WEBVTT - Tackling the Racial Wealth Gap (How-To Monday) 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.840 Ba Fam, we have another how to throw back for you, 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:06.640 of course we do all month. We're looking back at 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:10.799 some of our favorite episodes from days past for memorable 0:00:10.800 --> 0:00:13.800 guests who unforgettable moment. There's still so much to learn 0:00:13.880 --> 0:00:16.880 from the b A Vault. Take a listen, will you? 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:20.360 Hey? Hey, ba Fam. It's Mandy and I am back 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:23.759 with another episode of Brown Ambition. I am so excited 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:26.439 to introduce you guys to today's guest. Her name is 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:30.240 Kimberly Atkins Store. She's a senior opinion writer and columnist 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:33.680 for the Boston Globe. She is the inaugural columnist for 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:37.800 The Emancipator, which is a joint independent, anti racist multimedia 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:41.720 project from Globe Opinion and the Boston University Center for 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:44.559 Anti Racist Research, which I am so glad that that 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:47.440 is even a thing that exists, and the author of 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:51.959 the Emancipator's new newsletter called Unbound. Now, Kimberly is one 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:55.120 of my most illustrious guests yet, y'all, so I'm going 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:58.760 to continue with her bio. She's also an MSNBC contributor 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:02.200 and co host. She's our podcast sister co host of 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:07.319 the Politicon podcast called Hashtag sisters in law. Previously, Kimberly 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:12.400 was the first Washington, DC based news correspondent for wbbur 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.959 So for my NPR Public Radio fanatics, we love that 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:20.080 She's also served as the Boston heralds Washington Bureau, chief, 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:24.480 guest host of c SPAN's Morning Collins Shows, Washington Journal, 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:29.280 and a Supreme Court reporter for Massachusetts Lawyer Weekly. So 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:32.480 you have a background in journalism, in law, in all 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:36.440 these different facets. I love a multifaceted woman and I 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:40.720 cannot wait to get into my conversation. So, without further ado, 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:43.800 welcome Kimberly. Thank you so much for joining Brown Ambition. 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:46.959 Thank you for having me, Mandy. I'm excited to be here. 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:49.960 So tell me about the Emancipator. It hasn't launched yet. 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:51.520 We're kind of a little bit ahead of the curve 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:54.400 breaking news for y'all. If you haven't heard of the Emancipator, 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:58.440 what can you tell the audience about this incredible new 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:00.840 publication and why you decided to be a part of it. 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:07.280 Yes, So this sprung out of a conversation with Bina Venkatraman, 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:11.360 who was at the time the editorial page editor at 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:14.680 The Boston Globe and doctor Ebram Kendy as he was 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:19.359 just getting started ramping up bus Center for Anti Racist Research, 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:23.760 and they had an online zoom chat and after that 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:29.040 they connected. They started talking about abolitionist newspapers at the time, 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:32.640 before and during and after the Civil War. And these 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:38.919 newspapers didn't just call for the emancipation of the enslaved 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:43.200 population of people in America. They had a broader vision, 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:45.920 you know. They thought about what it would look like, 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:50.360 what it would take to make black people who had 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:57.360 been enslaved full and participating citizens in American society, How 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:00.560 to get them educated, what they could do, they could 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:04.000 start businesses, how they can run for office, how they 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:06.720 know not just vote, but run for office. How they 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:10.480 can be a fully integrated part of society as a whole. 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:13.720 What citizenship really meant. They got the idea to take 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:19.040 that tradition and create a new platform to take that 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:24.520 same approach and looking at anti racist solutions to the 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:28.320 issues we have here and now today, not just rehashing 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.000 problems or talking about them, but thinking out of the box, 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:34.960 thinking about some solutions to the racism that's built into 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:38.280 all sorts of systems, not just criminal justice. This grew 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:40.960 like a lot of things out of the wake of 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:45.880 the lynching of George Floyd, but beyond that, in all 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:48.960 sorts of areas, and that's where this project was born. 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:52.240 Being brought me on board early on, I was very 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:56.360 eager to do so. Since then, we have co editors 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:59.640 in chief Deborah Douglas and Amber Payne, who have been 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:02.760 steered this project to its launch. And it will launch. 