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Speaker 1: It could happen. Here is the podcast you're listening to

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Speaker 1: with your ears or perhaps other parts of your body

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Speaker 1: if you have, I don't know, some bizarre form of

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Speaker 1: synesthesia that causes you to taste sound. Um, maybe you're

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Speaker 1: tasting us right now, in which case, UM, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: open up the flavor bouquet by introducing my co host

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Speaker 1: Garrison UM, and our guest for today. Why don't you

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Speaker 1: take over now, Garrison, I've done my job great. That

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Speaker 1: sounds lovely. Yeah, hey Garrison, here could happen. Here is

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Speaker 1: the podcast. We have a special guest today, UH journalisten

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Speaker 1: researcher W. F. Thomas. Hello, Hello, it's so good to

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Speaker 1: be here on Behind the Woman's Revolution the Police Insurrection Daily.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you lovely to have you. Um. A

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Speaker 1: lot of people say Garrison's voice tastes like surbet, by

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Speaker 1: the way, it's a comment. We get a lot a lot,

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Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of a lot of those

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Speaker 1: d M s. Um, you surprised, not that. Um. So

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about something I've wanted to actually

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Speaker 1: bring up myself for a while now, but I just

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Speaker 1: have not put it the work in and now Luckily

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Speaker 1: someone else did the actual work, so we now we

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Speaker 1: could just talk about it. We're talking about something called

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Speaker 1: disclosed TV UM, which is a broad range of things.

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Speaker 1: It's not it's not just one thing. Uh, And I

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Speaker 1: guess I'll hand it over to the person who do

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Speaker 1: the actual work in terms of like how how would

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Speaker 1: you describe what disclosed TV is? But but like before

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Speaker 1: we get into like the journey of the platform and

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Speaker 1: thing like what like what is it? Yeah, UM, let

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Speaker 1: me start this off by saying, I've already before the

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Speaker 1: publication of the article been publicly threatened vaguely with legal

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Speaker 1: action from Disclosed TV, so that will be largely informing

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Speaker 1: what I say today. But we do have a lot

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Speaker 1: of receipts. UM, we have very scary lawyers here. So

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Speaker 1: I'm i'm, i'm I'm excited whatever happens, So feel free

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Speaker 1: to say whatever you want to say. But UM, Disclosed

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Speaker 1: TV markets itself and presents itself as a news aggregator

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Speaker 1: UM operating Twitter, UM Telegram, gab getter. They have a

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Speaker 1: Facebook as well as well as the main site where

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Speaker 1: they host what one could describe as articles as well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I think disclosed TV for our purposes, despite like

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Speaker 1: they have a very large Facebook presence UM, but the

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Speaker 1: way that we usually interact with them specifically like me

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Speaker 1: and Robert and then other people who are like journalists

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Speaker 1: storage to anti fascist researchers, usually we interact with disclosed

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Speaker 1: TV on Telegram or through Twitter um Twitter through like

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Speaker 1: it's how they like break a lot of current events

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Speaker 1: in like a like you know, a lot of like

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Speaker 1: political figures talk about them is is Twitter um and

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Speaker 1: then Telegram is where they really disseminate these out into

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Speaker 1: more obscure groups and maybe they change their wording because

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Speaker 1: they know the audience is a little bit different and

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Speaker 1: they've been a vector of information for a while. Really

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Speaker 1: really with the protests, they kind of picked up a

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Speaker 1: lot of there they were everywhere in terms of like

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Speaker 1: saying specific things, not doing sourcing UM and just having

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Speaker 1: like basically they are a place where they kind of

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Speaker 1: create what then they try to create what the news

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Speaker 1: is because of how isolated they are from the sources

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Speaker 1: that they actually pull info from, and they're very they're

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Speaker 1: very interested in kind of crafting their own version of

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Speaker 1: events UM which appeals to people across the spectrum. Like

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Speaker 1: they don't just market towards the far right wing. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: they frame things to kind of attract of a variety

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Speaker 1: of people on like the under the Street extremist banner.

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Speaker 1: Let's say. Um, so, you know, you don't just see

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Speaker 1: them in far right circles. You see discloses pop up

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Speaker 1: in a lot of places because of the way they

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Speaker 1: framed news and breaking events. UM. But they didn't always

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Speaker 1: start out like this. This isn't what they always were.

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Speaker 1: They weren't always this kind of content aggregator that creates

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Speaker 1: their version of news. UM. And Thomas did more research

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Speaker 1: into what they were before, which I actually had not

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Speaker 1: done that research yet. UM. So yeah, let's uh, let's

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Speaker 1: talk about that a little bit. Yeah. So I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: start off with talking about how I first heard about disclosed. UM. So.

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Speaker 1: I was living in Germany when the pandemic hit UM

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Speaker 1: and got COVID first wave in Germany in the March. UM.

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Speaker 1: Luckily I was totally asymptomatic. UM, but I was kind

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Speaker 1: of stranded in Germany for a couple of weeks UM

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Speaker 1: and how to isolate in a vacation rental uh and

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Speaker 1: the Bavarian man who owned it just kept coming in

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Speaker 1: talking to me and I would tell him, Hey, it's

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Speaker 1: probably not the best idea for you to be coming

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Speaker 1: by and chatting with me all the time. And now

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Speaker 1: he got into talking, and we're talking in German. He

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Speaker 1: got we got into talking about the pandemic, what he

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Speaker 1: thought about it, and he started talking about how he thought, Oh,

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Speaker 1: the government's making this seem way worse than it is.

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Speaker 1: You know, the deep state if you know anything about that,

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Speaker 1: and he and he said deep state in English. Um.

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Speaker 1: And I was familiar with German far right currents at

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Speaker 1: that time. Um, but I had never encountered a pilled

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Speaker 1: German dude. And that's when I realized this is gonna

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Speaker 1: be a fucking problem. Yeah. Yeah, and and it lo

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Speaker 1: and behold, it has continued to be a problem. So

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Speaker 1: as I got back to the U S. And and

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Speaker 1: the other thing when I was in Germany is the

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Speaker 1: first time I toounded I encountered telegram. Um. When a

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Speaker 1: German I knew said hey, I I just don't trust

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Speaker 1: WhatsApp because it's on by Facebook. Why don't you download

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Speaker 1: telegram in two thousand nineteen, I think, um, and and

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Speaker 1: it was pretty innocuous to me at the time. I

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Speaker 1: didn't realize this would become a problem. Yeah, fast forward, UM.

