WEBVTT - Cutting Carbon with Giant Mechanical Trees: Direct Air Capture 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:02.760 Hi Everyone. Earlier this year, Elon Musk put out a 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:05.320 one hundred million dollar prize for innovation and quote carbon 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.000 negative solutions or pulling c O two straight out of 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:10.959 the air, but benef carbon capture. Analyst David Madrid says 0:00:11.000 --> 0:00:12.880 Musk is missing the point that what is needed for 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:16.600 direct air capture is scale, not new technologies. The technologies 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:18.400 for pulling c O two straight out of the air 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:21.720 are largely proven, but need larger demonstration products to start 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:24.080 to bring down the cost of capture, which right now 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:26.640 is estimated at an eye watering six hundred dollars per 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:28.600 ton c O two. This week on the show, David 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:30.600 steps in to tell us about direct air capture and 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:33.080 how it works, the economics and how they compared to 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:35.240 capturing c O two from point sources like power plants 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:38.159 and industrial facilities, and the three hundred billion dollars already 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.800 going into a handful of demonstration projects. Our discussion is 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:44.159 based on report titled material Tech Highlight Direct Air Capture. 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:46.560 BEENOF users can get this report on banf dot com, 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:49.240 the Benf mobile app, and the Bloomberg terminal. As a reminder, 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:51.600 Beanof does not provide investment or strategy advice and you 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:53.400 can hear the full disclaimer at the end of the show. 0:00:53.520 --> 0:01:03.840 I'm Mark Taylor and you're listening to Switch Don Benif podcast. David, welcome, 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:06.120 Thank you. Can you just start it off really basic 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:10.319 and tell us what direct air capture is. So director 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:14.920 cuture is a conventional carbon capture technology, but instead of 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:18.160 capturing the carbon from a point source to general gas 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:21.680 processing plan or a power plan, it cuptures the uto 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:25.959 from the atmosphere. So it's basically a removal technology. So 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:30.480 basically it's a thigulous a mechanical tree. It is. It 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:35.080 is actually a mechanical tree, but using more an industrial approach. 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:38.120 So yeah, similar to a three removal technology with the 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:42.279 main goal of taking C two out of the atmosphere. Okay, cool, 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:46.120 So can you tell us what it looks like? Is 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:47.440 it the size of a tree or is the size 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:49.960 of refrigerator? The size of a house? What are we 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:53.360 talking here? Yeah, so the size really depends on how 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:56.360 much you two we are capturing per year. But actually 0:01:56.560 --> 0:02:00.760 we estimated that a conventional director capture plan for capturing 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:03.440 one million sounds of C two per year that would 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:06.880 require around two square kilometers maximum. When we compare that 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:10.239 to a first station, which requires around eight hundred square 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:14.840 kilometers that's conventional first station, and also bio energy with 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:18.079 CCS requires around three hundred, so we can see that 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:22.320 director capital is much lower land requirements. So there were 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:25.280 pretty much in a in a better position compared to 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:28.120 other room full technologies. Okay, So the idea is that 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:30.919 I do not want to deride you know, planting trees, 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:33.640 but like you can get more c O two sucked 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.480 out of the atmosphere her unit of area than you 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:40.640 could with a tree. Is that the idea absolutely absolutely 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:43.480 much more, much more for a given land, you can 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:47.000 capture much mercy two. We have director capture planted following 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:50.560 other removal technologies as we said, our first station or 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:54.200 bio energy with CCS. Okay, So, I mean I think 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:55.840 I know the answer to this, but like, can you 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:57.640 tell us why this is popular? I mean, just for 0:02:57.639 --> 0:02:59.400 those who haven't heard of it, maybe it's getting a 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:02.119 lot of attend to right now in the news and 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:05.400 as an option for more reducing CEO two. And I 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:07.240 guess that's the answer. Is there anything else that that 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:10.520 comes to mind? It's popular mainly because companies are looking 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:13.840 for removal technologies. Right, So it is pretty much known 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:16.640 that we will need some kind of removal technologies in 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:20.280 the future to actually get to one point five. So 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:23.760 companies are looking to direct air capture in order to 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:27.600 remove their emissions. And also we are in a point 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:30.600 in where companies such as Microsoft