Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katy Curic and welcome to Next Question.
Speaker 1: I'm popping back on the podcast to share an important
Speaker 1: conversation I recently had with Dr Anthony Fauci. Of course
Speaker 1: he needs no introduction. There is a lot to discuss,
Speaker 1: breakthrough cases, vaccine mandates, booster shots, when and where you
Speaker 1: should be masking up, and the possibility of a variant
Speaker 1: worse than delta. I know, lots of scary news, but
Speaker 1: we're here to explain it all. Take a listen, spread
Speaker 1: the word, and let's end this pandemic already, right, guys.
Speaker 1: I know I am sick of it, and I'm sure
Speaker 1: you are too. A friend of mine recently described getting
Speaker 1: the vaccine shots as the Fauci alci, So please get
Speaker 1: yours if you haven't already. Okay, here's Dr Fauci. Dr Fauci.
Speaker 1: This pandemic was supposed to be in our rear view
Speaker 1: mirror at this point, but as you recently said, the
Speaker 1: country may be in trouble this fall. How frustrated are you? Well,
Speaker 1: it is. It is a frustration, Katie, but it's just
Speaker 1: the reality. The virus that we're dealing with is a
Speaker 1: different virus than we were dealing with several months ago,
Speaker 1: and we just have to deal with the reality of
Speaker 1: that it's a more formidable virus. It translates much more efficiently,
Speaker 1: and even individuals who have vaccinated, even though they are
Speaker 1: largely protected from serious disease, nonetheless can get infected and
Speaker 1: even transmitted. Let me ask you about that, because I
Speaker 1: think Dr Fauci there's been a lot of confusion about
Speaker 1: this delta variant even if you're vaccinated. The CDC says
Speaker 1: you can spread it and compared it in fact to
Speaker 1: the chicken pox, but the White House COVID Response Team
Speaker 1: pushed back on that assessment. Can you clarify once and
Speaker 1: for all if vaccinated people can spread the delta variant
Speaker 1: at the same rate as unvaccinated people. Okay, let me
Speaker 1: first say one thing that will be a background that
Speaker 1: will clarify the vaccine is doing exactly what we wanted
Speaker 1: it to do. It's preventing people from getting seriously ill.
Speaker 1: That's the reason why you get vaccinated. However, this virus
Speaker 1: is so transmissible that it can infect even though it's
Speaker 1: a small fraction. It can infect vaccinated people almost invariably
Speaker 1: in a way that they're either without symptoms or only
Speaker 1: mildly symptomatic, So it's less that it's going to make
Speaker 1: the vaccinated person sick. It's more that it's going to
Speaker 1: allow the vaccinated person to transmit it to someone else
Speaker 1: who might get sick, like a vulnerable person in the family,
Speaker 1: an elderly individual, a child who's unvacccinated. So the issue
Speaker 1: with a person who is vaccinated who gets infected, the
Speaker 1: level of virus in the naso pharynx of that person
Speaker 1: is relatively equivalent to that of an unvaccinated person, which
Speaker 1: means there's a mechanism to say that that person very
Speaker 1: well might be able to transmit it, and in fact,
Speaker 1: we have documented cases where a vaccinated infected person did
Speaker 1: transmit So it can be transmitted in a vaccinated person
Speaker 1: at the same rate as an unvaccinated You know, it
Speaker 1: is potentially. I want to clarify for you because I
Speaker 1: do want to make sure there's no confusion. The level
Speaker 1: of virus in the naso pharynx of a person who's
Speaker 1: vaccinated and infected is the same level as the level
Speaker 1: of virus in the nasal pharynx of an unvaccinated person,
Speaker 1: So you can make a reasonable some shan that they
Speaker 1: can be equivalent in how they transmit. However, there's one
Speaker 1: thing that works in favor of the vaccinated person. That level,
