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Speaker 1: Pushkin. We're finally winding down our series on My favorite

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Speaker 1: books of twenty twenty five, and today's favorite book. Choice

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Speaker 1: deals with the problem that I struggle with a lot,

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Speaker 1: how to make better decisions. Our happiness is shaped by

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Speaker 1: the choices we make within the circumstances we're given. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: those choices feel obvious, like whether to open a window

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Speaker 1: when the room you're in is feeling stuffy, or whether

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Speaker 1: to grab a glass of water if you're feeling parched.

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Speaker 1: But bigger life decisions like who to marry, which career

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Speaker 1: path to follow, or where to live, can feel paralyzing.

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Speaker 1: And that kind of makes sense. The bigger the choice,

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Speaker 1: the greater it's potential to impact your life and your

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Speaker 1: well being. So what do you do when you're faced

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Speaker 1: with a big decision? How do you make the most

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Speaker 1: happiness inducing choice? Do you talk it through with a

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Speaker 1: loved one or therapist. Do you make a big list

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Speaker 1: of pros and con do you flip a coin? Well,

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Speaker 1: today's guest has some advice.

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Speaker 2: Hi. My name is Barry Schwartz. I'm a psychologist. I

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Speaker 2: spent forty five years teaching at a place called Swarthmore

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Speaker 2: College outside of Philadelphia. Then retired and moved to Oakland.

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Speaker 2: My interests for many, many years have been on the

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Speaker 2: intersection of economics and psychology, focused on how people make

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Speaker 2: decisions and also how they should make decisions.

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Speaker 1: Berry's been a guest on the Happiness Lab a few

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Speaker 1: times because I'm a huge fan of his work, so

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Speaker 1: I was super excited to see that he had a

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Speaker 1: new book out about how to make tough decisions. It's

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Speaker 1: called Choose Wisely, Rationality, Ethics, and the Art of Decision Making.

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Speaker 1: It's co authored with Barry's former Swarthmore colleague, the philosopher

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Speaker 1: Richard Schuldenfry. I wanted to start a conversation about choosing

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Speaker 1: Wisely with some definitions. So my first question to Barry

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Speaker 1: was what makes a decision good?

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Speaker 2: So a good decision is one that gets you to

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Speaker 2: things that enable you to live a good life.

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Speaker 1: I would say, seems like you're pretty good at making

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Speaker 1: decisions that enable you to live a good life. You've

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Speaker 1: been with your wife for a long time, I think

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Speaker 1: you said in your book since seventh grade, and you

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Speaker 1: spent half your life at one university. Has this always

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Speaker 1: come easy to you? Or are there decisions that you

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Speaker 1: really struggle with?

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Speaker 2: Too. There are very few decisions that I have struggled with.

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Speaker 2: There are people who, at least some of the time,

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Speaker 2: think their task is to get the best out of

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Speaker 2: whatever situation they're in. We call them maximizers. And there

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Speaker 2: are people who aspire to good enough. And they may

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Speaker 2: have low standards with respect to some things and high

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Speaker 2: standards with respect to other things. But whatever their standards are,

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Speaker 2: as soon as they find something that meets them, they

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Speaker 2: stop looking. I have always been that way. The question

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Speaker 2: in my mind was always is this good enough? And sometimes,

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Speaker 2: you know, I was pleasantly surprised. I chose good enough

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Speaker 2: and it turned out it was spectacular. But I wasn't

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Speaker 2: looking for perfect. I was looking for good enough. And

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Speaker 2: that makes decision making a lot easier. And that is

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Speaker 2: especially true in the modern world. You know, one hundred

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Speaker 2: years ago, there wasn't much difference between looking for the

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Speaker 2: best and looking for good enough because it just weren't

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Speaker 2: that many options. But now you could spend your whole

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Speaker 2: life looking for the best pair of jeans, or you know,

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Speaker 2: the best restaurant in the New York metropolitan area, or

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Speaker 2: what have you, and you'd end up dying naked and starving.

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Speaker 1: You had this experience yourself, though, even as a good

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Speaker 1: decision maker, trying to buy jeans one time, I remember.

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Speaker 2: It shows you how seductive it is for somebody like me.

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Speaker 2: You know, I used to buy jeans. I wore jeans

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Speaker 2: every day, and I would buy them when the old

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Speaker 2: pair wore out, when my life was embarrassed to be

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Speaker 2: seen in public with me, you know, because I didn't

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Speaker 2: like shopping for jeans. They were uncomfortable when you first

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Speaker 2: bought them, they had to wash them a million times.

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Speaker 2: So anyway, I went to the gap, which is where

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Speaker 2: I bought my jeans, and I told them my size,

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Speaker 2: and the clerk said, you want slim fit, easy fit,

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Speaker 2: relax fit, buttonflies, zip or fly boot cut, and I said,

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Speaker 2: I want the kind that used to be the only kind,

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Speaker 2: which of course they didn't make anymore. So I ended

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Speaker 2: up trying on all these different styles, thinking well, if

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Speaker 2: they go to the trouble of making them, I should

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Speaker 2: go to the trouble of trying them. And I walked

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Speaker 2: out with the best fitting jeans I had ever had,

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Speaker 2: and I felt worse. And the reason I felt worse

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Speaker 2: is that what happened when there were all these options.

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Speaker 2: Is that my standards for what counted as a good

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Speaker 2: result went up. You know, when all there was one

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Speaker 2: kind of genes, only an idiot would expect perfection, an

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Speaker 2: idiot or model. But I'm not an idiot and I'm

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Speaker 2: not a model, So you know, good enough was good enough.

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Speaker 2: But now when I see them making them in all

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Speaker 2: these different cuts styles, I expect better than good enough.

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Speaker 2: So what I got was good, but it wasn't perfect,

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Speaker 2: and so I ended up feeling like I had failed.

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Speaker 2: And it occurred to me that this is life for

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Speaker 2: people in rich, democratic societies, and it is incredibly wasteful

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Speaker 2: of resources, and it is incredibly detrimental to people's well being.

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Speaker 1: I think another thing that happens in the modern day

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Speaker 1: isn't just that we have this like incredible overwhelm of choice,

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Speaker 1: you know, BOOKA and super Fly, all this stuff with jeans.

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Speaker 1: We also live in a world where we get lots

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Speaker 1: of information about them too. I'm experiencing this because I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to buy a new projector. You know, we used

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Speaker 1: to have a projector that we watch movies on the

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Speaker 1: projector just died, and so I go on the web.

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Speaker 1: There's millions of projectors. But it's not just the choice.

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Speaker 1: It feels to me also like it's the information that's

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Speaker 1: out there. So first I go on you know, Wirecutter,

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Speaker 1: the New York Times, and then I see a million

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Speaker 1: different views that people have. It feels like I'm supposed

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Speaker 1: to be optimizing, because otherwise, why would there be not

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Speaker 1: just so much choice, but so much information about my

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Speaker 1: choices out there?

