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Speaker 1: Ba Fam, we have another how to throw back for you,

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Speaker 1: of course we do all month. We're looking back at

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Speaker 1: some of our favorite episodes from days past for memorable

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Speaker 1: guests who unforgettable moment. There's still so much to learn

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Speaker 1: from the b A Vault. Take a listen, will you?

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Speaker 2: Hey? Hey, ba Fam. It's Mandy and I am back

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Speaker 2: with another episode of Brown Ambition. I am so excited

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Speaker 2: to introduce you guys to today's guest. Her name is

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Speaker 2: Kimberly Atkins Store. She's a senior opinion writer and columnist

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Speaker 2: for the Boston Globe. She is the inaugural columnist for

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Speaker 2: The Emancipator, which is a joint independent, anti racist multimedia

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Speaker 2: project from Globe Opinion and the Boston University Center for

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Speaker 2: Anti Racist Research, which I am so glad that that

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Speaker 2: is even a thing that exists, and the author of

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Speaker 2: the Emancipator's new newsletter called Unbound. Now, Kimberly is one

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Speaker 2: of my most illustrious guests yet, y'all, so I'm going

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Speaker 2: to continue with her bio. She's also an MSNBC contributor

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Speaker 2: and co host. She's our podcast sister co host of

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Speaker 2: the Politicon podcast called Hashtag sisters in law. Previously, Kimberly

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Speaker 2: was the first Washington, DC based news correspondent for wbbur

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Speaker 2: So for my NPR Public Radio fanatics, we love that

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Speaker 2: She's also served as the Boston heralds Washington Bureau, chief,

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Speaker 2: guest host of c SPAN's Morning Collins Shows, Washington Journal,

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Speaker 2: and a Supreme Court reporter for Massachusetts Lawyer Weekly. So

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Speaker 2: you have a background in journalism, in law, in all

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Speaker 2: these different facets. I love a multifaceted woman and I

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Speaker 2: cannot wait to get into my conversation. So, without further ado,

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Speaker 2: welcome Kimberly. Thank you so much for joining Brown Ambition.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me, Mandy. I'm excited to be here.

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Speaker 2: So tell me about the Emancipator. It hasn't launched yet.

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Speaker 2: We're kind of a little bit ahead of the curve

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Speaker 2: breaking news for y'all. If you haven't heard of the Emancipator,

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Speaker 2: what can you tell the audience about this incredible new

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Speaker 2: publication and why you decided to be a part of it.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So this sprung out of a conversation with Bina Venkatraman,

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Speaker 3: who was at the time the editorial page editor at

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Speaker 3: The Boston Globe and doctor Ebram Kendy as he was

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Speaker 3: just getting started ramping up bus Center for Anti Racist Research,

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Speaker 3: and they had an online zoom chat and after that

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Speaker 3: they connected. They started talking about abolitionist newspapers at the time,

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Speaker 3: before and during and after the Civil War. And these

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Speaker 3: newspapers didn't just call for the emancipation of the enslaved

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Speaker 3: population of people in America. They had a broader vision,

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Speaker 3: you know. They thought about what it would look like,

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Speaker 3: what it would take to make black people who had

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Speaker 3: been enslaved full and participating citizens in American society, How

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Speaker 3: to get them educated, what they could do, they could

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Speaker 3: start businesses, how they can run for office, how they

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Speaker 3: know not just vote, but run for office. How they

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Speaker 3: can be a fully integrated part of society as a whole.

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Speaker 3: What citizenship really meant. They got the idea to take

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Speaker 3: that tradition and create a new platform to take that

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Speaker 3: same approach and looking at anti racist solutions to the

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Speaker 3: issues we have here and now today, not just rehashing

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Speaker 3: problems or talking about them, but thinking out of the box,

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Speaker 3: thinking about some solutions to the racism that's built into

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Speaker 3: all sorts of systems, not just criminal justice. This grew

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Speaker 3: like a lot of things out of the wake of

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Speaker 3: the lynching of George Floyd, but beyond that, in all

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Speaker 3: sorts of areas, and that's where this project was born.

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Speaker 3: Being brought me on board early on, I was very

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Speaker 3: eager to do so. Since then, we have co editors

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Speaker 3: in chief Deborah Douglas and Amber Payne, who have been

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Speaker 3: steered this project to its launch. And it will launch.

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Speaker 3: I'm very excited to say it's launching very soon. It's

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Speaker 3: launching this month after a lot, a lot of hard

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Speaker 3: work and anticipation, so I'm really excited about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, congratulations. Amber and I go way way back. I

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Speaker 2: can't remember. I feel like black women in journalism in

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Speaker 2: New York, like you know, you just find your way

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Speaker 2: to one another. I'm so glad that you being in Boston.