Speaker 1: though it starts off the same as an unaffected as
Speaker 1: an unvaccinated person, it decreases much more quickly because of
Speaker 1: the vaccine exactly exactly. Cases are rising in forty nine states,
Speaker 1: with a handful of states experiencing serious surges. But the
Speaker 1: good news is the vaccination rates in many of these
Speaker 1: states is increasing as well. In fact, American adults have
Speaker 1: now gotten at least one dose of the vaccine. The
Speaker 1: question is, is hurt im mutity still possible at this point. Yes,
Speaker 1: it is, but it won't happen Katie unless we get
Speaker 1: a vast majority of the nine three million people who
Speaker 1: are still unvaccinated who are eligible to be vaccinated. Unless
Speaker 1: we get them vaccinated, they are not going to contribute
Speaker 1: to the concept of her immunity. So her immunity, there's
Speaker 1: a concept of her community, which means you have enough
Speaker 1: vaccinated people plus people who were infected and protected so
Speaker 1: that the virus doesn't have any place to go. There
Speaker 1: aren't any vulnerable targets. We're not there yet. We don't
Speaker 1: know what the percentage is. Is that going to be
Speaker 1: the people who are still unvaccinated or is that going
Speaker 1: to be eighty five or eighty We don't know. When
Speaker 1: you don't know, you know what you do. You just
Speaker 1: get as many people vaccinated as you possibly can. Just
Speaker 1: as a delta variant has now become part of our vocabulary,
Speaker 1: we're hearing about new variants, this be one six to
Speaker 1: one in Florida, the delta plus variant. Which variants, Dr
Speaker 1: Fauci are you most concerned about and are you worried
Speaker 1: that the current vaccines will not be effective against them? Well,
Speaker 1: I am worried more about a variant that we haven't
Speaker 1: even seen yet, because they can. But the current delta
Speaker 1: variant is so efficient in its ability to crowd out
Speaker 1: the other variants that even though there are the variants
Speaker 1: you mentioned, which there's no reason to believe that they're
Speaker 1: going to be worse than the delta variant, they are
Speaker 1: not being over they're not overtaking the delta variants. So
Speaker 1: the one good thing is that the vaccines work quite
Speaker 1: well against the delta variant in some respects. It's good
Speaker 1: that the delta variant is not being outstripped. By the
Speaker 1: others because we know we can deal with the delta
Speaker 1: variant really quite well. My concern is that if we
Speaker 1: allow there to be smoldering infection into the fall and
Speaker 1: into the winter, because those nine million people are not
Speaker 1: getting vaccinated for the most part, my concern would be,
Speaker 1: you may allow a variant that we haven't even recognized
Speaker 1: yet to come along and in fact be better at
Speaker 1: transmitting and more serious than the delta. We haven't seen
Speaker 1: that yet, So rather than be worrying about these others
Speaker 1: that are around, let's make sure we don't let new
Speaker 1: ones come in well our unvaccinated people. The reason we're
Speaker 1: seeing these new strains and will an increase in vaccinations
Speaker 1: mitigate the virus morphine in multiple ways? Well, that's a
Speaker 1: good one because the answer is short, yes, Okay, that's
Speaker 1: all you need to say. So, in other words, please
Speaker 1: get vaccinated more with Dr Anthony Fauci. Right after this,
Speaker 1: let's talk about boosters that who just announce more a
Speaker 1: toorium on booster shots until more countries can get ahold
Speaker 1: of the vaccine. But companies like fisers saying their efficacy
Speaker 1: decreases after about six months and a number of countries Israel, Germany,
Speaker 1: in the UK, among others, are starting to offer booster shots.