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Speaker 2: You're exactly right. It's like only an idiot would fail

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Speaker 2: to take advantage of all the variety and all the information.

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Speaker 2: There's enormous pressure. You know, satisficing is good enough. The

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Speaker 2: way people hear that when I give talks about this

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Speaker 2: is satisficing is settling. The word settling is not neutral.

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Speaker 2: When people describe you as settling, they're criticizing. Why would

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Speaker 2: you set? And of course you're right. Nowadays, the information

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Speaker 2: and misinformation is so abundant, you know, it's effortless. When

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Speaker 2: I was applying to college one hundred years ago, you'd

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Speaker 2: send off to a college and they'd send you their

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Speaker 2: course catalog which was incomprehensible, and you know, a million

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Speaker 2: pages thick, but that's what you got. So you had

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Speaker 2: to do decide where to apply to college as a

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Speaker 2: seventeen year old with this incredibly unwieldy information and it

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Speaker 2: took weeks for it to come. So how many colleges

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Speaker 2: you're going to apply to given how effortful it is

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Speaker 2: to get information that is then effortful to make sense of.

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Speaker 2: Is that the world we live in now? Absolutely not.

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Speaker 2: You can get all the information you want about every

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Speaker 2: college in the United States in a half hour, So

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Speaker 2: why not take advantage?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this idea that we need to optimize

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Speaker 1: everything is just the kind of current culture, right, But

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Speaker 1: this is also something that economists have been telling us

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Speaker 1: for a long time. There's this idea that we're supposed

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Speaker 1: to optimize our decisions. And so in your book you

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Speaker 1: review this kind of classic formula that we use to

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Speaker 1: make rational decisions. Tell me what this formula is and

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Speaker 1: explain why you've pushed against it so much.

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Speaker 2: Sure, so, what we've inherited from economics is the idea

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Speaker 2: that a good decision is one that maximizes utility.

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Speaker 1: And maybe just define for listeners who are totally unfamiliar

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Speaker 1: with this stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, utility is whatever you think it is. So you

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Speaker 2: decide what's worth what you know you may be turned

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Speaker 2: on by esthetics, and I may be turned on by

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Speaker 2: the size of my bank account, and somebody else may

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Speaker 2: be turned on by being able to hit tennis. Ass

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Speaker 2: whatever it is, you should be choosing in a way

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Speaker 2: that maximizes that thing for you, and then you go

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Speaker 2: through the world making decisions so that you get the

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Speaker 2: most utility out of every decision that you possibly can.

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Speaker 2: So rational choice theory grows out of economics. It's been

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Speaker 2: around for a very long time, and it makes good

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Speaker 2: intuitive sense. If your goal when you're making a decision

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Speaker 2: is to maximize utility, then for every option you face,

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Speaker 2: you need to know two things. One how good will

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Speaker 2: it be? How util will it be? Two? How likely

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Speaker 2: is it that if I choose it, it'll actually be

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Speaker 2: as good as I think? Because the world is uncertain,

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Speaker 2: very much analogous to the bets we make in a casino,

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Speaker 2: you need to know two things, how much will I

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Speaker 2: win and how likely am I to win it. You

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Speaker 2: multiply those two things together and you get a quote

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Speaker 2: expected utility, and then you simply choose the option that

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Speaker 2: has the highest expected utility. And that's the way you're

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Speaker 2: supposed to go through life. The thing to notice is

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Speaker 2: that it assumes that the decisions we make are like

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Speaker 2: decisions we might make in a casino, that there are

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Speaker 2: numbers that can be attached to the value of each outcome,

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Speaker 2: and there are numbers that can be attached to the

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Speaker 2: likelihood of getting that value, so you know there's no

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Speaker 2: uncertainty when you're playing roulette or blackjack. You can attach

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Speaker 2: both potential gains and probabilities to all those gamps. That's

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Speaker 2: the way the games are set up. Using your college,

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Speaker 2: deciding what to do for the weekend, deciding who to

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Speaker 2: interview on your podcast don't seem to be like that,

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Speaker 2: but the push from economics is find a way to

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Speaker 2: quantify and you will enhance your rationality. So that has

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Speaker 2: been the normative standard for a century. What happens is

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Speaker 2: that your science moves in the wrong direction, and then

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Speaker 2: social institutions move in the same direction, and before you

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Speaker 2: know it, it got like fish not knowing they live

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Speaker 2: in water. It's hard to imagine there's another way to

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Speaker 2: organize your life and another set of things to care about.

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Speaker 2: So you know, rational choice theory is probably not a

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Speaker 2: phrase that is familiar to most people, but I think

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Speaker 2: the way they think you're supposed to make decisions is

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Speaker 2: an embodiment of rational choice theory with some of the

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Speaker 2: rough edges sort of sanded down a little bit. And

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Speaker 2: the point of the new book, which is called Choose Wisely,

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Speaker 2: is that rational choice theory is a disastrous standard to

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Speaker 2: use because most of the decisions we make, even minor

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Speaker 2: ones and certainly major ones, are nothing like casino gambles.

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Speaker 1: So in your book, you tell some of these powerful

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Speaker 1: stories of like how bad this rational choice theory, or

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Speaker 1: maybe like even this cost benefit analysis. Is you tell

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Speaker 1: a story about Robert McNamara during the Vietnam War. Can

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Speaker 1: you share that example and why it illustrates why reducing

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Speaker 1: choice to all these kinds of numbers might be so dangerous,

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Speaker 1: So for people.

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Speaker 2: In your audience who are not one hundred years old,

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Speaker 2: the United States fought a war in Vietnam. Got to

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Speaker 2: start at the beginning. It was a guerrilla war, or

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Speaker 2: what has come to be called an asymmetric war. We

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Speaker 2: had our army and big weapons, and they were fighting

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Speaker 2: in a jungle. And McNamara, who had been the head

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Speaker 2: of the Ford Motor Company, had this idea that the

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Speaker 2: way to make decisions is to rationalize and by rationalize,

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Speaker 2: he meant we ate a framework where you can do

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Speaker 2: cost benefit calculations, and then the right strategy is the

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Speaker 2: one that will produce the highest benefit per unit of cost.

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Speaker 2: So he was trying to industrialize the war. He imposed

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Speaker 2: those standards up and down the military hierarchy, and it

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Speaker 2: was a disaster. Now, the thing about an asymmetric war

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Speaker 2: is it's really hard to know who's winning. It's not

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Speaker 2: like you're gaining territory of twenty forty square miles. It's

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Speaker 2: really hard to know who's winning. So some brilliant person

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Speaker 2: had the idea that we needed a proxy for winning,

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Speaker 2: and what's a good proxy for winning casualties. If they're

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Speaker 2: losing more soldiers than we are, we must be winning.

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Speaker 2: The strategy changed to maximize enemy casualties, whether or not

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Speaker 2: they had any strategic advantage, and so now we were

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Speaker 2: just out for blood, independent of the strategic advantages that

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Speaker 2: extracting that blood might have caused. And that, it strikes me,

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Speaker 2: is the danger of taking rational choice theory too seriously.

