Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing,
Speaker 1: My chance to talk with artists, policymakers and performers, to
Speaker 1: hear their stories. What inspires their creations, what decisions change
Speaker 1: their careers, what relationships influenced their work. I spoke with
Speaker 1: Elliott Gould in front of a live audience at the
Speaker 1: Turner Classic Movie Film Festival this past April. Before our conversation,
Speaker 1: we watched a clip reel of his films, which included
Speaker 1: Mash Bob and Carroll and Ted an Alice and The
Speaker 1: Long Goodbye, some of the most iconic films of the
Speaker 1: past forty years. Elliott Gould's career spans six decades, and
Speaker 1: unlike many of his peers, he's worked consistently from the start.
Speaker 1: Both his career and personal life are full of dramatic
Speaker 1: twists and turns. A marriage to Barbra streisand working with
Speaker 1: Carrie Rand and George Clooney, a gambling addiction, a role
Speaker 1: on the sitcom Friends. There's almost too much to talk about.
Speaker 1: Where the hell do I begin? Oh my god, Now
Speaker 1: you started in the theater in New York. I started
Speaker 1: in uh sort of vaudeville. I played the Palace in
Speaker 1: ninety one when I was twelve doing what part of
Speaker 1: Somebody's act? I was a messenger boy in the act
Speaker 1: Bill Callahan. His name was and but I followed Smith
Speaker 1: and Dale. Smith and Dale was the act before us.
Speaker 1: They were the original Sunshine Boards. We did four shows
Speaker 1: a day, seven days a week, for two weeks. I
Speaker 1: got paid fifty bucks a week and I had the
Speaker 1: highest dressing room, right, like the fifth floor walk up
Speaker 1: dressing room. Yeah. When when you were doing that, you know,
Speaker 1: showbiz in your family? Correct, Well, that's pretty pretty funny.
Speaker 1: I think everybody here is in show business. But your parents, no,
Speaker 1: they weren't performers. They danced. My father was a good dancer.
Speaker 1: He did a Lindy. My mother and I used to
Speaker 1: act my uh bar mitzvah. My mother and I tangoed too.
Speaker 1: I get ideas. No, no, no, that's the truth. It's
Speaker 1: pretty funny. My mother could put a chicken in the oven.
Speaker 1: Doesn't make her a chef. You know. It's like, but
Speaker 1: you pay your family wasn't in the business. They weren't.
Speaker 1: And when you would when you finished, uh not finished,
Speaker 1: when you moved on from vaudeville, what was your first
Speaker 1: Broadway or off Broadway show you did, was it I
Speaker 1: Can get It for your wholesale? Was your from? No? No,
Speaker 1: no no. I got a job in a summer stock
Speaker 1: production of Annie Get Your Gun with Von Monroe. Do
Speaker 1: you remember the name? And uh? But we were going
Speaker 1: to be at a place a tent called Brandywine someplace, uh,
Speaker 1: on this coast, and there was a storm and it
Speaker 1: blew away. So I never got to be to do
Speaker 1: the show. And then I got a job for a
Speaker 1: segment of the Ernie Kovacs Show with fifty other male dancers.
Speaker 1: I was primarily a dancer, and Ernie Kovacs was great.
Speaker 1: And then my first Broadway musical was called Rumpel, which
Speaker 1: was directed by Jack Donahue and starred Eddie Foyd Jr.
Speaker 1: Gretchen Wiler, and Stephen Douglas. So singing and dancing was
Speaker 1: primary for you in the beginning, and then later on
Speaker 1: did you come back and we visit that in other
Speaker 1: projects you've done? I mean other than I never really
Speaker 1: had an act. We would go to the Catskill Mountains
Speaker 1: as paying customers, and on Sunday nights they would have
Speaker 1: me do what I did on Saturday night. I do
Speaker 1: a couple of routines, you know, But in the films,
Speaker 1: you never sat there and said I'd like to do
Speaker 1: a musical in doing your there had been talked of it.
Speaker 1: I never did it. But Jimmy conn and I did
Speaker 1: a picture called Harry and Walter Go to New York
Speaker 1: and we we we did a whole number in the beginning,
Speaker 1: which was written by Marilyn and Alan Bergman, which is
Speaker 1: nobody's perfect. The uh, I can get it for you wholesale. Obviously,
Speaker 1: you meet your first wife. Then well, my first girlfriend,
Speaker 1: your first girlfriend. Let's tell us all about that, tell
Speaker 1: us all about the oh stupid, but you met she
Speaker 1: was your first girlfriend. Well, for we had to cast
Speaker 1: the role that I played. Once they cast this part,
Speaker 1: then they had all the finalists come in to audition
Speaker 1: and with me being there for them to see how
Speaker 1: I felt about them. And Barbara auditioned for my secretary
Speaker 1: called miss Marmelstein beyond brilliant, just so amazing, and she
Speaker 1: sang three or four songs and then her song. And
Speaker 1: Jerome Wideman, who had written the book and it had
Speaker 1: been a picture a movie before, we did the musical,
Speaker 1: and Susan Hayward played my part, and Dan Daily was
Speaker 1: in it too, and Jerome Wideman said to me, what
Speaker 1: do you think. I said, she's brilliant, and she presents
Speaker 1: herself sort of like the way I think about myself.
