Speaker 1: It could happen. Here is the podcast you're listening to
Speaker 1: with your ears or perhaps other parts of your body
Speaker 1: if you have, I don't know, some bizarre form of
Speaker 1: synesthesia that causes you to taste sound. Um, maybe you're
Speaker 1: tasting us right now, in which case, UM, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: open up the flavor bouquet by introducing my co host
Speaker 1: Garrison UM, and our guest for today. Why don't you
Speaker 1: take over now, Garrison, I've done my job great. That
Speaker 1: sounds lovely. Yeah, hey Garrison, here could happen. Here is
Speaker 1: the podcast. We have a special guest today, UH journalisten
Speaker 1: researcher W. F. Thomas. Hello, Hello, it's so good to
Speaker 1: be here on Behind the Woman's Revolution the Police Insurrection Daily.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you lovely to have you. Um. A
Speaker 1: lot of people say Garrison's voice tastes like surbet, by
Speaker 1: the way, it's a comment. We get a lot a lot,
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of a lot of those
Speaker 1: d M s. Um, you surprised, not that. Um. So
Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about something I've wanted to actually
Speaker 1: bring up myself for a while now, but I just
Speaker 1: have not put it the work in and now Luckily
Speaker 1: someone else did the actual work, so we now we
Speaker 1: could just talk about it. We're talking about something called
Speaker 1: disclosed TV UM, which is a broad range of things.
Speaker 1: It's not it's not just one thing. Uh, And I
Speaker 1: guess I'll hand it over to the person who do
Speaker 1: the actual work in terms of like how how would
Speaker 1: you describe what disclosed TV is? But but like before
Speaker 1: we get into like the journey of the platform and
Speaker 1: thing like what like what is it? Yeah, UM, let
Speaker 1: me start this off by saying, I've already before the
Speaker 1: publication of the article been publicly threatened vaguely with legal
Speaker 1: action from Disclosed TV, so that will be largely informing
Speaker 1: what I say today. But we do have a lot
Speaker 1: of receipts. UM, we have very scary lawyers here. So
Speaker 1: I'm i'm, i'm I'm excited whatever happens, So feel free
Speaker 1: to say whatever you want to say. But UM, Disclosed
Speaker 1: TV markets itself and presents itself as a news aggregator
Speaker 1: UM operating Twitter, UM Telegram, gab getter. They have a
Speaker 1: Facebook as well as well as the main site where
Speaker 1: they host what one could describe as articles as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think disclosed TV for our purposes, despite like
Speaker 1: they have a very large Facebook presence UM, but the
Speaker 1: way that we usually interact with them specifically like me
Speaker 1: and Robert and then other people who are like journalists
Speaker 1: storage to anti fascist researchers, usually we interact with disclosed
Speaker 1: TV on Telegram or through Twitter um Twitter through like
Speaker 1: it's how they like break a lot of current events
Speaker 1: in like a like you know, a lot of like
Speaker 1: political figures talk about them is is Twitter um and
Speaker 1: then Telegram is where they really disseminate these out into
Speaker 1: more obscure groups and maybe they change their wording because
Speaker 1: they know the audience is a little bit different and
Speaker 1: they've been a vector of information for a while. Really
Speaker 1: really with the protests, they kind of picked up a
Speaker 1: lot of there they were everywhere in terms of like
Speaker 1: saying specific things, not doing sourcing UM and just having
Speaker 1: like basically they are a place where they kind of
Speaker 1: create what then they try to create what the news
Speaker 1: is because of how isolated they are from the sources
Speaker 1: that they actually pull info from, and they're very they're
Speaker 1: very interested in kind of crafting their own version of
Speaker 1: events UM which appeals to people across the spectrum. Like
Speaker 1: they don't just market towards the far right wing. Sometimes
Speaker 1: they frame things to kind of attract of a variety
Speaker 1: of people on like the under the Street extremist banner.
Speaker 1: Let's say. Um, so, you know, you don't just see
Speaker 1: them in far right circles. You see discloses pop up
Speaker 1: in a lot of places because of the way they
Speaker 1: framed news and breaking events. UM. But they didn't always
Speaker 1: start out like this. This isn't what they always were.
Speaker 1: They weren't always this kind of content aggregator that creates
Speaker 1: their version of news. UM. And Thomas did more research
Speaker 1: into what they were before, which I actually had not
Speaker 1: done that research yet. UM. So yeah, let's uh, let's
Speaker 1: talk about that a little bit. Yeah. So I'm gonna
Speaker 1: start off with talking about how I first heard about disclosed. UM. So.
Speaker 1: I was living in Germany when the pandemic hit UM
Speaker 1: and got COVID first wave in Germany in the March. UM.
Speaker 1: Luckily I was totally asymptomatic. UM, but I was kind
Speaker 1: of stranded in Germany for a couple of weeks UM
Speaker 1: and how to isolate in a vacation rental uh and
Speaker 1: the Bavarian man who owned it just kept coming in
Speaker 1: talking to me and I would tell him, Hey, it's
Speaker 1: probably not the best idea for you to be coming
Speaker 1: by and chatting with me all the time. And now
Speaker 1: he got into talking, and we're talking in German. He
Speaker 1: got we got into talking about the pandemic, what he
Speaker 1: thought about it, and he started talking about how he thought, Oh,
Speaker 1: the government's making this seem way worse than it is.
Speaker 1: You know, the deep state if you know anything about that,
Speaker 1: and he and he said deep state in English. Um.
Speaker 1: And I was familiar with German far right currents at
Speaker 1: that time. Um, but I had never encountered a pilled
Speaker 1: German dude. And that's when I realized this is gonna
Speaker 1: be a fucking problem. Yeah. Yeah, and and it lo
Speaker 1: and behold, it has continued to be a problem. So
Speaker 1: as I got back to the U S. And and
Speaker 1: the other thing when I was in Germany is the
Speaker 1: first time I toounded I encountered telegram. Um. When a
Speaker 1: German I knew said hey, I I just don't trust
Speaker 1: WhatsApp because it's on by Facebook. Why don't you download
Speaker 1: telegram in two thousand nineteen, I think, um, and and
Speaker 1: it was pretty innocuous to me at the time. I
Speaker 1: didn't realize this would become a problem. Yeah, fast forward, UM.
