Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is you and me both.
Speaker 1: A few months ago, I published a piece in the
Speaker 1: Atlantic magazine on what I called the weaponization of loneliness.
Speaker 1: The piece was inspired by some really important and alarming
Speaker 1: studies put out by the United States Surgeon General, doctor
Speaker 1: Vivek Murphy.
Speaker 2: He writes about.
Speaker 1: How loneliness and social isolation are having a profoundly negative
Speaker 1: effect not only on our mental health, but also on
Speaker 1: our physical health. In fact, he says those negative impacts
Speaker 1: have reached epidemic proportions. So I argue in my article
Speaker 1: that this crisis of loneliness also has political consequences. We
Speaker 1: know that social isolation makes people, and especially disaffected young men,
Speaker 1: easy targets for those who want to sew division within
Speaker 1: our society using conspiracy theories and hateful rhetoric. As I
Speaker 1: see it, loneliness is actually helping to erode our democracy.
Speaker 1: I've been so impressed and appreciative of the work doctor
Speaker 1: Murphy is doing to tackle the loneliness epidemic head on
Speaker 1: that I wanted to talk with him and hear what
Speaker 1: he's doing and what each of us can do. But
Speaker 1: you know, there are lots of ways we can overcome
Speaker 1: our isolation. One of my favorite ways is by going
Speaker 1: to the theater or to the movies, you know, going
Speaker 1: places where we can laugh or cry or be moved
Speaker 1: to think about things in new ways together. That's why
Speaker 1: I also invited John Leguizamo to be on my show today.
Speaker 1: John is an amazing actor, writer, producer, and comedian. But
Speaker 1: he's also doing great work to strengthen our democracy by
Speaker 1: making sure our vision of America is an inclusive one.
Speaker 1: Everybody has a seat at the table, and he acknowledges
Speaker 1: and wants us to join him in recognizing the incredible
Speaker 1: contributions that Latinos have made to our country, literally from
Speaker 1: the very beginning.
Speaker 2: So stick around.
Speaker 1: I don't think you want to miss either of these conversations.
Speaker 1: First up, Doctor Vivek Murphy. Doctor Murphy has actually served
Speaker 1: as Surgeon General two times. He was first appointed by
Speaker 1: President Obama in twenty fourteen and then by President Biden
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one. He's currently in the middle of
Speaker 1: what the Office of the Surgeon General is calling that
Speaker 1: we are Made to Connect tour. He's visiting college campuses
Speaker 1: all over the country to talk with young people about
Speaker 1: how to recognize and address the harmful effects of loneliness.
Speaker 1: I am so grateful he was able to make time
Speaker 1: for us in the middle of his important tour.
Speaker 2: Hello, how are.
Speaker 3: You hi, I Secretary Clinton. I'm doing well. How are you?
Speaker 1: I'm great and I'm so looking forward to talking with you.
Speaker 1: So let's dive right in. Let's start with something that
Speaker 1: you have helped to highlight, and that is the issue
Speaker 1: of loneliness. When did you first consider the possibility that
Speaker 1: we were facing a loneliness epidemic.
Speaker 3: The truth is I saw loneliness a lot earlier in
Speaker 3: my own life, and but it took me many years
Speaker 3: to actually realize it was a broader public health issue.
Speaker 3: As a kid, I struggled a lot with a feeling
Speaker 3: of being lonely. I was a very shy, introverted kid
Speaker 3: growing up. I mean, my family had just moved to
Speaker 3: this country. I know, you know a lot of folks
Speaker 3: in my school who had a similar background or who
Speaker 3: was familiar with our traditions or anything. I felt so
Speaker 3: I felt very different. You put all that together, and
Speaker 3: it was just it was tough to sort of break
Speaker 3: in and to make friends. And so many times growing up,
Speaker 3: I actually in elementary school faked having a stomachache so
Speaker 3: that my mom would let me stay home because I
Speaker 3: wasn't scared about test her teachers. I just didn't want
Speaker 3: to walk into cafeteria one more time and not have
Speaker 3: someone to sit next to, or be on the playground
Speaker 3: and not have someone to play with two dings. I
Speaker 3: still have not told my mom to this day that
Speaker 3: I was faking those stomachaches. So but if she listens
Speaker 3: to this podcast, she will find out. But you know,
Speaker 3: I'll tell you. In later years, though, I came to
Speaker 3: see that many of the patients I was caring for
Speaker 3: in the hospital were struggling with loneliness. They wouldn't come
Speaker 3: in for that. They would come in for a blood
Speaker 3: clot or pneumonia or heart attack, But when I would
Speaker 3: sit down and talk to them, these stories about being
Speaker 3: alone would come up, like most poignantly and heartbreakingly. It
Speaker 3: would be often when we needed to sit down and
Speaker 3: have a really tough conversation with them about a new
Speaker 3: diagnosis or about having to change treatment strategies because our
Speaker 3: treatment wasn't working. I would often say, is there somebody
Speaker 3: that you want me to call to be here with
Speaker 3: you during this tough conversation, and so many of them
Speaker 3: would say, you know, I wish there was, but there's
Speaker 3: no one. I'll just do it alone. And that was
Speaker 3: always heartbreaking to hear. But even despite all of that,
Speaker 3: it really took my experience in twenty fifteen, when I
Speaker 3: began my first into search in general, traveling around the
Speaker 3: country on a listening tour and hearing about what was
Speaker 3: going on in people's lives for me to realize that, wow,
Speaker 3: there is actually a much deeper challenge of loneliness that
Speaker 3: I hadn't appreciated. And people didn't come up to me
Speaker 3: saying I'm lonely. They didn't say that, but they would
Speaker 3: be a college student who would say to me, you know,
Speaker 3: I'm surrounded by all these students on campus, but I
Speaker 3: don't really feel like anybody knows me. It was parents
Speaker 3: who would say, you know, I'm at work all days
Speaker 3: surrounded by people. Then I'm in my neighborhood surrounded by people,
Speaker 3: and I go to kids' birthday parties and I'm surrounded
Speaker 3: by people, but I don't know. I just feel like
Speaker 3: I'm having to carry all these burdens in my life
Speaker 3: by myself. So in their own way, people were telling
Speaker 3: me that they felt invisible, that they feel like if
Speaker 3: they disappeared, people wouldn't notice. And it was when I
Speaker 3: dug into it that I realized two critical things. One is,
Speaker 3: loneliness is extraordinarily common, with one and two people adults
Speaker 3: struggling with loneliness, and even much higher numbers among kids.
Speaker 3: But the second thing, I realized just how consequential it
Speaker 3: was for our health, that loneliness is so much more
Speaker 3: than a bad feeling, but it raises their risk. You know,
Speaker 3: together with isolation of us being more risk for depression, anxiety,
Speaker 3: and suicide, it increases our risk for physical illness like
Speaker 3: heart disease, premature death, dementia, and the list goes on.
Speaker 1: Well, I think that's such an important connection that you
Speaker 1: have made. And you know, it's these physical effects that
Speaker 1: really caught your attention, didn't they.
Speaker 3: That's right, and that's what made me realize that these
Speaker 3: are actually incredibly important public health issues. You know, I
Speaker 3: think so much about the history of our office, Secretary Clinton,
Speaker 3: and how we have spent time and effort and energy
Speaker 3: focused on tobacco. We've spent a lot of time talking
Speaker 3: and thinking about obesity as a public health challenge, But
Speaker 3: what's interesting is when you look at the data on loneliness,
Speaker 3: what you find is it being socially disconnected is associated
Speaker 3: with a mortality effect, and that mortality effect is on
Speaker 3: par with smoking daily. It's even greater than the mortality
Speaker 3: impact we see associated with obesity. And so to me,
Speaker 3: that's why loneliness and isolation are public health issues that
Speaker 3: should be on par with how we think about tobacco
Speaker 3: and obesity as concerns.