Speaker 1: She's scared and she's hiding behind things. And I called
Speaker 1: her because she announced her number. And then, uh, she said,
Speaker 1: I'm singing tonight, come and see me. I said, I
Speaker 1: think you're going to be in the show. And once
Speaker 1: you're in the show, we can see if we get
Speaker 1: to know one another. Is that when she really really
Speaker 1: took off during that No, oh no, no, she she's
Speaker 1: you would say that she stole the show. It was
Speaker 1: the best thing in the show. Uh. And and then
Speaker 1: she this was just prior to her first album, and
Speaker 1: she had done a Jack Parr show, and she had
Speaker 1: done a few talk shows. And her career is, as
Speaker 1: we all know, amazing, and she's just one of a
Speaker 1: kind and brilliant. She certainly has. Your first film, you
Speaker 1: tell me, was with Dieterley, was with William Dieterley. Yes,
Speaker 1: your first film? Described that film? What was the film?
Speaker 1: The film at the time was called The Confession and
Speaker 1: it was going to be shot on the island of
Speaker 1: Jamaica at the same time that Dr No was being done,
Speaker 1: and also High Wind in Jamaica that Alexander McKendrick did
Speaker 1: with Anthony Quinn. And I went in and they asked
Speaker 1: me to play a part called Alessandro, who was a
Speaker 1: death mute. And the picture was starring Ginger Rogers, my
Speaker 1: first star, and h and Raymond Land and William Diechley
Speaker 1: was directing it and I was a death mute. And
Speaker 1: at the end of the picture, I get shocked into
Speaker 1: sang a hearing. I wonder what was it like for
Speaker 1: you to go from vaudeville and theater in New York
Speaker 1: and to do your first film. When you were making
Speaker 1: your first film, did you say yous of oh this
Speaker 1: is it? Because I as you and I bought other
Speaker 1: people who come on and they're like them. They were
Speaker 1: born on a sound stage in Hollywood, and it took
Speaker 1: me three films to find the camera. The first first film,
Speaker 1: and I know you understand this was William Dicholi, who
Speaker 1: had directed Charles Lawton as the Hunchback of Notre Dame
Speaker 1: Beautiful film and Paul Muni as a bunch of stuff
Speaker 1: that he did, and um, he was calling me Nugent, Nugent.
Speaker 1: There was an Elliott Nugent, so in his mind, I
Speaker 1: was at Elliott Nugent. Doesn't matter to me. I don't
Speaker 1: care who anyone is, you know, And I call you nugent,
Speaker 1: call me anything, I'll give you a better name than that.
Speaker 1: So so you he kept calling you nugent when when
Speaker 1: you were there was did you sit there and say, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't have it. I don't know if I have
Speaker 1: what it takes to make films or no. No, I
Speaker 1: mean I had no experience. I remember one Sunday there
Speaker 1: was an actor's on a benefit of Hamlet with h
Speaker 1: Richard Burton, and I wanted to see it, and Barbara
Speaker 1: was here in New York, and I want and I
Speaker 1: came back, which was more than naughty and not supposed
Speaker 1: to leave. I left the island to come to see that.
Speaker 1: And I got back and Ginger Rogers and her husband
Speaker 1: said no, no, that's no. I said, okay, I really
Speaker 1: wanted to see it, you know, and I had a
Speaker 1: really good tan. I wanted to proper to see my
Speaker 1: tan also. Uh. But in this scene where my character
Speaker 1: is shocked because everyone's looking for treasure and the treasure
Speaker 1: is inside of a statue nobody and it sort of falls,
Speaker 1: and so I'm shocked into and I didn't know what
Speaker 1: to do. And I went to see digitally there with
Speaker 1: about five thirty in the late afternoon, early evening, and
Speaker 1: I said, do you have a thought for me or
Speaker 1: what to do? And he said, then I did act
Speaker 1: the Lawton in Hunchback of Notre Dame. He went and
Speaker 1: then he went and his wife, who was always there,
Speaker 1: and she said, he's sleep now, because the next day
Speaker 1: I did it. And I blew myself out in in
Speaker 1: the rehearsal because I was more than insecure. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, I took a deep breath, but you got
Speaker 1: to do it over and over and over again. So
Speaker 1: on a Richter scale, in the first picture, I was zero.
Speaker 1: I wasn't below it or I wasn't above it. I
Speaker 1: just did it and got through it. Remember, because I
Speaker 1: remember the same thing I did a TV show years ago.
Speaker 1: You don't want to be caught with your pants down
Speaker 1: energy wise. I don't want to be dull, so I
Speaker 1: would over invest and mellow dramatize things I did. I
Speaker 1: did a TV show and the character uh, a woman
Speaker 1: was a benefactress of a medical center and she was
Speaker 1: going to withdraw all her funding of the medical center
Speaker 1: because she didn't appreciate some of the work we were doing.
Speaker 1: And I have a scene with her work in front
Speaker 1: of her, and when they rolled the camera, I was like,
Speaker 1: you know, you don't I stand it was this place,
Speaker 1: would like I'm sobbing, and the directors like, whoa, we
Speaker 1: got another We got another forty minutes to go here.
Speaker 1: I mean, but in things I've read about whether you
Speaker 1: said this yourself or not, or what was said about you,
Speaker 1: was it Working with Altman was a big seminal thank
Speaker 1: for you that he helped you to open up. And
Speaker 1: he gave me so much space. I mean. Prior to
Speaker 1: working with Bob, I had made a second film that
Speaker 1: Billy Freakin did the night they rated Minsky's, and I
Speaker 1: played the last scene that Bert lar Ever did. And
Speaker 1: now that I have an idea of how to breathe
Speaker 1: from the first film, now I'm playing the title role
Speaker 1: in the Night they rated Minsky's. But I had no
Speaker 1: idea about light or a camera and Bert Laar this
Speaker 1: is his his last scene because he didn't finish the picture.
Speaker 1: He passed away, and I would be taking a position
Speaker 1: and putting his shadow on me, and and he would
Speaker 1: be adjusting and we'd be moving, but the camera had
Speaker 1: to be stationary. And we did it over and over
Speaker 1: and over again, and and Bert Laura brought me home
Speaker 1: that night. He had an apartment of Park Avenue, and
Speaker 1: he said to his life, look what I brought with me.