Speaker 1: I was working on my master's project, which UM you
Speaker 1: can talk about more later on because it's kind of
Speaker 1: besides the point, UM if you don't want to hear
Speaker 1: about it, But looking at Telegram as the cultic milieu UM,
Speaker 1: using Colin Campbell's framework of the cultic milieu UM to
Speaker 1: understand specifically how qan on spread in Germany and how
Speaker 1: Q and on interacted with these native underlying conspiracy narratives
Speaker 1: within Germany. UM. Because Telegram is already massively popular in
Speaker 1: Germany before after j six, I think of the band
Speaker 1: wave came down and there was much more migration to
Speaker 1: the platform. So you know, I did the social network
Speaker 1: analysis looking at the conspirat German conspiracy is seen on
Speaker 1: Telegram and one of the biggest notes that came up,
Speaker 1: and I looking at a number of times shared into
Speaker 1: other groups or channels was disclosed tv UM and that's
Speaker 1: the first time I came into it. I look through
Speaker 1: it and realized, okay, they there is an editorial stance
Speaker 1: within this UM, and that editorial stance largely attracts conspiracists
Speaker 1: and far right extremists to this coverage and too you
Speaker 1: know this is widely shared among conspiracists and far right extremists. UM.
Speaker 1: Fast forward. UM. I'm on Twitter, as many of us are, unfortunately, UM,
Speaker 1: and I saw Disclosed TV just popping up everywhere, UM,
Speaker 1: even from people who who I would think should know better. Yeah,
Speaker 1: absolutely are you know big extremism researchers and journalists UM
Speaker 1: shared it. I remember there one specific one that really
Speaker 1: came across my feed. UM disclosed had had taken a
Speaker 1: video from like the Blaze, Glennbex whatever, the Empire whatever,
Speaker 1: UM about the firefighters who were quitting over vaccine mandate
Speaker 1: or something and had all of their boots or whatever.
Speaker 1: And I saw, yeah, lots of people sharing that as well. UM.
Speaker 1: And eventually I got tired of saying, hey, this should
Speaker 1: is suspect, don't share it UM, and decided to write
Speaker 1: an article about it so I could just send my
Speaker 1: article to people. And it's really interesting what I found. UM.
Speaker 1: Disclosed tv started off in the mid two thousand's as
Speaker 1: just this forum for UFOs, paranormal stuff, cryptids, bigfoot sightings,
Speaker 1: and existed in largely the same format until two thousand
Speaker 1: and twenty one. UM. There were some shifts in in
Speaker 1: the way the site presented itself. Um, it was. It
Speaker 1: started off as a member loggin where member could write
Speaker 1: articles that were largely long form forum posts and then
Speaker 1: have people comment on them and reply. Um. And at
Speaker 1: one point Disclosed made the jump to functioning as a
Speaker 1: news aggregator while including an editorial spin on that and
Speaker 1: including some of their own articles. Do you want me
Speaker 1: to get more into that now, Yeah, because yeah, because
Speaker 1: like the shift was was it wasn't like immediate as well, right,
Speaker 1: Like they were starting to kind of present themselves in
Speaker 1: more of a news gathering way, you know, around the
Speaker 1: late of course, during this became a big thing in
Speaker 1: terms of their social media presence. Um, they were trying
Speaker 1: to present themselves as like a news aggregator, right, but
Speaker 1: they still operated that. But they still operated the forum
Speaker 1: on their site throughout most of that time. And it's
Speaker 1: only until recently where they shut that forum down. Um,
Speaker 1: which was you know, full of full of all kinds
Speaker 1: of conspiratorial nonsense. It's very easy to see passed for
Speaker 1: most people, uh, secret you know, secret Arctic ship, which
Speaker 1: is yeah, it's always that's usually Yeah, even going to
Speaker 1: get stuff like watch this s j W get wrecked,
Speaker 1: which which is not a quotation, but just that kind
Speaker 1: of vibe, that style of content. Yeah, going from the
Speaker 1: forum operating than what they know their social media accounts
Speaker 1: to the shift this more of like presenting as a
Speaker 1: news website. Talking about that and the potential effects that
Speaker 1: we see this having on both like the social media
Speaker 1: sites and just the overall trend of news aggregation in general,
Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah. So the first big shift that I
Speaker 1: found UM was the creation of their Telegram channel, which
Speaker 1: is in January of one actually, so this is relatively
Speaker 1: more recent than Yeah, if that happened UM, and they
Speaker 1: operated their Telegram as a UM as more in this
Speaker 1: traditional news aggregator since and so that's how they really
Speaker 1: blew up on Telegram. At some point they deleted all
Speaker 1: of their old tweets UM and started operating their Twitter
Speaker 1: in a similar manner. It was after they created this
Speaker 1: telegram channel UM in September, actually overnight on septemb they
Speaker 1: completely re rebranded the site. They took out all the
Speaker 1: user forums UM, they included backdated articles to a year
Speaker 1: prior UM, and looking looking through archives of it, there
Speaker 1: was a note saying something along the lines of we
Speaker 1: have found so much growth on our social media are
Speaker 1: growing Telegram channel, are growing Twitter account UM, and something
Speaker 1: to the effect of we we are changing our strategy
Speaker 1: and going about this a different way. UM. And you
Speaker 1: can if you were into the forum, you can join
Speaker 1: our discord UM which is defunct and I'll get I'll
Speaker 1: get into that later. UM. And yeah, looking it was
Speaker 1: really interesting too because looking at these backdated articles UM,
Speaker 1: they included very obviously plagiarized content. UM. They had I
Speaker 1: believe it's it's all in the article, but they had
Speaker 1: four journalists UM names attached with the article using um
Speaker 1: AI generated images for their pictures. UM. And the especially
Speaker 1: the articles that they themselves published UM were very focused
Speaker 1: on UFOs paranormal paranormal phenomenon UM, as well as content
Speaker 1: that could cause skepticism within an audience, UM about vaccines
Speaker 1: and lockdowns. And I do not know the intent of
Speaker 1: U their editorial board, and so I cannot speak on that,
Speaker 1: but of course it generated this effect. Yes, that is,
Speaker 1: they found a way of creating content which develops a
Speaker 1: very specific audience, which grew their numbers, which made them,
Speaker 1: you know what one could assume would make them want
Speaker 1: to make more of that content. Because that makes more
Speaker 1: numbers than they can UM use that to grow their platform. UM. Yeah,
Speaker 1: specifically leading up like after after January UM ramping up
Speaker 1: one of the vaccines were coming more and more common
Speaker 1: in the States and that across the world. UM. They
Speaker 1: have seen a pretty significant growth and have changed their
Speaker 1: platform accordingly exactly. UM. So we began looking into who
Speaker 1: the who the fun owns this, what's going on with
Speaker 1: this UM. Like all German companies UM, and it is
Speaker 1: based in Germany, there's a requirement by law to include
Speaker 1: an imprint or an impress them that includes an address
Speaker 1: UM contact information for the site UM. There in the
Speaker 1: company that owns it UM a company called Future Bites
Speaker 1: operates disclosed tv UM, which describes itself as a private
Speaker 1: equity firm and media group. UM and looking into the
Speaker 1: ownership behind Future Bites is a man by the name
Speaker 1: of Uva Brown who has a pretty interesting backstory. He's hosted,
Speaker 1: he's He's made numerous web hosting sites. UM. I believe
Speaker 1: he created some dating sites as well, but but my
Speaker 1: research was not conclusive, so that's a maybe. UM. But
Speaker 1: eventually he sold. He had his most success when he
Speaker 1: sold one of his web hosting sites to go Daddy
Speaker 1: for a lot of money, and along the way, in
Speaker 1: his own as he described, booked a flight on virgin
Speaker 1: to go into space and see for himself if the earth,
Speaker 1: if the Earth was flat. Oh my god, awesome cool
Speaker 1: that that, this is great? Thank you. Yeah. So this
Speaker 1: this is who we're dealing with, um. Sweet. And the
Speaker 1: thing about Disclosed being based in Germany, UM, that that
Speaker 1: becomes an issue, UM, is that Germany has a very
Speaker 1: different uh look at free speech than in the US. UM.