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Speaker 2: The press to be able to quantify pushes you in

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Speaker 2: the direction of measuring what you can and pretending that

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Speaker 2: what you measure is what you care about.

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Speaker 1: But if quantifying costs and benefits isn't the answer to

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Speaker 1: life's big decisions, then what is. After the break, Barya

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Speaker 1: will share his method for making tough choices that can

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Speaker 1: lead to greater well being. The Happiness Lab will be

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Speaker 1: back in a moment. Psychologist Barry Schwartz is on a

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Speaker 1: mission to help us make better choices and ultimately to

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Speaker 1: live better lives. In his new book, Choose Wisely, he

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Speaker 1: and his co author Richard Schildenfry argue that we need

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Speaker 1: to forget the notion of quantifif buying happiness, a claim

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Speaker 1: that's pretty revolutionary in the field of decision science. After all,

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Speaker 1: even the father of behavioral economics, the Nobel Prize winning

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Speaker 1: Danny Kahneman, was famous for trying to measure happiness objectively.

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Speaker 1: I asked Barry to explain the context in which conoman

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Speaker 1: developed this method and what he and his co author

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Speaker 1: thought about it.

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Speaker 2: The idea is that when you ask people something like

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Speaker 2: all things considered, how happy are you, what they're likely

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Speaker 2: to tell you is about what experience they had in

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Speaker 2: the last fifteen minutes. So it's really very hard to

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Speaker 2: use a global question like that to get into the

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Speaker 2: details and so what works better is having people essentially

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Speaker 2: list the activities that they've engaged in in the course

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Speaker 2: of the last twenty four hours, forty eight hours, what

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Speaker 2: have you, and then ask them for each activity, on

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Speaker 2: a say, a five point scale, how much satisfaction gave them,

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Speaker 2: how happy it made them, And in this way you

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Speaker 2: can build up the atoms of happiness. So what he

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Speaker 2: was looking for was what he called objective happiness, and

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Speaker 2: the idea was that happiness objectively is simply the collection

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Speaker 2: of moments. How you feel at every moment, put together

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Speaker 2: is the sum total of your happiness in that period

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Speaker 2: of time. So that's what he was trying to do,

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Speaker 2: was to turn a subjective measure into an objective measure.

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Speaker 2: And he acknowledged that it was not the final word

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Speaker 2: on happiness, but he thought, you know, you don't get

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Speaker 2: molecules without atoms, and what he was trying to do

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Speaker 2: was develop a way of understanding the atoms of happiness.

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Speaker 2: And Schulanfry, who was a philosopher, thought this was the

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Speaker 2: most ludicrous enterprise in the world, although he also had

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Speaker 2: enormous respect for Kanneman's work. It was like, how could

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Speaker 2: somebody that's smart have such a dumb idea.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think part of it is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: Danny came from this tradition thought that they had to

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Speaker 1: figure out what the rational path was. And I think

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Speaker 1: Danny was maybe seduced by a different version.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: He wanted to do the physics of happiness. We'll find

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Speaker 1: the atoms of happiness and put them all together, that's right.

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Speaker 2: And ideally, if you find the atoms of happiness, you

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Speaker 2: can then improve happiness by doing formulating social policies that

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Speaker 2: increase the atoms of happiness. You know, you can't make

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Speaker 2: progress unless you know what progress is going to look like.

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Speaker 2: So he had that standard of rigor and precision, and

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Speaker 2: what he was trying to do is adapted to a

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Speaker 2: much fuzzier concept with the understanding that eventually it would

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Speaker 2: get built out into its full complexity.

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Speaker 1: And so talk to me about why you and shulden

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Speaker 1: Frey don't think this approach works kind of atomizing happiness

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Speaker 1: this way.

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Speaker 2: First of all, a lot depends on what you think

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Speaker 2: happiness means. And if you have what could be called

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Speaker 2: the smiley face view of happiness, then, for all I know,

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Speaker 2: Connoman's approach made perfectly good sense there are easy ways

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Speaker 2: to get that smiley face. Taking drugs is probably the

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Speaker 2: easiest way to get that smiley face and have it

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Speaker 2: all the time until you die. So you need to

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Speaker 2: start by asking what does it mean to be happy?

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Speaker 2: You know what Aristotle call you diamonia, which is real

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Speaker 2: happiness has to do with living a good life, with achieving,

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Speaker 2: with going somewhere, with doing things that are meaningful, and

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Speaker 2: much of the time what it takes for that to

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Speaker 2: happen is going to make you unhappy smiley face wise,

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Speaker 2: you know, if you want to be the best professional

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Speaker 2: basketball player in the world, you spend twenty hours a

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Speaker 2: week in the weight room. I'm not one of those people,

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Speaker 2: but I'm guessing that nobody likes spending twenty hours a

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Speaker 2: week in the wave room. What they do like is

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Speaker 2: becoming excellent at something that is significant and meaningful to them,

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Speaker 2: and they will suffer in the service of something else

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Speaker 2: that's bigger. So when you molecularize happiness the way Kanaman did,

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Speaker 2: just as a first step, what you're doing is you're

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Speaker 2: getting people to focus down on these little and almost

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Speaker 2: certainly irrelevant details of minute by minute and day to

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Speaker 2: day experience as if that's what they should be pursuing

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Speaker 2: rather than these larger objectives. Again, I don't think he

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Speaker 2: thought it was ever going to be the last word.

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Speaker 2: He says that explicitly. But the trouble is that what

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Speaker 2: often happens in science is that you never get very

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Speaker 2: far past the first word and building this great, big

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Speaker 2: structure out of these atoms. It doesn't happen. You spend

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Speaker 2: all your time with the atoms and not with the structure.

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Speaker 2: And this is especially true when the things you think

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Speaker 2: matter most are not quantifiable in the way that you

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Speaker 2: think a science should be quantifiable.

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Speaker 1: So trying to measure happiness in terms of these tiny

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Speaker 1: atoms doesn't seem to work. How do you think we

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Speaker 1: should be measuring happiness?

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Speaker 2: Well, So, when you're applying to college, we spend a

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Speaker 2: lot of time in the book following this apocryphal young

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Speaker 2: woman named Mia as she decides should I go to college?

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Speaker 2: Where should I go to college? Why am I going

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Speaker 2: to college? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So the

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Speaker 2: question is, when you're trying to decide where to go

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Speaker 2: to college, what kinds of questions should you be asking yourself?

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Speaker 2: There are some questions that it is easy to ask

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Speaker 2: and answer, like what's the average salary of people who

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Speaker 2: graduate from this or that college? It's accessible, it's quantitative.

