Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of The Mark Moss Show,
Speaker 1: where we talk about the intersection of politics, finance, and technology,
Speaker 1: which bitcoin is at that intersection. I'm talking about the
Speaker 1: decentralized revolution that is changing the world as we speak.
Speaker 1: And I'm coming to you from Miami South Beach, Miami
Speaker 1: for the Bitcoin Conference. Got about forty thou people descending
Speaker 1: on this city to talk about some weird magic internet
Speaker 1: money or something crazy like that. Right, And I'm joined
Speaker 1: by Mark jeff Dovic. Jeff Dovic he's been writing in
Speaker 1: a newsletter called The Crypto Capitalist, which I've been reading
Speaker 1: and I've really been enjoying it. And you can find
Speaker 1: him on Twitter at stunt Hope and Uh, Mark, thanks
Speaker 1: for joining me today. Hey, Mark, it's great to meet you,
Speaker 1: and I love your show, so it's a thrill to
Speaker 1: be on it. Great. Yeah, I was looking forward to
Speaker 1: this conversation as well. So, um, you know one thing that, uh,
Speaker 1: to understand bitcoin is difficult because it's so many things.
Speaker 1: And do you have to know disciplines and philosophy and
Speaker 1: game theory and motivation and monetary history and I mean politics,
Speaker 1: all these different things. Right, you seem to be pretty
Speaker 1: well versed in a lot of those things, which is
Speaker 1: probably why you're grasping it pretty well, right, But I
Speaker 1: love that. I what I would I really love about
Speaker 1: it is it allows us to bring our sovereignty back, right,
Speaker 1: to be able to control um our money and even
Speaker 1: more than that, right because I mean money is changing
Speaker 1: as we speak. But um, I was before we started recording,
Speaker 1: I was making a comment my unpopular opinion that not
Speaker 1: everything needs to be decentralized. Sorry for all your de
Speaker 1: fibros out there. Um, Like, I recently bought an investment
Speaker 1: property in Texas and I got a loan. I got
Speaker 1: a loan, I locked in thirty year money at three
Speaker 1: percent interest. Pretty good deal for me. I needed a
Speaker 1: centralized entity to make sure that my credit was different
Speaker 1: than your credit and give me a better rate than
Speaker 1: your rate or something like that. And like somebody needed
Speaker 1: to make that decision. It didn't need to be decentralized.
Speaker 1: And I didn't want to have to overcollateralize that property
Speaker 1: by a h I wanted to actually borrow eighty or
Speaker 1: ninety percent of it, right. Um, So that's kind of
Speaker 1: an opinion. So not everything needs to be decentralized. Um,
Speaker 1: the money needs to be decentralized at least that's what
Speaker 1: I think. Um. But but does the Internet That's one
Speaker 1: thing I want to talk to you about today. Does
Speaker 1: the Internet to meet need to be decentralized? Um? And
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about the applications being built on the Internet.
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on that? Well, the Internet as
Speaker 1: we know it was designed to be a decentralized technology. Uh,
Speaker 1: stack of protocols, right, The Internet stack is seven layers
Speaker 1: going from the application layer down to the you know,
Speaker 1: transport layer and uh, I actually can't remember all seven
Speaker 1: of them off the top of my head. But ideal
Speaker 1: in the naming layer, right, because my main company, Easy
Speaker 1: d n S is like a domain name DNS company.
Speaker 1: So if we started the top and work down, you
Speaker 1: have like an I s P. You're in a service provider.
Speaker 1: And then does the DNS sit on the next layer
Speaker 1: below that? Well, so at the very top you've got
Speaker 1: applications like Twitter and Facebook and the applications and the
Speaker 1: webs Right, your I s P is going to sit
Speaker 1: further down the stack because they're really just moving packets around, right,
Speaker 1: And that's the company that you sign up with, that's
Speaker 1: your cox cable or what podcast and they're just giving
Speaker 1: you the raw pipe and uh. And then between actually
Speaker 1: that layer and the application layers, you have this this
Speaker 1: naming layer where you don't want to memorize IP addresses
Speaker 1: would be like akin to memorizing Bitcoin addresses. You can't
Speaker 1: really do it. So you need this this translation mechanism
Speaker 1: to go back and forth between IP addresses and human
Speaker 1: memorable labels. And that is the DNS system Domain Name system,
Speaker 1: and that is you know, sort of decentralized, but not
Speaker 1: really because it's an inverted tree hierarchy, right you hear.
Speaker 1: You have like one Mark Moss dot com. There's an
Speaker 1: implicit dot at the end of that that no one
Speaker 1: you don't really have to write, but that dot is
Speaker 1: the root of the Internet naming system dot com. Nope,
Speaker 1: the dot after the dot com. But nobody really writes
Speaker 1: it because it's just a convention, Like all the machines
Speaker 1: know it's there, so you don't have to put the
Speaker 1: dot after the dot com. But at the top of
Speaker 1: this tree, this inverted tree, there's the dot, and then
Speaker 1: under that dot is calm and net and organ and
Speaker 1: then these these um newer ones like website and support
Speaker 1: and w TF and media and all of them, and
Speaker 1: then underneath those, like every dot is another layer in
Speaker 1: the tree, right, so underneath Calm is one Mark Moss
Speaker 1: and then if you've got www or f t P
Speaker 1: or mail, then that's underneath. So you have this inverted
Speaker 1: tree hierarchy. So it's really at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: it's kind of centralized because at every level of that tree.
