WEBVTT - The Mark Moss Show - LIVE from Miami with Mark Jeftovic 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.920 Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of The Mark Moss Show, 0:00:02.920 --> 0:00:06.800 where we talk about the intersection of politics, finance, and technology, 0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:10.119 which bitcoin is at that intersection. I'm talking about the 0:00:10.160 --> 0:00:14.360 decentralized revolution that is changing the world as we speak. 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:18.160 And I'm coming to you from Miami South Beach, Miami 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:22.760 for the Bitcoin Conference. Got about forty thou people descending 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:26.800 on this city to talk about some weird magic internet 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:29.560 money or something crazy like that. Right, And I'm joined 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:33.400 by Mark jeff Dovic. Jeff Dovic he's been writing in 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:36.240 a newsletter called The Crypto Capitalist, which I've been reading 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:38.680 and I've really been enjoying it. And you can find 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:42.800 him on Twitter at stunt Hope and Uh, Mark, thanks 0:00:42.800 --> 0:00:45.000 for joining me today. Hey, Mark, it's great to meet you, 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:47.320 and I love your show, so it's a thrill to 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:50.120 be on it. Great. Yeah, I was looking forward to 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:54.319 this conversation as well. So, um, you know one thing that, uh, 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:58.960 to understand bitcoin is difficult because it's so many things. 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:02.680 And do you have to know disciplines and philosophy and 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:07.200 game theory and motivation and monetary history and I mean politics, 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:09.720 all these different things. Right, you seem to be pretty 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:11.400 well versed in a lot of those things, which is 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:14.680 probably why you're grasping it pretty well, right, But I 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:16.759 love that. I what I would I really love about 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:20.200 it is it allows us to bring our sovereignty back, right, 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:24.720 to be able to control um our money and even 0:01:24.760 --> 0:01:28.000 more than that, right because I mean money is changing 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:31.560 as we speak. But um, I was before we started recording, 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:34.280 I was making a comment my unpopular opinion that not 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:36.480 everything needs to be decentralized. Sorry for all your de 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:40.880 fibros out there. Um, Like, I recently bought an investment 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:43.920 property in Texas and I got a loan. I got 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:46.479 a loan, I locked in thirty year money at three 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:49.560 percent interest. Pretty good deal for me. I needed a 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:53.040 centralized entity to make sure that my credit was different 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:55.040 than your credit and give me a better rate than 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:57.800 your rate or something like that. And like somebody needed 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.840 to make that decision. It didn't need to be decentralized. 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:03.280 And I didn't want to have to overcollateralize that property 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:06.760 by a h I wanted to actually borrow eighty or 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:09.040 ninety percent of it, right. Um, So that's kind of 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:11.360 an opinion. So not everything needs to be decentralized. Um, 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:13.960 the money needs to be decentralized at least that's what 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:19.160 I think. Um. But but does the Internet That's one 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:21.679 thing I want to talk to you about today. Does 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:24.840 the Internet to meet need to be decentralized? Um? And 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:28.680 I'm not talking about the applications being built on the Internet. 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:32.520 What are your thoughts on that? Well, the Internet as 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:37.520 we know it was designed to be a decentralized technology. Uh, 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:41.360 stack of protocols, right, The Internet stack is seven layers 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:44.600 going from the application layer down to the you know, 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:49.240 transport layer and uh, I actually can't remember all seven 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:51.280 of them off the top of my head. But ideal 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:55.680 in the naming layer, right, because my main company, Easy 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:59.200 d n S is like a domain name DNS company. 0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:01.680 So if we started the top and work down, you 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:04.040 have like an I s P. You're in a service provider. 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:06.280 And then does the DNS sit on the next layer 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:08.760 below that? Well, so at the very top you've got 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:12.520 applications like Twitter and Facebook and the applications and the 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:15.480 webs Right, your I s P is going to sit 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:19.560 further down the stack because they're really just moving packets around, right, 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:21.679 And that's the company that you sign up with, that's 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:25.480 your cox cable or what podcast and they're just giving 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:29.800 you the raw pipe and uh. And then between actually 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:32.280 that layer and the application layers, you have this this 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:36.040 naming layer where you don't want to memorize IP addresses 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:39.160 would be like akin to memorizing Bitcoin addresses. You can't 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:43.360 really do it. So you need this this translation mechanism 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:47.160 to go back and forth between IP addresses and human 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:52.560 memorable labels. And that is the DNS system Domain Name system, 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:57.040 and that is you know, sort of decentralized, but not 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:01.240 really because it's an inverted tree hierarchy, right you hear. 