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:05.520 I'm very excited to say it's launching very soon. It's 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:10.640 launching this month after a lot, a lot of hard 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:14.320 work and anticipation, so I'm really excited about it. 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:17.159 Yeah, congratulations. Amber and I go way way back. I 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:20.320 can't remember. I feel like black women in journalism in 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:22.000 New York, like you know, you just find your way 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:24.600 to one another. I'm so glad that you being in Boston. 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:26.719 I'm getting to get to know you now. But Amber 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:28.480 and I go but way back when she was the 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:32.719 first editor in chief of NBC Black, their Black Culture 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:36.680 sort of publication. And I think when I had just 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:39.040 started Mandy Money, I had just launched my sort of 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.920 independent business, venturing out into my own this past summer, 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:44.919 and Amber and I reconnected and she had told me 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:47.280 she had just joined the Emancipator, and I was so 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:49.760 excited for her, and then so for her a few 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:52.080 months later or feels like, I don't know, who knows 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:54.680 what it was sometime last year, but more recently she 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:56.240 reached out and she's like, Mandy, we're going to be 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:58.719 launching soon, and she invited me to write a piece 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:01.040 for the Amanda to pay her as well, which I 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:03.520 was so excited to do. And I mean, it's not 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:05.920 every day that you get people who are like, hey, 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:09.280 can you write about inclusivity, racism in the workplace and 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:12.280 the experience of women of color, which that's all I 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:15.479 love talking about all day air day here on Brown Ambition. 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:19.560 So I'm honored and excited to just be a teeny 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:24.080 tiny little piece of the launch of the Emancipator. Talk 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:26.880 to me a little bit about your approach to like, 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:29.240 there's not a ton I mean, I don't have any 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:31.480 stats on this, but if I had to hazard a guests, 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:35.000 there aren't very many opinion writers from women of color. 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:38.280 You don't see that often in like mainstream publications. It 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:41.360 must I don't know if you feel a particular you know, 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:44.279 first only different sort of pressure when it comes to 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:47.800 your approach as an opinion writer. But can you talk 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:51.040 a little bit about your experience and how you got 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:53.279 to a place where you're like, Okay, I'm a black woman. 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:55.960 I'm actually going to write about issues that are important 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:58.680 to us and say it with my full chest, like 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:02.000 you've written about the crown at Katanji Brown Jackson. You know, 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:03.719 these issues that really affect us. 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:07.600 Yes, you know it's interesting. When I met Bina and 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.760 when she hired me to be a part of Globe Opinion, 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:13.800 I had never been on the opinion side of a 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:18.080 news publication. I had mostly had entirely been on the 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:21.479 news side, writing news, writing analyses of the news, but 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:25.960 still in that you know, grounded, fairness based, and not 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:28.039 that I'm the things I write now aren't fair, but 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:30.680 this idea that when you're on the news side of 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:32.560 a publication, it's not about what you think, it's not 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.279 about you, it's about what you're covering. Whereas on the 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:38.440 opinion side, you bring your full self to bear. It's 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:41.479 still journalism, it's still deeply reported. You still have to 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:44.320 show your work, but you bring all parts of view 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:47.000 to bear. And for me, of course, that includes being 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:50.279 a black woman in America, not everything that I write 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:55.360 comes from a particular that particular part of my perspective. 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:58.680 I find it. I'm very grateful that the Boston Globe 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:01.520 gives me the idea that gives me the ability to 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:05.039 write not only about things that are really important to me, 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:07.799 really important to the black community, but also write about, 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:10.960 you know, the Russia invasion, also be able to bring 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:14.440 to bear my experience covering foreign policy and the law 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:17.400 and everything else. Sometimes I feel like I can get pigeonholed, 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:20.000 like I'm always the you know, the black commentator on 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:22.840 a panel or something like that. Or you can feel 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:26.800 when you're a part of a discussion and you sense 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:31.200 that you were added because whoever was moderating it realized 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:33.120 at the last minute that it's a panel of white men, 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:34.720 and it's like, oh, that's we. 