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Speaker 2: What are the average SAT scores of admitted students? The

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Speaker 2: higher they are, the better the students. The better the students,

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Speaker 2: the better my education will be. US News and World

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Speaker 2: Report makes a living quantifying things in this way, so

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Speaker 2: that basically you can just push a button and outcomes

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Speaker 2: the answer what school should I go to? What school

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Speaker 2: should I apply to? Before you do any of that,

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Speaker 2: you really should be asking why am I going to college?

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Speaker 2: What's it for for me? What kind of a person

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Speaker 2: am I? What kind of a person do I aspire

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Speaker 2: to become? And you can't really attach value to particular

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Speaker 2: colleges or particular programs within colleges without first asking yourself

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Speaker 2: these questions, what do I want to care about? And

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Speaker 2: what do I care about? And how can I get

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Speaker 2: to be the person that I aspire to be? Are

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Speaker 2: you going to get this right? Hell? No, you know,

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Speaker 2: I mean, you're seventeen years old, you don't know yourself

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Speaker 2: well and nothing. One of the great things about college

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Speaker 2: is that it changes people. But that kind of uncertainty

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Speaker 2: is inevitable you will at least be asking the right questions,

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Speaker 2: and as you go through college, you will continue to

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Speaker 2: be asking those questions as a way of evaluating whether

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Speaker 2: you're being well educated or you know, well educated doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean they have a three point eight gpa. Being well

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Speaker 2: educated means that you're moving in the direction that you

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Speaker 2: think your life should take the trajectory you want your

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Speaker 2: life to take. No decision is final. So what we're

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Speaker 2: suggesting is that rational people are thoughtful people, they are

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Speaker 2: reflective people, and they don't slavishly pursue quantification when quantification

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Speaker 2: is inappropriate. In other words, quantification has its place, but

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Speaker 2: pretending that you have solved the problem by putting a

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Speaker 2: number on it is not going to get you to

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Speaker 2: the right place.

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Speaker 1: I love this idea, but I find it so countercultural,

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Speaker 1: Like we are so in quantification mindset and we're so

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Speaker 1: in optimization mindset. I mean, the thing you said that

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Speaker 1: I found so interesting that I agree with completely, especially

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Speaker 1: for the college decision, but for lots of decisions is

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Speaker 1: you're not going to get it right. You're not going

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Speaker 1: to get it right because you're going to change throughout

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Speaker 1: the process, and there's no right, it's going to evolve

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Speaker 1: over time. It's not a decision that's one and done.

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Speaker 1: It's one that you're going to keep making constantly. And

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Speaker 1: I think people today hate that idea. They want to,

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Speaker 1: you know, pick the perfect deeds and it's one and done.

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Speaker 1: But most of the big important things we need to

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Speaker 1: do in life to live a good life just don't

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Speaker 1: work like that, and that I think people find really scary.

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Speaker 1: I think people love the idea that they could go

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Speaker 1: on some Yelp review and find the optimal college or

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Speaker 1: the optimal house and then they're done, But the good

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Speaker 1: life doesn't work that way.

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Speaker 2: I think that's right. But I also think that this

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Speaker 2: sort of rational choice model contributes to this attitude totally.

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Speaker 2: In other words, it tells you there is a right

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Speaker 2: answer to this question, and if you do enough work,

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Speaker 2: you'll get to it. And I don't think that's the

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Speaker 2: way people used to think about their lives. You can

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Speaker 2: look back after you've made decisions, quite reasonable decisions at

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Speaker 2: the time, and learn from what went wrong, so that

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Speaker 2: maybe you'll evaluate things differently the next time. But uncertainty

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Speaker 2: is simply built into being a human being in a

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Speaker 2: social environment, and it's never one and done. It's never finished.

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Speaker 2: You should always be thinking about decisions that you've made,

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Speaker 2: and I should point out you should be giving it

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Speaker 2: attention that's proportionate to its importance. You know, I don't

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Speaker 2: want you to go to a pizza place in New

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Speaker 2: Haven and then beat yourself up for three weeks because

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Speaker 2: you you can go to the best pizza place in

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Speaker 2: New Haven. You know that's crazy, But it's not so

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Speaker 2: crazy to have those kinds of recriminations when it's about

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Speaker 2: where you spent four years going to college, or deciding

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Speaker 2: to get a PhD in psychology instead of a PhD

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Speaker 2: in economics, or deciding to marry somebody or not marry

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Speaker 2: that person. You know, you should be reflective about decisions

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Speaker 2: in some proportion to their importance, but you need to

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Speaker 2: be reflective to decide how important they are.

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Speaker 1: So let's get into the particular process we can use

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Speaker 1: to become a little bit more reflective. One of the

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Speaker 1: processes you suggest is this idea of understanding. We really

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Speaker 1: need to kind of make sure we're understanding things well.

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Speaker 1: But you don't mean in the kind of quantitative sense.

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Speaker 1: You don't mean kind of measuring things out. So what

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Speaker 1: do you mean by understanding here.

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Speaker 2: The thing about needing to use judgment is that the

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Speaker 2: right answer to almost every question is it depends what

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Speaker 2: you just said a few minutes ago. That people don't

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Speaker 2: like that, it makes them nervous, it makes them anxious.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more. You can deny that and attach

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Speaker 2: numbers to things then it doesn't depend or you can

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Speaker 2: accept it and try the best you can as an

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Speaker 2: imperfect person in a complicated world, to understand both yourself

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Speaker 2: and the environment you're about to enter, and use that

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Speaker 2: understanding always correctable to make an intelligent guess. So understanding

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Speaker 2: means a understanding yourself and b understanding the world. I'm

434
00:25:51,396 --> 00:25:55,516
Speaker 2: sure that one of the things you teach students is

435
00:25:55,556 --> 00:25:59,076
Speaker 2: how hard it is to do either of those things.

436
00:25:59,396 --> 00:26:02,836
Speaker 1: Yes, it's much harder than looking on the US News

437
00:26:02,876 --> 00:26:04,836
Speaker 1: and World Report for you know what the rank is.

438
00:26:04,956 --> 00:26:08,476
Speaker 2: Yep, it is much much harder, and sometimes that's a

439
00:26:08,596 --> 00:26:12,156
Speaker 2: fine thing to do. You know, you're stopping overnight at

440
00:26:12,196 --> 00:26:14,636
Speaker 2: a hotel on your way somewhere and you want to

441
00:26:14,636 --> 00:26:17,436
Speaker 2: find a place to eat, looking at Yelp reviews and

442
00:26:17,516 --> 00:26:20,956
Speaker 2: picking a restaurant that's got good reviews and not looking back.

443
00:26:21,276 --> 00:26:25,036
Speaker 2: That's fine, but you need to be thoughtful to know

444
00:26:25,356 --> 00:26:29,116
Speaker 2: how much effort and what kind of effort is required.

