WEBVTT - Wildfire Ignition is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:27.476 Bushkin. This is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. Many many millions 0:00:27.476 --> 0:00:29.716 of gallons of retardants are used every year, ran the 0:00:29.876 --> 0:00:32.996 iconic red stuff you see being dropped from planes. In 0:00:33.036 --> 0:00:38.396 recent weeks, the Pacific coast has faced devastating wildfires. Because 0:00:38.436 --> 0:00:42.596 of climate change, uncontrolled fires have become increasingly frequent and 0:00:42.676 --> 0:00:46.956 increasingly destructive around the world, from Australia to Brazil to 0:00:46.996 --> 0:00:50.876 Oregon and California. But before they spread out of control, 0:00:51.396 --> 0:00:55.436 these fires often start in predictable places. I mean, we 0:00:55.556 --> 0:00:59.716 found that eighty percent plus of the fires in California 0:00:59.756 --> 0:01:02.756 over the last ten years have started routinely in the 0:01:02.876 --> 0:01:07.276 same sorts of hotspots. The familiar fire preventing strategies focused 0:01:07.276 --> 0:01:11.356 on giving fires less fuel by clearing flammable materials from 0:01:11.396 --> 0:01:14.836 around the home, keeping gutters and drains clear, and cutting 0:01:14.836 --> 0:01:17.956 down dead and dying trees. But as the planet grows 0:01:17.956 --> 0:01:21.676 hotter and fire seasons keep getting longer, we might be 0:01:21.756 --> 0:01:26.436 ready for a higher tech approach, something like Jello. For 0:01:26.516 --> 0:01:30.396 the lay person, it it looks and feels, I don't know, 0:01:30.836 --> 0:01:33.436 it's not as stiff as jello. Eric Apple is a 0:01:33.476 --> 0:01:38.076 professor of material science and engineering at Stanford University. He 0:01:38.156 --> 0:01:41.756 and his team have designed new long lasting fire retardant 0:01:42.076 --> 0:01:46.236 with a gel like texture. It's sprayed over known hotspots 0:01:46.716 --> 0:01:50.916 before fires start. I believe that with the right technology 0:01:50.956 --> 0:01:55.196 in hand, this problem is solvable. I asked Apple why 0:01:55.236 --> 0:01:58.756 he's so passionate about this idea. He started by describing 0:01:58.796 --> 0:02:01.996 the sky outside his window. Right now. If I look 0:02:02.036 --> 0:02:05.316 out my window, I see a very brown sky. It 0:02:05.356 --> 0:02:08.196 looks like it's twilight, but you know, it's ten o'clock 0:02:08.236 --> 0:02:10.836 in the morning. It should be bright and sunny. I mean, 0:02:10.876 --> 0:02:14.276 I grew up in California. I'm Californian for almost my 0:02:14.436 --> 0:02:18.636 entire life, and you know, I have many graduate students 0:02:18.636 --> 0:02:20.436 in my lab at Stanford that come here from all 0:02:20.436 --> 0:02:22.116 over the place, and they just sort of assume that 0:02:22.156 --> 0:02:24.956 it's normal. And I had to tell him no, I mean, 0:02:24.996 --> 0:02:28.116 I don't remember this ever when I was growing up. 0:02:28.156 --> 0:02:30.756 I mean, you'd hear about fires every once in a 0:02:30.836 --> 0:02:33.956 while on the news, but it's certainly in the last 0:02:33.996 --> 0:02:37.516 couple of years has become a completely regular thing. So 0:02:37.556 --> 0:02:42.476 I can certainly understand your eagerness to help solve this 0:02:42.516 --> 0:02:45.516 problem solvable. About how you're going to do it, what's 0:02:45.556 --> 0:02:50.356 your solvable for dealing with these fires. Many, many millions 0:02:50.356 --> 0:02:52.556 of gallons of retardants are used every year, right the 0:02:52.756 --> 0:02:55.076 iconic red stuff you see me and dropped from planes, 0:02:55.676 --> 0:02:58.796 and that's really