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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abuse of power you'd like

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Speaker 1: to share.

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Speaker 2: She had us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 2: gmail dot com. Trust Me, trust Me, I'm like a

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Speaker 2: squat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lived.

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Speaker 4: To you.

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Speaker 1: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 1: don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 1: belief and the abusive power from two narrators who've actually

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Speaker 1: experienced it.

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Speaker 5: I'm low La Blanc.

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Speaker 6: And I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 1: And today for the final portion of our Rethinking Trauma

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Speaker 1: series throughout the month of May, We've enjoyed this so much.

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Speaker 5: Our guest is Lucy Johnstone.

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Speaker 1: She's a consultant clinical psychologist in the UK and one

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Speaker 1: of the authors of the Power Threat Meaning Framework. We're

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Speaker 1: going to discuss this psychological framework she helped develop with

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Speaker 1: the intention of completely reconceiving how we think of mental illness.

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Speaker 1: She'll talk to us about why diagnostic manuals are flawed,

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Speaker 1: their position that labels of mental disorders are inherently problematic,

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Speaker 1: and how power, specifically ideological power factors in.

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Speaker 2: We'll talk about how so called mental illnesses are adaptive,

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Speaker 2: the importance of creating your narrative, and the questions we

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Speaker 2: can ask without the help of a therapist.

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Speaker 1: Plus bonus, none other than my mother, doctor Christine Marie,

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Speaker 1: joins us for the outro Something a little Different Today,

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Speaker 1: discussing her own research on personal narrative, how to construct

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Speaker 1: your own life story, and how our own narratives about

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Speaker 1: ourselves have changed over the years. Ooohs, lots of story

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Speaker 1: stuff today, guys, lots of narrative stuff.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's kind of crucial.

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Speaker 1: So just to give some context for this episode, for

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Speaker 1: this interview. So, the power Threat Meeting framework is very

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Speaker 1: specific framework. They have a very particular approach, and I

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Speaker 1: think there's a lot that's really valuable about it. However,

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Speaker 1: as with all things, take it with the grain of salt.

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Speaker 1: My personal take on this kind of thing is that

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Speaker 1: we just have a lot more research and a lot

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Speaker 1: more to learn about neuroscience, about mental illness, about god forbid,

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Speaker 1: I call it that, but about the things that we

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Speaker 1: experience in our minds.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, is this is just one way of looking at things.

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Speaker 1: And medication can be great, Medication can be so useful.

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Speaker 6: I am on some medication that is so necessary.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, especially in extreme cases. So if this doesn't resonate

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Speaker 1: with you, that's totally okay. We're just trying to offer

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Speaker 1: some different perspectives here.

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Speaker 2: If something feels disempowering instead of empowering, then don't use it.

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Speaker 2: But I think for a lot of people, realizing how

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Speaker 2: much effect what's happened to them has on their life

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Speaker 2: is very valuable.

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Speaker 1: So why not exactly? And we'll talk about this more

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Speaker 1: in the episode. But we're all creating stories about ourselves

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Speaker 1: no matter what, and to be able to take the

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Speaker 1: power of that process back into your hands and really

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Speaker 1: explore that, I think is something that can be really powerful,

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Speaker 1: as we've learned.

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Speaker 5: In throughout this month.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, truly, before we dive into narrative story and all

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Speaker 1: of these things, the hero's journey, whatever the fuck, Megan,

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Speaker 1: I'd like to know what your CULTI is thing this

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Speaker 1: week is sure?

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Speaker 2: I mean who It's been kind of a heavy week,

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Speaker 2: so I'm just gonna go with something a little bit

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Speaker 2: lighter that I've seen in the news. Kurt Cobain his

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Speaker 2: Smells Like Teen Spirit guitar was sold for four point

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Speaker 2: five million.

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Speaker 5: Dollars that's your cult.

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Speaker 6: Yes, that is crazy.

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Speaker 1: That is a lot of money, but it doesn't surprise

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Speaker 1: me in any way. He's an icon, and icons, especially

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Speaker 1: dead icons, their shit sells for millions of dollars.

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Speaker 5: This is just like a thing.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean four point five million.

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Speaker 2: That's an extreme amount of money in a recession for

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Speaker 2: a guitar. But here we are, and yeah, the cult

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Speaker 2: of the bands you love.

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Speaker 5: Man, it's the cult of celebrity.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, all of it.

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Speaker 1: I would buy it for like fifty dollars. Will I

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Speaker 1: sell it to me for fifty dollars because I going

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Speaker 1: to afford that.

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Speaker 6: What about you, Lola? What about what's the cultiest thing

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Speaker 6: that you've noticed this week?

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Speaker 1: You know, I really wish that I could keep it

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Speaker 1: light this week, and I'm having trouble coming up with

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Speaker 1: something light.

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Speaker 2: No, I don't think you should keep it light. Only

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Speaker 2: one of us can keep it light at a time.

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Speaker 5: I can remain the dark one.

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Speaker 1: No. I mean, there was just that shooting yesterday with

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Speaker 1: now I think nineteen children have been killed and two

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Speaker 1: adults in and fucking elementary school and it was another

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Speaker 1: eighteen year old boy.

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Speaker 5: There was just that mass shooting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, fucking two weeks ago or whatever, which is targeting

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Speaker 1: black people by another eighteen year old. It's so hard

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Speaker 1: for me to wrap my head around how as a

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Speaker 1: country we have not mobilized and actually taken action to

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Speaker 1: make sure this kind of shit doesn't happen anymore. To

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Speaker 1: be clear, if anyone's wondering, I am from Michigan. I

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Speaker 1: went hunting with my dad my whole childhood. I inherited

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Speaker 1: a gun. I own two guns. I don't fucking care,

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Speaker 1: like we should be taking action to prevent people from

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Speaker 1: purchasing guns so easily, but in particular AR fifteens. Why

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Speaker 1: is anybody allowed to purchase an air fifteen? That to

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Speaker 1: me is the cult of the NRA, is the cult

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Speaker 1: of gun worship. Like it's not necessary, it's not necessary.

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Speaker 1: You can still have your hunting guns. Don't want to

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Speaker 1: try to take away your fucking hunting guns. You do

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Speaker 1: not need an AR fifteen to hunt your deer.

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Speaker 5: You don't.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And the fact that any politician who claims to

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Speaker 1: give a shit about anyone would let children continue to die.

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Speaker 1: And because they're taking money from this special interest organization

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Speaker 1: who has been also like they have been actively targeting

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Speaker 1: people marketing to them to try to convince them that

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Speaker 1: there's no danger gout, and meanwhile people are dying, Like

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Speaker 1: it just doesn't make sense to me. That is a

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Speaker 1: cult on its own, and you do not It is

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Speaker 1: not one or the other. In order to think that

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Speaker 1: gun control is important, you do not have to think

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Speaker 1: we're gonna ban all guns forever. Like that is a

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Speaker 1: false binary and I'm fucking.

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Speaker 5: Sick of it. That is fucking marketing. That is fear mongering.

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Speaker 2: It's so terrifying and it's so fucked up. Nobody can

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Speaker 2: possibly think that this is normal. I've yet me to

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Speaker 2: a person who's like, yes, this, I agree with this law.

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Speaker 1: People want to blame it on mental illness. It's like, okay, great,

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Speaker 1: so what are you doing to combat mental illness?

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Speaker 4: Then?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting because I did try to frame that

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Speaker 2: kid in the framework yesterday of like what happened to him,

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Speaker 2: and obviously horrifically bullied, grew up in extreme poverty, very shy,

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Speaker 2: a million things that narratively explain a lot of what's

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Speaker 2: going on, but also seems to be a little extra

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Speaker 2: component there. It's a very confusing thing to unwind.

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Speaker 1: It's super interesting, and I don't know a lot about

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Speaker 1: this world, so I'm not going to pretend that I do.

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Speaker 1: But he was a big gamer, was very much in

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Speaker 1: the gaming communities, and I've been seeing a lot lately

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Speaker 1: about how much extremism exists within gaming communities and how

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Speaker 1: much it's.

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Speaker 6: Like, hmm, that's an interesting plan.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, listen, I don't know, I don't know

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Speaker 5: the details.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm not going to speak out of turn here,

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Speaker 1: but I've seen gamers speaking up about how blatant racism is,

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Speaker 1: how blatant the extremism is, just like while people are doing,

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Speaker 1: you know, in these sort of first person shooter games.

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Speaker 1: Not that I don't think that them being a shooter

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Speaker 1: game is inherently a radicalization thing. It's more like just

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Speaker 1: the community, the like hyper masculine thing.

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Speaker 5: I don't know. I don't know, you guys, I'm gonna

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Speaker 5: shut up. I'm gonna shut up.

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Speaker 1: But I do think it's really interesting and worth looking

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Speaker 1: into and probably a future episode in any case. Really

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Speaker 1: fucking sad, really fucking tragic, but we're done being sad.

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Speaker 5: We need something to change. Something needs to fucking change,

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Speaker 5: because like, how many Sandy hooks are we going to

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Speaker 5: have now? Like is it just gonna be every year?

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Speaker 1: Like we're just gonna accept that if you send your

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Speaker 1: kid to elementary school, they're like likely to be shot.

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Speaker 1: Like fucking no, We're gonna do like something has to happen,

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Speaker 1: all right now, but we've covered that.

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Speaker 5: Let's uh, let's talk story, shall we.

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Speaker 6: Let's get in there with Lucy.

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Speaker 5: Welcome Lucy Johnstone to trust me.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you for inviting me.

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Speaker 1: You're a consultant clinical psychologist and you're one of the

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Speaker 1: lead authors of the Power Threat Meaning Framework. You are

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Speaker 1: based in the UK. First of all, what is the

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Speaker 1: Power Threat Meaning Framework?

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Speaker 3: Okay? So the Power Threat Meaning Framework is a document,

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Speaker 3: a very long documented to us, published in twenty eighteen

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Speaker 3: by the British Psychological Society, which is my professional body,

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Speaker 3: And it's an attempt to outline a complete alternative to

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Speaker 3: the diagnostic and medical understanding of mental distress and emotional suffering.

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Speaker 3: So it's a way of saying, if we had a

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Speaker 3: system and a way of thinking that didn't see emotional

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Speaker 3: distress as mental illness with everything that follows them from that,

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Speaker 3: what would it look like. So it's a complicated set

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Speaker 3: of ideas and principles which has aroused a great deal

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Speaker 3: of interest, not just in the UK but around the world,

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Speaker 3: somewhat to our surprise, because it was a five year,

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Speaker 3: very long, hard piece of work to produce. It, a

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Speaker 3: very exhausting project. It's written by psychologists and people have

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Speaker 3: been on the seo CATERC treatment and it's an attempt

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Speaker 3: to use a slightly jargon term to change the paradigm

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Speaker 3: to say we need to understand distress and troubled or

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Speaker 3: troubling behavior in a completely different way.

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Speaker 1: Can you kind of explain what the medical model is

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Speaker 1: when it comes to psychiatric diagnoses and why that is

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Speaker 1: potentially flawed.

