1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: Also media. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,639 Speaker 1: to let you know this is a compilation episode, So 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: every episode of the week that just happened is here 4 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for 5 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. 6 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 7 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 8 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions. 9 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 2: Hi. 10 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 3: Everyone, welcome to the podcast. 11 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 4: It's me James today and I am very lucky to 12 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 4: be joined by Azad, who is fighting in Mianma Chinland 13 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 4: specifically with the AIF. Welcome to the show, Zad, thanks 14 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 4: for being here. 15 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for having me on of course. Yeah. 16 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,239 Speaker 4: This has been a project that I've been following from 17 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 4: Afar for some time, maybe several months now I think. 18 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:50,919 Speaker 4: But for listeners who have not been following, can you 19 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 4: explain very briefly the role of the AIF in the 20 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 4: struggle in Miammah. 21 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, getting right into it. 22 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, first, I like give a little bit of a 23 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 5: spiel about like the context of the AIF maybe for 24 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 5: people who aren't so familiar. Yeah, in Burma already for decades, 25 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 5: there have been some kind of established president of we 26 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 5: can say foreign volunteers of some kind or you know, 27 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 5: ex military personnel or you know, somebody who is somehow 28 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 5: drawn to the conflict. There has already been the president 29 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 5: for some decades of people coming in a very limited 30 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 5: capacity and helping with this group or that group. But 31 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 5: it mostly has been participation of two big characteristics. The 32 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 5: first characteristic is that, of course it's been an individual basis, 33 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 5: like whoever individual had this idea, they organized it themselves, 34 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 5: they handled it themselves, with the exception of like the 35 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 5: Freemam arrangers, but I wouldn't classify them as like, you know, 36 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 5: foreign fighters or anything. 37 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 6: They do very very. 38 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 3: Good work, but yeah, slightly different role. Yeah yeah. 39 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 5: The people who did this kind of stuff were mostly 40 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 5: coming as individuals, you know, kind of on their own progative. 41 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 5: And secondly, they were overwhelmingly we can say non political 42 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 5: or you know, ex. Military guys from Western nations or 43 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 5: you know, from neighboring countries who were somehow drawn to 44 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 5: the conflict and wanted to use their skills in that 45 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 5: kind of light. The AIF, on the other hand, is 46 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:17,679 Speaker 5: absolutely by no means like the foreign fighter organization in 47 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:19,679 Speaker 5: me and more or it's not like the foreign battalion, 48 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 5: or that's also not what the goal in the mission is. 49 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 5: It specifically came about after twenty twenty three twenty twenty four, 50 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 5: there were slowly more internationals in the country, internationalists we 51 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 5: can say. 52 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, who were here on a much more yeah. 53 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 5: Albeit at the beginning individual it was the same where 54 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 5: people were organizing their own ways, organizing their own routes 55 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,679 Speaker 5: and connections, but with a much more different perspective of 56 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 5: this kind of more intentional anti fascist internationalist perspective yeah, 57 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 5: which led over into the name. So kind of as 58 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 5: a result of discussions between me and some other people 59 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 5: who were here and also some other people outside the country, 60 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 5: the idea to set up a formation or an organization 61 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 5: like this was floated, and of course after talking with 62 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 5: like local partners and local comrades who anyway were involved 63 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 5: with on the ground, there was a lot of enthusiasm 64 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 5: on both sides, both from people outside the country, both 65 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 5: from people inside the country. 66 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 3: So kind of. 67 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 5: Within that context, the idea to take a step forward 68 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 5: in a more organized, explicitly consistent yeah, to use a 69 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 5: polite word, consistent perspective for internationalism and Meanmoir, that was kind. 70 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 7: Of the goal. 71 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. 72 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 4: And if people aren't familiar to see Anti Fascist Internationalists front, right, 73 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 4: the AIF has a really cool logo with the peacock 74 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 4: tail and the three rows and the like the white 75 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 4: star in a red background. I thought that was I 76 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 4: really appreciate your logo. 77 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. 78 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 4: So yeah, I think people will like when they talk 79 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 4: about the conflict in me Ima, they will be like, oh, 80 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 4: why are they why I say, not more internationalists and 81 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 4: why is they not more international volunteers? Something that you 82 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 4: and I have spoken about before, it is that like, 83 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 4: this has always been an international conflict, right, and it's 84 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 4: always been an anti fascist conflict as well. Do you 85 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 4: want to explain that to people who because I think 86 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 4: sometimes it's easy for people to fall into these orientalists 87 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 4: of somewhat colonialist constructions of the conflict there, and I 88 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 4: think you and I both agree that those are not 89 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 4: the lens through which we should view it. 90 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:24,600 Speaker 6: Yeah. 91 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 5: I mean, of course, the history of let's just use 92 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 5: a big term, the history of conflict in Burma is 93 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 5: of course very deep and very complex and has a 94 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 5: thousand different ethnic and political you know branches that you 95 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 5: can go down. But if we're really focusing in on 96 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 5: this post coup situation, which even though it has its 97 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 5: roots and its context and of course the pre coup 98 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 5: with you know, the existing ethink resistance organizations and the 99 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 5: democracy movement, if we're really looking at the conflict post 100 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 5: twenty twenty one coup, fundamentally it is not any one 101 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 5: nations struggle. It is not anyone's people struggle. It is 102 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 5: not even like a national struggle of Berno, we can 103 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 5: say it is fundamentally a fight against fascism. It is 104 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 5: an anti fascist people's revolution. Where after, of course the 105 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 5: coup and after these initial stages of protest and uprising, 106 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 5: the people were faced by a choice of do we 107 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 5: accept dictatorship, do we go back and do we live 108 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 5: like normal? Do we accept fascism, do we live under fascism? 109 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 5: Or do we prepare to sacrifice everything to fight against fascism? 110 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,799 Speaker 5: And that was the fundamental calculation in that So insofar 111 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 5: as it's to fight against fascism, that makes it an 112 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 5: international struggle in itself. I mean, without even you know, 113 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 5: going on too much about how anyways, the so called 114 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 5: nation of Burma is dozens and dozens and dozens of 115 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 5: different ethnicities and religions and cultures, which I mean, if 116 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 5: you aren't thinking in the traditional nation state sense of 117 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 5: internationalism and more thinking in the kind of brotherhood of 118 00:05:56,320 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 5: cultures and traditions. Then yeah, of course, without the flashy 119 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 5: you know, foreigners coming, it's already an international struggle against fascism. 