WEBVTT - First Trump SCOTUS Win & Battle With Unions 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:07.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:12.119 In a five to four vote, the Supreme Court intervened 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:16.200 for the first time to bolster President Donald Trump's campaign 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:19.439 to wipe out federal spending programs he opposes. 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:22.079 In a Friday order, five of the. 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:27.480 Court's conservative justices cleared the Education Department to withhold money 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:32.320 for teacher training projects in eight Democratic states. The Education 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:35.760 Department had canceled one hundred four of one hundred and 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:41.760 nine grants under two training programs because of concerns about diversity, equity, 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:45.720 and inclusion. The justices halted a trial court ruling that 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:50.400 had temporarily required the department to keep covering incurred expenses. 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:54.440 Chief Justice John Roberts and the court's three liberal justices 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:58.400 indicated they would have denied the government's request. Joining me 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:01.880 is an expert in constitutional law. Harold Krant, a professor 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:05.039 with the Chicago Kent College of Law, tell us about 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:09.080 the cancelation of the grants and the lawsuit by eight 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:10.880 Democratic states over. 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:16.479 That the Education Department had decided that, for whatever reason, 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:20.679 the too many teacher training grants had been awarded and 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:23.920 therefore decided to claw them back. They clawed them back 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:28.720 on the grounds that the grants might have in some 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:34.600 ways contributed to illegal dei initiatives, So that's unclear, and 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:37.640 they used that reason for all of them. Un mass. 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:41.200 They didn't individually pick out a grant to the Chicago 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:44.480 schools versus New York schools versus their college training program. 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:49.760 They basically issued boilerplate stopping millions of dollars of grants 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:55.560 with no specificity, just using boilerplate language. The lawsuit then 0:01:56.000 --> 0:02:01.800 was filed to attack the administration's to stop the grants, 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:07.600 and the trial judge issued a tro saying that the 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:11.400 government had to continue honoring the grants until there was 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:14.760 a full decision on the merits of the case. And 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:18.480 that's the status of the issue, which was then raised 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:21.720 first to the Appellate Court and finally to the Supreme 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:26.240 Court on its emergency docket, and the Supreme Court gave 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:30.120 the Trump administration a small victory on Friday by saying 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:34.160 that the court should not have an issue the temporary 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:39.639 restraining order which turned into a quasi injunction in the case, 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:43.320 and they should have allowed determination to take effect at 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:45.760 least until deciding the merits of the case. 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:49.760 In everything to do with DEI. The Trump administration says 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:54.840 that DEI is unlawful. Is there support for that theory? 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:59.760 Well, in some conceivable contexts, it might be if you 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:04.280 end up favoring, you know, women over men for some reason, 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:07.720 or if you end up favoring a particular religious group 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:12.040 as opposed to another in an effort to attain DEI objectives, 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:15.359 that would violate the civil rights laws as well as 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:19.040 the Constitution argically, But there's been no showing that that's 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:23.040 what's happening in these grants in particular or in other areas. 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:28.200 So the administration is just drawing with a huge broad 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:31.280 brush and saying that if you talk about issues of 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:36.520 fairness justice, that's a pan amount to violating either the 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:37.680 statue or the Constitution. 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:41.920 Explain what the majority said in its opinion. Why did 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:43.080 they decide this way? 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:45.520 The real question is why did the Supreme Court take 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:47.640 this case at this juncture. But in terms of what 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:51.360 it's said, the most reasonable part of what it stated 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:55.080 was that the lawsuit was filed in the law court. 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:58.640 The theory is that at the bottom of this claim 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:02.160 is a claim for namely, that the grant should be funded. 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:06.000 That is a claim for money, and therefore the plaintiff 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:08.560 should have rallied their claim to the Court of Federal Claims, 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:15.320 which is the tribunal that Congress has directed for all 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:19.080 pursuit of monetary claims against the government. And that's a 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:23.239 reasonable argument. There is some fuzziness about the Court president 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:27.240 about when a claim is won for money. So you 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:29.200 could stay in this case that it's about money, or 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:33.680 it's about not having your grants arbitrary and capriciously violated. 