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:35.640 Need somebody call gim. 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:37.760 That's great that they're doing that, that they're trying to 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:40.080 be more inclusive, but it should be more organic than that. 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:43.560 And I feel like that can sometimes make you the 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:47.000 spokesperson for Black America, which I don't enjoy being because 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:49.960 I'm not. But I also think it is important to 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:52.520 have more people of color at the table in all 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:55.440 of these discussions, more women at the table in all 0:07:55.480 --> 0:08:00.400 these discussions. Any discussion that affects US in America effects 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:05.200 all Americans should have representation of America in that discussion. 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:07.960 So in that sense, I'm very grateful for this job. 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:09.760 It is great to be able to write about things 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:12.040 that people may not think about them. I think the 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:15.680 Crown Act was an example of that, which is piece 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:21.040 of legislation that passed the House that prohibits employment discrimination 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:27.440 based on one's natural hairstyle, and that really impacts black 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:30.520 and brown women and men in a very specific way, 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:34.560 because we have long been taught I know, I've heard 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:37.760 this that the natural texture of our hair is unprofessional, 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:41.480 you know, or it's a hazard, it's a risk somehow. Yes, 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:46.440 we all remember the video of Andrew Johnson, that high 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:50.000 school wrestler who was on the sidelines and had someone 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:53.920 cut off his locks because they violated a rule. I 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:57.680 remember seeing that and crying. But I would see other 0:08:57.679 --> 0:08:59.760 people who I knew and respected on Twitter saying this 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:01.480 is a big deal, like why are we even talking 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:05.119 about this. They just did not have that understanding about 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:07.800 how that is a form of racism and how that 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:10.520 impacts people, and so being able to talk about that 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:13.960 and educate people in a real, genuine way is really 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:15.880 important to me, and I'm grateful for that. 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:18.960 Yeah. Absolutely. I mean you talk about having made the 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:22.000 decision to go natural ten years ago. I made a 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:24.120 similar decision. I don't know how many years ago. But 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:26.199 I was so broke when I moved to New York 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:29.120 from Georgia that I literally could not afford the creamy crack. 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:31.160 It was too expensive for me here in New York. 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:34.280 And I would go longer and longer in between sessions, 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:36.240 and then I started to see my curls and I 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:38.640 was like, these look pretty cool. What if I just 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:41.440 kept growing it out? And at the time, I thought, oh, 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:45.280 I'm going to save so much money. That's a joke. 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:50.400 Correct the number of products it takes, Babe, y'all have 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:54.559 no idea the financial commitment to natural hair care of 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:57.680 But anyway, I digress. I was talking to another reporter 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:01.640 at CNN about a story and they off handedly asked, 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:04.000 you know, have you ever had any issues with your 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:06.960 hair going through because my background's and journalism, and I 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:09.240 was like, no, not really, But then you know how 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:11.000 you go through something and you just kind of like 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:13.160 bury it I guess in a way, or you just 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:14.959 try to like, I mean, it's what so many of 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:17.400 us do. You just you don't clock it at the time. 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:20.120 You're just like, oh, okay, that happened. And I had 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:22.640 this just this memory come back to me, come rushing 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:25.240 back from when I was at I was a writer 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:29.000 and sometimes on air at Yahoo Finance, early in my 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:32.440 journalism career, and they had a man, a white man, 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.200 come in as an image consultant. And it was during 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:38.719 this period of transition. And I imagine if you were transitioning, 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:40.920 you know, when you have natural hair, it is a 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:43.720 whole journey in and of that self. That transition is painful, 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:47.520 it's janky. You don't feel good about. At least I'll 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:49.679 speak for myself. It was very hard to be in 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:52.000 that in between stage, you know, throw it up in 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:55.360 a bun and try to smooth down the curls and whatever. 