1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:04,800 Speaker 1: We are so invested in this idea of gender, and 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: you know that, you know that it really is more 3 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 1: important to us to uphold rigid ideas around gender and 4 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: what it is than even to make money. Right, We're 5 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: willing to lose money, um in order to to uphold 6 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: this this system. There are no Girls on the Internet. 7 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: As a production of I Heart Radio and Unboss Creative, 8 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: I'm brigittad and this is there are no girls on 9 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 1: the Internet. Something I have long been stune by are 10 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:42,520 Speaker 1: all the different ways that things like misogyny and really 11 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: rigid assumptions around things like gender hurt everyone, not just women. Now, 12 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,480 Speaker 1: some ways are super obvious, but others are a little 13 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: more subtle, like the ways misogyny has held back innovation 14 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: when it comes to technology. In her fantastic book called 15 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: Mother of Invention, How Good Ideas Get Ignored in a 16 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 1: World Built for Men, Swedish journalist and author Katrine Marsal 17 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: uncovers how massogyny has stalled innovation. And she starts by 18 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: looking at the history of the wheelie suitcase. So we've 19 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: had the wheel for some five thousand years, and we've 20 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: had suitcases since the nineteenth century, but we didn't get 21 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: technology to put wheels on suitcases until the seventies. Why. Frustratingly, 22 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: the answer lies in gender. Katrine explains what it tells 23 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 1: us about all the different ways that gender assumptions have 24 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: held us all back. It's this classic mystery of innovation 25 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: um that many economists have talked about, which is that 26 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: we invented the wheel five thousand years ago, and we 27 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: apply this technology of the wheel to a lot of 28 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: things throughout the ages, with you know, at least one 29 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:00,040 Speaker 1: very famous exception, which was the suitcase. Actually suit a 30 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: sis didn't get wheels until nineteen seventy two, which was 31 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: after we put two men on the moon. So this 32 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: has been this mystery of innovation. How was this possible? 33 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: We think we're so clever, we maybe we tend to 34 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: focus too much on the technically difficult problems like putting 35 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: two guys on the moon and these obvious solutions. You know, 36 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:22,799 Speaker 1: let's combine this five thousand year old technology of the 37 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: wheel with this problem of the suitcase being quite heavy 38 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: and awkward to carry, and you have a great product. 39 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: You know, why didn't anybody sort of see that earlier? 40 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: And there's been a lot of theories around this. I 41 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: but what everybody has has missed is actually the real explanation. 42 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: And it didn't take me very long to find, actually 43 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 1: because not because I'm terribly clever or anything, but because 44 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: I was thinking in terms of of gender actually, and 45 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: I looked in started looking in newspaper archives, and pretty 46 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: soon found women rolling suitcase as well before in nineteen 47 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: seventy two. And then the whole story kind of became 48 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: very clear, just with you know, some additional research, which 49 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,239 Speaker 1: is that you know, there were products supplying the technology 50 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: of the wheel to to the suitcase well before nineteen sevento. 51 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: Most of them were niche products for women, and as 52 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: such not taken seriously by the luggage industry, who thought 53 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: they were making luggage for businessmen who were all men. 54 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: And there was this idea that it was absolutely ridiculous 55 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: for any man to ever roll a suitcase because masculinity 56 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: is something that always needs to be proven, um so, 57 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: and one way that men have to prove that they 58 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: were men were by carrying heavy luggage around um and 59 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: the other gender dissumption that prevented people from saying, you 60 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: know the potential of this product was that yes, women 61 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: might buy the suitcase with wheels, but they're not a 62 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: big enough market because women don't travel alone anyway. Um, 63 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: And that's actually the main explanation to why we didn't 64 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: get wheels on suitcases earlier, and even when it was 65 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: invented in the seventies. People, you know, at first, no 66 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: American department store wanted to sell this product because of 67 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: this reason, no man will ever buy it. You have 68 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: all of these very interesting examples of the ways that 69 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 1: sexism and masogyny and all of these assumptions about gender 70 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: and masculinity have really stalled innovation. You talk about, you know, 71 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: how electric cars were when they