WEBVTT - The Hunt For Zombie Coins

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<v Speaker 1>How change. I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto

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<v Speaker 1>for Bloomberg News, and this is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg I Heart podcast. It's Wednesday, July. If you want

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<v Speaker 1>an example of the intense optimism of a certain kind

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<v Speaker 1>of crypto investor, here's one. Some folks are still buying

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<v Speaker 1>the token known as Luna Classic, which has flatline towards zero,

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<v Speaker 1>in the aftermath of the collapse of the terra USD

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<v Speaker 1>stable coin. Why are people so willing to buy up

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<v Speaker 1>zombie coins? I asked this question to Bloomberg Senior reports

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<v Speaker 1>to Mike Reagan and Bloomberg Report to Mr Lena a

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<v Speaker 1>gulf of Polo to discuss the motivations of these risk takas. Mike,

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<v Speaker 1>Mr Lena, you're back. I got to talk to you again.

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<v Speaker 1>Can't get rid of us for having us um such

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<v Speaker 1>a pleasure. However, I do worry because when you're here,

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<v Speaker 1>it means that chaotic things are happening that that we

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<v Speaker 1>need to talk about. So today's chaotic thing or continuation

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<v Speaker 1>really is what should we call them? Should we call

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<v Speaker 1>them zombie coins? Should we call them revenance? Mike tell

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<v Speaker 1>Us about the quest for value coming to get you, Barbara.

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<v Speaker 1>What's happening with zombie coins? Well, my favorite is Luna Classic.

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<v Speaker 1>As listeners probably have heard by now, the whole terraform

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<v Speaker 1>blockchain imploded in the spring. Luna, the sort of flagship

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<v Speaker 1>toking on that block chain, was trading at about hundred

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen dollars per token in April, will say, weeks ago. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>as you know, Stacy, I love the abuse of the

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<v Speaker 1>decimal system in crypto. At its low, it was trading

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<v Speaker 1>for zero decimal six zeros nine nine six seven. That's

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<v Speaker 1>it's very low. So it's up nine two percent from

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<v Speaker 1>it's low just last month. And at that price, one

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<v Speaker 1>dollar bought you just over one million tokens of Lunar Classic.

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<v Speaker 1>But to me, I'm fascinating with these uh super low

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<v Speaker 1>priced coins um because like I said, I thought low

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<v Speaker 1>you could buy one million of these tokens for that price,

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<v Speaker 1>and to me, I think that's no coincidence. I think

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<v Speaker 1>when someone realized I can, all right, maybe this thing

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<v Speaker 1>is worthless, but if I can buy a million of

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<v Speaker 1>them for one dollar, I'm in. I mean, who doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>want to be a paper millionaire or a non fiat millionaire.

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<v Speaker 1>What kind of millionaire would that be? To millionaire? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>an imaginary millionaire, I guess a lunatic millionaire. But but

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<v Speaker 1>someone else is buying them. And you know, so this

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<v Speaker 1>is a token basically left for dead, but yet it

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<v Speaker 1>lives on in this zombie life, as you pointed out,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, it's trading hundreds of millions of dollars

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<v Speaker 1>in volume a day. It stalls a market cap of

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<v Speaker 1>about half a billion dollars. So it you know, it's

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<v Speaker 1>like the old Monty Python movie. You know, I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>dead yet they where they say, bring out you're dead.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not the other the other Monty Python friends. So

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know what it says about investors psychology other

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<v Speaker 1>than um people will jump in and buy these ridiculously

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<v Speaker 1>low price coins. And we saw it with Shiba, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>we saw it with doge coin. Um. When they get

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<v Speaker 1>that low, there's a certain element of traders that are like,

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<v Speaker 1>what the heck, I'll you know, here's my lottery ticket

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<v Speaker 1>budget for for the week. I'm gonna buy some some

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<v Speaker 1>Luna Classic. And then the pump and chill Twitter campaign

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<v Speaker 1>just goes berserk, and you'll if you search for l

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<v Speaker 1>u n C dollar sign lu n C. You'll see

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<v Speaker 1>what I mean on Twitter, just NonStop promotion of this thing. Obviously,

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<v Speaker 1>people that are trying to get it up to to

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<v Speaker 1>break a zero, to to to lose another one of

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<v Speaker 1>those zeros between the decimal point and the actual prices,

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<v Speaker 1>break a zero real phrase with its yeah, it's someone

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<v Speaker 1>invented it, I think recently to deal with these things,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's broken to zeros, which is a pretty big deal.

