WEBVTT - Elliott Gould: Mash Notes on a Long Career 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:05.800 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing, 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:11.000 My chance to talk with artists, policymakers and performers, to 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:15.400 hear their stories. What inspires their creations, what decisions change 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:22.599 their careers, what relationships influenced their work. I spoke with 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:25.599 Elliott Gould in front of a live audience at the 0:00:25.640 --> 0:00:30.880 Turner Classic Movie Film Festival this past April. Before our conversation, 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:34.080 we watched a clip reel of his films, which included 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:37.080 Mash Bob and Carroll and Ted an Alice and The 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:40.800 Long Goodbye, some of the most iconic films of the 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:46.879 past forty years. Elliott Gould's career spans six decades, and 0:00:47.000 --> 0:00:50.839 unlike many of his peers, he's worked consistently from the start. 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:55.279 Both his career and personal life are full of dramatic 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:59.480 twists and turns. A marriage to Barbra streisand working with 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:03.320 Carrie Rand and George Clooney, a gambling addiction, a role 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:06.960 on the sitcom Friends. There's almost too much to talk about. 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:12.520 Where the hell do I begin? Oh my god, Now 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:16.720 you started in the theater in New York. I started 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:21.440 in uh sort of vaudeville. I played the Palace in 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:26.000 ninety one when I was twelve doing what part of 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:29.520 Somebody's act? I was a messenger boy in the act 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:33.679 Bill Callahan. His name was and but I followed Smith 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:36.640 and Dale. Smith and Dale was the act before us. 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:40.119 They were the original Sunshine Boards. We did four shows 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:42.600 a day, seven days a week, for two weeks. I 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:45.200 got paid fifty bucks a week and I had the 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:47.800 highest dressing room, right, like the fifth floor walk up 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:51.640 dressing room. Yeah. When when you were doing that, you know, 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:56.400 showbiz in your family? Correct, Well, that's pretty pretty funny. 0:01:56.440 --> 0:02:02.080 I think everybody here is in show business. But your parents, no, 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:06.520 they weren't performers. They danced. My father was a good dancer. 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:08.880 He did a Lindy. My mother and I used to 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:14.880 act my uh bar mitzvah. My mother and I tangoed too. 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:20.160 I get ideas. No, no, no, that's the truth. It's 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:22.079 pretty funny. My mother could put a chicken in the oven. 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:27.400 Doesn't make her a chef. You know. It's like, but 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:29.280 you pay your family wasn't in the business. They weren't. 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:33.880 And when you would when you finished, uh not finished, 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:36.320 when you moved on from vaudeville, what was your first 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:38.639 Broadway or off Broadway show you did, was it I 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:40.799 Can get It for your wholesale? Was your from? No? No, 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:44.360 no no. I got a job in a summer stock 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:50.480 production of Annie Get Your Gun with Von Monroe. Do 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:53.960 you remember the name? And uh? But we were going 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:58.240 to be at a place a tent called Brandywine someplace, uh, 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:01.360 on this coast, and there was a storm and it 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:03.360 blew away. So I never got to be to do 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:08.200 the show. And then I got a job for a 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:12.639 segment of the Ernie Kovacs Show with fifty other male dancers. 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:17.919 I was primarily a dancer, and Ernie Kovacs was great. 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:22.560 And then my first Broadway musical was called Rumpel, which 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:26.000 was directed by Jack Donahue and starred Eddie Foyd Jr. 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:31.160 Gretchen Wiler, and Stephen Douglas. So singing and dancing was 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:34.480 primary for you in the beginning, and then later on 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:36.600 did you come back and we visit that in other 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:39.840 projects you've done? I mean other than I never really 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:44.880 had an act. We would go to the Catskill Mountains 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:48.480 as paying customers, and on Sunday nights they would have 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:50.920 me do what I did on Saturday night. I do 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:54.520 a couple of routines, you know, But in the films, 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:56.080 you never sat there and said I'd like to do 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:59.320 a musical in doing your there had been talked of it. 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:01.760 I never did it. But Jimmy conn and I did 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:03.880 a picture called Harry and Walter Go to New York 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:06.480 and we we we did a whole number in the beginning, 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:09.960 which was written by Marilyn and Alan Bergman, which is 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:16.240 nobody's perfect. The uh, I can get it for you wholesale. Obviously, 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:20.400 you meet your first wife. Then well, my first girlfriend, 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:27.960 your first girlfriend. Let's tell us all about that, tell 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:31.520 us all about the oh stupid, but you met she 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:34.400 was your first girlfriend. Well, for we had to cast 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:38.640 the role that I played. Once they cast this part, 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:42.479 then they had all the finalists come in to audition 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:44.800 and with me being there for them to see how 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:50.800 I felt about them. And Barbara auditioned for my secretary 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:56.400 called miss Marmelstein beyond brilliant, just so amazing, and she 0:04:56.600 --> 0:05:00.159 sang three or four songs and then her song. And 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:03.560 Jerome Wideman, who had written the book and it had 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:06.120 been a picture a movie before, we did the musical, 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:10.080 and Susan Hayward played my part, and Dan Daily was 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:13.320 in it too, and Jerome Wideman said to me, what 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:16.160 do you think. I said, she's brilliant, and she presents 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:19.040 herself sort of like the way I think about myself. 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:23.040 She's scared and she's hiding behind things. And I called 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:26.800 her because she announced her number. And then, uh, she said, 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:28.839 I'm singing tonight, come and see me. I said, I 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:31.120 think you're going to be in the show. And once 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:33.520 you're in the show, we can see if we get 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:36.520 to know one another. Is that when she really really 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:39.359 took off during that No, oh no, no, she she's 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:42.760 you would say that she stole the show. It was 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:46.320 the best thing in the show. Uh. And and then 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:50.000 she this was just prior to her first album, and 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:52.159 she had done a Jack Parr show, and she had 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:57.560 done a few talk shows. And her career is, as 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:00.359 we all know, amazing, and she's just one of a 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:03.839 kind and brilliant. She certainly has. Your first film, you 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:06.279 tell me, was with Dieterley, was with William Dieterley. Yes, 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:09.160 your first film? Described that film? What was the film? 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:12.280 The film at the time was called The Confession and 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:16.120 it was going to be shot on the island of 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:20.279 Jamaica at the same time that Dr No was being done, 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:27.000 and also High Wind in Jamaica that Alexander McKendrick did 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:31.240 with Anthony Quinn. And I went in and they asked 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:34.599 me to play a part called Alessandro, who was a 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:39.359 death mute. And the picture was starring Ginger Rogers, my 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:43.120 first star, and h and Raymond Land and William Diechley 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:45.800 was directing it and I was a death mute. And 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:48.599 at the end of the picture, I get shocked into 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:56.560 sang a hearing. I wonder what was it like for 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:59.440 you to go from vaudeville and theater in New York 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:01.520 and to do your first film. When you were making 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:03.359 your first film, did you say yous of oh this 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:05.320 is it? Because I as you and I bought other 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:07.840 people who come on and they're like them. They were 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:10.360 born on a sound stage in Hollywood, and it took 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:14.880 me three films to find the camera. The first first film, 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:19.720 and I know you understand this was William Dicholi, who 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:23.400 had directed Charles Lawton as the Hunchback of Notre Dame 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:27.160 Beautiful film and Paul Muni as a bunch of stuff 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:32.320 that he did, and um, he was calling me Nugent, Nugent. 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:35.480 There was an Elliott Nugent, so in his mind, I 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:38.120 was at Elliott Nugent. Doesn't matter to me. I don't 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:41.640 care who anyone is, you know, And I call you nugent, 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:44.440 call me anything, I'll give you a better name than that. 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:48.320 So so you he kept calling you nugent when when 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:50.160 you were there was did you sit there and say, oh, 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:51.360 I don't have it. I don't know if I have 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:53.800 what it takes to make films or no. No, I 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:58.880 mean I had no experience. I remember one Sunday there 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:06.080 was an actor's on a benefit of Hamlet with h 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:08.840 Richard Burton, and I wanted to see it, and Barbara 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:10.520 was here in New York, and I want and I 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:13.000 came back, which was more than naughty and not supposed 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:15.160 to leave. I left the island to come to see that. 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:18.360 And I got back and Ginger Rogers and her husband 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:24.600 said no, no, that's no. I said, okay, I really 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:26.080 wanted to see it, you know, and I had a 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:27.960 really good tan. I wanted to proper to see my 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:35.160 tan also. Uh. But in this scene where my character 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:39.040 is shocked because everyone's looking for treasure and the treasure 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:43.160 is inside of a statue nobody and it sort of falls, 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:46.160 and so I'm shocked into and I didn't know what 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:49.840 to do. And I went to see digitally there with 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:54.360 about five thirty in the late afternoon, early evening, and 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:56.760 I said, do you have a thought for me or 0:08:56.800 --> 0:08:59.400 what to do? And he said, then I did act 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:07.800 the Lawton in Hunchback of Notre Dame. He went and 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:12.800 then he went and his wife, who was always there, 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:19.960 and she said, he's sleep now, because the next day 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:22.200 I did it. And I blew myself out in in 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:25.880 the rehearsal because I was more than insecure. I mean, 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:28.920 you know, I took a deep breath, but you got 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:31.199 to do it over and over and over again. So 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:35.280 on a Richter scale, in the first picture, I was zero. 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:38.520 I wasn't below it or I wasn't above it. I 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:41.520 just did it and got through it. Remember, because I 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:43.760 remember the same thing I did a TV show years ago. 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:45.839 You don't want to be caught with your pants down 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:48.160 energy wise. I don't want to be dull, so I 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:52.360 would over invest and mellow dramatize things I did. I 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:55.680 did a TV show and the character uh, a woman 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:59.240 was a benefactress of a medical center and she was 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:01.840 going to withdraw all her funding of the medical center 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:04.079 because she didn't appreciate some of the work we were doing. 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:05.720 And I have a scene with her work in front 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:07.640 of her, and when they rolled the camera, I was like, 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:12.640 you know, you don't I stand it was this place, 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:18.000 would like I'm sobbing, and the directors like, whoa, we 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:20.320 got another We got another forty minutes to go here. 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:24.720 I mean, but in things I've read about whether you 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:27.080 said this yourself or not, or what was said about you, 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:31.199 was it Working with Altman was a big seminal thank 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:34.880 for you that he helped you to open up. And 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:37.720 he gave me so much space. I mean. Prior to 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:43.040 working with Bob, I had made a second film that 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:45.920 Billy Freakin did the night they rated Minsky's, and I 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:49.000 played the last scene that Bert lar Ever did. And 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:51.880 now that I have an idea of how to breathe 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:55.280 from the first film, now I'm playing the title role 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:57.400 in the Night they rated Minsky's. But I had no 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:01.439 idea about light or a camera and Bert Laar this 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:04.240 is his his last scene because he didn't finish the picture. 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:08.559 He passed away, and I would be taking a position 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:13.680 and putting his shadow on me, and and he would 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:16.120 be adjusting and we'd be moving, but the camera had 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:18.880 to be stationary. And we did it over and over 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:22.079 and over again, and and Bert Laura brought me home 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:25.079 that night. He had an apartment of Park Avenue, and 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:27.360 he said to his life, look what I brought with me. 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:32.680 That was Burt laura third film, Paul Masserski's first film, 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:35.560 and Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice. I discovered 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:40.840 my first objective relationship in life and existence with the camera. 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:44.880 I realized that the camera doesn't give me problems. I 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:47.240 give me problems. The camera will never lie to me 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:51.400 and will never manipulate me. So we were all set up, 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:54.080 we had always many people as are in the room, 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:57.440 and then we had to break for union regulations. I 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:00.560 think we're both unionists, but we had to break, and 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:02.360 so I had no place to go as usual, and 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:05.120 they turned the lights down and left the set there, 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:09.120 and I just sat there. And that's when I got it. 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.240 That's when I got it. So when I went back 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:14.960 to New York to start to do a show play 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:18.440 that Alan Schneider, who had directed the original Virginia Wolf, 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:21.720 they replaced him, and then they replaced me. But I 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:25.719 had found my relationship with the camera and and so 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:27.880 I came out to Los Angeles and was asked to 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:31.760 meet Bob Altman, and Bob Altman gave me the script 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.720 to mash and he asked me to read it. And 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:36.679 I came in and he said, would you consider playing 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:39.600 the American Southerner? I said, I've never questioned an offer, 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:44.240 but I'll be so intense and drive myself crazy validating 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:47.560 me as an American Southerner. But this guy, if you 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:51.319 haven't cast Trapper John, I got the juice for that. 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:55.679 I know, I know what that guy has. And it's 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:57.520 like he let me cast myself. And when you did 0:12:57.559 --> 0:12:59.320 Bob and Carroll? What was that film like for you 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:05.800 to shoot and Carroll? Yes? How was Missoursky as a director? Great? Uh? 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:12.800 I was incredibly insecure and frightened about the the sexual 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:16.719 part of it. I really didn't have very much confidence. 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:22.960 But then Larry Tucker and Paul Missourski, they were partners. 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:25.920 They wrote it and they had improvised the bedroom scene, 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:29.640 the scene with the Diane Cannon and me, and it 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:33.440 was funny. It was just so so right. So I 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:37.439 was able to do that. And with Missouriski, the thing 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:39.200 in there when he goes that I don't know what 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:42.080 to do? That was that was for real. I asked 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:44.160 him if I could do that. He said, do anything 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:47.520 that that you want. It's funny when you do sex 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:50.320 scenes and films you had an issue with doing you 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:54.480 didn't feel confident. Why well, how well, we didn't really 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:57.240 do anything even when we were in bed, even the 0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:01.760 idea where I had a prepping brushing my teeth, gargling, 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:05.360 you know, and putting deodor into on. I mean a 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:12.479 lot of us are like that, weren't you? Sure? Yeah, 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.600 I was so nervous every time. I'm nervous. Um. But 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:19.040 the but but I'm saying, as you say, you lacked confidence, 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:22.760 and then, uh, I lacked confidence in me and I 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:26.800 had a very little experience and therefore at that point 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:32.400 to exhibit or be as as transparent as I am. 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:34.960 I have a lot of experience now in the work, 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:42.160 you know, in life. So I understand, I'm I'm in balance. 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:44.560 But but for me, when I look at me, I'm 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:46.440 in the clip real obviously, just as a as a 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:50.240 guide to this, it's eventually become someone who's supremely confident 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:51.680 in front of the camera. You know, you really have 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.440 a great with it. Yeah, well I've worked for George. 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:59.160 You know it's more than it's maturing. I mean even 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:06.320 after uh working within Mark Berkman, which was like you 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:11.360 know beyond uh you know to work. This is a 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:17.400 business and uh, it's a business that's driven by the audience. 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:21.680 And and you know this and I didn't always know it. 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:26.120 Uh you know who Jerry West is? Right, So I 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:29.440 said too, we're friendly. And I've said I always thought 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.000 it was about talent, but now I believe it's about character. 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.400 You can be born with talent, but character is something 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:39.360 that we have to develop through experience, through education. And 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:42.560 he educated me in a moment, Jerry did, because on 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:45.600 this level, you have to be talented, but I mean, 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:50.080 nobody can teach you character. You have to have character. 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:53.080 You have to know and I didn't have perspective and 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:55.800 I didn't have judgment, and so I had to put 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:59.200 myself through a lot of stuff. But I never gave 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:01.120 in and never gave up. But still you've got to 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:03.960 be employed. In order to gain this experience. You've got 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:07.080 to work. I mean, I I the older I get, 0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:09.480 and the more I have done this, the more technical 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:11.600 it becomes. To me, you either you have the inspiration 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:15.000 or you don't. Well, that's nature. What I've recently discovered 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:18.960 is that what's true and what's real is not necessarily 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:21.720 the same. And to me, I can only talk for myself. 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:26.720 What's true is what you feel. Nature is true, what's real. 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:30.080 Sometimes we invent what's real, and I have found that 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:33.160 the corporate intelligence will build on that and it can 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:37.000 be misleading to us. As far as being alive in 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:40.640 everything we do, sometimes we have to be technical. I've 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:42.800 done some work where I said, it's very difficult for 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:46.640 me not to be natural, so let me make my mistakes. 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:51.760 I'll I'll make several mistakes over and over again until 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:55.239 I can master that and do it because being dependable 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:58.720 and being reliable is the basis of of of the work. 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:02.920 I found that the you know for me, the longer 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:05.880 longer I've done it in my life. The thing I've 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:09.399 fantasized about is to have worked with great directors. And 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:11.639 you worked with a lot of great directors. What do 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:14.240 you think Almen hired you for? What did he see 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:21.600 in you? We're gonna be out of time very soon. 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:27.240 No no no, no no no. It's a possibly an 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:32.600 energy and energy which was necessary because I mean we 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:36.320 that was the first of quite a few opportunities that 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:40.600 we had to work together. So I don't quite know 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:48.080 what Bob necessarily saw in me, but I was able 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:53.320 to get past myself and express myself and free myself 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:56.280 to do what he was doing. I never worked like 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:59.920 that before. I was a chorus boy, a tap dancer, 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:02.879 a real good tapp answer. And so I said, I 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:07.040 understand repetition, and I understand precision, and we'll do it 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:13.800 until you're satisfied. Robert Altman he published me first as 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:18.359 his enemy because I I was always wanting things to 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:20.840 be prepared and to know what the next. But in life, 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:24.480 you don't know what's next. And I've seen and learned 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:29.199 through Bob that his work, that Altman's work, uh is 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:32.080 about life taking its course, which to me is the 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:36.719 most interesting thing. Aldman said that I was the most 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:41.640 h honest actor that he that he knew. Nichols said 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:45.400 that about about Nicholson. I said, why did you love Nicholson? 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:48.679 Because he had no vanity? You know, when he when 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:51.639 he let himself go, when he was kind of a 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:54.439 little rounder, and he did terms of endearment and he 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:56.760 lays on the bed and pats the bed. For surely 0:18:56.840 --> 0:18:59.280 McLean's has come on up here, come on up here. 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:02.639 We're friendly. Jackie. I like to call him Jackie, you know, 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:04.600 or do you really Yeah, Jackie, I want to call 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:10.159 you a b I love it. I love it well. 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:13.159 Nicholson whether we talked about directors, if I did this 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:17.600 little survey of for HBO about Ken, we interviewed Polanski, 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:20.120 and later on I saw Nicholson and I couldn't help 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:21.600 but ask him, you know, what was it like to 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:24.680 do China Temper was like to be directed by Polanski? 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:27.560 And Nicholson said that to be on the set with 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:30.720 Houston and Polanski. So Houston is in the one of 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:32.920 the greatest directors of all time is acting in the film, 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:36.919 and polanskys there. Nicholson said that Houston called him Roman. 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:42.720 We called him Roman, and he studied, tourned him and said, 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:48.879 now Roman really only two directions, a little more and 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:57.600 a little less like Boy. It seemed to have served 0:19:57.680 --> 0:19:59.840 him pretty well. You know. It was a lot of 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:02.400 a people who don't know. But when you see mash 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:05.280 I mean, the two of you are so Donald was such, 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:11.000 you know, he was cast before me and Bob Altman 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:13.520 asked me to have lunch with him once we set 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:16.320 me and the commissary at Fox, and it was just 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:20.439 me and Donald at lunch. And my first sense was 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:23.919 I didn't think he liked me. I thought, whatever, you know, 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:26.439 but we we got a long grade and we we 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:30.680 stayed together, Donald and me, Bob and everyone. I wouldn't 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:33.000 look at any film. I wouldn't look at any dailies. 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:35.080 I don't want to fall in love with anything. It's 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:39.480 it's just work and getting it, and we did. We 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:42.479 did three films together. Donald was it was what was 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:47.320 mash because of that a live quality, that immediacy to 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:49.840 it that I see whenever I see that film. Is 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:51.720 it a lot of it was a lot of improvisation? 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:55.760 Was it all written down or most of it written down? Well? 0:20:55.960 --> 0:21:02.200 When we showed Ring Lardner Jr. The film Uh at 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:07.479 Fox with the cast there, and I probably I may 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:09.600 have already seen it, and I was showing Donald how 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:12.359 to play against the wall like with a spaldine, like 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:14.600 you know, a street game with a ball and pretend 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:17.480 to be baseball. And that was the night that lou 0:21:17.560 --> 0:21:20.760 al Cinder was playing against Will Chamberlain and and the 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:22.800 picture had been shown and we were there on the 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:25.080 back lot and ring Lardner walked up to me and 0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:27.520 I thought, what are you talking to me? It's not 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:31.600 my picture? And uh he said, you know, how could 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:34.000 you do this to me? There's not a word that 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:37.760 I wrote on screen? And ring Lardner went on to 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:39.800 win the Academy Award that year for the Best Screen. 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:51.399 I think that ring Lardner now, when he asked you 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:56.800 to come to uh the marlaw was aftermash the director 0:21:56.840 --> 0:21:58.959 who we thought was going to do it. Another director 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:02.040 couldn't see me in it, and and I was thinking 0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:06.240 in terms of uh Lee Marvin, the great Lee Marvin, 0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:09.920 and Robert Mitchum, the great Robert Mitchum. And I said, well, 0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:12.640 I mean, I can't argue with them. They're like my uncle's. 0:22:12.880 --> 0:22:16.639 But we've seen them. You haven't seen me. But and 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:19.199 then they gave it to Bob and Bob called me 0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:21.720 from Ireland where he was finishing images, and he said 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:23.600 to me, what do you think? And I said, I've 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:25.720 always wanted to play this guy. And Bob said, you 0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:28.240 are this guy and that was the beginning of the picture. 0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:32.880 What was the specific challenge for you to do that film? Because, 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:34.879 like a lot of people, we'll say to you if 0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:37.920 you're reprising a role that other people have their fingerprints on. 0:22:38.520 --> 0:22:40.679 I did street Car on Broadway and people always like, well, 0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:43.200 what about you know? You know? And I was like, Okay, 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:46.119 if you want to see the show live on Broadway tonight, 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:49.160 I'm it. He's not here, right yeah, right right, He's 0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:52.879 up on Mulholland Drive right now, dinner. And uh, you know, 0:22:52.920 --> 0:22:54.080 I'm kind of it right now if you want to 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:58.680 buy a ticket. But every perception is every every job 0:22:58.800 --> 0:23:01.439 is a challenge. But when you did it, do you 0:23:01.480 --> 0:23:04.640 weren't conscious of ghosts and things like that? You know nothing. 0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:08.760 I grew up watching a bog Art, you know, and uh, 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:13.200 I mean bog Art. It can't compare anyone to bog Art, 0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:16.400 And so I just knew it was going to be 0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:22.720 something different. And and Bob who told me I scared 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:25.280 him in it because he gave me all of this 0:23:25.440 --> 0:23:31.679 space and I'm painting a picture, and um so and 0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:34.480 when when we tested ninav and Palant, I didn't see 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:36.800 her in it. I thought it would would have been 0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:40.000 somewhat a bit younger, but I knew Alman knows what 0:23:40.080 --> 0:23:43.160 he wants. So I got my wardrobe when we did 0:23:43.160 --> 0:23:46.040 the screen test for Nina van Palant, you know, a 0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:51.120 mismatched jacket and pants and a tie, which was my 0:23:51.240 --> 0:23:54.119 statement because when I go into the water into the 0:23:54.160 --> 0:23:56.800 ocean and nearly drowned that night, I have a little 0:23:56.960 --> 0:24:00.520 American flags on it which you can't even see, and 0:24:00.560 --> 0:24:02.959 I keep my shoes are on, my jack everything's on, 0:24:03.000 --> 0:24:05.080 and I just take the tie off to give to her, 0:24:05.240 --> 0:24:09.040