Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Welcome to episode number seventeen of The Hunting Collective.
Speaker 1: I've been O'Brien. I'm joined today by Cody Rich Tody
Speaker 1: Rich of the Rich Outdoors podcast and all the other
Speaker 1: media associated with his brand and all the other things
Speaker 1: he does as an entrepreneur in the hunting world. Cody
Speaker 1: is an interesting guy. He's a free thinker. He's somebody
Speaker 1: that has a different approach on talking about hunting, thinking
Speaker 1: about hunting, and he's as hardcore as they come. He
Speaker 1: spends a ton of time in the back country, just
Speaker 1: about as much time as he spends thinking about why
Speaker 1: he does what he does and how to make it
Speaker 1: better for all of us. So I had a great
Speaker 1: conversation with Cody in Bozeman, Montana. I'd like to thank
Speaker 1: him and his lovely fiance for having me over for dinner,
Speaker 1: a good bit of whiskey and a great podcast. Who
Speaker 1: went deep on a lot of conversations from the history
Speaker 1: of hunting to how we got here to where we're
Speaker 1: going and so well, Thank Cody one more time. I
Speaker 1: hope you enjoy episode number seventeen. Cody, Who's podcast is this?
Speaker 1: Have we discussed who Who's posting? It. Yeah, you know
Speaker 1: what's funny? Um until a lot of podcasts with other people,
Speaker 1: and that's always like a conversation. I mean, this is
Speaker 1: both I guess, don't they do where you like you
Speaker 1: can share, you can both post the same podcast. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't like that. Really, we have to know. I
Speaker 1: don't like I want to I'm selfish. I wanted okay,
Speaker 1: you go first. Should we shoot for it like Rochambau
Speaker 1: for it? Or it could be a rock paper scissors game. Yeah.
Speaker 1: At the end, a lot of people vote, A lot
Speaker 1: of people vote, and see, uh I did one with
Speaker 1: go Wild. Oh yeah, you didn't want the other with Brad? Yeah,
Speaker 1: Brad's good dude. Yeah we did. Uh we did one.
Speaker 1: It was like three hours long. It was funny. I
Speaker 1: was like, where did time go? I still got a
Speaker 1: post it on mine? I told him I would after
Speaker 1: that just means you're good at what you do. Like
Speaker 1: if you're good, I'm good at bullshitting bullshit. And if
Speaker 1: if you found yourself in a position where you just
Speaker 1: bullshit as a profession or semi professional bullshit, or you're
Speaker 1: doing good, which is strange because I would not if
Speaker 1: you would have looked back before I started podcast, no
Speaker 1: one that knows me it would have been like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I hope be a podcast host, or it was probably
Speaker 1: before that was even things would be like a radio host,
Speaker 1: like I was not a talkative. I'm not a talkative person.
Speaker 1: I don't go out of my way to talk about
Speaker 1: myself or about anything. Super quiet, superserved. I freaking hunt
Speaker 1: by myself, so like and most I don't know. I
Speaker 1: guess I'm an extroverted introvert. Yeah, and that's why your
Speaker 1: thing doesn't come off like hi and welcome to the uh.
Speaker 1: Probably for that reason. But yeah, I don't know if
Speaker 1: I was that way. My mom used to say, I
Speaker 1: know always that like late night. I when I was
Speaker 1: a kid, it was like late night with Benny, Like
Speaker 1: I'd come out and I had my act for dinner.
Speaker 1: You know, I had my deal, my act polished, my
Speaker 1: jokes lined up for dinner. So maybe that was like
Speaker 1: a precursor to having a podcast. But I feel still
Speaker 1: don't feel that way. It's not conversational when telling jokes
Speaker 1: to the at the dinner table. But yeah, I used
Speaker 1: to be a bit of a performer in my younger years.
Speaker 1: When you're a kid, Like what was like the Dreamoa,
Speaker 1: we're gonna be I was gonna be a sports writer.
Speaker 1: I was gonna be like, uh, I don't even know.
Speaker 1: At the time, was the person I looked up to
Speaker 1: the most, I don't know, guys like Ken Rosenthal and
Speaker 1: people like that, you know, which now I look at
Speaker 1: it like that is not a very glamorous you know.
Speaker 1: I didn't want to be John Glenn. I would have
Speaker 1: land on the moon, and I'm like, I'd like to
Speaker 1: write about people hitting the ball. That would be great,
Speaker 1: and and for sure got to that pretty quickly, got
Speaker 1: to the to do that as a profession, and pretty
Speaker 1: quickly realized it was terrible. And so hey, kids, if
Speaker 1: you're out there and you have a dream tested out early,
Speaker 1: if you can get it, If you get that thing
Speaker 1: in early and realize maybe it sucks, that'll save you
Speaker 1: a lot of time later on. I always tell people
Speaker 1: look at someone who is there, like, look at someone
Speaker 1: who's doing what you think you want to do, and
Speaker 1: evaluate how happy they are, like not like, oh hey
Speaker 1: this my recruiter told me he's this happy, Like truly,
Speaker 1: how happy is that person? Well that's a great, great example,
Speaker 1: because when I got I was like twenty one years
Speaker 1: old and I got to be I was an intern
Speaker 1: out of sports magazine called press Box in Baltimore, Maryland,
Speaker 1: and we and they got rid of a lot of
Speaker 1: their editorial staff and like one big swath and I
Speaker 1: was an intern, and the main publisher came to me
Speaker 1: and said, would you like to be beat writer for
Speaker 1: the Baltimore Orioles and the Ravens during the time where
Speaker 1: we're switching over our staff. And I was like, that
Speaker 1: is like my dream job, Like, oh my gosh, I'm
Speaker 1: twenty one. So I think the first time I realized
Speaker 1: that exact thing, I was sitting in the press box
Speaker 1: and I kind of looked to my left, to my right,
Speaker 1: and there's just a bunch of like disheveled, old, just
Speaker 1: miserable looking guys that can't clap anymore. If if somebody
Speaker 1: has a home run, they can't have it, like like
Speaker 1: it's it's the job of the sports journalist to be muted.
Speaker 1: So you can't celebrate any good things. You can't be
Speaker 1: You just have to sit there and write your article
Speaker 1: and be gone. And then you know it would be
Speaker 1: like an extra endings baseball game and the sports risers
Speaker 1: be over there like, oh my god. Another couple of endings,
Speaker 1: like bemoaning the fact that they had to sit in
Speaker 1: the press box longer. And I'm looking around at that
Speaker 1: and I'm like, this is a beautiful thing. To me.
Speaker 1: Sports is like this very exciting. It creates energy in
Speaker 1: a place, Like you get in a stadium full of
Speaker 1: four people and you feel this like incredible energy. And
Speaker 1: there's the dudes that are running about just white faced
Speaker 1: and like never see the sun, and you know, and
Speaker 1: I remember looking around and thinking, well, this isn't what
Speaker 1: I thought it was gonna be, you know. And then
Speaker 1: you have like the TV personalities who are super dressed up,
Speaker 1: but still the same misery, you know, still the same
Speaker 1: Like they get all the things that the baseball players get.
Speaker 1: On the negative side, they get all the travel, they get,
Speaker 1: all the long nights they get, you know, all the
Speaker 1: things that were out of baseball player. But if you
Speaker 1: don't get any of the glory, you don't get any
Speaker 1: of it. You know, you don't get the money, you
Speaker 1: don't get the glory, you don't get the women. You
Speaker 1: just get to travel, that's all. And so was there
Speaker 1: a moment where you're like, wait a minute for sure, yeah,
Speaker 1: there was a guy by then I want to say
Speaker 1: the guy, well, he ain't gonna ever listen to this,
Speaker 1: but there's a guy named Aubrey Huff's baseball player for
Speaker 1: the Oils at the time, and he I had to
Speaker 1: write a feature on him. And it's weird because in
Speaker 1: the sports world, you're you're kind of like the ass
Speaker 1: are like like cattle. You get into a room, the
Speaker 1: locker room has their lockers, right, and these are people
Speaker 1: that are literally at their jobs. They're like changing their
Speaker 1: texting there, eating their showering that they're just doing their job.
Speaker 1: They're living their life. And you're in this like cordoned
Speaker 1: off area in the middle and you're pressed. You're there
Speaker 1: to cover these guys and you're only allowed to approach
Speaker 1: them at certain times, and you gotta kinda like sidle
Speaker 1: up to them while they're it looks like they're not
Speaker 1: so busy. He'd be like, hey, Aubrey, can we talk
Speaker 1: for a minute, And he'd be like, well, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: skyping with my kids. Back off your little shit, like
Speaker 1: move away. And so it's this incredibly awkward scenario where
Speaker 1: you have to have a good relationship with this person
Speaker 1: to make it work. Well, I was twenty one years old.
Speaker 1: Nobody want to talk to me, like nobody and Aubrey
Speaker 1: Um bless Aubrey soul he Um didn't want to talk
Speaker 1: to me. And I had to come to him like
Speaker 1: the last day before my deadline. Be like, Aubrey, I've
Speaker 1: interviewed your family, your coaches, manager, your teammates, I've interviewed
Speaker 1: the janitor, I've interviewed the guy that sells peanuts out
Speaker 1: in the outfield. But I have not been able to
Speaker 1: get you to say anything about this story. And it
Speaker 1: was a kind of a glowing review of his career
Speaker 1: and he had it was having a good season that year,
Speaker 1: and he basically just came out of the shower after
Speaker 1: the game and he said, man, I'll have time for this.
Speaker 1: I said, I just need like two sentences. He's coming
Speaker 1: out of the shower and just a towel and he
Speaker 1: dropped his towel and he said, let's go. Oh, like,
Speaker 1: let's do the interview. And I'm twenty one years old.
Speaker 1: So I just got my quarter out, turned it on
Speaker 1: and did a you know, naked interview with and uh.
Speaker 1: That was the time when I was an intern still
Speaker 1: and so I didn't even really tell anybody at the
Speaker 1: that that the paper. I just went back and wrote
Speaker 1: my article and for my feature article and did my
Speaker 1: thing and just was happy to still be there. But
Speaker 1: at some point I realized, this is not this is
Speaker 1: not the dream. In fact, if I keep doing us,
Speaker 1: I will never appreciate sports again. I will hate them
Speaker 1: with all kinds of fervor. And so I need to
Speaker 1: just chill out and and figure something else. And then,
Speaker 1: luckily for me, I was in a bar and a
Speaker 1: friend of a friend was talking about his great job
Speaker 1: work for a hunting magazine and he was leaving that job,
Speaker 1: and and I was like, look into that, and I did,
Speaker 1: and off I went. But at the time I didn't
Speaker 1: realize you could be a hunting journalist in any way.
Speaker 1: I just taught you hunting was just something you did.
Speaker 1: So luckily that, luckily for me that happened. It was
Speaker 1: early on, early enough in my career. I didn't chase
Speaker 1: a dream for ten years and realized way later on.
Speaker 1: So this is me hijacking your podcast. And I like
Speaker 1: it that we we've established it's my podcast notorious for
Speaker 1: this that when you when you look back and like
Speaker 1: thinking about careers and this is like always his fascinating
Speaker 1: fascinating me because I remember being a a very young person,
Speaker 1: a kid, and having this like dead set dream on
Speaker 1: what I want to do. And I remember there was
Speaker 1: a teacher that walked in the room and said, I
Speaker 1: don't remember what the stat was, but like eight percent
Speaker 1: of people go to college and they never become what
Speaker 1: they go to college for. And I was dead set,
Speaker 1: like no, this is the thing, Like this is what
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do, Like you're so wrong, weird. It turned
Speaker 1: out that I didn't become that. But going back, like, okay,
Speaker 1: you go a sports writer? What does dream job these
Speaker 1: days look like for me right now? Because if I'm
Speaker 1: twenty and the reason I asked this questions because if
Speaker 1: I'm one, I look at someone who is just a
Speaker 1: little bit ahead of me, and I say, Okay, what's
Speaker 1: their dream? And how do I pull from that more
Speaker 1: than what I think my dream is? Yeah, what we
Speaker 1: were talking about this on a recent podcast with Casey
Speaker 1: Butler about you know, how do you get successful in
Speaker 1: the thing, Like what I think it's more about how
Speaker 1: you define success, you know, because a dream is something
Speaker 1: that you conjured, you know, a reality is like what
Speaker 1: you're talking about, like a tangible thing you can look
Speaker 1: at and be like, I'd like to have that. By
Speaker 1: its own definition, to dream is something that you've conjured
Speaker 1: in your own mind. It's just your form of happiness. Um,
Speaker 1: that's your form of I don't currently have happiness. I'd
Speaker 1: like it, and this is what I think it looks like.