Speaker 1: For example, even online displaying swastikas UM and denying the
Speaker 1: Holocaust is legal and is a prosecutable crime. They can
Speaker 1: get you jail time. UM. So as we explored as
Speaker 1: I mostly and UM, there's additional reporting from Berni Piper
Speaker 1: and I'll talk a bit more about that later explored
Speaker 1: the discord and their telegram. We realized, Hum, it seems
Speaker 1: to be a lot of Nazis here, and by which
Speaker 1: when I say seems to be a lot of Nazis,
Speaker 1: I mean people with swastikas in their profile builds, UM
Speaker 1: with you know, names, referencing the Holocaust with the whispers
Speaker 1: parentheses um, and saying denying that the hologast Happened UM,
Speaker 1: and also sharing the neo Nazi, famous neo Nazi, infamous
Speaker 1: new Nazi propaganda film Europa The Last Battle UM, which
Speaker 1: was shared by prominent q and On influencer ghost Ezra. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I know. UM, oh man, this this came up a
Speaker 1: few days ago. One of the one of the channels
Speaker 1: that me and someone else have been watching, UH forwarded
Speaker 1: me it being that that that film being shared at
Speaker 1: the it was it was it was that the the
Speaker 1: Free Oregon Telegram channel was sharing links to that and
Speaker 1: I wonder I would I would like to track back
Speaker 1: where that link came from. UM. Yeah. Not not great
Speaker 1: seeing that film circulate more and more, especially among like
Speaker 1: you know, the free organ Telegram channels, you know, like
Speaker 1: Anti mask, Anti backs, Anti Lockdown channel. Yeah, and seeing
Speaker 1: the percoloration of that type of content. Yeah. So and
Speaker 1: prepare for this article UM. With the help of of
Speaker 1: the Logically editorial team, I'm a freelancer UM, their current
Speaker 1: head of content, Ernie Piper UM sent an email basically asking, hey,
Speaker 1: what's going on. You all seem to have a Nazi
Speaker 1: problem that's kind of borderline illegal in Germany, UM, to
Speaker 1: which for a while this for for about twenty four
Speaker 1: hours as closed, just went totally quiet and didn't post
Speaker 1: Um and then came out with a post specifically targeting
Speaker 1: Ernie Um by name him and with a picture of
Speaker 1: him and linking to some of his old reporting work
Speaker 1: as well, Um saying yes, Uva Brown owns this. He
Speaker 1: got his money from Go daddy. You know, we value
Speaker 1: free speech and we condemn hatred whatnot, and and saying, oh,
Speaker 1: our telegram we have a tell there's a telegram group,
Speaker 1: but we have these rules in it, and h okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: we we had to shut down the discord that got
Speaker 1: a little bit out of hand. We admit that. You know,
Speaker 1: they had people denying the Holocaust with swastka icons in
Speaker 1: their discord that they didn't seem to care too much
Speaker 1: about until someone pointed it out. Um. And you know
Speaker 1: there's there was additionally very explicit neo Nazi content in
Speaker 1: their telegram channel as well, with the excuse, oh well,
Speaker 1: we're a glowing growing platform. We we can't moderate everything.
Speaker 1: Is well they have They just crossed four hundred thousand
Speaker 1: in their telegram channel and I think about thirty thousand
Speaker 1: and their telegram group UM, which is frankly bullshit. Yeah
Speaker 1: that is if if my personal opinion is that if
Speaker 1: you cannot don't have the resources to moderate this space,
Speaker 1: you probably shouldn't space the space. Um. And and additionally confirming, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: we we when we made our new version of the site. Yes,
Speaker 1: we backdated some articles from previous user generated content that
Speaker 1: we you know, didn't vet properly. We're trying to fix
Speaker 1: that now they removed some of those articles. Um. And
Speaker 1: that yeah, we none of the people who who are
Speaker 1: the authors of our articles are real people and they're
Speaker 1: all pen names. Um. You know. They also have or
Speaker 1: at least had a tab on their website that said
Speaker 1: right for us and looking for people to send them
Speaker 1: things and saying you know, well we will disclose your
Speaker 1: bio and link to all your social media if you
Speaker 1: write a story for us. And they're there was zero
Speaker 1: of that happening as well. So do you think that,
Speaker 1: I know, like on the rules for their telegram they
Speaker 1: have the no Nazi stuff rule. Um. Do you think
Speaker 1: they're actually trying to discourage that because they're scared of
Speaker 1: legal stuff or is that just presentorary and they I
Speaker 1: guess you know, this is just going into speculations. So
Speaker 1: I think this might be more a question for even
Speaker 1: Robert Um in terms of yeah, like is the anti
Speaker 1: Nazi stuff presentorary? And because it does seem to be
Speaker 1: a lot of their user base is fostering that type
Speaker 1: of thing or is you know being moved over from
Speaker 1: other similar channels? Um? Because yeah, like a lot of
Speaker 1: like the amount that we see disclose, like you know,
Speaker 1: intercept with channels like you know, the Rise above Him
Speaker 1: the channel, UM, and a whole bunch of like eco
Speaker 1: fascist channels, and a whole bunch of channels you know
Speaker 1: on a like a broad range of like actual like
Speaker 1: fascist topics, like people who are like into fascist theory.