only ever used reactively. So once a 0:02:58.796 --> 0:03:03.676 fire has started, our main approach is trying to stop 0:03:03.716 --> 0:03:06.996 them before they start. Now, one of the limitations that 0:03:07.036 --> 0:03:09.396 we were trying to address is if you want to 0:03:09.476 --> 0:03:13.036 go and pretreat areas where you know fires are going 0:03:13.076 --> 0:03:16.036 to start. One of the primary limitations of the current 0:03:16.036 --> 0:03:18.356 retardants is that they don't stay where you put them. 0:03:18.956 --> 0:03:21.756 A high wind or heavy dew is enough to wash 0:03:21.796 --> 0:03:24.876 the retardants off the vegetation, so they stop working. So 0:03:24.956 --> 0:03:29.236 what we sought to do was to not create a 0:03:29.276 --> 0:03:32.836 new retardant, let's say, because we're using the same active 0:03:32.836 --> 0:03:37.716 fire retarding agent, but instead tweaking the performance additives so 0:03:37.756 --> 0:03:41.636 that the retardant stays on the vegetation throughout the duration 0:03:41.676 --> 0:03:44.076 of the fire season, So you can spray one time 0:03:44.396 --> 0:03:49.436 in June, let's say, and have protection against fire starts 0:03:49.476 --> 0:03:52.756 all the way through until the rainy season comes. So 0:03:52.876 --> 0:03:56.196 can you describe this stuff? What's it like? If you 0:03:56.316 --> 0:04:00.156 touch it? How does it feel? It's not quite a gel. 0:04:00.276 --> 0:04:02.476 A lot of people think of jello when they think 0:04:02.516 --> 0:04:04.276 of a gel, and it's not thick like that. It 0:04:04.316 --> 0:04:08.796 looks kind of like cream. Really. So what we developed 0:04:08.796 --> 0:04:12.716 an in my lab improves the adherents, so more of 0:04:12.716 --> 0:04:16.356 what you spray actually sticks on the vegetation, and it 0:04:16.836 --> 0:04:20.196 improves the durability. So it's really only once you get 0:04:20.236 --> 0:04:23.476 into the rating season that the materials will wash away 0:04:24.116 --> 0:04:26.356 and simply buy it a grade in the soil. Yeah, 0:04:26.676 --> 0:04:29.556 the evidence in I mean, you know it works. Yeah, 0:04:29.556 --> 0:04:32.316 so it we did pilot scale studies to test it ourselves, 0:04:32.356 --> 0:04:36.196 and we tried to burn it. It was actually kind 0:04:36.236 --> 0:04:38.596 of fun because, you know, we would do the experiments 0:04:38.916 --> 0:04:42.516 and see that the fire would not actually ignite even 0:04:42.516 --> 0:04:45.036 through extensive weathering. So we ranged a half an inch 0:04:45.116 --> 0:04:46.876 on it and let it sit in the environment for 0:04:47.516 --> 0:04:51.676 six weeks the treated grass. It wouldn't burn, and so 0:04:52.396 --> 0:04:54.276 some of the folks that we were working with started 0:04:54.316 --> 0:04:57.316 just drawing funny faces in the grass with a torch 0:04:57.436 --> 0:04:59.116 because even if you took a torch to it, it it 0:04:59.196 --> 0:05:02.436 wouldn't ignite. Wow. Then we were able to step it 0:05:02.516 --> 0:05:05.276 up and actually do some full scale pilot studies and 0:05:05.956 --> 0:05:11.636 treated a number of roadside segments in southern California. Many 0:05:11.676 --> 0:05:14.996 of them are small, but every one of these ignitions 0:05:14.996 --> 0:05:17.756 requires crews to go out and put them out, so 0:05:18.276 --> 0:05:21.716 they use a lot of resources, They take up firefighters 0:05:21.756 --> 0:05:25.036 time that they could be spending doing things like controlled burns, 0:05:25.636 --> 0:05:28.796 and we reported that there were zero fires in the 0:05:28.836 --> 0:05:32.916 treated areas. Eric. This is a very targeted intervention, right. 