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<v Speaker 1>Congratulations to the Lunatics. Coming up. Elon Musk's appearance on

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<v Speaker 1>Saturday Night Live this week and didn't take a dose

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<v Speaker 1>coin to the moon. In fact, the fifth most valuable

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<v Speaker 1>cryptocurrency retreated after his comments on Weekend Update and that

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<v Speaker 1>word hustle. You've written about a different set of zeros,

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<v Speaker 1>people who were chasing thousand percent returns on things. Tell

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<v Speaker 1>us more about that corner of the markets. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>this is really fascinating just to hear sort of Michael

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<v Speaker 1>describ what's been going on with Luna, and I think

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<v Speaker 1>before we get into what you just describedent yield return

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<v Speaker 1>on some of these coins, I think we just need

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<v Speaker 1>to back up and understand sort of like how this

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<v Speaker 1>entire ecosystem came to prominence last year and Michael mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>she but you know indoorge coin, which really I think

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<v Speaker 1>are the two coins that got this entire ecosystem started. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>because those coins were you know, worth essentially nothing, and

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<v Speaker 1>then um managed to get like a good following and

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<v Speaker 1>a good hype around them to get their prices higher.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that sort of prompted the creation of

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<v Speaker 1>all of these other you can call them zombie coins

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<v Speaker 1>um ship coins another way that people a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>times will call them in the DeFi space. And those

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<v Speaker 1>coins could be created by anyone who could copy the

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<v Speaker 1>same white paper of another you know coin that ran

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<v Speaker 1>the same way, get people to buy into it and

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<v Speaker 1>sort of push the price up. And last year we

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<v Speaker 1>talked to so many investors who talked about the potential

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<v Speaker 1>and the promise of this coin too. You know, if

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<v Speaker 1>you bought in, say a million of them at zero

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<v Speaker 1>point zero zero zero zero two dollars, if they were

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<v Speaker 1>to you know, one in a million become the next

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<v Speaker 1>big coin you could make a lot of money on.

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<v Speaker 1>You would have a million dollars at least. And I

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<v Speaker 1>think the appeal was you didn't really need to put

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<v Speaker 1>that much money into it because it doesn't cost that

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<v Speaker 1>much and so if you're losing a hundred dollars, that's

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<v Speaker 1>a loss. I think a lot of these investors said,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I'm happy to sort of take um and

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<v Speaker 1>so that created an entire ecosystem of a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>other things happening. And going back to the thousand percent

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<v Speaker 1>returns that we've written about, is, you know, these these

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<v Speaker 1>coins needed to give a reason to investors to stay

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<v Speaker 1>in and not just buy in and then dump. So

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of times what they would do is they

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<v Speaker 1>would offer you know, a percentage return to any of

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<v Speaker 1>the coin owners if those coin owners were willing to

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<v Speaker 1>lend out their their coin for other several activities in

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<v Speaker 1>the DeFi space, and they would promise returns of one

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<v Speaker 1>to two to three percent per day. That added up

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<v Speaker 1>to be you know, numbers like percent annually. And so

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<v Speaker 1>that was a way to incentivize coin um investors to

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<v Speaker 1>stay into these projects long term because a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>these people didn't want these coins to be a one off,

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<v Speaker 1>but the market was so saturated um and that was

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<v Speaker 1>just a way for them to jump in. I can't

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<v Speaker 1>I I want to ask you a question about what

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<v Speaker 1>you said, though, how long was long term? Long term

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<v Speaker 1>in crypto lingo is like, you know, a year maximum.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, you know, I think coins like doge coin

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<v Speaker 1>or Sima that have had the longevity that they've had

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<v Speaker 1>are considered like decades in the crypto world. These coins

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<v Speaker 1>would come into prominence for for weeks and then would

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<v Speaker 1>would get you know, rug pulled if they were scams,

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<v Speaker 1>or would just lose the hype that you needed to

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<v Speaker 1>maintain in order to make that coin you know, have longevity. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>Obviously it's a different market right now. You know, crypto

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<v Speaker 1>markets getting a beating and a lot of that defy space.