Speaker 1: That's what a dream is really and the fun part
Speaker 1: is chasing that very intangible, always changing dream as you
Speaker 1: perceive the world in different ways, like you, you know,
Speaker 1: you have different experiences you like me, I had an
Speaker 1: experience that changed the dream I was chasing, but I
Speaker 1: was still chasing this level of like I want to
Speaker 1: be passionate about something and I want to inject those
Speaker 1: passions into my mind of high my daily life. And
Speaker 1: if I can do that, if those two things can
Speaker 1: somehow be married in a way that makes sense, then
Speaker 1: it's the dream. It's the same damn dream. It's just
Speaker 1: shifted as I've experienced things. And luckily for me, once
Speaker 1: I experienced the hunting community, like the hunting industry, I
Speaker 1: knew my dream was to be is impactful in that industry?
Speaker 1: Is that could possibly be? And then once I figured
Speaker 1: that out. I like, man, it doesn't matter what I'm doing,
Speaker 1: It really doesn't. I mean, it would be nice to
Speaker 1: have money, it would be nice to you know, for
Speaker 1: people to respect me, and all those types of things.
Speaker 1: But like, at the end of the day, if I'm
Speaker 1: in the community, I truly feel like I'm passionate about
Speaker 1: that thing, and I'm helping it and I'm making a
Speaker 1: good living doing it, and all those things are in
Speaker 1: this weird gumbo of you know, reality. Maybe that is
Speaker 1: the dream. It's imperfect, it's not really the dream that
Speaker 1: you might have seen in your head, but it's it's
Speaker 1: still that's the dream. It's like, however you get there
Speaker 1: doesn't matter because you're gonna every time something happens to you,
Speaker 1: your perspective will change and your dream will change with
Speaker 1: it has to. And I think that's so important for
Speaker 1: I don't to say kids, because it's it's everyone. You
Speaker 1: could be fifty years old and be like, you know,
Speaker 1: screw my nine to five job. I want to do
Speaker 1: what I love, and so like in that capacity, it's
Speaker 1: it's understanding that this dream is ever changing, and like
Speaker 1: what you're trying to accomplish, maybe tomorrow looks a little
Speaker 1: bit different and being okay with that for sure, like Okay,
Speaker 1: this is the direction, but not necessarily the exact thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because if you're chasing one exact thing, you're gonna get
Speaker 1: way off track focusing on that one thing, and you're
Speaker 1: gonna miss a lot along the way that would have
Speaker 1: benefited your life and your passion. Like if I would
Speaker 1: have been completely closed to marketing, I was a journalism major,
Speaker 1: I thought marking was the enemy. In fact, I still
Speaker 1: think it is. I hate it. Um. If I would
Speaker 1: have been completely closed off to taking a job as
Speaker 1: a marketing guyt to cooler company because I thought it
Speaker 1: was the enemy and my dream was to be this
Speaker 1: like this j nalist above all journalists, that I would
Speaker 1: have missed the opportunity that I had there, And in
Speaker 1: fact I struggle with that early on that decision making process,
Speaker 1: Like don't marketing is the enemy? Dude? What are you doing?
Speaker 1: Like you want to be somebody who puts information out,
Speaker 1: not doctors at up so to make you know, sell
Speaker 1: plastic boxes, Like that's not what you do. But when
Speaker 1: Ben O'Brien comes to a fork in the road such
Speaker 1: as that marketing and journalism like those are those are
Speaker 1: two big directions, right, Like that's a fork in the
Speaker 1: road that pretty much is a t intersection. So I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess I can't say that it's a winer section
Speaker 1: to what you're marketing and what you're marketing for, Like
Speaker 1: it's debatable, but like you come to a fork in
Speaker 1: the road, how do you think about decisions? That's a
Speaker 1: good question. Um yeah, well I'll think about that. We'll
Speaker 1: make a decision on my why on the road. How
Speaker 1: I'm gonna talk about decisions and wise in the road?
Speaker 1: Um Man, I just think I always go back to
Speaker 1: like energies. I don't know in marketing. What I've learned
Speaker 1: in being a marketer is that advertising his interruption and
Speaker 1: marketing is about you're not to talk about this earlier
Speaker 1: at dinner. Marketing is about like this collection of energy,
Speaker 1: you know, like you're attaching yourself to the current energy,
Speaker 1: like the most important, the most influential energy that's out there,
Speaker 1: like and that speech, and that's ideas, and that's innovation.
Speaker 1: That's a lot of things that energy gets wrapped up
Speaker 1: into too, you know, consumer products or a personality or
Speaker 1: you know, an influencer what however, you want to you
Speaker 1: want to attach that thing. When I try to make
Speaker 1: a decision like that, I look at the singular, like
Speaker 1: the tangible decision, not the indangible, because if it was
Speaker 1: me making the intangible decision between journalism and marketing, I
Speaker 1: would always pick journalism. And that's what I was just
Speaker 1: talking about. That would close me off from this other opportunity,
Speaker 1: which at its face seems like not something I wouldn't
Speaker 1: want to do. But then when I went experience Yettie,
Speaker 1: experienced the energy there and understood what it was at
Speaker 1: a base level, and like, this energy is more important
Speaker 1: than the conceptualized version of what I think marketing is,
Speaker 1: Like this is I would rather attach myself to what
Speaker 1: this feeling. Then you know, not accept this reality because
Speaker 1: because it's marketing, because it's labeled like that, um and
Speaker 1: ended up being whole lot of journalism in my marketing gig, thankfully,
Speaker 1: which like this is what I say. It's kind of
Speaker 1: a why more than a t because essentially you get
Speaker 1: to the right company with the right vibe, marketing can
Speaker 1: be journalism and like and that's being open minded and
Speaker 1: that's taking Probably a lot of that has to do
Speaker 1: with your background and what you bring to the other thing.
Speaker 1: But yeah, and I mean I hate to sound really
Speaker 1: you know, out there when I'm saying energies, I'm not
Speaker 1: We're not gonna talk about chakras at all. After then,
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't mean it like that. I mean
Speaker 1: it like a group of people are an idea or
Speaker 1: something that you literally energize as you and I I
Speaker 1: felt the same way about deciding to do a podcast,
Speaker 1: because when I sat down, like when we did a
Speaker 1: podcast before I had one, or when I had been
Speaker 1: on others, like, there's this this legitimate energy that I
Speaker 1: get from the conversation, Like it's always at some level
Speaker 1: like a drug, like you get you have a super
Speaker 1: like a passionate conversation. Nobody's interrupting you, hopefully, And that's
Speaker 1: a rarity in this world. You have that conversation, you
Speaker 1: come off like, man, that was awesome. And that's why
Speaker 1: it sometimes when when the audio is bad or when
Speaker 1: you know you lose the card on the way of
Speaker 1: the truck or something, it feels like you lost something,
Speaker 1: not because you can't because you could have the same
Speaker 1: conversation again. What you can't replace is the energy that
Speaker 1: you felt in that room at that time with that person.
Speaker 1: And I don't like how many times in your daily
Speaker 1: life you don't have an hour long conversation with the
Speaker 1: Starbucks barista. But if you did, it might be cool
Speaker 1: as ship, but you might really learn something and you
Speaker 1: might come out of that like this is a cool coffee.
Speaker 1: But I just think how many like conversations we do
Speaker 1: that aren't recorded. Yeah, that's crazy and there yeah, and
Speaker 1: then then like how you and I? The podcasting to
Speaker 1: me has become this thing that like if I don't
Speaker 1: do it once or twice a week, I get to
Speaker 1: be feeling like I gotta do it again. Man, When
Speaker 1: knees starts shaking, I'm like, let's let's let's let's get
Speaker 1: in there again and get in that arena again where
Speaker 1: I can exchange ideas. And so I I think i've
Speaker 1: I've I've gone to that more now than ever, just
Speaker 1: to try to find these things that feel energetic like this,
Speaker 1: that have a certain vibration to them, and um, if
Speaker 1: you feel it, you know it and that's the way
Speaker 1: to go. You just got check And at that, well,
Speaker 1: you're just I mean, you really are trying to gauge
Speaker 1: at the people and the idea and the direction and
Speaker 1: if you say if you say, like, man, you know
Speaker 1: my dreams journalism, I'm not doing marketing, and then then
Speaker 1: you're never gonna get to where you want to go,
Speaker 1: you know all those wise in the roads, You're just
Speaker 1: gonna go left. You're gonna be a NASCAR well, and
Speaker 1: then the reality is is like, look how much you've
Speaker 1: learned from your experiences and like stepping out and you
Speaker 1: want to like talk about this goes back to say
Speaker 1: you want to master your craft of whatever it may be. Like,
Speaker 1: you want to master your craft. You can't be a
Speaker 1: one track pony or a one track pony. You have
Speaker 1: to be able to diversify. And for you to be
Speaker 1: a great journalist a k podcast, you have to understand
Speaker 1: the marketing side. Yeah you do. That's a great point.
Speaker 1: I mean you really do have to understand the motivation
Speaker 1: of the commodity and the motivation of the consumer to
Speaker 1: understand how you marry that all together. Because people expect
Speaker 1: some consumerism in their content anymore. That's what it is.
Speaker 1: It's like, who are you sponsored by? Buddy? You're hawking
Speaker 1: this week? Like I'm not sure, let me check the list,
Speaker 1: like and so that you know I always have. I've
Speaker 1: had big time trouble with that too, um big time
Speaker 1: trouble with like mixing, like really wanting content to be
Speaker 1: honest and true and like, but understanding that there's not
Speaker 1: a whole lot of people creating content not to make
Speaker 1: money at some level. Dude, it's so hard because like
Speaker 1: on a certain level, you have to for the content
Speaker 1: to continue, it has to have funding, right, can't just
Speaker 1: go on forever. And as soon as funding comes in
Speaker 1: all this you know, it's not that the the transaction
Speaker 1: is wrong, it's that as soon as money comes in,
Speaker 1: there's outside influence and there's no way to stop that.
Speaker 1: If even if even if every listener to this podcast
Speaker 1: started paying me ten bucks a month, their influences now
Speaker 1: a part of the game, and so you can't there's
Speaker 1: nothing you can do, And so you just kind of
Speaker 1: have to like the only way to create content in
Speaker 1: this world and understand how you're gonna get to where
Speaker 1: you want to go is like how am I going
Speaker 1: to play the game? Is a setup because you're really
Speaker 1: gonna have to have a lot of extra money laying
Speaker 1: around if you want to just do a podcast for
Speaker 1: the honesty of just exchanging ideas and getting that out
Speaker 1: to people and not trying to get anything out of it,
Speaker 1: and there's no expectation in the in the market to
Speaker 1: do that. The expectation is like, you have a great podcast,
Speaker 1: what's are you gonna make? You know how many sponsors
Speaker 1: you're gonna get, how many ads you're gonna get. And
Speaker 1: then I think it's it starts to play against itself, like, well,
Speaker 1: he's got seventeen sponsors, he is good at podcasting. Should
Speaker 1: like wait a minute, man, maybe that's the opposite. It's true. No, dude,
Speaker 1: that's true. That's such a dilemma. I don't know if
Speaker 1: anybody cares about that, but well I said that I
Speaker 1: was one of the last parts I was talking about
Speaker 1: that You're just gonna have to listen to this. Maybe
Speaker 1: you don't care about it, but like I'm kind of
Speaker 1: a media geek, and um, I think these things are
Speaker 1: interesting because it goes back to how we communicated about hunting,
Speaker 1: like why we do it? And now I'm on this
Speaker 1: thing all the time saying like I care about you know,
Speaker 1: the hunters, how hunters are perceived, and I care about
Speaker 1: this and that. But part of that is also I
Speaker 1: need to make a living off how hunters are perceived.
Speaker 1: So am I being completely honest and saying that I
Speaker 1: don't know. No, it's dude, it's so true. And it
Speaker 1: goes back. It's as far, not as far as hunting
Speaker 1: goes back, but to the extent of the current world,
Speaker 1: Like it has a poll on it, whether you think
Speaker 1: it does it or not, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: it's all you know, they're my buddy all Remarcus, who
Speaker 1: runs on it. Let's say that all the time. It's
Speaker 1: like it's a game. She's just names drops. I did
Speaker 1: my buddy too. I like that was pretty damn it
Speaker 1: got that. Let's seconds in the cup and she name drop.