Speaker 1: Where do you stand on boosters for the US. I
Speaker 1: think we can do both, Katie. I think if we
Speaker 1: need an additional boost an initial dose to get the
Speaker 1: optimal protection because it essentially attendued for a while. I
Speaker 1: believe that we can do that in this country, particularly
Speaker 1: for people who are immunely suppressed, people who are on
Speaker 1: cancechemo therapy, people who have transplant, they very well may
Speaker 1: need as part of their primary regimen a three shot
Speaker 1: boost of an m R and A. We are doing
Speaker 1: a lot, and we will be doing more to supply
Speaker 1: doses internationally. I believe that we are capable, not only
Speaker 1: our own nation, but also the other wealthy nations in
Speaker 1: the world can do both. You certainly want to pay
Speaker 1: very good attention to getting vaccine doses to the developing world,
Speaker 1: but I believe you can do both. You can boost
Speaker 1: and get doses to them. If you get a J
Speaker 1: and J or a Maderna vaccine. Can you get a
Speaker 1: fisor boostere you have to stick with one brand. Well,
Speaker 1: we're doing studies right now. They're referred to as mix
Speaker 1: and match studies to see if there's any issue with
Speaker 1: giving one vaccine as the prime followed by the other
Speaker 1: is the boost, or giving two of the same and
Speaker 1: then let the third one be different. As as a scientist,
Speaker 1: I don't think there's going to be an issue with that,
Speaker 1: but you want to formally prove it, and that's the
Speaker 1: studies that are being done to do that. A lot
Speaker 1: of duct ers in hospitals nationwider saying the population of
Speaker 1: patients they're seeing this go around is very different than
Speaker 1: the initial surges. They're younger, they're in their twenties and thirties, Younger, sicker, quicker.
Speaker 1: Do we know why it is that, in your view,
Speaker 1: convincing younger people to get vaccinated. Well, in answer to
Speaker 1: your second question, I hope the realization that you're not
Speaker 1: exempt from getting either seriously ill with COVID nineteen or
Speaker 1: even getting long COVID after you recover, which is something
Speaker 1: that people should take seriously, namely the persistence of symptoms.
Speaker 1: One of the likely reasons that may be more than
Speaker 1: one one. One of the reasons you might be seeing,
Speaker 1: relatively speaking, more young people being hospitalized is that first
Speaker 1: you're dealing with a very transmissible virus, so everybody who's
Speaker 1: unvaccinated is getting infected. The seeing more young versus older
Speaker 1: because we all we know that the elderly population is
Speaker 1: already vaccinated, so there's a skewing that among the unvaccinated,
Speaker 1: relatively speaking, more of them are young. So it is
Speaker 1: not surprising that when you look at hospitalizations you're seeing
Speaker 1: relative to the elderly, it looks like they're are more
Speaker 1: young than are being hospitalized. That's very true because the
Speaker 1: elderly are more protected because more of them are vaccinated.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about breakthrough cases. My understanding is they're being
Speaker 1: trapped only if they require hospitalization or death. Shouldn't we
Speaker 1: be tracking breakthrough cases among the general population. I imagine
Speaker 1: that would be pretty difficult to do, but especially if
Speaker 1: you're some asymptomatic. But isn't that something we should be
Speaker 1: focused on so we can get real numbers about the
Speaker 1: you know, who is getting COVID after vaccination? Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: but you really want to do it what the Israelis
Speaker 1: have done and what the Brits have done, But most
Speaker 1: of the Israelis is rather than do it generally the
Speaker 1: population that when you get someone who's infected and they're asymptomatic.
Speaker 1: You test all of their context, not just the context
Speaker 1: of the sick people. And the CDC is going to
Speaker 1: be starting to do that, in fact, they already are.
Speaker 1: Was that a mistake to not do it right away,
Speaker 1: because I don't know it just hospitalizations or deaths seem
Speaker 1: to be uh, you know, not the not the whole picture. Yeah, no, Kattie,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to answer that directly. When I say
Speaker 1: something of a mistake or not, it's an automatic sound bite.
Speaker 1: It's not productive, So I'll refrain size the CDC's protocol.
Speaker 1: I think the c DHC tries their very best. They
Speaker 1: don't always get it right, but they definitely try their best,
Speaker 1: and they're very competent. Last weekend, almost four hundred thousand
Speaker 1: people went to Lollapalooza. Attendees this was a big music
Speaker 1: festival in Chicago. Attend needed to provide their vaccine card
Speaker 1: or negative COVID task in order to go. But looking
Speaker 1: at those photos and Millennial Park that they freaked you out.