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:58.679 And he was looking at footage of me from earlier 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:03.800 in my career at Yahoo, and I was straight, you know, pinned, straight, relaxed. 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:06.360 I'm not even wearing glasses. I was like very much 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:08.200 what I thought the image had to be. And I 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:10.560 was in the middle of this process of transitioning, and 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:13.920 he looked at me and was like, is that you like? Clearly? 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:16.440 You know, He's like, that's that doesn't look like you. 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:18.360 You don't look like that anymore. That's a great look 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:23.199 and like And meanwhile, this guy looked like he spent 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:25.440 many years living in his mom's basement. I do not 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:29.959 know how this man became. I don't even remember his name. 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:31.400 I'm just gonna call him Jeff. It's all I can 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:33.559 think of. How did he get the job of a 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:36.640 pin of image consultant? How did he get permission to 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:39.480 make me feel so shitty about the way? You know? 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:41.800 And that's just like, I don't want that for any 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:43.480 other black women to go through. Do you feel like 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:45.640 things have gotten better? I mean, you're on TV now, 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:48.720 you're not just frightening. Do you feel like it's been 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:49.960 getting better for us? 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:53.120 I feel like there has been progress, But like in 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:56.080 many areas, there is much progress to go just by 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:59.120 way of the fact that people didn't even realize. People 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:02.000 outside of our communities didn't realize that this was even 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:08.280 a thing. One reason why I have even after I 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:11.120 chose to go natural, sometimes I'd do a blowout or something. 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:13.480 I figure you know, I can do my looks as 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:16.880 I please, But once I started doing television, I made 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:19.280 a conscious decision that I would never blow out or 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:22.880 straighten my hair on TV because I thought especially and 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:25.520 this really started when I was on guest hosting the 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:28.200 c SPAN Morning Call. In show, you get collars from 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:30.560 all over the country, all over the world, and like, 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:34.120 it's important that the people in Nebraska see what my 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:37.760 hair looks like. It's important for the people in Boise, Idoh, 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:43.360 every place to see what natural hair looks like in 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:46.720 their living rooms as they're having their coffee. So that 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:51.600 this can stop, so that this idea that that's not 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:56.640 acceptable in media, in news, it's okay. Like when I 0:12:56.720 --> 0:13:00.160 was in a journalism school, there were still people telling, 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:02.920 you know, black women, you need to relax your hair, 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:04.920 You need to have a look that is acceptable for 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:07.800 TV news. You need to be accepted in people's living rooms, 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:10.920 and that essentially meant doing everything you can to adhere 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:16.120 to a Eurocentric beauty standard. And that's really appalling. In 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:20.280 so many spaces, we are forced to assimilate and adhere 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:23.760 to a standard created by someone else, for someone else, 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:27.040 and we're the ones who are asked to change ourselves 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:29.760 as opposed to the other way around, other people learning 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:31.440 to accept us, and I didn't want to be a 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:33.440 part of that, so that was important to me. I 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:36.280 think now you see a lot more people wearing their 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:41.040 hair natural, being themselves clothing that it fits us better 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:43.320 because our bodies can be different. I mean, so many 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:46.600 things are beginning to change. I still think there's. 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:49.320 A way to go. I thought about often, how because 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:52.160 I was a senior director at my company. Yes, sure 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:54.280 I wasn't the CEO or anything like that, but I 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:57.120 was able to set a tone and the level of 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:00.800 is acceptability the right word, but I felt like anyone 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:02.800 who joined my team, and my team was like nearly 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:06.320 half half bipoc. Intentionally, on my part, I was like, 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:08.520 I'm gonna be the quiet, sleeper cell that's going to 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:10.319 be hiring these black and brown people and they're not 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:11.960 gonna know I'm doing it, and I'm gonna do it 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:15.880 that because I was representing and I was there my 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:18.800 natural hair, that at least the signal would be sent 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:20.840 that this is okay. I'm gonna make it okay. And 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:25.000 that's why I feel like so passionate and dedicated to 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:31.040 more women of color in positions of power, putting yourself 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:33.680 out there and all of that. And I don't even 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:35.560 know where I'm going with this, but just to say 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:39.600 thank you, it does matter. And I tell you right now. 