Speaker 1: Um is quite high the like the amount that disclosed
Speaker 1: shows up. Um. And I don't know, like you could
Speaker 1: look at all their stuff saying I mean, like yeah
Speaker 1: on on the their rule page saying no Nazi bullshit. Um.
Speaker 1: But then if you spend any amount of time looking
Speaker 1: at at where they're posts are forwarded, it's almost primarily
Speaker 1: people who are self describe themselves as fascists. UM. So
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's hard to or Donald J. Trump Jr. Yes, Yes,
Speaker 1: it expands out into a lot of you know, just
Speaker 1: like you know, American journalists suits studying streamism could also
Speaker 1: share discloses stuff on Twitter, right, that is part of
Speaker 1: their thing is making that and you know that that
Speaker 1: does strengthen them because it gives them that legitimacy. So
Speaker 1: then when people point out that they have Nazi problem, like, no,
Speaker 1: that's not us, that's just some of our users who
Speaker 1: are trolling or you know whatever whatever bullshit they want
Speaker 1: to say. Um So I guess, like how I guess
Speaker 1: the real way to frame this is like how often
Speaker 1: have you seen Nazi stuff associated with the disclose with
Speaker 1: the Disclosed TV brand? Because that's the one thing we
Speaker 1: actually can measure, right, we can't measure their intentions, but
Speaker 1: we can't measure how often this stuff happens. Yeah, mean,
Speaker 1: that's always like the best way to measure that kind
Speaker 1: of thing, rather than just sort of like making the
Speaker 1: allegation listing like we find it in this many channels,
Speaker 1: we see it shared in these areas, it's being discussed
Speaker 1: by these people, and like like that that's I think
Speaker 1: always kind of how you actually build these these sort
Speaker 1: of networks is by looking at what is actually spreading
Speaker 1: where like that's that it is thankfully, something that you
Speaker 1: can measure pretty objectively, and like they are fostering it
Speaker 1: with the amount of stuff they talk about, like George Soros,
Speaker 1: and you know, the amount of stuff that they like.
Speaker 1: The way they frame breaking news is has that editorial
Speaker 1: bent where it's very clear that it's getting pushed in
Speaker 1: a specific direction like there's that is That is a
Speaker 1: thing that you can observe by reading the type of
Speaker 1: narratives they're weaving via how they report information. Um, the
Speaker 1: the topics that they choose to cover, our topics that
Speaker 1: reson very deeply with conspiracist and with far at extremist communities. UM.
Speaker 1: If I had to speculate, UM, I will say at
Speaker 1: least since the article has come out, Um, they've done
Speaker 1: a better job of moderating their telegram channel at least
Speaker 1: for now. So good job, disclosed, TV no one. You
Speaker 1: can't find links to Europe with the last battle there anymore.
Speaker 1: You can still find you can still find very rampant
Speaker 1: homophobia slurs um, because you know they didn't. They clearly
Speaker 1: auto blocked some words, but people can shorten them or
Speaker 1: use different spellings for those words to still be used
Speaker 1: in the channel. Um, there's still anti Semitic um coded
Speaker 1: anti Semitic references as well responding to something saying oive
Speaker 1: a for example, which is something that tends to be
Speaker 1: used by a lot of neo Nazis and anti Semites. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean even and if you do any amount of
Speaker 1: research on Telegram, you will you will find forward links
Speaker 1: forwarded links to this channel all everywhere, like if it's
Speaker 1: it is, it is so massive. The footprint that they
Speaker 1: have currently in the in like the the cycle of
Speaker 1: of forwarding posts specifically on Telegram UM and yeah, and
Speaker 1: they're they're getting a lot of traction on it because
Speaker 1: they have stuff framed in a way that's really easy
Speaker 1: for them to have those stuff like line up with
Speaker 1: the communities that promote those types of worldviews UM and
Speaker 1: promote the you know, the narratives that they want to foster.
Speaker 1: So let's see, let's have another quick break and then
Speaker 1: let's maybe talk about your big master's project, which is
Speaker 1: really interesting. Yeah, can I can? I can I do it? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I do this. You know you know what isn't telegram? Uh?
Speaker 1: Literally these ads unless we get an ad by Telegram,
Speaker 1: which we are primarily sponsored by the Duo Brothers UM.
Speaker 1: But that's for a separate project. My favorite at is
Speaker 1: the is the one where it's the kid playing and
Speaker 1: they find a gun. Oh yeah, that's my favorite. And
Speaker 1: oh we are thanks to great hope. Everybody enjoyed that
Speaker 1: kid finding a gun a kid firing it. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: there's one of my favorite tweets recently was like somebody,
Speaker 1: it was somebody like clipped a screen grab of news
Speaker 1: article that was like a toddler has shot someone every
Speaker 1: day in the United States for the last three years,
Speaker 1: and somebody quote tweeted and said, somebody fucking stop him.
Speaker 1: It's very good. Um. The last thing I want to
Speaker 1: talk about is just kind of why news aggregators are
Speaker 1: bad in the first place, and examples of which we've
Speaker 1: seen the past few years, and how they contribute to
Speaker 1: dis information specifically, and how they don't do sourcing for
Speaker 1: any claims and they try to make themselves a primary
Speaker 1: source even though they're not. UM. And then also would
Speaker 1: love to talk about your very fancy project. So yeah,
Speaker 1: we saw a lot of news aggregators that like during
Speaker 1: the protest, specifically that that spawned and killed many a
Speaker 1: news aggregator account UM, which did not help things very much. UM.
Speaker 1: And this is this is an issue that strikes across
Speaker 1: the political spectrum. Yes, I mean one of the biggest
Speaker 1: instances of that would be an account called and on
Speaker 1: cat right. That was the yeah um who you know
Speaker 1: marketed themselves towards the left wing UM. And I again,
Speaker 1: I don't know what their intentionality was. They may have
Speaker 1: had their heart in the right place. I have no idea,
Speaker 1: um and I'm not going to speculate on that right now.
Speaker 1: But the effect that they caused was damaging to how
Speaker 1: information is disseminated, specifically in high stress events. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: like for instance, the writtenhouse shooting, you know, like stuff
Speaker 1: like that, Uh, the big accounts, the demos around that
Speaker 1: before that, yeah, before that, yes, yeah, like the the
Speaker 1: in fostering that very fast paced unverified information circulation UM
Speaker 1: that gets you know a lot of retweets, it gets
Speaker 1: it gets a lot of eyeballs on it. But but
Speaker 1: it's hard. It makes it very hard to backtrack claims
Speaker 1: because they do not want to link to other accounts,
Speaker 1: because they're mostly interested in growing their own account. Um.