120 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 5: But I think, you know, on a more intentional level, 121 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 5: the dictatorship represents fundamentally the same fascism that exists all 122 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 5: over the world, fundamentally state oppression. So yeah, in that regard, 123 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 5: it's very much an international struggle. 124 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, And something we've spoken about before is like the 125 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 4: links of the inspiration I guess that comes from the 126 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 4: internationalist struggle in North and East Syria and Rajava, and 127 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 4: how that's very much been like a source of inspiration 128 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,359 Speaker 4: for young people in the MR. I've spoken to tons 129 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 4: of them even two years ago, especially young women there 130 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 4: right looking at the women's revolution in Rajava and seeing 131 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 4: like that this was a possibility, that this was something 132 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 4: like on the horizon that they could strive for. Do 133 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 4: you want to explain like your own perceptions of that 134 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 4: inexperience of it. 135 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 5: Yeah, sure, Well, first, you know, not to overstate things, 136 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 5: while of course the Rojava is a big inspiration I 137 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 5: think not just for the people here in me and 138 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 5: mar but truly like a beacon of hope in general. Yeah, 139 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 5: you know, you know, a little biased, having spent time 140 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 5: in Rozebah as you also have, I think, how can 141 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 5: we say, I'll give a bit of context. In twenty 142 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 5: twenty three, I think this message went out from the 143 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 5: can DF to the forces in Rajaba, and I was 144 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 5: there at the time. 145 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 3: So was I really what? 146 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 6: Yeah? 147 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was stared to say we were there. 148 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 4: We were both there at the same time. Everyone started 149 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 4: hitting me up for book recommendations. It's like October, I 150 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 4: didn't know that. Yeah, okay, right off Joctoba seventh, I think. 151 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 3: Okay. 152 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 5: Anyways, so yeah, when this came out, like some friends 153 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 5: sent this to me and was like, hey, can you 154 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 5: translate this? And I like, not only me when I 155 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 5: saw it, but also all the friends in the leadership 156 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 5: and you know, all of the comrades there were like 157 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 5: very one surprised, but also very excited and very happy 158 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 5: to kind of see a message like this. And I 159 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 5: think also when the message was returned, you know, some 160 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 5: of the friends from the leadership you know, recorded this 161 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 5: video message and sent it back. It was very much 162 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 5: like a very pleasant, happy surprise for everyone involved, and 163 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 5: it really showed the degree to which fundamentally we are 164 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 5: fighting the same struggles, even though you know, maybe you know, 165 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 5: materially we're not talking about like guns going from one 166 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 5: place to the other. Fundamentally we're comrades on the same 167 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 5: very very long frontline. Now, I think what that looks 168 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 5: like locally, especially, I'm happy that you mentioned, like specifically 169 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 5: the women's situation. You know, I myself sometimes when I'm 170 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 5: giving training here, I like to show videos from certain 171 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 5: parts of Kurdistan where they're very effective, we can say, 172 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 5: and of course that naturally includes like the very very 173 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 5: heavy participation of the women's guerrilla units as well as 174 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 5: the men's guerrilla units, and specifically here and me andmar 175 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 5: we see a very difficult situation in the revolution in 176 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 5: regards to like the position of women, where because of 177 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 5: I mean, it's a very new revolution. Lots of these 178 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 5: people are you know, a couple years ago, they were 179 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 5: just in we can say, liberal society. They weren't in 180 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 5: any kind of you know, maybe at best activist context. 181 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 5: But it's not like these people had a strong revolutionary platform, 182 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 5: and then they said, okay, let's launch a revolution against 183 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 5: the dictatorship. It was a natural evolution from protests to 184 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 5: resistance to revolution. 185 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 6: No. 186 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 5: So because of that, the same social structures that existed 187 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:28,439 Speaker 5: in liberal society were in a large part transplanted into 188 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 5: resistance organizations, which means that, Yeah, of course, thousands and 189 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 5: thousands of women from all over the country have traveled 190 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 5: to these camps, you know, have prepared and have ready 191 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:40,719 Speaker 5: themselves to fight against the dictatorship. But in a lot 192 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 5: of ways they're still facing off against you know, the 193 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 5: patriarchy that is inherent in all of our modern society. Yeah, 194 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 5: so I think Rajaba into much as like I think 195 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 5: anybody can take Rojaba as an inspiration. If there is 196 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 5: anybody who, more so than anybody else, can take as 197 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 5: an inspiration, it is women and youth. As that is, 198 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 5: of course, like the revolutionary focus of the entire paradigm 199 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 5: of the Reva revolution. So I won't say that it's like, 200 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 5: you know, like the leading inspiration for the people of 201 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 5: me and more or something, but definitely the people who 202 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 5: have interacted with it or interfaced with it in some 203 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 5: capacity be it official or unofficial. Of course, have gotten 204 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 5: a lot of inspiration from that, and us as internationalists, 205 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 5: both me as well as some other people here, you know, 206 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 5: having had that in person experience with the Java revolution, 207 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 5: of course for us is eternal inspiration. 208 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's a really beautiful thing to see, like 209 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 4: you said, just to see people like when we think 210 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 4: about alliances in conflict, right, if we look at the 211 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:41,559 Speaker 4: extremely interactional way that the United States enters inso those alliances, right, 212 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 4: it's willing to allow the people who approach Java to 213 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 4: die for it in the battle against I say so 214 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 4: Dash that it's not willing to stand by them when 215 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 4: they're being bombed by Turkey, right, something right, and you 216 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 4: and I have both seen. But to see something that 217 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:00,719 Speaker 4: is said begins with genuine solidarity and admiration. And one 218 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 4: thing I really liked was when the k and DF 219 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 4: replied to the video that came from Rajava, they said 220 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 4: that they still had a lot to learn, especially with 221 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 4: regards to gender. And it's so rare to see revolutionary 222 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 4: movements submitting their faults, especially during the struggle, right during 223 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 4: the moment of revolution. And that's something that I've been 224 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 4: so impressed with in Myanmar for a long time, is 225 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 4: their willingness to look out at the world and see 226 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 4: things that they think are better and adopt them or 227 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 4: to at least consider them. It's the thing in Java too. 228 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 4: Some of the one of the friends in Rajaba said 229 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 4: that they were excited to learn more about Meamma because 230 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 4: they hadn't worked everything out, and that they thought that 231 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 4: there might be some solutions that they could learn from there. 