Speaker 1: I was a bit taken aback by the by the
Speaker 1: film clips that I saw. There were a lot of
Speaker 1: people crowded around together, you know, and given the fact
Speaker 1: that we know that vaccinated people can spread infection, and
Speaker 1: even though we know that outdoors is always safer than indoors,
Speaker 1: there was a really lot of crowded that we saw
Speaker 1: in those films. So I got a little bit concerned
Speaker 1: about that myself. Would you avoid those kinds of crowds
Speaker 1: if it were you, or if it were me or
Speaker 1: my daughters. I'm pretty risk averse, Katie, so I would
Speaker 1: even though I'm vaccinated, I don't think I would go
Speaker 1: to a really massively crowded where you essentially face to
Speaker 1: face with somebody. I would be concerned about that. They've
Speaker 1: been suggestions, most notably by former HHS Secretary Alex A.
Speaker 1: S Our. President Trump could do more to convince the unvaccinated.
Speaker 1: Nearly of Republicans say they're not planning to be vaccinated,
Speaker 1: and the Democrats could be giving President Trump work credit
Speaker 1: for Operation Work Speed. Do you agree and are there
Speaker 1: other ways to depute the simple act of getting vaccinated? Well,
Speaker 1: I think there needs to be deep politicizing always when
Speaker 1: you're in a public health issue. I've been saying that
Speaker 1: for a year and a half. Sometimes it has gotten
Speaker 1: me to be the brunt of people's criticism because there
Speaker 1: is politicization, usually by people who are trying to exam
Speaker 1: for example, say we shouldn't be doing the things that
Speaker 1: are public health measures, and I think that that's really unfortunately.
Speaker 1: What I'm what I'm hardened by is that we are
Speaker 1: seeing Republican leaders who are saying get vaccinated. I mean,
Speaker 1: Governor asked Asa Hutchinson is beating the bushes in Arkansas
Speaker 1: doing that. Steve Scalise has has really been promoting vaccines.
Speaker 1: Even even Governor de Santis in Florida has been saying
Speaker 1: that despite the fact that he is saying that he
Speaker 1: doesn't want there to be masked mandates, he is encouraging vaccination,
Speaker 1: which is good. New York City will be become the
Speaker 1: first US city to will require proof of at least
Speaker 1: one vaccination shot in order to interplaces like bars, restaurants,
Speaker 1: and gems. Do you think the strategy should be adopted nationwide?
Speaker 1: It seems to be a pretty good way to motivate
Speaker 1: people to get vaccinated. I do think that as a
Speaker 1: public health person, we should be putting more pressure on
Speaker 1: people to get vaccinated. And I believe when the f
Speaker 1: DA comes through, hopefully within the next few weeks, to
Speaker 1: make this in officially approved vaccines plural as opposed to
Speaker 1: just an eu A. I hope that we will then
Speaker 1: have people feel much more empowered to do some kind
Speaker 1: of mandating, For example, universities and colleges saying you're not
Speaker 1: going to be able to come in person unless you
Speaker 1: get vaccinated. I think that would chuck a lot of
Speaker 1: young people who are who are resistant to get vaccinated.
Speaker 1: I think large corporations will be doing the same thing.
Speaker 1: I was gonna ask you that Google, Microsoft, Tyson's Foods
Speaker 1: requiring employees to be fully vaccinated. Do you think that
Speaker 1: more will be empowered after I'm Katie, I'm convinced to that.