0:05:32.916 --> 0:05:35.116 You don't need to treat the whole forest, You just 0:05:35.396 --> 0:05:38.676 go where the fire is most likely to happen. Yeah, exactly. 0:05:39.676 --> 0:05:42.676 I think that's an important misconception that I see a 0:05:42.716 --> 0:05:44.676 lot of places that you know, we're not talking about 0:05:44.716 --> 0:05:47.716 treating the entire forest like you would with a controlled burn. 0:05:48.156 --> 0:05:51.156 We're talking about treating only right where the fires are 0:05:51.196 --> 0:05:53.916 likely to start. And so if you envision a roadside 0:05:54.356 --> 0:05:56.676 where if you have a car that overheats and it 0:05:56.716 --> 0:05:59.236 pulls over into the grass right next to the roadway, 0:06:00.036 --> 0:06:02.556 or somebody throws a cigarette butt out of their window, 0:06:02.876 --> 0:06:04.996 it only lands right next to the roadway, and so 0:06:04.996 --> 0:06:07.876 you only have to treat right there. And what's beautiful 0:06:07.916 --> 0:06:11.596 about that is that, say, a twenty foot wide treatment 0:06:11.996 --> 0:06:15.756 protects all of the forest beyond it. Yeah, and this 0:06:16.236 --> 0:06:19.996 cream that you're spraying is it? Is it safe or 0:06:20.196 --> 0:06:24.236 plants and trees and birds and animals and people. I mean, 0:06:24.436 --> 0:06:26.556 there's something about the look of that red stuff coming 0:06:26.556 --> 0:06:29.196 out of planes that I always think I would not 0:06:29.276 --> 0:06:32.316 like to be underneath it. Yeah, So we when we 0:06:32.316 --> 0:06:35.636 were developing this, we specifically designed it to be safe. 0:06:36.116 --> 0:06:39.676 That was one of the primary concerns, because anything you're 0:06:39.676 --> 0:06:41.436 putting out in the environment, you want to be one 0:06:42.156 --> 0:06:47.196 certain that it's safe and effective. We designed it using cellulos, 0:06:47.236 --> 0:06:51.596 so just plant matter and a thing called colloidal silica, 0:06:51.636 --> 0:06:53.676 which you can think of as nanosand so it's just 0:06:53.996 --> 0:06:57.836 primarily sand and cellulos. These are products that are already 0:06:57.956 --> 0:07:01.996 used in food products and pharmaceutical products, and so they're 0:07:02.076 --> 0:07:05.316 widely used, and we have a really good understanding of 0:07:05.356 --> 0:07:09.116 their environmental safety and their safety to plants and animal 0:07:09.316 --> 0:07:12.836 and fish. It sounds kind of obvious if the stuff 0:07:12.876 --> 0:07:15.756 there were spraying blows away, why not come up with 0:07:15.796 --> 0:07:19.556 some stuff that won't blow away? Is that? Why wasn't 0:07:19.596 --> 0:07:23.276 something like this tried before you got onto it. I 0:07:23.276 --> 0:07:28.996 think this is a great example of how innovation often 0:07:29.076 --> 0:07:33.396 takes place right at the intersection of fields. The majority 0:07:33.396 --> 0:07:37.396 of my lab actually focuses on drug delivery. You know, 0:07:37.396 --> 0:07:41.076 we're in the process of developing an HIV drug, trying 0:07:41.076 --> 0:07:44.236 to make it so that instead of needing to let's say, 0:07:44.316 --> 0:07:49.676 have an infusion of anti HIV antibodies once every two months, 0:07:49.916 --> 0:07:54.596 you can get instead of a single injection, and you 0:07:54.596 --> 0:07:58.196 would get nine months or a year's worth of protection. 0:07:58.916 --> 0:08:01.236 And what we were able to do here is apply 0:08:01.356 --> 0:08:03.556 that same sort of thinking. Right, this is really a 0:08:03.556 --> 0:08:08.236 delivery problem. The active FI retarding agent works great if 0:08:08.236 --> 0:08:11.036 it where it needs to be when it needs to 0:08:11.076 --> 0:08:15.796 be there. At risk of revealing my ignorance of chemistry, 0:08:15.836 --> 0:08:17.836 can you go a little further into how it works? 