not only want to 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:33.600 offset their current emissions but also the tons of SEO 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:35.840 two that they emitted in the past. So you can 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:39.200 only do that through removal technologies, and there is where 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:42.840 directed capture can also play a big role. And also 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:45.600 it is true that there are other industries that are 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:48.120 really hard to the carbonize, such as cement or still 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:51.480 and there we will need some kind of removal technologies 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:56.480 to offset the last remaining emissions that we will have 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:59.560 in the future because some of the CEO two emissions, 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:02.040 well a lot of CEO two emissions from cement production 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:04.840 is actually process emissions that comes from the rock itself, 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:08.800 right exactly, exactly, Okay, okay, cool? Just to clarify, you know, 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:11.680 can you just clarify for people one point five degrees 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:14.880 in order to get to a worlding where the warming 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:18.680 gets to one point five and not warmer, it is 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:21.560 pretty sure and that we will need some kind of 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:24.719 remote technology, so we'll need trace of for a station 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:29.360 bio or two with CCS minoritization an the director capture 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:32.760 in order to take out emissions that are already in 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:36.200 the atmosphere. So we need to take out tones of 0:04:36.240 --> 0:04:39.880 c or two from the atmosphere because carbon dioxide is 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:43.080 the main greenhouse. Cassett causes global warming. So now that 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:47.440 we've established that, you know, it can be a really 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:49.599 great you know way to pulse CEO two out of 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:51.800 the air. Can you tell us a bit about how that, 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:54.040 how it does that? How does it pull CO two 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:56.560 out of the air? Director cup There is pretty much 0:04:57.480 --> 0:05:01.279 normal CCUS plan, but in set of character in CU 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:03.120 two from a point source it takes out from the 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:06.120 atmosphere right, so that there are main difference there such 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:08.640 as for example, in a director capture plan we need 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:12.599 the super large contactor a rise with funds that draw 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:16.080 CU two into the collectors right, and there is where 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:20.480 all the chemical process happens. But just for for us 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:22.600 to understand when we talk about the director culture plan 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:25.720 is pretty much similar to conventional c c US facility 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:28.279 that is located in a power plant for example, and 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:31.440 this technology has been around four decades, right, But the 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:35.120 main difference is the cost. So the cost in the 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:37.880 points is much lower than taking CU two out of 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:41.240 the atmosphere, and that is basically because the concentration of 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:44.760 C two in the atmosphere is much lower four hundred 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:48.479 parts permilion when we compare that to point sources where 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:51.599 the concentration is super high. It depends on the point source, 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:53.360 of course. But then if we get to the low 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:56.440 hanging fruit fertilizer plants, ethanol plants there, the cost of 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:59.839 culturing is pretty much very cheap compared to two current 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:01.680 US the direct air cauntor that we estimate to be 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:06.240 around six hundred dollars per ton. But again there are 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:09.760 different technologies there, and the proposed that they're used for 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:14.239 is also different. We need to deploy conventional CCUS plans 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:17.039 in those assets that we really wanted to carbonize and 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:19.880 then use direct air caunitor for this really hard to 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:24.679 carbonizing industries on to offset the last remaining emissions, taking 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:29.160 advantage of high cost but super high modularity, easy to 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:33.159 deploy technology, But how does it work? Like so specifically, 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:35.200 can you tell us about you know in the note 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:39.719 that you wrote there are basically two main methods of 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:42.840 capturing c U two. Is that correct? That's correct? Yeah, 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:45.920 that's correct. Can you describe those? There are two different 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:50.039 technologies that are used nowadays, one that is absorption and 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:52.880 the other that this absorption that this would be difficult 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:55.800 to pronounce, but the main difference in these technologies is 0:06:55.880 --> 0:07:00.520 how the chemistry works there. So absorption is a volume phenomenon, 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:05.120 while adsorption is a surface phenomenon. So in absorption, the 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:09.120 C two gets dissolved in the solvent, while in adsorption, 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:13.040 being the two are touched in the surface. We need 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:16.000 more surface for for the same volume of CU two 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:18.800 to get captured at the end. Okay, so let's let's 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:23.680 let's break that down really quick. So adsorption solid sponge, 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:29.160 let's let's think of it, correct, and absorption dissolved liquid. 