Speaker 1: I don't want to get too technical, but you know
Speaker 1: what you call a zone cut. You can have a
Speaker 1: different set of name servers that are servicing that level,
Speaker 1: So you can have these nick like you could have
Speaker 1: completely different entity handling one you know, one sub domain
Speaker 1: under your domain, but everyone above you in the tree
Speaker 1: can really exert influence on you all the way down.
Speaker 1: So when someone tries to d platform a website, for example,
Speaker 1: they can go to your I s P. They can
Speaker 1: go to your web host. They can even go to
Speaker 1: the registry and say take it out of the dot com.
Speaker 1: So the the host would be where my website is hosted,
Speaker 1: so Amazon Web Servers or something like that, that's the host,
Speaker 1: so they could attack there, and then we have the
Speaker 1: I s P, which is my Comcast or whatever, and
Speaker 1: they could say, hey, don't route traffic to that i
Speaker 1: P and then we use VPNs to get around that
Speaker 1: can happen. Yeah, um, and then you would have then
Speaker 1: the name server. I guess that's what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: You can go to either the name server operators and
Speaker 1: say stop resolving this name, or you can go to
Speaker 1: the registry operator like a VERI sign or an aphilius
Speaker 1: and say take this name right out of the zone.
Speaker 1: So that means when somebody wants to go to my website,
Speaker 1: um on one Mark moss um, so they type that
Speaker 1: in and then the service then matches that and then
Speaker 1: routes it to the the IP address. The IP address
Speaker 1: if you've ever set up a router at your house,
Speaker 1: you know what that is. But it's like a one
Speaker 1: six eight dot one, dot one, do whatever, something like that.
Speaker 1: So it would it would take my name and then
Speaker 1: routed to that IP address. But if there's something that
Speaker 1: gets in the in the middle of that that says
Speaker 1: don't do that translation or there's nothing to look up
Speaker 1: because of the zones the name has been pulled from
Speaker 1: the zone, then you don't get there, right. So those
Speaker 1: are some of the main attack vectors now in in China.
Speaker 1: What's the Great Firewall of China. Um, you know, there's
Speaker 1: no Google, no Facebook, no no Netflix, none of that.
Speaker 1: But they still get around the Great Firewall of China,
Speaker 1: right just using VPNs mostly yea. So it's mostly being
Speaker 1: blocked at the I s P level there, the Internet
Speaker 1: service provider they even So there's it's like an escalating
Speaker 1: arms race because VPN providers will then get blocked, right
Speaker 1: because the State apparatus is monitoring for new VPN services
Speaker 1: and they monitor the the the address tables and that
Speaker 1: sort of thing. So it's a constant back and forth. Okay,
Speaker 1: so but most people use VPNs to get around the
Speaker 1: I s P. So that seems to be the main
Speaker 1: source of of of censorship, I guess. And then the
Speaker 1: next would be the name. Now on the name, they
Speaker 1: could not allow the name to route properly. But if
Speaker 1: someone typed in my IP address directly, couldn't they still
Speaker 1: get there? They could? Yeah, as long as the host
Speaker 1: didn't take it down. Yeah, that's what happened with wiki
Speaker 1: leaks back in two thousand ten. And uh, you know
Speaker 1: that was the whole, the whole story that we got
Speaker 1: embroiled in. But then they enough people knew the IP
Speaker 1: addresses that they could still get to the website. So
Speaker 1: to answer your original question, d n S is somewhat decentralized,
Speaker 1: but there still is this like inverted tree centralized hierarchy
Speaker 1: to it um, it's more I consider it more like
Speaker 1: a federation then, like it's a federated hierarchy, not a
Speaker 1: top down hierarchy. But I always used to say, you know,
Speaker 1: when people would get up in arms about something that
Speaker 1: happened at the DNS level and they'd say, we need
Speaker 1: a decentralized d n S, I would always chirp in
Speaker 1: from on high saying, you know, you can't do it
Speaker 1: because it's an inverted tree hierarchy and there's you can't
Speaker 1: d P two P DNS is impossible. And then Bitcoin
Speaker 1: came along and it proved me wrong because then I realized, oh,
Speaker 1: you know what, you don't have to have an inverted
Speaker 1: tree hierarchy. You can use a decentralized ledger as the route,
Speaker 1: and then you can pin things onto that decentralized ledger
Speaker 1: and you would avoid name collisions. And so name coin
Speaker 1: was an original like a very early UH fork of
Speaker 1: Bitcoin that was experimenting that with that with the dot
Speaker 1: bit t l D right. I don't know if they're
Speaker 1: still going. There's been subsequent developments. There's Etherium Name Service
Speaker 1: e n S, there's a handshake h n S unstoppable.
Speaker 1: No one's done it right to bitcoin yet, but I
Speaker 1: think I think there's a case for it. I think
Speaker 1: it can happen. Yeah, we're talking about bitcoin. You listen
Speaker 1: to the Mark Mo Show. I'm sitting down with Mark Jefftovic.
Speaker 1: We will be back in just a minute. Do not
Speaker 1: go away, all right, welcome back. You are listening to
Speaker 1: the Mark Mo Show. We're talking about the decentralized revolution
Speaker 1: that the world is going through right now. Of course,
Speaker 1: bitcoin is spearheading that. I'm coming to you from Miami
Speaker 1: Beach where I'm actually here for the Bitcoin conference, and
Speaker 1: uh I'm going to be working the Bitcoin News desk.