Speaker 1: That was Burt laura third film, Paul Masserski's first film,
Speaker 1: and Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice. I discovered
Speaker 1: my first objective relationship in life and existence with the camera.
Speaker 1: I realized that the camera doesn't give me problems. I
Speaker 1: give me problems. The camera will never lie to me
Speaker 1: and will never manipulate me. So we were all set up,
Speaker 1: we had always many people as are in the room,
Speaker 1: and then we had to break for union regulations. I
Speaker 1: think we're both unionists, but we had to break, and
Speaker 1: so I had no place to go as usual, and
Speaker 1: they turned the lights down and left the set there,
Speaker 1: and I just sat there. And that's when I got it.
Speaker 1: That's when I got it. So when I went back
Speaker 1: to New York to start to do a show play
Speaker 1: that Alan Schneider, who had directed the original Virginia Wolf,
Speaker 1: they replaced him, and then they replaced me. But I
Speaker 1: had found my relationship with the camera and and so
Speaker 1: I came out to Los Angeles and was asked to
Speaker 1: meet Bob Altman, and Bob Altman gave me the script
Speaker 1: to mash and he asked me to read it. And
Speaker 1: I came in and he said, would you consider playing
Speaker 1: the American Southerner? I said, I've never questioned an offer,
Speaker 1: but I'll be so intense and drive myself crazy validating
Speaker 1: me as an American Southerner. But this guy, if you
Speaker 1: haven't cast Trapper John, I got the juice for that.
Speaker 1: I know, I know what that guy has. And it's
Speaker 1: like he let me cast myself. And when you did
Speaker 1: Bob and Carroll? What was that film like for you
Speaker 1: to shoot and Carroll? Yes? How was Missoursky as a director? Great? Uh?
Speaker 1: I was incredibly insecure and frightened about the the sexual
Speaker 1: part of it. I really didn't have very much confidence.
Speaker 1: But then Larry Tucker and Paul Missourski, they were partners.
Speaker 1: They wrote it and they had improvised the bedroom scene,
Speaker 1: the scene with the Diane Cannon and me, and it
Speaker 1: was funny. It was just so so right. So I
Speaker 1: was able to do that. And with Missouriski, the thing
Speaker 1: in there when he goes that I don't know what
Speaker 1: to do? That was that was for real. I asked
Speaker 1: him if I could do that. He said, do anything
Speaker 1: that that you want. It's funny when you do sex
Speaker 1: scenes and films you had an issue with doing you
Speaker 1: didn't feel confident. Why well, how well, we didn't really
Speaker 1: do anything even when we were in bed, even the
Speaker 1: idea where I had a prepping brushing my teeth, gargling,
Speaker 1: you know, and putting deodor into on. I mean a
Speaker 1: lot of us are like that, weren't you? Sure? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was so nervous every time. I'm nervous. Um. But
Speaker 1: the but but I'm saying, as you say, you lacked confidence,
Speaker 1: and then, uh, I lacked confidence in me and I
Speaker 1: had a very little experience and therefore at that point
Speaker 1: to exhibit or be as as transparent as I am.
Speaker 1: I have a lot of experience now in the work,
Speaker 1: you know, in life. So I understand, I'm I'm in balance.
Speaker 1: But but for me, when I look at me, I'm
Speaker 1: in the clip real obviously, just as a as a
Speaker 1: guide to this, it's eventually become someone who's supremely confident
Speaker 1: in front of the camera. You know, you really have
Speaker 1: a great with it. Yeah, well I've worked for George.
Speaker 1: You know it's more than it's maturing. I mean even
Speaker 1: after uh working within Mark Berkman, which was like you
Speaker 1: know beyond uh you know to work. This is a
Speaker 1: business and uh, it's a business that's driven by the audience.
Speaker 1: And and you know this and I didn't always know it.
Speaker 1: Uh you know who Jerry West is? Right, So I
Speaker 1: said too, we're friendly. And I've said I always thought
Speaker 1: it was about talent, but now I believe it's about character.
Speaker 1: You can be born with talent, but character is something
Speaker 1: that we have to develop through experience, through education. And
Speaker 1: he educated me in a moment, Jerry did, because on
Speaker 1: this level, you have to be talented, but I mean,
Speaker 1: nobody can teach you character. You have to have character.
Speaker 1: You have to know and I didn't have perspective and
Speaker 1: I didn't have judgment, and so I had to put
Speaker 1: myself through a lot of stuff. But I never gave
Speaker 1: in and never gave up. But still you've got to
Speaker 1: be employed. In order to gain this experience. You've got
Speaker 1: to work. I mean, I I the older I get,
Speaker 1: and the more I have done this, the more technical
Speaker 1: it becomes. To me, you either you have the inspiration
Speaker 1: or you don't. Well, that's nature. What I've recently discovered
Speaker 1: is that what's true and what's real is not necessarily
Speaker 1: the same. And to me, I can only talk for myself.
Speaker 1: What's true is what you feel. Nature is true, what's real.
Speaker 1: Sometimes we invent what's real, and I have found that
Speaker 1: the corporate intelligence will build on that and it can
Speaker 1: be misleading to us. As far as being alive in
Speaker 1: everything we do, sometimes we have to be technical. I've
Speaker 1: done some work where I said, it's very difficult for
Speaker 1: me not to be natural, so let me make my mistakes.
Speaker 1: I'll I'll make several mistakes over and over again until
Speaker 1: I can master that and do it because being dependable
Speaker 1: and being reliable is the basis of of of the work.