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:31.880 Does that work? Yeah, that's how it works? Okay, cool? 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:33.920 And so those are two main methods of doing it. 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:36.400 So can you describe some of the advantages and disadvantages 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:38.800 of each type of technology? The main difference is the 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:42.600 temperator that the plan needs in order to regenerate the sorvent. 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:46.960 So when we talk about liquid solvents, the temperator that 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:49.720 is needed is around nine hundred degrees celsius. And on 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:53.200 the other hand, for solid absorption, the temperator that is 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:56.080 needed is around a hundred degrees celsius. So the difference 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:58.800 there is much lower. And that's why in a liquid 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:01.840 solvent plan that i'm plats are much higher. Wheels need 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:06.440 much higher thermal energy to regenerate the sorbent. Okay, so 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:09.120 just to clarify, regenerate the solvent means you fill up 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:12.360 the filter or the the sorbent and then you need 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:14.000 to get the CEO two out so you can use 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:17.280 the filter or the sponge or the liquid again. Right 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:19.920 to me, it sounds like a no brainer. What am 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:22.960 I missing that you know you have the nine hundred 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:26.240 c regeneration temperature. That sounds like a deal breaker to me, 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:27.840 and you would go with the one that has a 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:30.760 lower temperature. Why is their choice? Like? What makes this 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:34.360 liquid sorvent good? That's a really good point, and there 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:37.400 are many things that affect the overall cost. But when 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:42.160 we compare solid absorption to liquid absorption, it's not only 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:44.640 the temperator that makes a difference, but also the materials 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:47.160 that we are using on the sorbent that is being used. 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:49.480 So the serving is a big part of the gass. 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:53.600 And of course companies that are working with solvents use 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:56.320 different type of sorbents and companies that are working in 0:08:56.480 --> 0:09:00.760 absorption or to use different types of materials on servants. 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:03.880 So there's a key difference there in the materials that 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:07.480 are used to power on, to captor to tow the end. 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:09.760 Forgive me from my terminology, but I keep coming back 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:11.760 to the sponge and the liquid, right, But so you 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:15.080 could you could say that the sponge is more expensive 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:20.240 two produce and consume, I guess, and the liquid is cheaper, 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:24.000 but the regeneration is more expensive. Is that right? Exactly? 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:27.560 That's the difference that we are seeing companies doing, and 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:30.679 that's that's what the industry is doing at the moment. 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:33.480 You also, there is a lot of demonstration in order 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:37.760 to try to reduce the total cost the industritionarily stage, 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:41.480 so it needs to get two economies of scale, get 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:46.600 the specialized supply chain, demonstrate new servants. But that you're right, 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:51.120 You're right, that's the main technology technology differences. Okay, okay, 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:53.920 I think we got it roughly. Now, can you tell 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:57.800 us what the costs are you know, can you give 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:00.320 us a ballpark estimate of how expensive this st first 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:03.680 to do, just to give a starting point, current cost 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:07.480 of Hunter are around six hundred dollars per ton of 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:10.679 C two, so very very expensive when we compare it 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:14.480 out to other remote technologies. But then again, as we 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:17.679 were saying, the technologies in super early stages, companies are 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:22.360 finalizing their pilot plants and trying to scale their technology. 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:26.240 So the cost is six hundred now, but it kind 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:29.480 of declined, and it really decline. US technology scales more 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:34.560 planted commission on build economies of a scalar, realized industries 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:38.440 get specialized supply chains. And also these companies learn from 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:42.040 operating these facilities, right, so they can reduce the cost 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:46.200 of operating and the opex overall would be reduced. And 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:50.400 we thought the industry beliefs that we can get to 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:52.920 point of around two hundred and fifty dollars per ton 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:56.800 of cutuo pupture by twenty thirty and then around a 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:59.760 hundred dollars per ton of C two by twenty fifty. Right, 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:03.320 so current studies that are released by the company's working 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:08.079 in director counter estimate taught in and of a kind cost, 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:10.679 we could get two points around a hundred dollars per 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:13.520 ton of C two counterct man. Okay, this is fascinating. 