Speaker 1: I'm sitting down with Mark Jetovic. Now, before we took
Speaker 1: the break, Mark, we were talking about this kind of
Speaker 1: decentralized stack, and you're starting to get to the d
Speaker 1: n S and I had asked you the d NS.
Speaker 1: For those that are listening to do't understand, that's the
Speaker 1: name domain name server service service service. So basically when
Speaker 1: you type in my website name Mike one Mark Moss,
Speaker 1: it will then route you to the IP address. And
Speaker 1: I asked, if you just have the IP address, then
Speaker 1: you said yes, that would still work. So that's kind
Speaker 1: of how what happened with wiki leaks. You're giving that example.
Speaker 1: I think that's kind of where we cut off. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and the idea that I've been fooling with in the
Speaker 1: back of my mind for a while now, and I
Speaker 1: kind of let it go, and lately I've been bringing
Speaker 1: it back is you could use a decentralized ledger as
Speaker 1: kind of like a side chain to the actual legacy
Speaker 1: d n S system, so rather than UM, rather than UM.
Speaker 1: A lot of these decentralized DNS projects are setting up
Speaker 1: new top level domains. You've got dot ef, You've got
Speaker 1: dot crypto and dot n f T and all of
Speaker 1: these things. UM. I'm watching those innovations and I'm interested
Speaker 1: in them, but I don't know what's going to happen.
Speaker 1: If there's going to be another expansion in sort of
Speaker 1: the legacy d n S world that's run by I
Speaker 1: can this corporation out of California. What happens if someone
Speaker 1: tries to go for dot crypto, there is it going
Speaker 1: to clash with a decentralized dot crypto. But I have
Speaker 1: an idea that I've been sort of noodling with in
Speaker 1: my mind where you use a decentralized blockchain and you
Speaker 1: use it to extend existing domain names. So let's say
Speaker 1: one Mark Moss dot com gets d platformed because um,
Speaker 1: you've said the wrong thing, you committed a thought crime,
Speaker 1: or even you forget you forgot to renew your your
Speaker 1: bill with your registrar. If if there are enough like
Speaker 1: almost like Web three enabled devices out there, I just
Speaker 1: use that as a catch phrase for like meta mask
Speaker 1: and these things built in your browser that's sort of
Speaker 1: new to look at a certain well, I can't see
Speaker 1: Mark Moss dot com or one Mark Moss dot com
Speaker 1: in the legacy t LD, but is it is there
Speaker 1: a record for it on this bitcoin block chain or
Speaker 1: this whatever name blockchain and then just kind of pick
Speaker 1: it up from there and have the same sort of
Speaker 1: root arounding it rooting around the legacy um inverted tree
Speaker 1: and picking it up off the blockchain. That could be
Speaker 1: something pretty interesting. Yeah, So you just need something else
Speaker 1: that can point to it, that can re that can
Speaker 1: kind of work as like a routing system. Um. You
Speaker 1: mentioned web three. Um, and if we think about like
Speaker 1: a web three or if we think about like n
Speaker 1: f T S, which I don't talk a lot about
Speaker 1: n f T s, but n f T S you
Speaker 1: basically have UM something pointing to a record like a
Speaker 1: hash in a in a chain. So is that kind
Speaker 1: of something like that where it kind of points it
Speaker 1: and it can kind of redirect or something. I think
Speaker 1: domain names are the original n f T So when
Speaker 1: I look at squiggly lines there, you know, psychedelic squares,
Speaker 1: I don't understand that like I do sort of. I'm
Speaker 1: sort of like the knuckle dragger that says it's a JPEG,
Speaker 1: which is a big deal. But when I look at
Speaker 1: a domain name, like every domain name is a unique
Speaker 1: data structure unto itself. It's pointing different IP addresses that
Speaker 1: has different layers, and they can be they can be
Speaker 1: like a labyrinth, they can be very elaborate and complex things.
Speaker 1: One single domain they're all running on the same protocol,
Speaker 1: every single one of them is different. And I look
Speaker 1: at that and I say, that's an n f T.
Speaker 1: And so when I look at what n f T
Speaker 1: s aspire to be like, forget the squiggly lines, look
Speaker 1: at just um rights management, look at even single sign
Speaker 1: on capabilities, look at just transmitting data in a decentralized way.
Speaker 1: About a uniform protocol that where each instance of it
Speaker 1: is unique. Then I sort of look at that and
Speaker 1: think n f T s could be like when you
Speaker 1: look at it as a domain name, that could be
Speaker 1: a very very powerful thing. That's sort of what I
Speaker 1: was getting at when I was trying to describe that.
Speaker 1: Look aside to a side chain to get your your
Speaker 1: data from. Yeah, and n f T just stands for
Speaker 1: a non fungible token, so obviously it can pretty much
Speaker 1: most things in the world. They're non fungible, right, They're
Speaker 1: not one to one so um, it's very broad generalization.
Speaker 1: But getting back to them, not everything needs to be decentralized,
Speaker 1: and so I guess, like I said, my thought process
Speaker 1: was like, the money needs to be decentralized. But the
Speaker 1: Internet is already somewhat centralized decentralized. So obviously Twitter, we're
Speaker 1: all on Twitter and we're very it's very centralized, and
Speaker 1: of course they can and can't censor that if they want, YouTube, etcetera.