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Speaker 3: So in westernized countries, for about the last one hundred

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Speaker 3: and fifty two hundred years, which is actually not very long,

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Speaker 3: we have all taken on the idea that various forms

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Speaker 3: of emotional distress are best understood as illnesses, and we're

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Speaker 3: told all sorts of stuff about chemical imbalances and genetic

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Speaker 3: contributions and so on. And of course if you believe

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Speaker 3: that those forms of suffering are an illness, then you

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Speaker 3: think you need a diagnosis. So we have a huge

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Speaker 3: range of diagnoses which are put together in vast manuals

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Speaker 3: and because we see things as needing diagnoses because they're

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Speaker 3: medical illnesses. And I would like to say, actually, this

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Speaker 3: has never been proven. There's never been in evidence to

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Speaker 3: support this way of thinking. It follows that the main

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Speaker 3: interventions tend to be psychiatric drugs. The main places where

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Speaker 3: we think people ought to be seen to get help

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Speaker 3: of hospitals and clinics. The main professionals we think need

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Speaker 3: to be involved are nurses and doctors, along with others.

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Speaker 3: So it shapes our whole understanding. And actually, what many

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Speaker 3: people don't realize is that even the people who drop

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Speaker 3: the diagnostic models are saying they're not safe or scientifically sound.

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Speaker 3: And if you look worldwide at research, it seems to

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Speaker 3: be pretty much beyond doubt. In my view that our

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Speaker 3: current interventions create rather than pure disability.

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Speaker 2: Is that because it's so generalized instead of individual.

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Speaker 3: It's for a number of reasons. I think partly it's

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Speaker 3: because we're applying a wrong model of understanding. If we

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Speaker 3: are actually telling people there something there's a medical illness,

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Speaker 3: when actually it's in our view nearly always the result

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Speaker 3: of understandable life circumstances, then always by definition, you're not

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Speaker 3: going to look at the real roots of the problem.

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Speaker 3: You're not going to get to groups that you're not

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Speaker 3: going to solve it. But it's also because the ventions

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Speaker 3: that tend to follow, like psychiatric drugs, which I think

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Speaker 3: do have some role, but overused or misused or use

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Speaker 3: in place of a kind of a more holistic understanding,

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Speaker 3: can in the long term be very damaging that they're

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Speaker 3: not good for people. They have short term benefits but

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Speaker 3: many long term harms.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: I used to think of the DSM as as like

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Speaker 1: shining speacon of science, you know, And the more I learn,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, this is just like some guys and

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Speaker 1: like maybe some women in a room making up categories.

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Speaker 4: Essentially, you're absolutely right.

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Speaker 3: Mental illnesses are voted into existence by committees that are

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Speaker 3: made up by your most senior psychiatrists and other clinicians.

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Speaker 3: They are not like other diagnoses, like sort of all

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Speaker 3: the physical illnesses we could mention, which are based on

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Speaker 3: sound research into what goes wrong in our bodies, and

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Speaker 3: we label those kind of syndromes or disease edities at

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Speaker 3: some point. They're essentially based on a group of people saying, well,

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Speaker 3: I've seen a lot of people like this. They're obviously very.

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Speaker 1: Unhappy, right, I mean, it makes me think of depression,

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Speaker 1: and we refer to depression or anxiety disorders as like

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Speaker 1: a chemical imbalance, but we actually don't know what SSRIs

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Speaker 1: are even doing in the brain. So no, and the

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Speaker 1: evidence is very mixed on to what extent they actually work.

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Speaker 1: I take issue with continuing to treat it as though

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Speaker 1: it's a disease of some kind if you're having some

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Speaker 1: kind of mental health crisis.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I agree. I mean it's really important

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Speaker 3: to say that people's suffering is real. These arguments can

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Speaker 3: get quite confused and quite heated. Nobody is saying that

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Speaker 3: people are kind of inventing it or there's nothing the

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Speaker 3: matter with them, what they should pull themselves together. People's

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Speaker 3: suffering is real. What is very questionable is the way

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Speaker 3: we are told we need to understand it. And some

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Speaker 3: frank lies have been told about that. So the idea

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Speaker 3: that depression, for example, is caused by chemical imbalance in

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Speaker 3: the brain has never had any evidence to support it.

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Speaker 3: It's been promoted as a myth by drug companies, among others.

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Speaker 3: Is obviously it's very much in the interest of drug

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Speaker 3: companies to not only say depression is caused by chemical imbalance,

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Speaker 3: but to claim that the drugs rectify it people, of course,

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Speaker 3: because you tend to believe experts believe that, and that's

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Speaker 3: extremely damaging. And there's really, really, really an evidence to support.

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Speaker 1: That particular miss right, And I don't want to negate

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Speaker 1: the experience of anyone who might be listening who has

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Speaker 1: found their medication to be helpful, because of course there

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Speaker 1: are lots of people that it helps.

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Speaker 6: I love them. Prozac are the way, but if.

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Speaker 1: We don't even really understand what's happening or why it's working,

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Speaker 1: that is worth diving more deeply into with real research.

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Speaker 3: It is, I mean, I think it's also worth saying,

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Speaker 3: because this is another complicated and controversial point. There is

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Speaker 3: no doubt that drugs help some people, but they don't

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Speaker 3: help people in the way that people are often told.

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Speaker 3: They are certainly having an effect, but in general those

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Speaker 3: effects so things like you know, generally calming people down,

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Speaker 3: generally make them feeling less overwhelmed, but those are not

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Speaker 3: targeted effects as these process it's not insulin replacing, you know,

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Speaker 3: something that's lacking in your body, and anybody who took

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Speaker 3: these drugs would experience the same general effects perhaps a

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Speaker 3: bit calmer. I wouldn't want to take those benefits away

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Speaker 3: from anyone. But that is really really not the same

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Speaker 3: as treating an.

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Speaker 1: Illness, right, It's not getting at the root cause necessarily.

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Speaker 3: No, it isn't, but I mean getting through the day

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Speaker 3: is important.

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Speaker 5: Of course.

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Speaker 1: Of course I want to talk about it in terms

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Speaker 1: of trauma specifically because this is our Rethinking Trauma series.

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Speaker 1: So can you sort of just explain the basic principle

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Speaker 1: of how power factors in and what are the basic

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Speaker 1: ideas here?

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Speaker 3: Okay, so the path threak meaning framework draws quite heavily

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Speaker 3: or another body of work that's been around for quite

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Speaker 3: a while, the trauma informed approach, which actually started it

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Speaker 3: in America, as I'm sure you know, we have the

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Speaker 3: A studies, the Adverse Childhood Experienced studies carried out in

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Speaker 3: America during the late nineteen nineties, which looked at the

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Speaker 3: number of difficult experiences that people had in their childhoods.

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Speaker 3: That was the initial research, anyway, and the extent which

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Speaker 3: that influenced whether they later had what we call mental

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Speaker 3: health problems, as well as a whole range of other problems,

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Speaker 3: including interesting physical health problems and poor educational outcomes and

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Speaker 3: so on. I think the Traue mendfum model is on

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Speaker 3: its own quite a powerful challenge to the medical model.

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Speaker 3: It shows really beyond doubt and there are masses of

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Speaker 3: research papers now, as I'm sure you'll know that traumas

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Speaker 3: and adversities, particularly in people's early lives and this is

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Speaker 3: common sense, really isn't it, are much more likely to

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Speaker 3: lead to various forms of distress in the long term.

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Speaker 3: So in the Power Threat Meaning framework, we've drawn quite

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Speaker 3: a lot on that really important work. But with the

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Speaker 3: framework itself is kind of bigger than that. It's like

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Speaker 3: saying we need a kind of conceptual arch a meta framework,

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Speaker 3: an overarching set of principles which can include and support

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Speaker 3: trauma inform practice, but inclusion support an awful lot of

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Speaker 3: very good practice which is not based on diagnostic understandings.

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Speaker 3: Now there's quite a lot of examples of that in

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Speaker 3: the UK, I suspect less so in America. But I

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Speaker 3: don't know if you come across things like narrative therapy

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Speaker 3: or a number of other approaches which tend to be

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Speaker 3: seen you know, open dialogue as another example from Finland,

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Speaker 3: you might come across them if you're lucky in certain

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Speaker 3: parts of the UK, but we think approaches like that

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Speaker 3: should actually be the standard, not something you're lucky enough

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Speaker 3: to come across. So the framework is about the basic

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Speaker 3: principles that all alternatives to diagnosis need to start from.

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Speaker 3: And the framework in a nutshell is saying, instead of

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Speaker 3: a diagnosis, we need a narrative, a narrative understanding of

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Speaker 3: the forms of the reasons for people who may experience distress,

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Speaker 3: and I can the narrative is loosely built on some

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Speaker 3: core questions in the framework, which I can run through.

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Speaker 5: A few want yes, tell us the questions yes.

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Speaker 3: These questions on themselves based on a lot of evidence.

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Speaker 3: So there's a slogan you may have come across which is,

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Speaker 3: instead of asking what's wrong with me, ask what's happened

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Speaker 3: to me? That quite nicely sumone's up the shift that

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Speaker 3: we need to make from what illnesses have I got

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Speaker 3: to what's gone on in my life? The framework has

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Speaker 3: kind of expanded that question the instead of what's wrong

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Speaker 3: with me, what's happened in question? So one of the

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Speaker 3: first core framework question is what has happened to you?

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Speaker 3: Or in other words, how is power operating in your

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Speaker 3: life and under that question, the framework summarizes a huge

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Speaker 3: amount of evidence, partly from trauma inform practice, about the

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Speaker 3: impact of power on everybody's lives. So that might be

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Speaker 3: legal power which will work for you or against you,

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Speaker 3: into personal power people who may hurt or abuse, or

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Speaker 3: neglect or tackle, humiliate, or excluder, undermine you, as well

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Speaker 3: as supporting you and helping you. Includes economic and material power.

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Speaker 3: Do you have enough to eat? Do you just have

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Speaker 3: somewhere to decent, decent live? And so on, And importantly,

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Speaker 3: it also includes ideological power, which we've defined as a

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Speaker 3: more subtle form of power, which is like the world views,

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Speaker 3: the assumptions that are transmitted through social media and newspapers

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Speaker 3: and education, and our families and friends and so on,

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Speaker 3: and all of these may lead us to believe that

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Speaker 3: we need to live our lives in certain ways. We

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Speaker 3: need to look in certain ways, we need to buy

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Speaker 3: certain clothes, we need to achieve in certain ways, we

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Speaker 3: need to succeed in certain ways, we need to have

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Speaker 3: certain kinds of lifestyles. Ideological part can be used very

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Speaker 3: much to promote certain agendas of powerful people. You are

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Speaker 3: working with, survivors of cults, aren't you. So, although I

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Speaker 3: know very little about that, it seems to me that

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Speaker 3: people who are invited into cults are subjected to iological

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Speaker 3: ideological part they're so told that certain things are true,

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Speaker 3: certain things not be questioned. So the emphasis on ideological

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Speaker 3: power explains why people can be extremely distressed even if

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Speaker 3: they've let comfortable lives, happy lives, lucky lives. Particularly in

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Speaker 3: the UK, there's a huge stress among our young people,

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Speaker 3: and I think that's because, you know, they are under

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Speaker 3: enormous pressures. Even if they've got a loving family and

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Speaker 3: a good education and enough money to live on, there

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Speaker 3: are huge pressures.