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Speaker 2: I'm getting to get to know you now. But Amber

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Speaker 2: and I go but way back when she was the

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Speaker 2: first editor in chief of NBC Black, their Black Culture

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Speaker 2: sort of publication. And I think when I had just

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Speaker 2: started Mandy Money, I had just launched my sort of

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Speaker 2: independent business, venturing out into my own this past summer,

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Speaker 2: and Amber and I reconnected and she had told me

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Speaker 2: she had just joined the Emancipator, and I was so

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Speaker 2: excited for her, and then so for her a few

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Speaker 2: months later or feels like, I don't know, who knows

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Speaker 2: what it was sometime last year, but more recently she

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Speaker 2: reached out and she's like, Mandy, we're going to be

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Speaker 2: launching soon, and she invited me to write a piece

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Speaker 2: for the Amanda to pay her as well, which I

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Speaker 2: was so excited to do. And I mean, it's not

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Speaker 2: every day that you get people who are like, hey,

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Speaker 2: can you write about inclusivity, racism in the workplace and

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Speaker 2: the experience of women of color, which that's all I

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Speaker 2: love talking about all day air day here on Brown Ambition.

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Speaker 2: So I'm honored and excited to just be a teeny

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Speaker 2: tiny little piece of the launch of the Emancipator. Talk

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Speaker 2: to me a little bit about your approach to like,

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Speaker 2: there's not a ton I mean, I don't have any

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Speaker 2: stats on this, but if I had to hazard a guests,

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Speaker 2: there aren't very many opinion writers from women of color.

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Speaker 2: You don't see that often in like mainstream publications. It

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Speaker 2: must I don't know if you feel a particular you know,

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Speaker 2: first only different sort of pressure when it comes to

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Speaker 2: your approach as an opinion writer. But can you talk

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Speaker 2: a little bit about your experience and how you got

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Speaker 2: to a place where you're like, Okay, I'm a black woman.

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Speaker 2: I'm actually going to write about issues that are important

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Speaker 2: to us and say it with my full chest, like

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Speaker 2: you've written about the crown at Katanji Brown Jackson. You know,

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Speaker 2: these issues that really affect us.

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Speaker 3: Yes, you know it's interesting. When I met Bina and

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Speaker 3: when she hired me to be a part of Globe Opinion,

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Speaker 3: I had never been on the opinion side of a

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Speaker 3: news publication. I had mostly had entirely been on the

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Speaker 3: news side, writing news, writing analyses of the news, but

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Speaker 3: still in that you know, grounded, fairness based, and not

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Speaker 3: that I'm the things I write now aren't fair, but

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Speaker 3: this idea that when you're on the news side of

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Speaker 3: a publication, it's not about what you think, it's not

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Speaker 3: about you, it's about what you're covering. Whereas on the

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Speaker 3: opinion side, you bring your full self to bear. It's

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Speaker 3: still journalism, it's still deeply reported. You still have to

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Speaker 3: show your work, but you bring all parts of view

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Speaker 3: to bear. And for me, of course, that includes being

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Speaker 3: a black woman in America, not everything that I write

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Speaker 3: comes from a particular that particular part of my perspective.

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Speaker 3: I find it. I'm very grateful that the Boston Globe

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Speaker 3: gives me the idea that gives me the ability to

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Speaker 3: write not only about things that are really important to me,

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Speaker 3: really important to the black community, but also write about,

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Speaker 3: you know, the Russia invasion, also be able to bring

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Speaker 3: to bear my experience covering foreign policy and the law

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Speaker 3: and everything else. Sometimes I feel like I can get pigeonholed,

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Speaker 3: like I'm always the you know, the black commentator on

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Speaker 3: a panel or something like that. Or you can feel

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Speaker 3: when you're a part of a discussion and you sense

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Speaker 3: that you were added because whoever was moderating it realized

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Speaker 3: at the last minute that it's a panel of white men,

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Speaker 3: and it's like, oh, that's we.

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Speaker 2: Need somebody call gim.

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Speaker 3: That's great that they're doing that, that they're trying to

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Speaker 3: be more inclusive, but it should be more organic than that.

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Speaker 3: And I feel like that can sometimes make you the

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Speaker 3: spokesperson for Black America, which I don't enjoy being because

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Speaker 3: I'm not. But I also think it is important to

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Speaker 3: have more people of color at the table in all

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Speaker 3: of these discussions, more women at the table in all

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Speaker 3: these discussions. Any discussion that affects US in America effects

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Speaker 3: all Americans should have representation of America in that discussion.

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Speaker 3: So in that sense, I'm very grateful for this job.