Speaker 1: I found that the you know for me, the longer
Speaker 1: longer I've done it in my life. The thing I've
Speaker 1: fantasized about is to have worked with great directors. And
Speaker 1: you worked with a lot of great directors. What do
Speaker 1: you think Almen hired you for? What did he see
Speaker 1: in you? We're gonna be out of time very soon.
Speaker 1: No no no, no no no. It's a possibly an
Speaker 1: energy and energy which was necessary because I mean we
Speaker 1: that was the first of quite a few opportunities that
Speaker 1: we had to work together. So I don't quite know
Speaker 1: what Bob necessarily saw in me, but I was able
Speaker 1: to get past myself and express myself and free myself
Speaker 1: to do what he was doing. I never worked like
Speaker 1: that before. I was a chorus boy, a tap dancer,
Speaker 1: a real good tapp answer. And so I said, I
Speaker 1: understand repetition, and I understand precision, and we'll do it
Speaker 1: until you're satisfied. Robert Altman he published me first as
Speaker 1: his enemy because I I was always wanting things to
Speaker 1: be prepared and to know what the next. But in life,
Speaker 1: you don't know what's next. And I've seen and learned
Speaker 1: through Bob that his work, that Altman's work, uh is
Speaker 1: about life taking its course, which to me is the
Speaker 1: most interesting thing. Aldman said that I was the most
Speaker 1: h honest actor that he that he knew. Nichols said
Speaker 1: that about about Nicholson. I said, why did you love Nicholson?
Speaker 1: Because he had no vanity? You know, when he when
Speaker 1: he let himself go, when he was kind of a
Speaker 1: little rounder, and he did terms of endearment and he
Speaker 1: lays on the bed and pats the bed. For surely
Speaker 1: McLean's has come on up here, come on up here.
Speaker 1: We're friendly. Jackie. I like to call him Jackie, you know,
Speaker 1: or do you really Yeah, Jackie, I want to call
Speaker 1: you a b I love it. I love it well.
Speaker 1: Nicholson whether we talked about directors, if I did this
Speaker 1: little survey of for HBO about Ken, we interviewed Polanski,
Speaker 1: and later on I saw Nicholson and I couldn't help
Speaker 1: but ask him, you know, what was it like to
Speaker 1: do China Temper was like to be directed by Polanski?
Speaker 1: And Nicholson said that to be on the set with
Speaker 1: Houston and Polanski. So Houston is in the one of
Speaker 1: the greatest directors of all time is acting in the film,
Speaker 1: and polanskys there. Nicholson said that Houston called him Roman.
Speaker 1: We called him Roman, and he studied, tourned him and said,
Speaker 1: now Roman really only two directions, a little more and
Speaker 1: a little less like Boy. It seemed to have served
Speaker 1: him pretty well. You know. It was a lot of
Speaker 1: a people who don't know. But when you see mash
Speaker 1: I mean, the two of you are so Donald was such,
Speaker 1: you know, he was cast before me and Bob Altman
Speaker 1: asked me to have lunch with him once we set
Speaker 1: me and the commissary at Fox, and it was just
Speaker 1: me and Donald at lunch. And my first sense was
Speaker 1: I didn't think he liked me. I thought, whatever, you know,
Speaker 1: but we we got a long grade and we we
Speaker 1: stayed together, Donald and me, Bob and everyone. I wouldn't
Speaker 1: look at any film. I wouldn't look at any dailies.
Speaker 1: I don't want to fall in love with anything. It's
Speaker 1: it's just work and getting it, and we did. We
Speaker 1: did three films together. Donald was it was what was
Speaker 1: mash because of that a live quality, that immediacy to
Speaker 1: it that I see whenever I see that film. Is
Speaker 1: it a lot of it was a lot of improvisation?
Speaker 1: Was it all written down or most of it written down? Well?
Speaker 1: When we showed Ring Lardner Jr. The film Uh at
Speaker 1: Fox with the cast there, and I probably I may
Speaker 1: have already seen it, and I was showing Donald how
Speaker 1: to play against the wall like with a spaldine, like
Speaker 1: you know, a street game with a ball and pretend
Speaker 1: to be baseball. And that was the night that lou
Speaker 1: al Cinder was playing against Will Chamberlain and and the
Speaker 1: picture had been shown and we were there on the
Speaker 1: back lot and ring Lardner walked up to me and
Speaker 1: I thought, what are you talking to me? It's not
Speaker 1: my picture? And uh he said, you know, how could
Speaker 1: you do this to me? There's not a word that
Speaker 1: I wrote on screen? And ring Lardner went on to
Speaker 1: win the Academy Award that year for the Best Screen.
Speaker 1: I think that ring Lardner now, when he asked you
Speaker 1: to come to uh the marlaw was aftermash the director
Speaker 1: who we thought was going to do it. Another director
Speaker 1: couldn't see me in it, and and I was thinking
Speaker 1: in terms of uh Lee Marvin, the great Lee Marvin,
Speaker 1: and Robert Mitchum, the great Robert Mitchum. And I said, well,
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't argue with them. They're like my uncle's.
Speaker 1: But we've seen them. You haven't seen me. But and
Speaker 1: then they gave it to Bob and Bob called me
Speaker 1: from Ireland where he was finishing images, and he said
Speaker 1: to me, what do you think? And I said, I've
Speaker 1: always wanted to play this guy. And Bob said, you
Speaker 1: are this guy and that was the beginning of the picture.
Speaker 1: What was the specific challenge for you to do that film? Because,
Speaker 1: like a lot of people, we'll say to you if
Speaker 1: you're reprising a role that other people have their fingerprints on.