232 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 4: And so it's really special to see that that solidarity 233 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 4: that comes from a very genuine place and not just 234 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 4: it's not just rhetorical. There are people such as yourself 235 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 4: who have made the journey to fight on behalf of 236 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 4: the revolution in me Mma. But it's really a special thing. 237 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 4: It's really a wonderful thing to see, especially like with 238 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 4: the world seemingly getting more and more isolated and more 239 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 4: and more nationalists as supposed to internationalists, like, it's a 240 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 4: really beautiful time for it to happen too. 241 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 6: Yeah. 242 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 5: Absolutely, And I think I mean not to make the podcast, 243 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 5: you know, a democratic and federalism ideology lesson or something, 244 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 5: but yeah, I think insofar as the revolution in Rajaba 245 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:31,239 Speaker 5: considers itself a force on the side of democratic modernity. 246 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 5: I think it's important to understand that they really mean it, 247 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 5: like they really do see the conflicts that we're facing 248 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 5: today against the capitalist system, against capitalist modernity. 249 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 3: They really do see it. 250 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 5: In this all encompassing light, that even though something is 251 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 5: happening all the way over here in me and more 252 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 5: and that maybe you could only tangentially connect to what's 253 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 5: happening over there, they really do believe it when they 254 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 5: say we are comrades in this same struggle. And that's 255 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 5: why the solidarity is so beautiful to see, because it's 256 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,079 Speaker 5: that real solidarity. It's not just like, you know, pendering 257 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 5: to some internationalist kind of sentiment. 258 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 6: Yeah. 259 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 4: No, it's very real and it has a very genuine 260 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 4: basis in sharing more than common interests. I will say, so, 261 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 4: for people who are not as familiar with the struggle 262 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 4: where you are, which is in chin Land, would you 263 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 4: explain a little bit of I mean, obviously we can, 264 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 4: and we will at some point explain a little bit 265 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 4: more of the history of chin Lan, because I think 266 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 4: it's very important and it sometimes gets marginalized from even 267 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 4: narrative of the revolution. But can you explain like the 268 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 4: groups and the struggle as it has been since twenty 269 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 4: twenty one. In many ways, Chinland is where the revolution, 270 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 4: the arm revolution began, right, So can you explain how 271 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 4: we get to a place today where in recent weeks 272 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 4: we've seen massive victories in Chinland. 273 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 5: Yes, So, as you know, the political situation at least 274 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 5: between the groups is somewhat complicated. So I'll try my 275 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 5: best to like most fairly but also somehow accurately described. Yeah, 276 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 5: I'll start from the history. We can say, as you 277 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,599 Speaker 5: described in and around Mindot at the time of these protests, 278 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 5: this was kind of like the catalyst and one of 279 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 5: the first places that actual armed resistance to this dictatorship started. 280 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 5: And that wasn't armed resistance like with guns or something 281 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 5: that was armed resistance like with the shotguns like double 282 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 5: barrel shotguns from India, muzzle loading, traditional hunting rifles and 283 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 5: air guns and things like this, and with that kind 284 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 5: of weaponry, they were going and attacking police stations and checkpoints. 285 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 5: So it really was a sign for everyone like not 286 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 5: only the bravery of the people that are willing to 287 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 5: do something like that, but the willingness and the risk 288 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 5: that these people are able to take, and the seriousness 289 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 5: of their opposition to the dictatorship that look, this isn't 290 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 5: just a protest anymore. Even we have only sticks and stones, 291 00:14:59,160 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 5: we will. 292 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 8: Dis may this dictatorship. 293 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 5: So yeah, that was a very inspiring early period. And 294 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 5: I think even before the involvement of some of the 295 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 5: bigger ethnic armed organizations, there were already local CDFs, which 296 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 5: stands for Chinland Defense Force, which is kind of just 297 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 5: like PDF. It's a moniker that a lot of groups share. 298 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 3: There were a lot of. 299 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 5: Different PDFs and cdf popping up just in the days 300 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 5: following the coup in Chinland. So yeah, like from the 301 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 5: very beginning there was the precedent in the history of 302 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 5: revolution there. Now these towns that were the beginning of 303 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 5: the revolution have now been seized. So min Dot as 304 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 5: of last month was taken by the Chin Brotherhood Alliance 305 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 5: as well as you know CDF, min DOT and alliance partners. 306 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 5: So the progress has definitely been made. The current landscape 307 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 5: looks a little bit like this. In Chin State, there's 308 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 5: two big blocks. We can say, one block is the 309 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 5: Chin Brotherhood and one block is the Chin Land Council. 310 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 5: At first there was only one block called the ICF NCC, 311 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 5: which sends for interim Chin National Coordinating Council or committee. 312 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 5: I always forget the last ceime and that was like 313 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 5: the political big umbrella organization. And there was the CJDC, 314 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 5: which is the military big umbrella organization that sends for 315 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 5: Chinlin Joint Defense Council or Committee. 316 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 3: Again Lessie always in big use. So yeah, for a. 317 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 5: Long time it was everyone, including one of the you know, 318 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 5: very old ethnic resistance organizations, the CNA CNF, the Chin 319 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 5: National Army, Chin National Front was kind of involved in 320 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 5: this one big umbrella organization and everywhere there was resistance 321 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 5: against the dictatorship and on some level cooperation both with 322 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 5: Chin groups as well as with the nug In twenty 323 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 5: twenty three, political events occurred and as we can say politely, 324 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 5: a disagreement in the political future of Chinland separated into 325 00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 5: two groups, with CNACNF withdrawing from the CJA and forming 326 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 5: their Chinlen Council, and the groups that kind of subscribed 327 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 5: to that vision and subscribed to that path they joined 328 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 5: the new Chinlen Council and all of the groups that 329 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 5: remained in the CGDC in the ICNCC continued to hold 330 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 5: on to the ICNCC as a kind of platform and 331 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 5: umbrella organization for the people in Chin State that didn't 332 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 5: want to subscribe to this new path, and then Chin 333 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 5: Brotherhood was formed as the new practical military alliance of 334 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 5: those people who remained, we can say, and since then, 335 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 5: in only one year, I mean, both sides have have 336 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 5: had very incredible victories. No, Chinlein Council has been able 337 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 5: to in the north of Chin State liberate Chika and 338 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 5: Tunzong Town, and then of course in the south of 339 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 5: Chin State, Chindler has been able to take Matupe and 340 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 5: Contellette and Mindot. So definitely victories all around. 341 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 3: But yeah, I'll. 342 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 4: Stop myself before I comment too much more on that. Yeah, 343 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 4: but victories, it would have been unimaginable. 344 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 3: Three years. 