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.480 You have like one Mark Moss dot com. There's an 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.440 implicit dot at the end of that that no one 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:09.960 you don't really have to write, but that dot is 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.880 the root of the Internet naming system dot com. Nope, 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:17.640 the dot after the dot com. But nobody really writes 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:20.000 it because it's just a convention, Like all the machines 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:21.760 know it's there, so you don't have to put the 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:25.000 dot after the dot com. But at the top of 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:28.920 this tree, this inverted tree, there's the dot, and then 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:32.800 under that dot is calm and net and organ and 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:37.000 then these these um newer ones like website and support 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:41.240 and w TF and media and all of them, and 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:45.840 then underneath those, like every dot is another layer in 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:49.520 the tree, right, so underneath Calm is one Mark Moss 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:53.880 and then if you've got www or f t P 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:57.480 or mail, then that's underneath. So you have this inverted 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:01.600 tree hierarchy. So it's really at the end of the day, 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:05.159 it's kind of centralized because at every level of that tree. 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:07.320 I don't want to get too technical, but you know 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:09.400 what you call a zone cut. You can have a 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:12.279 different set of name servers that are servicing that level, 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:15.040 So you can have these nick like you could have 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:20.120 completely different entity handling one you know, one sub domain 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:24.080 under your domain, but everyone above you in the tree 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:27.080 can really exert influence on you all the way down. 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:32.080 So when someone tries to d platform a website, for example, 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:34.840 they can go to your I s P. They can 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:37.039 go to your web host. They can even go to 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:39.960 the registry and say take it out of the dot com. 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:42.680 So the the host would be where my website is hosted, 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:45.479 so Amazon Web Servers or something like that, that's the host, 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:47.800 so they could attack there, and then we have the 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:50.080 I s P, which is my Comcast or whatever, and 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:52.359 they could say, hey, don't route traffic to that i 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:55.000 P and then we use VPNs to get around that 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:58.200 can happen. Yeah, um, and then you would have then 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:00.840 the name server. I guess that's what you're talking about. 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:03.800 You can go to either the name server operators and 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:06.960 say stop resolving this name, or you can go to 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:10.040 the registry operator like a VERI sign or an aphilius 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:13.479 and say take this name right out of the zone. 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:15.880 So that means when somebody wants to go to my website, 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:19.760 um on one Mark moss um, so they type that 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:22.240 in and then the service then matches that and then 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:25.920 routes it to the the IP address. The IP address 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:27.360 if you've ever set up a router at your house, 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:28.719 you know what that is. But it's like a one 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:31.240 six eight dot one, dot one, do whatever, something like that. 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:33.640 So it would it would take my name and then 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:37.640 routed to that IP address. But if there's something that 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:39.720 gets in the in the middle of that that says 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:42.800 don't do that translation or there's nothing to look up 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:44.840 because of the zones the name has been pulled from 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:48.479 the zone, then you don't get there, right. So those 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:51.320 are some of the main attack vectors now in in China. 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:55.560 What's the Great Firewall of China. Um, you know, there's 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:58.200 no Google, no Facebook, no no Netflix, none of that. 