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Speaker 1: So it's not necessarily powerlessness like it would be in

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Speaker 1: a more extreme situation, but it's more just like pressure

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Speaker 1: because of the overarching forces of power expectations.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, it's a kind of more subtle form of power

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Speaker 7: that it's quite hard to unpick because we tend to

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Speaker 7: assume these things are true, and sometimes we're not offered alternatives,

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Speaker 7: and sometimes we're actively discouraged from seeking alternatives.

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Speaker 2: This could mean like being a woman, for example, and just.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely being black in America, yeah.

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Speaker 6: Or being you know, like be be really good and

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Speaker 6: be quiet and.

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Speaker 3: Be absolutely good example, So ideological power, a lot of

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Speaker 3: it is transmitted through gender stereotypes, through racial stereoty, like

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Speaker 3: women are like this, women should do this, women shouldn't

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Speaker 3: do that.

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Speaker 2: So it's a lot of unconscious information that we're not

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Speaker 2: even really looking at sometimes if we just look at

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Speaker 2: the symptoms.

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Speaker 3: Indeed it's conscious and unconscious. Yeah, I mean put some

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Speaker 3: of it's kind of promoted quite brutally, isn't it. You

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Speaker 3: know that we've had yeah history when we said that

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Speaker 3: black people are inferior, and women as intelligence as men,

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Speaker 3: and as society gets a bit more sophisticated than the

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Speaker 3: ways of promoting ideological messages tend to be intt a

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Speaker 3: bit more sophisticated, but.

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Speaker 1: Not much more, you know, correct me if I'm wrong,

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Speaker 1: But my impression is that the UK is a bit

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Speaker 1: more evolved in terms of social and psychological issues.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think like this framework would be really hard for

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Speaker 1: a lot of Americans to digest because there's such a

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Speaker 1: resistance to the idea of critical theory in general here,

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Speaker 1: which is a critique of all forms of power structures.

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Speaker 5: Is it more accepted in the UK?

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Speaker 6: Like weird?

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Speaker 3: It's an interesting point because these ideas are not new

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Speaker 3: in the UK, and they are controversial. They're not the

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Speaker 3: dominant ideas, but you can at least say them and

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Speaker 3: you get quite a backlash. And the place where the

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Speaker 3: Framework has had least recognition so far is America. You know,

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Speaker 3: I've traveled to Australia, I've traveled to New Zealand, I've

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Speaker 3: traveled to Brazil, I've been to Europe with a lot

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Speaker 3: of enthusiastic people wanting to welcome the framework, And in

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Speaker 3: America it feels like, can you say this stuff?

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Speaker 1: Or it's so funny to me that people are so

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Speaker 1: resistant to the idea that there could be underlying power

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Speaker 1: structures in play throughout society. How could that not be true?

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Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense to me that people don't understand that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well it's common sense. You're right. But then when

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Speaker 3: you challenge ideological part particularly, who are you challenging. You're

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Speaker 3: challenging very powerful people, aren't you, who are not going

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Speaker 3: to give up without a fight. In psychiatry, you're challenging

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Speaker 3: powerful professionals, You're challenging drug companies. In societies for all,

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Speaker 3: you're challenging very powerful vested interests, people, privileged people. Because

441
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 3: on the whole ideological parer can work to the advantage

442
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,199
Speaker 3: of people already more powerful and privileged, and to the

443
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 3: disadvantage of people who are less so. And I have

444
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,800
Speaker 3: to point out that America is the most economically unequal

445
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 3: and in some ways unjust society in the whole world.

446
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 3: We have nothing to boast about in the UK, but

447
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,719
Speaker 3: it seems to me that there are huge injustices and

448
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 3: huge amounts of privilege which are very much invested in

449
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 3: keeping in promoting those injustices. And what happens to the

450
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,959
Speaker 3: casualties of that system. Well, it's very convenient at all

451
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 3: sorts of levels to label them as mentally ill, isn't it,

452
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 3: and actually silence them by telling them mentally ill, by

453
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,439
Speaker 3: giving the message this is an individual problem, not a

454
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 3: societal problem, and by drugging them up, you know, if

455
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,399
Speaker 3: you want to put it blunantly. So one of the

456
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 3: main aims of the framework is to put back the

457
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:57,560
Speaker 3: links between personal distress and inequalities and injustice. Because we

458
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 3: would say there's always a link. Part of the effect

459
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 3: and part of the purpose of the diagnostic model is

460
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 3: to disconnect that link so we stop looking at the context.

461
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,200
Speaker 1: Wow, there are people who are like a part of

462
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,239
Speaker 1: a more powerful end of some kind of structure in

463
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 1: one area of their lives and not so much in

464
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 1: other areas. It's not like if you're a white man,

465
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 1: you're automatically powerful forever.

466
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, I.

467
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 3: Mean it's important to say that. So intersectionality is an

468
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 3: important principle, isn't it?

469
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 1: But is the key thing more about subjectively? How have

470
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,119
Speaker 1: you experienced power in your life?

471
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 3: Okay, so the power question is only the first question

472
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 3: constructing a narrative. If you're thinking about constructing your story,

473
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 3: you might start with power. You can actually start anywhere

474
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 3: because these are internected questions, and the next question would

475
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 3: be how did that affect you? Or, in other words,

476
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 3: what kind of threats does this? So let's say I'm

477
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 3: a woman who has very little money, then what threats

478
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 3: do that pose? I can't feed my children, you know,

479
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 3: if I lose my job, I might be destitute, all

480
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 3: those kinds of things. The third question is what sense

481
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,199
Speaker 3: did you make of it? In other words, what is

482
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 3: the meaning of these situations and experiences in your life?

483
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 3: So that's how we get the power threat meaning framework.

484
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 3: So everything the framework is filtered through personal meaning, because

485
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 3: that shapes everything. You know, if we believe, let's say

486
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 3: we were abused as a little child because we were

487
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,919
Speaker 3: bad and not in deserted punished, we're going to be

488
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 3: much worse effective than if we suddenly stepped in and

489
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 3: said it wasn't your fault and protected you. Just to

490
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 3: give you a rather obvious example, you should never happen anyway,

491
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 3: but the meanings we give to it, and the meanings

492
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 3: were encouraged to take on are bound to shape it.

493
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 3: But the framework goes beyond meaning to one to one level.

494
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 3: So most forms of therapy actually look at meaning. So

495
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,199
Speaker 3: let's say you have a woman who's been you know,

496
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 3: let's say raped or abused. I've worked with many such women.

497
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 3: Then a therapist might very helpfully work with that woman

498
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 3: so she's able to think, well, it wasn't my fault.

499
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 3: But actually, we think it's even more effective if you

500
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 3: trace these meanings back. What is it made you think

501
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 3: it was your fault in the first place? Well, they

502
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,120
Speaker 3: are all sort of messages. You know, I'm given example

503
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 3: of women, but there are parallel examples for men about

504
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 3: how women ought to think and dress and behave, and

505
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 3: how it's their fault and all that kind of stuff,

506
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 3: and how women's bodies how available and people would do

507
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 3: what they like with them, all the rest of it. So,

508
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 3: and the final question is what did you have to

509
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 3: do to survive? And in PTMF terms, this is roughly

510
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 3: equivalent to symptoms. So it is our understanding that a

511
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 3: whole range of experiences like hearing voices, like having extreme moods,

512
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 3: things like feeling very desperate and miserable and suicidal, like

513
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 3: feeling very anxious, are actually ways of surviving difficult life circumstances.

514
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 3: And the trauma informed literature tells us that these may

515
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 3: have happened sometime ago, but trauma informed understandings tell us

516
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,479
Speaker 3: that we can carry on living in traum time as

517
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 3: though the things are still happening. Our bodies in our

518
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 3: minds are so alert to threat that we can't move on.

519
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 3: We may need help, but also there may be current

520
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 3: threats of course, who may be living in poverty, we

521
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 3: maybe suffer subject to racial discrimination. But the framework shows

522
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 3: how these are not symptoms of an illness but adaptive

523
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 3: at least originally they're helpful survival responses that you know,

524
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 3: they're the reason why we're still alive and still battling onwards.

525
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,360
Speaker 3: And finally we look at what power resources do you have?

526
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 3: And then you may if you want to put this

527
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 3: together into a kind of story of a few paragraphs,

528
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 3: so you might want you could do it in a

529
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 3: form a sort of poem, or you know, some people

530
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 3: find music and dancing and drama and so unhelpful, and

531
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 3: that narrative can be an alternative to diagnostic story.

532
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 1: I was just going to give, like maybe an example.

533
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,400
Speaker 1: I grew up very religious. My mom and I had

534
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 1: our cultic experience. I witnessed a number of men who

535
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: victimized my mother in some way or victimized people that

536
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 1: I love, and as a result of that, I became

537
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 1: very like stoic and resistant to the idea of showing

538
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 1: emotion in front of people. And over time that made

539
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 1: me just bearing it all you guys. That made me

540
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 1: feel like I have to control how I feel all

541
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: the time. I have to stay in control because that's

542
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 1: what will keep me safe. Because as a kid, I

543
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: felt like if I held it all in and I

544
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 1: kept it all in and I didn't panic and I

545
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 1: didn't cry, then I would be safe. And then I

546
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: could obviously I had no ability to actually do this,

547
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: but in my head as a kid, I was like,

548
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 1: this is how I can keep my mom safe, this

549
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 1: is how I can take care of us. So now

550
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 1: I have to unlearn that because now I have an

551
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 1: OCD well diagnosis. But I do have obsessive thinking, so

552
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: much of it is about control. It's about controlling and

553
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 1: not feeling and not showing how I feel. So that's

554
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: sort of like my personal narrative. It was like it

555
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: helped me survive or like get through my circumstances as

556
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: a child, but now as an adult it's resulted in

557
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:08,880
Speaker 1: this like sort of other symptom.

558
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, that's a really really good example. Thank you

559
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 3: for sharing that one. From a PDMF perspective, I mean,

560
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 3: you've just given a narrative, haven't you. And you witnessed

561
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 3: and possibly were subjected to all sorts of actual traumas,

562
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 3: horrible traumas and abuses, but there was also a lot

563
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 3: of ideological power around religious beliefs. I guess that's the

564
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 3: more subtle form of abuse, and you have to survive,

565
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 3: and you very sensibly as a child, decided well, I'm

566
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 3: going to be that have very good control of my feelings.

567
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 3: And that will protect me and protect people around me.

568
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 3: That survival response not a symptom, I would say, and

569
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 3: not surprisingly, it's been hard to give that up. And

570
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 3: you're calling that OCD, and you can call it exactly

571
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 3: what makes sense to you. But from a framework point

572
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 3: of view, I wouldn't call that a disorder. I would

573
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 3: call that a survival strategy that served you very well

574
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 3: in the past, but maybe isn'tly did in the present.

575
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 3: And I think OCD is very often about control, and

576
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 3: my goodness, you can see why you needed to exert control.

