually that drug that that person is getting arrested for,
Speaker 2: and then they could use those results in preliminary hearing.
Speaker 2: But we will have to retest it because when we
Speaker 2: test it, it's done in a more controlled environment. Forensic
Speaker 2: scientists are not required to go out on the field,
Speaker 2: and that's the misconception about our job because many people
Speaker 2: they watch a lot of television and they assume that
Speaker 2: we're out on the crime scene collecting the drugs and
Speaker 2: bringing it back and testing it. However, I have met
Speaker 2: some forensic scientists in different parts of the country who
Speaker 2: actually go out to the scene and they come into
Speaker 2: the laboratory and they analyze the drugs. But the jurisdiction
Speaker 2: where I worked, we didn't do that. We were strictly
Speaker 2: in the laboratory all It wasn't nothing glamorous like people
Speaker 2: see on television. And although I was invited to go
Speaker 2: out to scenes by the crime scene unit, I was
Speaker 2: never interested in going out to the scenes to just
Speaker 2: to see like ride along to see what they did.
Speaker 2: I never did a ride along to see how they
Speaker 2: collected evidence. What we did was we were in the
Speaker 2: laboratory all day at our bench, working our cases. We
Speaker 2: had cases assigned to us every day, so say for example,
Speaker 2: you would get ten cases a day or it depended
Speaker 2: on your inventory. So if you already had like thirty
Speaker 2: cases in your lock beIN. Everybody in the laboratory who
Speaker 2: was a chemist had their own lock ben we had
Speaker 2: the key, it was locked. We had to make sure
Speaker 2: that we secured our evidence because chain of custody is
Speaker 2: very important. We have to make sure that we know
Speaker 2: where the evidence is at all times. If it's not
Speaker 2: with us, then it's in the evidence SLocker and we
Speaker 2: have to track it. But yeah, people will always ask
Speaker 2: me about going out on a scene. I've never been
Speaker 2: out on a crime scene.
Speaker 1: It's funny because a common theme that's coming up in
Speaker 1: these interviews when I'm interviewing all these scientists is that,
Speaker 1: like they say, it's not like it is on TV
Speaker 1: and it looks I think a lot of people watch
Speaker 1: all these TV shows and they think it's so glamorous
Speaker 1: and it looks like the coolest job ever. I even
Speaker 1: tell a lot of my followers on Instagram that I
Speaker 1: make the job look way cooler than it is because
Speaker 1: it's just like kind of a drag work in there,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like working in a cubicle all day. It's
Speaker 1: not very exciting.
Speaker 2: And you do have and I did have a cubicle.
Speaker 2: So we have our administrative area outside of the laboratory
Speaker 2: where we have a I know where I worked at.
Speaker 2: We had our own desks, so and it was kind
Speaker 2: of plushed like we had our own desk. We had
Speaker 2: lab assistants who made the re agents. Then we would
Speaker 2: go in the laboratory and we would work at our bench.
Speaker 2: So we had fume hoods and microscopes and scales and
Speaker 2: instruments that we use. So it is really cool too,
Speaker 2: but it's it's like repetitious as you do the same
Speaker 2: thing every day. The only thing that changes is the
Speaker 2: drugs and the amount of drugs. You analyze the same drugs,
Speaker 2: but the amount changes. It's a lot of PaperWorks. It's
Speaker 2: a tedious job.
Speaker 1: It's not easy, yeah, and it's important because you could
Speaker 1: be responsible for sending someone to jail for a long time,
Speaker 1: so that weighs on your shoulders a lot. I'm sure
Speaker 1: you don't want anybody serving time that shouldn't be, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's why every report that we put out,
Speaker 2: it's peer reviewed by another analyst to make sure that
Speaker 2: those tests were performed correctly, that you have the correct results.
Speaker 2: So in the drug unit is not as likely as
Speaker 2: someone to probably you know, I know it's in the
Speaker 2: news sometimes somebody tested the wrong drug, but We have
Speaker 2: so many checks and balances, we have a quality assurance program,
Speaker 2: we have peer reviews. It's not like you're examining a
Speaker 2: drug case and then you're just putting the results out.
Speaker 2: I know there's some laboratories that had some issues with
Speaker 2: people doing it because they they didn't have a really
Speaker 2: uh a tight quality assurance program or babe, they weren't accredited,
Speaker 2: but you couldn't. You can be accredited and still could
Speaker 2: be mistakes. Being accredited doesn't mean that you're not going
Speaker 2: to make any mistakes.