Speaker 1: You know. Last time I was on a yacht, we
Speaker 1: were eating caviar and we're talking about now. He always
Speaker 1: says he talks about the game, and it's like this
Speaker 1: is a game, man, Like the society is a game
Speaker 1: that we choose to play, and you choose how you
Speaker 1: want to play it, and then like what parts of
Speaker 1: it you want to play. And I feel like that
Speaker 1: about the hunting industries, like we're all, you know, communicating
Speaker 1: in some way about hunting and then at the same
Speaker 1: time virtue signaling about why we're doing it and why
Speaker 1: how we should be doing it. And I feel conflicted
Speaker 1: about that a lot, but I see the need for
Speaker 1: us to talk about why we hunt and how we're
Speaker 1: perceived and those things like that. So I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people that don't live within the industry if
Speaker 1: you hear this a lot. Yeah, we talked about it
Speaker 1: a lot, like what's the perception, what's what's the image
Speaker 1: that we're portraying. But at the same time, in the world,
Speaker 1: in the world still has no freaking clue and just
Speaker 1: thinks we kill stuff for fun, that's right, So we
Speaker 1: kind of do have to beat the dead horse. Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: And then you know, to say, I feel conflicted about that,
Speaker 1: as I say, like there's some small part of me
Speaker 1: that understands the hypocrisy of it, but it's still more
Speaker 1: important than my own hypocrisy, than my problems with that,
Speaker 1: Like it's more important than that. And and because it
Speaker 1: goes back so long, because the idea is such, is
Speaker 1: so core to who we are, is important and we
Speaker 1: need to keep talking about it. But again, just like
Speaker 1: that why in the road thing, like we need to
Speaker 1: make sure as a community that we don't get too
Speaker 1: set on one destination. We need to make sure we
Speaker 1: don't miss any really good things that we're not thinking
Speaker 1: about right now, because we're all headed towards one way.
Speaker 1: One of the conversations you and had this is probably
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, but it had to do
Speaker 1: with we all have we all have our own way
Speaker 1: of saying it, and we all have our own way
Speaker 1: of portraying it. What we do, what we are, who
Speaker 1: we are, all these things, and like the way you
Speaker 1: tell it is different the way I tell it, the
Speaker 1: way the cal tells it, the way Steve tells it.
Speaker 1: Like everyone has their own way, which is good because
Speaker 1: there's people there's different ways of interpreting it. So different
Speaker 1: people always interpret things different ways. And so someone maybe
Speaker 1: latch onto what you say, what I say, or like
Speaker 1: and and because they're like my damn, Cody Rachels from Oregon,
Speaker 1: from Washington State, we're the same person. If I see
Speaker 1: now you're just giving what people from Washington lady an accent.
Speaker 1: I don't know why they talk like that. I was
Speaker 1: thinking maybe they would be like you pers. I don't
Speaker 1: know why they I don't know why my like default,
Speaker 1: my default accent is all is like that Dann ju
Speaker 1: is the best NASCAR driver ever or well, it's like that,
Speaker 1: but I've talked about that in the best too. It's
Speaker 1: like we have chosen or it has chosen us. What
Speaker 1: however we came into hunting. We have chosen this complex
Speaker 1: and complicated thing that almost every single person or every
Speaker 1: single region or every single you know, place where hunting happens,
Speaker 1: it's like it's a different thing. Like we you and
Speaker 1: I grew up hunting, but we didn't grow up doing
Speaker 1: the same things. Yeah, because you grew up in Maryland,
Speaker 1: like literally a country partly everybody were you were talking
Speaker 1: like this, hey man, Uh but in Maryland, I don't
Speaker 1: know that, but everywhere. Uh. But that's you know, I
Speaker 1: think that's it. I think we we have stummeorn across
Speaker 1: this thing that is very much malleable. It's very much
Speaker 1: like the idea of hunting is pursuit. Pursuer has always
Speaker 1: been the same, that's always will remain the same. The
Speaker 1: deer and the human will remain the deer and the human,
Speaker 1: but the deer will change, certainly over time on a
Speaker 1: lot based on conditioning, and we will change and perceive
Speaker 1: the deer based on how where we live and how
Speaker 1: many of them there are we are we've already done
Speaker 1: that a history of hunting. We've already had not a
Speaker 1: lot of deer and change our perception of what deer are.
Speaker 1: And then now we got a ship ton of them,
Speaker 1: and now we're starting we're changing our perception of what
Speaker 1: deer are now, which is funny because I'll go back
Speaker 1: and I'll just to play Devil's advocate and I agree
Speaker 1: with you, but for podcast sake, we'll play Devil's advocate.
Speaker 1: The pot hunting has changed in certain capacities from the
Speaker 1: start to the beginning, and I don't know, no one
Speaker 1: really knows what the start was, Like that's a pretty
Speaker 1: undefined Well there's one like a couple of million years. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we could go to twelve thousand years or I don't
Speaker 1: know whatever it is uh to killing mammoths with spear
Speaker 1: years and whatever we did we need Steve one officially,
Speaker 1: Like there's a butcher site and like one four million years. Okay,
Speaker 1: let's just let's just rump all that into substance subsistence hunting,
Speaker 1: like we're hunting for me, right, and then we got
Speaker 1: so good at it and or popular or whatever it
Speaker 1: was that we're sport hunting, so like it changes, but
Speaker 1: now that whole you went from subsistance to sport, to
Speaker 1: market to almost extinction reset. Now we went early nineteen
Speaker 1: or twentieth century assistance again to sport. Horse will never
Speaker 1: go market again. But like history kind of repeats itself
Speaker 1: through the nineteen hunds because you have a little bit
Speaker 1: of like people only did it for me, and then
Speaker 1: people did it for sport, and then in the nineteen hundreds,
Speaker 1: after like almost a distinction, people did it for me.
Speaker 1: Because you go back to like twenties, thirties, forties, fifties,
Speaker 1: was people's hunted for meat. That was about it. Well,
Speaker 1: they started to have technology they didn't have before and
Speaker 1: they could like, oh, refrigeration ship, we could bring them back,
Speaker 1: but had technology that a rifle amazing. Absolutely No, I
Speaker 1: think I don't know if you agree with this or not,
Speaker 1: in like in that spectrum, I think the modern idea
Speaker 1: of conservation is the one thing that changed because we
Speaker 1: now had the wherewithal to consider what we couldn't consider before,
Speaker 1: because before the deer was the thing that we had
Speaker 1: to kill to eat, and then a deer, a deer
Speaker 1: was just a part of the landscape that that we
Speaker 1: took just like we plowed a field or we were
Speaker 1: just manifestesting the entire damn thing. We're just like, we'll
Speaker 1: just plow the whole fucking thing. Well, the deer there
Speaker 1: will kill him and we'll take parts of him. And
Speaker 1: it was fine. But then when conservation we came and
Speaker 1: thinking it was like this this massive course carre action
Speaker 1: and those ideas where now we can look at the
Speaker 1: animal with a truly a different value system for the
Speaker 1: first time. And so I think that's the seed change
Speaker 1: and what you're talking about, because it does repeat itself
Speaker 1: and it is sicklical. But the seed change was was
Speaker 1: in the conservation and turn of century and in in the
Speaker 1: thirties we started to think about, like, we have to
Speaker 1: have a value system for this animal or set of animals,
Speaker 1: population of animals to make sure that they stay around,
Speaker 1: because before we were just killing them to eat, or
Speaker 1: we were just killing them because they were there and
Speaker 1: we could profit off of it. But now there's this
Speaker 1: thing that we this ideal that has to go forward
Speaker 1: throughout the history of time to keep them there. So
Speaker 1: I got a question for you, and I have a
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna ask you what your theory? Okay, I
Speaker 1: like where we're just batting this ball back, and so
Speaker 1: subsistence sport market hunters just label, isn't it? Three times?
Speaker 1: Who do you think the idea for conservation the good one?
Speaker 1: Subsistence sports market hunters because we originally were subsistence hunters
Speaker 1: did it for me. Sport hunters came along from Europe,
Speaker 1: and then market hunters with this whole growth of America.
Speaker 1: So then we had market hunting who had the idea
Speaker 1: and who, Like it's not even like who specifically, but
Speaker 1: just like, well, if stem is the question I think
Speaker 1: you're looking at, I think it. I think it was
Speaker 1: kind of It's kind of embedded in each one of
Speaker 1: those things, like the idea of So take subsistence hunters,
Speaker 1: for example, if you kill them all, there's none left, right,
Speaker 1: so you they were practicing conservation, but we're neighbors were
Speaker 1: never able to define it and set it. I mean,
Speaker 1: like this is the value system because I'm sure I've
Speaker 1: never been a subsistence hunters, not alive in the eighteen hunters,
Speaker 1: but I'm fairly sure that somebody along the way we're like, look,
Speaker 1: let's only kill a few of these fuckers so there's
Speaker 1: more around. And that was that is an idea, like
Speaker 1: a feast this week is great, but if we could
Speaker 1: eat next week that because you're just thinking, like there
Speaker 1: was one kman was like that's just hit him all
Speaker 1: over the head. And then like another game was like,
Speaker 1: hey man, listen, if you hit him all over the head,
Speaker 1: we're not gonna have any left for tomorrow. So like
Speaker 1: that idea is isn't that conservation in and up? And
Speaker 1: the same with market counters, like if we can't profit
Speaker 1: all these things, that we kill every single one of
Speaker 1: them in the same in the modern spore hunts the
Speaker 1: same way we can't have fun collecting the trophies if
Speaker 1: there's no trophies left. And so I think the idea
Speaker 1: was always there and in the way that you always
Speaker 1: had to have animals to have the thing that you wanted,
Speaker 1: whether it was life or fun or can please just
Speaker 1: don't even label it. Just that's your role now. And
Speaker 1: like this is me shooting from the head, like I know, academic,
Speaker 1: don't catch it, just throw it out there. So the
Speaker 1: one thing we'll go back to podcasting and money. When
Speaker 1: money is involved, things change and I think one of
Speaker 1: the problems that we had with driving populations to near
Speaker 1: extinction was not trophy hunters a k. Sport hunters, was
Speaker 1: actually market hunters, because the theory that someone is gonna
Speaker 1: get paid for this, whether I do it or not,
Speaker 1: gets justified. And you see the same thing throughout culture today.
Speaker 1: You see it all over like you see like, oh,
Speaker 1: well someone's gonna do this, I might as well get
Speaker 1: my chunk of the pie. And I think that's truly
Speaker 1: what drove populations to extaction. It wasn't sport or trophy hunting.
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. People came from Russia. It's not like they
Speaker 1: killed two thousand buffalo. The market hunters were like, man,
Speaker 1: someone's getting paid to take this to Fort Sesson. Such
Speaker 1: well also also to like in at at the turn
Speaker 1: of the century, there was a growing urban populations that
Speaker 1: needed fed um and and you read a lot of
Speaker 1: books about buffalo hunters and how they he thought about
Speaker 1: that and also unchecked populations of large unglits running the
Speaker 1: hell all over the place. Oh yeah, they're yeah, destroying habitat.
Speaker 1: I was. I was in Yellowstone a couple of days ago,
Speaker 1: and I was thinking, well, no, wonder they wanted to
Speaker 1: kill some of these things. If you had a thousand
Speaker 1: buffalo in one valley, everything would be mush the ship,
Speaker 1: it would just be like oatmeal, like there would be
Speaker 1: nothing left. It would be your first having in yellow Stone. Yeah,
Speaker 1: when you saw your first bullflore like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: a buffalo. But I also know, like the buffalo, like
Speaker 1: I know the story. Oh no, buffalo, the first buffalo.
Speaker 1: I saw this. This is a great you know, we'll
Speaker 1: get back to defining the history of humanity in a minute,
Speaker 1: but uh, at first buffalo I saw, which I felt
Speaker 1: like it was symbolic of the buffalo and Yellowstone is
Speaker 1: um his buffalo was You could see this buffalo's ribs
Speaker 1: like he was. It looked like an old male and
Speaker 1: it looked like just like the oldest male out of
Speaker 1: the herd. He was just like stumbling around in the stage,
Speaker 1: just like trying to figure out what the fund to
Speaker 1: do by himself. And I was glassing him from the
Speaker 1: hard road there and he just his ribs were shown
Speaker 1: and he was and he was he was looking for
Speaker 1: and I was like, I just remember thinking, that's about right,
Speaker 1: that's about right. Like animals in this situation, even though
Speaker 1: it's even though it's essentially a wild buffalo. Like he's
Speaker 1: like I felt, I felt very much like that animal
Speaker 1: is sick from humanity. Like that animal has seen too
Speaker 1: many cars, He's been exposed to too many soccer moms
Speaker 1: taking his Like he's sick from that exposure. He has
Speaker 1: a Facebook account and he's like he's out school out,
Speaker 1: like he's just he's like he's ad too much exposure.