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<v Speaker 1>Where last year in a bear market where everyone had

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<v Speaker 1>time to trade because they were you know at home. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>the you know, it was, it was, it was thriving.

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<v Speaker 1>And this year it's just it's just not the same

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<v Speaker 1>the same returns. There's definitely not the same energy. It's

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<v Speaker 1>really hard to get people to buy into projects now, um,

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<v Speaker 1>and so those those returns that they were promised um

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<v Speaker 1>last year are just not you know possible anymore. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>what's twenty on a dollar? That was coincidentally, I think

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<v Speaker 1>that was my first credit card grade that communitis We'll

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<v Speaker 1>be right back with more from Bloomberg Reports ms Relina

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<v Speaker 1>and Bloomberg Senior editor Mike Nan. I remember around last

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<v Speaker 1>year when people were buying into Dog and Sheba, you

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<v Speaker 1>had some anecdotes about, you know, folks that you knew

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<v Speaker 1>that were kind of like Does and Sheba millionaires effectively,

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<v Speaker 1>how are they doing these days? That's so good. They

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<v Speaker 1>don't talk about it as as much as they used to,

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<v Speaker 1>but you know, to me, Um and Misty has probably

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<v Speaker 1>interviewed a lot of people like this. You know, it's

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<v Speaker 1>interesting when we we hear so much from sort of

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<v Speaker 1>the high minded crypto people who want to change the

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<v Speaker 1>financial system and and you know, disrupt this and disrupt that,

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<v Speaker 1>and then on the other side of here from all

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<v Speaker 1>the traditional financial people saying it's a big ponzi. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's a scam avoided all. I feel like those two

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<v Speaker 1>are sort of the tales of the Bell curve. And

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<v Speaker 1>in the middle you've got these guys like my friends. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I hate to use the word degen or degenerate,

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<v Speaker 1>but let's you know, that's that I think that is

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<v Speaker 1>the industry official term for Yeah, it's just people who

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<v Speaker 1>are like I don't know if this is the future

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<v Speaker 1>of finance or if it's a PONDI or not. All

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<v Speaker 1>I know is this queen was up a thousand percent

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<v Speaker 1>last week. I want in, But I think there's also

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of people who treated it as who went in,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, clear eyed, and knew this could all disappear overnight. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, the key is never to to invest too

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<v Speaker 1>more than you can afford to lose in any in

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<v Speaker 1>any type of situation, and especially this you know so

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<v Speaker 1>um yeah, they're not. They're not wearing their bitcoin necklaces

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<v Speaker 1>like they used to, and the gold chains. I think

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<v Speaker 1>the laser eyes are gone from the you know, your

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<v Speaker 1>profile pictures don't look at it. Well, missy you talked

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<v Speaker 1>about the energy, right, like say, more about like that

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<v Speaker 1>vibe or lack of vibe. Yeah, so I think I'll

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<v Speaker 1>definitely agree with with Michael here. It depends what kind

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<v Speaker 1>of investor you are, and there's different kinds of crypto investors.

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<v Speaker 1>If you are one of the crypto investors that jumped

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<v Speaker 1>in in November when bitcoin was an all time high, um,

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<v Speaker 1>because you had FOMO, then odds are right now you're

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<v Speaker 1>probably facing several losses. But I think there's still some

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<v Speaker 1>crypto investors who see this as an asset class that

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<v Speaker 1>despite its volatile, its volatility isn't going to go anywhere.