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Speaker 3: It is great to be able to write about things

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Speaker 3: that people may not think about them. I think the

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Speaker 3: Crown Act was an example of that, which is piece

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Speaker 3: of legislation that passed the House that prohibits employment discrimination

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Speaker 3: based on one's natural hairstyle, and that really impacts black

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Speaker 3: and brown women and men in a very specific way,

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Speaker 3: because we have long been taught I know, I've heard

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Speaker 3: this that the natural texture of our hair is unprofessional,

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Speaker 3: you know, or it's a hazard, it's a risk somehow. Yes,

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Speaker 3: we all remember the video of Andrew Johnson, that high

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Speaker 3: school wrestler who was on the sidelines and had someone

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Speaker 3: cut off his locks because they violated a rule. I

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Speaker 3: remember seeing that and crying. But I would see other

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Speaker 3: people who I knew and respected on Twitter saying this

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Speaker 3: is a big deal, like why are we even talking

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Speaker 3: about this. They just did not have that understanding about

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Speaker 3: how that is a form of racism and how that

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Speaker 3: impacts people, and so being able to talk about that

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Speaker 3: and educate people in a real, genuine way is really

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Speaker 3: important to me, and I'm grateful for that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean you talk about having made the

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Speaker 2: decision to go natural ten years ago. I made a

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Speaker 2: similar decision. I don't know how many years ago. But

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Speaker 2: I was so broke when I moved to New York

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Speaker 2: from Georgia that I literally could not afford the creamy crack.

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Speaker 2: It was too expensive for me here in New York.

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Speaker 2: And I would go longer and longer in between sessions,

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Speaker 2: and then I started to see my curls and I

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Speaker 2: was like, these look pretty cool. What if I just

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Speaker 2: kept growing it out? And at the time, I thought, oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to save so much money. That's a joke.

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Speaker 2: Correct the number of products it takes, Babe, y'all have

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Speaker 2: no idea the financial commitment to natural hair care of

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Speaker 2: But anyway, I digress. I was talking to another reporter

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Speaker 2: at CNN about a story and they off handedly asked,

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Speaker 2: you know, have you ever had any issues with your

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Speaker 2: hair going through because my background's and journalism, and I

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Speaker 2: was like, no, not really, But then you know how

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Speaker 2: you go through something and you just kind of like

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Speaker 2: bury it I guess in a way, or you just

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Speaker 2: try to like, I mean, it's what so many of

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Speaker 2: us do. You just you don't clock it at the time.

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Speaker 2: You're just like, oh, okay, that happened. And I had

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Speaker 2: this just this memory come back to me, come rushing

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Speaker 2: back from when I was at I was a writer

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Speaker 2: and sometimes on air at Yahoo Finance, early in my

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Speaker 2: journalism career, and they had a man, a white man,

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Speaker 2: come in as an image consultant. And it was during

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Speaker 2: this period of transition. And I imagine if you were transitioning,

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Speaker 2: you know, when you have natural hair, it is a

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Speaker 2: whole journey in and of that self. That transition is painful,

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Speaker 2: it's janky. You don't feel good about. At least I'll

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Speaker 2: speak for myself. It was very hard to be in

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Speaker 2: that in between stage, you know, throw it up in

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Speaker 2: a bun and try to smooth down the curls and whatever.

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Speaker 2: And he was looking at footage of me from earlier

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Speaker 2: in my career at Yahoo, and I was straight, you know, pinned, straight, relaxed.

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Speaker 2: I'm not even wearing glasses. I was like very much

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Speaker 2: what I thought the image had to be. And I

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Speaker 2: was in the middle of this process of transitioning, and

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Speaker 2: he looked at me and was like, is that you like? Clearly?

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Speaker 2: You know, He's like, that's that doesn't look like you.

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Speaker 2: You don't look like that anymore. That's a great look

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Speaker 2: and like And meanwhile, this guy looked like he spent

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Speaker 2: many years living in his mom's basement. I do not

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Speaker 2: know how this man became. I don't even remember his name.

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Speaker 2: I'm just gonna call him Jeff. It's all I can

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Speaker 2: think of. How did he get the job of a

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Speaker 2: pin of image consultant? How did he get permission to

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Speaker 2: make me feel so shitty about the way? You know?

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Speaker 2: And that's just like, I don't want that for any

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Speaker 2: other black women to go through. Do you feel like

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Speaker 2: things have gotten better? I mean, you're on TV now,

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Speaker 2: you're not just frightening. Do you feel like it's been

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Speaker 2: getting better for us?

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Speaker 3: I feel like there has been progress, But like in

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Speaker 3: many areas, there is much progress to go just by

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Speaker 3: way of the fact that people didn't even realize. People

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Speaker 3: outside of our communities didn't realize that this was even

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Speaker 3: a thing. One reason why I have even after I

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Speaker 3: chose to go natural, sometimes I'd do a blowout or something.