Speaker 1: He's just can't eat anymore. He's he's done with it all.
Speaker 1: He's the Kardashian Like we saw like we saw this
Speaker 1: bull elk and it was like right next to like
Speaker 1: right downtown and this bull. I know, everyone goes to
Speaker 1: Yellowstone and then this is like the only elk they've
Speaker 1: ever seen, and they think it's magical. And I've seen
Speaker 1: a lot of bulls, and it was just like the
Speaker 1: most depressing thing ever. It was like, this is not life,
Speaker 1: this is not real. Yeah, you can't. He's like I
Speaker 1: had my family with me, so I was seeing it
Speaker 1: through their eyes and and and that was okay, but
Speaker 1: I made point to describe like this is this is
Speaker 1: not you know, it's not normal, and it's way and
Speaker 1: my wife asked me at some point we were driving
Speaker 1: in a car on the Yellowstone Lake and there was
Speaker 1: elk better right by the road, and she goes, have
Speaker 1: you ever been that close to one before? I was
Speaker 1: like a shot one with a bow. How far do
Speaker 1: you think? How far away do you think? I was? Like,
Speaker 1: I just and I just remember her like and I
Speaker 1: know the concept of hunting is not foreign to her,
Speaker 1: and she knows what I do. But it's just this
Speaker 1: interaction with the animals, the dawling of that interaction is
Speaker 1: so depressing, so depressing to somebody who's who's had a
Speaker 1: very like sharpened you know, interaction that's natural. Like you
Speaker 1: standing behind a tree and a bull up that's Jason
Speaker 1: cow runs by you. He's not like feeding by you
Speaker 1: right by a road. I'm pretty sure he might kill
Speaker 1: you if if he knows like something's going he doesn't
Speaker 1: know you were there. He's never seen any humans around there,
Speaker 1: or very few. And he's so contradictory to like the
Speaker 1: people who see those things, like they go to Yellowstone like,
Speaker 1: oh my God saved the elk. I'm like, you don't
Speaker 1: even stand this is nine. This is a robot elk. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you don't understand, Like you're not aware of elkness, Like
Speaker 1: you're not aware of what it elk does behind closed
Speaker 1: doors when it's not attached to the hard road, Like
Speaker 1: you don't understand the being of an elk, like what
Speaker 1: it is, what it really is, and if you have
Speaker 1: to spend a lot of time I don't really Mamber
Speaker 1: even don't know that, but there has been a lot
Speaker 1: of time outside a round elk to understand what an
Speaker 1: elk truly is. What it you know, it's a giant
Speaker 1: forest horse. It's crazy, this animal. It's like it's like
Speaker 1: the difference between going on a date with a hot
Speaker 1: chick and renting a blow up doll. Yeah. I don't
Speaker 1: know if that's a safe assumption, but you still touch it.
Speaker 1: It's still there real that. I didn't know where you're
Speaker 1: going At first, I thought, ship, this is too early
Speaker 1: in the podcast. Have you're going this deep of analogy? Um,
Speaker 1: But no, I think it's like it's you can still
Speaker 1: touch it. It's still there. It looks real. It is real,
Speaker 1: but it's not the real thing. But I like, I
Speaker 1: did appreciate ellis one for the this like the endless splendor,
Speaker 1: like the endless all. Another canyon, another beautiful canyon. Well,
Speaker 1: there's the sunset. That's great. No, it is, it is.
Speaker 1: I do won't diminish all this time in that, but
Speaker 1: I do think the animals and that's why people get gored,
Speaker 1: and that's why there's interaction their signs everywhere. Don't pet
Speaker 1: the mountain lions like they're there, because that human animal
Speaker 1: interaction is is. So it's just to me, it's like
Speaker 1: it's this invalid thing that we've we've created as a
Speaker 1: way to say, oh, I've experienced a false reality. And
Speaker 1: it goes back to like what I was talking about,
Speaker 1: like of the population things, Oh, we drive around in
Speaker 1: trucks and bud lights and shoot stuff from the window.
Speaker 1: I value those in those natural interactional animals and natural
Speaker 1: as they can be in the situation so we create.
Speaker 1: I value like just seeing and elk feeding acrol like
Speaker 1: chasing a cow and feeding across the meadow and bedding
Speaker 1: in the shade and staying up and like I value
Speaker 1: those those insights as much as anything because it's important.
Speaker 1: But um, I was telling, you know, even telling my
Speaker 1: dad when we were there that it just felt, you know,
Speaker 1: it just felt dull and and it felt like people,
Speaker 1: Um maybe just didn't understand what they were what they
Speaker 1: were doing. So how do we, like, how do we
Speaker 1: show or how do we explain or how do we
Speaker 1: put things on the same level again, because I go
Speaker 1: back to but I was the other thing. I'll say,
Speaker 1: it's like there's somebody they were saying, like there's two
Speaker 1: or three deaths a year in Yellowstone. Everybody gets goreed
Speaker 1: by a buffalo or run over by a elk or something.
Speaker 1: I'm like, maybe that's nature's way of being, Like I'll
Speaker 1: let you play at this. I'll let you have your
Speaker 1: little playground that's fake, but I'm gonna take two of you. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna let a million of you in play like
Speaker 1: you're in nature, but I'm taking at least two or
Speaker 1: three of you out Like that's I'm gonna exact that pole.
Speaker 1: You can fake it, and I'll let you fake it.
Speaker 1: I'll even send the buffalo right to the road. But
Speaker 1: two of you are going down. That's the press. You
Speaker 1: get up, that's the tax. But I don't know that
Speaker 1: they're like I just think um. By the very first
Speaker 1: podcast I ever did, Ronelle and I talked about this
Speaker 1: and he said it's hopeless and I said, well, maybe
Speaker 1: there's ed that's a jaded men. There's got to be
Speaker 1: a way. I think they're me too. And I said
Speaker 1: to him, like, there's gotta be a way, and he
Speaker 1: was like, good luck with it. I hope. Let me
Speaker 1: know how what you find out, because there is such
Speaker 1: an incredible chasm between the reality of someone who goes
Speaker 1: outside and and does that not for a living, but
Speaker 1: as part of their livelihood and part of their life.
Speaker 1: It's part of their identity. You're wrapped up in in mountains.
Speaker 1: You feel a different way when you see him mountain
Speaker 1: like you. You feel absolutely different than the person who's
Speaker 1: never hunted and see's about. They're like, wow, that's beautiful.
Speaker 1: It's like a painting. And when I see a mountain,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm it's like this three dimensional thing that I
Speaker 1: can go up that which I go up that rid
Speaker 1: right there. Look at that flat right there, I bet
Speaker 1: el bet right there, and they go across that. It's
Speaker 1: like this three dimensional thing. It's like and other people
Speaker 1: are looking at like a painting, like they can't get
Speaker 1: in there, they can't touch it. I'm like, I've to
Speaker 1: I've touched it. I know what's in there, and so
Speaker 1: I feel like that's one hell of a chasm, and
Speaker 1: not everybody's wanting what was gonna want to go run
Speaker 1: off in the maunt with me? And you you know,
Speaker 1: not everybody's gonna want to do that, desire to do that,
Speaker 1: And I don't want anybody out there that doesn't desire
Speaker 1: to be there anyway. And so I'm not to this point.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how you take somebody who doesn't desire
Speaker 1: to be there and put them there in the way
Speaker 1: that you and I appreciate. And I don't think they
Speaker 1: could ever take me to New York City and show
Speaker 1: me some of the value of New York City in
Speaker 1: a way, because when I look in New York City,
Speaker 1: I look at this like is an incredible aunt hill
Speaker 1: that I don't like that I don't understand. I don't
Speaker 1: really want to be part of. I don't really I
Speaker 1: don't like it. To me, it's like a painting. It's
Speaker 1: just like this thing that I see. I'm not often
Speaker 1: inside of it. I don't get the energy there. But
Speaker 1: if somebody lives in New York City, they're like, dude,
Speaker 1: have you ever been out in Brooklyn on the streets
Speaker 1: after this? And like you feel this energy and it's
Speaker 1: like this beehive of people and ideas and like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, it's great. I dude, that is annoying and loud,
Speaker 1: and I'm much ra would be it smells a lot
Speaker 1: like anxiety. Yeah, that smells like that, Like I can't
Speaker 1: see the horizon, dude, I don't want to be in there,
Speaker 1: and these people like I can see the horizon. Funk.
Speaker 1: That's that's you know. And so there's just there's such
Speaker 1: a difference there and just the way you think about things. Okay,
Speaker 1: left field coming out of left field here. Do you
Speaker 1: think I R A R will have any impact on that?
Speaker 1: Do you think we have the ability to show people?
Speaker 1: I mean, technology is getting crazy, man, Like it's gonna
Speaker 1: be to the point where you can experience on a
Speaker 1: certain level. The interpretation is the interesting part. But you
Speaker 1: could experience everything I've ever experienced, Yes, in a blake
Speaker 1: of an eye. The interpretation is the difference because you
Speaker 1: can put me in New York and your interpretation of
Speaker 1: New York well not yours, but someone who enjoys New
Speaker 1: York is going to have a different interpretation of that
Speaker 1: than me. I'm gonna have anxiety and like get me out.
Speaker 1: One time I stood in line for like an hour
Speaker 1: at Dunkin Donuts to go with bagel, and I had
Speaker 1: the most By the time I was eating that bagel,
Speaker 1: it was like a little piece of bread and anxiety.
Speaker 1: I was like the worst. Just get dude. I think
Speaker 1: this is terrible. But yeah, man, I don't know. I
Speaker 1: think um. I think what hunting has going for it
Speaker 1: particularly is that people in urban areas, people that have
Speaker 1: virtual reality, people that are experiencing this you know, unbelievable energy,
Speaker 1: and even with VR, experience anything they want, you know,
Speaker 1: life is a touch of a button. Like they can
Speaker 1: they can create their own realities. I think you'll never
Speaker 1: be able to escape the ultimate reality of going out
Speaker 1: and experiencing things that are that that can't be manufactured,
Speaker 1: that that are unpredictable, that are you know, beautiful in
Speaker 1: their violent nature, that you know that that is beautiful
Speaker 1: for his dangerous freaking them, and the things that that
Speaker 1: might make it inherently something you don't want to do.
Speaker 1: I think hunting has that going for it. I think
Speaker 1: as the more urban people get, the more they're going
Speaker 1: to have some an a desire to go and see
Speaker 1: what that is, and the more virtual reality they have,
Speaker 1: the more they're gonna want the reality. I think they're
Speaker 1: We've seen it with cell phones. I mean, we've seen
Speaker 1: it with all kinds of technology, and it's already happening
Speaker 1: with with cell phones. They haven't you know, smartphones have
Speaker 1: been around for that long and there's already screen time
Speaker 1: apps where people are trying to figure out how these
Speaker 1: things are negatively affecting their lives. I think hunting has
Speaker 1: that going for it. Escapism is it will help hunting
Speaker 1: in the future. I think I've seen it already. No,
Speaker 1: I think you're right, like the same way, like Instagram
Speaker 1: has created this I don't know, like false reality of
Speaker 1: what we do and don't do. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: it's also put people to go do things they want
Speaker 1: to spend their weekends, and maybe maybe for the wrong reasons,
Speaker 1: maybe they're trying to do it for the Instagram post,
Speaker 1: but at the same time, it's putting people out there,
Speaker 1: and I think the inverse of that is that it
Speaker 1: creates people who want to go out and do things
Speaker 1: because it just kind of puts you in that place
Speaker 1: and a place you wouldn't have gone before, and so
Speaker 1: you know, whether it's you know, virtual reality or augmented reality,
Speaker 1: that that interests you in doing something cool and exciting.
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, man, I want to check this out.
Speaker 1: What is this all about? Do it for real? Now?