Speaker 1: As you know, our lifespan is going down in the
Speaker 1: United States, and there are some who have described the
Speaker 1: increase in fatality therefore lowering of our life expectancy as
Speaker 1: deaths of despair overdoses, gun violence, suicide. Is that how
Speaker 1: you also think about it?
Speaker 2: Doctor, You know, I.
Speaker 3: Do think that there's a deeper despair that's driving a
Speaker 3: lot of these negative health outcomes, mental and physical that
Speaker 3: we're worried about. You know, what's striking to me is
Speaker 3: that when people feel hopeful about the future, it turns
Speaker 3: out there's actually a fair amount of adversity that they're
Speaker 3: able to contend with and to overcome. But when we
Speaker 3: lose that hope, and very importantly, when we feel like
Speaker 3: we're up against all of these obstacles by ourselves. Then
Speaker 3: even what seemed like normal everyday adversity can be absolutely overwhelming,
Speaker 3: and I worry in particular that that's what so many
Speaker 3: people in our country are experiencing right now. One of
Speaker 3: the things that I've talked about in the past is
Speaker 3: that how emotional pain and physical pain actually feel and
Speaker 3: are interpreted very similarly in our brain. And if you
Speaker 3: think about loneliness as a deep source of emotional pain,
Speaker 3: it is not surprising that so many people may look
Speaker 3: for things to help really that pain. And it's why
Speaker 3: I think that we actually have to see loneliness is
Speaker 3: so much more than a health issue, but as a
Speaker 3: broader societal issue, because when we struggle with loneliness and communities,
Speaker 3: we know it impacts us well beyond health. The connected
Speaker 3: communities actually have lower rates of violence, They tend to
Speaker 3: have higher rates of economic prosperity, They tend to be
Speaker 3: more resilient in the face of adverse events like a
Speaker 3: hurricane or a tornado. But they also tend to be
Speaker 3: more insulated against polarization. It is so much easier to
Speaker 3: come in and to divide people and turn them against
Speaker 3: each other when they don't have connections with one another
Speaker 3: when they're feeling lonely and isolated.
Speaker 1: Well, inspired by your work, I wrote an article in
Speaker 1: The Atlantic magazine talking just about that the weaponization of loneliness,
Speaker 1: because it's not only how people themselves feel, but how
Speaker 1: those feelings can be manipulated and exacerbated by hateful rhetoric,
Speaker 1: by finger pointing and scapegoating. And it does seem as
Speaker 1: though the pandemic, with the amount of isolation that people lived,
Speaker 1: with their children out of school, with people working from home,
Speaker 1: with every kind of civic and social activity being canceled
Speaker 1: or maybe moved online but not having the same in
Speaker 1: person impact, that this problem became even more acute.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a student observation. And by the way, I
Speaker 3: so appreciated you writing about loneliness in your Atlantic piece.
Speaker 3: I heard so much feedback from people who read that
Speaker 3: article and who had not previously realized just how big
Speaker 3: a challenge loneliness was. But I think you're exactly right
Speaker 3: about COVID. It poured fuel on a fire that was
Speaker 3: burning long before, of a fire of loneliness and isolation
Speaker 3: and despair. But I'll tell you I spend a lot
Speaker 3: of time with young people when I travel around the country,
Speaker 3: and I remember being in a school in Chicago and
Speaker 3: a young man in high school telling me, he said,
Speaker 3: you know, I know, it's been a while since, you know,
Speaker 3: we were all staying at home and not in school.
Speaker 3: He's like, but I feel like I'm still learning how
Speaker 3: to socializing it. A young woman in his class actually
Speaker 3: raised her hand and she said, yeah, I see that
Speaker 3: all around me. She's like, it's like we all forgot
Speaker 3: how to be with each other. And their feedback, it
Speaker 3: turns out, is actually very common. University chaplains who I've
Speaker 3: been speaking with also, who have been charged with looking
Speaker 3: out for the health and well being of students, they
Speaker 3: too say that they feel has become much much harder
Speaker 3: in the last few years for young people to actually
Speaker 3: have conversations with one another, especially if they're worried that
Speaker 3: they may disagree with someone or have a differensive opinion.
Speaker 3: And so I do think the pandemic made things worse,
Speaker 3: and we're still recovering from that. And I think Felmin
Speaker 3: is for older people who look at that, they're like,
Speaker 3: you know, I went through the pandemic. It was rough,
Speaker 3: but now I'm fine. Now like, why are these young
Speaker 3: people having such a hard time? And I think one
Speaker 3: thing that's really important for folks out there to understand
Speaker 3: is that young people are not just younger older people,
Speaker 3: and they're fundamentally at a different phase of development of
Speaker 3: brain development, of social development. Like you miss a year
Speaker 3: in middle school, that's a year of critical social development.
Speaker 3: You're building skills, you're learning how to deal with conflict,
Speaker 3: you're learning how to start a conversation, how to negotiate
Speaker 3: differences of opinion.
Speaker 1: Well, it's also a bigger percentage of their life than
Speaker 1: it was for somebody like me. I mean a year,
Speaker 1: a year and a half, two years out of a
Speaker 1: fourteen year old's life is enormous. I know that you're
Speaker 1: currently on a tour of college campuses to talk to
Speaker 1: young people about connecting with each other.
Speaker 2: How did you make that decision?
Speaker 1: Because I can imagine with the many things that the
Speaker 1: Surgeon General has to worry about, going on a college
Speaker 1: campus tour to talk about loneliness mental health may have
Speaker 1: struck some people as well. It's a nice thing to do,
Speaker 1: but is it really important? Whereas I think what you're
Speaker 1: doing is critical.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you for that and here's why we decided
Speaker 3: to do it. For me, the issue of youth mental
Speaker 3: health rose to the top because I think of our
Speaker 3: mental health as a fuel that allows us to do
Speaker 3: everything else we do in our life, to show up
Speaker 3: for our families in school, at work, and for our communities.
Speaker 3: And what that fuel tank is running low, as it
Speaker 3: is for so many people, especially young people in our country,
Speaker 3: everything else becomes harder, and then we start to ask, well,
Speaker 3: how come young people aren't doing more of this and
Speaker 3: more of that. Well, it turns out that there is actually,
Speaker 3: I think, a common root cause here, and so that's
Speaker 3: why I wanted to focus on the issue and the tour.
Speaker 3: Our college tour is a way of actually going directly
Speaker 3: to young people and not just talking to them about
Speaker 3: this issue why it's important, but really harnessing their ideas,
Speaker 3: motivating them to help build the broader movement I think
Speaker 3: we need in our country to address this deeper youth
Speaker 3: mental health crisis, because to do it right, we've got
Speaker 3: to work on multiple fronts. Yes, we have to expand
Speaker 3: access to treatment, but we've also got to rest the
Speaker 3: deeper root causes of what's driving this crisis, whether it's
Speaker 3: how we're using social media and how it's designed, whether
Speaker 3: it's issues related to trauma and violence, with gun violence
Speaker 3: now becoming the number one cause of death among children,
Speaker 3: which is appalling. But these deeper root causes have to
Speaker 3: be addressed. And there's a cultural piece here too that
Speaker 3: we've got to address, which is where young people come in,
Speaker 3: which is we have to fundamentally change not only how
Speaker 3: we think about mental health and well being and our
Speaker 3: willingness to talk about it, but we also have to
Speaker 3: ask ourselves, I think a much more fundamental question as
Speaker 3: young people and as parents, which is, are we asking
Speaker 3: our kids to chase the right things in life? The
Speaker 3: achievement culture that we have right now, I worry has
Speaker 3: tilted in a direction that has actually become counterproductive and harmful.
Speaker 3: And I hear this directly from young people who call
Speaker 3: it hustle culture. They say, we're being asked to chase, chase,
Speaker 3: chase all of these things, fancy jobs, fancy internships, like
Speaker 3: the top gp of getting into fancy schools. Is this
Speaker 3: really going to lead us to happiness, to fulfillment? So
Speaker 3: changing all of this requires a shift in consciousness, a
Speaker 3: broader movement that we build a call for a different
Speaker 3: way of life, and that's something that I think young
Speaker 3: people are uniquely poised to do. The greatest movements in
Speaker 3: history have been led and built by young people. And
Speaker 3: that's one of the reasons I'm going to college campus
Speaker 3: is it's to talk to them directly about these issues
Speaker 3: and to help them understand that to do any of
Speaker 3: this world requires us to build community and connection to
Speaker 3: sustain and support us through the challenges ahead.
Speaker 2: Well, that's exactly right. You know.
Speaker 1: I talked with a group of young women, fifteen sixteen
Speaker 1: year old girls in high school about the article I
Speaker 1: wrote about the study that you had done, and you've
Speaker 1: done several you know, you've talked about the impact of
Speaker 1: screen life on kids, and it was so fascinating for
Speaker 1: me to hear what they had to say. You know,
Speaker 1: they said, look, that is our community. We're on our
Speaker 1: phones because that's where our community is. I said, yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's like not the real life community. And they
Speaker 1: looked at me like, well, yeah, it is our real life.
Speaker 1: And I found it fascinating to try to talk about
Speaker 1: how all the research shows that, you know, too much
Speaker 1: screen time can lead to bad feelings about yourself, It
Speaker 1: can lead to greater anxiety and depression. It can lead
Speaker 1: to young people being you know, more and more alienated.
Speaker 1: And their pushback was, yeah, but there are no places
Speaker 1: for us to go. As teenagers, they lived in a
Speaker 1: place where there were no safe opportunities for them to
Speaker 1: gather at night, to have fun and just be themselves.
Speaker 1: They said they found it very difficult to talk to
Speaker 1: their teachers and their counselors because they just didn't seem
Speaker 1: to understand even their parents. So the sense of both
Speaker 1: isolation from the larger world and the creation of what
Speaker 1: I consider to be a kind of, you know, faux
Speaker 1: community online is something that they they are not unconscious about.
Speaker 1: They understand there's a trade off. They just don't know
Speaker 1: how to do the other and they don't feel like
Speaker 1: the adults in their lives are able to connect with
Speaker 1: them either. Does this sound familiar to you.
Speaker 3: It sounds really familiar. Yeah, And that's really powerful feedback
Speaker 3: because I think what those young kids were teaching you
Speaker 3: and teaching me and teaching all of us is that
Speaker 3: these two things. I think one is that young people
Speaker 3: do have a remarkable amount of insight into what they're experiencing.
Speaker 3: But it's also the complexity of solving that. I think
Speaker 3: that one of the things you're absolutely right that we've
Speaker 3: lost are these third spaces, these places for people to
Speaker 3: actually encounter each other and gather. And one of the
Speaker 3: things I think that happens the more you lose opportunities
Speaker 3: for in person interactions is that the skills and comfort
Speaker 3: that you have interacting with people also starts to deteriorate.
Speaker 3: I'll tell you interestingly interesting happened to me during the pandemic.
Speaker 3: You know, in the first year of the pandemic, I
Speaker 3: was a private say, and I was out there like
Speaker 3: everyone else, just largely trying to protect my family, you know,
Speaker 3: my own health, et cetera. But I had much less
Speaker 3: social interaction. And even for me, it took me a
Speaker 3: while to actually come back and to get comfortable with it.
Speaker 3: I remember the first time we had parents over from
Speaker 3: our kids' school to our house, and it was as
Speaker 3: I was like, wow, this is like taking a lot
Speaker 3: of energy to like interact with everybody, you know, like
Speaker 3: it was like a muscle that I had to build
Speaker 3: back up again. But if you're really young and you're
Speaker 3: living in an environment where you've actually never been able
Speaker 3: to truly build that muscle. Because you're in an environment
Speaker 3: that's been primarily online, then you run into a real
Speaker 3: challenge in terms of comfort and the skill set itself.
Speaker 3: And I only say this because I think we both
Speaker 3: have to create those spaces in our communities and our schools,
Speaker 3: but we also have to help people develop the comfort
Speaker 3: and skills. And so I think if we just throw
Speaker 3: a bunch of people in a room together and say,
Speaker 3: get to know each other, interact, you know, it may
Speaker 3: or may not happen. But if we create opportunities for
Speaker 3: them with a little bit of structur and a little
Speaker 3: bit of time to actually get to know one another,
Speaker 3: to learn about each other, and then we give them
Speaker 3: more time to interact, that can make a world of difference.
Speaker 3: And that's what I see actually happening in various schools
Speaker 3: across the country, where young people are starting to build
Speaker 3: programs where they bring peers together to actually learn about
Speaker 3: one another, to actually do activities together, sometimes their service
Speaker 3: projects and engagements, and that kind of in person interaction
Speaker 3: can actually help people to get more comfortable with in
Speaker 3: person interaction.
Speaker 2: We're taking a quick break. Stay with us.
Speaker 1: On your tour, your college campus tour. You are putting
Speaker 1: for something called the five for five Challenge.
Speaker 3: What is that, doctor, Yes, So, one of the things
Speaker 3: we want to do on the college campus Tour, which
Speaker 3: we call our We Are Made to Connect Tour, is
Speaker 3: we want to give young people to experience connection. Let's
Speaker 3: just talk about it and given the experience of it.
Speaker 3: So we designed something called our five for five Challenge
Speaker 3: where we're asking people for five days to take five actions,
Speaker 3: one action each day that will give them the experience
Speaker 3: of connection. It could come on one of three forms.
Speaker 3: You can either express gratitude to someone, you can extend
Speaker 3: support to someone, or you can ask for help. We
Speaker 3: do the first one actually with everyone like in the
Speaker 3: auditorium or the sting that we're in, and what we
Speaker 3: do is certainly very simple. We ask them to pull
Speaker 3: out their phone and to compose an email or a
Speaker 3: text to someone in their life who they're grateful for.
Speaker 3: It could be for something very simple. Maybe it was
Speaker 3: someone who a few years ago showed up for you
Speaker 3: when you were having a really hard day. Maybe it's
Speaker 3: somebody who knew that you got a big disappointment that
Speaker 3: maybe you've got a bad grade on a test, or
Speaker 3: you didn't get picked for the team that you tried
Speaker 3: out for and they just showed up to listen to you.
Speaker 3: Whatever it was like, what they made you grateful for them.
Speaker 3: We asked people to reflect on that and then to
Speaker 3: send them a short message. The whole thing takes about
Speaker 3: ninety seconds, and at the end of that we ask
Speaker 3: everyone who has sent a message of gratitude to turn
Speaker 3: the flashlight on on their phone and to hold it
Speaker 3: up and we dim the lights in the auditorium and
Speaker 3: what you see is so beautiful. It's light after light
Speaker 3: to sort of pop up and just fill the entire auditorium.
Speaker 3: You look around you and you realize, wow, there are
Speaker 3: all of these rays of hope that have just gone
Speaker 3: out into the world. People are going to receive those
Speaker 3: messages that people just sent, They're going to feel appreciated,
Speaker 3: They're going to feel connected, and it's going to feel
Speaker 3: good to know that you helped create that feeling. So
Speaker 3: we ask people to do something like this, an active
Speaker 3: connection over five days, and then to share with us
Speaker 3: how they're feeling. This is something that anyone can do.
Speaker 3: The people listening to our conversation today could do. And
Speaker 3: I guarantee you at the end of those five days,
Speaker 3: it will feel better, you'll feel more whole.
Speaker 2: Oh I love that.
Speaker 1: And I know that there's a lot of literature, research
Speaker 1: disciplines of all kinds that you really are calling on
Speaker 1: as you talk about that, because you know, gratitude is
Speaker 1: an attitude, and if you make yourself do it, and
Speaker 1: you force yourself to say, Okay, what am I grateful
Speaker 1: for despite how hard the day was, it changes your
Speaker 1: brain chemistry, doesn't it.
Speaker 3: It really does. And you know one thing is it's
Speaker 3: very difficult to be grateful and to be angry at
Speaker 3: the same time.
Speaker 1: Exactly, and sadly, there are people in our politics today
Speaker 1: who want to get you angry and keep you angry.
Speaker 1: So I have to ask you, as you've traveled around,
Speaker 1: as you've talked about these studies and reports that you've issued,
Speaker 1: are you feeling more or less hopeful than you did before?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 3: My gosh, I'm feeling so much more hopeful. Of all
Speaker 3: the public health issues that I've worked on over the
Speaker 3: last however many years, there is no issue that I
Speaker 3: have found has resonated more strongly with the public than
Speaker 3: this issue of loneliness and social connection. And I think
Speaker 3: it's because so many people have been feeling it. When
Speaker 3: I go into a room, I'll ask people how many
Speaker 3: of you know someone in your life who's struggling with loneliness.
Speaker 3: I'd say ninety five plus percent of the hands go up.
Speaker 4: Wo.
Speaker 3: So it is so commonly and deeply felt, but rarely
Speaker 3: talked about. And I think the opportunity to actually get
Speaker 3: at the heart of what is causing and driving so
Speaker 3: much as despair, I think it is one that people
Speaker 3: are embracing, so one that makes me feel hopeful. But
Speaker 3: the second thing that's happened as we've had these conversations
Speaker 3: is I've found people, especially young people, starting to take
Speaker 3: action in their own communities to build connection. And that
Speaker 3: is actually the great thing about rebuilding the social fabric
Speaker 3: of our country is that it's something that we can
Speaker 3: each start doing, Like we don't have to wait for
Speaker 3: an Act of Congress.
Speaker 2: Literally or figuratively.
Speaker 3: We can start taking action in our day to day
Speaker 3: lives and we can feel the results of it within
Speaker 3: short order. It's why I just I feel compelled to
Speaker 3: want to do everything I can to build a broader
Speaker 3: movement around social connection. And this is partly about the
Speaker 3: practices you know of connecting and building those skills, exercising
Speaker 3: that muscle and creating spaces for people to connect at
Speaker 3: a really deeper level. Like to me, this is also about,
Speaker 3: I would say, the deeper values that we want to
Speaker 3: be reflected, like in our lives and in our communities.
Speaker 3: What worries me is hearing so often from people who
Speaker 3: say to me, Vivik, you know, it feels like it's
Speaker 3: become more important to be right than to be kind,
Speaker 3: more important to be powerful than to be just. I
Speaker 3: hear that again and again and again, and I think
Speaker 3: for many people they've come to wonder, like, what are
Speaker 3: the values that are driving us but in our hearts?
Speaker 3: Like when I sit down and talk to people about
Speaker 3: people know like what values they fundamentally want to be
Speaker 3: reflected in their child's lives. People, I think, still, despite
Speaker 3: the cynicism that we may you know, encounter and see,
Speaker 3: people still do think it's important to serve others. They
Speaker 3: think it's important to be considerate and to be kind.
Speaker 3: They think that relationships and our friendships are important and
Speaker 3: worth investing in. I think we have the opportunity to
Speaker 3: bring those kind of values back to the forefront, to
Speaker 3: a place where they actually inform how we shape our lives,
Speaker 3: and they can do so, in fact, by helping us
Speaker 3: build stronger connections. And when we do that, those values
Speaker 3: can not just affect how we interact with other people,
Speaker 3: but they can start to impact how we think about
Speaker 3: the programs we support, the issues we advocate for, the
Speaker 3: leaders we choose, the workplaces we structure, the curricula that
Speaker 3: we build for our kids. Because I'll tell you this
Speaker 3: at I and feel it strongly now as a parent,
Speaker 3: I think it's just as important for our kids to
Speaker 3: learn how to understand their emotions, how to build healthy relationships,
Speaker 3: how to manage conflict, how to have real conversations, especially
Speaker 3: when we disagree, but do so respectfully. It just is
Speaker 3: important for them to build those skills, I believe, as
Speaker 3: it is for them to learn how to read and
Speaker 3: to write, and to learn about history and economics.
Speaker 1: Oh amen, Amen, doctor Murphy, that is music to my heart.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for spending time talking to me
Speaker 1: about these profoundly important issues, and I just wish you
Speaker 1: the very very best as you continue to try to
Speaker 1: talk about this, make connections and especially reach out to
Speaker 1: our young people.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much. I really enjoyed this conversation.
Speaker 3: I'm so glad that we had this time together, and
Speaker 3: thank you again for all your focus and concern on
Speaker 3: this issue of social connection and loneliness. It's so important,
Speaker 3: so I'm grateful for you.
Speaker 1: If you want to take up the five for five
Speaker 1: Connection Challenge, and really I think every one of us should,
Speaker 1: you can find more information about it online. As I
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, When I'm feeling low and perhaps even feeling
Speaker 1: oh kind of despairing about the state of the world,
Speaker 1: there's nothing I like better than catching a live theater
Speaker 1: performance to lift my spirits.
Speaker 2: And my next guest has.
Speaker 1: Taken audiences on so many amazing theatrical journeys. John Leguizamo
Speaker 1: had his first breakout performance in nineteen ninety one with
Speaker 1: a one man show called Mambo Mouth. Since then, he's written, produced,
Speaker 1: and performed in multiple Broadway shows. He's starred in a
Speaker 1: bunch of films like Chef and maybe you heard his
Speaker 1: voice in Disney's in Canto, or perhaps you caught him
Speaker 1: on his fantastic MSNBC TV series Leguizamo Does America, where
Speaker 1: he travels across the country, bringing viewers inside some of
Speaker 1: America's thriving Latino communities places like Miami, Chicago, and of
Speaker 1: course LA But honestly, what I know John best for
Speaker 1: is the way he shows up for his Latino brothers
Speaker 1: and sisters over and over again. He mobilizes them to
Speaker 1: make their voices heard. He pushes the entertainment industry to
Speaker 1: represent them, and he celebrates the contributions they've made to
Speaker 1: our country and the many ways they come together in community.
Speaker 1: It was such a personal delight to speak with him
Speaker 1: for the show.
Speaker 4: Hi, John, Hillary, how are you so good to see you?
Speaker 1: It is great to see you. Thank you for doing this,
Speaker 1: and I'm glad you got the Knicks cap on.
Speaker 2: You're ready, ready for the season. This will be the one, John,
Speaker 2: This is This does like the one.
Speaker 4: I mean, I thought it was going to be for
Speaker 4: the Mets as well, but it was not.
Speaker 1: The Cats were such a disappointment, crazy disappointment, and the
Speaker 1: Yankees were also disappointing. So yeah, I mean, well, I'm
Speaker 1: going to get started because I'm so excited to talk
Speaker 1: to you.
Speaker 2: Welcome the show, John.
Speaker 1: It is such a pleasure for me to have this
Speaker 1: chance to talk with you. You know, earlier in this episode,
Speaker 1: I talked with Surgeon General Murphy, who has really zeroed
Speaker 1: in on what he calls an epidemic of loneliness and
Speaker 1: isolation in the country, and he has some ideas about
Speaker 1: how to get ourselves out.
Speaker 2: Of it and what we individually can do.
Speaker 1: But I thought you'd be a great person to talk
Speaker 1: to because your work serves as an antidote to a
Speaker 1: lot of those feelings. And you also are a person
Speaker 1: who wants to create community and connections wherever you go.
Speaker 1: So let's get into it now. You were born in Bogota, Colombias,
Speaker 1: but moved to New York City when you were four.
Speaker 1: How is that immigrant experience for you and your family?
Speaker 2: Wild?
Speaker 4: You know, I'm only just now being able to unpack
Speaker 4: it and tease it out, because you can't in the
Speaker 4: moment understand the huge impacts on your family and mental
Speaker 4: health and everything. You know, just until now recently, I
Speaker 4: just realized the PTSD my parents suffered. You know, I
Speaker 4: had no idea until I was old enough, and and
Speaker 4: and thousands of hours in therapy to understand that they
Speaker 4: left everything they knew, all their friends, all their family,
Speaker 4: their language, their culture, came into a world they knew
Speaker 4: nothing nothing. Uh so they had that you know, but
Speaker 4: with landed in jackson I's Queens because you know, every
Speaker 4: friend says, yeah friends, you know, some Colombians said, you know,
Speaker 4: it is the place that come and there are more
Speaker 4: people like us, and everybody speaks Spanish from this or
Speaker 4: they came here. We lived in a one apartment that
Speaker 4: was so small. The furniture was painted on the walls,
Speaker 4: you know, the chairs were painted. There were no chairs,
Speaker 4: and we had a murphy bed, you know those things
Speaker 4: that it goes up in the morning, so you have
Speaker 4: a living room, it comes down.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it puts it against the wall exactly.
Speaker 4: And you put a tablecloth on it for dinner. And
Speaker 4: then if you take the tablecloth in, it's dead time.
Speaker 4: And then my parents were hard working. The next year
Speaker 4: we were all we all slept, all four of us
Speaker 4: slept there with my brother. And then the following year
Speaker 4: my parents got a place where they had their own room.
Speaker 4: And then they kept working hard and hard, and then
Speaker 4: eventually my father bought a house in Queen's and rented
Speaker 4: all the rooms. So I grew up with strangers all
Speaker 4: my life, five different strangers. I learned how to higiene
Speaker 4: like in seconds flat to get into that bathroom because
Speaker 4: I shared a bathroom with five different strangers.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but boy, that's an incredible story of hard work
Speaker 1: and determination of your parents. When did you decide that?
Speaker 1: You know, hey, I kind of like this acting. Was
Speaker 1: it when you were dodging the strangers of the house?
Speaker 1: I mean, where did that come from?
Speaker 4: I was kind of like this class clown. I was,
Speaker 4: you know, my parents said your betty hype it. That
Speaker 4: was for like you know what they called adhd back then.
Speaker 4: So I had a lot of energy and couldn't be
Speaker 4: still and I had to entertain and do voices and characters.
Speaker 4: And I grew up in Jackson Heights, which is the
Speaker 4: most diverse place in the world.
Speaker 2: It is.
Speaker 1: People don't know that Queens is the most diverse county
Speaker 1: in the United States and one of the most diverse
Speaker 1: places in the world.
Speaker 2: And Jackson Heights truly is.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's incredible. So I grew up, you know where
Speaker 4: the nice Jewish family that lived the cross the steper
Speaker 4: most and what abut us for it? For say, and
Speaker 4: then the Jamaican people are be coming out to enjoying
Speaker 4: the black parties and everything be great blood clot.
Speaker 2: Lots of Indian food, too.
Speaker 4: He has wonderful Indian food everywhere. I loved it, everything
Speaker 4: but wonderful. And you know, every Latin diaspora is there.
Speaker 4: Chile and Sargentines, Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Cubans, Colombians, Ecuadorians, Peruvians
Speaker 4: were all there. And so I had all this access
Speaker 4: to accents and voices, and I would act out in class,
Speaker 4: always wanted to be the class clown, and it was
Speaker 4: very competitive. In my school. There was this lunch table
Speaker 4: that if you crack the best jokes you got to
Speaker 4: sit at. But if you adn't crack a good joke,
Speaker 4: you couldn't sit at that table.
Speaker 2: So savage.
Speaker 4: That was savage. So I learned to start writing. That's
Speaker 4: when I started writing my jokes. I would prepare att
Speaker 4: I could win so I could be at that table.
Speaker 4: And that's when I started writing.
Speaker 1: Were there people you started to look up to when
Speaker 1: you began to talk about, Hey, you know, I might
Speaker 1: try to do this for a living. I might, you know,
Speaker 1: take my jokes and leave the high school cafeteria and
Speaker 1: go somewhere with them.
Speaker 4: You know, my math teaching misuzufa. You know, I'm a
Speaker 4: big believer in mentors. And that's why I try to
Speaker 4: be a mentor myself. I think when you come from
Speaker 4: the hood and underprivileged, you need that person that comes
Speaker 4: to you and puts their hand on your shoulder and
Speaker 4: says you're worthwhile. You have something to offer the world,
Speaker 4: because you don't know that. You just all the time,
Speaker 4: especially being a Latin man in America, where you don't
Speaker 4: see yourself reflected anywhere, positively or otherwise. You're not in
Speaker 4: the history classes, you're not in the literature classes, you're
Speaker 4: not in the math classes. It's no one that looks
Speaker 4: like you in the books you're reading anywhere. You know,
Speaker 4: Latin children are the least pictured aracters in children's books,
Speaker 4: So it starts there. You know, you're more likely to
Speaker 4: see an animal than you see a Latin face as
Speaker 4: a child. And then John Hopkins did a study and
Speaker 4: found out that eighty seven percent of our contributions, Latin
Speaker 4: people's contributions to the making of America are not in
Speaker 4: history textbooks, and the thirteen percent that is there gets
Speaker 4: like less than five sentences. So how do you build
Speaker 4: yourself for it? You know? And so this math teach
Speaker 4: Misusufa says to me, you know, you miss no Soila,
Speaker 4: squeeze Moe. You can never say money, mister Miller Grisomo,
Speaker 4: mister peptibismo, you have the attention span of a sperm.
Speaker 4: If they can make penicillin out of moldy bread, we
Speaker 4: can do something with you. And he suggested I take
Speaker 4: acting classes, you know, and I yes. And it takes that,
Speaker 4: you know, it takes a lot of people telling you
Speaker 4: you're worthwhile, that you have something, and then then the
Speaker 4: coin dropped in, you know, the proverbial coin.
Speaker 2: Aha, yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: Live theater is an art form that literally brings people
Speaker 1: together to share an experience for a certain amount of time,
Speaker 1: and it's one of the reasons why I love it
Speaker 1: so much. And I know you started in live theater
Speaker 1: and a breakout moment for your career was your solo
Speaker 1: play Mombo Mouth, where you played a whole bunch of characters,
Speaker 1: and I think we got just a little taste of
Speaker 1: how quickly you can move from you know, using your
Speaker 1: voice to create different characters. Can you describe that play
Speaker 1: for our listeners and how it came about?
Speaker 4: Oh? Sure, sure, So here I was at NYU going
Speaker 4: to college, right, and I'm paying the same as everybody,
Speaker 4: and I'm getting a's actually, and I'm with dB Sweeney
Speaker 4: and Edwin McCarthy and They're going to five editions a
Speaker 4: day and I'm going to one every five months. And
Speaker 4: the cast breakdown was like Jim Crow was like white actor,
Speaker 4: white lead, white romantic lead, white doctor, white lawyer, you know,
Speaker 4: and they wouldn't see you because you're Latin whatever anyway,
Speaker 4: So I knew my chances were different. So I went
Speaker 4: to the performance arts pace, comedy space wherever they would
Speaker 4: let me, basically, and so I started creating these characters
Speaker 4: in these performance art spaces downtown that were thriving. All
Speaker 4: the creativity of New York City was downtown East Village
Speaker 4: and there are all these great clubs, Gusta House, a
Speaker 4: Dixon Place as one two, the kitchen knitting factory, Home
Speaker 4: La Cucaraate. It was all these places where you could
Speaker 4: test out crazy material, political material, you could be naked,
Speaker 4: you could do whatever you wanted, but it had to
Speaker 4: be art. So I started doing my characters there and
Speaker 4: then eventually I had like ten and I put them
Speaker 4: together with the help of Win Handman, who had put
Speaker 4: together Eric Pogosian's work, and I had seen Lily Tomlin's
Speaker 4: masterful piece and will be Goldberg's life changing piece for me,
Speaker 4: and I wanted to do something, make it different in
Speaker 4: making my own, and so I did mamble Mouth and
Speaker 4: got a brave review from the Times, which back then
Speaker 4: the Times could make you a break. And then in
Speaker 4: my theater.
Speaker 2: Was Arthur Miller, the Arthur Miller.
Speaker 4: I shook his hand, Sam Shephard, Cow Pacinos, Oh, come on,
Speaker 4: Oh Julia. The list goes on and on. It was incredible,
Speaker 4: and I learned to run outside quickly before they could
Speaker 4: all escape because I knew that the magnitude of these people,
Speaker 4: and I wanted to shake every single one of their hands.
Speaker 2: Wow. I love that story.
Speaker 1: And you then followed up Mambo Mouth with five other
Speaker 1: solo pieces on stage, and most recently, the highly acclaimed
Speaker 1: Latin History for Morons.
Speaker 2: First of all, I love the title, Oh God. Every
Speaker 2: time I look at.
Speaker 1: It or rehear it or read it, I start laughing.
Speaker 1: So is that a way kind of using your humor
Speaker 1: and your creativity to kind of make the point like, Hey, people,
Speaker 1: we've been here a long time, and we've done a
Speaker 1: bunch of stuff, and I'm going to give you the
Speaker 1: short version.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, definitely, I mean, obviously Latin history morons.
Speaker 4: I was a moron because I was like, wait a minute,
Speaker 4: I didn't know all these incredible facts about our contributions
Speaker 4: to the making of America. We built America alongside Afro Americans,
Speaker 4: but in the Southwest and the West. You know, we
Speaker 4: built the railroads when our Chinese brothers and sisters were
Speaker 4: kicked out. We built all the infrastructure bridges of everything
Speaker 4: in the Southwest and the West. From the eighteen hundreds,
Speaker 4: you know, were the only minority to have fought in
Speaker 4: every single war America has ever had. And I'm talking
Speaker 4: about the American Revolution. Ten thousand unknown Latino patriots fought.
Speaker 4: And then I did the math. I was like, because
Speaker 4: I'm a rain man of Latin facts, and I was like,
Speaker 4: wait a minute. How many tot troops were in the
Speaker 4: American Revolution? Typed it out? Eighty thousand. We were one
Speaker 4: in eight. So we are the sons and daughters of
Speaker 4: the American Revolution. Juan Mete I is from Cuba, raised
Speaker 4: two million dollars for his bromance George Washington from Cuba,
Speaker 4: Mexico and Spain. These facts started becoming available to me
Speaker 4: and it changed me my chromosomes, my DNA and everyone
Speaker 4: who saw it. And I made it funny because even though.
Speaker 2: These facts are serious, but yeah.
Speaker 4: They change you. I have to seduce an audience, even
Speaker 4: a Latin audience, I have to seduce them to wanting
Speaker 4: to know these facts, you know. So yeah, I love
Speaker 4: that challenge.
Speaker 1: But you know, through that challenge, you're doing a couple
Speaker 1: of things. Not only you know, successfully performing in front
Speaker 1: of audiences that keep coming back for more, but you're
Speaker 1: also you're expanding the definition of America for people who
Speaker 1: don't understand the contributions of everybody who came before. I mean,
Speaker 1: we talk about community, we talk about connection, we can
Speaker 1: also about country. And you know, I've always loved the
Speaker 1: idea that America was this place where people came from everywhere,
Speaker 1: made their stake, worked hard, you know, got things done,
Speaker 1: raised their kids, kept going. And you know that it's
Speaker 1: frightening to some people in America today if they don't
Speaker 1: look like you and worship like you, and think like
Speaker 1: you and vote like you, and you in a I
Speaker 1: would say somewhat kind of quiet and very subversive way
Speaker 1: are expanding that definition. I mean, what is somebody going
Speaker 1: to say when you say, hey, did you know there
Speaker 1: was this Latin guy who knew George Washington and he
Speaker 1: went off and raised money for the Revolutionary Army?
Speaker 2: Hey, what do you think about that?
Speaker 1: It just scrambles their brain and maybe it opens up
Speaker 1: a little space so that they can see that we
Speaker 1: all are part of this great American community. You know,
Speaker 1: one unique performance you gave was of your play Ghetto Clown,
Speaker 1: and you performed it at Rikers Island. And for listeners
Speaker 1: who aren't familiar with New York City, that's New York
Speaker 1: City's biggest jail.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: Anybody who gets arrested, if they're going to be remanded,
Speaker 1: they go to a Rikers Island, which is a really,
Speaker 1: really tough place. Why why was it important to bring
Speaker 1: your comedy to that venue in person?
Speaker 2: And how did it go? How were you received?
Speaker 4: It was fascinating because you know, I know that the
Speaker 4: majority of the population there is Latino and black mm hmm,
Speaker 4: you know, and that's the community I grew up in,
Speaker 4: so I know they're ignored. I've been part of GOSO
Speaker 4: Get Out, Stay Out for ten years. Mark Goldsmith, this
Speaker 4: man who should be a national treasurer has run it
Speaker 4: for thirty years, you know, raises the money himself, and
Speaker 4: it's a high school at Rikers and gives these kids
Speaker 4: a chance to study and make something of themselves, and
Speaker 4: they do. Ninety nine percent of them never return back
Speaker 4: to the system. So I felt like I had to
Speaker 4: go in there and bring something to them. And I
Speaker 4: didn't know how I was going to be received. You know,
Speaker 4: I thought they might think I'm corny now because I've
Speaker 4: been you know, I'm no longer in the hood, and
Speaker 4: so I didn't know. I didn't know how They're going
Speaker 4: to take my humor who I am, But they were.
Speaker 4: They were. They were a captive audience. They laughed. All
Speaker 4: these kids laughed, the guards laughed. They were all really digging.
Speaker 4: I don't even think there was my jokes. They were enjoying.
Speaker 4: It was enjoying that somebody came in to give them something.
Speaker 4: That's what they were digging. And obviously the little gravy
Speaker 4: that you know, they heard cultural things, a little code
Speaker 4: switching and you know, little things that light up in
Speaker 4: their heads. Go, oh, that's that's how I grew up.
Speaker 4: That's how my mom talks, that's how my uncle talks.
Speaker 1: But you know what else I really like about this
Speaker 1: is that you went into a place that you didn't
Speaker 1: have to go. There was nobody saying, Hey, for your career, John,
Speaker 1: you should go to Rikers and do you know a
Speaker 1: performance for the inmates. You did it because you sense
Speaker 1: that connection. You know, as you said, these these were
Speaker 1: like the kids you grew up with. It's that kind
Speaker 1: of reaching out. You know, always tell people when they
Speaker 1: are saying they don't know what to do. You know,
Speaker 1: they feel like their life doesn't have any meaning. We'll
Speaker 1: go out and help somebody, go out and do something
Speaker 1: for somebody else. It's amazing how that rebounds to you.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's so obvious, But it takes doing it
Speaker 1: for people to feel it, doesn't it.