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Speaker 3: I figure you know, I can do my looks as

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Speaker 3: I please, But once I started doing television, I made

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Speaker 3: a conscious decision that I would never blow out or

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Speaker 3: straighten my hair on TV because I thought especially and

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Speaker 3: this really started when I was on guest hosting the

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Speaker 3: c SPAN Morning Call. In show, you get collars from

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Speaker 3: all over the country, all over the world, and like,

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Speaker 3: it's important that the people in Nebraska see what my

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Speaker 3: hair looks like. It's important for the people in Boise, Idoh,

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Speaker 3: every place to see what natural hair looks like in

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Speaker 3: their living rooms as they're having their coffee. So that

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Speaker 3: this can stop, so that this idea that that's not

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Speaker 3: acceptable in media, in news, it's okay. Like when I

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Speaker 3: was in a journalism school, there were still people telling,

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Speaker 3: you know, black women, you need to relax your hair,

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Speaker 3: You need to have a look that is acceptable for

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Speaker 3: TV news. You need to be accepted in people's living rooms,

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Speaker 3: and that essentially meant doing everything you can to adhere

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Speaker 3: to a Eurocentric beauty standard. And that's really appalling. In

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Speaker 3: so many spaces, we are forced to assimilate and adhere

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Speaker 3: to a standard created by someone else, for someone else,

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Speaker 3: and we're the ones who are asked to change ourselves

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Speaker 3: as opposed to the other way around, other people learning

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Speaker 3: to accept us, and I didn't want to be a

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Speaker 3: part of that, so that was important to me. I

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Speaker 3: think now you see a lot more people wearing their

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Speaker 3: hair natural, being themselves clothing that it fits us better

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Speaker 3: because our bodies can be different. I mean, so many

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Speaker 3: things are beginning to change. I still think there's.

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Speaker 2: A way to go. I thought about often, how because

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Speaker 2: I was a senior director at my company. Yes, sure

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Speaker 2: I wasn't the CEO or anything like that, but I

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Speaker 2: was able to set a tone and the level of

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Speaker 2: is acceptability the right word, but I felt like anyone

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Speaker 2: who joined my team, and my team was like nearly

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Speaker 2: half half bipoc. Intentionally, on my part, I was like,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna be the quiet, sleeper cell that's going to

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Speaker 2: be hiring these black and brown people and they're not

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Speaker 2: gonna know I'm doing it, and I'm gonna do it

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Speaker 2: that because I was representing and I was there my

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Speaker 2: natural hair, that at least the signal would be sent

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Speaker 2: that this is okay. I'm gonna make it okay. And

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Speaker 2: that's why I feel like so passionate and dedicated to

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Speaker 2: more women of color in positions of power, putting yourself

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Speaker 2: out there and all of that. And I don't even

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Speaker 2: know where I'm going with this, but just to say

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Speaker 2: thank you, it does matter. And I tell you right now.

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Speaker 2: When I dropped myself off at his daycare, which is

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Speaker 2: mostly white, because this is like I'm in the burbs now,

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Speaker 2: the number of little boys and girls who come out

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Speaker 2: and stare at my hair and point at it. You

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Speaker 2: really like, as I'm like one of the only black moms.

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Speaker 2: I think I saw a black mom last week. I'm

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Speaker 2: not kidding. I feel like a zoo animal sometimes.

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Speaker 3: When somebody touched my hair on the subway and I

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Speaker 3: was just tripping, you know, like it it's like, this

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Speaker 3: is not a petting zoo, Like what are you doing?

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Speaker 2: They're too short to touch it, but I can. But

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Speaker 2: they're kids, you know, too short. But I make sure

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Speaker 2: I smile big and I say hello, and I'm like, yep,

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Speaker 2: this is what moms look like too. But you never

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Speaker 2: it it really is. I mean, I don't, and it

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Speaker 2: sucks because you know, you think I may be the

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Speaker 2: only black woman they've seen today, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: And it's not okay. But that's where we live in Okay.

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Speaker 2: Be a fan. I'll be right back with more of

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Speaker 2: my conversation with Kimberly at Can Store from the Boston Globe.

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Speaker 2: All right, be a fan. I am back. So let's

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Speaker 2: jump back into my conversation with Kimberly Atkins Store from

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Speaker 2: the Boston Globe. So you write about a lot of

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Speaker 2: what you write about is and you also your podcast

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Speaker 2: I'm going to talk about that is the intersection of

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Speaker 2: law and the news and politics, Am I correct? So

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Speaker 2: what is?

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Speaker 1: So?

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Speaker 2: What cites you about that space? Because I know a

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Speaker 2: lot of people having come through this election, especially black women,

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Speaker 2: are just like tired. But what drives you and motivates

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Speaker 2: you to cover this area? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I mean I was tired too, but that sort of

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Speaker 3: reinforces the importance of all of this, right, I mean,

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Speaker 3: So I was a lawyer. I was a lawyer before

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Speaker 3: I was a journalist, what kind of I mean. I

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Speaker 3: wrote for my college newspaper and stuff, and I really

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Speaker 3: loved journalism in college. I majored in journalism in college.

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Speaker 3: But I knew I was going to law school. And

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Speaker 3: I practiced law for a while, and I realized that

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Speaker 3: it was not for me. For a lot of reasons.

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Speaker 3: I just think that was not you know, sometimes you

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Speaker 3: were in a career and you realize that that wasn't

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Speaker 3: the right choice for you and that there are other options.

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Speaker 3: And I was still in my twenties. I thought it

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Speaker 3: was a good idea for me to explore other options

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Speaker 3: before committing to something that might make me unhappy in

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Speaker 3: the long term. It was not specifically race issues that

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Speaker 3: chased me away from practicing law, even though I was

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Speaker 3: a civil litigation attorney in Boston in which I could

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Speaker 3: go weeks without seeing another black person in the legal space.

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Speaker 3: I worked for a wonderful employer, but I would go

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Speaker 3: to court to argue a case and sometimes be directed

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Speaker 3: to the criminal division or asked if I'm represented by counsel,

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Speaker 3: or asked if I was a criminal defendant. But that

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Speaker 3: wasn't the main reason I stopped. I just knew that

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Speaker 3: wasn't my bliss, even though I thought the law was interesting.

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Speaker 3: And so my journalism career, as you said, actually ended

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Speaker 3: up steering me toward a job covering the US Supreme

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Speaker 3: Court for the Lawyer's Weekly Papers.

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Speaker 2: And I loved that.

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Speaker 3: I loved being on that side, the journalism side, covering

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Speaker 3: these cases and why they were so important and explaining

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Speaker 3: that to people. And I was pretty good at doing

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Speaker 3: that as well. And then as I transitioned away from that,

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Speaker 3: I got into politics. I never intended to cover politics.

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Speaker 3: I was actually afraid of it. And I had an

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Speaker 3: editor when I was at the Boston Herald that said, oh,

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Speaker 3: I think you'd be good at that. Go, you know,

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Speaker 3: go to the State House and cover Mitt Romney. And

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Speaker 3: I was like, do what now? So I did that

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Speaker 3: and I really loved it. It was a lot of fun.

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Speaker 3: And I've since then been able to sort of keep

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Speaker 3: a hand in both of those places, as well as

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Speaker 3: covering other national news as well. But that intersection is

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Speaker 3: really important in understanding how laws are made, what they cover,

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Speaker 3: what they impact. I mean, take the Crown Act. We

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Speaker 3: already have a law that prohibits discrimination in workplaces, so

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Speaker 3: technically it should already it is already illegal for employers

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Speaker 3: to discriminate against people and not promote them, or demote

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Speaker 3: them or not hire them because of their hair texture.

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Speaker 3: But because people are unaware of that, and because an

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Speaker 3: employer can just say, well, we have the right to

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Speaker 3: set standards, you know, dress codes, hair codes, whatever we

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Speaker 3: want to do, and judges will say, hey, I think

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Speaker 3: that's right. You need an additional law in the ground

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Speaker 3: Act to say no, no, it includes this. That's how

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Speaker 3: the legal system works, and explaining to people exactly why

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Speaker 3: that is when they say, well, why is that isn't

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Speaker 3: already illegal? Well it is, but sometimes you need that

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Speaker 3: extra bit of help. The same way with it wasn't

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Speaker 3: the Emancipation Proclamation that required the end of enslaving people.

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Speaker 3: It took an amendment to the Constitution, and then it

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Speaker 3: took states to actually adhere by that amendment to the Constitution.

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Speaker 3: It took much longer and much more, and you need

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Speaker 3: people explaining that process and what happens in those early

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Speaker 3: emancipation abolitionist newspapers like the First Emancipator, like The Liberator

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Speaker 3: and others. You could I have been going back and

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Speaker 3: reading them as part of this project, and you actually

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Speaker 3: see people like William Lord Garrison writing, you know, what

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Speaker 3: Lincoln did is all is nice, but that's not going

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Speaker 3: to change anything unless all these other things are done.

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Speaker 3: And they understood that. And so that's the kind of

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Speaker 3: the kind of approach that we're taking with the Emancipator

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Speaker 3: and having that legal background and having the understanding of

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Speaker 3: the political realities is super valuable to be able to

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Speaker 3: help bring that to bear.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think as excited as I was

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Speaker 2: for the possibility of the Crown Act passing, I mean

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Speaker 2: it's gone through the House now, it hasn't been through

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Speaker 2: the Senate yet, right, It faces a tough road there.