Speaker 1: I think that we have that going for us in
Speaker 1: the future, and we really do. And I I've seen
Speaker 1: it and people already. I've taken out people that have
Speaker 1: never left the city and I've taken them out and
Speaker 1: just seeing a landscape, we're just shooting a rifle. Would
Speaker 1: just going on a weekend hunt killing a havelina like
Speaker 1: that could be a life changing experience. I think the
Speaker 1: the ultimate problem is how do you how do you
Speaker 1: get that person to repeat that experience because you need
Speaker 1: a guide, You need somebody to show you, give you
Speaker 1: access to places and show you what to do. So
Speaker 1: I think that's, you know, the ultimate hunter retention issue
Speaker 1: is that. But I think as far as like the
Speaker 1: acceptability of hunting and what you know, going outside and
Speaker 1: what that will look like, I think there's a there's
Speaker 1: a bright light there because that's always going to drive
Speaker 1: people to find what it is there. And then there's
Speaker 1: enough people just out there going like, man, I don't
Speaker 1: give a ship if you like killing animals or not. Like,
Speaker 1: if it makes you squeams to think about shooting an animal,
Speaker 1: I'm telling you that it enriched my life, and you'd
Speaker 1: be a fool not to not to give it a shot.
Speaker 1: You'd be a fool not to give it. And you
Speaker 1: may do do it once, not ever room killing animal
Speaker 1: and just decide that's not for you. I think you're
Speaker 1: foolish not to at least try to escape there once
Speaker 1: and see if that change your perspective in such a
Speaker 1: way that you'd want to need to do it. And
Speaker 1: there'll be plenty of people that want to. Ye. It
Speaker 1: goes back to like it goes to, it's not about
Speaker 1: trying to get everyone in the world or in the
Speaker 1: in our country to pick up hunting and like start
Speaker 1: hunting and doing crazy things, climbing mountains and all this
Speaker 1: crazy bullshit. But it's about the population accepting that it's okay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's it. Is it beneficial? Like the only question that
Speaker 1: needs answers. Is it beneficial to society? That's it? And if,
Speaker 1: like I said, our population says, yeah, sure, it's beneficial
Speaker 1: to all of us that somebody goes out there and
Speaker 1: kills that animal, that go cool, all right, let's keep
Speaker 1: doing it. And as soon as it as soon as
Speaker 1: that switches over becomes the other way, you almost I
Speaker 1: feel like you'll never get it back. Whatever goes that way,
Speaker 1: she going, even escapism like that might help. But once
Speaker 1: society has like let go of of of what hunting is, man,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I would like to think you'd get
Speaker 1: it back, but it's gonna do it would be tough. Really,
Speaker 1: I don't think I think if you get back. So hey, listen, everybody,
Speaker 1: let's hang on to this. Let's let's crawl this thing.
Speaker 1: Let's like keep it around. Yeah, because it's it's it's worrisome.
Speaker 1: But I truly think, like, if we continue to hammer
Speaker 1: away at the problem of like the chasm between the
Speaker 1: non hunter and the hunter and the way they think,
Speaker 1: who continue to try to, like, you know, put a
Speaker 1: thread in between the two of them, eventually you'll have
Speaker 1: a rope and eventual you'll have something to pull on.
Speaker 1: But right now, there's not It's really nothing. That was
Speaker 1: a strong analogy? Was that good? That was really good?
Speaker 1: All right? Put that in the highlights. I don't do
Speaker 1: highlights while starting. You should start with highlights because I
Speaker 1: was like, that's that's good, no oppretending the hashtag that
Speaker 1: we don't have a hashtag hashtag threads to ches um.
Speaker 1: But I truly do believe, like I feel like right
Speaker 1: now there's no thread. Maybe the meat is a thread,
Speaker 1: but it's weak as ship because it doesn't really stand
Speaker 1: up with a long argument. Because, like anybody who's a realist,
Speaker 1: I don't want to compare it to religion, but it's
Speaker 1: like there's a lot of people that have problems with
Speaker 1: certain pieces of things, like the actual like oh wait,
Speaker 1: that doesn't really make sense. So when you come to
Speaker 1: the meat thing, people are like, wait, why so why
Speaker 1: do you go to Nepal to get meat? Wouldn't it
Speaker 1: be closer to go to Like yeah, it's Texas. So
Speaker 1: that's the corner. Like you can't, that's what I mean.
Speaker 1: You can't just have the one thing. And now I'm
Speaker 1: sure you're like me, Like I meet people and you
Speaker 1: tell them you're a hunter, and they look at you
Speaker 1: like you're fucking crazy, and I'm like, dude, it's awesome,
Speaker 1: my life's way better for having done this, And they
Speaker 1: look at you like you are insane to have put
Speaker 1: that fought in your head. And then you and I
Speaker 1: meet people that are I never want to leave the
Speaker 1: city and I look at them like you're in a
Speaker 1: crazy you're crazy, and those those are the that is
Speaker 1: the idea that scares me a little bit, because yeah,
Speaker 1: there's people like just have to mention, like what do
Speaker 1: you do for a living? I'm in the hunting industry.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, you say that it's dangerous. I never
Speaker 1: say that. Now, I say outdoor industry. They push me.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm in the climb mountains like they what
Speaker 1: what do you do when you go up there? I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes I'll bring a bow. Yeah, what do
Speaker 1: you do with that? Before I claim sum Sometimes I'll
Speaker 1: bring my bow and maybe an animal shows up there?
Speaker 1: Like okay, tell me more and I'm all right, I'm
Speaker 1: comfortable now, didn't Yeah. I find there to be like this.
Speaker 1: It's um and then it's see it in every other thing.
Speaker 1: Guns is another one. Some people they're like, do you
Speaker 1: own a R fifteen? I'm like, yeah, have two or
Speaker 1: three of them. They're like you are crazy, Like why
Speaker 1: am I crazy? What are you talking about? This whole
Speaker 1: world is like so enamored with what other people do.
Speaker 1: Just it makes it takes all kinds for the world
Speaker 1: to go around. I truly believe that, like if everyone
Speaker 1: was like me, it'd be a real boring world. I mean,
Speaker 1: we'd all be really cool. I'd start like a mustache
Speaker 1: comb company that there's a lot that many mustaches. Well,
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be creepy, so I wouldn't. I could go
Speaker 1: next to schools and things. But no, people don't know
Speaker 1: is because they people only see Cody on like Instagram
Speaker 1: and things his mustaches. C g I it's not even real.
Speaker 1: It's screen. He did a green screen, so just for
Speaker 1: the Internet. He wears the screen mustache around. It's sucked up.
Speaker 1: That's all Instagram. Well, yeah, you go back to the
Speaker 1: original topic of what we're talking about. Originally we're talking
Speaker 1: about the history of hunting and like conservation started. But
Speaker 1: I think, you know, conservation is one thing that I
Speaker 1: think is an idea that everybody gets. It's like a
Speaker 1: it's a shared value system. The unfortunate thing about conservation
Speaker 1: it is it is not hunting. And unless it's really
Speaker 1: hard to explain to those people, like if conservation like
Speaker 1: like the you know, some groups would would lead you
Speaker 1: to believe that they're one and the same, then it
Speaker 1: would be way easier. But conservation is an idea about
Speaker 1: like value systems of the animal and how you know,
Speaker 1: we think about that animal and what our what our
Speaker 1: role is and keeping it around. Hunting is not that
Speaker 1: at all, Like we have very smartly connected to through necessity,
Speaker 1: but really through you know, visionary people that were like,
Speaker 1: we gotta connect this idea with hunting in the modern sense,
Speaker 1: because sport hunting is you know, it's not conservation. It
Speaker 1: isn't And we got to connect those two ideas. And
Speaker 1: so now here we are in the modern world. This
Speaker 1: is why we go back. And it's easy to say, well,
Speaker 1: I do it for the meat or I do it
Speaker 1: for you know, this is I'm a conservationist. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: there's lots of holes in that theory, but at the
Speaker 1: same time, it doesn't explain it. It doesn't have the
Speaker 1: full effects, so to speak. Yeah, And I don't think
Speaker 1: anti hunter struggle with their ideologies like you and I
Speaker 1: are struggling right now, with which it is interesting, like
Speaker 1: we're too passionate hunters who spent a ton of time,
Speaker 1: who are very confident in our beliefs. Can I explain
Speaker 1: why I know it's a multi faceted question. Can an
Speaker 1: anti hunter explain why he's anti hunting? Which I had
Speaker 1: to spend money started podcast to work through this problem.
Speaker 1: It's like Therapy two are in thirty some episodes figuring
Speaker 1: out that's right, that's right now. And I think anti
Speaker 1: hunters are very like resolute in their animals are sentient beings.
Speaker 1: Don't kill them their sacred, you know, at some level.
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's varying degrees of that. Now. The people
Speaker 1: that truly believe that, like we truly believe in hunting,
Speaker 1: I don't think you're sitting around like, you know what.
Speaker 1: Maybe some animals, maybe like frogs, we could kill them,
Speaker 1: Mosquito maybe they Maybe I don't I've never really sat
Speaker 1: in a room with an Anton or other conversation or
Speaker 1: heard two of them having We should have, and I'd
Speaker 1: love to. I try to get a guy um uh
Speaker 1: named Jeffrey flocking on if you're listening to this, Jeffrey,
Speaker 1: which is definitely not Yeah, just have you just happen
Speaker 1: to be listening, Hey, jeff Hey, jeff um he's in
Speaker 1: the I think it's the International Animal Welfare or something
Speaker 1: like that. Let you say I really know a lot
Speaker 1: about Jeffrey, but he um, I try to have him
Speaker 1: when he's he's a staunch anti and he has a
Speaker 1: lot of good ideas, like he has you know, mostly
Speaker 1: about Africa or feeling and those things. But I would
Speaker 1: I wanted really to talk to him about his ideas
Speaker 1: around you know, our value system because he he pokes
Speaker 1: a lot of holes in and the hunting's like you know, armor,
Speaker 1: like the conservation thing and those ethics, and and he
Speaker 1: doesn't is what I feel like is a good job
Speaker 1: of sussing out some of the things that need to
Speaker 1: be talked about from from a completely different chasm. And
Speaker 1: he does it pretty you know, he does it in
Speaker 1: a smart way. But even then I think him and
Speaker 1: I would just you know, we probably never get anywhere.
Speaker 1: We probably wouldn't. It was because I imagine, I don't
Speaker 1: imagine that he questions his stuff the way I questioned
Speaker 1: my stuff. Obviously he's a vegan, I hope, so yeah,
Speaker 1: because if not, it's a little bit tough. But um,
Speaker 1: excuse me, I'm trinking taking a drink of whiskey. That's
Speaker 1: the best on my bike, right out of whiskey. It's
Speaker 1: gonna be a long podcast. I know, I'm just sipping.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, So I think I wonder, you know,
Speaker 1: because that anti hunter thing is so such an emotional deal.
Speaker 1: That's such a you know, when you're emotional not something
Speaker 1: you pretty damn said on what that thing is, then
Speaker 1: you're not the best way to go into any argument.
Speaker 1: And I would like, I would love to go about
Speaker 1: this with an anti hunter, say Jeffrey, for example, would
Speaker 1: be to go into the argument and it's not arguments,
Speaker 1: just just got discussion, and say what would make you
Speaker 1: think the opposite? Yeah, because if the answer is nothing,
Speaker 1: then I might as well argue with the chair next
Speaker 1: to me, you know what I mean. And I feel
Speaker 1: like that's where anti hunter's come from. So if someone
Speaker 1: are to come to me and say, hey, what would
Speaker 1: make you think the opposite? What would make you think
Speaker 1: that hunting was bad for me personally? It would calm
Speaker 1: down to like and obviously that timeline on this, because
Speaker 1: if you said, hey, listen, you have to stop hunting
Speaker 1: for ELK to survive. Absolutely, I mean, if you said, hey,
Speaker 1: you have to stop hunting for ten years, man, really like,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna try to help you come up with a
Speaker 1: better solution. Let's figure this out. Let's try to figure
Speaker 1: that out of five. But if you're really run this
Speaker 1: through like every algorithm you have, then I would do it.
Speaker 1: So I can't say I'm incapable of discussion, right, Like
Speaker 1: you could come discuss this with me, like if they're
Speaker 1: a way, like what is a what is the problem
Speaker 1: and what is what is your proposed solution? And if
Speaker 1: your problem is that there's not enough elk, well, let's
Speaker 1: arguable right now we have plenty of elk. But if
Speaker 1: your solution is not hunting, okay, let's let's work through that.