Speaker 1: I did street Car on Broadway and people always like, well,
Speaker 1: what about you know? You know? And I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: if you want to see the show live on Broadway tonight,
Speaker 1: I'm it. He's not here, right yeah, right right, He's
Speaker 1: up on Mulholland Drive right now, dinner. And uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm kind of it right now if you want to
Speaker 1: buy a ticket. But every perception is every every job
Speaker 1: is a challenge. But when you did it, do you
Speaker 1: weren't conscious of ghosts and things like that? You know nothing.
Speaker 1: I grew up watching a bog Art, you know, and uh,
Speaker 1: I mean bog Art. It can't compare anyone to bog Art,
Speaker 1: And so I just knew it was going to be
Speaker 1: something different. And and Bob who told me I scared
Speaker 1: him in it because he gave me all of this
Speaker 1: space and I'm painting a picture, and um so and
Speaker 1: when when we tested ninav and Palant, I didn't see
Speaker 1: her in it. I thought it would would have been
Speaker 1: somewhat a bit younger, but I knew Alman knows what
Speaker 1: he wants. So I got my wardrobe when we did
Speaker 1: the screen test for Nina van Palant, you know, a
Speaker 1: mismatched jacket and pants and a tie, which was my
Speaker 1: statement because when I go into the water into the
Speaker 1: ocean and nearly drowned that night, I have a little
Speaker 1: American flags on it which you can't even see, and
Speaker 1: I keep my shoes are on, my jack everything's on,
Speaker 1: and I just take the tie off to give to her,
Speaker 1: which was my message to outer space. We're America, you know.
Speaker 1: So when you do California Split, are you like researching or?
Speaker 1: That was semi autobiographical, and we thought that Steve McQueen
Speaker 1: was going to play that part. Uh and uh. In
Speaker 1: the picture, the character that George Siegel plays was me
Speaker 1: and I played the character of the writer who played
Speaker 1: the bookmaker in a Joseph Walt who was a child star.
Speaker 1: So I had that experience. I knew about gambling. I
Speaker 1: gambled how well and the and there're sports nut? You
Speaker 1: like sports? Yeah, your sports nut, So I'd have an opinion,
Speaker 1: and you know it's was being somewhat obsessively compulsive, you know,
Speaker 1: with baseball, football, basketball, not hockey so much, but at
Speaker 1: a certain point anything. And I played cards, and I
Speaker 1: don't do that anymore. Once I got through the Oceans thing,
Speaker 1: I've realized, as much as I love to win, I
Speaker 1: hate losing more. And there's nothing I need that I
Speaker 1: can win. I've got to make it for myself. And
Speaker 1: then I realized, I thought, well, but sometimes I'll pay
Speaker 1: to play. But even now, I'd rather read a book.
Speaker 1: I'd rather give the family, give the kids the money.
Speaker 1: I don't want to. Uh. Gamble. Was there a white
Speaker 1: hot period? Few though an intense period. You did a
Speaker 1: lot of game, a big game. There was a big
Speaker 1: game which was when Alan the Horse Amici went over
Speaker 1: to beat the giants Baltimore Colts. And that game would
Speaker 1: a three and a half point spread. So if they
Speaker 1: just kicked the field goal, we lose because we're allaying
Speaker 1: the three and a half points. And Carol Rosenbloom, who
Speaker 1: was the owner, uh and he then owned I think
Speaker 1: the Rams, and that was very big. Walsh and I.
Speaker 1: That was in the late fifties, in the late fifties, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was terrible, terrible, just terrible. I don't want to gamble.
Speaker 1: I don't want anyone to gamble something. You've got to
Speaker 1: have an open mind to take a chance. Sometimes I
Speaker 1: don't want to gamble. When asked if he had a
Speaker 1: drug problem on a late night talk show in Elliott
Speaker 1: Gould answered that he didn't. He had a problem with
Speaker 1: reality coming up. Googled on his relationship with Alfred Hitchcock
Speaker 1: explore the Here's the Thing Archives. I talked with Michael
Speaker 1: Douglas about what makes a great director. For Douglas, Adrian
Speaker 1: Lyne was one of the best. I remember, you know,
Speaker 1: when Glenn and I were doing Fail Attraction and we
Speaker 1: had the scene in the kitchen the first time we
Speaker 1: were kind of going at it, got her up on
Speaker 1: the kitchen sink, and so he did it. Take on
Speaker 1: that and said, well that was that was one of
Speaker 1: the love That was just great. What could we do?
Speaker 1: I think? And glab said, well, maybe I can take
Speaker 1: the water and I can stick my wet fingers in
Speaker 1: his mouth. Lovely, lovely, lovely. Take a listen and here's
Speaker 1: the thing. Dot Org, this is Alec Baldwin and you're
Speaker 1: listening to Here's the Thing. Elliott Gould was the first
Speaker 1: American actor to work with legendary director Ingmar Bergman. Gould
Speaker 1: was fresh off the movie Mash when Bergman approached him
Speaker 1: to work on The Touch. Gould considers the film a masterpiece.
Speaker 1: Bergman sent me the script scared the hell out of me.
Speaker 1: Made Bob and Carolinda Analis looked like Abernic Ostello to me,
Speaker 1: and uh and and so then I thought, I can't
Speaker 1: say no to Inmar Bergman. Have him called me in
Speaker 1: the West Village Morton Street. And so he called me. No, no,
Speaker 1: little Brad, you said, I said. My hair stood up,
Speaker 1: and I thought, okay, I mean it can be rather impulsive.
Speaker 1: I said, I can trust me with him and him
Speaker 1: with me. And so I said okay, and I came
Speaker 1: across us and Uh. The first thing he said to
Speaker 1: me when I came down the elevator at the Diplomat
Speaker 1: Hotel in Stockholm, he said, my father taught me to
Speaker 1: always be a little bit early. And so we went
Speaker 1: through everything at an office in the theater, met B. B.