Speaker 1: So I'm just trying to see if we can figure
Speaker 1: out just the scale of the Philadelphia lapse. So you
Speaker 1: you worked at you just said, and Race was at
Speaker 1: the sign the circular building.
Speaker 2: That you I started out of eph and Race and
Speaker 2: then we moved to Aph and Poplar. So, oh okay, Well,
Speaker 2: the Forensic Science la Vatory of Philadelphia is a EFHAN popular.
Speaker 1: And that was the only one for the entire city.
Speaker 2: Only one for the entire city. So inside of that
Speaker 2: building you have the crime scene unit, the Chrominalistics Unit
Speaker 2: on which is made up of also DNA, the DNA units.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, in documents, firearms, crime scene documents, all.
Speaker 1: And how many people were working there that were doing
Speaker 1: your job exactly.
Speaker 2: I was saying the chemistry unit, it was a lot
Speaker 2: of us. It had to be about I don't know,
Speaker 2: twenty something of us, yeah, twenty five of us maybe.
Speaker 1: And then you get you were like, what would be
Speaker 1: the average of cases that you would work on a day?
Speaker 2: The average cases I used to work on a day
Speaker 2: before I became a senior analyst, and I wasn't getting
Speaker 2: as many cases. Probably was like I always had at
Speaker 2: least fifteen to twenty cases. Maybe.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's a lot for twenty for twenty people
Speaker 1: to each have that many passes.
Speaker 2: I remember when we get the cases, the cases go
Speaker 2: in sequential order of numbers. You know, it's the year
Speaker 2: and then the number case it is. I remember when
Speaker 2: I was working, we were up like almost thirty thousand
Speaker 2: cases for the year. Well there's a lot of drugs
Speaker 2: in Philly, Yes, clearly. I mean I remember seeing numbers
Speaker 2: like over twenty thousand, almost thirty thousand cases. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: just by you looking at the lab, I d number.
Speaker 1: It's funny how you say, like the job's kind of
Speaker 1: like a boring office job, and it's like your friends
Speaker 1: you're eating lunch with or like checking guns and doing
Speaker 1: DNA and all this stuff. It's it just I understand
Speaker 1: though totally. You're working with all this crazy stuff. But
Speaker 1: after for every person, you just get used to it
Speaker 1: after a while.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you get used to it. I mean you get
Speaker 2: used to laying out hundreds of packets of blue glaze
Speaker 2: heroin packets. I mean that's the thing in Philly. Our
Speaker 2: heroin packets are blue glaze packets inside of a glassy
Speaker 2: It's a glass sen blue glaze packet inside of a
Speaker 2: clear packet with logos. So that's our thing with heroin.
Speaker 2: And you just see different logos and you see all
Speaker 2: different types of pills, and you could be working on
Speaker 2: a brick of marijuana. You could get a bag full
Speaker 2: of marijuana plants or see. I think this is cool
Speaker 2: because their whole day is you analyzing drugs, doing your cases.
Speaker 2: You go from case to case. You gotta test it.
Speaker 2: You do presumptive color tests. All drugs have different colors
Speaker 2: tests we have to do. And this is a part
Speaker 2: of your training. When you get trained, you have to
Speaker 2: go through the different type of classes of drugs, the theory,
Speaker 2: and you have to take competency exams, you have to do,
Speaker 2: mock trials, you have to do It's like you're constantly
Speaker 2: learning all the time. It's never ending.
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Speaker 1: speaking of learning, So you're working here at this really
Speaker 1: boring job and then you decide that, I, how did
Speaker 1: you come up with the decision that you were going
Speaker 1: to start this huge nonprofit organization? Like what gave you
Speaker 1: the idea to start that?
Speaker 2: So I just was coming across a lot of people.
Speaker 2: It didn't matter if I was going you probably experienced it.
Speaker 2: You go to the bactor's office, you go anywhere, and
Speaker 2: as soon as they asked me what I do, they
Speaker 2: start talking to me forever. They're just so fascinated by
Speaker 2: what I do. And then I was coming across a
Speaker 2: lot of college students, in high school students and even
Speaker 2: career changers who wanted to get into the field, but
Speaker 2: they didn't have no mentorship, they didn't know where to start.