Speaker 1: So and I will say Disclose has gotten better about
Speaker 1: linking to the sources, even if the title and the
Speaker 1: tweet don't necessarily match what in the story they link to. Yeah,
Speaker 1: at least someone could take a different interpretation from the two. Yes, So,
Speaker 1: just like you know, news aggregation and the way it
Speaker 1: intersects with disinformation and misinformation, not just a problem for
Speaker 1: the far right, not just a problem for the right wing,
Speaker 1: just a problem for liberals, not just problem for leftist
Speaker 1: This is the thing that anyone, anyone can really grasp
Speaker 1: on to um. And some of it's accidental, some of
Speaker 1: it's intentional. Right, there's some some people might just do
Speaker 1: this kind of mindlessly, and some people may, you know,
Speaker 1: do this aggregation with a very specific intent in mind.
Speaker 1: So just be very careful whenever you have an account
Speaker 1: that always leads with all caps like breaking like news.
Speaker 1: Like if if you have an account that always does that,
Speaker 1: maybe maybe maybe don't take that account super seriously all
Speaker 1: the time. Maybe you should uh find other sources of
Speaker 1: info that don't always start the tweets with breaking news
Speaker 1: and all caps or advice to people if they do
Speaker 1: want something like that, find an actual news source. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's plenty of valid criticism to be made. Again, you
Speaker 1: know these mainstream media m s M centrist stuff from
Speaker 1: from you know, even from the left, there's there's criticism. Um,
Speaker 1: but you have to find some way of finding your
Speaker 1: own meaning and understanding of what is going on in
Speaker 1: the world around you. I think a CNN Reuters. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And on that point, I think that is part of
Speaker 1: why I think Disclosed can succeed and or like what
Speaker 1: they did can succeed, even like when I see stuff
Speaker 1: shared on the left, even by like anarchists, because it
Speaker 1: is a not mainstream media news source, the way they
Speaker 1: can frame things of sometimes rarely will match up with
Speaker 1: like an actual anarchist views and the like, Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: going to share it from this thing because it does
Speaker 1: feel like an underground you know source. It doesn't. It doesn't.
Speaker 1: It's not you're not sharing a scene an article, so
Speaker 1: you feel better because instead you're sharing something that is
Speaker 1: not in the mainstream. So like I get that, I
Speaker 1: get that pull to not something that genuous reading of
Speaker 1: a CNN article instead. Yeah, but instead of you're you know,
Speaker 1: it's not actually better, it's just marketing. They're just tricking
Speaker 1: you via esthetics and branding, and that's all that it is, right,
Speaker 1: So maybe you should learn learn to see past the
Speaker 1: marketing and branding of those types of things, and look
Speaker 1: at the actual content of what's being shared. What is
Speaker 1: the university project thing that has been taking up a
Speaker 1: lot of your time? Yeah, and um, so you're back
Speaker 1: in the U S. And I got interested, um, especially
Speaker 1: in looking at the spread of Q and on in Germany,
Speaker 1: and that you led me down this research path, um,
Speaker 1: and brought me especially to telegram um again before it
Speaker 1: was largely used in in right wing circles in the
Speaker 1: U S. Well, the the Nazis have have pretty regularly
Speaker 1: in the US, but on telegram as well. Um. But
Speaker 1: this led me to look at this and and um
Speaker 1: especially to to look at telegram the context of as
Speaker 1: I mentioned, Colin Campbell's concept of the cultic milieu, um,
Speaker 1: which I don't know if you'll have talked about that
Speaker 1: on this we have one behind subject of time, okay,
Speaker 1: but yeah, to give a quick summary, is is the
Speaker 1: concept that there is this space and when Colin Campbell
Speaker 1: wrote that, it was in I believe the seventies. So
Speaker 1: it was a physical space where people go to find
Speaker 1: these rejected narratives, you know, reject the idea of rejected knowledge,
Speaker 1: and they go to seek this kind of knowledge and
Speaker 1: and and these things. UM. So he's talking about things
Speaker 1: like UFO conferences or or meet ups, or or alternative bookstores,
Speaker 1: or perhaps maybe signing up at an institute to get
Speaker 1: a degree in metaphysics. Yeah, as a weirdly specific example,
Speaker 1: gear Yeah, sorry, does red red of thought? Yeah. Anyway,
Speaker 1: how's that going, by the way, Garrison, it's going good, good, Yeah.
Speaker 1: And and what you find is is people can very
Speaker 1: easily move between ideologies, UM. And as they move between
Speaker 1: ideologies concepts, specific schools, they cross pollinate these schools UM.
Speaker 1: And this is how you get these kind of highly
Speaker 1: syncretic movements like Q and on UM, like the modern
Speaker 1: conspiracy movement UM, which is incredibly syncretic, and UM some
Speaker 1: of the other really bad ones that are out there
Speaker 1: as well that combine these different views UM. Specifically, when
Speaker 1: you start when you start combining the type of like
Speaker 1: cultural mysticism with politics, often you can have very volatile results. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1: Can you think of any examples? I mean, in some ways,
Speaker 1: the modern eco fascist movement is built on a lot
Speaker 1: of this type of stuff, so that that would be
Speaker 1: the easiest one, would be the easiest one. The I
Speaker 1: think that the syncretism of because I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people have been surprised to see like you know,
Speaker 1: kind of like natural medicine and and what not subcultures
Speaker 1: and eight like alien subcultures kind of colliding with Q
Speaker 1: and on and and these like more like far right
Speaker 1: neo Nazi type groups, and the fact that there are
Speaker 1: all of these things that were associated for years kind
Speaker 1: of more with the left have been increasingly um pulled
Speaker 1: into this this sort of weather system of conspiratorial thinking
Speaker 1: has been surprising to a lot of people who don't
Speaker 1: understand this stuff. But it makes total sense if you
Speaker 1: if you have been paying attention to the scholarship on
Speaker 1: on what is actually like how cults sort of form
Speaker 1: like it's it's it's um. It's like a weather pattern
Speaker 1: that's been building for quite a while. There's a gravity
Speaker 1: to it that sucks um everything in together and it
Speaker 1: all kind of it's as you said, syncretic um. It's
Speaker 1: not to get into horsehoe through. But this is even
Speaker 1: how you get some of that crossover, right, Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was that was That was what I was just
Speaker 1: going to mention, is that even a lot of like
Speaker 1: the left wing authors or you know, post left wing
Speaker 1: authors who got into this like cultural mysticism. Um, you
Speaker 1: see their texts now getting shared by like like open fascists.