Speaker 1: And like that's what I'm just curious, like what would
Speaker 1: an anti hunter solution be? And or what is the problem? Love? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean what would if that you said, Hey, what's
Speaker 1: you know? What would get you to go hunting and
Speaker 1: kill that animal and find out to be beneficial for
Speaker 1: not only yourself but society and that bad animal in
Speaker 1: the natural world? You know, I always wondered, like I
Speaker 1: would start with the value system. It's like, look, man,
Speaker 1: you love this animal like you love it like this
Speaker 1: is your like you you believe that that animal is
Speaker 1: as is important at some level as your life, Like
Speaker 1: it's and then you feel responsible for standing up for
Speaker 1: that life because you feel like it's equal to yours,
Speaker 1: Like that thing has rights, you have rights. You know,
Speaker 1: you're a good person for standing up for what you
Speaker 1: believe in in that way, like being an animal rights
Speaker 1: person doesn't mean you're a bad person. Now, people that
Speaker 1: manifest their animal rights activism and like death threats and
Speaker 1: ship we can talk about them later. But but guys
Speaker 1: that are just truly believe that this animal has the
Speaker 1: right to live and that that they cannot be the
Speaker 1: arbiter when it lives or dies because it has those
Speaker 1: rights and they wouldn't want those rights taken. You know,
Speaker 1: we call that murder and ore and that's why they're
Speaker 1: always like hunting is murder because they're equating that, you know,
Speaker 1: the choosing to take life as opposed to like the
Speaker 1: necessity of it. So I would just say, like we
Speaker 1: both like, let's strip away that and be like I
Speaker 1: care about that and I love that animal. I love
Speaker 1: it like I want them all to like live great
Speaker 1: lives and be they and they have rights in my eyes,
Speaker 1: And you think the same, Ship, like you think the
Speaker 1: same thing. I think. Let's okay, now, let's bring back.
Speaker 1: Let's bring back hunting and not hunting anti hunting into
Speaker 1: the conversation. Now, I were both starting from the same
Speaker 1: starting point, but we're walking opposite directions, like you're walking, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm walking this way, and we're getting further apart all
Speaker 1: the time. Like, well, we started in the same place.
Speaker 1: All we have to do is turn around and walk
Speaker 1: towards each other. But we're what we're so now set
Speaker 1: in our direction to that we have to travel that
Speaker 1: we can't turn around, face each other and have a conversation.
Speaker 1: And that's a problem. And I would start there be
Speaker 1: like if if we can start with that value system
Speaker 1: and start having that conversation. I love the animal, You
Speaker 1: love the animal. I don't wish ill on it. You
Speaker 1: don't wish ill on it. I want them to be
Speaker 1: around forever. You want to be around forever. What the
Speaker 1: hell are we doing? Man? Yeah, we need to have
Speaker 1: we live in in the North American model of wildlife
Speaker 1: conservation is literally the most unique we can talk about Africa.
Speaker 1: And because they don't have that same value starting point
Speaker 1: now I do, and as Jeffrey, because the locals don't.
Speaker 1: They don't. Yeah, so that but but luckily here in America.
Speaker 1: We have that shared value system with everyone nine hunters, Like,
Speaker 1: there's not a whole lot of people like funking man,
Speaker 1: I wish it all the deer would just go away.
Speaker 1: They're so annoying. They're probably yeah, they're like guys that
Speaker 1: running botanical gardens, but yeah, So I think that there's
Speaker 1: very few people that I would just out and now
Speaker 1: and say, like I wish they would all go away,
Speaker 1: which means we all want them to be here. Here
Speaker 1: we are, We're on the same page. We're on the
Speaker 1: same page. Um, we're just unlucky enough to have like
Speaker 1: one person on one side wanted to kill it and
Speaker 1: eat its flesh and the other person wanted to pet
Speaker 1: it and send it to a park, Like if you
Speaker 1: had a wild ass. Guess how this turns out years
Speaker 1: from now. Hunting loses really hard, this scary time hard.
Speaker 1: I think we're just in the middle of itl we
Speaker 1: don't even know what we kind of know. We always
Speaker 1: everybody like even me, I'm always trying out to like
Speaker 1: a living point five millions down for fourteen four five
Speaker 1: million license holders. Like, we're in the middle of it,
Speaker 1: and I don't know that we really know what it's
Speaker 1: going to be in twenty years because we're like it's
Speaker 1: it's going to lose, it's going to I truly believe that.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know what lou. I don't
Speaker 1: want to say like it's gonna end. They will be outlawed,
Speaker 1: but it they're definitely gonna it's going to be. I
Speaker 1: think that grizzly bearth thing and in British Columbia is
Speaker 1: is that the future? To me? Like, how could you
Speaker 1: not think that? Go back to the nineteen seventies and
Speaker 1: tell me you know what urbanization has done from nov Yeah,
Speaker 1: well did you think urbanization isn't isn't accelerating? Yeah? And
Speaker 1: so tell me in twenty years twenty years ago, you know,
Speaker 1: tell me twenty more years of urbanization what that's going
Speaker 1: to continue to do. That strange thing is like urbanization
Speaker 1: is going to crush the animals more than hunting ever
Speaker 1: thought of it, and then we're going to get blamed
Speaker 1: for it. Well that you talk about parks and you
Speaker 1: talk about you know how many you switch it back
Speaker 1: to Yellowstone or even that you go back to Africa,
Speaker 1: like if you want, if you don't want any trophy
Speaker 1: hunting in Africa, and you don't want that, and you
Speaker 1: want to take away that value in the animal. You
Speaker 1: want to try to value that same animal through photo safaris.
Speaker 1: You have to run so many more people, so such
Speaker 1: bigger footprint to impact that ecosystem, and a more dramatic
Speaker 1: way than a few hunters going over there to shoot
Speaker 1: one big critter. And so it's not that's not a
Speaker 1: simple equation at all. No, And it changes, and not
Speaker 1: to mention changes the whole dynamic of things, because you know,
Speaker 1: if you're talking about killing one out of first fifty
Speaker 1: people taking a picture of an olk, you get oak,
Speaker 1: like the Yellowstone who has lost their soul and turned
Speaker 1: into a blow up doll. Yeah, and that's what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like we're allowed, like we allow that, and we have
Speaker 1: to allow it. But I do think hunting I will
Speaker 1: always be around in some form, but I think public
Speaker 1: reception is going to start to eat it, eat in
Speaker 1: its core. It's gonna have to there's no you know,
Speaker 1: I I go, I say that, and I will say
Speaker 1: the thing about escapism. But I think escapism and those
Speaker 1: types of things will continue to allow it to be
Speaker 1: around for sure. Yeah, But we went from having Amazon
Speaker 1: be able to deliver the other like a couple of
Speaker 1: When Amazon Prime first came out, my wife we were
Speaker 1: having some friends. Ever, my wife got like a cake,
Speaker 1: some playing cards, and uh, like a tire iron delivered
Speaker 1: to our house she ordered online. It came two hours later.
Speaker 1: Like that concept did exist ten years ago. That was
Speaker 1: so out in left field ten years ago. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: so now Amazon's like taking over the country and and
Speaker 1: they're gonna be drone delivering things to your house, and
Speaker 1: we're gonna be more more more connected disconnected every generation
Speaker 1: going forward. So maybe twenty years is a little short
Speaker 1: short time because that's only a couple of humans from now,
Speaker 1: but maybe fifty years or seventy five years, it's gonna
Speaker 1: be hard to find a human that really thinks the
Speaker 1: way you and I do. And I don't think that
Speaker 1: means Honey will go away, but I think it means
Speaker 1: it's gonna be it's gonna play this incredibly small role
Speaker 1: in society. And I'd mean interested to see how Europe's
Speaker 1: hunting and like this is something I should know, but
Speaker 1: I would have to go back and like do some
Speaker 1: research and figure out how because because hunting in Europe
Speaker 1: became very much a privatized first person. It was always
Speaker 1: an aristocracy over there, and like that goes all the
Speaker 1: way back to India that you know, does it go
Speaker 1: that far bank, Well, let's just say Europe. I'm not
Speaker 1: know his storian either, so I want to act like
Speaker 1: I am. But the aristocracy was always you know, I've
Speaker 1: been in places like Bulgaria where the aristocracy, like the hunted.
Speaker 1: The only counting culture they know is the aristocracy high
Speaker 1: fence hunting preserves where the communist dictators would bring all
Speaker 1: their you know, dictator buddies, like that's the hunting cultures
Speaker 1: that they know, and that was here in the eight hundreds.
Speaker 1: Well that's here too. And then look at Texas, Texas
Speaker 1: is this is I lived there. It is the closest
Speaker 1: thing to an aristocracy for hunting that that you could find.
Speaker 1: I'm just curious if that's what we had being could be,
Speaker 1: if history repeats itself, could be, and that that that means,
Speaker 1: you know, one of the most I think one of
Speaker 1: the most important things about our current model and why
Speaker 1: it works is the wild life as a trust like
Speaker 1: it doesn't belong. It lives in the state, but it
Speaker 1: does not belong. It belongs to the people. It doesn't
Speaker 1: belong to anyone, but it's managed by a state. But
Speaker 1: it you know, it can come. And as soon as
Speaker 1: you start to privatize lands to the point that Texas has,
Speaker 1: and then you can put a fence up and then
Speaker 1: you can then you've privatized the wild life, it's no
Speaker 1: longer in trust um. And so that's like a nuclear
Speaker 1: no offense Texas. But there's like some nuclear ideas in
Speaker 1: in what Texas does right now. There's some pretty cool
Speaker 1: things they do, but mostly nuclear. If you would go
Speaker 1: down the tenants of the North North American Mile of
Speaker 1: Wilife Conservation, they don't follow any of like maybe one
Speaker 1: of them, two of them, and so be that's that's allowed.
Speaker 1: We're not going now with bulldozers and bulldozs and the
Speaker 1: fences down because it doesn't line up with our ideologies
Speaker 1: right now. And so I just think that that that's
Speaker 1: one reality, but I think that the other realities that
Speaker 1: hunting as hunting takes on less of an importance in society.
Speaker 1: We'll find ways around hunting's connection to conservation, will find
Speaker 1: raise around hunting's connection to meat. We'll find it, just
Speaker 1: find ways around it. No that's that's a legitimate fare,
Speaker 1: and I think that's probably a closer to whatever it
Speaker 1: would be. I mean in New Zealand they raised red
Speaker 1: deer like cattle. Yeah, there's a lot of pieces to
Speaker 1: that puzzle early on that dictated that. Same with Texas.
Speaker 1: I mean Texas had the ALBUMA, they never had public land. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then Texas was when when we require Texas it
Speaker 1: was all state, yes, state private lynds. Anyway, there was
Speaker 1: never any they never part of this. There was no
Speaker 1: Louisiana purchase where they could just they would say we
Speaker 1: declare this and this, and then it was already privatized land.
Speaker 1: So which is early pieces of puzzle. And I'm not
Speaker 1: justifying what they're what they have done, or how it operates,
Speaker 1: say with the New Zealand like market creates that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and true capitalism that's sometimes the problem. I'm very pro capitalism,
Speaker 1: but there are certain problems to that. So like with
Speaker 1: New Zealand, Oh look we make extra dollars when this
Speaker 1: stag is bigger, non repeats itself. So then it just
Speaker 1: gets out of control because people like to make dollars something. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's man, it's a super complicated topic. And I'm
Speaker 1: sure I wish I and better perspectives on those other
Speaker 1: histories and to inform it, but I don't know that
Speaker 1: there is a I would love for somebody to really
Speaker 1: take me through an example of how wildlife management changed
Speaker 1: in an area, in a place, in a country, in
Speaker 1: a region, in a content. I'll give a ship what
Speaker 1: it is. But like if and maybe Africa is the
Speaker 1: one when they started forming concessions and they went from
Speaker 1: almost no wild life to a bunch of wildlife behind
Speaker 1: fences and started taking in money from troph hunters. Like
Speaker 1: that's a seed change in the way that they see animals,
Speaker 1: but a sea change from necessity. You know, we don't
Speaker 1: have a lot of necessity when it comes to wildlife
Speaker 1: in this country. You know, we have a lot of elk,
Speaker 1: we got a lot of deer. We gotta you know,
Speaker 1: wild game at least um. We got a lot of turkeys,
Speaker 1: We got plenty of sheep, you know, but no one's
Speaker 1: ever had the public ground that we have so ak,
Speaker 1: no one's ever had the public animals that we've ever had.