Speaker 1: I think that if you talk to people you know
Speaker 1: off the record that don't want to be talking about
Speaker 1: it publicly, they're saying that once they get the backup
Speaker 1: of a fully approved vaccine, they will be much more
Speaker 1: enthusiastic about mandating for their enterprise that you need to
Speaker 1: be eaccinated. After this break, Dr Fauci answers your most
Speaker 1: pressing questions. We're gonna do a quick round robin of
Speaker 1: practical advice from questions we got from social media. Dr Fauci,
Speaker 1: should people be wearing masks regardless of their vaccination status
Speaker 1: indoors I think is probably more specific. Yes, that's a
Speaker 1: CDC recommendation and I totally agree with it. How do
Speaker 1: the COVID variants affect children under five? I'm concerned about
Speaker 1: them getting sick from the virus with a new variants
Speaker 1: and no protection. Well, you should be concerned, because everyone
Speaker 1: is susceptible, whether you're a child, an adult, or an elderly.
Speaker 1: If you're unvaccinated, you are susceptible. It is true that
Speaker 1: young children generally do not get as seriously involved with
Speaker 1: a severe full of COVID nineteen when they're very, very young.
Speaker 1: But we are starting to see in real time that
Speaker 1: there are now young people who you would have expect
Speaker 1: were less likely who are getting seriously ill. There have
Speaker 1: been close to four hundred, about three hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: plus children who have died thus far from COVID nineteen.
Speaker 1: That's more than influenza in any given year. That's more
Speaker 1: than a respiratory since the ChIL virus in any given year.
Speaker 1: That's still a mystery. Well, why some people get sick
Speaker 1: and some people don't? Soul Sorry, One Florida grandmother who's
Speaker 1: fully vaccinated, wanted me to ask you if she should
Speaker 1: wear a mask when visiting her babysitting her fourign six
Speaker 1: year old grandsons, especially since they're not required to wear
Speaker 1: a mask in school. If Grandma is unvaccinated, she doescinated,
Speaker 1: then she doesn't need to wear a mask. But does
Speaker 1: she doesn't need to worry about the delta variant being
Speaker 1: transfer from the children to her. No, when you are
Speaker 1: in the home setting, if you have vaccinated and you
Speaker 1: have children in the home setting, you do not need
Speaker 1: to wear a mask. Speaking of schools, there is still
Speaker 1: no real consensus on how to keep kids uh safe
Speaker 1: in school as well as teachers, and that's creating a
Speaker 1: ton of anxiety. As you know, people are kind of
Speaker 1: pulling out their hair thinking, oh my god, do I
Speaker 1: have to deal with this again this school year? Um,
Speaker 1: what do you say to parents and school officials facing
Speaker 1: another uncertain year? Well, there are a couple of ways
Speaker 1: to safeguard children and get them back to school in person.
Speaker 1: It is a very important primary goal in the full
Speaker 1: to get the children in class and not virtual because
Speaker 1: we are well aware of the delaterious effects on children,
Speaker 1: their development, their mental health, there, educational development, to get
Speaker 1: them in school. Therefore, we've got to make sure they're
Speaker 1: safe in school. There are a couple of ways to
Speaker 1: do that. Get the people who are eligible to be
Speaker 1: vaccinated around the children, get them vaccinated, teachers, school staff,
Speaker 1: and anybody else. For those who are not able to
Speaker 1: be vaccinated, the only way you can protect them, and
Speaker 1: the CDC recommendations are clear. In school, everyone should be masked,
Speaker 1: whether you're vaccinated or not. That's a very clear recommendation
Speaker 1: by the c d C. When will the vaccine be
Speaker 1: available for children under twelve, We don't know the answer
Speaker 1: to that, Katie. We are doing studies to getting information
Speaker 1: that would be able to validate a decision to do that.