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Speaker 2: I yes, because the majority is like razor thin, right, so,

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Speaker 2: and probably Joe Manchin's going to screw it up somehow,

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Speaker 2: like he has been lately. But one of the things

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Speaker 2: about it was I was thinking about it, actually wrote

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Speaker 2: about it on LinkedIn because a white colleague of mine,

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Speaker 2: peer of mine had posted it, shared it, and I

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Speaker 2: was like, we still got to watch our backs. I mean,

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Speaker 2: obviously this is a piece of legislation, it does matter symbolically,

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Speaker 2: but the burden of proof will still be on us,

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Speaker 2: you know, So if you do feel like you are

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Speaker 2: being discriminated against because of your hair texture, I know

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Speaker 2: in some states it already has a lot to be clear,

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Speaker 2: it's not federal yet, but in some states it is

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Speaker 2: a law, but keeping a record if there's any comments

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Speaker 2: or any you know. I think back to that twenty

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Speaker 2: something year old me who was being told by Jeff

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Speaker 2: that you know, probably going back to relax would be

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Speaker 2: the better, better move for me. Ah man, if I'd

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Speaker 2: only had a record of that conversation. But protecting ourselves

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Speaker 2: and also not being complacent because at this at the

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Speaker 2: end of the day, even with legislation, the bias is

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Speaker 2: so present, people's bias against us, you know, and it

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Speaker 2: doesn't always come so wrapped up in a bow, you know,

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Speaker 2: in terms of discrimination, like we do not want you

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Speaker 2: for this position because we don't think that you're professional

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Speaker 2: enough because you're black and your hair is natural. It's

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Speaker 2: never that easy for us to prove. And that I

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Speaker 2: feel like is the is always the exhausting challenge of

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Speaker 2: it all.

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Speaker 3: It is, and I think that's why conversations like this

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Speaker 3: are so important. I think that's why the emancipator is

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Speaker 3: so important. I don't legislation is not going to save us. Okay,

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Speaker 3: legislation is not going to save us. We have to

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Speaker 3: get through to people. We have to connect with people

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Speaker 3: and let them understand exactly what the impact of things

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Speaker 3: like that, something that may seem so innoculous that just

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Speaker 3: was brushed off by people who have never been impacted

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Speaker 3: by it because I didn't know, they didn't understand, they've

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Speaker 3: never experienced that. And I think, you know, conversations like

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Speaker 3: this just teaching people, letting them see. I mean, for

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Speaker 3: the I don't mean to jump ahead, but the series

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Speaker 3: that I'm working on for the Emancipator is addresses built

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Speaker 3: in racial bias in financial systems, and I think I

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Speaker 3: genuinely believe that the people who will continue to perpetuate it.

430
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 3: A lot of these things were built by design. They

431
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 3: did not want black people to own property to get

432
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:44,399
Speaker 3: wealth to That was by design, going back to antebellum times.

433
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 3: But what I think perpetuates it are people who think

434
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,680
Speaker 3: they're being reasonable or being fair or doing the right thing,

435
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 3: or not understanding how that built in bias works. You know,

436
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 3: people who say, well, well, yes, I want somebody to

437
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,400
Speaker 3: have to prove that they can pay for this house

438
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,199
Speaker 3: if they buy it. That seems fair, right, So they

439
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,880
Speaker 3: put in all of these procedures that are really surgically

440
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 3: targeted toward black folks to keep them from buying that

441
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 3: house or starting that business. Or you know, they say, well,

442
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,400
Speaker 3: I want my neighborhood to be safe, and there should

443
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 3: be ways to ensure that and that gets into redlining

444
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,640
Speaker 3: policies that are designed to keep black people out. It's

445
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,119
Speaker 3: also teaching black people that they're somehow risky. You know,

446
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 3: so many systems, even more so than the criminal justice

447
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 3: system perhaps, where you have this built in idea that

448
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,439
Speaker 3: black people. You know, if you have something like a

449
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:41,399
Speaker 3: police shooting, the justification of that is the subjective threat

450
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,880
Speaker 3: that the police officer felt in that situation. So if

451
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,919
Speaker 3: that police officer believes that black people inherently believes that

452
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 3: black people are more threatening, that's going to justify that right.

453
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 3: Nowhere else is it that clear. As in financial systems,

454
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,360
Speaker 3: where black people are perceived credit risks, Black people are

455
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 3: perceived security risks when they buy a house in your neighborhood.

456
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,919
Speaker 3: Black people are seeing risky business ventures because who's you know,

457
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 3: who's going to buy that product? Black people seen as

458
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,360
Speaker 3: risk and that's built into the system. And I think

459
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 3: people don't understand how that plays out. But when you

460
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:21,360
Speaker 3: explain it in that way, I hope, I hope people

461
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 3: all people will say, Oh, that isn't fair. That's not

462
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 3: how it should work. If you work hard, if you

463
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 3: do what you're supposed to life, liberty and the pursuit

464
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 3: of happiness should be yours too. It shouldn't. You shouldn't

465
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 3: start out at a disadvantage just because of who you are.