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Speaker 1: I was working on my master's project, which UM you

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Speaker 1: can talk about more later on because it's kind of

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Speaker 1: besides the point, UM if you don't want to hear

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Speaker 1: about it, But looking at Telegram as the cultic milieu UM,

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Speaker 1: using Colin Campbell's framework of the cultic milieu UM to

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Speaker 1: understand specifically how qan on spread in Germany and how

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Speaker 1: Q and on interacted with these native underlying conspiracy narratives

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Speaker 1: within Germany. UM. Because Telegram is already massively popular in

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Speaker 1: Germany before after j six, I think of the band

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Speaker 1: wave came down and there was much more migration to

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Speaker 1: the platform. So you know, I did the social network

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Speaker 1: analysis looking at the conspirat German conspiracy is seen on

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Speaker 1: Telegram and one of the biggest notes that came up,

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Speaker 1: and I looking at a number of times shared into

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Speaker 1: other groups or channels was disclosed tv UM and that's

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Speaker 1: the first time I came into it. I look through

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Speaker 1: it and realized, okay, they there is an editorial stance

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Speaker 1: within this UM, and that editorial stance largely attracts conspiracists

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Speaker 1: and far right extremists to this coverage and too you

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Speaker 1: know this is widely shared among conspiracists and far right extremists. UM.

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Speaker 1: Fast forward. UM. I'm on Twitter, as many of us are, unfortunately, UM,

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Speaker 1: and I saw Disclosed TV just popping up everywhere, UM,

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Speaker 1: even from people who who I would think should know better. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: absolutely are you know big extremism researchers and journalists UM

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Speaker 1: shared it. I remember there one specific one that really

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Speaker 1: came across my feed. UM disclosed had had taken a

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Speaker 1: video from like the Blaze, Glennbex whatever, the Empire whatever,

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Speaker 1: UM about the firefighters who were quitting over vaccine mandate

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Speaker 1: or something and had all of their boots or whatever.

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Speaker 1: And I saw, yeah, lots of people sharing that as well. UM.

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Speaker 1: And eventually I got tired of saying, hey, this should

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Speaker 1: is suspect, don't share it UM, and decided to write

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Speaker 1: an article about it so I could just send my

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Speaker 1: article to people. And it's really interesting what I found. UM.

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Speaker 1: Disclosed tv started off in the mid two thousand's as

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Speaker 1: just this forum for UFOs, paranormal stuff, cryptids, bigfoot sightings,

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Speaker 1: and existed in largely the same format until two thousand

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Speaker 1: and twenty one. UM. There were some shifts in in

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Speaker 1: the way the site presented itself. Um, it was. It

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Speaker 1: started off as a member loggin where member could write

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Speaker 1: articles that were largely long form forum posts and then

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Speaker 1: have people comment on them and reply. Um. And at

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Speaker 1: one point Disclosed made the jump to functioning as a

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Speaker 1: news aggregator while including an editorial spin on that and

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Speaker 1: including some of their own articles. Do you want me

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Speaker 1: to get more into that now, Yeah, because yeah, because

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Speaker 1: like the shift was was it wasn't like immediate as well, right,

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Speaker 1: Like they were starting to kind of present themselves in

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Speaker 1: more of a news gathering way, you know, around the

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Speaker 1: late of course, during this became a big thing in

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Speaker 1: terms of their social media presence. Um, they were trying

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Speaker 1: to present themselves as like a news aggregator, right, but

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Speaker 1: they still operated that. But they still operated the forum

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Speaker 1: on their site throughout most of that time. And it's

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Speaker 1: only until recently where they shut that forum down. Um,

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Speaker 1: which was you know, full of full of all kinds

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Speaker 1: of conspiratorial nonsense. It's very easy to see passed for

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Speaker 1: most people, uh, secret you know, secret Arctic ship, which

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Speaker 1: is yeah, it's always that's usually Yeah, even going to

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Speaker 1: get stuff like watch this s j W get wrecked,

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Speaker 1: which which is not a quotation, but just that kind

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Speaker 1: of vibe, that style of content. Yeah, going from the

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Speaker 1: forum operating than what they know their social media accounts

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Speaker 1: to the shift this more of like presenting as a

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Speaker 1: news website. Talking about that and the potential effects that

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Speaker 1: we see this having on both like the social media

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Speaker 1: sites and just the overall trend of news aggregation in general,

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Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah. So the first big shift that I

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Speaker 1: found UM was the creation of their Telegram channel, which

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Speaker 1: is in January of one actually, so this is relatively

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Speaker 1: more recent than Yeah, if that happened UM, and they

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Speaker 1: operated their Telegram as a UM as more in this

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Speaker 1: traditional news aggregator since and so that's how they really

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Speaker 1: blew up on Telegram. At some point they deleted all

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Speaker 1: of their old tweets UM and started operating their Twitter

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Speaker 1: in a similar manner. It was after they created this

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Speaker 1: telegram channel UM in September, actually overnight on septemb they

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Speaker 1: completely re rebranded the site. They took out all the

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Speaker 1: user forums UM, they included backdated articles to a year

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Speaker 1: prior UM, and looking looking through archives of it, there

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Speaker 1: was a note saying something along the lines of we

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Speaker 1: have found so much growth on our social media are

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Speaker 1: growing Telegram channel, are growing Twitter account UM, and something

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Speaker 1: to the effect of we we are changing our strategy

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Speaker 1: and going about this a different way. UM. And you

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Speaker 1: can if you were into the forum, you can join

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Speaker 1: our discord UM which is defunct and I'll get I'll

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Speaker 1: get into that later. UM. And yeah, looking it was

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Speaker 1: really interesting too because looking at these backdated articles UM,

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Speaker 1: they included very obviously plagiarized content. UM. They had I

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Speaker 1: believe it's it's all in the article, but they had

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Speaker 1: four journalists UM names attached with the article using um

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Speaker 1: AI generated images for their pictures. UM. And the especially

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Speaker 1: the articles that they themselves published UM were very focused

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Speaker 1: on UFOs paranormal paranormal phenomenon UM, as well as content

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Speaker 1: that could cause skepticism within an audience, UM about vaccines

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Speaker 1: and lockdowns. And I do not know the intent of

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Speaker 1: U their editorial board, and so I cannot speak on that,

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Speaker 1: but of course it generated this effect. Yes, that is,

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Speaker 1: they found a way of creating content which develops a

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Speaker 1: very specific audience, which grew their numbers, which made them,

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Speaker 1: you know what one could assume would make them want

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Speaker 1: to make more of that content. Because that makes more

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Speaker 1: numbers than they can UM use that to grow their platform. UM. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: specifically leading up like after after January UM ramping up

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Speaker 1: one of the vaccines were coming more and more common

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Speaker 1: in the States and that across the world. UM. They