345 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 4: I mean we're almost exactly three years from the beginning 346 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 4: of the revolution. Four years guy, yeah, twenty twenty five, god, yeah, yeah, 347 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 4: four years from the beginning of the revolution when, as 348 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 4: you say, like those videos, that was when I first 349 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 4: became aware of the post coup resistance, was seeing videos 350 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 4: online of people with those traditional muzzle loading hunting rifles 351 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 4: but taking on police checkpoints or attempted to organizer arm resistance, 352 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 4: and those little air guns with the made of the 353 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 4: blue plumbing pipe, like they it was incredible, like the 354 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 4: bravery of the people and their commitment and their willingness 355 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 4: to risk their lives and sometimes lose their lives because 356 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 4: like as one revolutionary doctor told me a few years ago, 357 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,719 Speaker 4: he said, like, my grandparents died for democracy, and my parents' 358 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 4: generation died for it, and we don't think another generation 359 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 4: should have to die for it, So like we're all 360 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 4: prepared to go down fighting for this, which I thought, 361 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 4: you know, was really impactful. And then he was right 362 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 4: that their willingness to risk their lives and to be 363 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 4: so brave is unparalleled, and the revolution wouldn't have got 364 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 4: to where it's got to. But it's such a beautiful 365 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 4: thing that it has. I wonder like it's a crucial 366 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 4: time for the revolution now right, like the revolution is 367 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,400 Speaker 4: as successful it's ever been. We're reaching the fifth year. 368 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 4: Can you explain like the role of the AIF within 369 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,360 Speaker 4: the broader revolution, because I think people get really confused 370 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 4: by all the acronyms, and it can be easy to 371 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 4: think that these groups and it's an alphabet stup right, 372 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 4: I'm writing a book about this and Spain, and like 373 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 4: I've spent most of the last week just trying to 374 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,360 Speaker 4: write the dictionary of acronyms that goes in the back 375 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 4: of the book. But like, can you explain that these 376 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 4: aren't groups that are necessarily sometimes they are opposed to 377 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 4: each other, they have different visions for the future. But 378 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 4: can you explain the role of the AF within the 379 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 4: broad anti hunter movement. 380 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 7: Sure? 381 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 5: First, I'll say, I'm reading a book right now about 382 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 5: like the history of the communist part of the in Burma, 383 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 5: and that history goes from like of the thirties all 384 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 5: the way to the nineties, and every single page has 385 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 5: at least ten different acronyms, and it's absolutely insane. 386 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 6: Yeah. 387 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah. 388 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 5: About the AIF, the Anti Fascist Internationalist Front, which I'm 389 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 5: hoping everyone just recognizes as AIF because it's kind of 390 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 5: a mouthful. Our perspective so far has been that especially 391 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 5: as foreigners, especially as like foreign foreigners, you know, like 392 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 5: Western foreigners. 393 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, we really want. 394 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 5: To avoid as much as possible the perception of we're 395 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 5: coming here, you know, we've got military experience, or we've 396 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,159 Speaker 5: got this knowledge, or we've got that knowledge, and now 397 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 5: it's time. Now it's time for us to tell you 398 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:37,679 Speaker 5: what to do. Or now it's time for us to 399 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,239 Speaker 5: train or something like that. Yeah, I would say our 400 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 5: perspective is much more closer to the perspective of the 401 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 5: you know, the international structures in Rajava. Our goal is 402 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 5: recognizing that this enemy, the SASC dictatorship, the SAC junta, 403 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 5: is fundamentally a fascist, anti human enemy. That makes it 404 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 5: also our struggle, and so not in some kind of 405 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 5: like prison way, or not in some kind of like 406 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 5: imposing way, but in a very genuine and organic manner. 407 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 5: We want to come here and implement ourselves into the revolution. Now, 408 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 5: we have some friends who are coming who maybe have 409 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 5: previous experience with this or with that, and in their capacity, 410 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 5: of course they give training. Because the people here have 411 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 5: the comrades, have been overwhelmingly receptive to training like this. 412 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 5: You know that there's been no pride or no like, oh, 413 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 5: we don't need the help. 414 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 6: Yeah. 415 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 5: Quite contrarily, everyone at all stages, even the nug is 416 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 5: saying I'm not talking about us, I'm just talking about publicly, 417 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 5: you know, to everyone is saying, whatever help we can get, 418 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 5: we appreciate it. 419 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:37,360 Speaker 6: Yeah. 420 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,640 Speaker 5: But you know, we're not just bringing people who are 421 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 5: you know Rajava veterans or veterans of some conflict where 422 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 5: they can come and give training. Fundamentally, it's an anti 423 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 5: fascist conflict, which means even people without experience are able 424 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 5: to come and not only participate in the revolution, but 425 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 5: in a less transactory way, not to say like, oh, 426 00:21:57,800 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 5: I have something and I will give it to the revolution. 427 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 5: In the most important way is to come and to 428 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 5: learn from the revolution. 429 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 3: Exactly as you said. 430 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 5: Even a revolution like Rojava, which has decades and decades 431 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 5: of history and tradition and culture and ideology and is 432 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 5: steeped in this yeah, I would say, you know, one 433 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 5: of the most powerful, prominent revolutions of our time, Yeah, 434 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 5: is still able to say a revolution like this, of 435 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 5: course we can learn from it. We need to learn 436 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 5: from the struggles of our comrades there, We need to 437 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 5: learn from the developments happening in this revolution. Our perspective 438 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 5: in AIF is very much the same where yeah, okay, 439 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 5: maybe we have some limited material things we can contribute, 440 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 5: but ultimately it's about organically participating in this revolution which 441 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 5: is against fascism, and in our own ways to take 442 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 5: the lessons of this revolution, to take the fundamental meaning 443 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 5: of this revolution and be able to translate it for 444 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 5: ourselves and for of course the future works. 445 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 3: Which are ahead of us. 446 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 4: Shall we say, Yeah, I remember as much much younger 447 00:22:55,680 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 4: talking to veteran of the International Group, an anarchist veteran. No, 448 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 4: it's from the International Brigade to correct myself, and I 449 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 4: have him to explain anti fascism to me, and he 450 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 4: said that for him, like when someone devalues humanity like 451 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 4: the hunter does in Burma, Francoist did in Spain, right, 452 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 4: like I did in Syria, it debases his own humanity, 453 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 4: and like anyone who attacks humanity in that way is 454 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 4: attacking him and all humanity, And therefore it's the responsibility 455 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 4: of all humanity to defend humanity, to defend compassion in kindness. Absolutely. Yeah, 456 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 4: I think what you're doing in Myanmar is part of 457 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 4: that desire to defend humanity against inhumanity, against whatever we 458 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 4: want to call it. What are the struggles that the 459 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 4: revolution faces, Like I know you guys have recently been 460 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 4: doing a fundraising campaign, for example, and the revolution is 461 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 4: almost unique and its complete lack of solidarity from the 462 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 4: states of the world. Right, there is not a state 463 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 4: that is backing this revolution. It is entirely the force 464 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 4: of the people of Meamba. So can you explain some 465 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 4: of the struggles within the revolution perhaps because of that. 466 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean as much as some people you know, 467 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 5: like to say CIA or something like this, of course, 468 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 5: the reality is that, you know, I've heard the term 469 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 5: crowdfunded revolution. 