Speaker 2: So I had this crazy idea where I didn't know
Speaker 2: nothing about starting a nonprofit. It was in twenty ten,
Speaker 2: so I was in my thirties, like early thirties, and
Speaker 2: I wanted to help people. And it didn't start off
Speaker 2: right away as a nonprofit. I know, I had to
Speaker 2: come up with a name, and I just came up
Speaker 2: with a name like Okay, there are no women owned,
Speaker 2: especially black owned organizations to help people in forensics. And
Speaker 2: I asked some of my friends who were forensic scientists
Speaker 2: working in the laboratory from each unit to help. I
Speaker 2: had friend and firearms and a friend in sorology in chemistry,
Speaker 2: and I just asked, you want to help. So I
Speaker 2: started doing classes at the rec center around my way
Speaker 2: and at this other STEM center, and I just started
Speaker 2: doing workshops. I was doing networking events and I was
Speaker 2: doing this before it was only Facebook. Instagram didn't exist.
Speaker 2: I don't think Twitter existed, so how I was getting
Speaker 2: a word out? I was just posting stuff on Facebook.
Speaker 2: I had started a blog and I remember I remember
Speaker 2: interviewing you for my blog. It was the Women in
Speaker 2: Forensics blog that was afterwards, but it was it was
Speaker 2: just solely driven by my passion of wanting to help people.
Speaker 2: That's it. I wanted to do something. I saw there
Speaker 2: was a need and I just was like, Okay, this
Speaker 2: is what I'm gonna do. I'm ana startup organization and
Speaker 2: I'm gonna call it this and it just went from there.
Speaker 1: It's so awesome. Like I I'm thinking, like we kind
Speaker 1: of go way back. I met you before I even
Speaker 1: had my little kids, and I remember I have this
Speaker 1: good story of you asked me to do some event.
Speaker 1: I think it was I don't even know what the
Speaker 1: neighborhood was. Do you know where I'm talking about?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Uk, And did the our murder Mystery event, Murder
Speaker 2: of a Prime Queen. It was in Germantown.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, So that was that was cool. And
Speaker 1: I had just had when you asked me to do it,
Speaker 1: I just had Lilian. She was less than one month old,
Speaker 1: and I said, I don't know, like I can't. I'm
Speaker 1: breastfeeding this kid. I don't even know how to pump yet, like,
Speaker 1: and you just were so cool, like just bring your
Speaker 1: kid with you. And I felt like I was like,
Speaker 1: that's this is what's great about the women thing because
Speaker 1: it's like you get Yeah, you got that right. So
Speaker 1: I went there to that event with my mom. My
Speaker 1: mom came with me, and I had her dealing with
Speaker 1: Lilian when she was a month old while I was
Speaker 1: doing my thing. Yep, and I have this picture of
Speaker 1: Lilian in the stroller one month old, like all slouched
Speaker 1: over in front of my autopsy tools.
Speaker 2: Yeah I remember. Actually you did two events. Okay, that
Speaker 2: was the first event that was the Philadelphia Science Festival
Speaker 2: event we did a murder mystery. Oh yeah yeah, and
Speaker 2: then you came to my other event. But yeah, you
Speaker 2: were always cool. I mean I met you when you
Speaker 2: was our heart autopsy. You're black. Yeah, well, last said
Speaker 2: this is so dope, like I want to know more.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really cool. And then I got to meet
Speaker 1: a lot of your friends too that that also do
Speaker 1: really cool jobs doing the DNA and everything like that,
Speaker 1: and it's like this full circle of everything coming together.
Speaker 1: It's just really cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I also have a picture with you from like one
Speaker 1: of the moodor events. Was that the was the prom
Speaker 1: queen one there or no, there was another one there events?
Speaker 2: So we used to always see each other there every year. Yeah,
Speaker 2: a motor event and wait, I forgot you did no,
Speaker 2: you did three events because you came to one of
Speaker 2: my beyond crom Seas and autopsies at a restaurant. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: Green Soul Yeah so.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah that the one on Broad Street there.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that was that was a cool night.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I love what you're doing because it's it's really it's
Speaker 1: just so cool to introduce kids and you have you
Speaker 1: set me a couple of years ago this this T
Speaker 1: shirt that said Junior Forensic Scientists or Forensic Scientist in Training.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Junior Forensics Squad. I think was a junior forensic.