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:41.680 When I dropped myself off at his daycare, which is 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:43.880 mostly white, because this is like I'm in the burbs now, 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:46.440 the number of little boys and girls who come out 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:49.360 and stare at my hair and point at it. You 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:52.760 really like, as I'm like one of the only black moms. 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:55.280 I think I saw a black mom last week. I'm 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:57.800 not kidding. I feel like a zoo animal sometimes. 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:00.240 When somebody touched my hair on the subway and I 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:04.320 was just tripping, you know, like it it's like, this 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:06.240 is not a petting zoo, Like what are you doing? 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:09.600 They're too short to touch it, but I can. But 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:14.520 they're kids, you know, too short. But I make sure 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.880 I smile big and I say hello, and I'm like, yep, 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:21.520 this is what moms look like too. But you never 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:24.320 it it really is. I mean, I don't, and it 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:27.800 sucks because you know, you think I may be the 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:30.320 only black woman they've seen today, you know what I mean. 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:34.600 And it's not okay. But that's where we live in Okay. 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:37.080 Be a fan. I'll be right back with more of 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:41.280 my conversation with Kimberly at Can Store from the Boston Globe. 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:43.480 All right, be a fan. I am back. So let's 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:46.640 jump back into my conversation with Kimberly Atkins Store from 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:49.240 the Boston Globe. So you write about a lot of 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:51.440 what you write about is and you also your podcast 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:53.800 I'm going to talk about that is the intersection of 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:57.880 law and the news and politics, Am I correct? So 0:15:58.040 --> 0:15:58.520 what is? 0:15:58.560 --> 0:15:58.680 So? 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:01.760 What cites you about that space? Because I know a 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:04.440 lot of people having come through this election, especially black women, 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:08.280 are just like tired. But what drives you and motivates 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:09.960 you to cover this area? Yeah? 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:12.760 I mean I was tired too, but that sort of 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:16.760 reinforces the importance of all of this, right, I mean, 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:19.400 So I was a lawyer. I was a lawyer before 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:21.240 I was a journalist, what kind of I mean. I 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:23.600 wrote for my college newspaper and stuff, and I really 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:26.080 loved journalism in college. I majored in journalism in college. 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:27.600 But I knew I was going to law school. And 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:30.760 I practiced law for a while, and I realized that 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.720 it was not for me. For a lot of reasons. 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:35.600 I just think that was not you know, sometimes you 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:37.640 were in a career and you realize that that wasn't 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:39.760 the right choice for you and that there are other options. 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:41.920 And I was still in my twenties. I thought it 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:44.200 was a good idea for me to explore other options 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:47.520 before committing to something that might make me unhappy in 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:51.520 the long term. It was not specifically race issues that 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:54.920 chased me away from practicing law, even though I was 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:58.920 a civil litigation attorney in Boston in which I could 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:04.479 go weeks without seeing another black person in the legal space. 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:07.800 I worked for a wonderful employer, but I would go 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:09.959 to court to argue a case and sometimes be directed 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:12.679 to the criminal division or asked if I'm represented by counsel, 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:15.040 or asked if I was a criminal defendant. But that 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:17.239 wasn't the main reason I stopped. I just knew that 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:21.440 wasn't my bliss, even though I thought the law was interesting. 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:24.560 And so my journalism career, as you said, actually ended 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:27.159 up steering me toward a job covering the US Supreme 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:30.200 Court for the Lawyer's Weekly Papers. 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:30.840 And I loved that. 