470 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 3: I think it's incredibly accurate. 471 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 5: Yeah, because no, in the af we recently did a 472 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,239 Speaker 5: fundraiser for vehicles and equipment and things like this, but 473 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 5: that's on our scale. On the scale of these organizations, 474 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 5: I mean, they are fundraising from the diaspora millions and 475 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 5: millions of dollars to be able to wage this resistance. 476 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 5: And of course even like local people who themselves maybe 477 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 5: don't have a lot, are giving everything they can or 478 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 5: or any way acting any way they can, or doing 479 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 5: anything they can to. 480 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 3: Help the revolution. 481 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 5: So we can say overwhelmingly it is a popular resistance, 482 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:53,959 Speaker 5: even I would go so far as to say it 483 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 5: is fundamentally a people's resistance against the dictatorship. That of 484 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 5: course represents itself in a lot of different organizations. But 485 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 5: these organizations enjoy the like ninety five percent support of 486 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,880 Speaker 5: the people against the junta, you know. Yeah, So yeah, 487 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 5: in that regard, the challenge, of course, is always resources 488 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 5: and always the strength of the enemy. No, we're still 489 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 5: going up against jet fighters, helicopters, mortars, artillery. Yeah, you know, 490 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 5: they have a lot of AMMO. 491 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 3: Us not so much. So there's like lots of these 492 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 3: practical problems. 493 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 5: I think the how can we say cynical kind of 494 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 5: as you mentioned earlier, Western outlook has been to paint 495 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 5: this struggle kind of in Oh, it's a tribal struggle. 496 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 5: There's all these different groups, they're all fighting for their 497 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 5: own area. What's going to happen after they win? Now 498 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 5: I disagree with that assessment obviously. I think you know 499 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 5: yourself as you're familiar with the conflict. I think it's 500 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 5: much deeper than that, And even across these many different 501 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 5: identities and cultures, there's very deep, very real coordination in 502 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 5: cooperation where I don't think it's just like chaotic. But 503 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 5: on the other hand, that is a you know, not 504 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 5: to give the the cynic's credit. That is a question 505 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 5: which going forward will politically very much be on the 506 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 5: AGENTA because I mean, now, as you're seeing, most of 507 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 5: the country is no longer in the junta's control, and 508 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 5: the parts that are in the junta's control are contested, 509 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 5: and then you have the tiny sliver of land which 510 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,360 Speaker 5: they can say they somehow without any kind of you know, 511 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,439 Speaker 5: contestion control. So very soon the onus will be on 512 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 5: revolutionary forces to answer that question. Okay, how are we 513 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 5: going to consolidate? How are we going to transfer these 514 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 5: winds on the battlefield into something that is more permanent 515 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 5: and more lasting. And I think you know already as 516 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 5: you're seeing in Chinn State that I can speak of 517 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 5: and that people are seeing and elsewhere that I can't 518 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 5: speak of because I don't know. There are definitely frictions. 519 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 5: You know, I'm not going to say it's perfect. Everyone 520 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 5: is smiling, everyone is working together, and there's frictions that 521 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 5: will have to be worked through. But fundamentally, I think 522 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 5: the trajectory as it currently is is positive for the resistance. 523 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 5: We can say, yeah, definitely. 524 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 4: I was talking to someone yeah, yes, today in another 525 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 4: part of me Emma, and I was saying, you know, 526 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 4: I'm going to come visit you hopefully soon, and he 527 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 4: was saying, like, oh, you'll have it. Like just to 528 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 4: be in the liberated zone is so special. Talk to 529 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,399 Speaker 4: us about like liberated chin Land, right min Dat's just 530 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 4: been liberated. Large areas have been under the control of 531 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 4: semi control of a dictatorial regime that has been extremely 532 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 4: oppressive to the Chin people for decades. Like how are 533 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 4: people receiving their liberty? How are they governing themselves or 534 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 4: attempting to take care of one another in these liberated spaces? 535 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 5: Sure well, I think the first thing I'll say is 536 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 5: maybe to contrast to other parts of meanwhile, we've been 537 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 5: relatively lucky in Chin State, and that even you know, 538 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 5: for some years already the junta, due to the mountainous 539 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 5: nature of Chin State, has anyway, been reduced to the 540 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 5: cities for years, like all of their checkpoints, all of 541 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,640 Speaker 5: their like external places. The last of those were cleared 542 00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 5: in twenty twenty three, and most of them anyway in 543 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 5: twenty twenty two were gone. So by land mass, even 544 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 5: before these towns were seized, the junta controlled if you 545 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 5: were to add up all of the area that they 546 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,719 Speaker 5: actually physically control in Chin State, maybe a couple square kilometers, 547 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 5: you know, just the area of like their bases and 548 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 5: something like that. So because of the nature of Chinn State, 549 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 5: they never had the of course they did these atrocities 550 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 5: and massacres and things like this, but on the kind 551 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 5: of like you know, fascist dictatorship level of oppression. Since 552 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,360 Speaker 5: after the revolution they had not really had the opportunity 553 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,360 Speaker 5: to impose themselves too much. They were the ones kind 554 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 5: of cowering in their corner. Yeah, but I think especially 555 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 5: after these towns are being seized now, you know, take Ricodar, 556 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 5: which is the border town on India, or take Mindatom 557 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,479 Speaker 5: or Tupi. These towns that have just been recently seized. 558 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 5: These are towns which people are wanting to live their lives. 559 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 5: I mean, Chin State has always been autonomous even in 560 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 5: British rule, in colonial rule, it was just labeled as unadministered, 561 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 5: you know, and there was a very rich democrat tradition 562 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 5: or how can we say, maybe not democratic in the 563 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 5: traditional sense, but tradition of self rule and autonomy in 564 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 5: Chin State, and the removal of the junta from these 565 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 5: areas is allowing those relationships to much more naturally flourish. 566 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 5: And I think the aspiration of a lot of people 567 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 5: both abroad as well as internally displaced from Chin State 568 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 5: is to return to those places where there's been fighting 569 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 5: and to continue their lives as normal, which I think 570 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 5: finally now that not just in Chin State, but all 571 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 5: over the country, we're slowly seeing these alternative systems of 572 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 5: you know, let's not call them like communist or revolutionary 573 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 5: or anything, but fundamentally they are alternative to the state 574 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 5: administration system. 