Speaker 1: Yeah it was. Well, my kid wore it every day
Speaker 1: and all the kids at school were like, where'd you
Speaker 1: get that? It's so cool? But she finally grew out
Speaker 1: of it. I still saved it aside because I'm like
Speaker 1: the aams like coolnather shirt.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So you're still doing that too, like making shirts and
Speaker 1: stuff for for well. I saw the Barbie theme one
Speaker 1: you have, which is amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a street Forensics dot com when it's on
Speaker 2: Street Forensics dot Com. So I do all sigance shirts
Speaker 2: and stickers and and hoodies. Yeah, so that's that's one
Speaker 2: of my my babies too, is Street Forensics dot Com
Speaker 2: to do stuff when they're Yeah.
Speaker 1: That's so cool. So I know that there's I've been
Speaker 1: hearing a lot of high school kids say that they
Speaker 1: offer forensics classes now in high school sometimes do you
Speaker 1: have any involvement with those sort of things?
Speaker 2: So I do. I do brain cloths for silly forensics
Speaker 2: to schools. I do contract with certain schools. I still
Speaker 2: come out to schools and do career days. I also
Speaker 2: still run my own club fully forensics program. I was
Speaker 2: doing it at the MEG in Mount Erie. My last
Speaker 2: class was in December. So although I'm not working in
Speaker 2: the laboratory no more, it's still I'm still connected to
Speaker 2: wanting to help youth, to mentor them and give them
Speaker 2: guidance to get in a field if that's what they
Speaker 2: want to do, to get exposed to it.
Speaker 1: I love that do you ever have. I mean, because
Speaker 1: now you've been doing it so long, do you have
Speaker 1: people come up to you that say, hey, you helped me,
Speaker 1: and now I've went through school and graduated, I'm doing
Speaker 1: this career.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like I'm like wow, Like, yeah, I have
Speaker 2: people that come up to me who are adults that
Speaker 2: were in my class and they were little kids, or
Speaker 2: they either graduated and are working in a field, or
Speaker 2: they decided it wasn't for them and they changed major.
Speaker 2: But I have parents get in touch with me, students
Speaker 2: still dm me, and yeah, it's it's uh, it's like
Speaker 2: what I really like to do. I enjoy doing it.
Speaker 1: It's cool too, because I know, since we're in a
Speaker 1: similar field where you kind of go to work in
Speaker 1: a lab all day and nobody ever says thank you,
Speaker 1: and you can't really tell that you're making.
Speaker 2: A difference exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's I mean, you say, if you're sitting
Speaker 1: there just analyzing drugs all day, you you know that
Speaker 1: you're making a difference. But really it's just different when
Speaker 1: you're when you're hearing it from actual people, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's more of fulfilling. You feel appreciate it. Like
Speaker 2: you said, I didn't find my feel to be too
Speaker 2: welcoming like STEM being a scientist. It's it's still I
Speaker 2: would it's a lot of women, but it's still male
Speaker 2: dominated when it comes to people who are in like
Speaker 2: the leadership positions exactly. Yeah, so that's one of the
Speaker 2: reasons why I les that's fir. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was wondering that too, because when I feel like
Speaker 1: when I started, it's it went from being a more
Speaker 1: male dominated feel in pathology and then at some point
Speaker 1: it was like every single person that was in the
Speaker 1: program was a woman. Yeah, for training, which was really
Speaker 1: interesting seeing here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, saying I experienced the saying it's just that we
Speaker 2: need to see more women directors and lab managers. Especially
Speaker 2: when you're working with the police. It's it's just so
Speaker 2: much testastone and you see women around. But again, you
Speaker 2: know what it is when you're working in these certain environments.