Speaker 1: But is the Internet itself decentralized enough that we could
Speaker 1: use it. Yeah, I think it is. I mean, even
Speaker 1: when you look at the name servers that operate just
Speaker 1: the root t l D, you think, well, that's a
Speaker 1: single point of failure. Well no, it's actually served by
Speaker 1: thirteen name servers. So you say, okay, well that's decentralized,
Speaker 1: but that's still only thirteen. Well, each thirteen of those
Speaker 1: name servers is really just a name server instance themselves.
Speaker 1: They can be multiple name servers. There's a protocol in
Speaker 1: DNS I won't borry you with. It's called any cast.
Speaker 1: It's basically multiple servers around the world answer to the
Speaker 1: same IP address. So each one of those thirteen route
Speaker 1: name servers are themselves in any cast constellations. So at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, that dot root zone isn't
Speaker 1: served by thirteen name servers. It's served by thousands of
Speaker 1: name servers. And so you do have like you have
Speaker 1: that structure, but it's still decentralized enough. And that's why
Speaker 1: I used the phrase federation earlier on, because you have
Speaker 1: all these disparent entities. Those name servers are run by
Speaker 1: everyone from the the U S Military to IBM to
Speaker 1: nonprofit organizations and so they're all just sort of running
Speaker 1: miss same p It's it's kind of similar to bitcoin mining. Okay.
Speaker 1: I think about one of the first examples that stands
Speaker 1: out to me of this you know day and age
Speaker 1: that we're in with censorship was when Alex Jones got
Speaker 1: de platformed. Right, he just got wiped off the face
Speaker 1: in concerts. So like all the platforms kind of came
Speaker 1: together and at every single account that he had. Um,
Speaker 1: but they don't stopped him. His website is still up,
Speaker 1: He's still getting millions of views on every show that
Speaker 1: he does. Then he just broadcasting from his own So
Speaker 1: like even as hard as he was d platformed, Um,
Speaker 1: sure you can't find him on YouTube or you can't
Speaker 1: find him on Google, but he's still they're kind of
Speaker 1: a thing. Yeah, D platforming doesn't work D platforming for
Speaker 1: the most part. Um, you may be able to take
Speaker 1: out a single instance of a person in a D platforming,
Speaker 1: but a lot of times that person can benefit from
Speaker 1: D platforming or come back stronger. I mean that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you've got the book right there. I just handed to
Speaker 1: or audio only, but you know chapter four of that
Speaker 1: book is does D platforming even work. In the conclusion
Speaker 1: I came to was it doesn't. So Mark is Uh.
Speaker 1: I'm joined by Mark Jeff Dovic and I'm Mark Moss.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mark Moss Show. Um, and Mark
Speaker 1: just handed me a book called Unassailable and it says
Speaker 1: protect yourself from d platform attacks can soil culture and
Speaker 1: other online disasters, which is pretty important because in today's
Speaker 1: day and age, we're in a digital age. You know.
Speaker 1: I thought about like Facebook ads, Like if you run
Speaker 1: paid Facebook ads, which I've done quite a bit of
Speaker 1: in the past. Um, it's so hard. I mean, they
Speaker 1: banned your account for everything. And if you have an
Speaker 1: online business and you can't advertise online, you're effectively out
Speaker 1: of business and they can just shut you down. So
Speaker 1: it's something I think about a lot. I want to
Speaker 1: dig more into this actual book, and let's talk about
Speaker 1: protecting yourself from d platform attacks because honestly, that's something
Speaker 1: I really worry about. That's something I really worry about,
Speaker 1: So I'd love to hear more about that. Um, you're
Speaker 1: listening to the Mark Moa Show. We're talking about the
Speaker 1: decentralized revolution that's being led by bitcoin. Um, we're talking
Speaker 1: about how the world is changing from that. I'm at
Speaker 1: the Bitcoin Conference in Miami recording with Mark Jeff Dvic
Speaker 1: and Uh, we're gonna talk more about protecting yourself from
Speaker 1: d platform attacks, cancel culture, and other online disasters when
Speaker 1: we get back, So don't go away, all right, Welcome back.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mark Moa Show. We are talking
Speaker 1: about bitcoin and the decentralized revolution in the way it
Speaker 1: is changing the world. UM joined today with by Mark
Speaker 1: Jeff Tovic. We are in Miami for the Bitcoin Conference,
Speaker 1: and we're talking about I made the unpopular opinion to
Speaker 1: some people last night at a party that not everything
Speaker 1: needs to be decentralized, the money needs to be decentralized,
Speaker 1: and we're talking about the need. Does the Internet need
Speaker 1: to be decentralized or is it? And so that's what
Speaker 1: we've been talking about. Before the break and before we
Speaker 1: took off, Mark, we talked about this book, this Unassailable
Speaker 1: that you just wrote, UM, and it says protect yourself
Speaker 1: from d platform attacks. So we just talked about Alex Jones.