575 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think that narrativit you pushed back on 576 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 4: already that like, and we've seen it from so many 577 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 4: every think tank, every analyst, ever, every so called expert 578 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 4: has said the eros will only fight for their territory. 579 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 4: When they've reached the limits to what they consider to 580 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 4: be their like ethnic homeland, they will stop. And that 581 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 4: hasn't happened, right, It's not happened anywa where. But the 582 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 4: fact that even if it did, right, or even if 583 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 4: some of these e ros have visions for the future 584 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 4: which is not as liberatory as maybe you and I 585 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 4: would like the fact that there are parts of Bamma 586 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 4: that are free now and that where people can live 587 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,239 Speaker 4: their lives as they wish will never change, and that 588 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 4: will mean that those places are always there for people 589 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 4: to go to. And like, I'm sure lots of people 590 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 4: you're fighting with and alongside have come to Chinland, right like, like, 591 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 4: not all of them will be would have spent their 592 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 4: whole lives. Yet they'll have come there from but my 593 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 4: majority cities maybe is that correct? 594 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 5: Look like not to give any specifics, so I'll just 595 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 5: make a very broad term to exaggerate the fact. You 596 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 5: can say that I have met somebody from almost every 597 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 5: single group in me more Inchinsta. 598 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 6: Yeah. 599 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 5: Now that's just to say. That's not to like, you know, 600 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 5: be shocking or something. That's just to highlight the level 601 00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 5: of interconnectedness logistically, materially, militarily, you know, even if it's 602 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 5: just someone sending someone to say. 603 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 3: Hi from somewhere. 604 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 6: You know. 605 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's not like, oh, everyone's in their corners fighting. 606 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 5: I mean, I promise you there are soldiers here which 607 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 5: are giving their lives for the towns and Chin State, 608 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 5: which maybe they never even thought about Chinn State before 609 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 5: this revolution. 610 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 3: You know, they're coming from opposite sides of the country. 611 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 6: Yeah. 612 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 5: Absolutely, it's fundamentally a fight against the dictatorship. It's not 613 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 5: the fight to liberate Chinland or to liberate Kadenny or 614 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 5: something like this. 615 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 4: Yeah. I remember speaking to Mandoalate pdf a while ago, 616 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 4: and they were saying to me like they were really 617 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,479 Speaker 4: scared when they first left the cities because they've been 618 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 4: told that like wild people lived in the mountains. Yes, yeah, 619 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 4: at that now we're wild people. We like the wild 620 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 4: people like. But yeah, this narrative, I mean, James C. 621 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 4: Scott talks about this right in the art of not 622 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 4: being governed, this idea that these mountains were never really 623 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 4: places that are amenable to state control and that now 624 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 4: there are places where people can go to avoid it. 625 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 3: But it's also important that this revolution. 626 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 4: Extends to beyond the mountains and into the cities and 627 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 4: that people living there don't have to live under the 628 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 4: boot heel of dictatorial state, which is what's happening right. 629 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. 630 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 4: People will be listening to this, I'm sure and like 631 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 4: thinking this is laudable, this is incredible, and a they'll 632 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 4: be shocked that they haven't heard about this, maybe especially 633 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 4: the newer listeners. And I do want to say that, 634 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 4: like you can go back and listen to our other 635 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 4: coverage on MEMA. 636 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 3: There is a lot. 637 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 4: But like in terms of conflicts, right, conflict is always 638 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 4: messy and war is never inherently a beautiful thing. Beautiful 639 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 4: things can happen, it was, but we rarely see wars 640 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 4: where there is so much good on one side and 641 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 4: so much evil on the other. And why do you 642 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 4: think that the especially the Western media has largely overlooked 643 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 4: the conflict in Mema. 644 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 3: It's a good question. 645 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, I will say, just on a very base level, 646 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 5: without getting into any kind of like you know, pondering 647 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 5: or something like that. I've spoken with a few journalists 648 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 5: and you know, before anything, before we even talk about 649 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 5: politics or something, there is just the material calculation that 650 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 5: these outlets are making. From what I understand from what 651 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 5: I have heard, people don't care. Now that's really unfortunate. 652 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 5: But like these like big networks, you know, CNN, whatever, Yeah, 653 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 5: I have to make the calculation of the people they 654 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 5: send and the risks to send them, and the actual 655 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 5: exposure that these news articles will get. 656 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 3: From what I. 657 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 5: Understand conversations that I've had with some people that are 658 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 5: you know, involved in these networks. Right now, there is 659 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 5: not on like the executive board level. There's just not 660 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 5: a lot of push to cover me in market and 661 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 5: that's you know, that's really unfortunate. And I think one 662 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 5: really bad side effect of that is whenever there's a tragedy, 663 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 5: the media is there. Yeah, you know, like whenever there's 664 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 5: some massacre, or whenever there's some you know, intertribal conflict, 665 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 5: or whenever there's something bad to report about, or maybe 666 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 5: you know, on a good day, they're really big, like 667 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 5: a win like in last year that we saw, you know, yeah, okay, yeah, 668 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 5: for these big things that Western media will be there. 669 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 5: But I think even from recording these very like click 670 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 5: baity eye catching things, it seems like they're not getting 671 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 5: the exposure that they want to get out of this content, 672 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 5: which is putting them off of covering the you know, 673 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 5: in our opinion, much more meaningful wall to wall content. 674 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 3: That exists, I mean every day in me and Mark. 675 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, it seems like this Western eye is only interested 676 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,839 Speaker 5: in the suffering, we can say, which is really unfortunate. 677 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,760 Speaker 5: But you know, even if the media is not paying attention, 678 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 5: we can say, for better or worse, the governments are 679 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,800 Speaker 5: paying attention absolutely, I mean almost like hawks. 680 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 3: You can say. 681 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 5: There are every single regional government as well as foreign 682 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 5: governments of course, keeping a very close eye on the situation, 683 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 5: circling looking at developments, I mean China especially no being 684 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 5: being very. 685 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:46,760 Speaker 3: Involved in the process. 686 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:47,359 Speaker 6: Yeah. 687 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 5: So yeah, Well, unfortunately, the kind of liberal media eye 688 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 5: is not so much you know, giving me and more 689 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 5: the coverage that it deserves as a popular revolution. The 690 00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 5: powers at b are definitely watching its progression, we can. 691 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:01,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, definitely. 