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:36.159 There's two ways to look at it, and so the 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:38.719 court will have to make that decision. Indeed, that is 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:42.560 a common issue for almost all of the grants, the 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:45.400 hundreds of millions of dollars of grants that the Trump 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:47.960 administration has terminated in order to. 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:51.400 Do this, the majority found that the Trump administration would 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:52.760 likely win the case. 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.240 Well, they didn't say that, interestingly enough, they never talked 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:58.240 about well, they never talked about the merits of whether 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:01.800 or not the Trump administration had the power to deny 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:06.360 the grants. But they did say that the Trump administration 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:10.600 may well win on the jurisdictional issue, and so that 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:12.839 will have to be decided at some point by the 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:15.799 Court's appeals and then, most likely by the Supreme Court, 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:20.120 because it is an issue that is underlying all of 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:24.120 these massive grant cases. With respect to the River Bull Harm, 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:27.440 the Court was on shakier ground. They seemed to say 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:30.159 that the planters all had enough money to continue the 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:34.160 programs and weren't relying on these grants. And while that 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:37.480 might be true for a five day period, it certainly 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:40.039 will not be true for any extended period of time 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:45.719 while the litigation continues. So its decision with respect to 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.680 harm is very questionable. But again, I think with respect 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:52.200 to jurisdiction, the Supreme Court at least made a plausible decision. 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:57.400 So the Chief Justice John Roberts sided with the Court's 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:02.839 three liberals who dissented. Kagan wrote a descent, and Justice 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:07.000 Jackson wrote a descent that Justice Soda Mayor joined in, 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:09.279 but the Chief didn't join in any of those. 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:13.560 It's hard to read the Chief Justice's position here. I mean, 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:15.640 at the end of the day, it might be that 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:20.679 he resents the Trump administration demanding that the Court used 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:23.400 this emergency docket to decide all these cases, and I 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:26.400 think there are still at these five or six more pending. 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:29.039 That may have been the reason, but we certainly don't know, 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:32.039 because he didn't express it. Justice Bart obviously was the 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:37.160 interesting vote because she switched from the prior Supreme Court decision, 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:42.560 which cided against President Trump's administration on somewhat similar grounds. 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:46.920 So whether she has changed her mind, whether there was 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:49.880 something unique about this case, again, we simply don't know. 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:54.200 Justice Tanji Brown Jackson in descent, said that it was 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:58.159 beyond puzzling that a majority of justice is conceived of 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:01.960 the government's application as an emergency. I mean, where is 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:03.000 the emergency here? 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:08.839 The only emergency is the fact that the money might 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:12.160 be spent in the interim for the grants and that 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:15.400 the Trump administration will not be able to recollect it. 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:19.040 And I think that is probably true to some extent. 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:21.840 That would be very difficult for the Trump administration to 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.640 get back the money because it will be spent, you know, 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:27.240 on what Congress wanted to be spent on, which is 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:27.960 teacher training. 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:29.760 And maybe this goes to what you said. 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:34.120 Both Justice Kagan and Justice Jackson said that nowhere in 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:38.640 the papers does the government defend the legality of canceling 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:40.320 the education grants. 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:42.720 Yeah, I mean, the question was one of jurisdiction, but 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:45.240 in terms of whether the administration had the power to 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:48.800 cancel the grants. There was silence part of the Trump 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:53.760 administration because there is not clear law that would authorize 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:59.000 the administration to basically cancel the grants because it no 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:02.120 longer sees them as a priority. I mean, if they 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:06.680 could show that these grants were in some ways fostering illegality, 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:09.960 then they would have cause to cancel the grants. But 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:14.400 otherwise the administration needs to honor them, and that they 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:15.200 have not done. 