Speaker 1: Even though these authors were anti fascist, Um, they are
Speaker 1: able to still pick and choose what parts they're writing
Speaker 1: to appropriate because some of it can kind of synchronize
Speaker 1: at from opposite ends a very long time. Like if
Speaker 1: you we've we talked about in our Gabriel the Nunzio
Speaker 1: episodes Fume, which was this kind of like we're a
Speaker 1: large chunk of like the fascist intellectual movement got started,
Speaker 1: um in the post World War One period, but also
Speaker 1: there were like a ton of anarchists and a lot
Speaker 1: of like left wing um like thought leaders and whatnot.
Speaker 1: We're kind of all it was again kind of there
Speaker 1: there was this kind of like gravity center that pulled
Speaker 1: everything in and it all started churning together, and um,
Speaker 1: yeah we're we're we're we're seeing that happen now. Um
Speaker 1: and yeah it sucks. That's that's that's great. To jump
Speaker 1: back to, campl That's one of those examples of those
Speaker 1: physical space of the call and that Cal Campbell was
Speaker 1: talking about right, Um, where it's it's any place that
Speaker 1: ideas that are rejected by you know, the orthodox kind
Speaker 1: of the establishment. There is overlap, there is not necessarily
Speaker 1: ideological overlap. There is an interplay between them as people
Speaker 1: move between them and as these ideas come into collision
Speaker 1: with one another. Um, and with the Internet, right, whole
Speaker 1: different fucking ball game. Um yeah, because that space is
Speaker 1: now everywhere exactly and and telegram specifically has the specific
Speaker 1: affordances that make it ideal for having this soup of
Speaker 1: bullshit on it as well. Um. It's it's additionally one
Speaker 1: of and this may be changing. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: discussion going on about this, especially within the German government,
Speaker 1: who could actually they already have a lot that they
Speaker 1: could use to say, hey, you can't have Nazis on
Speaker 1: you can't have this Nazi ship in telegram. Um. But
Speaker 1: telegrams one of these last places where where things are
Speaker 1: largely allowed to spread without any kind of interruption, right, Um,
Speaker 1: which I do think you know you look at telegram
Speaker 1: is used in in um, the Hong Kong uprising as well,
Speaker 1: it was used for it was used in the George Yeah,
Speaker 1: that George Floyd uprising as well. Um. And it's the
Speaker 1: same things that people too at time is fake, um,
Speaker 1: bolish lane of your time. Um, but shooting your clock,
Speaker 1: shoot the fucking clock. But okay, said, let's get back
Speaker 1: to the topic. Yeah, but but but but drumming back
Speaker 1: into this, Telegram markets itself is this very secure platform.
Speaker 1: It's probably not right. It does have it's certainly not
Speaker 1: absolutely not. It does have it does have encrypted chats,
Speaker 1: but that's only for one to one messaging between people.
Speaker 1: And even then you need to go and make your
Speaker 1: the security settings right. And again, I I don't fully
Speaker 1: trust that. Yeah, I don't fully truy. I mean signal
Speaker 1: is about barely trust signal. Yeah, yeah, I trust conversations
Speaker 1: when everyone has put their phone inside a Faraday bag
Speaker 1: in a house and then we walked two miles into
Speaker 1: we walked two miles into the woods, then you can
Speaker 1: have a conversation. Yeah. Um, but Telegram market itself is
Speaker 1: a very secure app, right, um, which is which is
Speaker 1: largely marketing. You know, It's it's appeal is that it's
Speaker 1: not What's app, it's not owned by Facebook. It's probably
Speaker 1: worth acknowledging that for because it's also very popular with
Speaker 1: a lot of people in um, you know, parts of
Speaker 1: the global South and countries with authoritarian governments, and it
Speaker 1: is has been used for a lot of organizing and
Speaker 1: can be more secure and all more secure but also
Speaker 1: more able than what than any other tool people have
Speaker 1: access to. I mean in Syria, it's like it's again
Speaker 1: extremely common for like nay, like neighborhoods and towns will
Speaker 1: have like Telegram groups for this little village where they
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff gets done over Telegram in places
Speaker 1: like that, And telegram sits in this interesting space between
Speaker 1: social media. UM. It's not a full on social media site,
Speaker 1: but it's also not just a messaging app like telegrams
Speaker 1: to categorize it is an interesting sort of like in
Speaker 1: between type thing. Yeah, because you can have essentially unlimited
Speaker 1: I think the number is in the hundreds of thousands
Speaker 1: for how many people can join a group message UM
Speaker 1: on Telegram. And you also have these one way messaging
Speaker 1: thing called channels where where one person or group of
Speaker 1: people can send out messages that appear alongside everyone else's
Speaker 1: message feed as well. UM, and that can you can
Speaker 1: also enable comments on that UM, which will get into
Speaker 1: in a second UM. But but it's a great way
Speaker 1: to share information as well. And what I was specifically
Speaker 1: looking at is the forwarding of messages, because you you
Speaker 1: can forward a message from this one channel into whatever
Speaker 1: a group chat you're in, and it links back to
Speaker 1: that channel. And I was interested in saying, how far
Speaker 1: you know, what connections can we make from this? What
Speaker 1: kind of zigzagging can we find? Um enhancer is sucking
Speaker 1: a lot uh where where someone may may use telegram
Speaker 1: for for example, a neighborhood group message right, and then
Speaker 1: someone forwards the messages a message for this channel UM
Speaker 1: or for this other group message UM, where they talk about, oh,
Speaker 1: here's kind of helped practices to use. And then you
Speaker 1: get into the pseudo science of things crossing into further
Speaker 1: messages from what's forward forward groups and channels from what's
Speaker 1: forwarded into that group and channel, and so on so on,
Speaker 1: until you get to the neo nazis eventually UM. And
Speaker 1: it's also it is it is a concerted effort on
Speaker 1: the part of people pushing their ideology, who will go
Speaker 1: in the comments of these giant channels and say, hey,
Speaker 1: check out my channel. UM, what's not a real one?
Speaker 1: You know, areean cooking, which is probably a channel but
Speaker 1: it probably is. Yeah, great job checking. Sorry, but check
Speaker 1: out check out check out, check out this or whatever.