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Speaker 1: have seen a pretty significant growth and have changed their

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Speaker 1: platform accordingly exactly. UM. So we began looking into who

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Speaker 1: the who the fun owns this, what's going on with

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Speaker 1: this UM. Like all German companies UM, and it is

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Speaker 1: based in Germany, there's a requirement by law to include

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Speaker 1: an imprint or an impress them that includes an address

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Speaker 1: UM contact information for the site UM. There in the

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Speaker 1: company that owns it UM a company called Future Bites

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Speaker 1: operates disclosed tv UM, which describes itself as a private

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Speaker 1: equity firm and media group. UM and looking into the

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Speaker 1: ownership behind Future Bites is a man by the name

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Speaker 1: of Uva Brown who has a pretty interesting backstory. He's hosted,

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Speaker 1: he's He's made numerous web hosting sites. UM. I believe

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Speaker 1: he created some dating sites as well, but but my

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Speaker 1: research was not conclusive, so that's a maybe. UM. But

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Speaker 1: eventually he sold. He had his most success when he

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Speaker 1: sold one of his web hosting sites to go Daddy

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Speaker 1: for a lot of money, and along the way, in

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Speaker 1: his own as he described, booked a flight on virgin

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Speaker 1: to go into space and see for himself if the earth,

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Speaker 1: if the Earth was flat. Oh my god, awesome cool

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Speaker 1: that that, this is great? Thank you. Yeah. So this

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Speaker 1: this is who we're dealing with, um. Sweet. And the

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Speaker 1: thing about Disclosed being based in Germany, UM, that that

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Speaker 1: becomes an issue, UM, is that Germany has a very

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Speaker 1: different uh look at free speech than in the US. UM.

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Speaker 1: For example, even online displaying swastikas UM and denying the

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Speaker 1: Holocaust is legal and is a prosecutable crime. They can

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Speaker 1: get you jail time. UM. So as we explored as

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Speaker 1: I mostly and UM, there's additional reporting from Berni Piper

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Speaker 1: and I'll talk a bit more about that later explored

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Speaker 1: the discord and their telegram. We realized, Hum, it seems

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Speaker 1: to be a lot of Nazis here, and by which

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Speaker 1: when I say seems to be a lot of Nazis,

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Speaker 1: I mean people with swastikas in their profile builds, UM

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Speaker 1: with you know, names, referencing the Holocaust with the whispers

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Speaker 1: parentheses um, and saying denying that the hologast Happened UM,

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Speaker 1: and also sharing the neo Nazi, famous neo Nazi, infamous

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Speaker 1: new Nazi propaganda film Europa The Last Battle UM, which

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Speaker 1: was shared by prominent q and On influencer ghost Ezra. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I know. UM, oh man, this this came up a

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Speaker 1: few days ago. One of the one of the channels

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Speaker 1: that me and someone else have been watching, UH forwarded

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Speaker 1: me it being that that that film being shared at

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Speaker 1: the it was it was it was that the the

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Speaker 1: Free Oregon Telegram channel was sharing links to that and

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Speaker 1: I wonder I would I would like to track back

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Speaker 1: where that link came from. UM. Yeah. Not not great

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Speaker 1: seeing that film circulate more and more, especially among like

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Speaker 1: you know, the free organ Telegram channels, you know, like

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Speaker 1: Anti mask, Anti backs, Anti Lockdown channel. Yeah, and seeing

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Speaker 1: the percoloration of that type of content. Yeah. So and

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Speaker 1: prepare for this article UM. With the help of of

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Speaker 1: the Logically editorial team, I'm a freelancer UM, their current

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Speaker 1: head of content, Ernie Piper UM sent an email basically asking, hey,

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Speaker 1: what's going on. You all seem to have a Nazi

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Speaker 1: problem that's kind of borderline illegal in Germany, UM, to

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Speaker 1: which for a while this for for about twenty four

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Speaker 1: hours as closed, just went totally quiet and didn't post

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Speaker 1: Um and then came out with a post specifically targeting

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Speaker 1: Ernie Um by name him and with a picture of

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Speaker 1: him and linking to some of his old reporting work

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Speaker 1: as well, Um saying yes, Uva Brown owns this. He

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Speaker 1: got his money from Go daddy. You know, we value

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Speaker 1: free speech and we condemn hatred whatnot, and and saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: our telegram we have a tell there's a telegram group,

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Speaker 1: but we have these rules in it, and h okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we we had to shut down the discord that got

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Speaker 1: a little bit out of hand. We admit that. You know,

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Speaker 1: they had people denying the Holocaust with swastka icons in

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Speaker 1: their discord that they didn't seem to care too much

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Speaker 1: about until someone pointed it out. Um. And you know

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Speaker 1: there's there was additionally very explicit neo Nazi content in

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Speaker 1: their telegram channel as well, with the excuse, oh well,

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Speaker 1: we're a glowing growing platform. We we can't moderate everything.

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Speaker 1: Is well they have They just crossed four hundred thousand

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Speaker 1: in their telegram channel and I think about thirty thousand

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Speaker 1: and their telegram group UM, which is frankly bullshit. Yeah

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Speaker 1: that is if if my personal opinion is that if

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Speaker 1: you cannot don't have the resources to moderate this space,

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Speaker 1: you probably shouldn't space the space. Um. And and additionally confirming, oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: we we when we made our new version of the site. Yes,

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Speaker 1: we backdated some articles from previous user generated content that

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Speaker 1: we you know, didn't vet properly. We're trying to fix

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Speaker 1: that now they removed some of those articles. Um. And

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Speaker 1: that yeah, we none of the people who who are

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Speaker 1: the authors of our articles are real people and they're

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Speaker 1: all pen names. Um. You know. They also have or

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Speaker 1: at least had a tab on their website that said

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Speaker 1: right for us and looking for people to send them

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Speaker 1: things and saying you know, well we will disclose your

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Speaker 1: bio and link to all your social media if you

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Speaker 1: write a story for us. And they're there was zero

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Speaker 1: of that happening as well. So do you think that,

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Speaker 1: I know, like on the rules for their telegram they

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Speaker 1: have the no Nazi stuff rule. Um. Do you think

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Speaker 1: they're actually trying to discourage that because they're scared of

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Speaker 1: legal stuff or is that just presentorary and they I

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Speaker 1: guess you know, this is just going into speculations. So

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Speaker 1: I think this might be more a question for even

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Speaker 1: Robert Um in terms of yeah, like is the anti

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Speaker 1: Nazi stuff presentorary? And because it does seem to be

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Speaker 1: a lot of their user base is fostering that type

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Speaker 1: of thing or is you know being moved over from

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Speaker 1: other similar channels? Um? Because yeah, like a lot of

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Speaker 1: like the amount that we see disclose, like you know,

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Speaker 1: intercept with channels like you know, the Rise above Him

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Speaker 1: the channel, UM, and a whole bunch of like eco

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Speaker 1: fascist channels, and a whole bunch of channels you know

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Speaker 1: on a like a broad range of like actual like

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Speaker 1: fascist topics, like people who are like into fascist theory.