Speaker 1: So yeah, those are those concepts are all within hunting.
Speaker 1: But it's like I think it always goes back to
Speaker 1: public perception. None of that ship matters. If the public
Speaker 1: doesn't none of that ship matters. If the public doesn't
Speaker 1: understand the good, people think you're wrong. Guess what you're wrong.
Speaker 1: And in this case, like if the public doesn't understand
Speaker 1: the good and hunting, I feel like we're just kind
Speaker 1: of like floating through and we like don't really we
Speaker 1: aren't really in ownership of it. Be guys, man, I
Speaker 1: don't know what the numbers are, but I would assume
Speaker 1: that O don't agree with hunting right now. Like if
Speaker 1: we took a national poll to tomorrow and people like, hey,
Speaker 1: something good or bad? That's what I mean. That's what
Speaker 1: I mean by like in twenty years, it could be
Speaker 1: twenty years. I'm talking about tomorrow. That's what I mean.
Speaker 1: Do you think it passed? I think it half. I've
Speaker 1: seen poles where it has passed, but it's always it's
Speaker 1: it's changed, right because modern sport hunting has changed the
Speaker 1: way people think about Like they split hunting into two camps.
Speaker 1: Non hunter has turphy hunting and regular you know, ethical
Speaker 1: man hunting where he eats the meat, you know, but
Speaker 1: they split it into two camps. So you have already
Speaker 1: taken an activity and split it up like some of
Speaker 1: it's good someone it's bad. Now. Parts of that I
Speaker 1: agree with, But that's you know, for the eleven point
Speaker 1: five million hunters that buy licenses to be split into
Speaker 1: these two groups with good hunters and bad hunters, now
Speaker 1: you're eleven point five doesn't seem quite a strong. I
Speaker 1: don't know how many quote unquote trophy hunters there are
Speaker 1: out there that that are in the eleven point five million,
Speaker 1: but I would say that I would say that of
Speaker 1: that eleven point five million, the ones that are trophy
Speaker 1: hunters by definition that the not by the non hunters
Speaker 1: definition of the term are would would not pass public approval.
Speaker 1: If you ask, is trophy hunting okay to the entirety
Speaker 1: of the population in this country, you would you would
Speaker 1: get overwhelming getting out of how do you even like
Speaker 1: compete with the media? But trophy hunting, the trophy hunting
Speaker 1: term is there like to delineate the bad hunting, isn't it? Yeah?
Speaker 1: But I'm a treasure hunter, yea treasure treasure bucks hashtag
Speaker 1: treasure bucks. Yeah. I mean, I think I think that's
Speaker 1: the problem that we've corded off a bad portion and
Speaker 1: that's not necessarily always true. Troph hunting isn't necessarily always
Speaker 1: a bad thing, but but public perception was what we're
Speaker 1: just there, see the hunter whatever you wanna call it.
Speaker 1: Air quotes hunter definition of our hunter. Way to combat
Speaker 1: trophy hunting is to say we're meat hunters, which is
Speaker 1: b s. It's bullshit, and the conservation is the other one.
Speaker 1: We say those two, which there's holes in it, And
Speaker 1: so people probably get tired of me saying that's doesn't
Speaker 1: cover everything. I just say, like, hunting is the thing
Speaker 1: I love, and the experience and all the things. There's
Speaker 1: all things wrapped up in the experience, and people heard
Speaker 1: me say it's a million times. But by products, the
Speaker 1: byproducts of that experience is meat and conservation. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: always aware that it's there, but there's are not the
Speaker 1: reasons I'm doing the things I'm doing, like, they just aren't.
Speaker 1: I think the better answer is to go after the experience,
Speaker 1: to go after this embodiment of everything we do wrapped
Speaker 1: into one because well, let's try to name I bet
Speaker 1: you can name like twenty things that embody the experience.
Speaker 1: Time outside alone time and nature, time with time spent
Speaker 1: with close friends, and this the camaraderie, this super three
Speaker 1: dimensional experience that's like highs and lows. The challenge, the
Speaker 1: skills um that the the innate skills that you have
Speaker 1: to learn about, the unknown, dangerous, the unknown, the disconnection.
Speaker 1: But like there's ten right there. The thing I will
Speaker 1: say is that this adventure, it's society people and you
Speaker 1: can see this watching Instagram. People are interested in going
Speaker 1: on new adventures, going new places, experiencing new things. And
Speaker 1: when they understand that capacity, they understand like, man, I
Speaker 1: really love going adventuring, hiking, whatever may be right. When
Speaker 1: you're like, hey, this is if we can relate that
Speaker 1: to hunting, I mean it's the same thing, it's only better. Yeah, man, boy,
Speaker 1: there's some good there's like I said, there's some good
Speaker 1: threads in there, and we'll continue to try to connect them.
Speaker 1: And I think I think they can be connected because
Speaker 1: and I I'm unwilling to to to give up on it,
Speaker 1: even though I think it's it's looking at it with
Speaker 1: just clear vision and saying hey man, they ain't looking good.
Speaker 1: Then the public perception side, it's not look the public
Speaker 1: perception specifically what I'm talking about twenty years it ain't
Speaker 1: going the right way, escapism being what it is, you know,
Speaker 1: meat like the wild meat movement being what it is,
Speaker 1: the hunt fit movement being what it is. All those
Speaker 1: things combined that those forces are not strong enough to
Speaker 1: change public perception in the way that it needs to
Speaker 1: be changed. Now, maybe something comes up and happens later
Speaker 1: on that I'm not aware of currently. Um. I would
Speaker 1: even lump conservation into that because it's such an entangled
Speaker 1: mess of truths and half truths and things that we've
Speaker 1: talked about. So I think I think all those forces
Speaker 1: being positive are not enough to fight freaking urbanism, to
Speaker 1: fight urbanization it's growing at a crazy rate, to fight technology,
Speaker 1: to fight the way humans think and pursue the world.
Speaker 1: Like those things are changing way faster than the forces
Speaker 1: of positive forces of hunting can combat them. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: just because this is like your podcast, I will say,
Speaker 1: like my theory and I don't want to like downtrot
Speaker 1: the meat aspect of it, because I do. I do
Speaker 1: really truly believe that people get into this. They tell
Speaker 1: themselves like, oh man, I'm gonna do it for the meat,
Speaker 1: and that's awesome. That's great, I laugh, because you're gonna
Speaker 1: experience so much more. It's gonna change your life. And
Speaker 1: it's so cool that, like meat is what we tell ourselves.
Speaker 1: I see, so I see it all the time. People
Speaker 1: are like, yeah, I just I just really wanted to
Speaker 1: get out there and I want to harvest my own meat.
Speaker 1: And I laugh because I'm like, you're about to experience
Speaker 1: a life. It's so crazy and the experiences so rich.
Speaker 1: They'll just change your perception. I think it goes but
Speaker 1: like this goes way back to the very start of
Speaker 1: this conversation where we're talking about like how do you
Speaker 1: make a decision? How how do you And I'm saying, like,
Speaker 1: just don't get caught up on one destination, dude. If
Speaker 1: you if you're just out there for me, you miss
Speaker 1: so much ship that it's silly, like you just if
Speaker 1: you're out there just for the head of the animal,
Speaker 1: you miss so much stuff. If you're out there just
Speaker 1: like man, the carrying capacity of this land, I gotta
Speaker 1: I gotta kill seventy five deer over the next year,
Speaker 1: and you're out there just popping deer to get your
Speaker 1: seventy five number, which I don't know a lot of
Speaker 1: people do that, but that's conservation and like maybe it's
Speaker 1: a raws for him, but you know, if you're doing
Speaker 1: all that, you're just missing out on thinks. So I
Speaker 1: think I think most people that I've talked to on
Speaker 1: this podcast are are down with like the the idea
Speaker 1: that this experience is something that we all need to
Speaker 1: work on together, and that that there's no way to
Speaker 1: define it for all of us, but we all need
Speaker 1: to work on defining it somehow, Like let's all continue
Speaker 1: to to to kind of hammer away at it and
Speaker 1: see where we get how we can use that experiential
Speaker 1: story to to make it a little more relatable and
Speaker 1: going back, like I really do believe that the way
Speaker 1: I tell it, the way you tell it, the way
Speaker 1: Cal tells it, whoever, everyone's gonna have a little bit
Speaker 1: different story because it's like what's important to them, it's
Speaker 1: a little more important of it. And you know, maybe
Speaker 1: adventure and pushing yourself is more important to me, but
Speaker 1: to Callahan, it's like meat is number one. And that's
Speaker 1: fine because there's gonna be people regular that resonate with
Speaker 1: what Cal says, and there's people resonate what I say,
Speaker 1: and like this just there's a million ways to do it,
Speaker 1: to do it, but at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: like it's so important. Well, that's right, That's why I
Speaker 1: like your podcast and the things that you do are
Speaker 1: important to me because I want them to succeed because
Speaker 1: it's important. I think that there's a I've talked about
Speaker 1: this before and this is the other thing that I
Speaker 1: don't think it's quite powerful enough to get hunting in
Speaker 1: the future where it needs to be. But there's a
Speaker 1: group of like year old folks that are just now
Speaker 1: discovering hunting for the first time through people like you,
Speaker 1: through people like Callahands, people like Ronella, and they feel
Speaker 1: like they have a community of people that want to
Speaker 1: excites them and energize them, inspires them to go hunting,
Speaker 1: but also continues to be a part of their lot
Speaker 1: like potential to be a part of their lives and
Speaker 1: motivates them to do it. Gives them a feeling a
Speaker 1: community where there may not be a community for them,
Speaker 1: because there's a lot of people that live in suburban
Speaker 1: areas or that live in urban areas that go hunt,
Speaker 1: but they don't have a bunch of buddies that do
Speaker 1: when they need something. And I think your content and
Speaker 1: other people's content like yours will allow that demo to
Speaker 1: create a new generation of hunters just in there is
Speaker 1: big enough to really get us where we want to go.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm kind of you know, I'm back
Speaker 1: and forth skeptical even in this conversation, back and forth,
Speaker 1: what how how I think that's going to help us
Speaker 1: for sure, But I do think that's that's the ultimate solution.
Speaker 1: Should there be Should you have to list one thing? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's uh two parts of that. One part is like
Speaker 1: people always give me a lot of flak for giving
Speaker 1: away secrets and all this, and I'm like, listen, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna get I'm gonna be successful whether I give everyone
Speaker 1: the answer or not. And the more people I can
Speaker 1: help be successful, the longer they do it. Because I've
Speaker 1: I've met people. I just this weekend we had it
Speaker 1: with some guys with the hushing and the born Ares
Speaker 1: guys and the guy you know, started hunting eight years ago.
Speaker 1: It's still not successful, never killed a big game animal.
Speaker 1: Like if he hadn't given up yet, like he's probably fine,
Speaker 1: but people would have given up by this point. And
Speaker 1: so you know, for me, it goes back to like, hey,
Speaker 1: helping people be successful because I truly believe if you
Speaker 1: find success, you will be hooked. And I think too
Speaker 1: many people come into this. I hate to use the
Speaker 1: word sport, but whatever you wanna call it, don't find
Speaker 1: success and give up. And you know, maybe they're not
Speaker 1: anti hunters, but they're definitely not promponents. I'm not driving
Speaker 1: the next person next to them. Yea, well not in
Speaker 1: the hunting culture. We're all a part of it. It is.
Speaker 1: It's more about success and it is about failure. Um
Speaker 1: just inherently. Um. I think that's natural and okay at
Speaker 1: some level. But also you know, I think we need
Speaker 1: to be cognizant of those people out there that are
Speaker 1: looking to connect with failure, like they're looking to be
Speaker 1: like man, that damn that fell on Instagram. So he's
Speaker 1: always turned up with the dead animal. He seems like
Speaker 1: once every couple of months turned up with his dead animal,
Speaker 1: and I never never see him sticking airs into the
Speaker 1: ground or anything like that. I think it's important just
Speaker 1: to tell that whole story too, because that that helps people.