Speaker 1: He was d platformed and it's something that I think
Speaker 1: a lot about because my you know, if they shut
Speaker 1: down my YouTube channel, I mean man, that's that's gonna
Speaker 1: be devastating for me. And uh, you know, if if
Speaker 1: I was d platformed, it would be devastating. So how
Speaker 1: do we protect ourselves from platform d platform attacks? So
Speaker 1: one of the things you have to pay attention to,
Speaker 1: I mean, the subtext to this today's conversation is is
Speaker 1: the Internet decentralized. The protocols are decentralized. The protocols describe
Speaker 1: a way to to operate in a decentralized fashion. The
Speaker 1: platforms are centralized. So we're in this world where I
Speaker 1: think the big defining tension, you know, you call it
Speaker 1: the decentralized revolution. It's between centralization decentralization over here in
Speaker 1: the Internet spaces, between protocols and platforms. Right, email is
Speaker 1: a protocol. The most important thing you can do is
Speaker 1: capture the email address of all of your users, your customers,
Speaker 1: your followers. Get that email address when you're on Twitter,
Speaker 1: when you're on YouTube. Those people aren't your customers, they're
Speaker 1: not your followers, they're not your subscribers. Their YouTube's and
Speaker 1: they let you have access to them provided your plane
Speaker 1: by their rules. We call it a market, and we
Speaker 1: say it's the list you own versus the list you rent, right, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and there's there's various different guys is for that. It's
Speaker 1: you know, James tramp Co calls it own the race course.
Speaker 1: I always loved that phrase, and so um you want
Speaker 1: to use those platforms like Twitter and YouTube and Facebook
Speaker 1: almost as a lead gen right. The number one goal
Speaker 1: for every follower you get on those platforms get them
Speaker 1: back to your website. Get their email address, right, That's
Speaker 1: that's number one. Because anybody can stand up an email
Speaker 1: server anywhere in the world, provided your following certain best practices,
Speaker 1: you can send email to your subscribers as long as
Speaker 1: you're not using Gmail, because Gmail is a centralized application
Speaker 1: of it as a platform. The platform mail Chimp is
Speaker 1: a platform. Mail Chimp is a platform that specializes you
Speaker 1: sending your list, but they're going to monitor your content
Speaker 1: and if you send them the wrong content, they're going
Speaker 1: to shut you down. I got kicked off a mail
Speaker 1: chump early on when I was writing my cryptocurrency research newsletter.
Speaker 1: I was using mail Chump and they shut me down.
Speaker 1: They saw I was using words crypto or whatever, and
Speaker 1: they kicking off. Clavio did the same for us on
Speaker 1: an automated and We had like a multi thousand dollars
Speaker 1: spend per month with them over on easy d n
Speaker 1: us where we write our access is easy Weekly Technology Digest.
Speaker 1: We're a technology company. How do you write about technology
Speaker 1: without saying the word bitcoin in it? Right, So they
Speaker 1: shut us down automatically. So we move to a system
Speaker 1: called maudic m A U T I C. That's not
Speaker 1: a plug, that's an open source platform. Right. You can
Speaker 1: download it for free. You set it up on a
Speaker 1: commodity VPS anywhere in the world, and it's like a
Speaker 1: mail chimp or in a Weber on your own server.
Speaker 1: And so that's that's what this book advocates. It's like,
Speaker 1: you take as much control over every aspect of your operations,
Speaker 1: and you put it on a resource that is under
Speaker 1: your own domain name, and you give some specifics like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's mentioned there in the book, so email being one
Speaker 1: of them. So you can take control of your email
Speaker 1: that's the list you own, not that you rent. And
Speaker 1: then you can actually have your own uh server to
Speaker 1: send out your own emails, as opposed to a platform
Speaker 1: like Gmail that could censor you. Yeah, exactly, and that
Speaker 1: and so I mean I talk, I mean that book
Speaker 1: actually isn't new that came out a couple of years ago.
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about doing a revision for it because every
Speaker 1: at the time I wrote the book, I thought I've
Speaker 1: missed the boat, I've hit Pete cancel culture, and it's
Speaker 1: all going to do. Yeah. Right, I kind of missed
Speaker 1: that call. And uh so now I think I've got
Speaker 1: to update it. Especially I've got to I've got a
Speaker 1: beef out this section on financial decentralization and um, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: PayPal stripe. All of those guys are centralized, especially with
Speaker 1: what happened with the credit card companies when they decide
Speaker 1: that your persona non grata. And again, like the Alex
Speaker 1: Jones thing, they seem to act in concert. When you
Speaker 1: come under the gun, you come under everyone's gun at
Speaker 1: the same time. Yeah. Yesterday, Um, I was at there's
Speaker 1: a bank Bitcoin venture fund, Trammel Venture Partners tv P.
Speaker 1: I'm an I'm an advisor for the fund UM and
Speaker 1: they had a whole investor day yesterday. So I was
Speaker 1: there all day and they had several of the companies
Speaker 1: that are in the fund that they're invested in to
Speaker 1: come and talk. One of them is called Impervious. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you've heard of that, and they've built they they said, hey, look,
Speaker 1: we were thinking about buld our own operating system, but
Speaker 1: we realized that about eight percent of the time is
Speaker 1: spent in the browser, so we're just gonna make our
Speaker 1: own browser. And they made their own browser and then
Speaker 1: built into the browser it has Zoom but without Zoom
Speaker 1: and so directly from the browser, I can click on
Speaker 1: Zoom and you and I could do a video conference.