0:08:17.876 --> 0:08:20.516 I mean, I guess what I would understand that to mean. 0:08:20.716 --> 0:08:24.956 Is that something that's water soluble that would get dissolved 0:08:24.996 --> 0:08:30.116 if it rain is adhering to something that's not water soluble, 0:08:30.236 --> 0:08:32.396 like a like a gel or an oil. I mean, 0:08:32.476 --> 0:08:35.596 is that what's happening here? Yeah, So when people think 0:08:35.596 --> 0:08:38.156 of gels, they think of sort of wet, squishy stuff, 0:08:38.636 --> 0:08:40.716 you know. So it's the gel like nature that allows 0:08:40.716 --> 0:08:43.716 it to adhere better. But then once it dries into 0:08:43.796 --> 0:08:45.596 a film, you can think of it kind of like 0:08:46.076 --> 0:08:48.396 like nail polish or something like that, right, or paint 0:08:48.396 --> 0:08:51.716 where it dries into a film, but it's not it's 0:08:51.716 --> 0:08:54.316 not thick like paint, and it doesn't suffocate the plants 0:08:54.356 --> 0:08:57.396 or anything like that. It just it creates a more 0:08:57.956 --> 0:09:00.876 robust film. And so this is where I could nerd 0:09:00.876 --> 0:09:03.516 out all day on the polymer science of this. But 0:09:04.116 --> 0:09:06.756 one of the beautiful things about polymers because we use 0:09:07.036 --> 0:09:11.636 cellulosic polymers that are biover newable resources, and when they 0:09:11.796 --> 0:09:15.476 dry they sort of get all stuck together and entangled. 0:09:15.676 --> 0:09:18.076 The sort of go to thing when talking about what 0:09:18.236 --> 0:09:21.036 are polymers like, it's kind of like a bull of spaghetti. 0:09:21.476 --> 0:09:24.236 And so you can think of the longer the spaghetti, 0:09:24.516 --> 0:09:27.356 the more tied up they are with their neighbors, and 0:09:27.436 --> 0:09:31.396 the harder it is to grab one piece and pull 0:09:31.436 --> 0:09:34.076 it apart from the rest. And so in our case, 0:09:34.156 --> 0:09:39.156 we have these cellulose polymers and when they dry into 0:09:39.156 --> 0:09:41.676 a film, they end up holding on really tightly to 0:09:41.756 --> 0:09:45.396 the fiery tardant. So it just take it takes more water, 0:09:45.516 --> 0:09:51.276 more rainfall to get those films to dissolve away. That's fascinating. 0:09:51.476 --> 0:09:54.996 Your lab was focused on these time released delayed release 0:09:55.116 --> 0:09:58.756 mechanisms for something completely different. How did you get the 0:09:58.876 --> 0:10:04.316 idea to apply that to fire prevention? At family barbecue? 0:10:04.756 --> 0:10:09.516 Family barbecue? So, my brother in law, Jesse a stuff. 0:10:09.876 --> 0:10:12.916 He was the fire prevention forster for the state of 0:10:12.956 --> 0:10:16.756 Hawaii for many years, and it came about when we 0:10:16.756 --> 0:10:20.036 were talking. So he was the one that originally identified 0:10:20.636 --> 0:10:25.556 that fires routinely start in the same areas. He was 0:10:25.596 --> 0:10:28.316 the one that had the original idea to say, oh, well, 0:10:28.876 --> 0:10:31.836 if we could only treat these areas beforehand, then we 0:10:31.876 --> 0:10:35.156 could stop them before they even start. To me, when 0:10:35.196 --> 0:10:38.076 we were talking about this, it was clear, oh, this 0:10:38.156 --> 0:10:41.476 is a controlled delivery problem. It's a great story. So 0:10:41.716 --> 0:10:51.036 firefighter meets material scientists, presumably over beers at a family barbecue. K. 0:10:51.116 --> 0:10:53.476 I know you've had time to test some of this 0:10:53.516 --> 0:10:58.476 