Speaker 1: So yeah, and the lab is always I always have
Speaker 1: this theory on the lab too, is that when you're
Speaker 1: at the hospital and you're a nurse or something, or
Speaker 1: you're even when you're a police, you have interactions with
Speaker 1: other people. When you work in the lab, you only
Speaker 1: have interactions with your coworkers, and sometimes it could get
Speaker 1: nasty because it's you Like I feel like if you
Speaker 1: work on the floor, the nurse could be like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, that patience sucks or whatever, you know. But
Speaker 1: but for us in the lab, it's just like, no,
Speaker 1: by coworker sucks. Like they're the only ones that are
Speaker 1: getting on my nerves right now, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2: You're very isolated from everybody because again you're only seeing
Speaker 2: your coworkers every day. Now. When I transferred over to
Speaker 2: Quality Assurance, I was working even more with the police
Speaker 2: and the command of officers, and it was a totally
Speaker 2: different experience.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I feel like that would be That's how
Speaker 1: it was like in the lab. We might have the
Speaker 1: occasional person come and drop off a specimen, but that
Speaker 1: was it. Sometimes if we got to leave for lunch,
Speaker 1: like that would be like other human interactions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we would have you know, of course,
Speaker 2: we would come across lawyers and paralegals that would come
Speaker 2: into the laboratory and they wanted to review a case
Speaker 2: before the before the trial or whatever. So yeah, but
Speaker 2: we were mostly just cooped up in the edmin area
Speaker 2: and our cubicle. You just see the same people every day.
Speaker 1: It gives me bad flashbacks.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. That's why I have no desire.
Speaker 1: To go back to Yeah. I feel that way too.
Speaker 1: I'm good going once in a while and like I
Speaker 1: don't need that as a full time job anymore.
Speaker 2: No thanks in here. I'm good. I did, I did
Speaker 2: enough time, you know, and now I'm doing things that
Speaker 2: are more you know, make me happy.
Speaker 1: So it's funny how we're referring to our old careers
Speaker 1: as prison time, like I.
Speaker 2: Did my I mean that's how you feel like as
Speaker 2: you get older, you just change, you change, or you
Speaker 2: know you have. When I started, I didn't have a daughter,
Speaker 2: you know. I and especially when you start a family,
Speaker 2: you want to spend more time with your family than
Speaker 2: you spend at the job.
Speaker 1: So I know that your women in Forensics program is
Speaker 1: based out of Philly, but is that something Are you
Speaker 1: able to help youth like all over the country, not
Speaker 1: just specifically in Philadelphia. Do you do like online programs
Speaker 1: or anything?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I do, I especially daring COVID. That's when my
Speaker 2: virtual stuff started with me doing club Fully, I did
Speaker 2: a club Phully Forensics virtual program and I had a
Speaker 2: student helped me. She was so helpful with that, and
Speaker 2: she talked to classes and after that I realized, you know,
Speaker 2: I want to do virtual stuff more. So that's why
Speaker 2: my membership that I have it's all virtual, so that
Speaker 2: way I can reach people from all over the country,
Speaker 2: from all over the world, which I do have a
Speaker 2: global following.
Speaker 1: So oh that's cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like meeting people from all over It was
Speaker 2: it was just me getting used to the time zones,
Speaker 2: you know, being able to accommodate people from different time zones.
Speaker 2: And yeah, that's the goal for me really, one of
Speaker 2: them is to do more things that are digital.
Speaker 1: It's cool too because you can learn, i know, in
Speaker 1: my specific pathology, just learning what other countries do. They
Speaker 1: don't have the same exact process as us when handling
Speaker 1: natural deaths or any kind of deaths or anything. So
Speaker 1: it's really interesting to learn what they do in other countries.
Speaker 1: Are you finding that too that yeah, yeah, their whole
Speaker 1: other systems are just different.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I am finding out finding that out, like I have.
Speaker 2: Like doctor, her name is Doc Gobins. I hear she's
Speaker 2: from Morocco and she's the way they're training medical legal
Speaker 2: death investigation and what they're able to do is different
Speaker 2: than the US. And that's why I tell a lot
Speaker 2: of people, like, you don't have to stay confined to
Speaker 2: the United States. You could think about going outside of
Speaker 2: the country to get a job. And I think that's
Speaker 2: what a lot of people don't think about when they
Speaker 2: want to go into forensics. If they can't find a
Speaker 2: job here, they don't think about relocating to a different
Speaker 2: country or or a different continent. A continent you know,
Speaker 2: you don't have to stay here, you can go somewhere.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's it is cool because you have to
Speaker 1: Like I understand that people Americans don't think that way,
Speaker 1: but you're like, guess what, There's drugs in other countries
Speaker 1: and people murder people in other countries.
Speaker 2: Me and you know, what we do is global, so
Speaker 2: you meet different people and your system is different, and
Speaker 2: it's so interesting to get out there and meet people
Speaker 2: who are who speak different languages and who don't practice
Speaker 2: things the same way you do. So I just think
Speaker 2: that's part of us being American, Like we.