466
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,400
Speaker 3: And that's when I'm hoping this series will bring to bear,

467
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 3: will teach people, and hopefully lead to some change.

468
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 2: I didn't know that your series was focused on the

469
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 2: intersection of Black Americans in the financial system. Where do

470
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 2: we begin? I'm absolutely I'm like panting here. Yes, let's

471
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 2: talk about it. I remember last summer, or not even

472
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 2: last sime was it last summer? My co host Tiffany

473
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 2: telling a story of how her home was appraised lower.

474
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 2: She actually had a white friend that she had on

475
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 2: tap to appear at her home as Tiffany in order

476
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 2: to get a higher appraisal when they were trying to

477
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 2: do I think a refinance. And now we're starting to

478
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 2: see more of these really upsetting but important anecdotes from

479
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 2: other black homeowners who are proving our homes have been undervalued.

480
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 2: And I just think of and I live now in

481
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 2: a majority black neighborhood in the suburbs of New York,

482
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 2: which is just this little gem that I hope no

483
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 2: one bugs us, ever bothers us, But I have to

484
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 2: reckon with the fact that my husband and I could

485
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,360
Speaker 2: afford a house here because it's one of the more

486
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 2: cheaper of areas of our county. And I have to

487
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 2: assume it's because it's a large it's been a largely black,

488
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 2: middle class neighborhood, you know, since the nineteen forties. But

489
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 2: talk from of the series where do you even begin? Kim, Like,

490
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 2: where do you begin?

491
00:25:58,480 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 1: Yes, do you have?

492
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 3: I mean that point in itself that just it resonates

493
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 3: so hard. I was talking to someone who is very

494
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 3: well off, started an entrepreneur who is pulling in massive

495
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 3: amounts of money, and even he had that experience about

496
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 3: being quoted a higher interest rate on a house that

497
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 3: he was buying than he was originally given when the

498
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,919
Speaker 3: transaction was still purely online and once.

499
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 2: They saw him.

500
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 3: So that effects that's still happening in the realm of funny,

501
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 3: not funny. I got married last year. My husband is white,

502
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 3: and we are thinking about moving. And one of the

503
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 3: things I've said to him is like, all right, well,

504
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 3: you know you haven't had this experience before. But when

505
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 3: it's time to appraise the house, I think we should

506
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 3: take the pictures down. When you know we are if

507
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 3: there is a situation where you have to go into

508
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 3: the mortgage agent, you'll take the tax returns, and I

509
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 3: want you to go in and it's awful. It's awful too.

510
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 3: I mean, he was appalled, and I'm appalled to I'm

511
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 3: appalled that this is the system. I also don't want

512
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 3: the sky high interest rates, so I'm going to do

513
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 3: what I need to do in the meantime to survive.

514
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 3: But that's the exactly the kind of thing that that

515
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 3: we're talking about, and it is foundationally, especially when it

516
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 3: comes to buying home property. I sort of start with

517
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 3: explaining how preventing black folks from owning land is the

518
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 3: foundational part of all of this, and then I go off.

519
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 3: I go in this series to explore four different areas

520
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 3: where that's just gotten a little bit less attention than

521
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 3: housing discrimination and redlining. One. This one's getting much more

522
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 3: attention now thanks to some lawmakers. But one is student

523
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 3: loan debt. Student loan debt is a massive contributor to

524
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 3: the racial wealth gap because black parents like mine, teach us,

525
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 3: got to go to school. You gotta go to college

526
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 3: if you want to succeed, like you got to work

527
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 3: hard and go to college. Well, college is very expensive.

528
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 3: And then you know, I went to law school, I

529
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 3: became a lawyer. I did the things that I thought

530
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 3: I was supposed to do that landed me six figures

531
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,360
Speaker 3: in debt. And I remembered when I was graduating law

532
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 3: school and I had my exit interview with a financial aid,

533
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 3: talking to a friend of mine afterwards, saying, oh my god,

534
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 3: did you have your exit interview and they just told

535
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 3: you how much money you owe? Isn't that crazy? And

536
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 3: my friends, who were largely white, almost all white, said

537
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 3: what interview? Well, we don't have loans. Our parents paid

538
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,360
Speaker 3: for law school. And I thought, oh, so we graduated.

539
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 3: I'm seeing them buying cars, buying houses, getting married, moving

540
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 3: to the suburbs, and I'm still in my rental, you know,

541
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 3: in Jamaica, plane Boston, barely making ends meet, trying to

542
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 3: make those massive student loan payments the best that I could.

543
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 3: And it's like, Oh, this is what the wealth gap means.

544
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 3: It doesn't just mean what your parents pass on to you.