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<v Speaker 1>Cryptos here, and we're gonna keep trying to find places

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<v Speaker 1>to make money um. And I think a good example

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<v Speaker 1>is one of the people we spoke to who said that,

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<v Speaker 1>even though you know, thousand percent yields are not available anymore,

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<v Speaker 1>a stable coin like USDC will give you maybe a

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<v Speaker 1>nine percent yield, which is not great compared to what

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<v Speaker 1>it used to be, but they argue it's better than

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<v Speaker 1>banks will give you. I mean, it's aggressively better than

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<v Speaker 1>what packs will give you. It's suspiciously better, and they're

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<v Speaker 1>happy to take that risk despite the collapse that we've

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<v Speaker 1>seen the past a few months. But all in all,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I feel like last year we just saw

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<v Speaker 1>so much of the hype everywhere, and I think that, um,

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<v Speaker 1>this was a good reality check for a lot of people.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that it's a lot harder to get that

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<v Speaker 1>sort of momentum um And I think a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>the people who were the sort of facilitators and instigators

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<v Speaker 1>of that hype throughout the last year have really cooled

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<v Speaker 1>down and I'm talking about you know, popular Twitter accounts,

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<v Speaker 1>popular Instagram accounts, popular discord channels where a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>these conversations were taking place. Just as a as a

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<v Speaker 1>final question, because you've both reported, I think on the

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<v Speaker 1>the ups and downs and and the shenanigans, what do

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<v Speaker 1>you think is coming next? Like when whenever you know,

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<v Speaker 1>financial markets go through cycles, right, there's like in every

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<v Speaker 1>in every bust or the seeds of the next boom.

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<v Speaker 1>Is there anything that you're seeing Are you're like, ha,

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<v Speaker 1>that's going in an interesting direction? Contry anybody else? Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I think Timissy's point about these suspiciously high yields, I

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<v Speaker 1>think there's you know, and I'm I'm not necessarily basing

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<v Speaker 1>this on any reporting. It's just what I would guess

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<v Speaker 1>is going to happen next, is that now there's going

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<v Speaker 1>to be a small skeptical I pointed at everything you know,

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<v Speaker 1>is this yield they're promising sustainable? And we might get

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<v Speaker 1>to the point like, you know, what's what's the going

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<v Speaker 1>treasury yield at like three and a quarter? You know,

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<v Speaker 1>if you can get three and a half out of

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<v Speaker 1>crypt though, that might look more attractive than trying to

0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.400
<v Speaker 1>get twenty percent and and beating the system, like, is

0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:40.560
<v Speaker 1>there a way is there legitimately a sustainable way to

0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:45.320
<v Speaker 1>be traditional finance yields in a safe or at least

0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:48.439
<v Speaker 1>not ridiculously unsafe manner in crypto? And I think that's

0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:52.040
<v Speaker 1>where you know people are gonna focus next, is like

0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:55.280
<v Speaker 1>how much of this was all sort of snake oil salesman,

0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:57.920
<v Speaker 1>and how much you know, what is the real potential

0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:01.559
<v Speaker 1>for yield farming and rewards from staking in crypto that's

0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:04.600
<v Speaker 1>sustainable and not so so risky that people are gonna

0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:07.280
<v Speaker 1>just stay away a mile away from it, a return

0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:12.800
<v Speaker 1>to boring, which is good for guys like UM. I

0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:17.040
<v Speaker 1>think that there's definitely a lot of parallels to what's

0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:19.320
<v Speaker 1>happening now with what happened in the dot com bubble.

0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:21.360
<v Speaker 1>I mean, we just hear this over and over and

0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:23.160
<v Speaker 1>over again when I talked to a lot of these

0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:27.800
<v Speaker 1>investors that throw money into crypto. I think although the

0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.520
<v Speaker 1>losses have been have been sort of you know, big um,

0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.120
<v Speaker 1>I think they're excited to see what comes out alive

0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:36.240
<v Speaker 1>on the other side. And I think we've all been

0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:39.720
<v Speaker 1>waiting for this moment because it's just such an oversaturated market.