445
00:26:29,516 --> 00:26:31,716
Speaker 2: What does it mean to say that such and such

446
00:26:31,796 --> 00:26:35,956
Speaker 2: is a good school. What you really care about is

447
00:26:35,956 --> 00:26:39,436
Speaker 2: is it a good school for me? However, if you've

448
00:26:39,476 --> 00:26:42,356
Speaker 2: decided that the only reason you're going to college is

449
00:26:42,396 --> 00:26:45,396
Speaker 2: so that you can earn a six figure income right

450
00:26:45,436 --> 00:26:49,636
Speaker 2: after you get your diploma, then a good school isn't

451
00:26:49,676 --> 00:26:52,716
Speaker 2: necessarily a good school for you. It's a good school

452
00:26:52,756 --> 00:26:55,836
Speaker 2: for the world that will reward you with a six

453
00:26:55,916 --> 00:26:59,316
Speaker 2: figure salary as soon as you get your diploma. Now,

454
00:26:59,596 --> 00:27:01,796
Speaker 2: I think that's the wrong reason to choose a school,

455
00:27:01,876 --> 00:27:05,836
Speaker 2: but I wouldn't insist that you use my standards. So

456
00:27:06,076 --> 00:27:09,676
Speaker 2: you use your standards. But knowing what standards you have

457
00:27:09,916 --> 00:27:12,836
Speaker 2: tells you what to look for and how to evaluate

458
00:27:12,916 --> 00:27:16,316
Speaker 2: what you're getting. So there's a fluidity to all of this,

459
00:27:17,116 --> 00:27:21,636
Speaker 2: which we try to suggest captures the fluidity to life

460
00:27:21,756 --> 00:27:27,876
Speaker 2: as we live it. Good decisions are not error free decisions.

461
00:27:28,116 --> 00:27:30,676
Speaker 1: But they work better if we understand ourselves. And one

462
00:27:30,676 --> 00:27:32,716
Speaker 1: of the ways you suggested that we need to understand

463
00:27:32,716 --> 00:27:35,396
Speaker 1: ourselves is to pay a little bit more attention to purpose.

464
00:27:35,876 --> 00:27:37,836
Speaker 1: What do you mean by purpose in this context?

465
00:27:38,236 --> 00:27:41,916
Speaker 2: What's it for? What's college for? What's this job for?

466
00:27:42,636 --> 00:27:45,036
Speaker 2: You know? Is this job just to enable you to

467
00:27:45,076 --> 00:27:47,836
Speaker 2: live in a certain lifestyle? Though, then the only thing

468
00:27:47,876 --> 00:27:50,716
Speaker 2: you really care about is what's in your pay envelope?

469
00:27:51,396 --> 00:27:54,516
Speaker 2: Is this job for making the world a better place? Well,

470
00:27:54,556 --> 00:27:57,756
Speaker 2: now you have to scrutinize the possibilities in a different way.

471
00:27:58,716 --> 00:28:02,796
Speaker 2: Is this job for developing your own skills? That requires

472
00:28:02,796 --> 00:28:06,436
Speaker 2: still a different take. You have to be reflective and

473
00:28:06,796 --> 00:28:10,356
Speaker 2: open to changing. Your idea is about what the job

474
00:28:10,476 --> 00:28:13,396
Speaker 2: is for. And we don't have a high flute notion

475
00:28:13,476 --> 00:28:16,756
Speaker 2: about what purpose is. I mean, we're perfectly happy with

476
00:28:16,876 --> 00:28:20,676
Speaker 2: most people's intuitions, and that, it seems to me, is

477
00:28:20,836 --> 00:28:22,716
Speaker 2: essentially what's it for.

478
00:28:22,996 --> 00:28:25,356
Speaker 1: This also seems to be another area where your vision

479
00:28:25,396 --> 00:28:28,156
Speaker 1: of decision making leads to same anxiety, because when I

480
00:28:28,196 --> 00:28:30,916
Speaker 1: reflect on the purpose of different kinds of things, you know,

481
00:28:31,036 --> 00:28:33,596
Speaker 1: running this podcast, you know, being kind to my husband,

482
00:28:33,716 --> 00:28:36,796
Speaker 1: being a good person in the world, sometimes those parts

483
00:28:36,836 --> 00:28:39,756
Speaker 1: of purpose come into conflict. How di shoud we navigate

484
00:28:39,756 --> 00:28:41,356
Speaker 1: that wisely?

485
00:28:43,996 --> 00:28:49,396
Speaker 2: Yes, that's another thing that rational choice theory essentially ignores.

486
00:28:49,836 --> 00:28:54,476
Speaker 2: It treats the various components of a decision as if

487
00:28:54,556 --> 00:28:59,596
Speaker 2: they are independent from one another, whereas in fact, often

488
00:29:00,436 --> 00:29:04,236
Speaker 2: the different things you desire may come into conflict, and

489
00:29:04,276 --> 00:29:08,956
Speaker 2: what it takes to be successful in the best job

490
00:29:09,676 --> 00:29:14,196
Speaker 2: and what it takes to be successful and satisfied with

491
00:29:14,356 --> 00:29:19,396
Speaker 2: your significant other and family may put you in a

492
00:29:19,436 --> 00:29:24,116
Speaker 2: situation of perpetual conflict. And you know, this actually happened

493
00:29:24,156 --> 00:29:26,836
Speaker 2: to me. I was an ambitious person when I started

494
00:29:27,316 --> 00:29:31,156
Speaker 2: teaching at Swarthmore, and I had aspirations to become one

495
00:29:31,196 --> 00:29:34,156
Speaker 2: of the leaders in the field. But you know, then

496
00:29:34,316 --> 00:29:39,596
Speaker 2: we had our first kid, and it became obvious that

497
00:29:39,676 --> 00:29:42,996
Speaker 2: there was simply no way I could do the things

498
00:29:43,756 --> 00:29:48,156
Speaker 2: that I thought were necessary to attain a certain stature

499
00:29:48,316 --> 00:29:51,996
Speaker 2: in my field and also be a good parent. So

500
00:29:52,076 --> 00:29:58,436
Speaker 2: I immediately reset my sights. I didn't want necessarily to be,

501
00:29:58,996 --> 00:30:01,436
Speaker 2: you know, at the top of my field. I wanted

502
00:30:01,476 --> 00:30:06,036
Speaker 2: to be a respectable and respected contributor to my field.

503
00:30:06,556 --> 00:30:10,276
Speaker 2: But I was only going to do work that did

504
00:30:10,516 --> 00:30:13,756
Speaker 2: not get in the way of being a good parent,

505
00:30:14,276 --> 00:30:16,396
Speaker 2: and that was going to limit the amount of time

506
00:30:16,476 --> 00:30:21,036
Speaker 2: I spent on the job. So the conflict was obvious.

507
00:30:21,556 --> 00:30:26,116
Speaker 2: I think people who have demanding jobs and want families.