577
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 3: So a PTMF narrative I would trace back and maybe

578
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 3: this happened anyway in therapy. What's this particular need that

579
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 3: you have to whatever it is, carry out rituals about

580
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 3: it's about control. Why did you need to be in control?

581
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 3: Well because of this this when it makes.

582
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 2: Sense, yeah, and then realizing that it makes sense, is

583
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 2: that something that can take away some of the momentum

584
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 2: behind it or well?

585
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 3: I think yes, I think you do a number of things.

586
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 3: It's always nice to feel that you understand why you

587
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 3: need to feel in certain ways, And we would say

588
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 3: it's a much less stigmatizing explanation than I'm mentally ill.

589
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 3: It's less individualizing, it's putting it in a context. It's

590
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 3: not saying there's something wrong with me and I've got

591
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 3: this disorder. It's saying I had to do this. I

592
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 3: did well to do this. Thank goodness, I did, but

593
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 3: perhaps I don't need it anymore. But it also, I

594
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 3: think might lead two different ways forward. So I don't

595
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 3: know about you, Lola, but if there was someone with

596
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 3: a rather similar story, it might lead to not just

597
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 3: tackling what we're called, what you might call the OCD,

598
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 3: but it might lead to revisiting some of the other

599
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 3: things in your childhood, and it might lead to thinking

600
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 3: about other ways in which united need to feel safer

601
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 3: in your life. And it might lead to tracing things

602
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 3: back even further. Like the religious beliefs, I'd be quite

603
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 3: interested in that, the ideology, the pressures, where do those

604
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 3: come from? You know, did the impact on you, particularly

605
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 3: as a girl? As a woman, did have other beliefs

606
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 3: about how women and girls should behave fed into this?

607
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 3: I expect they did because being a very good girl.

608
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 3: It sounds like in a way, whereas a boy in

609
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 3: the same situation might have chosen different strategies to do

610
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 3: with acting out or being angry, rebellious and so on.

611
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 6: Oh, totally.

612
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 2: And is there a big component in generational trauma like

613
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 2: looking at your parents what they have going on?

614
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, intergenerational form is really important. And again frame work

615
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 3: is not at all that we've invented or discovered this stuff.

616
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 3: It draws on a massive amount of existing literature, also

617
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 3: draws on you know, other staff like histories of colonization

618
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 3: and slavery and all these things. They echo down the generations,

619
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 3: don't they They echo down the generations absolutely and each

620
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 3: take on part of them. And again, tracing back through

621
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 3: those threads can be it's not then then there's no problem.

622
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 3: Then it's all cure. But it's like then I can

623
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 3: have a really complete picture, or a much more complete picture,

624
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 3: which frees me from personal blame and guilt and possibly

625
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 3: suggests some other ways forward.

626
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 6: Oh amazing.

627
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: Right, We've been talking quite a bit lately about how

628
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: you do need to contextualize and integrate your trauma, but

629
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: also can't stay there forever. You have to move forward

630
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: and like figure out how to create a life. Definitely

631
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: true for me because I once I like understood the

632
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: sort of trajectory of my life and like had my narrative.

633
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, but I'm still having this problem,

634
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: so I need to do something about it.

635
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 5: I need to have actual tools.

636
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: So once you understand your narrative and your life story,

637
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: how do we then like rebuild our personal power according

638
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: to the framework?

639
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 6: Small question.

640
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 3: The thing about the framework is there's no specific answer.

641
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 3: It's not a manual of do this or do that.

642
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 3: There cannot be answers, and you know, we are sold

643
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 3: answers if we think in terms of mental illness, you've

644
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 3: got schizophrenia, you take this treatment. You know, we don't

645
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 3: believe that at all. Everybody's story is different, although at

646
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 3: the same everybody's story has echoes of much bigger stories

647
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 3: in our culture. As well as putting together one to

648
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 3: one personal narratives and showing how they link to context

649
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 3: all around us, we've attempted to put together some of

650
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 3: the bigger narratives that shape our whole culture, which we've

651
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 3: kind of touched on, you know, the narratives for example,

652
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 3: about what it is to be a woman in a

653
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 3: particular cultural setting or a man. But also we're still

654
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 3: involved in this task. There are general narratives for example,

655
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 3: about how people survive sexual abuse, and I would suspect

656
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 3: there are general narratives about how people survive cults. Every

657
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 3: individual journey be different, but we're attempting to outline some

658
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 3: typical journeys, you know, which might go from you know,

659
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 3: particular ways of surviving within cults. You know, you will

660
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 3: know much more about this than I do, to particular

661
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 3: meanings that are attached to them, particular ways you tried

662
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 3: to cope, particular journeys that you had to take to

663
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 3: kind of get out of that. When we've got some

664
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 3: more of these up on the website, we hope it

665
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 3: might be very helpful for people to say, well, my

666
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 3: particular experience was slightly different, but it's really helpful for

667
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 3: me to read how many people had robbers similar experiences,

668
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 3: which is kind of what you're doing in your podcast.

669
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 3: And one of the ways for the framework suggests is

670
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 3: that depending on who we are, we might want to

671
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 3: go beyond what you call treatment and actually take some

672
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 3: social action. Like you are. You set up your podcast

673
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 3: that's making meaning out of your distress, isn't it. It's

674
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 3: going well beyond psychological treatments. So there may be helpful

675
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 3: and thinking about how do I want to use my suffering?

676
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 3: You know, it's up to you, of course, But how

677
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 3: might I want to use my suffering in a small

678
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 3: way to learn something from it and help other people

679
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 3: learn something from it and to bring changes right.

680
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: Richard Tedesky was our guest last week who talked about

681
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: post traumatic growth and how one of the key components

682
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: he sees in post traumatic growth is finding meaning by

683
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,879
Speaker 1: like helping other people who are experiencing similar things.

684
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 3: Yes, saying the same sort of stuff really important.

685
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: So you ask these questions, what has happened to you?

686
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 1: How did it affect you? What sense did you make

687
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,320
Speaker 1: of it? What did you have to do to survive?

688
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 1: Now you have the story, and then the question is

689
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 1: what are your strengths? Yeah, and what is your story?

690
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: And I love that because it's not just lingering on

691
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,399
Speaker 1: like well, it's because this thing happened. Yeah, yeah, it's

692
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: like and now what, like, how can I build this

693
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: life to be the life that I want?

694
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 3: Yes, that's the idea, and it's perhaps worth saying that.

695
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 3: I mean, there are lots of ways of using that

696
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 3: kind of narrative structure, So this isn't just meant to

697
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 3: be used within services. I mean actually there is a

698
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 3: large area of about a third of the population of

699
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 3: London is covered by pict We call it a trust,

700
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 3: a whole set of mental health services that are using

701
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 3: the howth threat meaning framework narratives structure on all their

702
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 3: inpatient wards. So what would happen then is the staff

703
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 3: would get together and think as much as possible together

704
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 3: with the client if they're in a state to participate

705
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 3: about what is your PTMF narrative instead of what is

706
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 3: your diagnosis? Talk on this tomorrow. And they've got some

707
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 3: amazing results about dramatically reduced levels of restraint and seclusion,

708
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 3: and the staff are feeling much more satisfied in their

709
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 3: jobs and the service users say they've been better helped.

710
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 3: So that's within services. But we've also had some really

711
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 3: good feedback from some peer groups, so groups of people

712
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 3: who use mental health services to get together without professional support,

713
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 3: who've come across a framework and decided, well, let's work

714
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 3: through this together as a group. We don't need a professional.

715
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 3: We'll take question one the first week, we'll think together

716
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 3: about how does that apply in our lives, and we'll

717
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 3: take question two the next week. And they've written some

718
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 3: articles a couple of them written articles for which are

719
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 3: on the website, and so really touching stories about how

720
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 3: this helped me to see for the first time I

721
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 3: didn't have to see myself as mentally ill. So it's

722
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 3: not mainly about professionals giving people another tool, although it

723
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 3: could be about that. It's about people finding their own tools,

724
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 3: perhaps avoiding service altogether. You know, narratives can work at

725
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 3: all sorts of levels. You might have a family narrative,

726
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 3: you might have a narrative for a team, you might

727
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 3: have a narrative for an institution. You might have a

728
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 3: narrative for a whole culture.

729
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 6: Anyway, we sure do.

730
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's so interesting.

731
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 1: It seems like it really has come up with a

732
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 1: lot of people we've talked to. Figuring out your life

733
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: story and like making sense and creating that narrative is

734
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: something that's so important in healing.

735
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 3: It's so important, and it's healing in itself. Right, It's

736
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 3: a diagnosis tick, now gone to get the treatment. It's

737
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 3: like creating the story is itself a healing process and

738
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 3: it's ongoing. It's not I've done my story, now I

739
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 3: need to do this. It's like my story.

740
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 1: Will develop, right and I can shape my story. I

741
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: can take charge of my story.

742
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 3: You can change my story. I can give it a

743
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:11,919
Speaker 3: different ending.

744
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: I'm curious about, Like, there are some really extreme behaviors

745
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 1: or symptoms.

746
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 2: I guess I'm even thinking of like Putin right now,

747
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 2: what if you have all the power in the world,

748
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 2: and like, what is that tell us about Putin? Yeah,

749
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 2: I mean that's just as small side thing because I

750
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,760
Speaker 2: think Wella's question as the bigger what do we frame

751
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 2: that as?

752
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 3: Well? Goodness knows, I'll be fascinated to sit down with

753
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 3: the guy. But he's powerful, But he's also been entirely

754
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 3: captured by certain ideology, hasn't he. That's totally and it

755
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 3: seems to make he's captured by an ideology of what

756
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 3: it is to be a man. All who's kind of

757
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 3: trying to look tough.

758
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,479
Speaker 6: Yeah, like riding a horse shirtless type of stuff. Yeah.

759
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, I don't know what on his childhood?

760
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 3: Who knows?

761
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 6: So aren't narcissists able to do this work?

762
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 3: I'm not sure if I believe in narcissists.

763
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 6: Right, there's such a reframe.

764
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 3: Okay, there are a lot of selfish people around that

765
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 3: I'd agree with that anyone could do this work. If

766
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 3: they want to, it's up to them, and it's optional anyone.

767
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 3: It's not like imposing a diagnosis. We're really imposing the framework, right.

768
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:23,399
Speaker 3: We haven't got the power to impose it. We don't

769
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 3: want to impose it. We'll put it out there. If

770
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,879
Speaker 3: it's worth something, people take it up. If it isn't,

771
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 3: it isn't. That's why we're so pleased to find all

772
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 3: this response. But we do see even a severe, extreme

773
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 3: examples of distress as understandable in narrative terms. So dissociation

774
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 3: from the trauma.

775
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 6: Form literature absolutely explain a lot of that, doesn't it.

776
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 3: You know, I've worked for many years with people on

777
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,720
Speaker 3: the face of it, very unusually in experiences and totally

778
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 3: overwhelmed with distress. But they're not meaningless.

779
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 5: There are instances of some mental symptoms.

780
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 1: That have biological causes or genetic causes.

781
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 5: How do those fit in?

782
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 3: So we're not saying diagnoses are never valid. There are

783
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 3: physical health problems that often have emotional aspects to them

784
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 3: or psychological aspects, so interesting the framework has been used

785
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 3: in some general health settings or these by health psychologists.

786
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 3: So just because someone has a very real disease process

787
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 3: called cancer. Doesn't mean to say that it's a waste

788
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 3: of time to construct a story, because there will also

789
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 3: be a story the social supports you have, you know,

790
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 3: the psychological impact it has on you, the meaning you

791
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 3: want to make of it, and all that kind of stuff.

792
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,399
Speaker 3: But I suspect we would push the limits to what

793
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 3: we see as biological causes of mental so called symptoms

794
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 3: much further than most people would.

795
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,760
Speaker 1: There's like some research that psychopathy, for example.

796
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 6: In psychopathy, so there's no psychopaths.

797
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,359
Speaker 1: I mean, in my experience and with this podcast, there

798
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,399
Speaker 1: are people who there is no help for them ever.

799
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 6: Having a fault leaders, I think is where we get

800
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 6: stuck on.

801
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 3: There some very nasty people in this world. To say

802
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,720
Speaker 3: they have ps corp with the personal doesn't explain anything.

803
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,319
Speaker 3: You know, why are they such brutal horrible people, which

804
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 3: they undoubtedly are, Because how do you know their psychopaths?

805
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 3: Because they're such brutal, horrible people, right right, it's like

806
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 3: calling them evil, Well, how do you know their evil?

807
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 6: I'm totally on board with you.

808
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 2: But it's just so interesting at the end of the

809
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:23,280
Speaker 2: day that some things organize themselves around such interesting traits,

810
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 2: you know, like I like to kill animals when I'm

811
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,240
Speaker 2: a kid is such a weird thing to be shared.

812
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 3: So that is what we would see in the framework

813
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 3: as an aspect of perhaps a broader narrative. I see

814
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 3: like brutal people or people who brutalize others very often

815
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 3: part of their early stories they killed animals, right, But

816
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 3: I mean there would be a reason for that, wouldn't they.

817
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 3: I mean, and very very often people who brutalize others

818
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 3: have been brutalized themselves. That's really good to excuse them

819
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,320
Speaker 3: at all, because people need to take responsibility of their behavior,

820
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 3: of course, but some people's choices are narrowed, you know,

821
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 3: they are given certain role models, certain other news are

822
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 3: blocked off from them. And again, why so many of

823
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 3: these people men? You know, there's a gender or aspect

824
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,320
Speaker 3: of that. There's an ideological power aspect, isn't that?

825
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 6: Yes?

826
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 1: Yes, although sometimes I feel like, honestly getting my diagnosis

827
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: was the most helpful thing because no therapist I had

828
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: talked to had any real tools for me because they

829
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 1: didn't have an understanding of what I was experiencing. So

830
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 1: I do think that there is room for labels in

831
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,280
Speaker 1: just in terms of like getting people to correct treatment,

832
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: but also as a victim. I would say that would

833
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: be one of the times when labels might be important

834
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 1: because of other people versus for yourself. It can be limiting,

835
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 1: but I think in terms of like understanding the chaos

836
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: of why people behave the way that they behave. Like

837
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: I remember I was in a relationship with someone who

838
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 1: we would get in these arguments and we would not

839
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 1: be operating in the same reality, and I would be thinking, like, no,

840
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: I just have to convince him of what I'm experiencing.

841
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 1: I just have to convince him of my reality. But

842
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 1: what he was doing was just trying to gain power

843
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 1: over me. And what's helpful in situations like that is

844
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: understanding that person is a type of personality that I

845
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:10,359
Speaker 1: cannot change, whether it's narcissism or abusive or whatever. Like

846
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: Without those labels, it's really hard to take care of

847
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: ourselves and set our own boundaries sometimes. I think that

848
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,320
Speaker 1: has been important for me, and I know for a

849
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,280
Speaker 1: lot of survivors as well, because the people who victimize

850
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 1: them ultimately it doesn't matter why. It just matters that

851
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 1: they're going to do it, they do it, and they're

852
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: going to keep doing it.

853
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm really really not in the business of telling

854
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 3: people how to understand their lives and their relationships, and

855
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 3: nor is the framework. It's optional, it's voluntary. But my

856
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 3: comment on that would be that it's really really important

857
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 3: to identify those patterns. I agree with that this is

858
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 3: someone who's trying to undermine me, or control me, or

859
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,720
Speaker 3: can't allow me to be equaled have my own views,

860
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 3: but I would see that as a pattern rather than

861
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,320
Speaker 3: it's because he's this kind of person, because actually, I

862
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 3: don't think anyone's born that kind of person, you know

863
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 3: what I mean. I don't think it gets us very

864
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 3: far say oh, it's cause he's that kind of person,

865
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 3: which is an invented label. Identify patterns in relationships and

866
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 3: the ways that certain people run their lives, and we

867
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 3: could call that coercion or abuse or whatever we want.

868
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 2: Right, it really does just make us have to stop

869
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 2: and really collapse everything we think we know. And it's

870
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 2: really hard to start doing it, but I think it's

871
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,399
Speaker 2: worth it because even just talking to you, I can

872
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 2: start to see my own story in different lights. That's

873
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 2: so much more empowering than how I have been looking

874
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 2: at it.

875
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 3: That's good to know, and if we think about people

876
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 3: call psychopaths for example, I mean, you know, I've worked

877
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 3: with victims all my life, so I don't have a

878
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 3: great deal of sympathy with them, to be honest. But

879
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 3: if we simply say they're psychopaths, we're losing a whole

880
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 3: whole lot of work we need to do in understanding

881
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 3: where they came from, don't we right? Because actually we

882
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 3: need people not to go down that path, not to

883
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 3: develop in that way. We need to understand where that

884
00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 3: comes from. Where does putin come from?

885
00:43:59,800 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 7: Right?

886
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 3: Well, they're bad guys, aren't they.

887
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 5: No, that's true.

888
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 1: We had on a couple ones who were both diagnosed psychopaths.

889
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 1: We had a really interesting conversation about how there is

890
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 1: a societal stigma against psychopaths and sociopaths. Yeah, there's just

891
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 1: so much work to be done, and so much research

892
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 1: and growth and learning and understanding that remains to happen

893
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 1: because right now it's the DoSM is not cutting it.

894
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,400
Speaker 1: Notice we're all walking around talking about mental illness, mental illness,

895
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: mental illness, I have depression, I having that I am

896
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: a person who has this, and making that a part

897
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 1: of our identity instead of what we've experienced, what we're experiencing,

898
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 1: and how we can grow and what our strengths are now.

899
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 3: Well, I so much agree with that. And one of

900
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:47,439
Speaker 3: the things the framework says is verbs not nouns. It's

901
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 3: not that I have depression or have anxiety. This is

902
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 3: something that on some level I'm doing to survive.

903
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 4: Oh.

904
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 6: I love that. Their response is that's why they have

905
00:44:58,239 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 6: the pattern.

906
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,720
Speaker 3: And then yes, it's what I'm doing, not what I have.

907
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 5: Or what my brain is doing to protect me.

908
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 3: Well my brain, because.

909
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 5: Obviously no one's like I'm choosing depression.

910
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 3: No, no, but at some level our bodies are responding

911
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 3: adaptively and right right standardly to particular threats.

912
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: That's just the final thing I want to say, is

913
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: that the adaptive part. I think that's something that's come

914
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: up a lot in my journey of like anxiety healing

915
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 1: and no CD healing. This is my brain and my

916
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 1: body trying to protect me.

917
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 3: Absolutely, need to be friends with your body, not beat it.

918
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 5: Down and exactly exactly treat it.

919
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and and depression. Listen, I'm not someone

920
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 1: who's experienced deep depression to the extent that I know

921
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 1: many people have, so I don't want to speak on anything.

922
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 1: I don't know, Meghan, have you are you?

923
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 2: I was going to say, I can speak to the

924
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 2: deep chronic depression that I have been.

925
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 5: I think she's not depressed.

926
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 6: Okay, to do it growing up in a car weird?

927
00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:04,320
Speaker 3: Yes, that's strange. Luck first depression, Megan.

928
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 1: Do you feel like there's a connection in terms of like,

929
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 1: does it feel adaptive for you in the way that

930
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: my anxiety feels adaptive for me?

931
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:11,280
Speaker 6: Yes? Completely.

932
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 2: I mean I just read something the other day that

933
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 2: blew my mind open where it was just like, you have,

934
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 2: you know, the sole part of you. This would be

935
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 2: in terms that Lola doesn't really speak, but you have

936
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 2: a part of you that you feel as most authentically yourself.

937
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 2: And the only way I could keep that part of

938
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 2: myself was to go hide in my room and sleep

939
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 2: and like be away from everybody else who wanted me

940
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 2: to be different. So I adapted depression behaviors that just

941
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 2: kept me isolated from hearing this religious bullshit that didn't

942
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 2: empower me at all.

943
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 3: That's really interesting. It makes a lot of sense from

944
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 3: all sorts of perspectives. It sounds like it's an unfortunate coincidence,

945
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 3: doesn't it I was a cult and then I got depression. Right,

946
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 3: but right, the second is totally understandable. The foots, isn't

947
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:02,959
Speaker 3: it how you expected to feel if you'd be brought

948
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:03,800
Speaker 3: up in a cold.

949
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 2: And what can you do to get away from it?

950
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 2: If being assertive isn't allowed, which it wasn't.

951
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 3: Exactly exactly, it makes perfect, perfect sense, and well done

952
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 3: for doing that because it helped you to survive.

953
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, and now it's like something I would like to change.

954
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 2: So knowing why I did it is so powerful, right

955
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 2: and saying that's just who I am, Like, it's it's not.

956
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 1: I think about addiction too. I mean, my family member

957
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 1: who I love very much and talk to every day,

958
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:35,760
Speaker 1: has experienced addiction his whole life, and we were always

959
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 1: just like, it's just his like what is with him?

960
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 5: It's just his brain.

961
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 1: Now he's been sober for a year, he's done every

962
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: kind of hard drug under the sun, you name it,

963
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: not to blow up his spot.

964
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 5: But now that he's been sober for a year, all

965
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 5: this other stuff is surfacing with drugs. Yeah, he's not

966
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 5: hiding it anymore.

967
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 6: He's not.

968
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 1: And so it's like, oh, like if I just wonder

969
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 1: if he had been given tools and opportunity to face

970
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 1: his demons when he was younger, like, would that have

971
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,879
Speaker 1: contributed to helping him not get so deep in at hole?

972
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:10,280
Speaker 1: I know if people have all kinds of experiences with addiction,

973
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 1: and I don't want to speak for anyone else, but

974
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: I know that's the case from my particular loved one.

975
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 2: That's actually a really interesting Yeah, what about addiction? Is

976
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 2: that something that you frame as power as well?

977
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 3: Well? I think you know, there are reasons people get

978
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 3: to drugs and alcohol, not everybody does, and the reasons

979
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,880
Speaker 3: are very often because it's a way of coping. Is

980
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:30,839
Speaker 3: it a way of surviving, a way of dealing with

981
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 3: unbearable pain? You know, I think there is an aspect

982
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,800
Speaker 3: of drugs that mean that you know, once you've started,

983
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 3: it's difficult to stop, and the withdrawal effects and so on.

984
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 3: But of course, of course drive the main drive, and

985
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 3: there's quite a lot of research on this is about

986
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,720
Speaker 3: not everyone gets addicted with the same exposure to drugs

987
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 3: and alcohol, but people who have an enormous need to

988
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 3: manage overwhelming otional emotional pain do tend to get addicted.

989
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 3: Makes perfect sense, and it's not a you know, there's

990
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 3: a disease model about drug addictions which I've never bought into.

991
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 3: I have to say, it doesn't make any sense at

992
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 3: all to me.

993
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 1: That's another example where I feel like the language is

994
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 1: helpful for people to like understand it for themselves, but

995
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 1: in terms of actually the validity of it, you know, how.

996
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 3: Much further does it take you? But also it's not true. Yeah,

997
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:23,800
Speaker 3: I do have this thing about professionals telling people something

998
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 3: that's not true.

999
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: So basically what we're talking about here is not thinking

1000
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:31,240
Speaker 1: of yourself in terms of a diagnosis or in terms

1001
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 1: of like what's wrong with me? It's what's happened to me?

1002
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:36,799
Speaker 1: And how did I adapt to that? What did I

1003
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 1: do to cope? And how is that affecting me now?

1004
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 1: And also now what can I do? How can I

1005
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 1: continue to construct my life story.

1006
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 3: That's a very good summary, but I would want to

1007
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:50,240
Speaker 3: add that it's optional. If you find diagnostic language helpful

1008
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 3: for you, that's fine. It's not about tearing labels of people,

1009
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 3: but it is about making alterned is available. Because of

1010
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:01,359
Speaker 3: ideological power, partly, alternatives are very often normally available, will

1011
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 3: at the very very least people to be offered a

1012
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:07,399
Speaker 3: choice of understandings, and ours is one of them.

1013
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 1: Love it and I just I want to move to

1014
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 1: the UK sometimes because I'm like, you guys take such

1015
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:16,720
Speaker 1: better care of your people.

1016
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,320
Speaker 5: It seems like there's so much more accounting.

1017
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: Well yeah, but it seems like there's so much more

1018
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:27,239
Speaker 1: just a greater understanding of coercion and abuse there. We

1019
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 1: don't really have a thorough our system really does not

1020
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 1: grasp that.

1021
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 6: Of course we don't. That was a great point.

1022
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 2: Why would they want us to uh to get that

1023
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 2: more clearly?

1024
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and just even in terms of just

1025
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 1: the whole all of the research coming out of there,

1026
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 1: it makes me makes me want to go be taken

1027
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 1: care of by the better somewhat better system.

1028
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 3: Well, plenty wrong in the UK, but as we've said,

1029
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:56,280
Speaker 3: I think there is greater freedom to discuss these controversial ideas,

1030
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 3: which is something right.

1031
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 5: Well, do you have any final thoughts or things you'd

1032
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:00,720
Speaker 5: like to add?

1033
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,279
Speaker 3: Just that, If you look at the links the main

1034
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 3: path threat Meaning framework website, all the resources on there

1035
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:09,359
Speaker 3: are free, the documents are free. It's free knowledge. If

1036
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 3: you can afford a small amount of money, you can

1037
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 3: buy a book which I've also given you the link to,

1038
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 3: which is a more practical guide about how might I

1039
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 3: think about the framework questions in relation to my life

1040
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 3: or perhaps the life of someone I'm living with, working with,

1041
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,800
Speaker 3: or supporting. If you're interested in pursuing it.

1042
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 1: Absolutely and you don't need to be a therapist to

1043
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: ask these questions, you can just start doing it yourself.

1044
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 3: All human skills. Human beings are meeting makers and narrative creators.

1045
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 3: They always have been, they always will be. And you

1046
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 3: can use those talent and abilities yourself just as well

1047
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 3: as and possibly better than some professionals.

1048
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:45,319
Speaker 1: Awesome, Well, thank you so much for joining us today.

1049
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 1: This is a really interesting conversation.

1050
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:48,719
Speaker 3: It's been a pleasure. I feel like we could have

1051
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 3: gone much longer. I listened to a few episodes of

1052
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 3: your podcast. I really liked it.

1053
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 5: Oh, thank you, Thanks so much. I'll have a great evening.

1054
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:57,239
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1055
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 1: Thanks bye. That concludes our conversation with Lucy Johnstone. But

1056
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,359
Speaker 1: now we are doing something a little different and we

1057
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 1: are actually going to talk to my mom again, doctor

1058
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 1: Christine Marie Mom, Hi, welcome back to the show.

1059
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:26,439
Speaker 4: My pleasure. Thank you for having me. I love you both.

1060
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 6: We love you. You're kind of the original word more of

1061
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 6: the fangirls, I'd.

1062
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:33,800
Speaker 1: Say I'm definitely my mom's biggest stand no, no question.

1063
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's pretty amazing, ladies. I love it.

1064
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 5: For those of you who don't know anything about my mom.

1065
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 1: First of all, she is our episode one guest telling

1066
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:44,799
Speaker 1: her story and also our story of what we experienced.

1067
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 5: But also, after all our cultic.

1068
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 1: Experience, my mom went off and got a PhD in

1069
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 1: media psychology. So what we wanted to talk about today,

1070
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 1: just briefly, is once you get to the point where

1071
00:52:57,040 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 1: you feel like you sort of understand your story, how

1072
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 1: do you then go about sharing that story. We've discussed

1073
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 1: in multiple episodes now how your life's narrative is incredibly

1074
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 1: important for healings.

1075
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 5: So what does that actually look like? So Mom, can

1076
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 5: you kind of get us started?

1077
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 4: Okay, First of all, I would say that you need

1078
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 4: to understand that your identity is built on the stories

1079
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 4: that you believe about yourself and the stories that you

1080
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 4: tell your identity. Your sense of the self can change

1081
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 4: and evolve, which is a good thing, especially if you're

1082
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 4: somebody who has come out of a cult experience or

1083
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 4: any kind of abuse or trauma. So what's beautiful is

1084
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:42,239
Speaker 4: that you have the opportunity to create what's called the

1085
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 4: personal myth, your myth, the myth of you. That doesn't

1086
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 4: mean you know some Greek story or something like that.

1087
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:52,879
Speaker 4: It's the story of self that enables somebody to make

1088
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,239
Speaker 4: sense out of the past, know how to live in

1089
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 4: a present, and predict what will happen in the future.

1090
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:00,359
Speaker 4: So if you look at what you have been through,

1091
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 4: like the guests on your Amazing podcasts, they can now

1092
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:08,439
Speaker 4: look at their story as an observer like it talked

1093
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 4: about in one of your other episodes recently, and they

1094
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:15,319
Speaker 4: can now make sense of what happened in a way

1095
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 4: that might predict the future. So the narrative identity, it

1096
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 4: can be shaped and described and understood through seven key elements,

1097
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 4: and those are agency, which of course is your ability

1098
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 4: to make decisions and being in control and having your

1099
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 4: own power. Communion, which is you know, your sense of belongingness,

1100
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:41,799
Speaker 4: or your rejection redemption. Redemption is when something negative happens

1101
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:45,360
Speaker 4: and you put yourself out of it, that's your redemption story.

1102
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 4: If your life is going along perfectly well, and then

1103
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 4: let's say you join a cult or you experienced a trauma,

1104
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:56,919
Speaker 4: that would be considered a contamination event. So after your

1105
00:54:56,960 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 4: contamination event, which in my case, I had several, but

1106
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:06,280
Speaker 4: then it was up to me to create the redemption

1107
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 4: story for myself. Then another key element in telling your

1108
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 4: story or understanding your own story is making sense out

1109
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 4: of what happened, then exploring the whole process. It's called

1110
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:26,319
Speaker 4: exploratory narrative processing, where you're just thinking about it all

1111
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 4: and figuring out why did I do this? What were

1112
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:34,400
Speaker 4: the circumstances around me that caused me to miss this

1113
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 4: red flag? Or why did I keep beating myself up

1114
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:43,960
Speaker 4: so much? Self blame is so debilitating? Why was I

1115
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 4: so insistent on holding on to that? You know, this

1116
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,560
Speaker 4: is a very big theme with women. We love to

1117
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 4: blame ourselves.

1118
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:51,319
Speaker 3: Am I right?

1119
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 5: Yes?

1120
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 1: But I would also add most victims of sexual assaults,

1121
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 1: men or women often have that feeling.

1122
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely absolutely, And then ultimately you want to have

1123
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 4: a coherent, positive resolution to your life. So there's one

1124
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 4: article that I love the title of it. It's creating stories, creating.

1125
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:19,280
Speaker 1: Selves selves, Creating stories creating selves. Oh that's interesting, Okay,

1126
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:19,839
Speaker 1: I love that.

1127
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 4: You see where we're going. So, yeah, as you create

1128
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:26,359
Speaker 4: the stories, I mean, you have stories. Think about your

1129
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 4: own life when you met people, What were the stories

1130
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 4: you would tell them to explain who you are that

1131
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 4: you don't tell anymore.

1132
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,839
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to teen years teen lowlies. Yes,

1133
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:40,440
Speaker 1: I used to tell people that I just really liked

1134
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 1: hanging out with boys more than girls, and I was

1135
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 1: a cool girl and quotes. You know, I really prided

1136
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 1: myself on being unemotional, and as we've touched on in

1137
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 1: this episode, what was actually happening was that I was

1138
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:54,760
Speaker 1: suppressing all kinds of shit that I really actually should

1139
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:57,840
Speaker 1: have been expressing. So now I tell very different story

1140
00:56:58,120 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 1: about my relationship to emotion.

1141
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:00,319
Speaker 5: Men.

1142
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:04,319
Speaker 4: When I joined the mainstream Mormon church, I went on

1143
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:09,560
Speaker 4: a mission, and for nineteen months, every day I was

1144
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 4: telling people my conversion story. I was telling people about

1145
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 4: all the opposition that I had to go through to

1146
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 4: join the Mormon Church, and that really embodied who I

1147
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:26,440
Speaker 4: was that I fought for my testimony. Now today I

1148
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:29,040
Speaker 4: don't have that story anymore. I don't tell that story.

1149
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:31,919
Speaker 4: I mean I might tell it like I am right now.

1150
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:34,120
Speaker 4: That's a story I used to tell, But now I

1151
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:35,400
Speaker 4: talk about different things.

1152
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 6: I talk about.

1153
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:38,160
Speaker 4: You know, where I live and what I do and

1154
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 4: how cool my children are, and you know, so my identity,

1155
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 4: the stories that I tell impact what I think of

1156
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:48,360
Speaker 4: myself and vice versa.

1157
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 2: Is there some sort of formula where you can see, like, oh,

1158
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:54,120
Speaker 2: I'm living out this art type or oh, I'm living

1159
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 2: out this myth. Can you kind of see the pattern

1160
00:57:57,480 --> 00:57:58,520
Speaker 2: and what you're creating.

1161
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:01,880
Speaker 4: That's really interesting because what I think we want to

1162
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 4: do is find the hero in our story. To be

1163
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:11,200
Speaker 4: the hero in our story. There are different archetypes, which

1164
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 4: is very interesting if you do a personal archetype study

1165
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 4: and find out what your archetype is, if you believe

1166
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 4: in that. But where in your life can you say

1167
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:25,840
Speaker 4: I was the protagonist, I was the strong one. If

1168
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 4: you survived a trauma, you are the protagonist of your

1169
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 4: own story because you did it, you overcame it, and

1170
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:38,480
Speaker 4: in some cases, as your recent episode spoke about, that

1171
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 4: trauma will end up becoming a springboard to something even

1172
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:49,560
Speaker 4: richer and deeper and stronger, as in post traumatic growth.

1173
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 6: Which is so cool.

1174
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:53,840
Speaker 2: I'm actually writing a series of books right now called

1175
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 2: quest sluit those kind of words. But I did think

1176
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 2: of that before we interviewed that girl that you guys.

1177
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 6: But I'm like making it in a group of three.

1178
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 2: And one of the memoirs that I want to make

1179
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:10,240
Speaker 2: along with it is called Vomit Version, and it's about

1180
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 2: me going to treatment to get help for being bollymic.

1181
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 2: And you know, Vomit Version is a rough draft, but

1182
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:19,120
Speaker 2: that's what came to mind when you said that is

1183
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 2: my story of like losing weight in high school. Because

1184
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:25,920
Speaker 2: I lost weight and I was so praised for it, like,

1185
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 2: good job, you did it. Meanwhile, I'm so sick. I

1186
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:33,720
Speaker 2: don't know how I survived, right, And you know, that

1187
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 2: was my like hero story. I did it, I lost weight,

1188
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:39,520
Speaker 2: I'm doing all of these things, but meanwhile it was

1189
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:41,439
Speaker 2: like so sick and not good.

1190
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 6: So anyway, that's what came to mind for me.

1191
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 5: That's a really good one.

1192
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:48,600
Speaker 6: Oh thanks, I'm so excited, Christine.

1193
00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:51,080
Speaker 2: I didn't realize that this work you were doing is

1194
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:54,240
Speaker 2: probably you're the person I should be talking to all

1195
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:56,240
Speaker 2: the time about queslat so cool.

1196
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 4: Oh everyone should be talking to me all the time.

1197
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:00,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's true, that's true.

1198
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:01,400
Speaker 3: I agree.

1199
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 4: I'm not a therapist, but my phone is a crisis line.

1200
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:08,720
Speaker 1: If anyone has a test, can a test not just

1201
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:10,800
Speaker 1: for me, but for everyone. Wait, can I just can

1202
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:13,640
Speaker 1: I just add in? So, like my skeptical brain, when

1203
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 1: we talk about narrative and coming up with your life narrative,

1204
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:19,960
Speaker 1: there's a part of me that goes, that's not reality,

1205
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:22,160
Speaker 1: that's just like altering our perception.

1206
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 5: I want to live in reality.

1207
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:26,520
Speaker 1: I want to be dealing in you know, what's actually

1208
01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:29,160
Speaker 1: going on, and not just like creating stories about myself

1209
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:33,360
Speaker 1: that may or may not be reflective of real life.

1210
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 1: And of course, like I then answer that to myself

1211
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:39,640
Speaker 1: by saying, we are always creating stories, whether we are

1212
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:46,280
Speaker 1: conscious of it or there's no reality, like every every

1213
01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 1: single thing I mean, And it just makes me think

1214
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:50,919
Speaker 1: again of like those idw guys that you know, these

1215
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 1: like logic bros. Or whatever as I call them, who

1216
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:56,800
Speaker 1: would insist probably that they're not constructing any narrative because

1217
01:00:56,800 --> 01:01:00,200
Speaker 1: they're just living in stark reality. Man, They're just but

1218
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:03,240
Speaker 1: even that is a story that they're telling about their

1219
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:04,680
Speaker 1: inherent logic.

1220
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 2: Like rational, they inevitably go do ayahuasca, they'll have a

1221
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:11,520
Speaker 2: completely different one.

1222
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 4: Well, your narrative identity is your internalized and evolving life story.

1223
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:24,000
Speaker 4: There is no set in stone life story It's always interpreted,

1224
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 4: and when you have new experiences, such as a traumatic experience,

1225
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 4: you might reinterpret the things from your past. Maybe that

1226
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 4: thing that used to be so important to you isn't

1227
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 4: as important anymore. But I do want to say, even

1228
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:44,160
Speaker 4: if you're a skeptical thinker, there are mental health benefits

1229
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:49,480
Speaker 4: to seeking your own personal heroism. I just saw this

1230
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 4: article today. It's so this is fresh off the press,

1231
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:56,480
Speaker 4: twenty twenty two. Let me read you the abstract. Okay,

1232
01:01:56,640 --> 01:02:01,439
Speaker 4: Heroism confers obvious benefits to the recipi of the heroic act,

1233
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:06,920
Speaker 4: and current research also demonstrates benefits to the heroic actor

1234
01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 4: and to society as a whole. Heroic stories and mythology

1235
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 4: offer meeting purpose and coherence to readers and listeners. The

1236
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:19,960
Speaker 4: mere act of thinking about heroes endows people with positive

1237
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:24,360
Speaker 4: emotions and a sense of social connectedness. And it goes on.

1238
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:28,280
Speaker 4: But the bottom line is heroism foster's a readiness to

1239
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:33,800
Speaker 4: become happy, secure, wise, and growth oriented. So so what

1240
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:37,840
Speaker 4: if you are your own hero You went back in

1241
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:41,480
Speaker 4: time and save yourself. I mean, just like a thought experiment,

1242
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 4: you imagined yourself saving yourself, or when you were little, like.

1243
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 1: In the MDR, which is literally like a big part

1244
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:50,960
Speaker 1: of it sometimes.

1245
01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 4: Yeah. Right, so it's not like this isn't real, No,

1246
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,120
Speaker 4: it's what meaning you give to it. We need to

1247
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:03,640
Speaker 4: reframe our negation scative self stories into something that makes sense,

1248
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 4: something that is positive.

1249
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I love the contamination. I don't love the contaminations,

1250
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:13,680
Speaker 1: but I think you call it a contamination sequence. Yes,

1251
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:16,520
Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense to me because we all

1252
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:19,480
Speaker 1: are operating in our daily lives as though we're the

1253
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:21,320
Speaker 1: hero of our stories, because we're living in a first

1254
01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:25,640
Speaker 1: person consciousness body. Obviously, I always say that, like everybody

1255
01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:27,480
Speaker 1: believes that they're the good guy, no matter how much

1256
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 1: they are definitely not the good guy. So if something

1257
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:34,520
Speaker 1: happens to you that disrupts your ability to disert a

1258
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:38,560
Speaker 1: good person from a bad person, or your own imperviousness

1259
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:42,280
Speaker 1: to sexual assault, this is a contamination of this idea

1260
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:45,840
Speaker 1: that you're a hero. Is that something that if we

1261
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:49,800
Speaker 1: don't consider how the story can continue? Can that be

1262
01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:53,840
Speaker 1: something that's exceptionally disruptive? Whereas we could experience a trauma

1263
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:56,080
Speaker 1: and not give it that meaning, or when it has

1264
01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:57,520
Speaker 1: that meaning, could be so much worse.

1265
01:03:57,640 --> 01:03:59,760
Speaker 4: Well, I think I know where you're going with it.

1266
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:04,000
Speaker 4: So let's suppose that your life is going along quite well.

1267
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:07,880
Speaker 4: You know, you are making achievements, setting goals, reaching goals.

1268
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:09,480
Speaker 6: Wow, this sounds awesome.

1269
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:16,320
Speaker 4: That would be you megan changing lives. Then I would

1270
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:19,080
Speaker 4: add things are going along just fine. You think of

1271
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:27,040
Speaker 4: yourself a certain way, something unexpected, undeserved, negative happens, maybe

1272
01:04:27,240 --> 01:04:30,480
Speaker 4: something that you think is deserved and it's still negative

1273
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:35,439
Speaker 4: and it happens. Well, now you do have to rethink

1274
01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:39,680
Speaker 4: who you are so often because it doesn't make sense.

1275
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:42,360
Speaker 4: And that's one of the things that can make trauma

1276
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:47,520
Speaker 4: so amplified when what happened to you doesn't make sense

1277
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:51,320
Speaker 4: with your sense of self. I deal a lot with

1278
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:56,680
Speaker 4: people who've experienced public shaming and being humiliated in the media,

1279
01:04:56,760 --> 01:05:00,840
Speaker 4: because that's what my research emphasis is. In these kinds

1280
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:05,920
Speaker 4: of stories, somebody could have been totally misrepresented. You know,

1281
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:08,240
Speaker 4: maybe there was an edit in a reality show that

1282
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:10,760
Speaker 4: made them into a villain when they really weren't. Things

1283
01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:14,320
Speaker 4: that didn't feel deserved or didn't feel just, and it

1284
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:20,120
Speaker 4: can completely obliterate their positive sense of self as they've

1285
01:05:20,160 --> 01:05:24,960
Speaker 4: had it until now. And this is such a traumatic experience,

1286
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:29,280
Speaker 4: So what can they do. How can they rebuild their narrative?

1287
01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:34,080
Speaker 4: We may have forty thousand people in social media telling

1288
01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:36,440
Speaker 4: them there's this awful person.

1289
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 1: Right, And I just want to add also something that

1290
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:42,040
Speaker 1: would probably be really common for cult survivors. We think

1291
01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:44,760
Speaker 1: we're smarter than that. We think we are not susceptible,

1292
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:47,960
Speaker 1: we think we're stronger than that. So coming out of

1293
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:51,880
Speaker 1: an abusive situation or cultic situation, I could see how

1294
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:54,640
Speaker 1: much that would be contamidating and was I think for

1295
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:58,080
Speaker 1: many of us, because you don't want to believe that

1296
01:05:58,120 --> 01:05:59,920
Speaker 1: it could happen to you. So if it does have

1297
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 1: happened to you, what does that mean about you? What

1298
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:03,320
Speaker 1: does that mean about who you are?

1299
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:03,680
Speaker 3: Right?

1300
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:07,040
Speaker 4: Especially when you previously believed that people who joined.

1301
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:09,720
Speaker 5: Cults were dumb or something, yeah.

1302
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:12,400
Speaker 4: Weak minded or didn't you know or were these vulnerable

1303
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:14,120
Speaker 4: people and you thought it would never happen to you,

1304
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:17,720
Speaker 4: Because we do have this superiority thing where we say

1305
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:20,480
Speaker 4: I would never do that, that would never happen to me,

1306
01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:22,280
Speaker 4: that person is so different.

1307
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:22,880
Speaker 5: From me totally.

1308
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:25,080
Speaker 4: Then we let our guard down and then it happens

1309
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:26,640
Speaker 4: to us, and then that's even worse.

1310
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:30,360
Speaker 1: So how then if we are in a place where

1311
01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:34,440
Speaker 1: our personal narrative is damaged, Like, how do we then rebuild?

1312
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:35,680
Speaker 5: What are the tools?

1313
01:06:35,920 --> 01:06:39,680
Speaker 4: Well, think about what you did to survive. You have

1314
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:44,439
Speaker 4: tools in you, And in essence, what I can say

1315
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:48,520
Speaker 4: is basically a summary of your last three podcasts. They

1316
01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:51,560
Speaker 4: gave you tools. There were tools in there. Like to

1317
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:55,120
Speaker 4: know that somehow you overcame this. Well, hold on to that,

1318
01:06:55,480 --> 01:06:57,000
Speaker 4: hold on to what.

1319
01:06:56,880 --> 01:06:57,439
Speaker 3: You do right.

1320
01:06:57,560 --> 01:07:01,120
Speaker 4: Surround yourself with people who believe in you, and let

1321
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:05,840
Speaker 4: the toxic relationships go. Realize that you don't have to

1322
01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:10,760
Speaker 4: buy into some public story about you. You don't have

1323
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:15,960
Speaker 4: to believe anything that is humiliating. The reason we are

1324
01:07:16,040 --> 01:07:20,880
Speaker 4: so hurt by humiliating events is because we feel they're

1325
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:25,120
Speaker 4: undeserved and it's like overkill, or it's false, or it's

1326
01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:29,400
Speaker 4: misrepresenting us. And the theme of humiliation is often used

1327
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:33,640
Speaker 4: in cultic situations where they try to break you down

1328
01:07:33,640 --> 01:07:36,880
Speaker 4: and make you feel unworthy and impure. And then when

1329
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:39,160
Speaker 4: you come out and you finally find the courage to

1330
01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:42,520
Speaker 4: tell your story, that can be very healing, but you

1331
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:45,120
Speaker 4: have to when you do tell your story, you have

1332
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:48,360
Speaker 4: to be sure that you're emotionally ready for it and

1333
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:52,800
Speaker 4: that you tell your story publicly to people who are

1334
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:57,560
Speaker 4: sensitive like you two. I imagine that the people who

1335
01:07:57,600 --> 01:08:01,240
Speaker 4: have shared their story on this podcast have felt as

1336
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:04,880
Speaker 4: if you treated them with dignity and you understood where

1337
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:07,680
Speaker 4: they were coming from. Because you, guys, don't go into

1338
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:10,960
Speaker 4: the victim blaming and the shaming. That's the opposite of

1339
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:13,680
Speaker 4: what you stand for. Those are the kinds of people

1340
01:08:13,760 --> 01:08:16,560
Speaker 4: you want to share your story with, whether it's privately

1341
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:19,840
Speaker 4: or whether it's with a producer that you've checked out.

1342
01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:24,840
Speaker 4: The tools to rebuild your story also depends on giving

1343
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:29,599
Speaker 4: yourself a new body of evidence that you are who

1344
01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:33,479
Speaker 4: you intend to be. So build that body of evidence

1345
01:08:33,560 --> 01:08:37,280
Speaker 4: to convince yourself. Whether that means going back to school,

1346
01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:40,840
Speaker 4: that's what I did because I thought I was just so,

1347
01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:45,120
Speaker 4: I mean the world's biggest idiot, really seriously.

1348
01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:48,200
Speaker 2: And that makes me want to cry. Wow, And so

1349
01:08:48,479 --> 01:08:50,160
Speaker 2: you just proved yourself wrong.

1350
01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:53,120
Speaker 4: Yeah. I went back to school. First I got an

1351
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:56,600
Speaker 4: MBA and then I went and got another master's and

1352
01:08:56,800 --> 01:09:00,240
Speaker 4: PhD and psychology. And I had to do it for me.

1353
01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:03,479
Speaker 4: I have a lot of debt too. Sorry, it's what

1354
01:09:03,600 --> 01:09:06,120
Speaker 4: you know. I paid a price, but it cost me.

1355
01:09:06,080 --> 01:09:06,759
Speaker 3: A lot of money.

1356
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:10,120
Speaker 4: To prove to myself that there was really nothing wrong

1357
01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:13,240
Speaker 4: with my brain. I just had to survive this and

1358
01:09:13,360 --> 01:09:16,200
Speaker 4: get my own personal post traumatic growth out of it,

1359
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:19,720
Speaker 4: develop my own personal myth, which is I am the

1360
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:22,880
Speaker 4: comeback kid. Yeah, you know I can do it. And

1361
01:09:23,320 --> 01:09:26,880
Speaker 4: now I give more meaning to my past by saying

1362
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:31,160
Speaker 4: I am so glad that I went through all of it.

1363
01:09:32,080 --> 01:09:35,000
Speaker 4: I wouldn't change any of it because now I get

1364
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 4: to help so many people in such a unique niche

1365
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:43,800
Speaker 4: with where not that many people understand. So whether you're

1366
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:46,120
Speaker 4: coming out of the cult or coming out of domestic

1367
01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:50,680
Speaker 4: violence or a sexual assault or a public shaming, the

1368
01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 4: recovery process it's similar. You know, you go through this

1369
01:09:54,320 --> 01:09:59,519
Speaker 4: grieving and this unfairness, but search deep, excavate your soul

1370
01:10:00,160 --> 01:10:04,320
Speaker 4: and find those pieces of gold because they're there, all

1371
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:07,280
Speaker 4: the bad things that you survived. Well, what I say

1372
01:10:07,479 --> 01:10:10,320
Speaker 4: is all of the negative things that I thought were

1373
01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:14,519
Speaker 4: going to kill me are now my gold, because those

1374
01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:18,720
Speaker 4: are what I use to help people who have so

1375
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:21,960
Speaker 4: few people who can understand such a unique thing that

1376
01:10:21,960 --> 01:10:22,759
Speaker 4: they've gone through.

1377
01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:27,719
Speaker 2: Have you read Your Life? A story by Christine Rayner?

1378
01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:31,320
Speaker 2: Always on my side table anyway, if anybody wants to

1379
01:10:31,400 --> 01:10:33,599
Speaker 2: learn more ways to do it. This is really helpful

1380
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:37,480
Speaker 2: and I'm sure we could read your dissertation if that's public.

1381
01:10:37,320 --> 01:10:38,480
Speaker 3: Do read my dissertation.

1382
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 4: I recommend it.

1383
01:10:40,040 --> 01:10:41,439
Speaker 5: Where do we find it?

1384
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:42,960
Speaker 6: How do we use such a.

1385
01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:45,320
Speaker 4: I shall send a link to Lola to share.

1386
01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:47,679
Speaker 6: Wonderful and you know, I would also.

1387
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:49,839
Speaker 4: Like to share some links if somebody is really interested

1388
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:53,400
Speaker 4: in diving into the concept of the connection between your

1389
01:10:53,439 --> 01:10:57,879
Speaker 4: story and your life. I have a whole foutfolder of research.

1390
01:10:58,439 --> 01:11:02,000
Speaker 4: You know, there's some great people like Dan mccadams, McLean,

1391
01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:06,400
Speaker 4: different scholars that I want to shout out to because

1392
01:11:06,680 --> 01:11:10,120
Speaker 4: this is really exciting. The good news is you get

1393
01:11:10,160 --> 01:11:13,360
Speaker 4: to write the happy ending. You get to write the

1394
01:11:13,400 --> 01:11:16,400
Speaker 4: next chapter of your life. Bill down those horrible things

1395
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:19,479
Speaker 4: and write your happy ending just the way you've always dreamed.

1396
01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:23,200
Speaker 1: And I love the idea of doing it through action

1397
01:11:23,479 --> 01:11:26,120
Speaker 1: that proves to yourself that you aren't what part of

1398
01:11:26,160 --> 01:11:28,760
Speaker 1: you thinks you are. And even even a lot of

1399
01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:31,280
Speaker 1: my own mental health journey in the past year has

1400
01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:33,880
Speaker 1: been so much about like it feels like you can't

1401
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:35,439
Speaker 1: handle this, but you're going to put yourself in the

1402
01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:38,080
Speaker 1: situation anyway and prove to yourself that you can.

1403
01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:41,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, well I'm pretty sure you can handle anything.

1404
01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:47,200
Speaker 1: Oh my god, thank you magaan trust in Wella's ability.

1405
01:11:47,320 --> 01:11:47,760
Speaker 6: Thank you.

1406
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:50,680
Speaker 2: I really quickly want to add something, Christine, that you

1407
01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:53,559
Speaker 2: might find interesting. Last night I was talking to a

1408
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:57,719
Speaker 2: friend and she just kept saying like something about Cinderella, Cinderella,

1409
01:11:57,800 --> 01:11:59,679
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh shit, you might be living

1410
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:02,679
Speaker 2: out the Cinderella myth. And then as I was laying

1411
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:06,719
Speaker 2: there going to sleep, I was like, holy shit, I've

1412
01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:11,760
Speaker 2: been living out the Jesus myth where I was so

1413
01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:16,760
Speaker 2: obsessed with being like Jesus unconsciously that like people can

1414
01:12:16,880 --> 01:12:21,519
Speaker 2: step on me, I'll never mean oh, do whatever you want,

1415
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:25,120
Speaker 2: blah blah blah, and like uhh no more.

1416
01:12:25,240 --> 01:12:28,400
Speaker 6: So that was a realization I had last night. Very funny. Oh,

1417
01:12:28,640 --> 01:12:30,599
Speaker 6: talk to you about it today, Christine.

1418
01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:33,479
Speaker 1: The Jesus myth, the story of when Jesus learned how

1419
01:12:33,520 --> 01:12:34,640
Speaker 1: to draw boundaries.

1420
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:42,120
Speaker 6: This is Jesus's next chapter. He's like, no, Megan, You're

1421
01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:43,600
Speaker 6: not no.

1422
01:12:43,080 --> 01:12:45,280
Speaker 5: No dependent, no more by Jesus.

1423
01:12:46,400 --> 01:12:49,799
Speaker 2: But it is very fun to look at what story,

1424
01:12:50,439 --> 01:12:54,360
Speaker 2: maybe not even in a positive way, you are living out.

1425
01:12:54,479 --> 01:12:56,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you haven't been the best hero. You

1426
01:12:56,760 --> 01:12:58,040
Speaker 1: know what, There's always time.

1427
01:12:58,160 --> 01:13:01,600
Speaker 4: Yes, that's your happy ending. I mean, we all have

1428
01:13:01,680 --> 01:13:03,519
Speaker 4: done horrible things, We're all good and bad.

1429
01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:05,160
Speaker 5: We love a redemption arc, you know.

1430
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:09,559
Speaker 4: But the worst your story is, the more interesting. Your

1431
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:10,680
Speaker 4: redemption story is.

1432
01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:12,160
Speaker 6: Totally I love it.

1433
01:13:12,640 --> 01:13:15,439
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Christine, Thank you guys so much

1434
01:13:15,479 --> 01:13:19,000
Speaker 2: for another week spent with us. Remember to follow your gut,

1435
01:13:19,080 --> 01:13:23,360
Speaker 2: watch out for red blacks, and never ever trust me.

1436
01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:24,840
Speaker 6: Bye.