Speaker 4: Yeah? I mean, yeah, you know you said it's so right, Hillary.
Speaker 4: I felt like them, you know, I felt like I
Speaker 4: could have been them, and I felt I had to
Speaker 4: go in there and give them some hope. I just
Speaker 4: felt I needed to do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I sat with them. I sat with them,
Speaker 4: We talked. They made me eat their food, which was disgusting,
Speaker 4: but they made me. They go, you got it, John,
Speaker 4: I go, No, don't make me dude, I gave me.
Speaker 4: I performed for two hours for you coming. No, you
Speaker 4: gotta eat it. I go all right, it was all great.
Speaker 4: It was cabbage, ham, potatoes in the gray water, flavorless.
Speaker 4: It was nasty.
Speaker 2: And these are.
Speaker 1: People who have not, let me stress, been convicted of anything.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: This is not a prison.
Speaker 1: This is a jail, and this is a jail where
Speaker 1: people are waiting to be tried, and we treat them
Speaker 1: like the most hardened, worst criminals in the universe.
Speaker 2: It's disgusting, it is.
Speaker 4: But Hillary, You're incredible. I mean, nobody else would have
Speaker 4: this understanding of the system, but you. I love that.
Speaker 4: I love that about you. How you have your bandwidth
Speaker 4: of knowledge is so intense.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I've spent a lot of time in
Speaker 1: my life trying to figure out how to fix things.
Speaker 1: And you know, a lot of things sort of defy fixing.
Speaker 1: But you got to keep thinking about it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you got it. You got to keep trying to
Speaker 4: fix it.
Speaker 2: You can't give up.
Speaker 4: You can't, No, you can't.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: And it's also amazing to me how some kind of kindness,
Speaker 1: some kind of gesture of concern, goes such a long way,
Speaker 1: and that doesn't cost anybody anything. Like you're talking about
Speaker 1: your math teacher. He could have said to you, eh,
Speaker 1: you're not good in math, You're not going to be anything. No,
Speaker 1: Instead he said, hey, come on, I think I know
Speaker 1: where you could really excel. That was a kindness and
Speaker 1: you know, you pay it forward, you keep going, and uh,
Speaker 1: I just wish we could get back to that.
Speaker 4: Yes, America is losing that. We've we were starting to
Speaker 4: lose our respect for each other with.
Speaker 2: Our empathy, I mean.
Speaker 4: Empathy, Uh, decency, These are values that no longer are
Speaker 4: important to Americans. So a lot of America's not to everybody.
Speaker 4: Everybody deep down wants that and.
Speaker 2: We have, but we have to keep modeling it and
Speaker 2: showing it. Yeah, we'll be right back.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: In addition to.
Speaker 1: All this creative work that you have been doing, you've
Speaker 1: also been a really strong advocate for Latino representation in
Speaker 1: me in politics, in government, every walk of life. And
Speaker 1: you've made the point over and over again that although
Speaker 1: Latinos make up what approximately nineteen twenty percent now of
Speaker 1: the American population, there is such a tiny slice of
Speaker 1: that represented as main characters in movies and television. Among
Speaker 1: producers and directors. Why is this such a persistent problem.
Speaker 1: There is an audience. We know there's an audience.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Before I get into that, let me give you
Speaker 4: the numbers, because it's it's horrifying too and disgusting. With
Speaker 4: thirty percent of the US box office, four billion dollars
Speaker 4: in streaming in America, we just hit a milestone. We
Speaker 4: add three point two trillion dollars to the GDP annually.
Speaker 4: We have a buying power in America three point four
Speaker 4: trillion dollars.
Speaker 2: Wow. Wow, We put all.
Speaker 4: This money into America and we get nothing back. We
Speaker 4: are less than two percent of the leads and films,
Speaker 4: less than one percent of the stories being told, with
Speaker 4: less than zero point zero eight of the actors on Broadway.
Speaker 4: Even though we're equal to whites in New York City
Speaker 4: and population whites are thirty two percent of the population,
Speaker 4: we're like thirty one percent and just invisible everywhere. Zero
Speaker 4: percent of this of the top executives in Hollywood, and
Speaker 4: I use Hollywood because it's easier to see, to see
Speaker 4: the exclusion, the invisibility, our lack of access. Because it's
Speaker 4: happening in the corporate world, banking, tech, and medicine, everywhere.
Speaker 4: I hear talk to Latin executives everywhere who say, I
Speaker 4: work three times as hard as everybody for a small salary,
Speaker 4: and I see everybody getting promoted around me except me,
Speaker 4: and I experienced it in Hollywood. You know. I bring
Speaker 4: huge numbers, over a billion dollars worth of movies with
Speaker 4: ice age and conto, all the big hits that I've
Speaker 4: been in, and yet it's always still a struggle to
Speaker 4: get a role because you know, when they do mad Men,
Speaker 4: they didn't think Latin people existed. When they do All
Speaker 4: the Crown, you know, there's never a Latin person there.
Speaker 4: There's so many ways of excluding us until we get
Speaker 4: executives who look like us, you know, like Saysar Conde, chairman.
Speaker 2: Of NBC, has that made a difference, huge difference.
Speaker 4: I pitched this one show, The Guzama Does America for
Speaker 4: six years to everybody, everybody, you name it, the network,
Speaker 4: the studio. Nobody got it until Saysar Conde of NBC chairman,
Speaker 4: said let's do it. And my show is the number
Speaker 4: one hit for the last three years, original hit on MSNBC.
Speaker 4: Then we're going to season two.
Speaker 2: Okay, tell everybody the name of the show.
Speaker 4: Like Guizamo does America, like you know, Debbie does Dallas.
Speaker 4: I'm doing the same thing that Debbie did to Dallas
Speaker 4: to America.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you know part of that. I'm going to
Speaker 1: let that pass. I was thinking more like Anthony Bourdaine
Speaker 1: or you know, Stanley Tucci, or you know somebody like that.
Speaker 2: Those are more my comparisons. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, you make such a great point, and I
Speaker 1: do think I don't want to overstate this point because
Speaker 1: there are many many reasons why people feel disconnected isolated.
Speaker 2: But if you don't see people who.
Speaker 1: Look like you, if you don't feel that you are
Speaker 1: welcomed into the larger community, that has an impact on
Speaker 1: how you think of yourself, and it starts to eat
Speaker 1: away at your self esteem and your confidence.
Speaker 4: It's not only just important for the young person who's
Speaker 4: developing their self worth and projecting themselves into the future.
Speaker 4: It's also the way other people look at you and
Speaker 4: treat you when our facts incredible facts. You know that
Speaker 4: we were the most awarded and every single war America
Speaker 4: has ever had, twenty thousand US fought in a civil war.
Speaker 4: Five hundred thousands of US sacrificed our lives in World
Speaker 4: War Two and the incredible heroes. Gil Bosquez, a diplomat, say,
Speaker 4: forty thousand Jews in this she France by renting two
Speaker 4: churches and putting twenty thousand Jews in each and then
Speaker 4: giving them asylum in Mexico. You know, if people knew
Speaker 4: these facts, then you you can respect a culture and
Speaker 4: an ethnic group and go, oh my god, you've contributed
Speaker 4: so much. They treat you differently. You treat it with
Speaker 4: more respect. You're you're given a seat at the table.
Speaker 4: Without that, you're told what have you done for us?
Speaker 4: What have you done for us?
Speaker 2: Where are you from? Where are you from from?
Speaker 4: Go back to where you came from. Oh yeah, we've
Speaker 4: been here for five hundred years. You know, the first
Speaker 4: language spoken in the European language spoke in America is
Speaker 4: not English, the Spanish.
Speaker 2: That's you got it right.