545
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 3: It's what you have in this life as you're just

546
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 3: trying to get by. And that was sort of what

547
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 3: made me think of this. And I look at credit

548
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 3: reporting the barriers in there access to business capital. Black

549
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 3: people could be building, could be contributing so much more

550
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 3: to the economy if you just let them start businesses

551
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 3: and hire people and put that money back into the

552
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 3: economy and also invest in investment and retirement. The racial

553
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,959
Speaker 3: wealth gap doesn't just harm black and brown people, harms everybody.

554
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 3: It strips trillions of dollars from the gross national product

555
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 3: over our lifetimes. It really is costing everyone money. And

556
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 3: I'm hoping that if I put it that way, like

557
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 3: it's called, you want to stop this from costing you

558
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 3: money in your pocket, then do what you can to

559
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 3: be a part of the solution here.

560
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so grateful that we have that you are

561
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 2: doing this kind of work. It's so so important, and

562
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 2: I hope that a lot of non black people read

563
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 2: it and are moved by it and understand, because I

564
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: bet all those friends of years from law school probably

565
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 2: go through the world thinking I worked hard. I went

566
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 2: to law school. You know, people are mad that they

567
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 2: can't have a house, Well, they should have worked harder.

568
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 2: But if you don't understand the privilege and that whole

569
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: starting line being so so far setback for some people,

570
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 2: how how can you who and you know, the majority

571
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 2: is in power, right, so we need allyship and understanding

572
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 2: from non black and brown people in positions of power.

573
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 2: When they start to care, that's when the change happens.

574
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 2: We saw what happened with George Floyd in the summer

575
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty when enough of the majority started to care,

576
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 2: not just besides us, and it felt extraordinary. But how

577
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 2: can we bring something like that to the same fever

578
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 2: point in the financial sector. It's quiet discrimination, it's nefarious.

579
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 2: It's like a toxic cancer, right, and we understand it,

580
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 2: especially on brown ambition. We understand why it is that

581
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 2: we're doing what we're doing. But it doesn't necessarily always

582
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 2: make headlines. You know. There was that the more recent

583
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 2: one about Wells Fargo with was it Wells Fargo that

584
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 2: discriminated or gave so much more mortgage denials to black

585
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 2: homeowners and any other bank? I think it was recent.

586
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 2: I'll check the facts on that one, if it's Wells

587
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 2: Fargo or not. I just feel like they're the worst

588
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 2: in general, so probably it was them, But it's usually

589
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 2: Wells Fargo, right, But the attention that article was getting,

590
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 2: I'm like, yes, more of this more data to show

591
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 2: how racism pops up for us, absolutely.

592
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 3: And it's also important for us to show solutions. You know,

593
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 3: these are things that we could be doing instead. These

594
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 3: are other paths that people have taken that maybe can

595
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 3: be adapted on a wider scale. These are things that people,

596
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 3: individuals can do to empower themselves in this system. So

597
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 3: we don't want it just to be, like I said,

598
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 3: a regurgitation of the problem. We want this to be

599
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 3: a playbooks and also start a conversation. Look, I don't

600
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 3: have all the answers. Even with all the reporting that

601
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 3: I did, all the people that I talked to about solutions,

602
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 3: this is not exhaustive. So I hope once this comes

603
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 3: out more people will say, hey, you know, we know

604
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 3: that problem and this is a solution that we've tried,

605
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 3: or this is a new program that we are taking on.

606
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,479
Speaker 3: So that we can continue this conversation and come up

607
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 3: with more solutions. It is not a stagnant thing, and

608
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 3: so that we can not only educate people about these barriers,

609
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 3: but also empower them, including all stakeholders, everybody from the

610
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 3: banks of America down to your individual self at your

611
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 3: kitchen table, trying to make ends meet at the end

612
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 3: of each month. What everybody can do, what is in

613
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 3: everybody's power, was everybody's responsibility to making sure that that realization,

614
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 3: that ideal in the Declaration of Independence, life, liberty, and

615
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 3: the pursuit of happiness is real for everyone. That's such

616
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 3: a wonderful place to end our conversation. I wish we

617
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 3: had more time. I want everyone to not walk, but

618
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 3: run to the show notes right now, because we're going

619
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 3: to put a link to Kimberly's newsletter Unbound in there,

620
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 3: and also a link to where you can find out

621
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 3: more about the Emancipator, which will be launching this month

622
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 3: in April. Congrats Kim on the Emancipator, on Unbound and

623
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 3: all your success. Thank you so much for joining Brown Ambition.

624
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 3: It's been such a wonderful conversation. I've loved having you on.

625
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me on. I've loved

626
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:11,719
Speaker 3: talking to you.

627
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 2: What an amazing throwback episode. I love these little trips

628
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 2: down memory lane with my bestie Tiffany. Make sure be

629
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 2: a fan that you check out Brown Ambition Podcast every Monday, Wednesday,

630
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 2: and Friday until next time. Bye.