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:00.839 But they still get around the Great Firewall of China, 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:03.920 right just using VPNs mostly yea. So it's mostly being 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:06.320 blocked at the I s P level there, the Internet 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:09.520 service provider they even So there's it's like an escalating 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:13.680 arms race because VPN providers will then get blocked, right 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:18.200 because the State apparatus is monitoring for new VPN services 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:22.000 and they monitor the the the address tables and that 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:25.360 sort of thing. So it's a constant back and forth. Okay, 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:28.120 so but most people use VPNs to get around the 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:29.520 I s P. So that seems to be the main 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:33.480 source of of of censorship, I guess. And then the 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:35.400 next would be the name. Now on the name, they 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:38.360 could not allow the name to route properly. But if 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:41.080 someone typed in my IP address directly, couldn't they still 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:43.800 get there? They could? Yeah, as long as the host 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:46.240 didn't take it down. Yeah, that's what happened with wiki 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:50.040 leaks back in two thousand ten. And uh, you know 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:52.000 that was the whole, the whole story that we got 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:55.000 embroiled in. But then they enough people knew the IP 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:58.240 addresses that they could still get to the website. So 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:02.720 to answer your original question, d n S is somewhat decentralized, 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:06.880 but there still is this like inverted tree centralized hierarchy 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:10.200 to it um, it's more I consider it more like 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:14.800 a federation then, like it's a federated hierarchy, not a 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:19.240 top down hierarchy. But I always used to say, you know, 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:21.840 when people would get up in arms about something that 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:23.840 happened at the DNS level and they'd say, we need 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:27.680 a decentralized d n S, I would always chirp in 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:31.720 from on high saying, you know, you can't do it 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:34.280 because it's an inverted tree hierarchy and there's you can't 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:38.160 d P two P DNS is impossible. And then Bitcoin 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:41.319 came along and it proved me wrong because then I realized, oh, 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:43.280 you know what, you don't have to have an inverted 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:48.040 tree hierarchy. You can use a decentralized ledger as the route, 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:52.480 and then you can pin things onto that decentralized ledger 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:57.000 and you would avoid name collisions. And so name coin 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:00.400 was an original like a very early UH fork of 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:03.400 Bitcoin that was experimenting that with that with the dot 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:05.760 bit t l D right. I don't know if they're 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:10.959 still going. There's been subsequent developments. There's Etherium Name Service 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:16.120 e n S, there's a handshake h n S unstoppable. 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:19.679 No one's done it right to bitcoin yet, but I 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:22.760 think I think there's a case for it. I think 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:26.319 it can happen. Yeah, we're talking about bitcoin. You listen 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:28.559 to the Mark Mo Show. I'm sitting down with Mark Jefftovic. 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:30.760 We will be back in just a minute. Do not 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:33.080 go away, all right, welcome back. You are listening to 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:36.600 the Mark Mo Show. We're talking about the decentralized revolution 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:38.360 that the world is going through right now. Of course, 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:41.480 bitcoin is spearheading that. I'm coming to you from Miami 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:44.160 Beach where I'm actually here for the Bitcoin conference, and 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:46.800 uh I'm going to be working the Bitcoin News desk. 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:49.839 I'm sitting down with Mark Jetovic. Now, before we took 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:52.120 the break, Mark, we were talking about this kind of 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:54.760 decentralized stack, and you're starting to get to the d 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:56.320 n S and I had asked you the d NS. 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:58.520 For those that are listening to do't understand, that's the 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:03.240 name domain name server service service service. So basically when 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:06.120 you type in my website name Mike one Mark Moss, 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:07.880 it will then route you to the IP address. And 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:09.720 I asked, if you just have the IP address, then 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:11.800 you said yes, that would still work. So that's kind 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:14.000 of how what happened with wiki leaks. You're giving that example. 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:16.760 I think that's kind of where we cut off. Yeah, 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:20.200 and the idea that I've been fooling with in the 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:22.599 back of my mind for a while now, and I 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:25.120 kind of let it go, and lately I've been bringing 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:28.600 it back is you could use a decentralized ledger as 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:31.200 kind of like a side chain to the actual legacy 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:38.160 d n S system, so rather than UM, rather than UM. 