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:34.720 I loved being on that side, the journalism side, covering 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:38.199 these cases and why they were so important and explaining 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:40.080 that to people. And I was pretty good at doing 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:44.199 that as well. And then as I transitioned away from that, 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:48.720 I got into politics. I never intended to cover politics. 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:50.719 I was actually afraid of it. And I had an 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:52.760 editor when I was at the Boston Herald that said, oh, 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:54.320 I think you'd be good at that. Go, you know, 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:56.560 go to the State House and cover Mitt Romney. And 0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:00.239 I was like, do what now? So I did that 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:02.280 and I really loved it. It was a lot of fun. 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:04.600 And I've since then been able to sort of keep 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:07.160 a hand in both of those places, as well as 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:10.879 covering other national news as well. But that intersection is 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:16.119 really important in understanding how laws are made, what they cover, 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:18.280 what they impact. I mean, take the Crown Act. We 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:23.199 already have a law that prohibits discrimination in workplaces, so 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:28.880 technically it should already it is already illegal for employers 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:32.320 to discriminate against people and not promote them, or demote 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:34.600 them or not hire them because of their hair texture. 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:39.159 But because people are unaware of that, and because an 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:41.040 employer can just say, well, we have the right to 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:44.359 set standards, you know, dress codes, hair codes, whatever we 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:47.120 want to do, and judges will say, hey, I think 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:51.000 that's right. You need an additional law in the ground 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:55.399 Act to say no, no, it includes this. That's how 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:58.760 the legal system works, and explaining to people exactly why 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:01.480 that is when they say, well, why is that isn't 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:04.639 already illegal? Well it is, but sometimes you need that 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:07.560 extra bit of help. The same way with it wasn't 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:14.119 the Emancipation Proclamation that required the end of enslaving people. 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:16.560 It took an amendment to the Constitution, and then it 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:20.719 took states to actually adhere by that amendment to the Constitution. 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:23.120 It took much longer and much more, and you need 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:26.479 people explaining that process and what happens in those early 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:32.359 emancipation abolitionist newspapers like the First Emancipator, like The Liberator 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:34.159 and others. You could I have been going back and 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:36.400 reading them as part of this project, and you actually 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:40.280 see people like William Lord Garrison writing, you know, what 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:43.080 Lincoln did is all is nice, but that's not going 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:46.320 to change anything unless all these other things are done. 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:49.280 And they understood that. And so that's the kind of 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:52.520 the kind of approach that we're taking with the Emancipator 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:55.520 and having that legal background and having the understanding of 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:59.320 the political realities is super valuable to be able to 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:00.320 help bring that to bear. 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:02.879 Yeah, I mean I think as excited as I was 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:05.359 for the possibility of the Crown Act passing, I mean 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:06.960 it's gone through the House now, it hasn't been through 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:10.080 the Senate yet, right, It faces a tough road there. 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:14.199 I yes, because the majority is like razor thin, right, so, 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:17.119 and probably Joe Manchin's going to screw it up somehow, 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:20.760 like he has been lately. But one of the things 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:22.680 about it was I was thinking about it, actually wrote 0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:25.720 about it on LinkedIn because a white colleague of mine, 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:28.159 peer of mine had posted it, shared it, and I 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:31.280 was like, we still got to watch our backs. I mean, 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:34.280 obviously this is a piece of legislation, it does matter symbolically, 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:37.440 but the burden of proof will still be on us, 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:39.159 you know, So if you do feel like you are 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:42.080 being discriminated against because of your hair texture, I know 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:43.760 in some states it already has a lot to be clear, 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:45.919 it's not federal yet, but in some states it is 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:50.040 a law, but keeping a record if there's any comments 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:53.480 or any you know. I think back to that twenty 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:56.119