0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:42.360
<v Speaker 1>So it's nice to see what projects can actually survive,

0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:45.920
<v Speaker 1>what coins are actually going to be there for the

0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:48.760
<v Speaker 1>long haul, if if, if I may so, I think

0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:52.520
<v Speaker 1>that's an eye something to keep an eye on. UM. Separately,

0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:56.520
<v Speaker 1>I think the M and A industry, crypto industry is

0:14:56.560 --> 0:15:00.840
<v Speaker 1>becoming increasingly autions. Yeah, mergers and that cruis Asians industry

0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:05.120
<v Speaker 1>within crypto is becoming increasingly interesting. Obviously, you know, we

0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:08.360
<v Speaker 1>had some news out about robin Hood potentially being acquired

0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:11.040
<v Speaker 1>by by f t X. I think, you know, it

0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:13.720
<v Speaker 1>kind of feels like we're in the same place we

0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:16.280
<v Speaker 1>were when sort of Facebook was buying everything, you know

0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:20.880
<v Speaker 1>ten years ago. Is the Facebook of the cycle? You know?

0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:24.680
<v Speaker 1>UM and I think that, you know, that was a

0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:28.560
<v Speaker 1>crazy announcement. It obviously hasn't been officially announced yet, but

0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:31.720
<v Speaker 1>if that were to happen, you're seeing some of you know,

0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:37.040
<v Speaker 1>the biggest crypto exchanges getting access to the U S

0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:40.520
<v Speaker 1>stock market UM crowd in a way that I think

0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:42.400
<v Speaker 1>is going to be very interesting to to keep an

0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:45.400
<v Speaker 1>eye out. I'm going to predict fewer Super Bowl ads

0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:49.120
<v Speaker 1>to go out on a limb that's actually not as man.

0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:52.720
<v Speaker 1>But what about what about celeb endorsements? Because I don't

0:15:52.720 --> 0:16:00.520
<v Speaker 1>know which was the Ronaldo Ronaldo come it was Binance?

0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:04.240
<v Speaker 1>Was Binance? Right? That's crazy? So yeah, we'll see, We

0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:06.640
<v Speaker 1>definitely will and we'll have you back to talk about

0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:08.720
<v Speaker 1>more chaos in the future. Thank you, Mrs Leina, and

0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:12.040
<v Speaker 1>thank you Mike. You can find more of Mike Regin's

0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:15.240
<v Speaker 1>reporting on the Bloomberg Terminal on Bloomberg dot com or

0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:19.440
<v Speaker 1>follow him on Twitter. He's at reaganonymous. And you can

0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:22.640
<v Speaker 1>find Missy or miss Relina on the Bloomberg Terminal on

0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:25.200
<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg dot com, and of course she's also on Twitter.

0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:28.400
<v Speaker 1>Her handle is at miss Relina. That's m I S

0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:33.560
<v Speaker 1>Y R L E n E. Since the founding document

0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:35.520
<v Speaker 1>that led to the invention of bitcoin, first to Pay

0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:38.120
<v Speaker 1>It in two thousand and eight, Bitcoin's true believers have

0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:41.240
<v Speaker 1>adopted a philosophy that resembles one for all and all

0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:45.480
<v Speaker 1>for one, or so, the theory goes in bitcoin, everyone's equal.

0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:49.320
<v Speaker 1>But does that theory match the reality of the ecosystem? Tomorrow,

0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:53.560
<v Speaker 1>Data scientist Alissa Blackburn and Dr Eris Lieberman Aiden, an

0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:56.840
<v Speaker 1>associate professor at Baila College of Medicine, join me to

0:16:56.920 --> 0:17:00.240
<v Speaker 1>discuss their research into who controlled bitcoin in those very

0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:07.840
<v Speaker 1>earliest days. I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, and this is Bloomberg Crypto,

0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:11.240
<v Speaker 1>a daily podcast from Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. For

0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:13.560
<v Speaker 1>more shows from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart

0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:17.159
<v Speaker 1>Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:20.440
<v Speaker 1>Email your questions, comments, or suggestions for the show to

0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:23.240
<v Speaker 1>Crypto at Bloomberg dot net, and you'll find us on

0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:28.000
<v Speaker 1>Twitter at Crypto. The supervising producer of Bloomberg Crypto is

0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:32.280
<v Speaker 1>Vicky Vergalina. Our producer is Mohammed Farrup. Desta wonder At

0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:35.440
<v Speaker 1>is our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidron