WEBVTT - A Southern Hills Preview (ft. Gil Hanse) 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.520 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:04.920 When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:05.880 And when I find my. 0:00:05.840 --> 0:00:09.319 Ball in a brid Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Friday, 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:11.360 Frida Egg, Brian Egg, Frida Egg. 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:13.320 Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:14.320 Of the humped. 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:38.000 Hello and welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast. My name 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:41.760 is Garrett Morrison. I'm here today with Andy Johnson. Andy, 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:42.960 how has your day been so far? 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:47.280 It's been delightful. Excited to talk with you about Southern Hills. 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:51.400 Yeah, we're diving into Southern Hills Country Club today, host 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:55.080 of the twenty twenty two PGA Championship. It is three 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:58.840 weeks until the PGA Championship, so we are officially ahead 0:00:58.840 --> 0:00:59.880 of schedule. 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:00.840 Here, Yeah, way ahead. 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:03.400 But it's good to get this out, give people some 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:06.040 time to digest and and get ready for the PGA. 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:08.800 I mean, it's a it's it's gonna be a really 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:11.960 cool event and a really cool course and I think, 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:15.440 you know, if the conditions play right this this could 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:16.959 end up being the start of the show. 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:18.720 I think, a start of the year. 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:21.760 You know, whether or not the weather works it's a 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:25.319 it's a really noteworthy course to look at. But if 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:29.039 the weather works out and uh it's firm, this this 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:32.200 place could be really really fun to uh to watch 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:33.199 tournament golf at. 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:38.520 This is May in Tulsa, Oklahoma. So I'm not exactly 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:39.640 sure what to expect. 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:43.720 That's that's the thing about May and Tulsa is that 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:48.400 it's the weather. It's pretty temperamental and unpredictable. I think 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:52.160 we see it every year. You know, Dallas isn't close, 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:54.000 but it's not that far away, and we see it 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:57.560 every year with a with the tour in May in Dallas. 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:00.360 Is you know that the weather could be really great 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:03.440 and it could be like a rocket ship out there, 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:07.400 firm and fast, or it could be really rainy and 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:12.399 you could get severe storms. But you know, if it's 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:16.880 the firm and nice weather, that's the thing. And either way, 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:19.480 the architecture is really good here and it's going to 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:22.920 be fun to watch regardless of whether it's softer firm. 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:26.160 It'll be fun to look at no matter what. And 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:29.639 I think that people who remember Southern Hills from the 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:32.160 two thousand and seven PGA Championship and from the two 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:36.800 thousand and one US Open are going to be surprised 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:40.840 at how different this course looks now, and so we'll 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:43.160 get into all that stuff in this podcast. We've got 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:47.480 a clip from an interview with Gil Hants. We did 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:49.560 a big interview with Gil Hans, about an hour and 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:53.519 a half and we devoted around fifteen to twenty minutes 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:56.639 of that interview to Southern Hills and we'll play that 0:02:56.880 --> 0:03:00.000 portion of that interview in this episode. But first we're 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:03.120 just going to kind of generally introduce the course. So 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:06.720 it was designed by Perry Maxwell. It opened in nineteen 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:11.040 thirty six. It was renovated opened doctor style by Robert 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:14.639 Trent Jones in nineteen fifty eight. Since then, it has 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:18.720 hosted three US Opens and four PGA Championships. This will 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:22.760 be its fifth PGA championship this year, and over the 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:29.040 past twenty years it has undergone various renovations and restorations. First, 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:31.799 Keith Foster did some work between the two thousand and 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:34.600 one US Open in the two thousand and seven PGA, 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:37.480 and what he did was really significant. You know, there 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:40.320 was quite a bit of tree removal, there was some 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:43.560 widening of fairways, there was some restoration of short grass, 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:47.280 and so that was important stuff and we shouldn't forget that. 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:51.280 But I think most significant was what happened in the 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:54.760 past few years at that course when Gil Hans and 0:03:54.800 --> 0:04:00.120 his team did what Hans calls a historical renovations. So 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:04.480 he did bunker work, greenwork, tree removal, but at the 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.800 same time he made some updates, some changes in order 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:12.520 to prepare the course for this for a major championship. 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:14.560 It wasn't known when he did this work that it 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:17.599 would get the PGA Championship because, of course, Southern Hills 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:21.080 was a kind of last minute sub when Trump Bedminster 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:25.480 was no longer a place that the PGA of America 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:29.360 wanted to go. So Southern Hills has subbed in, and 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:32.280 it should be it should be ready for prime time. So, 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:36.440 just as a general appetizer before we get to the 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:40.360 Gill tape here, why do you think people should be 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:43.920 excited for Southern Hills as a PGA Championship venue? What's 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:45.000 special about this course? 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:49.799 So when you cover the professional game and the modern game, 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:53.360 really you start to realize what are the courses that 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:57.400 stand out that really test players and are really fun 0:04:57.440 --> 0:04:59.800 to watch. And obviously you know at the top of 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:03.720 the is Augusta National. And what are the ingredients that 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:06.960 go into Augusta National that make it so compelling to watch? 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:10.760 Obviously everybody's so familiar with the golf course. But you've 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:14.839 got topography, severe topography that creates a lot of uneven 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:19.440 lies and fairways. You've got immense short grass at Augusta National, 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:24.000 You've got undulating greens, small targets. And now if you 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:27.520 if you think about Augusta, another really really fun major 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:29.040 course to watch is Shinnacock. 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:30.560 And what's Shinnakok have. 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.800 It's got short grass, it's got it's got terrain that 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:37.800 creates uneven lies and uphill and dramatic uphill and downhill shots. 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:43.480 It's got small, undulating greens and difficult targets to hit, 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:47.960 especially from uneven lies that are you're when you're hitting 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:52.160 uphill or downhill from them. And and Shinnacock is always firm. 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:55.560 That's the thing that it has that has really vexed players. 0:05:56.640 --> 0:06:00.520 One other thing that neither of those courses that has that, 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:04.360 but we see on the PGA tour regularly that really 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:09.800 Flummox's players is Bermuda Rough and uh Southern Hills has 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:13.320 Bermuda Rough and it it. You know, the thing about 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:16.320 bermuda rough is it doesn't need to be your eight 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:19.599 inch bent or rye or bent grass rough to be 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:26.880 really tough. Short bermuda rof is extraordinarily unpredictable and it has, you. 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:29.640 Know, the ability you. 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:32.599 It really plays mind games with players because it's hard 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:36.160 to figure out what the lie is gonna do. And 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:39.800 when you when you add that into Southern Hills, which 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:44.279 has all the other aforementioned ingredients that we love. It's 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:48.200 got topography, it's got movement. You know, it's not Augustin 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:52.200 National It's it doesn't have that much, but it has 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:55.480 a lot of topography. You know, nobody really has august 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:59.799 Nationals topography. It's got small targets. It's got these greens. 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:04.400 They're surrounded with short grass and they're undulating in pockets 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:07.560 and they create those micro targets. Everybody likes to talk 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.680 about how Augusta is this second shot course, it's because 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:13.880 the greens have these small little pockets that you want 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:16.320 to get to, and if you get there, you have 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:19.000 really makeable putts. And that's the same thing you're going 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:22.640 to see at Southern Hills from undulating lies. But then 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:27.600 you also throw in that Bermuda rough and we're gonna 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:30.680 see great recovery shots from the Bermuda rough. That's the 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:33.920 thing that's great about it is it allows you to recover, 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:36.920 but it also can make you look like an idiot 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:39.720 because you can catch a flyer when you don't expect 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:42.440 a flyer, and you might end up twenty yards over 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:45.400 the ball. Might you might expect a ball to jump 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:47.440 and it might come out dead and you end up 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:51.320 fifteen yards short and you're running trundling down one of 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:54.480 those great false fronts at Southern Hills. 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:56.400 So I think. 0:07:56.360 --> 0:08:01.480 If the weather permits it to be firm, this whole 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:05.000 recipe could make it really one of the most fun 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:08.280 championship courses we've seen in a long time because of 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:12.480 everything that Gil and Jim Wagner have brought out in 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:16.080 this restoration, which is, you know, getting the fairways out 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:19.520 to where they're thirty five forty yards wide, getting the 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:23.400 trees back and unpeeling some more of the great creeks 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:27.680 that run through the golf course, and then the short 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:30.480 grass around the greens that is going to lead to 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:35.120 balls repelling away and running away. And you know, anybody 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:38.520 that watched that US Open at Shinnacok. You remember just 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:42.280 the fear that it put into players right off the bat, 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:45.160 where they knew if they missed the first green or 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:47.959 the tenth green, the first green long or the tenth 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:50.920 green short, that that ball was going to run away 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:54.439 into very undesirable. All of a sudden, it just messes 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:57.199 with targets. It makes it a little bit more difficult 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:00.640 to really get into those small pockets. It's because you 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:04.079 have fear about where that ball is going to go 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:06.560 if you miss just a little bit of ways, as 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:10.440 opposed to long grass around the greens that's velcrow. You know, 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:14.600 the idea of that ball getting away, you know, missing 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:17.839 a shot by two yards and not staying two yards 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:21.240 off the green it could run twenty yards away is 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:26.120 a real big deterrent in these guys. So I think 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:31.320 if it's firm and that really presents that situation, that's 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:33.560 where this could be the tournament of the year and 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:34.600 the golf course of the year. 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:36.240 And we're talking about it. 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:38.440 It's up against the old course and you know it 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.800 was a great Masters and you know this country club, Yeah, 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:45.080 the country Club Brookline is going to be really visually stunning. 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:48.600 This can be this can be the tournament of the year. 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:51.280 Yeah, I mean that's a big statement, but I think 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:55.000 it's true. I think it'll certainly be the most surprising 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:57.720 course of the year for people. And you know, just 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:00.520 one thing to add to what you're saying about how 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:03.520 there's going to be a real emphasis on getting to 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:06.640 the right section of the green and if you're in 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:08.719 one of these weird lies in the rough or an 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:12.920 uneven lie in the fair way, things could go sideways 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:17.160 pretty quickly. One factor that's really going to enhance that 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:21.400 is the fact that Gil Hans and Jim Wagner leveled 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:24.640 off the edges of the greens which had built up 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:27.920 over time they had, you know, as as greens often do. 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:30.800 We talked about this in the Pasa Tiempo podcast recently, 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:34.680 where just through sand splash and through top dressing, the 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:37.800 edges of greens tend to rise up, tend to bulge up, 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:41.440 and it creates this kind of bowl like effect where 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:44.360 balls will kind of collect to the middle, they won't 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:48.719 run off the edges as much. Well, in their historical renovation, 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:53.120 Hans and Wagner leveled those edges off, and so now 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:55.880 what you have at Southern Hills are a lot of 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:59.280 crowned greens of the type that people associate with Pinehurst 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:03.000 number two now, and that's just going to kind of 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:08.120 exacerbate the effect of misses. You know, balls are really 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:12.720 going to shoot off greens to far away places if 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:16.720 players miss on their approaches. So I think a couple 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:18.720 of things that are going to be really emphasized in 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:22.880 this PGA Championship are approach play, you know, from variable lies, 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:26.320 players who can really hit golf shots and not just 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:29.440 hit driving range shots, and then players who can recover, 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:32.320 who can lag put really well, and who can hit 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:33.960 great chip shots. 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:37.319 Yeah, I think it will mirror Masters. 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:40.400 Is kind of what we look at with Masters, and 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:44.199 it's not as wide as Augusta, so you know, it 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:46.320 might you might need to be a little bit more 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:49.199 accurate driver of the golf ball. But when you talk 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:51.840 about the number one player in the world, Scottie Scheffler, 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:55.360 and what the skills we saw on display at Augusta 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:58.360 and why he you know, and he's on the record 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:01.600 saying Southern Hills is his favorite golf course anywhere. There's 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:04.400 a reason, and it is because it places a big 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:05.720 emphasis on approach play. 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:07.319 You have to drive the. 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:11.760 Ball reasonably well, but then you're going to miss some 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:14.360 greens and you're going to get into some precarious places 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:16.920 because of the nature of the golf course. And then 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:20.040 it becomes you know at Southern Hills with the short 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:23.600 grass expansion. You know what I love about it is 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:27.000 you're hitting shots and Mike Clayton, I think has used 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:29.800 this expression and where I picked it up. You're hitting 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:34.439 extraordinarily difficult shots from perfect lives. And what it does 0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:37.120 is it opens up what we're going to get to 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:40.040 see is what's in everybody's back. We're going to see 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:42.880 a wide range of shots. We're a array of shots. 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:45.200 We're going to see those types of shots, like the 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:49.120 most thrilling shot we saw at the last Masters, which 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:52.840 was Scottie Scheffler's bump and run up a significant hill 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:57.400 where he chose to just line it into that slope 0:12:57.520 --> 0:12:59.840 and bump it up when he had a hole. Yeah, 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:02.040 he had a bunch of different shots he makes it, 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:04.920 but he hit a real daring and different shot than 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:07.560 we typically see week in week out on tour, which 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:11.760 is generally auto lob wedge, opened the face and hit 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:15.120 something high and lofted, which was immediately after him what 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:17.960 cam Smith did, which was a safer shot. 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:18.679 In that situation. 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:22.800 So what is going to do is it really in 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:25.760 across the golf course with what you said with the 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:28.360 uneven lines, this is not driving range golf. It's going 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:32.360 to be about who's got the most shots, especially if 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:34.400 it's firm. You know, if it's soft, it's going to 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:37.120 mute some of that, but if it's firm, it's really 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:38.880 going to be about golf shots. 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:42.240 All right, let's go to the gil Hans tape and 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:44.760 he's gonna mention some of the things that we talked 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:48.600 about here, but really what we focused on was some 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.720 some things that he brought out in the work that 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:54.360 he did at the course over the past few years. 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:56.880 And then we're going to go through a kind of 0:13:56.960 --> 0:13:59.840 tour of a lot of the back nine and Gill's 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:02.280 going to give his thoughts on the course. So let's 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:05.200 go to that tape and we'll come back in on 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.640 the other side. 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:13.880 So Southern Hills, Uh, it's gonna make its return to 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:18.960 Majrix Golf this year. You completed a restoration I don't 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:22.640 really know what to call restorations, and renovations exactly. 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:24.560 We've got a new term. What is it. 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:26.640 We call it historic renovations. 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:27.840 Historic renovation. 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:30.720 I love that that gets you. It covers all the bases. 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:34.560 It's basically if if the impetus for changes. And we 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:37.560 started talking about that after we moved the Sahara on 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:39.960 the seventeenth hole at Baltus Roll on the lower course, 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:42.240 which we didn't restore it because we didn't put it 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:44.120 back where it was. We moved it down range, but 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:47.040 we did it in a historic fashion. 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:50.760 Has it been excited that restovation is just too stupid? 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:53.280 Yeah? Absolutely, I hate that work. 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:57.960 Yeah, that makes friends whenever I see and sympathetic renovation, 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:01.720 Sympathetic restoration or sympathet renovation has been around for a while. 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:02.160 Sympathy. 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:05.680 I think Brian Silva coined the sympathetic restoration turn back 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:08.720 in the late eighties early nineties. I guess the first 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:10.920 time I've heard that, that's when you guys are still 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:11.640 in middle school. 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:12.160 Yeah. 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:16.000 I was just getting born and Cameron was in Yeah, 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:21.200 he wasn't even around. Historic renovation is kind of what 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:24.520 we're and I think that's probably applicable for southern hills. 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:28.600 Yeah, what about southern hills makes it such a stern 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.120 test of a golfer's ability. 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:34.160 I think ultimately it's going to come down to the greens. 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:39.480 I mean those small targets, and in the restoration of 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:41.560 the green complexes that Jim and I did there, it 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:44.720 was definitely we found there was a lot of build 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:47.400 up on the edges. So the old bunkers had, you know, 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:49.920 the sand build up had occurred, and then through construction 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:53.520 methodologies they had converted them to USGA greens a while ago. 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:55.440 There was a lot of sort of. 0:15:57.040 --> 0:16:00.120 Shelf kind of building along the edge of them, and 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:02.440 so we pulled all that back away and based on 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:05.840 all the old photographs that we had seen, and so 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:09.040 I think now you have to be incredibly respectful of 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:11.400 the edges of the greens because balls are just going 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:13.600 to run away, and the short of the restoration of 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:16.680 the short grass around there. So I think it's ultimately 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:19.640 going to come down to the greens, and hopefully the 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:23.120 weather cooperates and we get them pretty firm, because then 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:24.440 I think it's going to be a true test of 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:29.760 really ball striking ability because the targets are tiny to 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:32.120 access or get close to a whole locations. 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:36.560 So you know Robert Trent Jones's idea of a championship test, 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:39.760 and Robert tren Jones, of course famously renovated the course 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:42.160 in the fifties to prepare it for a US Open. 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:47.400 His idea of a championship test was, you know, long holes, 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:51.200 heavily guarded landing zones for the drive and the approach, 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:55.400 and there was a demand for an aerial attack and 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:59.720 that's sort of what Southern Hills became broadly. How do 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:02.480 you think think the test is different now, Is that 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:05.639 it's more at the greens or how would you characterize 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:09.480 the difference between the RTJ test and the test that 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:13.280 exists there and will greet players at the PGA Championship. 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:13.560 Yeah. 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:15.880 I think the thing that Jim and I have worked 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:19.679 really hard at is just trusting the original architects. You know, 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:23.000 It's not like there was a period in time and 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:25.960 Robert tren Jones was a practitioner of that where they 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:27.920 felt like they needed to make changes to the originally 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:31.720 designed to toughen it for But we believe that, yeah, 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:34.760 we need appropriately to have length on the tees and 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:37.080 the bunkers if they can be put in position to 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:39.760 challenge those guys will do it, but from the standpoint 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:42.280 of just trust that Maxwell got it right there or 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:44.440 the tilling has got it right, and just go with 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:46.639 what they're original. So when you're talking about originally, you're 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:52.080 talking about similar playing corridors, removing trees, expanding fairways, allowing 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:54.560 the slope and the contour of the ground to actually 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:58.320 feedballs in different areas, and have to be more thoughtful 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:02.000 about placement. Even though the fairways are wider, they may 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:04.879 not effectively be wider because where we've expanded may have 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:07.400 gone into areas that really slope off and will feed 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:12.320 balls to the rough. I think a re emphasis on 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:15.919 the little creeks that run through Southern Hills has been 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:19.000 an important part of the restoration that we did there. 