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:20.400 As of today, the Trump administration has made seven emergency 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:24.200 filings with the Supreme Court. This is the first time 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:27.160 they've won. Do you see any significance in that. 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:30.920 I don't. I mean, I think that this might be 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:33.600 terribly thought. This might be a case in which the 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:37.840 jurisdictional issue is thorny, and therefore the Court thinks that 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:41.240 it's likely going to ultimately be decided and favor the 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:44.840 Trump administration, and that is plausible. Or it might be 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:47.920 that some members of the Court think that it's okay 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:50.679 to give the Trump administration little wins as long as 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:54.199 it don't buckle in in a major case. That remains, 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:56.839 of course, is totally specult. That remains to be seen. 0:08:57.320 --> 0:08:59.240 You know, I think this as just the one data point. 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:01.760 We're going to see the others again, because there's more 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:04.880 cases that are pending before we can make any kount 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:05.320 of judgment. 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:10.520 In its papers, the administration is casting the Supreme Court 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:15.720 request as having broader significance for the other lawsuits pending. 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:20.040 The Acting Solicitor General wrote, only this court can right 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:23.599 the ship, and the time to do so is now. 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:28.400 I mean, there's a message there that this is broader 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:29.720 than just this case. 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:34.160 Well, it's broader in the sense of the jurisdictional posture. 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:38.120 And what the acti solcial General may mean is that 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:40.880 from now on, all of these cases have been brought 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:43.880 before the Court of Federal Claims. And the question is 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:47.200 whether the Court of Federal Claims has the capacity to 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:51.280 hear all of these cases and to decide them quickly. 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:54.000 But this is not a victory on the merits because 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:57.480 as we discussed, I mean, the quote mentioned not one 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:01.880 win of the fact that the administration has the legal 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:04.160 power to do what it did. Its only question is 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:06.560 where the lawsuit should be situated. 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:06.959 As of today. 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:10.360 So the Trump administration today appealed because they don't want 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:14.480 to bring the prisoner back from Venezuela. So that is 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:18.480 the seventh administration appealed to the Supreme Court on the 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:22.360 emergency docket. There are some other ones that seem more urgent. 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:24.480 I'm wondering why they picked this one. 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:27.520 I really can't speculate on this one. The only sort 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:29.760 of guesswork that I could come up with is that 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:32.120 this is not as important as the other ones, and 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:35.960 so they wanted to again give Trump a small win 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:39.560 before they would have to really buckle down and reach 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:41.800 the merits of a case as opposed to just deciding 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:43.679 on jurisdictional grounds. 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:47.160 So there have been lots of articles lately. You mentioned 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:50.640 Justice Barrett. There have been lots of articles about how 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:55.400 she might become a moderate justice, siding more with the 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:59.040 middle of the court. But in something like ninety percent 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:03.680 of the cases she sides with the conservatives, and so 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:06.920 I'm wondering if all this is a little overblown. Because 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:09.040 she sided with the liberals in a few. 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:13.880 Cases, there is at least a progression of justice spirit 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:18.800 towards the middle, and everybody is holding the breath and 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:21.760 watching to see what will happen. I think that that 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:26.400 progression may well continue, but that's speculation, but I am 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:29.000 very convinced that she will have the opportunity because you're 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:31.719 going to be a slew of controversial cases that will 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:33.040 have to be decided by the court. 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:35.480 Coming up next on the Bloomberg Lawn Show, I'll continue 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:39.080 this conversation with Professor Harold Krent. The latest on the 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:43.040 marilynd man who was wrongly deported to a notorious prison 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:46.920 in L. Salvador. I'm June Grosso. When you're listening to Bloomberg. 