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Speaker 1: Um is quite high the like the amount that disclosed

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Speaker 1: shows up. Um. And I don't know, like you could

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Speaker 1: look at all their stuff saying I mean, like yeah

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Speaker 1: on on the their rule page saying no Nazi bullshit. Um.

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Speaker 1: But then if you spend any amount of time looking

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Speaker 1: at at where they're posts are forwarded, it's almost primarily

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Speaker 1: people who are self describe themselves as fascists. UM. So

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's hard to or Donald J. Trump Jr. Yes, Yes,

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Speaker 1: it expands out into a lot of you know, just

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Speaker 1: like you know, American journalists suits studying streamism could also

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Speaker 1: share discloses stuff on Twitter, right, that is part of

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Speaker 1: their thing is making that and you know that that

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Speaker 1: does strengthen them because it gives them that legitimacy. So

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Speaker 1: then when people point out that they have Nazi problem, like, no,

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Speaker 1: that's not us, that's just some of our users who

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Speaker 1: are trolling or you know whatever whatever bullshit they want

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Speaker 1: to say. Um So I guess, like how I guess

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Speaker 1: the real way to frame this is like how often

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Speaker 1: have you seen Nazi stuff associated with the disclose with

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Speaker 1: the Disclosed TV brand? Because that's the one thing we

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Speaker 1: actually can measure, right, we can't measure their intentions, but

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Speaker 1: we can't measure how often this stuff happens. Yeah, mean,

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Speaker 1: that's always like the best way to measure that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing, rather than just sort of like making the

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Speaker 1: allegation listing like we find it in this many channels,

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Speaker 1: we see it shared in these areas, it's being discussed

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Speaker 1: by these people, and like like that that's I think

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Speaker 1: always kind of how you actually build these these sort

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Speaker 1: of networks is by looking at what is actually spreading

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Speaker 1: where like that's that it is thankfully, something that you

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Speaker 1: can measure pretty objectively, and like they are fostering it

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Speaker 1: with the amount of stuff they talk about, like George Soros,

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Speaker 1: and you know, the amount of stuff that they like.

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Speaker 1: The way they frame breaking news is has that editorial

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Speaker 1: bent where it's very clear that it's getting pushed in

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Speaker 1: a specific direction like there's that is That is a

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Speaker 1: thing that you can observe by reading the type of

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Speaker 1: narratives they're weaving via how they report information. Um, the

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Speaker 1: the topics that they choose to cover, our topics that

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Speaker 1: reson very deeply with conspiracist and with far at extremist communities. UM.

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Speaker 1: If I had to speculate, UM, I will say at

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Speaker 1: least since the article has come out, Um, they've done

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Speaker 1: a better job of moderating their telegram channel at least

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Speaker 1: for now. So good job, disclosed, TV no one. You

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Speaker 1: can't find links to Europe with the last battle there anymore.

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Speaker 1: You can still find you can still find very rampant

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Speaker 1: homophobia slurs um, because you know they didn't. They clearly

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Speaker 1: auto blocked some words, but people can shorten them or

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Speaker 1: use different spellings for those words to still be used

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Speaker 1: in the channel. Um, there's still anti Semitic um coded

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Speaker 1: anti Semitic references as well responding to something saying oive

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Speaker 1: a for example, which is something that tends to be

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Speaker 1: used by a lot of neo Nazis and anti Semites. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean even and if you do any amount of

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Speaker 1: research on Telegram, you will you will find forward links

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Speaker 1: forwarded links to this channel all everywhere, like if it's

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Speaker 1: it is, it is so massive. The footprint that they

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Speaker 1: have currently in the in like the the cycle of

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Speaker 1: of forwarding posts specifically on Telegram UM and yeah, and

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Speaker 1: they're they're getting a lot of traction on it because

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Speaker 1: they have stuff framed in a way that's really easy

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Speaker 1: for them to have those stuff like line up with

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Speaker 1: the communities that promote those types of worldviews UM and

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Speaker 1: promote the you know, the narratives that they want to foster.

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Speaker 1: So let's see, let's have another quick break and then

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Speaker 1: let's maybe talk about your big master's project, which is

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Speaker 1: really interesting. Yeah, can I can? I can I do it? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I do this. You know you know what isn't telegram? Uh?

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Speaker 1: Literally these ads unless we get an ad by Telegram,

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Speaker 1: which we are primarily sponsored by the Duo Brothers UM.

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Speaker 1: But that's for a separate project. My favorite at is

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Speaker 1: the is the one where it's the kid playing and

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Speaker 1: they find a gun. Oh yeah, that's my favorite. And

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Speaker 1: oh we are thanks to great hope. Everybody enjoyed that

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Speaker 1: kid finding a gun a kid firing it. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: there's one of my favorite tweets recently was like somebody,

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Speaker 1: it was somebody like clipped a screen grab of news

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Speaker 1: article that was like a toddler has shot someone every

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Speaker 1: day in the United States for the last three years,

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Speaker 1: and somebody quote tweeted and said, somebody fucking stop him.

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Speaker 1: It's very good. Um. The last thing I want to

404
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 1: talk about is just kind of why news aggregators are

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Speaker 1: bad in the first place, and examples of which we've

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Speaker 1: seen the past few years, and how they contribute to

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Speaker 1: dis information specifically, and how they don't do sourcing for

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Speaker 1: any claims and they try to make themselves a primary

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Speaker 1: source even though they're not. UM. And then also would

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Speaker 1: love to talk about your very fancy project. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: we saw a lot of news aggregators that like during

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Speaker 1: the protest, specifically that that spawned and killed many a

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Speaker 1: news aggregator account UM, which did not help things very much. UM.

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Speaker 1: And this is this is an issue that strikes across

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Speaker 1: the political spectrum. Yes, I mean one of the biggest

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Speaker 1: instances of that would be an account called and on

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Speaker 1: cat right. That was the yeah um who you know

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Speaker 1: marketed themselves towards the left wing UM. And I again,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what their intentionality was. They may have

420
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Speaker 1: had their heart in the right place. I have no idea,

421
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: um and I'm not going to speculate on that right now.