Speaker 1: Anderson and Max found said and then I went away
Speaker 1: for a while, Uh, to Sorrento and to Paris. And
Speaker 1: in Paris, uh, Sam Peck and Paul wanted me to
Speaker 1: do straw Dogs and I wasn't going to be able
Speaker 1: to do it, but he called me in Paris while
Speaker 1: I was getting ready to come back to Sweden to
Speaker 1: work with Ingmark, and Sam said to me, Elliott, you
Speaker 1: do read between the lines, don't you? And I said Sam,
Speaker 1: I lived between the lines, and until such time as
Speaker 1: I understand the lines, it's way too terrifying for me
Speaker 1: to think where I live now maybe I'm now that
Speaker 1: I'm getting it. I mean, I can see, Oh, there
Speaker 1: are boundaries, there are limits. Because in the second week
Speaker 1: of principal photography on the Touch, which I thought could
Speaker 1: be about Larry Bird or it could be about somebody
Speaker 1: who could deal cards, I thought, yeah, he said, you've
Speaker 1: gone beyond your limits and you'll have to live more
Speaker 1: to understand what you've done. And at that moment I
Speaker 1: was secure in playing him. I play him in it.
Speaker 1: Uh and uh. But I had no confidence in me,
Speaker 1: and I didn't know any limits, and I couldn't say
Speaker 1: stop everything. I couldn't so I had to go further.
Speaker 1: Now I come back to America and I'm resuming, resuming
Speaker 1: my producing career because it appeared that I had a
Speaker 1: very rather fertile career as a producer. I had already
Speaker 1: produced Little Murders. We had several pictures that were there,
Speaker 1: but I didn't know who I was dealing within, what
Speaker 1: I was dealing with. I had to find out. I
Speaker 1: had to find out. I went all in and I
Speaker 1: had to pay everything off. But I didn't lose this.
Speaker 1: I didn't lose my soul. And I'm here and I'm
Speaker 1: grateful to it to everyone uh for valid aiding my work.
Speaker 1: I've done a lot of films. Some are betteran some aren't.
Speaker 1: But I could look at anyone and everyone I've ever
Speaker 1: been in and find a reason for participating. Since I'm
Speaker 1: still working, and that's the key to continue to work.
Speaker 1: There was someone acting wise, I mean you you work
Speaker 1: with great directors and great film actors. Who was someone
Speaker 1: that before you started doing the film you were really
Speaker 1: excited to make a film with you just Oh, I
Speaker 1: I don't know if I knew anyone, uh that I
Speaker 1: had participated in a film. First film, I mean I
Speaker 1: knew Bert Law from The Cowardly Lion and he was
Speaker 1: a great, wonderful actor. And then Bob and Carroll and
Speaker 1: Ted and Alice. You say about Natalie Wood and and
Speaker 1: that Bob cab that night it was the night, one
Speaker 1: of the nights that Richard Nixon defeated Hubert Humphrey, which
Speaker 1: was terrible, not very happy for many of us. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then with Mash, I didn't know anyone, and then
Speaker 1: there was getting straight. I didn't know anyone. I've met
Speaker 1: people and developed relationships through the through the work, and
Speaker 1: I mean I do love us, you know, I mean
Speaker 1: each one. No one is more important, the least of us,
Speaker 1: the least the craft services, the least of us, the
Speaker 1: guy at the door. It's an all team effort. You know.
Speaker 1: Um you Uh. I've done some television in the last
Speaker 1: several years. Everybody knows you did. Uh Friends. Did you
Speaker 1: enjoy doing that? Yes? And uh, I did an episode
Speaker 1: of Friends. I was It was terrifying to me, Oh
Speaker 1: my god. But the reason, the main reason I did
Speaker 1: it is because A. Burrows directed me and my second show,
Speaker 1: which was Say Darling, and he had directed the original
Speaker 1: production of Guys and Dollars that my parents took me
Speaker 1: to see. And Jim Burrows, who was the top director,
Speaker 1: he was directing it. And I was told because it
Speaker 1: wasn't much for me in it that Jim Burrows would
Speaker 1: kill them if they couldn't deliver me. And and so
Speaker 1: I did it, and then they did some writing for me.
Speaker 1: And it's a very very happy experience. Yeah, um, we
Speaker 1: are going to take some questions, uh, because I know
Speaker 1: we do have some time limits and I can't see
Speaker 1: very well. So if I don't call on you, get
Speaker 1: over it. We're gonna go with this gentleman back here
Speaker 1: right were right there, you wave your hand, that's here
Speaker 1: we go. When I was brought to song and dance
Speaker 1: school at the age about nine eight or nine, that Freddy,
Speaker 1: who is the tap teacher, said you know, what do
Speaker 1: you want to do? And I thought, I mean, what
Speaker 1: what can I say? To be a fireman? I don't
Speaker 1: think so to be a cowboy, no, that sounds weird
Speaker 1: to uh blow a trumpet and have the walls come
Speaker 1: tumbling down, a little esoteric. I don't know what to
Speaker 1: be or what to do. And you know, I'd like
Speaker 1: to play soldier. I like to be law enforcement. Jack
Speaker 1: Webb wants at me if I would be the new
Speaker 1: law enforcement person at universally was going to produce me,
Speaker 1: which was interesting. I liked talking with him, but I
Speaker 1: never could make a deal. This woman right here in
Speaker 1: the third fourth row. If you're in the back, wave
Speaker 1: your hands, wheck and see if I see you in
Speaker 1: the backgroup, good go ahead man. That thought. Personally, what
Speaker 1: what character did you relate to the most? Uh? Well,
Speaker 1: the work I relate to just about every character. I
Speaker 1: told you with with Mash that that was the most
Speaker 1: popular thing that that I've ever done. Getting straight was
Speaker 1: really interesting, and when I fell out, uh industry wise,
Speaker 1: which maybe we'll talk about at another time. Off off
Speaker 1: of it, I was really pleased that two of my
Speaker 1: students in it because I played a teacher. Uh. Two
Speaker 1: of my students in it were h Harrison Ford and
Speaker 1: Candis Bergen, which was good for me, you know that.