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:51.000 Albrego Garcia had been lawfully living in Maryland with his 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:55.120 wife and young child, both US citizens. A twenty nineteen 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:58.560 immigration court order said he could be deported, but not 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:02.240 to L. Salvador, where he says he'd face gang based 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:08.160 extortion and persecution. Nonetheless, immigration officials arrested him on March 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:11.760 twelfth and accused him of playing a prominent role in 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:15.440 MS thirteen, though he hasn't been convicted of a crime 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:19.240 or even charged with one. Garcia was deported to L. 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:24.320 Salvador to its notorious prison there on March fifteenth. Despite 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:27.760 the court order. A federal judge gave the government until 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:32.480 eleven fifty nine pm Eastern time tonight to return him, 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:37.000 and a federal appeals court unanimously declined to block that order, 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.640 so the Trump administration went to the Supreme Court asking 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:44.240 it to block the order. Late this afternoon, Chief Justice 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:48.559 John Roberts paused the order, requiring his return by tonight. 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:51.920 The Supreme Court is now considering the case, with the 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:56.319 Chief Justice asking Garcia's attorneys to file a response by 0:12:56.360 --> 0:13:00.440 tomorrow at five pm. I've been talking to Professor Harold 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:03.760 Krant of the Chicago Kent College of Law how the 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:08.760 Trump administration has very close contacts with the president of 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:13.040 l Salvador, and they now have a multimillion dollar contract 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:17.560 to house deporties in the prison in El Salvador. Yet 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:20.920 the administration is claiming they don't have the power to 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:21.800 get him back. 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:24.640 That strikes me as just not believable. 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:28.080 It does seem ludicrous, And this whole case is just 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:31.520 so sad. I mean, there's an individual who was pulled 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:34.320 out of his car driving with his young son, who 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:37.680 has a order from an immigration judge that says he 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:40.960 has to be protected and not sent back to El Salvador. 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:44.160 So what do the authorities do? They without giving me 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:47.560 any kind of du process, without ascertaining or giving him 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:49.880 a chance to tell his side of the story. They 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:53.120 cut him off to various places in the country and 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:57.400 ultimately send him to El Salvador, where there's judicial order 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:00.960 saying he can't be sent and when there is a 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:05.080 question in court, the attorney doesn't know the answer, and 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:06.400 all he can think of is that there was an 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:10.600 administrative mistake, and that's what happens when there's no due process. 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:14.360 Administrative mistakes can turn out to be in a tragedy. 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.520 And then the court says, well, bring him back, and 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:22.960 the Trump administration says and actually goes to the Supreme 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:25.840 Court and says, that's too broad of an order because 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:28.440 we don't know whether we can bring him back. And 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:32.680 of course I'm empathetic to a certain extent that the 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:35.280 administration may not be able to get him back in 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:37.920 a day. But given the fact that they have something 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:41.640 like a six million dollar contract with El Salvador to 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:45.480 house these individuals, one would think that they have with 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:49.600 enough kind of financial pressure that can be applied upon 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:53.280 El Salvador to release the individual at least within a 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:56.360 matter of days. And it's a truly outrageous case. And 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.760 I have to think that Supreme Court is going to 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:03.480 say that maybe the lower court judge needs to narrow 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:06.800 the injunction a little bit to use you know, all 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:10.040 speed in order to bring him back, or give them 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:12.440 a week or something to bring the guy back. But 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:16.040 it's just, you know, an administrator's mistake leads to sending 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:19.720 somebody away from his family, somebody who's in now being 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:23.160 housed with people that he has a protective order against. 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:24.960 It's just simply outrageous. 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.400 Do you think the Trump administration is doing this? 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:31.480 Because if they admit this one, if they bring this 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:34.120 one back, and it opens the floodgates, because you have 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:37.160 all these people, none of them was given a hearing. 