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:40.800 A lot of these decentralized DNS projects are setting up 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:44.320 new top level domains. You've got dot ef, You've got 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:47.000 dot crypto and dot n f T and all of 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:52.960 these things. UM. I'm watching those innovations and I'm interested 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:56.079 in them, but I don't know what's going to happen. 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:58.400 If there's going to be another expansion in sort of 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:01.280 the legacy d n S world that's run by I 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:05.439 can this corporation out of California. What happens if someone 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:08.080 tries to go for dot crypto, there is it going 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:11.440 to clash with a decentralized dot crypto. But I have 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:13.880 an idea that I've been sort of noodling with in 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:19.880 my mind where you use a decentralized blockchain and you 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:23.720 use it to extend existing domain names. So let's say 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:28.440 one Mark Moss dot com gets d platformed because um, 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:30.880 you've said the wrong thing, you committed a thought crime, 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:34.000 or even you forget you forgot to renew your your 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:37.200 bill with your registrar. If if there are enough like 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:41.559 almost like Web three enabled devices out there, I just 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:43.720 use that as a catch phrase for like meta mask 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:46.120 and these things built in your browser that's sort of 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:49.200 new to look at a certain well, I can't see 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:51.960 Mark Moss dot com or one Mark Moss dot com 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:54.959 in the legacy t LD, but is it is there 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:58.760 a record for it on this bitcoin block chain or 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:01.760 this whatever name blockchain and then just kind of pick 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:04.120 it up from there and have the same sort of 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:09.439 root arounding it rooting around the legacy um inverted tree 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.440 and picking it up off the blockchain. That could be 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:16.440 something pretty interesting. Yeah, So you just need something else 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:18.200 that can point to it, that can re that can 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:22.200 kind of work as like a routing system. Um. You 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:25.840 mentioned web three. Um, and if we think about like 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:27.280 a web three or if we think about like n 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:28.600 f T S, which I don't talk a lot about 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:29.760 n f T s, but n f T S you 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.880 basically have UM something pointing to a record like a 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:34.800 hash in a in a chain. So is that kind 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:35.959 of something like that where it kind of points it 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:37.920 and it can kind of redirect or something. I think 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:41.199 domain names are the original n f T So when 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:45.120 I look at squiggly lines there, you know, psychedelic squares, 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:47.920 I don't understand that like I do sort of. I'm 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:51.880 sort of like the knuckle dragger that says it's a JPEG, 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:54.360 which is a big deal. But when I look at 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:57.319 a domain name, like every domain name is a unique 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:01.280 data structure unto itself. It's pointing different IP addresses that 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:04.840 has different layers, and they can be they can be 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:08.400 like a labyrinth, they can be very elaborate and complex things. 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:11.360 One single domain they're all running on the same protocol, 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:13.320 every single one of them is different. And I look 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:15.079 at that and I say, that's an n f T. 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:17.959 And so when I look at what n f T 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:21.360 s aspire to be like, forget the squiggly lines, look 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:26.720 at just um rights management, look at even single sign 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:31.160 on capabilities, look at just transmitting data in a decentralized way. 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:36.439 About a uniform protocol that where each instance of it 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:39.040 is unique. Then I sort of look at that and 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:41.720 think n f T s could be like when you 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:44.520 look at it as a domain name, that could be 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:46.920 a very very powerful thing. That's sort of what I 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:48.720 was getting at when I was trying to describe that. 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:52.079 Look aside to a side chain to get your your 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:54.920 data from. Yeah, and n f T just stands for 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:59.200 a non fungible token, so obviously it can pretty much 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:01.280 most things in the world. They're non fungible, right, They're 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:04.559 not one to one so um, it's very broad generalization. 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:08.040 But getting back to them, not everything needs to be decentralized, 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:10.360 and so I guess, like I said, my thought process 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:12.040 was like, the money needs to be decentralized. But the 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:15.640 Internet is already somewhat centralized decentralized. So obviously Twitter, we're 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.000 all on Twitter and we're very it's very centralized, and 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:20.920 of course they can and can't censor that if they want, YouTube, etcetera. 