Speaker 1: Well, that's one of the reasons why you're so committed
Speaker 1: to fighting for a national Latino Museum on the National Mall.
Speaker 2: Where is that process?
Speaker 4: Oh my god, you know it's been I just joined
Speaker 4: ten years ago, but they've been at it for forty years.
Speaker 4: It tasts forever. We got it through Congress, we got
Speaker 4: it from the Senate by partisan Now we just need
Speaker 4: to be on the We want to be on the mall.
Speaker 4: That's the big We want to be across from the
Speaker 4: beautiful African American music, which is stunning, and it's a
Speaker 4: small plot of lands. We have to build higher and
Speaker 4: deeper to get all our you know, we've been here
Speaker 4: for you know, with our because we've got to start
Speaker 4: with our empires. Yeah, you know, Inca, Maya, Aztec, thousands
Speaker 4: of years been here. So yeah, that's that's our next fight.
Speaker 4: We're getting a little you know, pushback from certain representatives
Speaker 4: and we're working them. Chuck Schumer is helping us, Clobature
Speaker 4: is helping us, Murkowski's helping us. We're getting a lot
Speaker 4: of help to forge the language that will make everyone happy,
Speaker 4: to allow us to have a place in the mall
Speaker 4: because I don't want to be twenty miles out because
Speaker 4: then you feel like like second rate, like a second class.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, well I really wish you well on that
Speaker 1: because that's an important effort. And you know, as we close,
Speaker 1: I just want to ask you about the so called
Speaker 1: Latino vote. People talk about it all the time, and
Speaker 1: now we're heading into the twenty twenty four election cycle.
Speaker 2: But you know, of course Latino voters have varied backgrounds,
Speaker 2: they have different priorities like any other large group. How
Speaker 2: do you see your.
Speaker 1: Role now as an active and outspoken leader in a
Speaker 1: very diverse community.
Speaker 4: Diverse, yes, but the largest voting block in America after whites.
Speaker 4: M fifty four percent of our registered voters voted. So
Speaker 4: we vote. But you have to talk to us. You
Speaker 4: have to reach out toactly. You have to have Latin
Speaker 4: consultants who tell you what to talk to us about.
Speaker 4: Because the Republicans were better at it than us. They
Speaker 4: got on what's app in Arizona and in Florida, they
Speaker 4: got in our Spanish radio stations and advertised and gave
Speaker 4: the trigger words. You know, socialism. It triggers Cubans and Venezuelans,
Speaker 4: and now it's triggering Colombians because of what's happening in
Speaker 4: the neighbor country. Right, So they knew the right trigger words.
Speaker 4: We didn't know. We just ignored it. You know that
Speaker 4: Democrats paid no attention. Yeah, you know, there's a lot
Speaker 4: of very Christian Latinos who are you know, homophobic, anti abortion,
Speaker 4: you have they exist, but the majority of us are Democrats.
Speaker 4: But you still have to win us. You have to
Speaker 4: win us. You have to court us, you have to
Speaker 4: knock on our doors, you have to pick up that home.
Speaker 2: Percent, you know. And I always loved it. I always
Speaker 2: loved campaigning.
Speaker 1: My very first job in politics was registering voters in
Speaker 1: South Texas in the you know, Rio Grande Valley. I
Speaker 1: mean I loved it. I mean, campaigning in and to
Speaker 1: communities in the large Latino vote arena is fun. And
Speaker 1: I would do the I would do the radio shows.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, They're hilarious, those radio shows.
Speaker 2: I mean I had no.
Speaker 1: Idea what anybody was saying before or after I got on,
Speaker 1: but we had so much fun and bells would be
Speaker 1: wrong and drums would be hit.
Speaker 2: I mean, we we really.
Speaker 1: It is one of my favorite, you know kinds of campaigning,
Speaker 1: even in New York City when I used to campaign,
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I mean, you know, going from community
Speaker 1: to community, playing dominoes and a Dominican housing complex, you know,
Speaker 1: going to Puerto Rican Day Parade, going to queens and
Speaker 1: meeting up with all of the Colombians and everybody else. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I highly recommend it to anybody who's running for office.
Speaker 4: That's amazing. I mean, that's why you had the impact
Speaker 4: you had. I mean, because you are turned on by people.
Speaker 2: I like it.
Speaker 4: You are turned on by being amongst Americans.
Speaker 1: And I guess that leads to you know, coming full
Speaker 1: circle in our conversation. There is all this variety and
Speaker 1: different patternss of assimilation, and you know it far better
Speaker 1: than I. But I think Latino communities in America have
Speaker 1: some unique and valuable traditions and lessons to teach the
Speaker 1: rest of us about alleviating the epidemic of loneliness. I mean,
Speaker 1: if people are lonely, what can you tell them about
Speaker 1: the importance of connectivity and maybe some of the traditions
Speaker 1: or the joys that you have in your own community.
Speaker 4: It's so funny to say that, because I've been looking
Speaker 4: at that, you know. I always say being a Latin
Speaker 4: is a superpower because we're the only culture in the
Speaker 4: world whose religion, language, and culture were destroyed in the
Speaker 4: conquest and here we are three point two trillion dollars
Speaker 4: adding it to the GDP. So it's a superpower. And
Speaker 4: what is that We are the most joyful people in
Speaker 4: the world. We enjoy everything you enjoy everyone. We enjoy
Speaker 4: every aspect of life, and we enjoyed in community, in groups.
Speaker 4: We love bringing our family together. My grandfather had all
Speaker 4: his kids living with them, with their spouses and their grandkids.
Speaker 4: And yeah, we had to share a lot of bathrooms,
Speaker 4: but you shared a lot of stories.
Speaker 2: And a lot of love and a lot of love.
Speaker 4: And that was beautiful. I'll never forget that feeling of connectivity,
Speaker 4: community in one house, twenty people my Thanksgiving. This Thanksgiving
Speaker 4: it will be thirty people, or Indigenous Survival Day as
Speaker 4: I call it.
Speaker 2: Well, and also the food, Let's not forget the food.
Speaker 2: It's really good. I mean so much variety of food.
Speaker 2: You know, John, I just love talking to you.
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful to you for not just your creativity
Speaker 1: but the courage you have in getting yourself out there
Speaker 1: and being a not just a spokesperson and a role
Speaker 1: model and an activist, but someone who really cares about
Speaker 1: what happens in this country.
Speaker 4: Well, thank you, Hillary. I mean, you're such a huge
Speaker 4: inspiration to me and to many many, many people, and
Speaker 4: seeing you just shows me what I can do with
Speaker 4: the rest of my life and to keep going and
Speaker 4: never quit and never give up, persevere, and you're that
Speaker 4: emblematic figure for me.
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: When John and I spoke the SAG afterra Actors strike
Speaker 1: was still going on, so we couldn't really get into
Speaker 1: his TV series, Leguizamo Does America. But now that the
Speaker 1: strike is thankfully over, I want to give a huge
Speaker 1: shout out for this great series. It's smart, joyful, and
Speaker 1: of course very funny, just like John, so please check
Speaker 1: it out. It's on Peacock, which is the NBC streaming service,
Speaker 1: and on Hulu. I think you'll get at least a
Speaker 1: good laugh or two. You and Me Both is brought
Speaker 1: to you by iHeart Podcasts. We're produced by Julie Subren,
Speaker 1: Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, with help from Khuma Abadeen,
Speaker 1: Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Sarah Horowitz, Laura Olin, Lona Valmorro
Speaker 1: and the Lily Weber. Our engineer is Zach McNeice and
Speaker 1: the original music is by Forest Gray. If you like
Speaker 1: You and Me Both, tell someone else about it. And
Speaker 1: if you're not already a subscriber, what are you waiting for?
Speaker 1: You can subscribe to You and Me Both on the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts,
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and i'll see you next week.