508
00:30:26,716 --> 00:30:30,716
Speaker 2: Everybody experiences this conflict. You can buy your way out

509
00:30:30,756 --> 00:30:35,076
Speaker 2: of it by getting childcare of various kinds. You can

510
00:30:35,156 --> 00:30:38,236
Speaker 2: buy your way out of it by being unfair to

511
00:30:38,276 --> 00:30:42,796
Speaker 2: your partner. And so you need to negotiate with yourself

512
00:30:43,116 --> 00:30:46,636
Speaker 2: and have your eyes open. And if this matters to you,

513
00:30:46,636 --> 00:30:49,396
Speaker 2: you've got to pay attention to aspects of the job

514
00:30:49,436 --> 00:30:53,716
Speaker 2: that probably seem fairly trivial when you're deciding what career

515
00:30:53,796 --> 00:30:58,236
Speaker 2: path to follow. So absolutely there are conflicts, and so

516
00:30:58,316 --> 00:31:02,716
Speaker 2: you're always going to end up a little disappointed with outcomes.

517
00:31:03,276 --> 00:31:05,676
Speaker 1: So to make better decisions, we need to be reflective,

518
00:31:05,876 --> 00:31:09,996
Speaker 1: open minded, self aware and accepting of ourselves. But is

519
00:31:10,036 --> 00:31:12,516
Speaker 1: Barry able to follow his advice in his own life

520
00:31:12,916 --> 00:31:15,716
Speaker 1: after the break? Well, hear how Barry applied these lessons

521
00:31:15,716 --> 00:31:18,676
Speaker 1: to a recent life altering decision, And I'll ask him

522
00:31:18,676 --> 00:31:21,436
Speaker 1: for some guidance on a big decision I'm facing myself

523
00:31:21,916 --> 00:31:22,756
Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab.

524
00:31:22,876 --> 00:31:23,636
Speaker 2: We'll be right back.

525
00:31:32,116 --> 00:31:34,196
Speaker 1: So let's talk about how we put these kinds of

526
00:31:34,196 --> 00:31:37,676
Speaker 1: decision making strategies into practice in a real world decision.

527
00:31:38,076 --> 00:31:41,116
Speaker 1: I know you've made some big decisions recently, recently retired

528
00:31:41,156 --> 00:31:44,076
Speaker 1: and moved across the country, explain how this kind of

529
00:31:44,116 --> 00:31:46,716
Speaker 1: take on the good life that's different from rational choice theory,

530
00:31:46,836 --> 00:31:48,316
Speaker 1: entered into your decision to do that.

531
00:31:48,876 --> 00:31:53,316
Speaker 2: So there was no spreadsheet calculating the costs and benefits

532
00:31:53,316 --> 00:31:56,556
Speaker 2: of staying in Philadelphia and teaching at Swarthmore and the

533
00:31:56,596 --> 00:31:59,316
Speaker 2: costs and benefits of moving to the West Coast to

534
00:31:59,396 --> 00:32:02,516
Speaker 2: be closer to my kids and my grandkids. And there

535
00:32:02,556 --> 00:32:06,316
Speaker 2: wasn't an accident that there was no spreadsheet. I, for

536
00:32:06,436 --> 00:32:11,476
Speaker 2: the life of me, can't understand I could have quantitatively

537
00:32:11,676 --> 00:32:17,076
Speaker 2: compared what was good about coming west and what was

538
00:32:17,236 --> 00:32:21,476
Speaker 2: bad about leaving the East. I loved my job as Warthmore,

539
00:32:21,996 --> 00:32:25,436
Speaker 2: I love my kids and my grandkids. I did not

540
00:32:26,116 --> 00:32:32,676
Speaker 2: know how to calculate the right decision. And so, with

541
00:32:32,956 --> 00:32:36,036
Speaker 2: the help of my moral guide, who is my wife,

542
00:32:36,356 --> 00:32:39,516
Speaker 2: we thought about it. We talked about it. We looked

543
00:32:39,556 --> 00:32:42,436
Speaker 2: at it from various different angles. What would we be

544
00:32:42,516 --> 00:32:46,636
Speaker 2: giving up, what would we be gaining? Without directly comparing them,

545
00:32:47,396 --> 00:32:51,756
Speaker 2: we sat with a potential decision. See how it felt

546
00:32:52,116 --> 00:32:56,236
Speaker 2: to imagine ourselves as mostly retired people on the West Coast,

547
00:32:56,836 --> 00:33:00,396
Speaker 2: And after a lot of uncertainty and a lot of

548
00:33:00,436 --> 00:33:02,836
Speaker 2: on the one hand, and on the other hand, we

549
00:33:02,996 --> 00:33:06,956
Speaker 2: decided that this was a point where it made sense

550
00:33:06,996 --> 00:33:09,436
Speaker 2: to make the move because the truth was is that

551
00:33:09,716 --> 00:33:12,396
Speaker 2: we could keep doing what we were doing and get

552
00:33:12,436 --> 00:33:17,436
Speaker 2: satisfaction out of it, but we really missed seeing the family.

553
00:33:18,276 --> 00:33:22,076
Speaker 2: That said. What turned out to make the decision for

554
00:33:22,196 --> 00:33:26,836
Speaker 2: us easier is that I had a temporary but serious

555
00:33:26,876 --> 00:33:31,276
Speaker 2: illness that required surgery, and both of our daughters said,

556
00:33:31,436 --> 00:33:34,876
Speaker 2: you cannot live three thousand miles away. They were right.

557
00:33:35,756 --> 00:33:38,516
Speaker 2: You know, the thing about aging is it only goes

558
00:33:38,556 --> 00:33:41,676
Speaker 2: in one direction. It was anomalous for me to have

559
00:33:41,756 --> 00:33:44,276
Speaker 2: had this problem when I did, but there was no

560
00:33:44,436 --> 00:33:47,996
Speaker 2: question that the future was going to be full of

561
00:33:48,036 --> 00:33:50,756
Speaker 2: such things, and it was going to be torture for

562
00:33:50,836 --> 00:33:54,356
Speaker 2: them to be trying to be involved in our care

563
00:33:54,876 --> 00:33:58,476
Speaker 2: at a distance of three thousand miles. And that made

564
00:33:58,756 --> 00:34:02,756
Speaker 2: what seemed a really hard decision into a much easier one.

565
00:34:03,156 --> 00:34:05,876
Speaker 2: And we're both adaptable. That's the other thing. You know.

566
00:34:05,916 --> 00:34:08,516
Speaker 2: You make a decision and it's not perfect, and then

567
00:34:08,556 --> 00:34:12,156
Speaker 2: you find kind ways to change how you live and

568
00:34:12,276 --> 00:34:16,236
Speaker 2: change what you value so that you make the decision

569
00:34:16,236 --> 00:34:18,556
Speaker 2: you made in to a better one. So I don't

570
00:34:18,556 --> 00:34:20,716
Speaker 2: want to pat myself on the back. You know, it's

571
00:34:20,756 --> 00:34:25,356
Speaker 2: not exactly like fighting in Vietnam to move to the

572
00:34:25,476 --> 00:34:31,796
Speaker 2: incredibly harsh and unpleasant Bay Area. You know, thank god

573
00:34:31,876 --> 00:34:37,236
Speaker 2: my kids don't live in Nebraska. I got nothing against Nebraska.