692 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 4: I mean it offers an alternative for the world that 693 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,319 Speaker 4: like it's distinct even from Java, like the building of 694 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 4: a revolutionary movement, like you said, the crowdfunded revolution, the 695 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 4: revolution that like entirely I mean at points armed itself 696 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 4: using guns, it downloaded off the internet. You know, it 697 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 4: offers sometimes I think when I'm thinking about, you know, 698 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 4: my background in studying anarchists in Spain, and like obviously 699 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 4: I've looked a lot at the past, but it gives 700 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,760 Speaker 4: me a vision of the future, like and it's only 701 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 4: in covering the small parts of the revolution that make 702 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 4: it truly a revolution that we can see that. Like 703 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,720 Speaker 4: you have an Instagram and on there you're posting about 704 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 4: training sometimes when you're doing the trainings and there are 705 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 4: women who are coming to train, you know, with rifles 706 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 4: to be I was gonna say, Marx, Marx people, I 707 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 4: guess like people. 708 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, on the US military, guys are weird about calling 709 00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 5: things snipers. 710 00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, there're snipers. 711 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, Okay, Yeah, let's do that, Okay, in the moment 712 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 4: that they receive that training and become like efficient with 713 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 4: their weapons, like a revolution happens for that woman. And 714 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 4: it's only through like following those those little revolutions that 715 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 4: happen every day that make up a big revolution that 716 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 4: we truly understand it. And I'm sure that's something that 717 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 4: like you're seeing on a daily or weekly basis, right, 718 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 4: like people's world's opening up and their horizons changing because 719 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:30,280 Speaker 4: of the revolution. 720 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 5: Well, listen absolutely now, of course, you know, as as 721 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,439 Speaker 5: leftists involved or interested in this revolution studying it, whether 722 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 5: you're a socialist, whether you're anarchists, whether you're a communist, 723 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 5: whether you're upper wist. You know, however you like to 724 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,920 Speaker 5: describe yourself whatever flavor you are, you know, without pontificating 725 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 5: too much. I think fundamentally this revolution is a symbol 726 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,439 Speaker 5: of hope that it can be done. No, Like, I'll 727 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 5: give an example from the conversations that I've had with 728 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 5: the comrades that have been involved in this revolution since 729 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,959 Speaker 5: it was just a protest movement in the street. One 730 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 5: thing that I've heard a lot is that at the 731 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,359 Speaker 5: beginning of the revolution, when it switched, you know, when 732 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 5: the police were fining blows into the crowds, and when 733 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 5: people made this decision that Okay, now we have no 734 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 5: choice but armed resistance. We have no choice but to 735 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 5: fight the dictatorship. When that calculus was made, when that 736 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,840 Speaker 5: decision was made, it was not made based on the 737 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 5: kind of analysis of the situation that they could even win. Yeah, 738 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 5: it was not even that like, Okay, we're going to 739 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 5: do this and we have this strategy of guerrilla war, 740 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 5: and then we'll do this, this and this, and then 741 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 5: we'll achieve the victory. The calculation that was made was 742 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,240 Speaker 5: a moral calculation. It was saying, we have the choice. 743 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,280 Speaker 5: We can go back to our life. We can accept 744 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 5: this oppression, we can give up this struggle for democracy 745 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 5: that we've been waging in one form or another, or 746 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:46,839 Speaker 5: we can make the decision to fight even if we 747 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 5: won't win. It's the moral imperative to resist dictatorship. And 748 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 5: I think what this revolution is showing not just for 749 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:58,840 Speaker 5: the people who themselves were surprised at their capability and 750 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,719 Speaker 5: we're themselves surprised at what they could accomplish when they 751 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:06,320 Speaker 5: actually stepped up and fought and sacrificed for revolution. Fundamentally, 752 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 5: it's a message to everyone. It says, look, these people 753 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 5: at the beginning were going at checkpoints with like double 754 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,359 Speaker 5: barrels and air rifles, and at the end, now they 755 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,319 Speaker 5: are like threatening to overthrow what was previously assumed to 756 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,280 Speaker 5: be one of the most powerful militaries in Southeastern Asia. 757 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 3: I mean, now, like everyone. 758 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 5: Jokes on the top of dow because they're obviously garbage now, 759 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:28,840 Speaker 5: But like at the time, that wasn't That wasn't the analysis. 760 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:30,440 Speaker 5: You know, it would be the same as saying like, oh, 761 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:32,959 Speaker 5: you know, we're going to overthrow the USA or something 762 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 5: like that. It was fundamentally people didn't even envision the victory, 763 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 5: but on the moral principle to resist, they've resisted and 764 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 5: from that moral position they were able to materialize the 765 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:46,760 Speaker 5: victory that they had. 766 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 3: Previously not even imagined. So, you know, for me, that's 767 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:50,800 Speaker 3: what I take away. 768 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 5: There's no books, there's no ideological books here that you 769 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 5: can study and understand the underpinnings of the revolution. You know, 770 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 5: there's no classes that you can go to that the 771 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 5: PDF teaches you about what their revolutionary paradigm is. Fundamentally, 772 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 5: it's a fight of the people against oppression and against 773 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 5: the dictatorship, and while of course there's some strengths and 774 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 5: some weaknesses that we face in the revolution, ultimately in 775 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 5: the same way as Rajaba, in the same place as 776 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 5: other places in the world, it's a beacon of hope 777 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 5: for democratic people who envision themselves fighting on the side 778 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 5: of freedom and the symbol that actually, yeah, you can win. 779 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,839 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's given me so much hope, Like at a 780 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,520 Speaker 4: time the last few years when we've all desperately needed 781 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,960 Speaker 4: something good to happen, Like something good is happening and 782 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:33,839 Speaker 4: incredibly good through them. 783 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, Like it's breathtaking. 784 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,439 Speaker 4: Like I went in twenty twenty two during the first 785 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 4: year of the revolution, and I was shopping around this 786 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,799 Speaker 4: story for months, right, I knew these guys who were 787 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 4: doing the three D printing, and I went to every 788 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,879 Speaker 4: major outlet. I was like, this is the story that's 789 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,440 Speaker 4: going to make people care, and no one bought it 790 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 4: until eventually Cool Zone did and here I am. But 791 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,239 Speaker 4: like even twenty twenty one twenty two, talking to those guys, 792 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 4: I was like, they might all die. It's still been 793 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 4: worth it for them, but they might all be gone 794 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,719 Speaker 4: in a year. Unfortunately, familiar with that from my line 795 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,799 Speaker 4: of work, but like to see it succeed, it's so 796 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,879 Speaker 4: like incredible. It's obviously war is terrible, and terrible things 797 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:16,960 Speaker 4: have happened in the war, but like it's such a 798 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:21,719 Speaker 4: beautiful thing to see people refuse to accept tyranny and 799 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:27,239 Speaker 4: just through the tenacity of their refusal to create liberated 800 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 4: spaces