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:25.920 But is the Internet itself decentralized enough that we could 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:30.200 use it. Yeah, I think it is. I mean, even 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:34.520 when you look at the name servers that operate just 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:37.320 the root t l D, you think, well, that's a 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:40.280 single point of failure. Well no, it's actually served by 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:43.600 thirteen name servers. So you say, okay, well that's decentralized, 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:47.840 but that's still only thirteen. Well, each thirteen of those 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:51.440 name servers is really just a name server instance themselves. 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:54.760 They can be multiple name servers. There's a protocol in 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:57.120 DNS I won't borry you with. It's called any cast. 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.480 It's basically multiple servers around the world answer to the 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:04.760 same IP address. So each one of those thirteen route 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:08.200 name servers are themselves in any cast constellations. So at 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:11.560 the end of the day, that dot root zone isn't 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:15.040 served by thirteen name servers. It's served by thousands of 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:19.600 name servers. And so you do have like you have 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:22.520 that structure, but it's still decentralized enough. And that's why 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:25.680 I used the phrase federation earlier on, because you have 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:28.920 all these disparent entities. Those name servers are run by 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:34.680 everyone from the the U S Military to IBM to 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:38.840 nonprofit organizations and so they're all just sort of running 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:43.520 miss same p It's it's kind of similar to bitcoin mining. Okay. 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:47.320 I think about one of the first examples that stands 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:50.520 out to me of this you know day and age 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:53.960 that we're in with censorship was when Alex Jones got 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:57.040 de platformed. Right, he just got wiped off the face 0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:59.280 in concerts. So like all the platforms kind of came 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:02.680 together and at every single account that he had. Um, 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:05.320 but they don't stopped him. His website is still up, 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:08.760 He's still getting millions of views on every show that 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:10.880 he does. Then he just broadcasting from his own So 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:14.560 like even as hard as he was d platformed, Um, 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:16.280 sure you can't find him on YouTube or you can't 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:19.000 find him on Google, but he's still they're kind of 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:23.720 a thing. Yeah, D platforming doesn't work D platforming for 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.760 the most part. Um, you may be able to take 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:29.960 out a single instance of a person in a D platforming, 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:33.160 but a lot of times that person can benefit from 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:35.640 D platforming or come back stronger. I mean that. Yeah, 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:37.560 you've got the book right there. I just handed to 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:40.520 or audio only, but you know chapter four of that 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.920 book is does D platforming even work. In the conclusion 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:48.360 I came to was it doesn't. So Mark is Uh. 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:51.400 I'm joined by Mark Jeff Dovic and I'm Mark Moss. 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:54.040 You're listening to the Mark Moss Show. Um, and Mark 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:57.080 just handed me a book called Unassailable and it says 0:16:57.120 --> 0:17:00.680 protect yourself from d platform attacks can soil culture and 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:04.720 other online disasters, which is pretty important because in today's 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:07.080 day and age, we're in a digital age. You know. 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:10.280 I thought about like Facebook ads, Like if you run 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:12.119 paid Facebook ads, which I've done quite a bit of 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.560 in the past. Um, it's so hard. I mean, they 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:17.200 banned your account for everything. And if you have an 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:21.600 online business and you can't advertise online, you're effectively out 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:23.720 of business and they can just shut you down. So 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:25.520 it's something I think about a lot. I want to 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:27.920 dig more into this actual book, and let's talk about 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:31.240 protecting yourself from d platform attacks because honestly, that's something 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:33.360 I really worry about. That's something I really worry about, 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:35.080 So I'd love to hear more about that. Um, you're 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:37.280 listening to the Mark Moa Show. We're talking about the 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:41.399 decentralized revolution that's being led by bitcoin. Um, we're talking 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:44.800 about how the world is changing from that. I'm at 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:47.919 the Bitcoin Conference in Miami recording with Mark Jeff Dvic 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:51.600 and Uh, we're gonna talk more about protecting yourself from 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:55.320 d platform attacks, cancel culture, and other online disasters when 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:57.880 we get back, So don't go away, all right, Welcome back. 