work and coordinate a bit with cal fire. Was that 0:10:58.636 --> 0:11:01.716 retard you're talking about in place this spring? If we've 0:11:01.756 --> 0:11:04.196 seen the results with any of these awful fires that 0:11:04.196 --> 0:11:06.516 are going on right now. So the materials are now 0:11:06.836 --> 0:11:11.196 fully commercially available. They're being sold by the main company 0:11:11.236 --> 0:11:14.556 that produces all of the fire retardants that you see 0:11:14.556 --> 0:11:17.596 being dropped out of planes and whatnot. The product is 0:11:17.596 --> 0:11:20.836 actually called Pause Check Fortify, and it is their sort 0:11:20.836 --> 0:11:25.676 of premiere product for fire prevention. And so I believe 0:11:25.716 --> 0:11:29.796 the company has been conducting projects in various places around 0:11:29.836 --> 0:11:33.996 the state. For like we mentioned before, this targeted prevention 0:11:34.356 --> 0:11:38.556 of wildfires in hotspots that are known to cause a 0:11:38.556 --> 0:11:41.196 lot of fires. But were we too late for this 0:11:41.276 --> 0:11:44.076 year or is this stuff being it's too late to 0:11:44.116 --> 0:11:48.276 use it now? So unfortunately probably not. Over the last 0:11:48.316 --> 0:11:52.556 couple of years, the fall has been really the most 0:11:52.596 --> 0:11:56.836 severe part of the season. We do need to be thinking, 0:11:57.036 --> 0:11:59.356 you know, at the individual level, at the community level, 0:12:00.156 --> 0:12:03.916 of ways that we can be mitigating fires, especially in 0:12:03.956 --> 0:12:06.956 these areas that are near where a lot of people live, 0:12:07.036 --> 0:12:09.596 because they're the ones that have the greatest chance to 0:12:09.636 --> 0:12:13.436 cause the most death and destruction. Yeah, I mean, obviously 0:12:13.436 --> 0:12:16.796 these fire crews are you know, fully occupied, and then 0:12:16.836 --> 0:12:19.236 some right now that they don't have much capacity to 0:12:19.316 --> 0:12:23.876 work on preventive measures. Next year, the fires are gone. 0:12:23.876 --> 0:12:26.356 At some point, fire season will be over and there 0:12:26.396 --> 0:12:28.556 will be a break. Do you have big plans for 0:12:28.676 --> 0:12:32.396 next year? Yes? Absolutely, I mean, and that's where you know, 0:12:32.796 --> 0:12:36.356 firefighters recognize this. I mean they are very clear on 0:12:36.636 --> 0:12:38.796 what needs to be done during the off season, but 0:12:39.156 --> 0:12:41.116 a lot of other people sort of forget about fires 0:12:41.156 --> 0:12:44.236 during the off season. And I think it's important to 0:12:44.236 --> 0:12:47.316 realize that as we recognize the fire seasons are getting 0:12:47.356 --> 0:12:50.276 more and more and more severe, more time and more 0:12:50.476 --> 0:12:54.676 money needs to be put into mitigation efforts to rejuvenate 0:12:54.716 --> 0:12:58.316 our healthy relationship with the forest to help set us 0:12:58.396 --> 0:13:02.316 up for greater success going into the fire season. Yeah, 0:13:02.356 --> 0:13:06.316 it sounds super exciting, Eric, but we're not seeing it 0:13:06.396 --> 0:13:10.316 reduced fires currently. Right. Are we at a turning point 0:13:10.396 --> 0:13:14.796 around deploying prophylaxis, as you say, as a strategy, I 0:13:14.836 --> 0:13:18.836 think so absolutely. And really, what we've developed is a tool. 0:13:19.156 --> 0:13:22.556 We don't want to stop all fires. Fires healthy for 0:13:22.636 --> 0:13:26.676 the forest, and so what we really hope is that 0:13:26.796 --> 0:13:31.076 this technology that we've developed can help prevent fires in 0:13:31.116 --> 0:13:34.836 the places that pose the greatest danger to