574
00:34:36,836 --> 00:34:39,156
Speaker 1: But harder decision, a harder decision.

575
00:34:39,236 --> 00:34:41,156
Speaker 2: Yet that would have made it a harder decision.

576
00:34:41,436 --> 00:34:43,276
Speaker 1: So it seems like what you did in that case

577
00:34:43,476 --> 00:34:45,796
Speaker 1: is to not go to the spreadsheet, to try to

578
00:34:45,876 --> 00:34:48,036
Speaker 1: go more towards what do you feel what are the

579
00:34:48,036 --> 00:34:50,316
Speaker 1: purposes in your life? You know your purpose in your work,

580
00:34:50,316 --> 00:34:52,396
Speaker 1: but maybe you're getting less. There's much more purpose in

581
00:34:52,436 --> 00:34:54,716
Speaker 1: being connected to your family. You can enhance your kid's

582
00:34:54,796 --> 00:34:57,076
Speaker 1: purpose of taking care of you. It also seemed like

583
00:34:57,116 --> 00:34:59,916
Speaker 1: you came with a lot of radical acceptance. Right, there's

584
00:35:00,036 --> 00:35:02,076
Speaker 1: not going to be a perfect decision. There's always going

585
00:35:02,116 --> 00:35:04,836
Speaker 1: to be pluses and minuses, and you kind of accepted

586
00:35:04,876 --> 00:35:07,076
Speaker 1: the uncertainty. I think this is what we don't do

587
00:35:07,116 --> 00:35:09,996
Speaker 1: in the modern age. It's always called decision uncertainty. But

588
00:35:10,076 --> 00:35:12,156
Speaker 1: we hate the uncertainty. We really want it to go away,

589
00:35:12,196 --> 00:35:14,076
Speaker 1: and we like to believe there's a way to do that.

590
00:35:14,436 --> 00:35:16,316
Speaker 1: Whereas you kind of came in with the acceptance of

591
00:35:16,436 --> 00:35:18,596
Speaker 1: like well, it's always going to be uncertain. We will

592
00:35:18,636 --> 00:35:20,156
Speaker 1: never know if it was the perfect decision.

593
00:35:20,276 --> 00:35:22,396
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you can know in advance that it

594
00:35:22,436 --> 00:35:26,036
Speaker 2: isn't a perfect decision. Yeah, any decision worth thinking about

595
00:35:26,196 --> 00:35:30,276
Speaker 2: for more than five minutes, you can virtually guarantee will

596
00:35:30,316 --> 00:35:33,636
Speaker 2: not be a perfect decision. It may be the right decision,

597
00:35:34,036 --> 00:35:37,756
Speaker 2: but it's not a perfect decision. You give things up.

598
00:35:38,156 --> 00:35:42,836
Speaker 2: Economists have a useful idea of opportunity cost. Any time

599
00:35:42,916 --> 00:35:45,996
Speaker 2: you do one thing, there are a million other things

600
00:35:46,036 --> 00:35:49,196
Speaker 2: that you will not be doing that you could be doing.

601
00:35:49,996 --> 00:35:53,516
Speaker 2: And if you think there's a way to devote time, effort,

602
00:35:53,636 --> 00:35:57,836
Speaker 2: and resources to one thing without paying a price with

603
00:35:57,956 --> 00:36:01,476
Speaker 2: respect to other things, you're just kidding yourself. So thinking

604
00:36:01,476 --> 00:36:04,156
Speaker 2: about things in that way, knowing that there will be

605
00:36:04,276 --> 00:36:07,236
Speaker 2: aspects of the life you're leaving that you will miss,

606
00:36:07,916 --> 00:36:11,036
Speaker 2: just has to be part of the drill. And the

607
00:36:11,156 --> 00:36:14,756
Speaker 2: thing I would say about spreadsheets, I think spreadsheets are

608
00:36:14,796 --> 00:36:19,036
Speaker 2: extremely useful as long as you don't fill in the cells.

609
00:36:19,636 --> 00:36:24,796
Speaker 2: It is important to identify the aspects of a decision

610
00:36:24,796 --> 00:36:29,196
Speaker 2: that matter to you and the options that are available,

611
00:36:29,796 --> 00:36:32,396
Speaker 2: and now you've done all the work that a spreadsheet

612
00:36:32,436 --> 00:36:35,396
Speaker 2: is good for because now at least you can be

613
00:36:35,516 --> 00:36:40,596
Speaker 2: reasonably sure that you are not ignoring something important. But

614
00:36:40,756 --> 00:36:44,756
Speaker 2: you can't fill the spreadsheet in with numbers and think

615
00:36:44,836 --> 00:36:47,796
Speaker 2: that this is other than a fantasy. So I'm a

616
00:36:47,836 --> 00:36:52,196
Speaker 2: fan of spreadsheets, but the notion that somehow doing a

617
00:36:52,236 --> 00:36:57,076
Speaker 2: spreadsheet makes your decision sort of automatic, that's just fantasy.

618
00:36:57,476 --> 00:36:59,636
Speaker 1: It was funny reading your book because my husband and

619
00:36:59,636 --> 00:37:01,516
Speaker 1: I are trying to make a big decision about whether

620
00:37:01,596 --> 00:37:03,796
Speaker 1: or not we should buy a house, and buy a

621
00:37:03,796 --> 00:37:05,756
Speaker 1: house in the Boston area even though we live in

622
00:37:05,796 --> 00:37:08,956
Speaker 1: the New Haven area, And when you're buying a house,

623
00:37:09,276 --> 00:37:11,836
Speaker 1: a lot of the spreadsheet choices right surprise, and the

624
00:37:11,916 --> 00:37:14,476
Speaker 1: text is and all the stuff. But reading your book

625
00:37:14,476 --> 00:37:16,356
Speaker 1: has caused me to think, maybe those aren't the things

626
00:37:16,356 --> 00:37:19,316
Speaker 1: I'm supposed to be paying attention to. So very Schwartz's

627
00:37:19,316 --> 00:37:21,636
Speaker 1: advice whether or not to buy a house, what should

628
00:37:21,636 --> 00:37:22,236
Speaker 1: I be thinking of?

629
00:37:22,516 --> 00:37:25,196
Speaker 2: Well, those things are things you should be paying attention to.

630
00:37:25,596 --> 00:37:27,876
Speaker 2: They're not the only things that you should be paying

631
00:37:27,876 --> 00:37:31,276
Speaker 2: attention to. And you shouldn't feel like you should be

632
00:37:31,356 --> 00:37:38,076
Speaker 2: able to trade off quantitative things against qualitative things. You know,

633
00:37:38,236 --> 00:37:40,916
Speaker 2: the basic question is can we afford it? Is it

634
00:37:40,956 --> 00:37:45,316
Speaker 2: financially reckless to turn liquid assets into illiquid assets. There

635
00:37:45,316 --> 00:37:50,116
Speaker 2: are all kinds of very quantifiable questions that should be

636
00:37:50,236 --> 00:37:54,276
Speaker 2: asked and answered. Then there are quality of life questions,

637
00:37:54,636 --> 00:37:58,476
Speaker 2: none of which are quantitative, and then somehow those things

638
00:37:58,516 --> 00:38:01,636
Speaker 2: have to get put together into a decision, since you

639
00:38:01,716 --> 00:38:04,516
Speaker 2: can't both buy a house and not buy a hoss.