were first invented. They 72 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: were sort of seen as girly because they were safe 73 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: and a little bit slower. You know, how have you 74 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: seen sexism and masogyny and assumptions about masculinity and men 75 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: hold back innovation? Yeah? I think it happens all the time. 76 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: And you know, the electric car example that you mentioned 77 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: from my book was something that obviously really fascinated me 78 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: because that is okay, you know, fine, we didn't get 79 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: wheels on suitcases earlier. We can live with this, but um, 80 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: but this decision that we made collectively, you know, let's 81 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: build a whole world for gasoline driven car ours. You know, 82 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: let's not go with the electric car, because electric cars 83 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: were around already at the dawn of the automobile era 84 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundred's, and you know, as you say, 85 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 1: one of the reasons was, you know, they were marketed 86 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 1: to women, and then many male consumers didn't want it. 87 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: And many people are not aware of this that even 88 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: in that sort of massive decision you know, collectively made, 89 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 1: you know, let's go with gasoline or petrol instead of 90 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: instead of electricity for it for cars, there were gendered 91 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: assumptions in play. And I just think it's it's not 92 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: interative to us, you know, because I don't. I don't 93 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: think we think of gender biases. Something we think of 94 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,799 Speaker 1: gender bias is something about sort of soft and maybe 95 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: not that important at least not when it comes to 96 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 1: like big hard things like technology and innovation. And what 97 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: I want to show with Mother Inventioned my book was 98 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: that they have everything to do with technology and innovation 99 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: and they hold us back and in very very concrete ways. 100 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: And that's why I try to use these these very 101 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: concrete and hopefully enlightening examples from history. Yeah, you do 102 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: that so beautifully, and I think it's one of those 103 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: things that it is for me at once kind of hopeful, 104 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 1: because I'm like, oh, if we can get to a 105 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: place where these highly gendered assumptions, where we're less tethered 106 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 1: to them, we will all benefit. But then I'm like, 107 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: but are we actually ever really going to do that? 108 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 1: Probably not. I'm so happy that you said the book 109 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: made you hopeful, because a lot of people so. It's 110 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: been translated into quite a few languages. It was originally 111 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: written in Swedish. I am Swedish, but it's um and 112 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 1: so many people have written to me saying that the 113 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: book made them really, really depressed, which was not my 114 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: my sort of idea when writing it at all, because 115 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: I wanted to make it into this sort of hopeful 116 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: story of you know, look, we're we're actually just innovating 117 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: with at least one hand tied behind our facts, and 118 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: look at all the potential we could unleash if we 119 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: did things differently. But I think because I do go 120 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: quite deep into history, and I talk about, you know, 121 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 1: how the definition of technology has always followed our definition 122 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: of masculinity, and how whenever women have created technology, we 123 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,679 Speaker 1: don't see it as technology, and I go quite deep 124 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: in the book, and I think many people have taken 125 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: that as oh my gosh, these problems they go so 126 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: far and so deep with thousands of years of history 127 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: the whole way we look at technology and innovation, and 128 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: that has made them depressed. And I apologize for that 129 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: bumming out a whole like people across the globe. Yeah, yeah, 130 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: I can see now. I'm quite a cheerful person, I 131 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: think personally so, so it's just, you know, getting all 132 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: these emails about, oh, you made me so depressed. Um, yeah, 133 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: I'll think about that for the next book. So it's 134 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: difficult to not get a little depressed when you look 135 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: at the numbers around venture capital. Who has it to 136 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: give out and who gets it? Spoiler alert, it's not 137 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: a lot of women, and even less women of color 138 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: and black women. Katrine says that this too keeps us 139 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,679 Speaker 1: from having a future where more people are actually served. 140 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: I do think these things do go very deep, and 141 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: I think it's it's necessary to to know it. I mean, 142 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: we are very we are losing out on innovations all 143 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: the time now, I mean, I'm sure listeners of of 144 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: this podcast are are very aware of things like, you know, 145 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: the venture capital gender gap, and just how little venture 146 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: capital goes to to women, and how the you know, 147 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: the absolute majority of the venture capital goes to white women. 