Speaker 1: But it's going peer to peer. Yeah, it's probably using
Speaker 1: Jetsy or something like that as well, So it's like
Speaker 1: a decentralized video conferencing protocol. Yeah, and but but it
Speaker 1: goes directly peer to peer as opposed to going through
Speaker 1: any servers or whatever. And then they have so they
Speaker 1: have the Zoom and then they have messagings. Then we
Speaker 1: can communicate peer to peer, and then they have Google Docs.
Speaker 1: But without Google, it's just docs. But that we can
Speaker 1: collab on and stuff. There's there's every So people just
Speaker 1: don't know these things exist. And so in my main business,
Speaker 1: and these are the things that the Googles of the world,
Speaker 1: the platforms have used, and people just didn't realize that
Speaker 1: that we could just use it without them, right, you
Speaker 1: can cut out the middleman, right, the centralizer. And so
Speaker 1: like at easy d n S, we don't use Slack
Speaker 1: because Slack is centralized. We use a system called matter
Speaker 1: most again, so it's open source, you download it, you
Speaker 1: put it on your own server, right, and and so
Speaker 1: you're not going through this centralized system. Um, there's open
Speaker 1: office and liber Office instead of Microsoft Office. There's like
Speaker 1: I mentioned, jets instead of Zoom. It's all of this
Speaker 1: stuff is happening, and there's it's accelerating. So you mentioned
Speaker 1: I think we were talking about the in China and
Speaker 1: the China the China file wall, and it's like this
Speaker 1: game is like almost like a cat and mouse game.
Speaker 1: So like, um, the state, if you will, you know,
Speaker 1: puts measures in to try to control the restrict things,
Speaker 1: and then entrepreneurs kind of move to kind of push
Speaker 1: back on that. Is that kind of how you see
Speaker 1: that working? Yeah, pretty much. Um, there's a never ending
Speaker 1: first in China, I think, to get outside information and
Speaker 1: as long as that demand is there, people are going
Speaker 1: to be coming along to provide mechanisms to get around it.
Speaker 1: But isn't I guess the kind of the point that
Speaker 1: I've been asking and it seems like the answer is that, um,
Speaker 1: we don't necessarily to invent new things. The Internet already
Speaker 1: allows for those things. We just have to realize that
Speaker 1: we can actually access to things without the centralized platforms.
Speaker 1: And so now we're just having to kind of relearn
Speaker 1: how to use some of the tools that are already there.
Speaker 1: You just have to, um, you just have to find it.
Speaker 1: You have to just do the research and read up
Speaker 1: on it and get outside these silos of mainstream you know,
Speaker 1: narrative and information, and then you're going to find out
Speaker 1: that there's a whole universe out there. I mean, in
Speaker 1: a in a way, the cryptocurrency revolution is just the
Speaker 1: tip of the iceberg. This is happening everywhere. It is
Speaker 1: a revolution. Yeah, yeah, And you know it's a it's
Speaker 1: a it's a constant trade off between convenience and security
Speaker 1: or convenience, you know, whatever it is. And like, um,
Speaker 1: you know, I think we all understand how bad this
Speaker 1: iPhone is in my pocket to carry around, but I'm
Speaker 1: still waiting for my librum to come in. I ordered
Speaker 1: him like three years ago. But the thing is, though,
Speaker 1: is like I remember as a kid, like watching the
Speaker 1: Jetsons and like I want a robot clean to my house.
Speaker 1: I want to like, we'll just speak to a robot
Speaker 1: of my house. I have have to do everything, So I
Speaker 1: want the technology, but I don't want to weaponized against me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean the things like the Alexa and the Hey
Speaker 1: Google and all that and and you know, all my
Speaker 1: normy friends and family use it and swear by it,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, get that crop out of my house.
Speaker 1: Like there's I would love. I would just absolutely love
Speaker 1: to be able to say, hey, you know, Siri, like
Speaker 1: you know, make me a sandwich and uh and find
Speaker 1: out what's going on. But it's does it have to
Speaker 1: go back to Amazon, the quarters, the whole point and
Speaker 1: come out It doesn't have to. I mean, there's got
Speaker 1: to be a way to decentralize that, and I'm sure
Speaker 1: someone's going to do it at some point. I've I've
Speaker 1: asked some friends that set that those stuff up. They say,
Speaker 1: there are some systems you can pay for that do
Speaker 1: similar things, but they don't. But you pay a lot
Speaker 1: of money for him, because if you don't pay for
Speaker 1: the product, that you are the product. Right you're listening
Speaker 1: to the Mark Mo Show. We're talking about bitcoin and
Speaker 1: the decentralized Revolution. We're talking specifically, I'm sitting down with
Speaker 1: Mark Jeff Jeff Dovic UM talking about his book Unassailable,
Speaker 1: how to Protect yourself from d platform attacks, which is
Speaker 1: something that I'm concerned with. Bitcoin, the decentralized revolution the
Speaker 1: Internet is allowing us to do just that. UM. Coming
Speaker 1: to you from Bitcoino Conference. I'm gonna be right back
Speaker 1: with Mark with a little bit more in a second,
Speaker 1: So don't go away, all right, Welcome back. You're listening
Speaker 1: to the Mark mo Show. We're talking about Bitcoin, the
Speaker 1: decentralized Revolution, and how it's changing the world as we speak.