422
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 1: But the effect that they caused was damaging to how

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00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: information is disseminated, specifically in high stress events. Um. You know,

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00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: like for instance, the writtenhouse shooting, you know, like stuff

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00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: like that, Uh, the big accounts, the demos around that

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Speaker 1: before that, yeah, before that, yes, yeah, like the the

427
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: in fostering that very fast paced unverified information circulation UM

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Speaker 1: that gets you know a lot of retweets, it gets

429
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: it gets a lot of eyeballs on it. But but

430
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 1: it's hard. It makes it very hard to backtrack claims

431
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: because they do not want to link to other accounts,

432
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: because they're mostly interested in growing their own account. Um.

433
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 1: So and I will say Disclose has gotten better about

434
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: linking to the sources, even if the title and the

435
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: tweet don't necessarily match what in the story they link to. Yeah,

436
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: at least someone could take a different interpretation from the two. Yes, So,

437
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 1: just like you know, news aggregation and the way it

438
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 1: intersects with disinformation and misinformation, not just a problem for

439
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: the far right, not just a problem for the right wing,

440
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,479
Speaker 1: just a problem for liberals, not just problem for leftist

441
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 1: This is the thing that anyone, anyone can really grasp

442
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 1: on to um. And some of it's accidental, some of

443
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: it's intentional. Right, there's some some people might just do

444
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: this kind of mindlessly, and some people may, you know,

445
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 1: do this aggregation with a very specific intent in mind.

446
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 1: So just be very careful whenever you have an account

447
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: that always leads with all caps like breaking like news.

448
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: Like if if you have an account that always does that,

449
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: maybe maybe maybe don't take that account super seriously all

450
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: the time. Maybe you should uh find other sources of

451
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: info that don't always start the tweets with breaking news

452
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: and all caps or advice to people if they do

453
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: want something like that, find an actual news source. Yeah,

454
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: there's plenty of valid criticism to be made. Again, you

455
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 1: know these mainstream media m s M centrist stuff from

456
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: from you know, even from the left, there's there's criticism. Um,

457
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,719
Speaker 1: but you have to find some way of finding your

458
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: own meaning and understanding of what is going on in

459
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: the world around you. I think a CNN Reuters. Yeah,

460
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: And on that point, I think that is part of

461
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: why I think Disclosed can succeed and or like what

462
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: they did can succeed, even like when I see stuff

463
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: shared on the left, even by like anarchists, because it

464
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: is a not mainstream media news source, the way they

465
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: can frame things of sometimes rarely will match up with

466
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: like an actual anarchist views and the like, Yeah, I'm

467
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: going to share it from this thing because it does

468
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: feel like an underground you know source. It doesn't. It doesn't.

469
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,719
Speaker 1: It's not you're not sharing a scene an article, so

470
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 1: you feel better because instead you're sharing something that is

471
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: not in the mainstream. So like I get that, I

472
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: get that pull to not something that genuous reading of

473
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: a CNN article instead. Yeah, but instead of you're you know,

474
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: it's not actually better, it's just marketing. They're just tricking

475
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: you via esthetics and branding, and that's all that it is, right,

476
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: So maybe you should learn learn to see past the

477
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:16,959
Speaker 1: marketing and branding of those types of things, and look

478
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: at the actual content of what's being shared. What is

479
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: the university project thing that has been taking up a

480
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 1: lot of your time? Yeah, and um, so you're back

481
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: in the U S. And I got interested, um, especially

482
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: in looking at the spread of Q and on in Germany,

483
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: and that you led me down this research path, um,

484
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: and brought me especially to telegram um again before it

485
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: was largely used in in right wing circles in the

486
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: U S. Well, the the Nazis have have pretty regularly

487
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 1: in the US, but on telegram as well. Um. But

488
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: this led me to look at this and and um

489
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,959
Speaker 1: especially to to look at telegram the context of as

490
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: I mentioned, Colin Campbell's concept of the cultic milieu, um,

491
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: which I don't know if you'll have talked about that

492
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: on this we have one behind subject of time, okay,

493
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: but yeah, to give a quick summary, is is the

494
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: concept that there is this space and when Colin Campbell

495
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: wrote that, it was in I believe the seventies. So

496
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: it was a physical space where people go to find

497
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: these rejected narratives, you know, reject the idea of rejected knowledge,

498
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: and they go to seek this kind of knowledge and

499
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: and and these things. UM. So he's talking about things

500
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: like UFO conferences or or meet ups, or or alternative bookstores,

501
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: or perhaps maybe signing up at an institute to get

502
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: a degree in metaphysics. Yeah, as a weirdly specific example,

503
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: gear Yeah, sorry, does red red of thought? Yeah. Anyway,

504
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 1: how's that going, by the way, Garrison, it's going good, good, Yeah.

505
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: And and what you find is is people can very

506
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: easily move between ideologies, UM. And as they move between

507
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 1: ideologies concepts, specific schools, they cross pollinate these schools UM.

508
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: And this is how you get these kind of highly

509
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 1: syncretic movements like Q and on UM, like the modern

510
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: conspiracy movement UM, which is incredibly syncretic, and UM some

511
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: of the other really bad ones that are out there

512
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: as well that combine these different views UM. Specifically, when

513
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: you start when you start combining the type of like

514
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: cultural mysticism with politics, often you can have very volatile results. Yes, exactly.

515
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 1: Can you think of any examples? I mean, in some ways,

516
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: the modern eco fascist movement is built on a lot

517
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 1: of this type of stuff, so that that would be

518
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: the easiest one, would be the easiest one. The I

519
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: think that the syncretism of because I think a lot

520
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 1: of people have been surprised to see like you know,

521
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: kind of like natural medicine and and what not subcultures

522
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 1: and eight like alien subcultures kind of colliding with Q

523
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: and on and and these like more like far right

524
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: neo Nazi type groups, and the fact that there are

525
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: all of these things that were associated for years kind

526
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: of more with the left have been increasingly um pulled

527
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: into this this sort of weather system of conspiratorial thinking

528
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: has been surprising to a lot of people who don't

529
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: understand this stuff. But it makes total sense if you

530
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: if you have been paying attention to the scholarship on

531
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 1: on what is actually like how cults sort of form

532
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: like it's it's it's um. It's like a weather pattern

533
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: that's been building for quite a while. There's a gravity

534
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: to it that sucks um everything in together and it

535
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: all kind of it's as you said, syncretic um. It's

536
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: not to get into horsehoe through. But this is even

537
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: how you get some of that crossover, right, Yes, yeah,

538
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: that was that was That was what I was just

539
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: going to mention, is that even a lot of like

540
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: the left wing authors or you know, post left wing

541
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: authors who got into this like cultural mysticism. Um, you

542
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: see their texts now getting shared by like like open fascists.

543
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 1: Even though these authors were anti fascist, Um, they are

544
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: able to still pick and choose what parts they're writing

545
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 1: to appropriate because some of it can kind of synchronize

546
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: at from opposite ends a very long time. Like if

547
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,720
Speaker 1: you we've we talked about in our Gabriel the Nunzio

548
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 1: episodes Fume, which was this kind of like we're a

549
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: large chunk of like the fascist intellectual movement got started,

550
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: um in the post World War One period, but also

551
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: there were like a ton of anarchists and a lot

552
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,320
Speaker 1: of like left wing um like thought leaders and whatnot.

553
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 1: We're kind of all it was again kind of there

554
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,240
Speaker 1: there was this kind of like gravity center that pulled

555
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:54,720
Speaker 1: everything in and it all started churning together, and um,

556
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,720
Speaker 1: yeah we're we're we're we're seeing that happen now. Um

557
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 1: and yeah it sucks. That's that's that's great. To jump

558
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 1: back to, campl That's one of those examples of those

559
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: physical space of the call and that Cal Campbell was

560
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 1: talking about right, Um, where it's it's any place that

561
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,839
Speaker 1: ideas that are rejected by you know, the orthodox kind

562
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: of the establishment. There is overlap, there is not necessarily

563
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: ideological overlap. There is an interplay between them as people

564
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: move between them and as these ideas come into collision

565
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: with one another. Um, and with the Internet, right, whole

566
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: different fucking ball game. Um yeah, because that space is

567
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: now everywhere exactly and and telegram specifically has the specific

568
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: affordances that make it ideal for having this soup of

569
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: bullshit on it as well. Um. It's it's additionally one

570
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: of and this may be changing. There's a lot of

571
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: discussion going on about this, especially within the German government,

572
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 1: who could actually they already have a lot that they

573
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: could use to say, hey, you can't have Nazis on

574
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: you can't have this Nazi ship in telegram. Um. But

575
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: telegrams one of these last places where where things are

576
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:14,320
Speaker 1: largely allowed to spread without any kind of interruption, right, Um,

577
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 1: which I do think you know you look at telegram

578
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 1: is used in in um, the Hong Kong uprising as well,

579
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,879
Speaker 1: it was used for it was used in the George Yeah,

580
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: that George Floyd uprising as well. Um. And it's the

581
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: same things that people too at time is fake, um,

582
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 1: bolish lane of your time. Um, but shooting your clock,

583
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 1: shoot the fucking clock. But okay, said, let's get back

584
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 1: to the topic. Yeah, but but but but drumming back

585
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 1: into this, Telegram markets itself is this very secure platform.

586
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 1: It's probably not right. It does have it's certainly not

587
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: absolutely not. It does have it does have encrypted chats,

588
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 1: but that's only for one to one messaging between people.

589
00:36:58,280 --> 00:36:59,879
Speaker 1: And even then you need to go and make your

590
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 1: the security settings right. And again, I I don't fully

591
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: trust that. Yeah, I don't fully truy. I mean signal

592
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: is about barely trust signal. Yeah, yeah, I trust conversations

593
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,439
Speaker 1: when everyone has put their phone inside a Faraday bag

594
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: in a house and then we walked two miles into

595
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 1: we walked two miles into the woods, then you can

596
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: have a conversation. Yeah. Um, but Telegram market itself is

597
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: a very secure app, right, um, which is which is

598
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 1: largely marketing. You know, It's it's appeal is that it's

599
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,240
Speaker 1: not What's app, it's not owned by Facebook. It's probably

600
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 1: worth acknowledging that for because it's also very popular with

601
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 1: a lot of people in um, you know, parts of

602
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: the global South and countries with authoritarian governments, and it

603
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 1: is has been used for a lot of organizing and

604
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 1: can be more secure and all more secure but also

605
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 1: more able than what than any other tool people have

606
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 1: access to. I mean in Syria, it's like it's again

607
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,839
Speaker 1: extremely common for like nay, like neighborhoods and towns will

608
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 1: have like Telegram groups for this little village where they

609
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff gets done over Telegram in places

610
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: like that, And telegram sits in this interesting space between

611
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: social media. UM. It's not a full on social media site,

612
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: but it's also not just a messaging app like telegrams

613
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 1: to categorize it is an interesting sort of like in

614
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:24,919
Speaker 1: between type thing. Yeah, because you can have essentially unlimited

615
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: I think the number is in the hundreds of thousands

616
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 1: for how many people can join a group message UM

617
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 1: on Telegram. And you also have these one way messaging

618
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 1: thing called channels where where one person or group of

619
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:41,280
Speaker 1: people can send out messages that appear alongside everyone else's

620
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: message feed as well. UM, and that can you can

621
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: also enable comments on that UM, which will get into

622
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: in a second UM. But but it's a great way

623
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 1: to share information as well. And what I was specifically

624
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 1: looking at is the forwarding of messages, because you you

625
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: can forward a message from this one channel into whatever

626
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: a group chat you're in, and it links back to

627
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 1: that channel. And I was interested in saying, how far

628
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 1: you know, what connections can we make from this? What

629
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 1: kind of zigzagging can we find? Um enhancer is sucking

630
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 1: a lot uh where where someone may may use telegram

631
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 1: for for example, a neighborhood group message right, and then

632
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 1: someone forwards the messages a message for this channel UM

633
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 1: or for this other group message UM, where they talk about, oh,

634
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 1: here's kind of helped practices to use. And then you

635
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: get into the pseudo science of things crossing into further

636
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 1: messages from what's forward forward groups and channels from what's

637
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 1: forwarded into that group and channel, and so on so on,

638
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 1: until you get to the neo nazis eventually UM. And

639
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 1: it's also it is it is a concerted effort on

640
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 1: the part of people pushing their ideology, who will go

641
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:55,240
Speaker 1: in the comments of these giant channels and say, hey,

642
00:39:55,480 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 1: check out my channel. UM, what's not a real one?

643
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 1: You know, areean cooking, which is probably a channel but

644
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: it probably is. Yeah, great job checking. Sorry, but check

645
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 1: out check out check out, check out this or whatever.

646
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: And and especially when q and on moved on a

647
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: lot of promoters. Um, there there was organized groups of

648
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,879
Speaker 1: of internet neo Nazis going on and trying to pill

649
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 1: boomers into neo Nazism. And because of the because of

650
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: the mesh like network of Telegram, they try to make

651
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 1: those meshes connect via dissemination. Right you can, you know,

652
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 1: people who are dedicated to these more esoteric groups can

653
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 1: join more regular like Marga groups or qut on groups

654
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,240
Speaker 1: and start slowly bringing links to the start doing links

655
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 1: and forwarding to the more extreme channels. Um. And eventually yeah,

656
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: that does that does work. It can be a slow,

657
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 1: careful process um, or it can be very fast and

658
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: like bobastic And it'll depending on the said one of

659
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: them will latch onto one one watch onto the other. Yeah.

660
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: And and before the article came out, UM, what I

661
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 1: did see was the specific thing of accounts that I

662
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,919
Speaker 1: would associate or or believe to be neo Nazi UM

663
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,399
Speaker 1: encouraging people to join their groups and channels UM in

664
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: the in the telegram group message as well. And I

665
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: cannot speak to what that looks like right now after

666
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 1: the article has come out, yeah, and I've been trying

667
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 1: to take a break from telegram for my day to

668
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: day life, um and focus on reading actual books. So

669
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 1: but yeah, that is how I can always tell when

670
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: one of us has been spending time on telegram, because

671
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: the things we consider jokes get much worse. Yeah. You

672
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:52,760
Speaker 1: remember when I found that playlist of Blink covers covers

673
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 1: it was what there was like a hundred of them

674
00:41:55,239 --> 00:42:02,919
Speaker 1: Blink or some full ship. Yeah, you always find you could,

675
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 1: you could find the most fucked up stuff. Don't don't

676
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 1: do it. Don't don't scrowl until do not. You're not

677
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 1: going to get this isn't like coveting the stay. You

678
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 1: don't need to be like it's it's not even it's

679
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 1: not worth it, Like there's no sacred novit like knowledge

680
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: that we're hiding. It's just it's it's just kind of sucks,

681
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: like it just like it just to feel bad. Yeah,

682
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 1: it just makes you feel worse about life and yourself

683
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 1: and the people around you. So the scope for your

684
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: master's project what it's kind of the what's the what's

685
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 1: the deal with like tying these things together? I guess yeah. Yeah,

686
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 1: So so using this social network analysis to argue that

687
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: the telegram does function as this could take Millie you um,

688
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 1: which yeah, it seems seems to be. It seems to

689
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: be the case. Yeah. Um. You know, and the question

690
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,839
Speaker 1: gets into what is the responsibility the platform? Right, um,

691
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 1: because I fully believe there should be something at least

692
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: similar to this. It has been used for you know,

693
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 1: purposes along with my politics, in which I would call

694
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:16,280
Speaker 1: good and needed. Um. However, they've also allowed this fucking

695
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:20,359
Speaker 1: awful ecosystem to spread. It's it's interesting to see when

696
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 1: Telegram has had to step in and they you know,

697
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: they have pulled down some ices, accounts and channels. Um.

698
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 1: And and they have down when I was in um

699
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: Al Hall, which is that the camp where all the

700
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 1: ISIS prisoners were in Syria. Like while Jake and I

701
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 1: were in the camp, we could see on telegram like

702
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,919
Speaker 1: ISIS supporters and al hole talking about stabbing guards like

703
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 1: in real time. It was not particularly Uh. They've done

704
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: like a lot. There's less of it than there used

705
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 1: to be, but it is still not hard to find

706
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 1: ISIS on telegram. Yeah. And they they've taken down a

707
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,399
Speaker 1: few amounts of neo Nazi channels. Um. It's it's funny

708
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 1: because oh god, maybe cut this. But they've taken on

709
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 1: some of the your honesty channels when they've shared Ice

710
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: as ship for example. Yeah, yeah, I think we're we've

711
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 1: we're familiar with that line of thing. That's something we've

712
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: mentioned before. Okay. There has been pressure from from the

713
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 1: play Store and Google as well, or the play Store

714
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,240
Speaker 1: from Google and and the app store Apples, app Store

715
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 1: from Apple to say we we aren't going to carry

716
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 1: the app if you don't do just a tiny bit

717
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 1: better essentially um which which which also it exists as

718
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 1: a web client, um, both as as a web client

719
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 1: and as a desktop app as well. UM. But that

720
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 1: would you know, limits some of it. Um. So, So

721
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: this has become largely discussed in the German in the

722
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: German parment because there's a new UM, there's a new

723
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 1: government in Germany, and and there is this history of

724
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 1: Germany kind of is the lead for doing things about

725
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: this digital content, especially within the EU. And and as

726
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 1: I mentioned, there's already law call Adoptic Enforcement Act that

727
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 1: requires platforms to take down content in Germany. Um. They

728
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:20,280
Speaker 1: could be implemented on telegram as well. There's already a law. Yeah,

729
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 1: I mean This is like the thing why you know

730
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 1: what I watch happen lots is you know, these channels

731
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 1: will get shut down and they'll make a new one,

732
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:29,880
Speaker 1: and it will shut down that one and make a

733
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 1: new one. Right. It's this You see this with like

734
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: discord servers, telegram channels. It is kind of this endless cycle, um,

735
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 1: and seeking an end to the cycle. It's always not

736
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 1: as easy as what one would hope, UM, because of

737
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 1: the cyclical nature of building these platforms and connections and

738
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 1: how the people who run these you know, intersect and

739
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 1: specifically with with telegrams. Really easy because channel get shut down,

740
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: you're still part of twelve of their channels, and odds

741
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 1: are one of those channels is going to afford you

742
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,359
Speaker 1: the link to the new channel that was that was lost. Yeah,

743
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 1: And this is the thing you see where they send

744
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 1: lists of channels within within extremest groups and channels, they

745
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 1: will send out a list of here's other groups and

746
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 1: channels to check out as well. Yeah, but I mean

747
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: I would So that's something that's you know, hard for

748
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 1: regular people to actually do. But something I think that

749
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: people who do not own these platforms nor lawmakers can't

750
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: think about is particularly the the cultic comulie you that

751
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 1: does you know, go past regular left right divisions in

752
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: terms of politics and how you know, symbol like symbology

753
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 1: um and stuff that was you know initially you know,

754
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: perhaps more anarchist or or left wing is being used

755
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,319
Speaker 1: by people on the right, and some people are really

756
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 1: confused by that, and there is ways to there is

757
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 1: ways to understand it, like it is, it does. I

758
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 1: am very frustrated when I look at you know, people

759
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 1: online who don't understand why Nazis can use ted K

760
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 1: and right, it's like, yeah, like it's it's not it's

761
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 1: it's not it's not what It's not not really about

762
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 1: what ted K actually run. It's more the symbolic meme

763
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 1: of ted K. And trying to you know, get that,

764
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,240
Speaker 1: get that line of thinking across is not the easiest

765
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 1: thing because sometimes it will go in the other direction