Speaker 1: You need to go visit your friend in Morocco's that's
Speaker 1: like on my list.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she she I think she's in Casablanca, so cool. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and she's she's done a beyond crime seas or autopsies
Speaker 2: for me like three times. And she's so nice and
Speaker 2: and I and I meet so many people who want
Speaker 2: to help. I've met more people outside of the country
Speaker 2: who wants to support and do things with women in
Speaker 2: forensics than people in the United States, like a worldwide
Speaker 2: association of Women Forensic Experts, Like she's in Italy and
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, that's a best coordinator with her, Anna Barbaro,
Speaker 2: and she's real helpful. So it's yeah, it's like you,
Speaker 2: I've kind of been able to see the world without
Speaker 2: me physically being there, just by me meeting these people,
Speaker 2: and that's been kind of also one of my interests
Speaker 2: is to get out and travel and meet other people
Speaker 2: outside in forensics and see what's what's different about what
Speaker 2: they do. I love that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Thanks.
Speaker 1: So, so now that you're you're retired from the from
Speaker 1: the police department, what what's next for you? I know
Speaker 1: that you're just going to continue to do this, which
Speaker 1: is awesome. Do you have any other any other interest
Speaker 1: in doing anything else?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So I do like out of school time working
Speaker 2: with after school program so I do that as well,
Speaker 2: And I just want to continue to run my club
Speaker 2: fully forensics program and grow Street Forensics and also create
Speaker 2: like educational resources for youth who are interested in forensics
Speaker 2: because I love art, so I like creating stuff that
Speaker 2: they could use to be able to learn more about
Speaker 2: the field. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But you know it's interesting too with all these interviews,
Speaker 1: I noticed that a lot of scientists that are in
Speaker 1: this field are are artists as well, Like I consider
Speaker 1: myself to be an artist. Yeah, and we just interviewed
Speaker 1: someone last week who's a forensic artist. She does the
Speaker 1: composite sketches and also the clay bone sculpture. And it's
Speaker 1: just cool because sometimes when you have one of these
Speaker 1: jobs at Super Science Base, you need this like other
Speaker 1: outlet to get your art stuff out.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So all right, so let's tell everybody where they can
Speaker 1: find it, because you have a lot of different things
Speaker 1: going on. But let's start off with the clothes. That
Speaker 1: was the Street Forensics, right, Yes, those shirts are really cute.
Speaker 1: What's the that website?
Speaker 2: So that's street forensics dot com. So that's Street s
Speaker 2: t R e e T Forensics dot com. And then
Speaker 2: I had a withst dot org a w ifs and
Speaker 2: frank As is a Sambaut org. And I also have
Speaker 2: a membership which is my Patreon forward slash Women a
Speaker 2: Forensics where people can join and be able to meet
Speaker 2: with me twice a month, and I have guest speakers
Speaker 2: to talk about how they can start a career in
Speaker 2: forensics and that's awesome. And my handles women in Forensics
Speaker 2: on Instagram and Street Forensics Instagram.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Yeah, I think you're I think your Patreon
Speaker 1: page is really good because it's it's almost like having
Speaker 1: a like a guidance counselor specific to what you want
Speaker 1: to do that actually knows the right advice each of you.
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that, being as though
Speaker 2: you've had a membership for so many years. I mean,
Speaker 2: you the pioneer and all of it. No one was
Speaker 2: doing what you were doing when you started, Like, oh,
Speaker 2: thank you, I'm proud of what you're doing.
Speaker 1: I'm so proud of what you're doing too. It's awesome.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for being here today.
Speaker 2: Of course, you're welcome. Thanks for having me. I really
Speaker 2: appreciate you having me on your platform, and you've always
Speaker 2: been supportos for years, so.
Speaker 1: Of course anything for you. You're awesome.
Speaker 2: Oh are you too? Thanks Nicole, appreciate you.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mother Knows Death. As a reminder,
Speaker 1: my training is as a pathologist assistant. I have a
Speaker 1: master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.
Speaker 1: I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed
Speaker 1: or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of
Speaker 1: a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social
Speaker 1: media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based
Speaker 1: on my experience working in pathology, so they can make
Speaker 1: healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember
Speaker 1: that science is changing every day and the opinions expressed
Speaker 1: in this episode are based on my knowledge of those
Speaker 1: subjects at the time of publication. If you are having
Speaker 1: a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a
Speaker 1: medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent
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