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:21.359 I think from that standpoint, you're going to see, especially 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:23.439 on the holes like ten creeks are going to come 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:28.320 much more in Play eighteen with the fairway being restored 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:30.120 to come back down the creek going all the way 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:32.520 across the fairway as it originally did. So I think 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:35.919 opening and restoring a lot of those features will provide 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:37.720 a more interesting test off of the tea. 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:39.320 And I think. 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:44.680 I mean members always inappropriately, so I mean, they're proud 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:47.680 of their golf course and they get worried about the score, right, 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:51.000 And I think that one of the things that Jim 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:53.800 and I have come to understand more is just its 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:56.600 ultimately comes down to that week. You know, it's not 0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:59.160 an indictment of the architecture of the golf course. If 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:01.800 the guys shoot ten, twelve, fourteen under. If it's soft, 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:04.639 you know, everybody talks, well, if it's soft, it's going 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:06.639 to play longer, longer. It doesn't matter for those guys, 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:09.720 it really doesn't. And so I think it ultimately comes 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:14.359 down to firmness and having the golf course allowed to 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:17.520 maximize all those features that Maxwell would have put into it, 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:19.879 or the tilling hats would have put into a baltis Rol, etcetera, 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:23.000 and just allowing those things to play again the way 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:26.480 they had intended to. But if it rains all week, 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:28.359 then we know that's out the window. And it's, not, 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:30.560 as I said, an indictment on the golf course or anything. 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:33.360 It's just happens to be. That's the way it is. 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:33.719 You know. 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:38.320 I don't think the general public, or even people who 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:41.480 think about architecture though that much think about the realities 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:44.040 of that it boils down to those four days, right, 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:46.360 and or boils down to the three days before the tournament, 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:48.080 et cetera, et cetera. And I think that's why you're 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:51.639 starting to see an investment in a lot of the 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:55.040 infrastructure that these clubs are putting in. Is what can 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:59.000 they do to try to help control or at least 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:02.280 have a more predictable come if they get bad weather conditions? 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:03.480 You know, what can they do to get the golf 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:06.080 course back quicker? And I think that that's something that 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:10.119 the governing bodies really like the potential for that to happen. 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:16.440 You know, everybody goes into a championship week with a mindset. 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:19.240 Carrie hag goes in with the mindset. John Bodenhammer goes 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:21.200 in with the mindset, and then you know, it's the 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:23.800 old Mike Tyson, right. Everybody's got a plan until they 0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:26.000 get punched in the face and you just have to 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:29.240 react to what you've got there. And if this infrastructural 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.320 up if the infrastructural upgrades allow you to get closer 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:35.880 to what you want as you go into the week, 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:38.000 then I think that's what they're what they're seeking. 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:40.320 Sorry, I went away off on a tangent. 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:46.440 As you guys expanded fairways, remove trees. What were the 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:49.600 things that you kind of uncovered that even surprised you 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:50.720 about Southern health. 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:54.240 I think the thing that about Southern Hills that I 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:58.240 had no idea right the first time I went. Or 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:00.280 It's one of those courses that you look at on 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:01.960 you know, we all we all geek out when we 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:04.679 look on Google Earth and we go, Okay, lots of trees, 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:06.160 green grass, white bunkers. 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:08.040 You know, doesn't look that great from the air. 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:13.280 I never understood the topography, and I think that the 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:16.160 scale of the site. I think Maxwell did an amazing 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:18.120 job with the routing there. I think it's probably about 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:19.760 as good as you could do on that piece of ground. 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:23.400 Just the variety that he had, how everything flows through it, 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:26.399 you know, starting and stopping up on the hill. It 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:28.880 really I think he maximized the potential of the site. 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:32.200 And by restoring the scale of the fairways and opening 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:36.160 back the vistas and allowing the scale of the topography 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:39.119