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:40.680 You know, I think that here. You know, whether or 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:44.040 not mister Garcia was a member or is a member 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:48.080 of the gang is unclear, but certainly he has an 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:51.400 order to prevent him from doing this. And we don't 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:53.800 even know about the other individuals. Right, some were probably 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:58.280 gang members, but some were mistaken because of their tattoos 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:01.760 or their friends, et cetera, et cetera. And this again 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:05.200 is just a clear example of what happens when you 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:10.240 don't follow process, and the administration doesn't want to follow process, 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:13.680 and so mistakes are made, mistakes can be fatal. I'm 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:15.760 glad in some ways you're going to Supreme Court because 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:17.840 I think on the merits, I think the Supreme Court 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:21.600 is going to really administration a loss. Again, I don't 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:23.720 know about the scope of the injunction or the speed 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:26.360 with which they have to bring him back, but there's 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:30.360 no way that the court can justify what happened here 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:31.560 because it is a tragedy. 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:36.320 Out of seven emergency applications, this seems to be the 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:38.400 first one that is really an emergency. 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:42.920 Yeah, and again I think that the Court is itself 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:46.840 backed into a corner by using its emergency doctrine so frequently. 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:50.160 But I agree this one is an emergency. The individual's 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:55.800 life is probably in danger and his rights were incredibly violated, 0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:59.640 and so I hope that the Court does use its 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:03.240 emergent and see docket to affirm what the lower court 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:09.800 has ordered, because that will ensure that the administration acts 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:13.920 with far greater swiftness than otherwise might do. Awesome, incredible 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:18.320 after this recent hearing on Friday, is that the Attorney 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:23.879 General suspended the government's attorney for being frank before the 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:27.520 court and acknowledging that they don't know why this individual 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:30.720 was arrested, and they didn't know why that there had 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:32.840 been no effort to bring him back once they were 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:38.320 alerted of the mistake, and his price for being frank 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:41.399 with the court was the fact that the Attorney General 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:46.280 suspended him for being insufficiently loyal to the administration. A 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:47.200 chilling moment. 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.760 Well, it looks like the court is acting very quickly 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:55.600 in this case, because the Chief Justice has ordered Garcia's 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:59.000 lawyers to respond by five pm tomorrow. 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:00.920 Thanks so much. How well, that's. 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:03.760 Professor Harold Krent of the Chicago Kent College of Law. 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:09.000 Turning now to Trump's battles with federal unions. Trump is 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:13.000 making a sweeping attack on collective bargaining rights as he 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:17.520 aims to lay off government workers. The administration has moved 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:22.520 to invalidate contracts between a swathe of US government agencies 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:27.320 and the two largest unions representing federal workers, claiming that 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:32.080 the collective bargaining agreements are impeding his efforts to reform 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.800 the government and pose a threat to national security. But 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:39.879 the unions are fighting back in court. The American Federation 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:44.320 of Government Employees and the National Treasury employees. Union have 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:48.919 sued the Trump administration in separate lawsuits, saying it's violated 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:53.920 the Constitution with its anti union directive, including violating its 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:57.560 free speech and due process rights. My guest is labor 0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:01.040 law expert and Lafasso a perfer asked with the University 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:02.520 of Cincinnati. 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:03.080 College of Law. 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:08.480 So this started with the Trump executive order instructing agencies 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:13.200 to stop collective bargaining with federal unions because of national 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:16.520 security concerns. Tell us about the order and the law 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:17.600 he's using. 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:23.640 He is issued in executive order based on five USC. 