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:16.000 So we're gonna we're gonna go on a journey here 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:19.240 of talking about this cost and what it actually means. 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:21.839 So in the US, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:24.160 but there's a tax credit I believe called forty five 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:26.920 Q where a company can get a tax credit for 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:29.760 injecting CEO two into the ground of what is it now, 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:32.760 forty five dollars a ton? I want to you actually 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:36.040 get fifty if you started on thirty five. You're using 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:40.760 foreign hans recovery. Okay, cool, So we're hearing that that is, 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:45.080 you know, at least bordering on commercially viable at this point, 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:48.200 is that right? That's therrect So point source. You get 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:51.280 to a point where the cost of cultury is lower 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:54.120 than fifty, then yeah, you can make it a business 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:58.800 case out of eats. Okay. So we're at six dollars 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:02.040 a ton, now three hundred dollars a ton in ten years, 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:04.360 eight years, and then the end of a kind at 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:08.320 a hundred okay, So even that doesn't quite compete with 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:10.880 what you're telling me. Right now for point source capture. 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:14.360 But what I would take from that is that this 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:16.360 is you know, personal opinion. I guess that it just 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:20.920 doesn't matter, right because my assumption here is that direct 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:24.280 or capture we will mostly be important for companies that 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:27.760 want to offset emissions and this might be the only 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:29.679 option they have to do it. I don't know, is 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:34.800 that right? That's right? Just when comparing a conventional CCUS plan, 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:38.480 if we are actually covering of the CEO two that 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:41.520 is released in these point source plants, it's a power 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:44.160 plant for example, there is the other attemplature scent, these 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.240 tem per cent of emissions also need to be offset 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:50.800 at some point, right, so when we deploy all the technologies, 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:53.360 there would be emissions that we need to be removed. 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:56.200 And that's for a direct our company role. And also 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:58.800 you're absolutely right when we compare it costs of point 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:02.080 source to direct air capture, it is through the director 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:05.760 clupure is much more expensive. But we are seeing pathways 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:09.959 where director capture come be valuable for companies to follow 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:13.240 instead of paying the taxes super high current taxes expected 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:16.320 for example in Canada or Norway. Cool okay, So it 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:19.719 sounds like an option of several over time, and it 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:21.840 sounds like it also could be kind of like equated 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:24.640 to the last mile for deliveries, right like your last 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:26.559 ton of c O two to squeeze out in your 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:29.920 in your offsets exactly exactly. So how much is this 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:32.080 actually being used? We know it's early stage, but just 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:34.240 how early stage? Right now? How many tons of c 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:37.720 O two are currently being removed from the atmosphere via 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:41.520 direct air capture? Estimates say that a bit more than 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:46.320 six thousand tons of two can be captured per year 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:50.440 using direct air capture facilities already commission so that's super low. 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:54.440 That's very early stage. But we are seeing how the 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:58.320 industry is making progress. Companies are expected to commission larger 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:01.960 scale plans, so we're really seeing a change there. For example, 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:04.360 there will be a plan to will big emission this 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:07.200 year that we'll have a capacity of four thousand tons 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:09.040 of C two rights. So if we compare that to 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:13.240 the overall deployed capocity, that's already a significant a bondsman, 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:17.560 so there is significant progress there. What it is through 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:21.320 that we are in early stages of development of the technologies. 