Speaker 1: But there is man, just just I think, just by
Speaker 1: evidence of this conversation, it's such a twisted like twisted
Speaker 1: it yeah, man, And so it's good to start conversations
Speaker 1: for sure, and um, I hope people can can think
Speaker 1: about because even this. But what I say away from
Speaker 1: this conversation is like, there's so many hopeful things that
Speaker 1: you can talk about. But at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: and I've said this before, but at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, if hunting was a business, you would not
Speaker 1: buy stock right today. I don't think you would. Wow,
Speaker 1: I never thought about it like that. I don't think
Speaker 1: you would. I mean if you would say, like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, less people are doing it, more people don't
Speaker 1: understand it, and that is those both those trends are
Speaker 1: going in the wrong. And if you were an investor
Speaker 1: and hunting, you'd be figuring out how you'd be like
Speaker 1: to make it popularly, like yeah, you'd be figuring out
Speaker 1: how you'd also be like, well, I bought in in
Speaker 1: the eighties at eighteen five, I really thought, and I
Speaker 1: thought we'd be like thirty five by now and I
Speaker 1: could cash out and make my money. But we're down
Speaker 1: there at eleven five. So I gotta stick with this
Speaker 1: thing because I'm not gonna get out and lose all.
Speaker 1: And so I firmly believe that. But I and I
Speaker 1: believe we all need to know that, Like, these conversations
Speaker 1: only as good as the perspective that we have about
Speaker 1: what's going on. You know, that's a eye opening perspective
Speaker 1: because if you're an investor in hunting, and you should be,
Speaker 1: you should probably be doing your damnedest to fix that stock. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's why I think, you know, I work for
Speaker 1: a brand that feels that, Like, you know, that's why
Speaker 1: why I think it's a little more incumbent upon you know,
Speaker 1: all of us brands, media folks, you know, influencers, whoever
Speaker 1: is to continue to understand that like things not doing
Speaker 1: too good, it's not doing it. And there's I mean,
Speaker 1: there's articles in Forbes about the issue with conservation funding
Speaker 1: and the fact there's less hunters, you know, less people
Speaker 1: there to fund the fund state wildlife agencies. Like people
Speaker 1: are starting to take notice that, like this thing is
Speaker 1: from the street level. Do you think it is, though,
Speaker 1: because I feel like from the street level, I feel like, man,
Speaker 1: and maybe it's just because I'm engulfed in it a
Speaker 1: lot more than I used to be, But I feel
Speaker 1: like there's so many more people hunting, and I get
Speaker 1: you talk about West first East coast thing. That's hard.
Speaker 1: I can't quantify that number. I just really trust and
Speaker 1: whoever did that survey, I do not have time to
Speaker 1: do my own survey. Maybe they just crack down on
Speaker 1: the number of dudes buying what licenses for their wives,
Speaker 1: and like we just got that number in a half. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that could be. Yeah, I mean I hope they're right.
Speaker 1: Well I hope they're wrong. I hope those numbers are
Speaker 1: terribly wrong. But at some level there there are what
Speaker 1: they are. It's always been. We look at the trends
Speaker 1: it since the nineteen eighties and number has been kind
Speaker 1: of so we were celebrating re member like twenty eleven.
Speaker 1: Maybe we were celebrating like it didn't go down. There
Speaker 1: was a short time where some numbers came out and
Speaker 1: it went from you know, fourteen million to fourteen five
Speaker 1: or something over a very short period of time. I'm
Speaker 1: just kind of making that up in my head, but
Speaker 1: there was a period of time where hunting had had
Speaker 1: kind of flatlined and wasn't consistently going down, and that
Speaker 1: was like a celebration like wait did it why we're
Speaker 1: women game? And they're saying and then but then precipitously
Speaker 1: boom fell right off the cliff, and the next in
Speaker 1: the next five years. It's all that one in a
Speaker 1: million times. Yeah, I think that. I think that's. Um,
Speaker 1: that's why I like to have these conversations because it's
Speaker 1: it's it's it's as important to me as anything that
Speaker 1: I have outside of my family. And and that's why
Speaker 1: I'm unwilling to have just one idea about it, unwilling
Speaker 1: to be like hunting. It has to be this and
Speaker 1: will always be this, and this is the right way
Speaker 1: to do it. And if you don't do it this way,
Speaker 1: you're screwed. Like I'm always contradicting myself and I'll just
Speaker 1: never to get to pent if you only do it
Speaker 1: your way. Yeah, that's why I'm always rethinking things. I
Speaker 1: just said. Was that right? Right? I had solid reasoning
Speaker 1: around it, but maybe it wasn't even right. Dude. I
Speaker 1: get that way. When I'm like halfway through a sense,
Speaker 1: I'm like, wait a minute, where was it going. I
Speaker 1: don't know if that's right. Keep going with it, just
Speaker 1: run it, going with it well before we go, Um,
Speaker 1: I want you to try to, like, you know, we
Speaker 1: were talking about entre being an entrepreneur earlier, Um, and
Speaker 1: you you are one and uh successful one? Um, do
Speaker 1: you have any In an episode, I think fourteen talks
Speaker 1: to Casey Butler about kind of the same idea, like
Speaker 1: what is it that allows you to you know, make
Speaker 1: a jump and not have a nine five and really
Speaker 1: just take what like your own idea isn't turn them
Speaker 1: in that your livelihood? Like what is what would you
Speaker 1: tell people who have that question, because there's truly is
Speaker 1: a lot of them, which it's it's tough for me
Speaker 1: to answer that in the capacity that I've never actually
Speaker 1: had a ninety five. Um, so I don't know any
Speaker 1: other way. But one of my biggest motivators, and Kelsie
Speaker 1: will tell you this because like when I'm there's bad days.
Speaker 1: Everyone has bad days, especially entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs actually have twice
Speaker 1: as many bad days fun fact. Um. She's like, well,
Speaker 1: you can always go get a job. And to me
Speaker 1: that it's just like the number one thing that motivates
Speaker 1: me to push harder. It's like, I don't, man, I
Speaker 1: can't do it. I can't work for anyone else. But
Speaker 1: I think that stems from man, you only get one life,
Speaker 1: you like, you only get one life and it's so short.
Speaker 1: Do what you're gonna do. And like, I don't know
Speaker 1: why or how I ended up with that mentality. I'm
Speaker 1: just super thankful that I have it. But there's nothing
Speaker 1: like entrepreneurship is my oxygen, the same way hunting it
Speaker 1: is like, and I I think about this a lot.
Speaker 1: I was hunting this last weekend and I haven't got
Speaker 1: a chance to hunt a lot just because I've been
Speaker 1: busy grinding. But I was like, man, I love hunting.
Speaker 1: It was ringing, it was terrible. We didn't see a
Speaker 1: bear all weekend, and I loved it. And I was
Speaker 1: just laughing at myself, thinking like, man, this is my oxygen.
Speaker 1: This is what keeps me going through the hard times.
Speaker 1: And think the same capacity to flip side of that
Speaker 1: is that entrepreneurship to me is like the same thing.
Speaker 1: And then it doesn't necessarily have to be entrepreneurship. I
Speaker 1: think doing things you love that's what's important, whether that's
Speaker 1: for yourself or you know the company you work for.
Speaker 1: If you believe in the company your work when you're
Speaker 1: doing it, you know what you love, that's what's important,
Speaker 1: and that's all that's it. But the reality is just
Speaker 1: do what love, because it's not that hard to make
Speaker 1: a living doing what you truly enjoy. And that doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be for yourself. I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people struggle through life trying to work for themselves themselves.
Speaker 1: When you could work for a company you truly believe it,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like you could sitting at
Speaker 1: the opposday, Well, I've I've never worked for myself. Um,
Speaker 1: but you've worked for awesome companies. You've done awesome things. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's right. These companies is like you you're selling a
Speaker 1: little bit of yourself to them, Like you're selling that
Speaker 1: connection in the belief of what they do. And you
Speaker 1: don't have you don't have overall control of the thing,
Speaker 1: but you have to be proud to be part of it.
Speaker 1: And that's I think that's the difference. And if you're
Speaker 1: part of something really cool, then that's okay. To the
Speaker 1: point that you're part of something you don't really believe
Speaker 1: in and you're just nine to five and then but
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've been there as well as where you know,
Speaker 1: you had to take a leap of faith absolutely taking
Speaker 1: a marketing job and your journalist like, yeah, to take
Speaker 1: that leap of faith and it boils down to like, hey,
Speaker 1: it feels right, the vibes right, the energy is right,
Speaker 1: the chakras right. Yeah, you call it. But at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, you get one run, man, one run.
Speaker 1: Do what you want to do, because it's not like
Speaker 1: you're blessed to be in America where you can be
Speaker 1: like to damn a journalist, marketer. What is the name
Speaker 1: where market markets? Market is market? Um? Wait wait, I
Speaker 1: coined that too. We got a lot of stuff. We
Speaker 1: gotta say, you off this one. So many hashtags? So many?
Speaker 1: Do you think I should have a hashtag for this podcast?
Speaker 1: What is your hashtag? Don't have one? Cash Eggs died
Speaker 1: like two years. Yeah, posting them my Space that I know.
Speaker 1: I saw some some growth my mice, my my Space
Speaker 1: account when I used hashtags. So yeah, God, that was me.
Speaker 1: I was the one clicking. I was like, finally somebody
Speaker 1: else's face. I gotta know. Well, man, I apreciate um.
Speaker 1: You have me out to your house here in Bozeman.
Speaker 1: It's nice. Um, it seems like you've got a nice,
Speaker 1: nice gig here and it was terrible. You don't I
Speaker 1: would like I think Bozeman it's snowed. It's for the record,
Speaker 1: it's snowed last night. Yeah, it's June, June. It's snowed
Speaker 1: last night. It's great. And there's bears everywhere. Dude, it's terrible.
Speaker 1: I mean it's thirteen grizzly bears. My trash can it was. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would never you know, you got Cody. There's like
Speaker 1: wearing a buffalo hide with a shotgun like it's it's
Speaker 1: real Western out. You don't stay in your homes, don't
Speaker 1: your kids, don't move to both your lives, don't come
Speaker 1: here please, um, thanks man and appreciate. Uh. We had
Speaker 1: a lovely dinner with your lovely fiance Fance like the
Speaker 1: word he's getting married like a short time, like a mom, mom.
Speaker 1: It's the way, my god and true Montana fashion in
Speaker 1: my backyard, backyard. I'll watch that for the bears. We
Speaker 1: I will say this to keep saying to end it,
Speaker 1: but we'll keep going. We're talking about and folks can
Speaker 1: tell us this will come out before the wedding. So
Speaker 1: if you guys think it's a good idea, let us
Speaker 1: know quickly. We were talking about whereas Yettie might sponsor
Speaker 1: the wedding and I will unabashedly make this happen and
Speaker 1: make Cody wear like a giant Yettie patch on the
Speaker 1: back of his wedding suit, or I will wear a
Speaker 1: Yeti onesie. And then we were talking about maybe, you know,
Speaker 1: not throw stone Glacier out there too heavy, but maybe
Speaker 1: Kelsey could be sponsored by Stone Glacier and be wearing
Speaker 1: a Stone Glacier pack just going down the first light dress.
Speaker 1: I'm like, baby, the shoes are really nice, but crispy.
Speaker 1: You can lower the lower the low topics. This goes
Speaker 1: back to, like the very beginning, we like talking about
Speaker 1: the selling your souls to the devil outward? Why not,
Speaker 1: like somebody's gotta pay for those pork shops, Like catering
Speaker 1: is expensive. So if everybody thinks it's a good idea
Speaker 1: for for Cody to get his wedding sponsored by various
Speaker 1: outdoor companies, let us know, because then we'll have to
Speaker 1: get a film. Crewe lets goes down. I'm okay with this,
Speaker 1: all right, check check back in July. We'll let you know. Alright,
Speaker 1: Thanks man, that's all. It's it episode number seventeen in
Speaker 1: the books. Thank you, Cody Rich grabbing me out to
Speaker 1: your beautiful home and Bozeman and for the great conversation
Speaker 1: and the whiskey. Next episode coming up. It's very exciting,
Speaker 1: not that Cody wasn't exciting. It's a great conversation. But
Speaker 1: the next episode is with none other and Cole Creamer.
Speaker 1: You may know Cold Cramer from codyak Alaska, may know
Speaker 1: Cold Cramer from our hunting trips to Nepal, which us
Speaker 1: poken about a lot on the podcast. Or you may
Speaker 1: know him as a sick athlete. But he is an
Speaker 1: interesting fellow. I'm glad to have him join me for
Speaker 1: episode number eighteen, so check us back next week. Until then,
Speaker 1: the Hunting clex dot com articles, videos, other podcasts. Guys
Speaker 1: like Steve Ronella, Brammy Warren, John Dudley, Shane Mahoney and
Speaker 1: many more check us out. We'll see you next ye