Speaker 1: We're collecting those data, will get more and more of
Speaker 1: it as we've approached the full but ultimately that will
Speaker 1: be a regulatory decision by the FDA, together with an
Speaker 1: advisory a condition from the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices
Speaker 1: that advises the CDC. So this may take quite a while. Well,
Speaker 1: I hope it doesn't take quite a while. I hope
Speaker 1: we do within the next several months, but I hope
Speaker 1: before the end of the year. But we don't know
Speaker 1: that that's the sea. That's an FDA decision. Someone on
Speaker 1: our team is asking, if vaccinated people can spread the virus,
Speaker 1: why aren't they required to be quarantined if they've been
Speaker 1: exposed to someone who has tested positive. No, you just
Speaker 1: need to test if you've been exposed, you don't need
Speaker 1: to quarantine. Someone says, I'm being treated for Lukenian to
Speaker 1: not make antibodies from the vaccine. What can I do
Speaker 1: to protect myself? Well, that's an individual first of all,
Speaker 1: to wear a mask, that's the first thing. But I
Speaker 1: hope that we will provide protection for that individual and
Speaker 1: people in her same situation by relatively quickly making the
Speaker 1: decision to get an additional dose. To immune suppressed people,
Speaker 1: they are a different category than a healthy or even
Speaker 1: an elderly healthy person, because a person who is either
Speaker 1: immune is suppressed from transplant, from chemotherapy, or from immune
Speaker 1: suppression likely never made an adequate immune response to begin with.
Speaker 1: Someone asked Dr Fauci if emmy suppressing drugs reduced the
Speaker 1: efficacy of the COVID vaccine. Absolutely absolutely, it does. It
Speaker 1: does so, so it's not if you're go ahead. If
Speaker 1: you are immune is suppressed because of the drugs that
Speaker 1: you are taking for transplant, for cancer, chemotherapy, or for
Speaker 1: an autoimmune disease. The drugs that you receive suppress your
Speaker 1: disease also suppress your ability to respond to the vaccine.
Speaker 1: So you should talk to your doctor about getting getting
Speaker 1: a booster shot. And you know when this whole thing started,
Speaker 1: I remember summer was the time when it wasn't going
Speaker 1: to be very contagious and wasn't going to be a
Speaker 1: problem because people were going to be spending more time outside.
Speaker 1: So that hasn't been the case. What do you foresee
Speaker 1: for the fall and winter, more lockdowns? What do you
Speaker 1: think is going to happen? I don't see lockdowns because
Speaker 1: there is substantial enough proportion of the population that it's
Speaker 1: fully vaccinated. Six there are seventy of the adults have
Speaker 1: at least a single dose that it was accomplished a
Speaker 1: couple of days ago, and we have more than eight
Speaker 1: of the elderly population that are vaccinated. Under those circumstances,
Speaker 1: you're still going to have a lot of spread if
Speaker 1: we don't get that ninety three million people who are
Speaker 1: eligible to be vaccinated vaccinated, but you won't have such
Speaker 1: a situation that would trigger a lockdown. I would be
Speaker 1: very surprised if that happens. What you will have is
Speaker 1: spread of infection predominantly among the unvaccinated, and you will
Speaker 1: see hospitalizations predominantly among the unvaccinated as we go through
Speaker 1: the fall and into the winter if we don't very
Speaker 1: aggressively get people vaccinated. We got so many comments about
Speaker 1: you and from people who deeply admire you, Dr Fauci
Speaker 1: and the job you've done. What's the best advice you've
Speaker 1: give been given about how to get through these tumultuous times. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think what you need to do if
Speaker 1: you're in a position like I am, as a public
Speaker 1: health person and a scientist and person who develops vaccines,
Speaker 1: is to just focus on your job. We're in a
Speaker 1: very difficult position. We have things going against us. A,
Speaker 1: we have a very formidable virus and be we have
Speaker 1: a very divisive society where you just can't run away
Speaker 1: from the fact that there's a lot of bad news
Speaker 1: politics going on here. We've got to focus on our job.
Speaker 1: And if you're not a medical person and you're trying
Speaker 1: to get just through this a get vaccinated and be
Speaker 1: obey or listen to as it were I wouldn't say
Speaker 1: obey because that's not an order. They're not ordering you
Speaker 1: do it, but listen to the recommendations of the c
Speaker 1: D c Dr Fauci. Always great to see you. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for talking with me. You've got to
Speaker 1: reach people. However you can write yes, thank you for
Speaker 1: having me, Katie. It's always a pleasure to be with you.
Speaker 1: Next Question with Katie Couric is a production of I
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