640
00:38:05,156 --> 00:38:08,036
Speaker 2: But the notion that you know, if you do all

641
00:38:08,076 --> 00:38:13,236
Speaker 2: of your homework carefully, the decision will make itself. That's

642
00:38:13,316 --> 00:38:17,316
Speaker 2: the notion that this book is designed to wipe out

643
00:38:17,316 --> 00:38:21,636
Speaker 2: of people's minds. Decisions don't make themselves if they're being

644
00:38:21,676 --> 00:38:22,236
Speaker 2: done right.

645
00:38:22,516 --> 00:38:27,476
Speaker 1: This decision is definitely not making. There's a lot of conversation.

646
00:38:27,236 --> 00:38:30,836
Speaker 2: Giving up on good pizza if you buy a hous.

647
00:38:29,316 --> 00:38:32,836
Speaker 1: And it's true, it's true, it's true. No, it's been.

648
00:38:32,876 --> 00:38:34,876
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's it's funny making this decision

649
00:38:34,876 --> 00:38:37,876
Speaker 1: as we read this book, because I watch how quickly

650
00:38:37,916 --> 00:38:39,916
Speaker 1: our brains want to go into the numbers.

651
00:38:40,196 --> 00:38:43,196
Speaker 2: It's a way of relieving yourself of responsibility. You know,

652
00:38:43,676 --> 00:38:45,556
Speaker 2: I'm doing what the numbers tell me to do.

653
00:38:45,836 --> 00:38:47,716
Speaker 1: I mean, it's so much harder to ask the question

654
00:38:47,756 --> 00:38:49,476
Speaker 1: of like, well, what do we get out of having

655
00:38:49,516 --> 00:38:51,436
Speaker 1: a yard or not having a yard, and the social

656
00:38:51,476 --> 00:38:53,276
Speaker 1: connection we get and what does it mean to get

657
00:38:53,316 --> 00:38:56,276
Speaker 1: older and have a third floor, And like those are

658
00:38:56,516 --> 00:38:57,796
Speaker 1: hard questions.

659
00:38:57,396 --> 00:39:01,956
Speaker 2: You're very very hard questions. So yeah, how's buying is up?

660
00:39:02,756 --> 00:39:07,116
Speaker 2: It's a nightmare. I wish you the best of luck.

661
00:39:07,196 --> 00:39:08,676
Speaker 1: But thank you, thank you, thank you.

662
00:39:08,956 --> 00:39:09,196
Speaker 2: Well.

663
00:39:09,236 --> 00:39:10,916
Speaker 1: Now I have a really lovely book that I can

664
00:39:11,036 --> 00:39:14,396
Speaker 1: use to help out. That's helpful. So Barry as usual,

665
00:39:14,476 --> 00:39:15,956
Speaker 1: this is such a treat. Thank you so much for

666
00:39:15,996 --> 00:39:17,396
Speaker 1: coming back on the happiness Lab.

667
00:39:17,516 --> 00:39:19,996
Speaker 2: I feel exactly the same way, and I thank you

668
00:39:20,036 --> 00:39:23,156
Speaker 2: for being interested enough in it to have me back.

669
00:39:23,916 --> 00:39:27,236
Speaker 1: In a world where dating apps assign us compatibility percentages,

670
00:39:27,636 --> 00:39:31,596
Speaker 1: and social media defines relevance by follower accounts, and performance

671
00:39:31,676 --> 00:39:34,916
Speaker 1: metrics dictate promotions at work, it's easy to fall into

672
00:39:34,916 --> 00:39:38,596
Speaker 1: the trap of seeing everything as quantifiable, but it's important

673
00:39:38,596 --> 00:39:41,356
Speaker 1: to remember that you can't always assign numbers to life's

674
00:39:41,476 --> 00:39:44,556
Speaker 1: most important decisions. So the next time you catch yourself

675
00:39:44,636 --> 00:39:47,436
Speaker 1: ranking pros and cons or trying to calculate the best

676
00:39:47,436 --> 00:39:51,436
Speaker 1: possible choice for some complicated situation, take a pause and

677
00:39:51,596 --> 00:39:55,116
Speaker 1: just remind yourself that there's no perfect choice. Then ask

678
00:39:55,156 --> 00:39:58,116
Speaker 1: what you know about yourself, your values, and your situation,

679
00:39:58,876 --> 00:40:02,316
Speaker 1: and remember that good enough can sometimes be totally great.

680
00:40:03,396 --> 00:40:05,756
Speaker 1: That's it for our special season on my favorite new

681
00:40:05,756 --> 00:40:08,276
Speaker 1: books of twenty twenty five. But if you want even

682
00:40:08,356 --> 00:40:10,756
Speaker 1: more tips on newer books to check out, then be

683
00:40:10,796 --> 00:40:13,116
Speaker 1: sure to sign up for my newsletter, which you can

684
00:40:13,156 --> 00:40:17,036
Speaker 1: do on my website, Doctor Laurisantos dot com. That's doctor

685
00:40:17,116 --> 00:40:19,876
Speaker 1: Lauri Santos dot com. And if you like what you

686
00:40:19,916 --> 00:40:21,596
Speaker 1: hear on the show, be sure to follow me on

687
00:40:21,596 --> 00:40:25,076
Speaker 1: social media. You'll get even more evidence based happiness tips

688
00:40:25,236 --> 00:40:27,276
Speaker 1: as well as behind the scenes moments from the show.

689
00:40:27,756 --> 00:40:29,636
Speaker 1: And don't forget to drop a review of the show

690
00:40:29,716 --> 00:40:32,436
Speaker 1: wherever you listen. It really does help me spread the

691
00:40:32,476 --> 00:40:35,956
Speaker 1: science of happiness with even more people. The Happiness Lab

692
00:40:35,996 --> 00:40:38,236
Speaker 1: will be back in two weeks to celebrate the start

693
00:40:38,316 --> 00:40:41,156
Speaker 1: of basketball season. We'll meet a player who's trying to

694
00:40:41,196 --> 00:40:44,396
Speaker 1: normalize conversations about mental health and who has some great

695
00:40:44,396 --> 00:40:47,196
Speaker 1: advice for how all of us can redefine happiness and

696
00:40:47,276 --> 00:40:50,676
Speaker 1: success all that. Next time on the Happiness Lab with me,

697
00:40:50,916 --> 00:40:52,076
Speaker 1: Doctor Laurie Santos,