people and 0:13:34.956 --> 0:13:39.316 property and at the same time support efforts to build 0:13:39.396 --> 0:13:42.836 a healthier relationship with the forest. Right, the materials that 0:13:42.836 --> 0:13:48.556 we've developed can be leveraged during control burn efforts, for example, 0:13:48.596 --> 0:13:52.356 to make them faster and more efficient and more effective 0:13:52.356 --> 0:13:56.996 and protect older mature trees, protect infrastructure, that may be 0:13:57.116 --> 0:13:59.676 in the forest, and in some ways the materials that 0:13:59.716 --> 0:14:03.956 we've can help those efforts. We'd like to end the 0:14:03.996 --> 0:14:08.996 show by asking for suggestions for things listeners can do 0:14:09.756 --> 0:14:12.716 to help with this problem. Obviously, we know from Smokey 0:14:12.716 --> 0:14:15.756 Bear that only they can prevent forest fires, but you know, 0:14:15.876 --> 0:14:19.236 beyond that, what can people in California and I guess 0:14:19.276 --> 0:14:25.196 not in California do to help with this terrible tragedy 0:14:25.236 --> 0:14:30.396 we see. One is be really cognizant of your surroundings. 0:14:30.996 --> 0:14:33.516 You know, there are a lot of accidental fire starts 0:14:33.516 --> 0:14:37.716 that could have been mitigated, Like just thinking about forest 0:14:37.716 --> 0:14:40.956 fire is being something that that is a huge risk. 0:14:41.396 --> 0:14:45.396 Another one is I would encourage people really to pursue 0:14:46.276 --> 0:14:51.076 creating defensible spaces around their homes. So it's creating a 0:14:51.116 --> 0:14:55.236 one hundred foot barrier, making sure that leaves and excess, 0:14:55.436 --> 0:14:58.836 you know, potential fuels are removed from your roofs or 0:14:58.876 --> 0:15:01.756 gutters or just from around the house in the first place. 0:15:02.396 --> 0:15:06.956 And also, I mean every county, every I guess maybe 0:15:06.996 --> 0:15:10.276 even not just at the county level, a fire safe 0:15:10.276 --> 0:15:13.956 councils that are sort of mixtures of fire personnel as 0:15:13.956 --> 0:15:17.516 well as local landowners but more engagement in those sorts 0:15:17.556 --> 0:15:20.276 of things would be really helpful. There are a lot 0:15:20.276 --> 0:15:24.316 of policies that really, I guess are not as helpful 0:15:24.356 --> 0:15:31.276 for incentivizing people to be as fire safe as possible, 0:15:31.756 --> 0:15:36.476 and so even talking to your local and state representatives 0:15:36.516 --> 0:15:41.476 about investing more into these sort of fire prevention opportunities. 0:15:41.756 --> 0:15:44.956 I don't think there's as much buy in as there 0:15:44.996 --> 0:15:47.716 could be or should be. So many people forget about 0:15:47.756 --> 0:15:51.236 wildfire season, you know, during the five or six months 0:15:51.396 --> 0:15:54.436 in the off season, and we need to be more prepared. 0:15:59.476 --> 0:16:03.036 Eric Apple is a professor of material science and engineering 0:16:03.076 --> 0:16:06.676 at Stanford University. Remember to check out our show notes 0:16:06.716 --> 0:16:09.676 for links to suggestions for ways that you can reduce 0:16:09.716 --> 0:16:15.196 fire risks and learn more about wildfire prevention. Solvable is 0:16:15.196 --> 0:16:18.316 brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our show is produced 0:16:18.316 --> 0:16:23.596 by Camille Baptista, Senior Producer, Jocelyn Frank. Katherine Girardou is 0:16:23.596 --> 0:16:27.276 our managing producer, and our executive producer is Mia Loebell. 0:16:28.036 --> 0:16:32.516 Special thanks to Heather Fain, Eric Sandler, Harley Mgliori, and Kadijahaled. 0:16:32.996 --> 0:16:34.196 I'm Jacob Weisberg.