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:24.680 Pilot plants have been built on the largest scale plants 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:26.840 or plan to be built in the near future. Okay, 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:32.360 so just to recap super early stage, super expensive, but 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.120 could play a really important role in in taking C 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:36.960 or two out of the air in the future. When 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:39.240 we come back, we're going to talk about those pilot projects, 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:41.480 what's being done, who are the main players, and how 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:47.760 they're hoping to scale. Stay with us, so let's talk 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.000 about who's doing what can you tell us who the 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:53.720 main players are in direct air capture? There are mainly 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:56.200 three big players in the direct hair cutter space and 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:59.440 taking all their fundings together to put that into perspective, 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:01.800 they have raced more than three hundred millions right, and 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:05.960 these three main players are first Carbon Engineering, second climb 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:09.360 Works and third Global Thermostat are the all US companies. 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:12.760 Global Thermal Stati is the US company, Current Engineering is 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:16.320 from Canada and Climworks is actually Swiss company. And what 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:19.040 are they doing? So? What technology has they chosen? What 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:22.200 is their status report? So Current Engineering is following the 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:26.480 liquid absorption technology that we were talking about before, and 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:30.400 climb Works and Global Thermal stack the solid absorption pathway 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:34.160 and they also have pretty much different plans to scale 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.720 their technology to put that into a current view of 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:40.600 the industry. Climb Works is the company that we commissioned 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:44.880 the four thousand tons per year facility this year, but 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:48.480 then Carbon Engineering plans to commission a one million tons 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:52.800 per year facility by four that's two hundred fifty times 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:56.760 larger than the current largest back facility that will be 0:15:56.800 --> 0:16:00.160 commissioned by Client Works. So there is massive progress in 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:05.720 the industry there, Uh, skeptical. So I don't know for 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:07.840 those listening, Like I think I mentioned this several times before, 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:09.680 but I used to be a CCS or carbon capture 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:12.160 and storage analysts ten years ago, and there's all these 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:15.760 announcements about projects, you know, big projects that were coming online, 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:18.840 and you know, big pilots as well. You know, company 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.240 would say we're gonna build three of these, We're gonna 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:22.960 build four of these, and I would always just say, well, 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:27.360 show me one. And that resulted in us putting together 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:29.080 this thing we called the race to first, you know, 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:31.480 who was going to actually build the first commercial scale 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:36.280 UM or large scale CCS project and we would track 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:39.560 and detail the progress of each project. So can you 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:42.160 tell me? You know, there's a big difference between a 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:44.960 company saying they're going to get a pilot project or 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:48.040 a commercial scale demo done and actually doing it. So 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:50.280 can you tell us about how far along they are 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:53.360 or is that known or not? Yeah? So, for example, 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:55.760 for the facility that Climbers will build this year is 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:59.960 pretty much in super advanced stage, so alright, alright, cool, 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:02.960 only finished in Iceland, so that's looking great. Of course, 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:05.040 looking at twenty twenty four, which is the year when 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:08.359 Current Engineering expects the commission there one million ton per 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:12.560 year facility, it's more uncertain there. But it is true 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:16.200 that these companies are bagged by super large oil corporations. 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:20.040 For example, oxy is partnering with Curbon Engineering, right Excellent 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:22.680 is going with global thermal style, so there is really 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:26.120 bugged there on now, Director Canter lives like the main 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:30.640 part of the carbonization solutions for large oil corporations. Okay, 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:32.240 let's come back to that, but let's talk about the 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:36.280 pilot's really quick and fine. I'm sold. It sounds it 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:39.080 sounds promising. So the one clear question in my mind 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:41.679 is is okay, so why Iceland right for a for 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:44.320 a demo for direct air capture. The good thing about 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:46.800 the facility that climb Rooks is building in Iceland is 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:49.280 that it is taking advantage that is located next to 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.800 a thermal power plan, So basically it's taking the heats 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:56.520 and electricity produced by the gil tormal plan to power 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:59.400 the process. So all the energy requirements are coming from 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:02.840 the gil term power plant. Plus, Plant Works is also 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:05.760 partnering with card Fix, which is a company that mineralizes 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:08.399 the U two, So in this facility, the c O 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:12.159 two is basically mineralized on a story in the long term. 