Speaker 1: You know, one of the big things about decentralization is
Speaker 1: removing the power, the centralized power that controls us, so
Speaker 1: we can have more power and freedom into our own
Speaker 1: sovereign lives. And bitcoin is enabling that. UM. Bitcoin is
Speaker 1: enabling that for the money, which, as I like to
Speaker 1: always make the case that there is no freedom without
Speaker 1: freedom of payments. UM. But you know, I'm joined by
Speaker 1: Mark Jeff Toovic we're here talking in Miami for the
Speaker 1: Bitcoin Conference. UM. So without the freedom to payment, I
Speaker 1: have I have no freedom. Uh. Specifically in the American
Speaker 1: Constitution we're guaranteed freedom of speech, but today's day and age,
Speaker 1: I need a computer or phone really to get speech.
Speaker 1: I mean, I have to print a pamphlet or I
Speaker 1: have to build a website, and so something I have
Speaker 1: to I can talk into the wind, I suppose, but
Speaker 1: that's not gonna do much good, right, and so I
Speaker 1: need that freedom of payment. Um. And so then we've
Speaker 1: been talking about the Internet, which is that main kind
Speaker 1: of medium of communication I suppose, which is basically open
Speaker 1: and free, but it's been co opted by the central entities,
Speaker 1: and so we're talking about ways to get around that.
Speaker 1: He wrote a book called Unassailable How to Protect Yourself
Speaker 1: from d Platform Attacks. UM. In the book, you talk
Speaker 1: about how cancel culture has been happening through the ages.
Speaker 1: So is this are you Are you trying to say
Speaker 1: this is not something new that we're dealing with. It
Speaker 1: isn't new. I mean there's always there's always a certain
Speaker 1: kind of mindset that thinks they have the right to
Speaker 1: tell other people how to live. Right. Why why it's
Speaker 1: wrong with those people? I know? I mean because I
Speaker 1: always think, when I really thought about it, I thought,
Speaker 1: at the root component of all this, all disagreements about anything.
Speaker 1: Are really a difference in priorities? Right? If you and
Speaker 1: I disagree about something, that means you're prioritizing something differently
Speaker 1: than I'm prioritizing something else. So when you realize that,
Speaker 1: how can anyone possibly think with a clear conscience that
Speaker 1: they have the right to set somebody else's priorities right?
Speaker 1: But that's what cancel culture, cancel hullics, you know, cancel
Speaker 1: Karen's want to do. They want to set your priorities right.
Speaker 1: And so what's unique today, though, is that UM, in
Speaker 1: this era of high tech, you know, UM amplification. You
Speaker 1: have the power to consolidate and to amplify and to
Speaker 1: leaver yourself so you can get just the most you know,
Speaker 1: narcissistic salopsis. You know, busy buddy, give them a blue
Speaker 1: check on Twitter, a couple of million followers, you know,
Speaker 1: and suddenly they what date, what goes on in their
Speaker 1: mind gets amplified a million times and suddenly someone's losing
Speaker 1: a job, someone's getting dropped from some some publications, some
Speaker 1: book deals, getting killed, and it just it just gets
Speaker 1: levered up that way. Yeah, so it's nothing new, I
Speaker 1: you know, we see it on every level of society. Right,
Speaker 1: So it's like, uh, if you have a homeowners association,
Speaker 1: they want to get on the homeowner Socius board or
Speaker 1: teachers association or whatever. Even today, I mean it's gotten crazy,
Speaker 1: um flying and like the flight attendants used to be
Speaker 1: there for like customer service to make sure that your
Speaker 1: flight was going okay, and now it's like now that
Speaker 1: they've learned, they have the power to kick people off
Speaker 1: the plane. You know, it's like you do what I say,
Speaker 1: or I'll kick you off. And it's like wait a minute,
Speaker 1: Like this this whole relationship change. So um, yeah, a
Speaker 1: little bit of power goes a long way. And so um,
Speaker 1: I guess it's a culture of people not wanting to
Speaker 1: to take care of themselves. They want to take care
Speaker 1: of you. Yeah, that's exactly it. I mean, it really
Speaker 1: comes down to you either think you can tell other
Speaker 1: people what to do or you're worried about you know,
Speaker 1: it's hard enough to look after your own life. And
Speaker 1: I don't mean this from every man for himself dog
Speaker 1: eat dog perspective. I mean this from cultivating yourself. Improving
Speaker 1: yourself every day is a full time job and should be,
Speaker 1: and it's a full people should be spending a full
Speaker 1: job on it. Yeah, and none of us have ever
Speaker 1: complete that job. We have our hands full just taking
Speaker 1: care of ourselves and making ourselves the best people we
Speaker 1: can be. And if everyone does that, then you won't
Speaker 1: have to tell everybody around you, you know, what you
Speaker 1: think they should do to become a better person. You
Speaker 1: really have no clue. Well, and we've certainly seen, you know,
Speaker 1: back to the back to the Karen thing and whatever.
Speaker 1: We've certainly seen the leaders today they just feel like
Speaker 1: they just know better and you just you're just not
Speaker 1: smart enough to understand the issues. They come from this
Speaker 1: moral high per of well, look, this is for your
Speaker 1: own good because you don't understand it, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we've also seen we were talking before we were recording,
Speaker 1: We're talking about democracy, and I was talking how I
Speaker 1: see it as a tyranny of the minority by the majority. Well,
Speaker 1: what I've seen in your country, Canada, from your democratic leaders,
Speaker 1: if we'll call them that, right, the Trudeau's Party, but
Speaker 1: even in the United States as well. Um, they're saying
Speaker 1: it's these people are threatening our democracy. So because they
Speaker 1: want something that we don't want, it's a threat to
Speaker 1: our democracy. In the United States, it's getting paired it
Speaker 1: all around democracy democracy, um, and and the same in Canada.