Speaker 1: And and especially when q and on moved on a
Speaker 1: lot of promoters. Um, there there was organized groups of
Speaker 1: of internet neo Nazis going on and trying to pill
Speaker 1: boomers into neo Nazism. And because of the because of
Speaker 1: the mesh like network of Telegram, they try to make
Speaker 1: those meshes connect via dissemination. Right you can, you know,
Speaker 1: people who are dedicated to these more esoteric groups can
Speaker 1: join more regular like Marga groups or qut on groups
Speaker 1: and start slowly bringing links to the start doing links
Speaker 1: and forwarding to the more extreme channels. Um. And eventually yeah,
Speaker 1: that does that does work. It can be a slow,
Speaker 1: careful process um, or it can be very fast and
Speaker 1: like bobastic And it'll depending on the said one of
Speaker 1: them will latch onto one one watch onto the other. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And and before the article came out, UM, what I
Speaker 1: did see was the specific thing of accounts that I
Speaker 1: would associate or or believe to be neo Nazi UM
Speaker 1: encouraging people to join their groups and channels UM in
Speaker 1: the in the telegram group message as well. And I
Speaker 1: cannot speak to what that looks like right now after
Speaker 1: the article has come out, yeah, and I've been trying
Speaker 1: to take a break from telegram for my day to
Speaker 1: day life, um and focus on reading actual books. So
Speaker 1: but yeah, that is how I can always tell when
Speaker 1: one of us has been spending time on telegram, because
Speaker 1: the things we consider jokes get much worse. Yeah. You
Speaker 1: remember when I found that playlist of Blink covers covers
Speaker 1: it was what there was like a hundred of them
Speaker 1: Blink or some full ship. Yeah, you always find you could,
Speaker 1: you could find the most fucked up stuff. Don't don't
Speaker 1: do it. Don't don't scrowl until do not. You're not
Speaker 1: going to get this isn't like coveting the stay. You
Speaker 1: don't need to be like it's it's not even it's
Speaker 1: not worth it, Like there's no sacred novit like knowledge
Speaker 1: that we're hiding. It's just it's it's just kind of sucks,
Speaker 1: like it just like it just to feel bad. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it just makes you feel worse about life and yourself
Speaker 1: and the people around you. So the scope for your
Speaker 1: master's project what it's kind of the what's the what's
Speaker 1: the deal with like tying these things together? I guess yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So so using this social network analysis to argue that
Speaker 1: the telegram does function as this could take Millie you um,
Speaker 1: which yeah, it seems seems to be. It seems to
Speaker 1: be the case. Yeah. Um. You know, and the question
Speaker 1: gets into what is the responsibility the platform? Right, um,
Speaker 1: because I fully believe there should be something at least
Speaker 1: similar to this. It has been used for you know,
Speaker 1: purposes along with my politics, in which I would call
Speaker 1: good and needed. Um. However, they've also allowed this fucking
Speaker 1: awful ecosystem to spread. It's it's interesting to see when
Speaker 1: Telegram has had to step in and they you know,
Speaker 1: they have pulled down some ices, accounts and channels. Um.
Speaker 1: And and they have down when I was in um
Speaker 1: Al Hall, which is that the camp where all the
Speaker 1: ISIS prisoners were in Syria. Like while Jake and I
Speaker 1: were in the camp, we could see on telegram like
Speaker 1: ISIS supporters and al hole talking about stabbing guards like
Speaker 1: in real time. It was not particularly Uh. They've done
Speaker 1: like a lot. There's less of it than there used
Speaker 1: to be, but it is still not hard to find
Speaker 1: ISIS on telegram. Yeah. And they they've taken down a
Speaker 1: few amounts of neo Nazi channels. Um. It's it's funny
Speaker 1: because oh god, maybe cut this. But they've taken on
Speaker 1: some of the your honesty channels when they've shared Ice
Speaker 1: as ship for example. Yeah, yeah, I think we're we've
Speaker 1: we're familiar with that line of thing. That's something we've
Speaker 1: mentioned before. Okay. There has been pressure from from the
Speaker 1: play Store and Google as well, or the play Store
Speaker 1: from Google and and the app store Apples, app Store
Speaker 1: from Apple to say we we aren't going to carry
Speaker 1: the app if you don't do just a tiny bit
Speaker 1: better essentially um which which which also it exists as
Speaker 1: a web client, um, both as as a web client
Speaker 1: and as a desktop app as well. UM. But that
Speaker 1: would you know, limits some of it. Um. So, So
Speaker 1: this has become largely discussed in the German in the
Speaker 1: German parment because there's a new UM, there's a new
Speaker 1: government in Germany, and and there is this history of
Speaker 1: Germany kind of is the lead for doing things about
Speaker 1: this digital content, especially within the EU. And and as
Speaker 1: I mentioned, there's already law call Adoptic Enforcement Act that
Speaker 1: requires platforms to take down content in Germany. Um. They
Speaker 1: could be implemented on telegram as well. There's already a law. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean This is like the thing why you know
Speaker 1: what I watch happen lots is you know, these channels
Speaker 1: will get shut down and they'll make a new one,
Speaker 1: and it will shut down that one and make a
Speaker 1: new one. Right. It's this You see this with like
Speaker 1: discord servers, telegram channels. It is kind of this endless cycle, um,
Speaker 1: and seeking an end to the cycle. It's always not
Speaker 1: as easy as what one would hope, UM, because of
Speaker 1: the cyclical nature of building these platforms and connections and
Speaker 1: how the people who run these you know, intersect and
Speaker 1: specifically with with telegrams. Really easy because channel get shut down,
Speaker 1: you're still part of twelve of their channels, and odds
Speaker 1: are one of those channels is going to afford you
Speaker 1: the link to the new channel that was that was lost. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And this is the thing you see where they send
Speaker 1: lists of channels within within extremest groups and channels, they
Speaker 1: will send out a list of here's other groups and
Speaker 1: channels to check out as well. Yeah, but I mean
Speaker 1: I would So that's something that's you know, hard for
Speaker 1: regular people to actually do. But something I think that
Speaker 1: people who do not own these platforms nor lawmakers can't
Speaker 1: think about is particularly the the cultic comulie you that
Speaker 1: does you know, go past regular left right divisions in
Speaker 1: terms of politics and how you know, symbol like symbology
Speaker 1: um and stuff that was you know initially you know,
Speaker 1: perhaps more anarchist or or left wing is being used
Speaker 1: by people on the right, and some people are really
Speaker 1: confused by that, and there is ways to there is