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:27.959 Seventy one oh three, and it's really piggybacking on an 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:33.040 old executive order that Jimmy Carter issued. And Jimmy Carter 0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:38.840 issued that executive order shortly after the Act that created 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:44.959 the Fair Labor Relations Authority, which is the authority that 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:49.880 deals with federal employees. It's the act that gave federal 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:55.920 employees the rights to unite. And that act says that one, 0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:59.439 it gives them the right to organize, but certain employees 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:02.840 don't have the right to organize because of national security, 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:05.240 and then it kind of lists a few of those, 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:10.280 but then it gives the president power to issue an 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:15.840 order excluding any agency or subdivision thereof from coverage under 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:19.320 this Chapter if the President determines that the agency or 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:24.920 subdivision has as a primary function intelligence, counter intelligence, investigative, 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:29.520 or national security work, and the provisions of this Chapter 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:32.600 cannot be applied to that agency or subdivision in a 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:38.320 manner consistent with national security requirements and considerations. So even 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:43.439 though all of these employees have somehow been unionized and 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:47.359 it's been consistent with national security, he is stated in 0:20:47.440 --> 0:20:52.680 his executive order that he has to do this because 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:58.720 of national security reasons and considerations, and that's the important word, considerations, 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:05.080 because a lot, it is a lot. This is disenfranchising many, many, 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:09.240 many employees. So in his view, the fact that they're 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:13.160 in a union and their collective bargaining agreement has made 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:19.480 it difficult for him to implement his national security policy. 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:25.199 That's in and of itself a really broadsweeping order that 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:28.600 no president has ever done. Not even after nine to 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:32.080 eleven did we have anything like this. We did have 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:35.320 some issues back in nine to eleven, and but much 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:38.239 more narrow and national security was much heightened back then 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:40.479 when we actually had a threat on the ground. 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:46.320 So after issuing the executive order, the Trump administration doesn't 0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:49.920 wait to be sued. Instead, it sues in federal court 0:21:50.040 --> 0:21:50.760 in Texas. 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:54.719 He wants to get around the idea of waiting for 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:57.280 all this to happen. So what he did was he 0:21:57.400 --> 0:22:02.359 filed a complaint in the West Eastern District of Texas, 0:22:02.800 --> 0:22:09.280 which is a very favorable district to the president's agenda, 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:12.560 and he filed this in the Western District of Texas, 0:22:12.600 --> 0:22:17.879 asking for a declaratory judgment. Now, a declaratory judgment is 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:22.400 under the Declaratory Judgment Act, the Declaratory Judgment Act. It's 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:25.840 an old statute, but it is used, and it was 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:30.960 a way to distinguish between something called advisory opinions and 0:22:31.280 --> 0:22:37.200 declaratory judgments. Advisory opinions are not allowed, and declaratory judgments are. 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:42.640 An advisory opinion is when the president asked the Supreme 0:22:42.640 --> 0:22:46.840 Court for its opinion on whether something's constitutional. So Jefferson 0:22:46.880 --> 0:22:50.520 did that way back when in the early eighteen hundreds, 0:22:50.800 --> 0:22:54.440 and the Supreme Court said, justin Marshall said no, no, no, 0:22:54.520 --> 0:22:57.800 we can't answer that question. That's an advisory opinion, and 0:22:58.720 --> 0:23:01.000 that's up to you to decide, and you do it 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:03.199 and then if you get sued, we will decide that. 0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:05.919 And in fact, that's how the Office of Legal Counsel 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:08.840 eventually got made because in the Office of Legal Council 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:12.720 is an executive branch agency that counsels the president on 0:23:12.840 --> 0:23:16.680 the constitutionality of his her their acts. So the first 0:23:16.760 --> 0:23:21.400 question here is is this really declaratory judgment? And as 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:24.600 he able to do this, so put aside whether this 0:23:24.640 --> 0:23:28.960 actually fits into the category of declaratory judgment and whether 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:32.440 it fits into the category of advisory opinions. What he's 0:23:32.520 --> 0:23:37.480 doing is he is intentionally and I don't blame him 0:23:37.520 --> 0:23:40.000 for this in terms of the mindset going to a 0:23:40.000 --> 0:23:43.600 favorable court what's called forum shopping. There's little doubt in 0:23:43.600 --> 0:23:46.919 my mind that this judge will find in favor of Trump, 0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:48.600 and we'll go to the Fifth Circuit and the Fifth 0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:50.919 Circuit will find in favor of Trump. And where does 0:23:50.960 --> 0:23:53.080 that leave you the Supreme Court if it decides to 0:23:53.119 --> 0:23:53.760 take the case. 0:23:54.400 --> 0:23:57.520 Coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show, the Union 0:23:57.680 --> 0:24:02.440 Sue one in California and one in DC. I'm June 0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:06.840 Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg. The Trump administration is 0:24:06.920 --> 0:24:11.400 moving to invalidate contracts between a swamp of US government 0:24:11.480 --> 0:24:16.840 agencies and the two largest unions representing federal workers, claiming 0:24:16.840 --> 0:24:20.800 that the collective bargaining agreements are impeding efforts to reform 0:24:20.840 --> 0:24:25.119 the government and pose a threat to national security. The 0:24:25.280 --> 0:24:29.000 unions are fighting back in court, suing the Trump administration 0:24:29.520 --> 0:24:33.560 saying it violated the Constitution with its anti union directive, 0:24:34.040 --> 0:24:38.400 including violating its free speech and due process rights. I've 0:24:38.400 --> 0:24:41.439 been talking to Professor Ann Lafasso of the University of 0:24:41.480 --> 0:24:44.800