Speaker 1: So it's like, this is what we want. The people
Speaker 1: are saying they want something different, but they're the threat
Speaker 1: to the democracy. But it's like, wouldn't that be the democracy? Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: and um it's um. There's another phrase that hasn't caught
Speaker 1: on quite the same, but Claus Schwab loves it. It's
Speaker 1: called subsidiary, right, and and he it dresses up in
Speaker 1: a nice term. It means like decisions should be made
Speaker 1: as close to the local level as possible. So it
Speaker 1: sort of almost sounds like, hey, we all get to
Speaker 1: decide things for ourselves. But when you read between the lines,
Speaker 1: what it really means is that we the elites, the
Speaker 1: people from on what sorry, the elites, the people from
Speaker 1: on high, we get to set the rules and subsidiarity
Speaker 1: means you get to follow them anyway you want. And
Speaker 1: democracy is like almost a synonym of that. It just means, um,
Speaker 1: democracy is what the elites want, and anything that people
Speaker 1: want to do for themselves that is against what the
Speaker 1: elites want is by definition anti democratic. Yeah. So I
Speaker 1: love that idea though, of decisions being made on a
Speaker 1: local level, which is back to we were talking about
Speaker 1: again before recording and how the United States isn't the democracy,
Speaker 1: it's a republic. So we have this representative government and
Speaker 1: that way you can have whatever is best for those
Speaker 1: local people kind of making the decisions. One problem is
Speaker 1: that in the United States, UM, as the population has
Speaker 1: completely exploded, we didn't add more representatives. So we've even
Speaker 1: centralized that right where you used to have small groups
Speaker 1: of people represented, and now we have giant groups of
Speaker 1: people who represented. And I think you know, like in
Speaker 1: a homeowners association, I use that example a lot and
Speaker 1: homeowners association. UM, it is kind of a democracy. We
Speaker 1: vote on it. Now we do elect the board. We
Speaker 1: vote for a board, and then they kind of run it.
Speaker 1: But it's a it's a democracy. The one difference though,
Speaker 1: everyone in the homeowners association pays for owns a house
Speaker 1: and they're paying that so their skin in the game.
Speaker 1: But it's also done on a very small scale. Um.
Speaker 1: I lived in a gated neighborhood and we didn't like it,
Speaker 1: and now we moved to a non gated neighborhood and
Speaker 1: now it's not as nice. The streets aren't as nice
Speaker 1: people don't keep their homes up as nice. I don't
Speaker 1: have a tennis, tennis court and pool anymore, but I
Speaker 1: don't have people telling me what to do either, and
Speaker 1: so I could make that trade off. The problem is
Speaker 1: when you take away that local decision making where I
Speaker 1: could just do that, and now everything is federal and
Speaker 1: now I have no choice. We're kind of stuck with that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, the ability to vote with your feet is
Speaker 1: you know, the last salvation and you know bitcoin is
Speaker 1: the great opt out in my mind, is that's how
Speaker 1: you opt out of these other rules. And to be clear,
Speaker 1: like the definition of the subsidiarity is a good concept,
Speaker 1: but it's been co opted by you know, people like
Speaker 1: the Davos Crew who say, um, you know, it just
Speaker 1: means that we've already decided the big picture stuff, so
Speaker 1: you can you can fight climate change anyway you want,
Speaker 1: except by saying, well, I don't think that there's a
Speaker 1: emergency that's not one of the options that's already been decided. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: It's it's scary. You know, we're starting to see where
Speaker 1: they're saying, you know, doctors that speak against the consensus
Speaker 1: or science, they even said, scientists that speak against the consensus,
Speaker 1: and it's like all progress has come because they spoke
Speaker 1: against the consensus. Everyone agreed that no one would ever fly. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: everyone agreed that. And the Right brothers were heretics. They
Speaker 1: against the consensus. How dare they if it's consensus by definition,
Speaker 1: isn't science. That's a famous quote from somewhere I can't remember.
Speaker 1: But the story I love about the Wright brothers was
Speaker 1: it was their their father, the pastor who coined, you know,
Speaker 1: that famous phrase of God had intended man to fly wings.
Speaker 1: That was their father. Well, he was certainly wrong about that.
Speaker 1: What's interesting though, is that he uh, similar, similar, similar
Speaker 1: to bitcoin. When Sados Nakamoto solved the general's problem, he
Speaker 1: came from somewhere totally different that no one had looked at.
Speaker 1: And we see that all the time. So the Right brothers,
Speaker 1: they were not engineers. They were bicycle mechanics, and so
Speaker 1: you kind of have to have that different point of view. Um,
Speaker 1: you're listening to the Mark Moa show, and uh, we're
Speaker 1: talking about bitcoin, the Decentralized Revolution. I've been here talking
Speaker 1: with Mark Jefftovic. We're talking about his book called Unassailable
Speaker 1: and you can find him on Twitter, um at stunt
Speaker 1: Pope and check out his news letter of Crypto Capitalist.
Speaker 1: That's what I got for you today. Thanks for listening.