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.800 So there's two advantages that are the first that the 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:19.280 facility is located to thermal power plant and the second 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:23.280 is that the C two is stored through minoralization. Okay, 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:25.240 I'm just gonna nerd out for a second that that's 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:28.760 really cool. So, like everybody listening, I'm sorry, I used 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:31.440 to be a geothermal analyst who ten years ago, and 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:35.320 I've been to this plant, the Hellociety plant in Iceland, 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:37.320 and and if anybody's interested, they have a really cool 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:39.119 visitor center you can go check it out, you know, 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:41.720 and have a look. But what's really cool is that 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:45.040 this project kind of a I don't know if it's 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.840 a dark secret, but whatever. A thing about geothermal is 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:49.600 that there's there's c O two in the ground and 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:51.840 sometimes when you pull up the water while c O 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:54.120 two is going to come out too. And so one 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:56.480 of the justifications I think for this plant was that 0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:59.159 it can help capture some of the CEO two that's 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:03.800 admitted by the geothermal activity or the geothermal production and 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:07.720 therefore making this plant even more environmentally friendly, which is 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:13.280 really cool. And Iceland has a unique well unique chemistry 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:15.560 that can fix the CEO two in the rocks below, 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:18.359 unlike you know, other locations where it would just be stored, 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:20.920 so it'll instantly mineralized. And it's really just a pretty 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:25.199 cool thing. I question the you know, the ability to 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:28.320 scale this out much much further in Iceland, you know, 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:32.000 being so so small, but it's a super interesting choice 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:35.600 for a pilot project. It is to scale this up 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:39.560 to tons per year. Oh wow, Okay, that's really cool. 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:43.800 That's really cool, and that seems to be the challenge, right. 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:47.800 So from your note you said that the technology has 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:51.240 basically proven, but the challenge is scaling it up, is 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:53.800 that right? And getting the cost down. Can you talk 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:57.560 about what companies are doing to try to jump this 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:01.800 hurdle of of scale up. Companies are following different approaches, right, 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:03.840 So for example, climb Works is the company that has 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:08.080 commissioned more plants, but they are all super small scale. 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:11.920 But then taking advantage of ducts moderority, climb Works is 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:15.040 following different paths there. So for example, they are doing 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:19.040 a project in Norway to produce liquid fields. So taking 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:22.080 the sitoo that has been captured and partnering with Sunfire 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:25.040 and others, they are planning to produce liquid fields. Then 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:27.480 they are building the facility in Iceland which is actually 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:32.240 storing through minioralization the sudwo that has been captured, then 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:34.840 moving on to blow a thermostat. They are providing the 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:39.480 sutwo for carbonated rings and then moving on to oxy. 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:42.800 What oxy is sorry one oxygen current engineering moving onto 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:45.600 carbon engineering. What current Engineering is doing at the moment 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:48.159 is partnering with oxy to provide them with you two 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:52.000 that will be used for enhanter recovery operations. So there 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:55.639 are really different approaches there, all of them taking advantage 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:59.760 of the moderity that director capture provides. So I was 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:03.359 they about this morning right that when you talked about 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:06.560 the well the enhancesful recovery. You know you're capturing steal 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:08.879 two to pull up more oil. That sounds like a 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:11.400 you know, kind of a paradox, I guess. And then 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:14.159 I think in the note you also mentioned that to 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:17.080 get the heat required to regenerate the liquid sorbi, and 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:20.960 they were burning natural gas. Right. To me, the comparison 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:23.000 that I made in my head was that, Okay, that's 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:26.600 like getting an electric vehicle but charging it with a 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:29.160 diesel generator in your back garden. So it's kind of like, 0:21:29.280 --> 0:21:33.600 you know, mixing your your goals here. I think I 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:37.000 came to terms with it that it helps these companies 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:39.520 get to scale and come down the cost curve. Right, 0:21:39.520 --> 0:21:41.200 It's a means to an end. Is that how you're 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:43.800