Speaker 1: And that was the picture on Time magazine that date
Speaker 1: of that cover. There were two covers in the world.
Speaker 1: The one in America here was the one that you
Speaker 1: saw in that film. The one in Canada and in
Speaker 1: Europe was a photograph of trapper John As and just
Speaker 1: me the man from Mash which I don't want to
Speaker 1: be too proud, but my father was very proud. But
Speaker 1: I I find that a grain of pride is good
Speaker 1: for the heart, But no more than that. It's blinding.
Speaker 1: But so a character that I might have a problem with. Uh,
Speaker 1: And that if a director or a writer wants me
Speaker 1: to help to interpret it, that's very interesting to me.
Speaker 1: But no matter what I play, I have this heart,
Speaker 1: I have a brain left some of it, and I
Speaker 1: do believe in the soul. And so I bring my
Speaker 1: life to whatever I do. And what is the film
Speaker 1: you did that on a technical level or in terms
Speaker 1: of the role and kind of getting at the way
Speaker 1: you went. What was one of the toughest ones you did.
Speaker 1: What was a hard movie for you to make? Wow?
Speaker 1: The role? No, no, I I I understand you. So
Speaker 1: no matter if I don't mean they had no hot
Speaker 1: water at the hotel, I mean the role itself. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: I mean it's deeply personal. I have no secrets relative
Speaker 1: to that. Uh. I was friendly with Casey Afflick during
Speaker 1: the Oceans movies, but I never connected with Ben and
Speaker 1: Um and Matt Maddie. Matt Damon said Ben is the
Speaker 1: smartest person that he knows. And I said to Matt
Speaker 1: and Clooney, I guess you haven't met all of us,
Speaker 1: you know, And because we're all on and so after
Speaker 1: seeing Argo, I'm really impressed with Ben's work. I think
Speaker 1: he's really good. And so I thought I'll go to
Speaker 1: their party and see if I can have a moment
Speaker 1: with him, and I did, and I told him how
Speaker 1: impressed I am with with your your work, your craft,
Speaker 1: your craft. And he was pleased. And then after a
Speaker 1: moment or two, he said, I have a question. Have
Speaker 1: you ever done anything in all of this that you
Speaker 1: were sorry you did afterwards? It's a really good question.
Speaker 1: I said, no, it would be so disloyal. There's so
Speaker 1: many people who are dependent on our work, and we
Speaker 1: do everything that we can to do the best. Sometimes
Speaker 1: it doesn't work, but I wouldn't be sorry about that.
Speaker 1: One of the great things is to be vulnerable. That
Speaker 1: that's one of the things in life, to be vulnerable.
Speaker 1: What character who was most difficult? Oh, my god, working
Speaker 1: for Ingmar, I'm playing his part. That wasn't so easy.
Speaker 1: But oh, I'm so glad I can share this with you.
Speaker 1: There's a scene where, my God, the character David I think,
Speaker 1: is lying outside of a church, lying. He's not telling
Speaker 1: the truth to B. B. Anderson's character. And I had
Speaker 1: my eyes closed because he's lying and we broke for
Speaker 1: luncheon ingmar came up to me and he said, I'll
Speaker 1: never mislead you. He said, I can't. I will never
Speaker 1: mislead you. I think that you have your eyes closed
Speaker 1: because you're afraid you can't give me what you think
Speaker 1: I want. He said, I need you. I want your
Speaker 1: eyes open because even if there's nothing there, that's what
Speaker 1: the scene is about, for me to see where I am,
Speaker 1: which is the best direction I've ever had. Isn't that good?
Speaker 1: M y go ahead? Oh? I did that this weekend
Speaker 1: to my assistant, the assistant director of the movie that
Speaker 1: I'm participating in Now Back East, and I said, do
Speaker 1: you know the quiet man john Ford? I sometimes have
Speaker 1: been uh addressed. I've been dressed to go black tie
Speaker 1: and if it's on, I can't leave. I can't leave.
Speaker 1: I mean john Ford, john Ford, John Wayne in that
Speaker 1: marine O'Hara, Barry Fitzgerald. It's one of the most romantic
Speaker 1: things you can ever see. And Spielberg used it in Et.
Speaker 1: You know he has it affecting all of us. Well,
Speaker 1: those movies that are like that, you know, it's funny.
Speaker 1: I use the exact same analogy. I say, a good
Speaker 1: movie you watch and you enjoy it, but you have
Speaker 1: to be in the mood for it. Sometimes I said,
Speaker 1: a great movie put you in the mood for the
Speaker 1: said how many times it was I sitting there nothing consequential,
Speaker 1: but I'd say to my wife, I'd said, oh, we
Speaker 1: need to go buy pillows today or something. I we
Speaker 1: need new pillows or something. And I'd sit on my
Speaker 1: bed and my you know, well out of the shower,
Speaker 1: and the minute you see that marble swirling around and
Speaker 1: that cigar box, and it's the opening titles of To
Speaker 1: Kill a mocking Bird. And I'm not going anywhere, And
Speaker 1: I mean I just started sobbing and I'm crying at
Speaker 1: the titles and I'm crying at the marble. Is no, no,
Speaker 1: no one's shown screen, No one said anything. And I
Speaker 1: want to tell you a little bit about Hitchcock. I
Speaker 1: spent real so we're gonna get to you. I promised
Speaker 1: you go ahead. So I was co hosting an award
Speaker 1: show prime time on NBC. We we finished the rehearsals
Speaker 1: and management came to me and said, Alfred Hitchcock is
Speaker 1: here to claim his award. He's got some problems with
Speaker 1: his knees. Can he sit in your room. My room
Speaker 1: was closest to the stage. I said, well, naturally. I
Speaker 1: came back to my room and there's Alfred Hitchcock, and
Speaker 1: I said to him, are you going to make another film?