148 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: And I mean here in Britain it's zero points zero 149 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: two percent able venture capital that that goes to black 150 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 1: British women for example. I mean that is such a 151 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: I mean, the numbers are just so brutal. Um And 152 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: you know, in the book, I go into you know, 153 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: what I believe are the problems with the venture capital system, 154 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: and you know, and why why this discrimination keeps happening, 155 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: and and again how that goes to the heart of 156 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: the whole sort of financial construction of it, and you 157 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: know why that therefore that needs to change. But these 158 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: are very very big and tricky problems. I guess you 159 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: can't sort of run away from that. Yeah, you know, 160 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:11,199 Speaker 1: you talk about how this is connected to venture capital 161 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: and how few women and even fewer women of color 162 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: and black women get venture capital. Yet and then it's 163 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: mailed white, mailed white male decision makers who are you know, 164 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: dolling it out? And yet you point out that eighty 165 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: percent of consumer decisions are made by women, and so 166 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: I guess, like, what does that mean for innovation and 167 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:32,959 Speaker 1: how do we solve that? Yeah, I mean eighty percent 168 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: of consumer decisions in the global economy are influenced by women. 169 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: So yeah, which is which is enormous. Um. So there 170 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: is there is a huge market here and as you say, 171 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: there should be somebody wants to make money who wants 172 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: to tup into that. But it's not happening enough. I 173 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 1: think the way to um to solve it. And again 174 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: this is I guess this is my problem as an 175 00:09:54,760 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: author is is to just redo the whole financialist Um. No, 176 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: I mean I do think, I mean, I do think 177 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: that a lot can be done within venture capital to 178 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: sort of address these biases. But I do think the 179 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: way it's set up and the type of ideas and 180 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: the incentive structures that are built into this system. I mean, 181 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: in the book, I talk about how you know it 182 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 1: comes from the whaling industry and um um, and you 183 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: know it's it's it's set up in a way that 184 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 1: that the ideas that the business ideas that that for example, 185 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 1: women have do do not just not fit. So I 186 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: do think we need and that's why it's such a 187 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: problem that venture capital has become so dominant because I 188 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: think inherently discriminates against women, which is why we need 189 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: other types of models, and they are out there, but 190 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: you know, they're not at scale yet. Yeah. I think 191 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: it's one of those things where the system is so 192 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: fundamentally broken and flawed, and is not just flawed and 193 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: broken for people who are marginalized, but also everybody loses 194 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: out when we lose that on these innovations, Like so 195 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: many things, I'm thinking, why hasn't somebody invented this, and 196 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 1: it's like, oh, well, because it's probably a product that 197 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: solves an issue for women or people of color. And 198 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: you know, I think that it's it's we're missing out 199 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:20,479 Speaker 1: on opportunities to live in a fundamentally better society because 200 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: of things like misogyny and assumptions around gender. It's just 201 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 1: holding us back in these huge ways. Yeah, absolutely absolutely, 202 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: And I think that's why. I mean, I hope that 203 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: these historical examples can be inspiring instead of depressing, which 204 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: is you know, just just think of that gender bias 205 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: hadn't existed around electric cars a hundred and twenty years ago, 206 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: you know, just imagine how different the world could have 207 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: actually looked. I mean, you can hear that story and 208 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: get depressed that you know, why didn't we go in 209 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: this direction and not that direction? But it can also 210 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: hopefully show you the possibility in this Yeah, that's the 211 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,319 Speaker 1: exact thing that I found hopeful that I connected with. 212 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: But it is a bit depressing the things. Oh, do 213 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: you all want to live in a world with like 214 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: a better climate ecosystem? No, and we don't want that. 215 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: We'll take the sexism instead. A real man needs a 216 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: noisy car, Yeah, exactly, And I mean that is also 217 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: what's and I try to make it funny, you know, 218 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: in the book, even because some of these things you 219 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: do have to laugh at and in retrospect it's very 220 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: easy to do. You know. You know, why can't a 221 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: man roll a suitcase with wheels? You know why? You know? 222 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: But um, um, but it is it is interesting how 223 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: we are so invested in this idea of gender and 224 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: you know that, you know that it really is more 225 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: important to us to uphold rigid ideas around gender and 226 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: what it is than even to make money. Right, We're 227 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 1: willing to lose money, um, in order to uphold this 228 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: this system, which I find interesting. It is wild, Like 229 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 1: I completely agree with you, like, are are blind allegiance 230 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: to these arcane systems and rigid arcane systems that are 231 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: not serving us? It will never cease to surprise me. Yeah, 232 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: And I think we're all, I mean, in many ways, 233 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 1: we're all guilty to it. I think when we all 234 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: have these these biases, and that's why it's it's important 235 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: to look at them. And I do think it's it's 236 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: it's well worth um one's time to to connect them 237 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 1: to things like technology and innovation, because I think that 238 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: is just not done enough. And there's a whole way 239 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: we we look at the history of it, you know, 240 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: like historians have you know, pointed out Feminist historians have 241 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: pointed out, you know, we talk about the Stone Age 242 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: and the Bronze Age and the Iron Age, but they 243 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: are based on technologies invented by men. There were technologies 244 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: in these eras invented by women, but that we don't 245 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: see them mass technologies. You know, why don't we talk 246 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: about the rope page or the string age instead of 247 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: the Stone Age? You know, you could argue that string 248 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: a rope, which is you know technology. You know, they 249 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: think women invented is actually more important than some kind 250 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: of weapon made from stone because you know, you have rope, 251 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: you have string, you can tie things together, you can 252 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: make fishing nets, you can carry things in bundles. But 253 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: you know, we don't think of that as technology because 254 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: you know, for different reasons. And you know the same 255 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: with cloth or weaving or um ceramics, which are technologies 256 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: and innovations largely developed by by women throughout throughout history, 257 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: but we don't see them as as technology. And and 258 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: this creates this whole history of of innovation where it 259 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: looks like everything important ever was invented by a white man. 260 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: And and it looks like that because the definition of 261 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: technology has always followed our definition of masculinity. I mean, 262 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: when women were basically inventing software, that wasn't thought of 263 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: us as technology, and that was not that many decades ago, 264 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: and then when men started doing it, it became, you know, 265 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: terribly important and very technical and paid much more and 266 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: viewed in a different way. And that's what happens all 267 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: the time. Yeah, that's one of my favorite points that 268 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: you make in the book that we have. You know, 269 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: the bronze age, the iron age, but no ceramic age 270 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: or the flax age, and it's just this association with 271 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: femininity like this, you know. Our our first episode of 272 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: this podcast, we talked to Claire Evans, this amazing technological 273 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: historian who talks about how women were the first computers, 274 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: like flesh and blood women and that yet we didn't 275 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: think of it as technical work. We almost thought of 276 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: it as like secretarial work. And it wasn't until it 277 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: became associated with men through you know, pushing women out 278 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: through the same kinds of hostile policies that we see 279 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: today and like marketing, that that's when we's hearted to 280 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: associate women are men with technology and computing. Yeah, I know, 281 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: I mean, my my mother was a computer program I 282 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: mean she's retired now, but I mean she she trained, 283 00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: you know, she studied computer science in the early nineteen 284 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: ets in Sweden when it was still female dominated. So 285 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm I'm not even forty, and I remember 286 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: from my childhood when you know, tech before it was 287 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: called tech was I mean, at least in Sweden in 288 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: those days, was was quite dominated by you know, these 289 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: these women. I mean, my mom's most of my mother's managers. 290 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: The way I remember it back then, we're women. And 291 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: then obviously I saw how it all changed, and you know, 292 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: and now there's completely sort of different view of it, 293 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: and we we kind of erased the history. I think 294 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: many people, even within the industry don't even know about that, 295 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: or the first computer programmers being women here and in 296 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: Britain during the war. And yeah, it's um, it's just 297 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: I think it's very depressing, particularly that story. And I'm 298 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: really glad you had had that on the on the 299 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: podcast because it's, um, it's just we need to we 300 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: need to tell that story because it's actually very very 301 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: recent and we've already forgotten about it. What's a quick 302 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 1: break her back? When I saw you speak in DC, 303 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: the story that you told about your mother as a 304 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: someone who worked in tech, it really stuck with me. 305 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: You describe sort of, you know, these women with big 306 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,880 Speaker 1: hair and sweaters, like like people that you don't associate 307 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: with being computer programmers or engineers. Like what was that 308 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:31,959 Speaker 1: like for you to to grow up seeing and how 309 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: did it shape your own understanding of technology? Yeah? But 310 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,360 Speaker 1: I think when you I mean I think it made me. 311 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you're a child. You take everything, 312 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: you think your universe is the whole universe, right, you 313 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: take everything for granted, So that was just how it was. 314 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 1: But I think, I think, I think maybe it it 315 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: made me less scared of it than other people. It 316 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: was just quite natural. And also I didn't because my 317 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: mother was somebody. I mean, she's you know, she used 318 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: to work at an art gallery and did some sort 319 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: of administration of library catalogs, and and then she was 320 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: also and then she became a computer programmer. So so 321 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: for me, I think in the way it shaped my 322 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: understanding of tech was that it was actually, you know, 323 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 1: a much broader thing, accessible to a broader type of personality. 324 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,199 Speaker 1: Then then this you know, white man in a in 325 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: a hoodie that was then obviously in the nineties, very 326 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: very influential later on. So I guess that shaped me 327 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: less than than other people. And and I and also 328 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,959 Speaker 1: I guess it ended with me writing this book mother Invention. 329 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 1: I guess I wouldn't have done that without my without 330 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: that experience and and you know, and just growing up 331 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: in the tech industry without realizing what it was. Yeah, 332 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: I love that. I mean, it's it's kind of like 333 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: a legacy that your mom has set up. Even the 334 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: title of the book mothers it. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, 335 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,679 Speaker 1: I know, I mean obviously, I mean I did, I 336 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: did do coding and all of that. I wasn't that 337 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: good at it, but but it was it was it 338 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: was something that we did. It's so funny. I've talked 339 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: to so many women who are coders or work with technology, 340 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: like I'm a terrible code or I have to look 341 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:09,439 Speaker 1: up and anytime I code, I have to look it 342 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 1: up every single time. But how many of them got 343 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: started because of something that we code as sort of feminine, right, 344 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 1: Like a lot of women and girls got involved in 345 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: programming through things like MySpace or neopets, these little girly 346 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: games that you could learn simple code to to customize 347 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: and make your own, that we solidly think of as like, oh, 348 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 1: just girls playing around, But here in two a generation 349 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 1: of girls say that those kinds of experiences are what 350 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 1: gave them the the the launch had to to dive 351 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 1: into these like harder tech skills. And so it's just 352 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 1: so fascinating the things that we feminize and masculinized, and 353 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,360 Speaker 1: how when you break out of those those rigid binaries, 354 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 1: so much more as possible, a whole world of possibility 355 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: really opens up. Yeah, Onion on how co computer programming 356 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: used to be compared with you know, cooking from a recipe, know, 357 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 1: when it was seen as feminine and not high status. 358 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: You know, are you are you good at following instructions? 359 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,199 Speaker 1: Are good at cooking from a recipe? You know? Come 360 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: become a programmer? When they were trying to recruit women, um, 361 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: and you know, and it kind of makes sense. It 362 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: is a bit like cooking from a from a recipe. 363 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,239 Speaker 1: But but you know, you can see how it was 364 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 1: that metaphor was used. But just like you know, but 365 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: it's the metaphor you use, or the context you put 366 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: these skills in, or how what you even see as 367 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 1: a skill is is very gendered. And I do go 368 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: into sort of the economic consequences of that in the book, 369 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,439 Speaker 1: you know, and how historically when men are good at something, 370 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 1: it's immediately seen as a technical skill, and when women 371 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 1: are good at something, you know, for different you know, 372 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: for any reason, just because they're allowed to do it, 373 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: we tend to see it is as much more of 374 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: a natural feminine ability. So it's not allowed to become 375 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: like a technical skill. So even when women were in computing, 376 00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: it was seemed like, oh, that's like an extension of 377 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: that are feminine? Nature of you know, being meticulous and 378 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: following instructions. It's not allowed to be seen as a skill. 379 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: And then when the men come in, it's suddenly, oh, 380 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: it's a skill. This requires a particular type of brain, 381 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 1: particular type of personality. And then the and it's very technical. 382 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: And then the economic logic comes in and oh, of course, 383 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 1: if something is a natural ability, you know, that's just 384 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,199 Speaker 1: you know, why should we pay you well for it? 385 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: While if something is a skilled, yeah, of course we 386 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: should pay you well. Um, So there's like an economic 387 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 1: logic on top of that that ends up having huge 388 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 1: consequences on the labor market because you know, we know 389 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: that the main reason why women are in less than 390 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,400 Speaker 1: men is because of their gender segregated nature of all 391 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,439 Speaker 1: labor markets where you have you know, men in some 392 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: professions and women in some professions, and the female dominated 393 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 1: professions always tend to be paid less. And that actually 394 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 1: has to do with a lot of it of that 395 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: structure of the labor market has to do with how 396 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: we historic what we historically saw as a technical skill 397 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 1: and not and how that connects with gender. I'm curious, 398 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,919 Speaker 1: this is kind of a curveball question, is that the 399 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: case in places like Sweden as well as an American 400 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: I have this perhaps incorrect idea of like Swedeness, this 401 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: gender utopia where everything is great? Is that is it 402 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 1: also the case there? Yes, I mean so Sweden is 403 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: is I mean, certainly we have stuff like paidment technically 404 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: even I mean most of the world has that, apart 405 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: from from the U S. But but um, you know, 406 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: we have a lot of great things and invests, you know, 407 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: a lot in in affordable childcare, and you know, the 408 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: gender pay gap is smaller. But but it's you know, 409 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: it's not gender utopia. And you know, it's one of 410 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: the most gender segregated labor markets in the world, which 411 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 1: also has to do with a very high female you 412 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: know participation, but it's it's very very gender segregated. And 413 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: and you know, something like venture capital, I think we're 414 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 1: doing worse than the US. It's sort of one percent, 415 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 1: I think two women. So it's it's I mean, I 416 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: think Sweed is doing a lot of things right. Um, 417 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: you know, I would say it's probably a you know, 418 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: a better better model social model in in in many ways. 419 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: You know, if you allow me to be nationalists like that, 420 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: then then then many others, but it's certainly not not perfect. 421 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it. 422 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 1: It's difficult for me in the United States to not 423 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: yearn for these these alternative models, even while I can say, 424 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: you know, they they're not perfect, But it's difficult for 425 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: me being honest. Yeah no, And I think you should 426 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: And I mean, but but I think you shouldn't. I 427 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: think we should all look at, you know, different systems 428 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 1: and different models and different nations, because nobody has has 429 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: really solved this, this sort of gender equality puzzle. But 430 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: there are good things in many different places, and so 431 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: it's worth looking at the best practice basically. Definitely. That's 432 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: actually a great segue into one of the last questions 433 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: I have for you, which is, you know you you 434 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 1: end your book talking about climate and how we have this. 435 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, and I see it all the time, 436 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: and I don't even really know how to talk about it. 437 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 1: But we have this idea that the people, the person 438 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: who is going to help us tackle this mess that 439 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: we've gotten ourselves into with regard to climate are going 440 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,199 Speaker 1: to be wizards, right, Like some tech wizard is gonna 441 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: swoop in and have a technological answer whether it's going 442 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,360 Speaker 1: to Mars, going to space, whatever it is, and how 443 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,439 Speaker 1: do you see that as as as another way that 444 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: we're allowing for misogyny and assumptions about gender and masculinity 445 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,199 Speaker 1: to really perhaps lead us astray. Yeah, I mean I 446 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: think I means so some people talk about it, does 447 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 1: this um, you know, duel between the wizards, like the 448 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: tech wizards who you know, just like you say, let's 449 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 1: let's invent some some big technology that fixes everything, or 450 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: let's move to another planet. Technology and innovation will sort 451 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,239 Speaker 1: this mess out. And then on the other hand, you 452 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,959 Speaker 1: have the kind of the profits to say that technology 453 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: and innovation is the problem. You know, we need to 454 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 1: you know, we need to live simpler, we need to 455 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: um change our behavior, and that's the only way to 456 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: save the planet. And I think both of those, both 457 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: those archetypes, the wizard and the profit are based on 458 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: kind of this patriarchal model of technology being separate from nature, 459 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: right um. And I think fundamentally that is the problem here. 460 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: It's it's you know, because they're not separate, and this 461 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: idea that technology is this force that we used to 462 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: to sort of control all nature or extract things from nature. 463 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: Where the Earth basically becomes this giant container of energy 464 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: that we can just take and take from is very problematic. 465 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: And so I don't think technology and innovation is the problem, 466 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 1: because I do think it can, it can and should 467 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 1: have a different relationship to and with nature and contextualize 468 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: itself as as part of that. And and I think 469 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,439 Speaker 1: and this, you know, one of the I mean, the 470 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: whole book is about things that we view as feminine 471 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: and therefore um look down upon. And one of the 472 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: biggest things obviously, you know nature, right, Mother Earth. That's 473 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: the feminine that should be kind of um controlled by 474 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: you know, masculine forces of technology. And I think we 475 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: really to rethink that, and we need to really rethink 476 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: the relationship between nature and technology, because I think neither 477 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 1: the wizard or the profit is right. I think technology 478 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: and innovation is certainly part of this solution. But but 479 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: that type of technology innovation needs to needs to work 480 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: with nature and see itself as part of nature in 481 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: a in a completely different way. And that is a 482 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 1: big paradigm shift. And I do think it has a 483 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: lot to do with with gender and how we how 484 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: we sort of you know, insist on gendering the world 485 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: in ways that are not very constructive. When you look 486 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: down at the horizon, do you see things getting better 487 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 1: or worse? Like are you hopeful for the future when 488 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,959 Speaker 1: it comes to these things? I mean, with the climate 489 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,120 Speaker 1: change right now, it's it's I mean, it is tricky 490 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,640 Speaker 1: to be to be I mean, you know, I mean, 491 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: you're ape. You know, there's a big war in the 492 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 1: Ukraine and it's you know, it's led to you know, 493 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: Germany firing up all is cold not all its cold plant, 494 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: but burning and burning a lot of cold. And you know, 495 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: you can see, you know, lots of investments going into 496 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: fossil fuel because of you know, energy security issues that 497 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: have arisen around the war. And you know, certainly, um, 498 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 1: you know, President Biden in the US is you know, 499 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: going to Saudi Arabia and telling them to drill more 500 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: and you know, backtracking on the green agenda partly, and um, 501 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: you know, and that's you know, that's sort of I mean, 502 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 1: in the last couple of months. Certainly, it's hard to 503 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 1: be hopeful when it comes to climate change. But I 504 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: do think like the bigger trend is is you know, 505 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: is in renewables and it isn't in doing things differently, 506 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: and but I do think, you know, it's um. Yeah, 507 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: if there's a big shift that needs to happen, a 508 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: lot of it has to do with financial markets and 509 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: what gets financed, and that it's um it's a very 510 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: very very thorny and difficult problems. I mean, but we 511 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: have to be hopeful because there is there is a 512 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: non alternative. Yeah, that's exactly how I feel that, Like 513 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: it feels like we're up against so much, but the 514 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: only choice we have is to be hopeful and then 515 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: move forward. Like what other option is there? No? I mean, 516 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I mean the option is going to 517 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: mass but I don't think that's very pleasant, and so 518 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: I don't think that should be um an option. We 519 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: should you know, we should stay here and we should 520 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: know do things differently. And I think in order to 521 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 1: do that, just to sort of tie back or two 522 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: where we started the conversation, I do really think that, 523 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: you know, innovation really really really desperately needs to become 524 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: much more inclusive than it is because we need all 525 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: the good ideas that we can we can get and 526 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: right now that's that is not happening. So if you 527 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 1: listen to last week's podcast, you know that I've been 528 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: a little bit bummed with everything in the news lately. 529 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: It's just been a lot here in the United States, 530 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: and so I am looking for things, actively looking for 531 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: things on the internet that bring me joy or a 532 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: laugh or honestly, just a little bit of disrection. I 533 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: don't care how small they are. I don't care how 534 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: petty they are, I don't care how silly they are. 535 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: I want to hear about them. I put out a 536 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: call on last week's episode asking for any little thing 537 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: that you had that was bringing you joy on the internet, 538 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: and you all responded, and I wanted to share one 539 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: with you today. This comes from listener Ruth Amato. I 540 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: actually had to do a little bit of a double 541 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,959 Speaker 1: take because a motto is our producer, Mike's last name 542 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: as well. Ruth writes, I want to talk about the 543 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: things on the Internet that brings me joy. It's George's 544 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: the cat. I know you are hip enough to know 545 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: who George might be, but just in case you don't 546 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: know the saga. It starts here, and then Ruth links 547 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: to a frankly, incredible, amazing, hilarious am I the asshole 548 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: thread on Reddit about this kind of not so smart 549 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: orange tabby cat named George's, who lives in an office 550 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: building with his cat companion, Gene. Get it, Jean, George's. Basically, 551 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: George is not so smart, which I think is common 552 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: of orange tabby cats, or at least the assumption around 553 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: orange tabby cats, and causes all kinds of problems for Gene. 554 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: Ruth writes, Naturally, the internet went wild for sweet, simple 555 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 1: George and his ever helpful, long suffering coworker Gene. Now 556 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: this is where most people might cash in on their 557 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: found their new down fame, but the humans who work 558 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: with George and Jean have decided to go in a 559 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: different way and use their celebrity for good. The George 560 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: Twitter account, which boasts over two k followers, advocates for 561 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: unionism and other social justice issues while also being adorable. 562 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: Whenever I've had a hard day, I check out George's 563 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: Twitter and it hits the sweet spot between class wore 564 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: and cute cats, which is definitely the sweet spot where 565 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,959 Speaker 1: I like to exist as well. Ruth, thank you so 566 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,719 Speaker 1: much for sharing this little piece of Internet joy with 567 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: me and listeners. I want you to keep them coming. 568 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 1: What on the Internet it's bringing you Joy, I want 569 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,479 Speaker 1: to know about it. I want to hear about it. 570 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: Please share it with me. Thanks so much. Bruce. Got 571 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just 572 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: want to say hi? You can be just at Hello 573 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts today's 574 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: episode at tangodi dot com. There Are No Girls on 575 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: the Internet was created by me Brigittad. It's a production 576 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strictlet as 577 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: our executive doucer. Terry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. 578 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. 579 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: If you want to help us grow, rate and review 580 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, 581 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: check out the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast or 582 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.