766
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:12,919
Speaker 1: and be like, oh, ted K is a Nazi, which

767
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 1: isn't accurate either, Like that's that's not also the most

768
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 1: accurate thing to say, So it's it's the cultimalu framework

769
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: of being. Yeah. Sometimes these symbols can cross over from

770
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: one thing to another, and sometimes the action can be

771
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:28,240
Speaker 1: the same you know, both anarchists and like instructionary fascists

772
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,720
Speaker 1: both want to like attack like industrialization and attack points

773
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 1: of industry, right, but maybe their ideologies are slightly different,

774
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 1: sometimes in specific ways, so it's always a tricky thing

775
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:42,319
Speaker 1: to kind of navigate. UM. So I think in terms of,

776
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 1: you know, people should think about what symbols they promote, uh,

777
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,319
Speaker 1: like publicly and stuff is a good thing, and think

778
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:53,399
Speaker 1: about news aggregation and how to maybe not not just

779
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 1: share something because it's countercultural, trying to figure out what

780
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:01,280
Speaker 1: other what other types of narratives the sources spread. Um

781
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 1: journalists support the work of real journalist because a bunch

782
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,359
Speaker 1: of kick asks people out there um who were doing

783
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 1: awesome research and work. So I think that kind of

784
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: wraps up the scope of what I want to talk

785
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 1: about around Disclose specifically, because I mean, discloses a thing,

786
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 1: but it's also like it's good as just like an

787
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 1: example to like this overly this broader like phenomenon, I think, um,

788
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 1: because like disclose won't be here forever, hopefully, like you know,

789
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: hopefully in a few years. It's something that we can

790
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 1: just like look back on and laugh about. Um. But

791
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's still a good signifier for a

792
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 1: phenomenon that happens, and the phenomenon even even if disclose

793
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 1: goes away, the phenomenon is still going to stay. Um,

794
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 1: and it's important to point it out when you see

795
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: whatever the next version of this is. So, And I'll

796
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,839
Speaker 1: also say that the culticnalu isn't necessarily a bad thing. Right,

797
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 1: this is you know where where the stuff that is

798
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:57,319
Speaker 1: rejected by the orthodox goes and clearly eliminating right, any

799
00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: kind of culticnal you just means everything is exactly the

800
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 1: fucking same, mean falls in line with or thoughts belief

801
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: which I strongly disagree with as well. No, there's there

802
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 1: is a way to be countercultural without being a conspiratorial fascist.

803
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 1: I would say that most responsibility in which you were

804
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: consuming and sharing, Yes, And I would say like most

805
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:20,800
Speaker 1: people who are actually counterculture are Yeah, like actual punk

806
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 1: is that you know, once you're enforcing traditional hierarchical of

807
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 1: viewpoints that that ain't punk. That is uh, that's playing

808
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: into what the status quo was. That isn't that isn't revolutionary.

809
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 1: Pistols would disagree with you, aren't they all? Yeah? But

810
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: I think we can all agree that having living members

811
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:45,320
Speaker 1: of the sex Pistols was a mistake, and I would

812
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: I prefer Alana Wachowski's version of punk to theirs anyway.

813
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: So hey, who cares? UM? So thank you for your work, Thomas. UM.

814
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 1: I would recommend people reach your article, UM, which you

815
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: can do by googling disclosed TV and out it will

816
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 1: be for me. It's the second result that pops up,

817
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 1: So that's gool um. Send it to all your friends

818
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 1: and mutuals who are sharing disclosed TV. UM. You can

819
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 1: find it on logically dot Ai is the website and

820
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 1: the full title of the article is Disclosed TV Conspiracy

821
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 1: Forum turned disinformation Factory. Thank you, Thank you for that. UM.

822
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 1: Do you want to direct people to your Twitter account

823
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:23,720
Speaker 1: or do you want to be a ghost that fades

824
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 1: away in their memory? Uh? Just don't be fucking weird.

825
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:31,720
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at w underscore underscore Thomas,

826
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: God damnit, Christ be weird. All right, I guess I'm

827
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 1: keeping my account Lockford. UM. Yeah, I also want to

828
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 1: shout out, um some of the local mutual aid or

829
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 1: one of the local mutual aid groups in the town

830
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 1: where I live or in the area where I lives.

831
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: The Atlanta Justice Alliance. Their cash app is cash symbol

832
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 1: a t L mutual fund and their Venmos a t

833
00:50:55,880 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: L mutual fund. They're helping out. Um they they've done weekly,

834
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: UM weekly provided food and resources for people, and how's

835
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 1: people living in downtown Atlanta. UM and are a great group.

836
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 1: And then also people want to give more money to things.

837
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 1: Shout out Atlanta Solidary Fund, who have helped many of

838
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 1: my friends get out of jail after they were arrested

839
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 1: in protests. And also you can hire me, yes if

840
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 1: you researchers, Yes you can. You can't. You can't hire

841
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 1: Thomas if you want. I mean, I've I've I've I've

842
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 1: known Thomas for a bit. Um they do really good work. UM. Yeah,

843
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 1: they're very They're very they're in my experience, they're very

844
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:42,359
Speaker 1: careful researcher. They will not say things without thinking about

845
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 1: them a lot first, which is always great in the researcher,

846
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 1: or at least not publicly send them money and off

847
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 1: put in comments. An even mix of money and really

848
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 1: off putting Twitter comments. One more shout out to my

849
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 1: One more shout out to my friends at Terrorism Bad Pod,

850
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:00,840
Speaker 1: which you should listen to and is on Twitter terrorism

851
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 1: bad pod Well, that doesn't for us today. If you,

852
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: for some reason are on social media and you want

853
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 1: to follow us, you can follow us at cool zone

854
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 1: Media or hassolutely don't do or happen here pod um.

855
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:16,399
Speaker 1: You can follow Robert Evans at I Write Okay, send

856
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 1: him weird messages, do not do that, and you can

857
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:25,280
Speaker 1: send me weird messages at creep time all right, Garrison,

858
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: pictures of salads that you make, and keep keep doing

859
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 1: that for like five or six years, to the point

860
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 1: that it actually becomes funny, because it's going to take

861
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 1: a while. I'm just happy that people stop sending me

862
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 1: meal porn. So that's honestly, that's a wind. That one's

863
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:50,280
Speaker 1: on you though, A good find everybody. It could Happen

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00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 1: Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more

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00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,439
Speaker 1: podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone

866
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:57,319
Speaker 1: media dot com, or check us out on the I

867
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen of podcasts.

868
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 1: You can find sources for It could Happen here, updated

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00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 1: monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks

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00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 1: for listening.