Speaker 1: And he said to me, I'm toying with one, he said,
Speaker 1: and then he leaned closer to me and he said,
Speaker 1: I said, I'm toying with one now, but I don't
Speaker 1: know if the audience still wants my fantasy, to which
Speaker 1: I responded without a doubt. And then I started to
Speaker 1: write to him, and I spent two amazing lunches with
Speaker 1: him at Universal, where he sang to me, it won't
Speaker 1: be a stylish luncheon. I can't afford a munch, and
Speaker 1: he said, we'll be dining in my dining room in
Speaker 1: my office in my building at Universal. For you, let
Speaker 1: just meet Hitchcock. I'll never forget. Bob Redford was doing
Speaker 1: quiz show when I got a message to him. The
Speaker 1: only reason you're with CIA, by the way, is because
Speaker 1: they can connect you with anyone in the world. Not
Speaker 1: to get a job, by the way, but to talk
Speaker 1: to them on the phone. So I wanted to meet
Speaker 1: Redford and and a car pulls up to my apartment
Speaker 1: in New York, and a town car takes me out
Speaker 1: to New Jersey and there in Secoca shooting quiz show.
Speaker 1: And I go out there and the woman is there
Speaker 1: with the headset, gorgeous woman as there's a chair and
Speaker 1: she goes, it's my chair. I sit down and Bob
Speaker 1: is directing Rob Morrow or David Paymer to do in
Speaker 1: the scene at Bob Box. How you doing, I'll be
Speaker 1: right with you. He directs the scene that they break
Speaker 1: for lunch to go, goes, We're gonna you're gonna have
Speaker 1: lunch of Bob's trailer. You can have lunch of Bob's
Speaker 1: trailer right this way, right this way. It's like Disneyland.
Speaker 1: Everyone's very very happy. They're shooting the movie with Bob Redford.
Speaker 1: So we go. They take me into the trailer and
Speaker 1: read fast as you're a vegetarian, and I said, back then,
Speaker 1: I was a strict vegetarian. And he opens up these
Speaker 1: the woman services from these plastic containers and these tupperware
Speaker 1: of me eat the thing. And Bob's like, how's this?
Speaker 1: And I was married to Max's wife. He worked on
Speaker 1: the Natural with Kim. He said, how's Kim bah blah
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. Smalltalk. Small talk finally goes, so what
Speaker 1: can I do for you? And of course I'm not
Speaker 1: realizing he thinks I'm there to ask him for money
Speaker 1: for like a charity. Maybe I looked at Mike, he goes,
Speaker 1: what can I do for I go, I want you
Speaker 1: to put me in a movie with you. I want
Speaker 1: to be in a movie with you. And think he
Speaker 1: was stunned. That that's why I came all about the
Speaker 1: New Jersey to ask him. He was like, could was
Speaker 1: almost mortified, you know what I mean? And I learned
Speaker 1: that about the business that you don't reach out to them,
Speaker 1: You wait for them to reach out to you. Um,
Speaker 1: We're gonna have time for a couple more, all right ahead, Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, is there anybody here who doesn't have arthritis?
Speaker 1: And uh so it would have to be more more
Speaker 1: than just a labor of love. It would have to
Speaker 1: be so comfortable. And when ingmar came to visit me
Speaker 1: in l A, we thought he'd be living there for
Speaker 1: a while. Uh you know, and he said his agent
Speaker 1: he had to listen to his agent, Paul Corner. I said, well,
Speaker 1: I think of you living in the Pacific Palisades where
Speaker 1: Henry Miller lived, you know, not to live down here.
Speaker 1: It's too hot here. And he said, would you consider
Speaker 1: doing go Off? You're just right for check Off? I said,
Speaker 1: would you direct me? He said yes. I said, well,
Speaker 1: I'll have to go away for oh six seven months
Speaker 1: to learn it, to absorb it, because once you're in
Speaker 1: rehearsals then it's a business. The clock is going like that.
Speaker 1: I'd need to to absorb the text so I could
Speaker 1: integrate with the people, you know, would I I would
Speaker 1: want to keep an open mind, but it would have
Speaker 1: to be so much fun, because then I want to
Speaker 1: do I wouldn't want to give up a performance. This
Speaker 1: is what I really love about Al's commitment to theater Piccino.
Speaker 1: He's really kept it up. I didn't. But he once
Speaker 1: introduced himself to me at the bar at Downey's, you know,
Speaker 1: and we've played cards together. He's a much better with
Speaker 1: Larry cart player. That's what I hear. We are out
Speaker 1: of time, and I just want to finish my saying.
Speaker 1: One thing. Interesting that you reference arthritis. Interesting that your reference.
Speaker 1: But not all of us are as young as we
Speaker 1: used to be. Perhaps, But the interesting thing about you,
Speaker 1: and I mean this from the bottom of my heart.
Speaker 1: It is everything you are on screen you still are
Speaker 1: today in every way. You're just as funny and interesting.
Speaker 1: Everything you have you still have. It's amazing. But's Eric.
Speaker 1: Come on? Elliott Gould live at the Turner Classic Movie
Speaker 1: Film Festival from earlier this year. This is Alec Baldwin
Speaker 1: and you're listening to Here's the thing.