Speaker 1: ways to understand it, like it is, it does. I
Speaker 1: am very frustrated when I look at you know, people
Speaker 1: online who don't understand why Nazis can use ted K
Speaker 1: and right, it's like, yeah, like it's it's not it's
Speaker 1: it's not it's not what It's not not really about
Speaker 1: what ted K actually run. It's more the symbolic meme
Speaker 1: of ted K. And trying to you know, get that,
Speaker 1: get that line of thinking across is not the easiest
Speaker 1: thing because sometimes it will go in the other direction
Speaker 1: and be like, oh, ted K is a Nazi, which
Speaker 1: isn't accurate either, Like that's that's not also the most
Speaker 1: accurate thing to say, So it's it's the cultimalu framework
Speaker 1: of being. Yeah. Sometimes these symbols can cross over from
Speaker 1: one thing to another, and sometimes the action can be
Speaker 1: the same you know, both anarchists and like instructionary fascists
Speaker 1: both want to like attack like industrialization and attack points
Speaker 1: of industry, right, but maybe their ideologies are slightly different,
Speaker 1: sometimes in specific ways, so it's always a tricky thing
Speaker 1: to kind of navigate. UM. So I think in terms of,
Speaker 1: you know, people should think about what symbols they promote, uh,
Speaker 1: like publicly and stuff is a good thing, and think
Speaker 1: about news aggregation and how to maybe not not just
Speaker 1: share something because it's countercultural, trying to figure out what
Speaker 1: other what other types of narratives the sources spread. Um
Speaker 1: journalists support the work of real journalist because a bunch
Speaker 1: of kick asks people out there um who were doing
Speaker 1: awesome research and work. So I think that kind of
Speaker 1: wraps up the scope of what I want to talk
Speaker 1: about around Disclose specifically, because I mean, discloses a thing,
Speaker 1: but it's also like it's good as just like an
Speaker 1: example to like this overly this broader like phenomenon, I think, um,
Speaker 1: because like disclose won't be here forever, hopefully, like you know,
Speaker 1: hopefully in a few years. It's something that we can
Speaker 1: just like look back on and laugh about. Um. But
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's still a good signifier for a
Speaker 1: phenomenon that happens, and the phenomenon even even if disclose
Speaker 1: goes away, the phenomenon is still going to stay. Um,
Speaker 1: and it's important to point it out when you see
Speaker 1: whatever the next version of this is. So, And I'll
Speaker 1: also say that the culticnalu isn't necessarily a bad thing. Right,
Speaker 1: this is you know where where the stuff that is
Speaker 1: rejected by the orthodox goes and clearly eliminating right, any
Speaker 1: kind of culticnal you just means everything is exactly the
Speaker 1: fucking same, mean falls in line with or thoughts belief
Speaker 1: which I strongly disagree with as well. No, there's there
Speaker 1: is a way to be countercultural without being a conspiratorial fascist.
Speaker 1: I would say that most responsibility in which you were
Speaker 1: consuming and sharing, Yes, And I would say like most
Speaker 1: people who are actually counterculture are Yeah, like actual punk
Speaker 1: is that you know, once you're enforcing traditional hierarchical of
Speaker 1: viewpoints that that ain't punk. That is uh, that's playing
Speaker 1: into what the status quo was. That isn't that isn't revolutionary.
Speaker 1: Pistols would disagree with you, aren't they all? Yeah? But
Speaker 1: I think we can all agree that having living members
Speaker 1: of the sex Pistols was a mistake, and I would
Speaker 1: I prefer Alana Wachowski's version of punk to theirs anyway.
Speaker 1: So hey, who cares? UM? So thank you for your work, Thomas. UM.
Speaker 1: I would recommend people reach your article, UM, which you
Speaker 1: can do by googling disclosed TV and out it will
Speaker 1: be for me. It's the second result that pops up,
Speaker 1: So that's gool um. Send it to all your friends
Speaker 1: and mutuals who are sharing disclosed TV. UM. You can
Speaker 1: find it on logically dot Ai is the website and
Speaker 1: the full title of the article is Disclosed TV Conspiracy
Speaker 1: Forum turned disinformation Factory. Thank you, Thank you for that. UM.
Speaker 1: Do you want to direct people to your Twitter account
Speaker 1: or do you want to be a ghost that fades
Speaker 1: away in their memory? Uh? Just don't be fucking weird.
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at w underscore underscore Thomas,
Speaker 1: God damnit, Christ be weird. All right, I guess I'm
Speaker 1: keeping my account Lockford. UM. Yeah, I also want to
Speaker 1: shout out, um some of the local mutual aid or
Speaker 1: one of the local mutual aid groups in the town
Speaker 1: where I live or in the area where I lives.
Speaker 1: The Atlanta Justice Alliance. Their cash app is cash symbol
Speaker 1: a t L mutual fund and their Venmos a t
Speaker 1: L mutual fund. They're helping out. Um they they've done weekly,
Speaker 1: UM weekly provided food and resources for people, and how's
Speaker 1: people living in downtown Atlanta. UM and are a great group.
Speaker 1: And then also people want to give more money to things.
Speaker 1: Shout out Atlanta Solidary Fund, who have helped many of
Speaker 1: my friends get out of jail after they were arrested
Speaker 1: in protests. And also you can hire me, yes if
Speaker 1: you researchers, Yes you can. You can't. You can't hire
Speaker 1: Thomas if you want. I mean, I've I've I've I've
Speaker 1: known Thomas for a bit. Um they do really good work. UM. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're very They're very they're in my experience, they're very
Speaker 1: careful researcher. They will not say things without thinking about
Speaker 1: them a lot first, which is always great in the researcher,
Speaker 1: or at least not publicly send them money and off
Speaker 1: put in comments. An even mix of money and really
Speaker 1: off putting Twitter comments. One more shout out to my
Speaker 1: One more shout out to my friends at Terrorism Bad Pod,
Speaker 1: which you should listen to and is on Twitter terrorism
Speaker 1: bad pod Well, that doesn't for us today. If you,
Speaker 1: for some reason are on social media and you want
Speaker 1: to follow us, you can follow us at cool zone
Speaker 1: Media or hassolutely don't do or happen here pod um.
Speaker 1: You can follow Robert Evans at I Write Okay, send
Speaker 1: him weird messages, do not do that, and you can
Speaker 1: send me weird messages at creep time all right, Garrison,
Speaker 1: pictures of salads that you make, and keep keep doing
Speaker 1: that for like five or six years, to the point
Speaker 1: that it actually becomes funny, because it's going to take
Speaker 1: a while. I'm just happy that people stop sending me
Speaker 1: meal porn. So that's honestly, that's a wind. That one's
Speaker 1: on you though, A good find everybody. It could Happen
Speaker 1: Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more
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Speaker 1: for listening.