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:00.520 You're listening to the Mark Moa Show. We are talking 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.560 about bitcoin and the decentralized revolution in the way it 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:07.560 is changing the world. UM joined today with by Mark 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:11.440 Jeff Tovic. We are in Miami for the Bitcoin Conference, 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:16.760 and we're talking about I made the unpopular opinion to 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:18.800 some people last night at a party that not everything 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:21.760 needs to be decentralized, the money needs to be decentralized, 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:24.600 and we're talking about the need. Does the Internet need 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:26.639 to be decentralized or is it? And so that's what 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:28.919 we've been talking about. Before the break and before we 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:31.679 took off, Mark, we talked about this book, this Unassailable 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:33.840 that you just wrote, UM, and it says protect yourself 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:37.200 from d platform attacks. So we just talked about Alex Jones. 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:39.720 He was d platformed and it's something that I think 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:42.760 a lot about because my you know, if they shut 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:45.360 down my YouTube channel, I mean man, that's that's gonna 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:48.040 be devastating for me. And uh, you know, if if 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:51.000 I was d platformed, it would be devastating. So how 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:54.760 do we protect ourselves from platform d platform attacks? So 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:56.960 one of the things you have to pay attention to, 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:01.119 I mean, the subtext to this today's conversation is is 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:06.160 the Internet decentralized. The protocols are decentralized. The protocols describe 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:09.879 a way to to operate in a decentralized fashion. The 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:13.879 platforms are centralized. So we're in this world where I 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:16.679 think the big defining tension, you know, you call it 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:21.359 the decentralized revolution. It's between centralization decentralization over here in 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:25.200 the Internet spaces, between protocols and platforms. Right, email is 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:27.600 a protocol. The most important thing you can do is 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:30.360 capture the email address of all of your users, your customers, 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:33.439 your followers. Get that email address when you're on Twitter, 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:36.760 when you're on YouTube. Those people aren't your customers, they're 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:40.159 not your followers, they're not your subscribers. Their YouTube's and 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:44.040 they let you have access to them provided your plane 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:46.399 by their rules. We call it a market, and we 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:50.320 say it's the list you own versus the list you rent, right, yeah, yeah, 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:54.159 and there's there's various different guys is for that. It's 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:56.840 you know, James tramp Co calls it own the race course. 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:01.480 I always loved that phrase, and so um you want 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:05.639 to use those platforms like Twitter and YouTube and Facebook 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:09.760 almost as a lead gen right. The number one goal 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:13.520 for every follower you get on those platforms get them 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:17.080 back to your website. Get their email address, right, That's 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:19.439 that's number one. Because anybody can stand up an email 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:23.760 server anywhere in the world, provided your following certain best practices, 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:27.520 you can send email to your subscribers as long as 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:31.040 you're not using Gmail, because Gmail is a centralized application 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:33.399 of it as a platform. The platform mail Chimp is 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:37.119 a platform. Mail Chimp is a platform that specializes you 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:39.680 sending your list, but they're going to monitor your content 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:41.840 and if you send them the wrong content, they're going 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:43.680 to shut you down. I got kicked off a mail 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:47.200 chump early on when I was writing my cryptocurrency research newsletter. 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:49.200 I was using mail Chump and they shut me down. 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:51.840 They saw I was using words crypto or whatever, and 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:54.480 they kicking off. Clavio did the same for us on 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:57.119 an automated and We had like a multi thousand dollars 0:20:57.200 --> 0:20:59.960 spend per month with them over on easy d n 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:03.680 us where we write our access is easy Weekly Technology Digest. 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:06.560 We're a technology company. How do you write about technology 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:08.679 without saying the word bitcoin in it? Right, So they 0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:11.760 shut us down automatically. So we move to a system 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:15.199 called maudic m A U T I C. That's not 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:17.959