and to now threwn to topple like you say, 801 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 4: one of what had previously been a feared army in 802 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,319 Speaker 4: the region. Like it continues to amaze me every day, 803 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,800 Speaker 4: every every time I see people dancing in front of 804 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,840 Speaker 4: a captured military headquarters or I don't know, it's just 805 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:47,359 Speaker 4: such a such a remarkable revolution. Is that if people 806 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 4: wish to be in solidarity, if they wish to follow 807 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,319 Speaker 4: the aif if they want to learn more about the 808 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,799 Speaker 4: af where can they do that? Are their places online 809 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 4: or are there ways that they can support you aside 810 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 4: from obviously like being part of the struggle, Like how 811 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:02,840 Speaker 4: can they help you? 812 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 6: Yeah? 813 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,279 Speaker 5: Me personally, my information platform is mostly on Instagram, where 814 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,279 Speaker 5: I post updates about you know, either insights about what's 815 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 5: going on or news updates or something like that. 816 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,839 Speaker 3: And that's a zod underscore AFA on instagraram spat out 817 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 3: aside to fit the known courage speakers. 818 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:22,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, azad a z a d IF you will, Yeah, 819 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 5: Thanky underscore AFA on Instagram. The AIF also has an 820 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:28,840 Speaker 5: Instagram for like official posts. 821 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 3: It's AIF me and more in. 822 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 5: General about the AIF, especially at this early stages. Right now, 823 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,719 Speaker 5: we're involved in some frontlines in Western meanmore and so 824 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,520 Speaker 5: because of that, we don't really have a lot of 825 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,439 Speaker 5: information presence out right now, but in the coming weeks, 826 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 5: in the coming months, definitely when things get published, when 827 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:47,799 Speaker 5: more things like that come out, they will come out 828 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 5: from kind of the existing distribution circles that have been 829 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,960 Speaker 5: going around, like libcom. There has been like statements going 830 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 5: out as well as Instagram perr things like that. Yeah, 831 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 5: and recently we just completed a fundraiser. Our goal was 832 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,360 Speaker 5: ten thousand dollars for the vehicles and the equipment that 833 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 5: we will needed to get started. 834 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:05,919 Speaker 9: Yeah. 835 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,720 Speaker 5: For listeners who don't know, maybe yeah, maybe they're not aware. 836 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,439 Speaker 5: This only started in October of last year, so we're 837 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:15,960 Speaker 5: still in the stages of consolidating and getting our equipment. 838 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:18,479 Speaker 5: We set the goal for ten thousand dollars and we 839 00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 5: exceeded it. We raised over thirteen thousand dollars for that nice, 840 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,239 Speaker 5: so yeah, we're very happy to say that. But in 841 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:26,720 Speaker 5: the future, of course, there will always be more opportunities. 842 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,200 Speaker 5: As you know, revolution is very expensive. So yeah, on 843 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,840 Speaker 5: all fundraising platforms we have PayPal, cash app and venmo 844 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,279 Speaker 5: and all of those are aif me and more. And yeah, 845 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,919 Speaker 5: in the future, hopefully we will have more news both 846 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,120 Speaker 5: about what's happening in me and more are both how 847 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:47,040 Speaker 5: we specifically are involved, as well as just very exciting 848 00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 5: footage we can say we hope to share soon. 849 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:51,839 Speaker 4: Yeah, that'll be great to see and I hope you'll 850 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:53,279 Speaker 4: come back and join us again, and maybe we can 851 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:54,920 Speaker 4: delve into a little bit more of the history of 852 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,279 Speaker 4: the revolution and the revolution in chin Land specifically, because 853 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,880 Speaker 4: I think these are things that that we need to 854 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 4: cover more and I'd love to give people a place. 855 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 8: To learn about them. 856 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:05,960 Speaker 10: Yeah, absolutely great, Thank you. 857 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:28,640 Speaker 11: So much, Hello, and welcome back to it could happen here. 858 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,480 Speaker 11: I am once again your occasional host, Molly Conker, and 859 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,279 Speaker 11: I am joined today by Spencer Sunshine, the author of 860 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:39,160 Speaker 11: Neo Nazi Terrorism and Countercultural Fascism, The Origins and Afterlife 861 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:43,920 Speaker 11: of James Mason's Siege. It's available now in paperback. I 862 00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 11: have my paperback copy from Routledge Press. So Spencer, I 863 00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,920 Speaker 11: guess let's get right into it. What is Siege and 864 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:52,839 Speaker 11: why should we still be talking about it? 865 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 12: Well, unfortunately, we should still be talking about it because 866 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,360 Speaker 12: it's still influential. It was a book originally published in 867 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,360 Speaker 12: nineteen ninety three, but that is an edited version of 868 00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,240 Speaker 12: newsletters published in the eighties by a fellow named James Mason, 869 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,680 Speaker 12: who is a lifelong neo Nazi. He joined the American 870 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,840 Speaker 12: Nazi Party at age fourteen in nineteen sixty six. He 871 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:18,160 Speaker 12: is still an active ideological believer in national socialism. It's 872 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,319 Speaker 12: a book that in it he makes the argument that 873 00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:26,480 Speaker 12: any kind of normal legal political activity was pointless for 874 00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:31,160 Speaker 12: Neo Nazis to engage in and like forming organizations, holding marches, 875 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,680 Speaker 12: making the traditional propaganda, trying to build up parties, even 876 00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,000 Speaker 12: guerrilla warfare. At the end of it, he becomes very 877 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:41,799 Speaker 12: cynical about and he says through what are essentially dramatic 878 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,839 Speaker 12: random acts of violence, of terrorism or murder. He even 879 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 12: goes into praising serial killers like Joseph Paul Franklin, we 880 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:54,560 Speaker 12: can destabilize the government and society and after this neo 881 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:58,319 Speaker 12: Nazis can come to power. This has become a very 882 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 12: influential idea. More recent he was rediscovered. It was a 883 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,560 Speaker 12: pretty obscure The newsletters were very unpopular that he never 884 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,839 Speaker 12: made more than one hundred copies. The original book had 885 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,719 Speaker 12: a print run of one thousand, so it was a 886 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:14,960 Speaker 12: sort of obscure text. It was known amongst neo Nazi 887 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,400 Speaker 12: circles for some unusual reasons. It became mixed up with 888 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,480 Speaker 12: some countercultural figures and that was actually what made it 889 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,440 Speaker 12: more well known. But it was revived in twenty fifteen. 890 00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:28,080 Speaker 12: It was found by these younger aspiring terrorists, let's say 891 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,920 Speaker 12: at the time, around a message board called Iron March. 892 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:35,040 Speaker 12: It became the bible of the Atom Offen Division, this 893 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,920 Speaker 12: neo Nazi group that its members and associates killed five people, 894 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:41,840 Speaker 12: and out of that everyone in the Adam off And 895 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:45,560 Speaker 12: division had to read Siege, which became the hashtag, and 896 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,800 Speaker 12: out of that grew this whole sort of network, first 897 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:53,280 Speaker 12: of groups and now really totally decentralized, like propaganda channels 898 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:57,359 Speaker 12: on telegram to terogram promoting these same ideas, and so 899 00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,440 Speaker 12: it's become very influential today. It gets named in like 900 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:05,360 Speaker 12: terrorist manifestos. The school shooter, I think it was in Nashville, 901 00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:09,959 Speaker 12: Tennessee that just happened. He makes a reference to people 902 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:13,719 Speaker 12: who are into siege in his writings, and more and 903 00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,800 Speaker 12: more I've documented before him at least twelve murders or 904 00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,080 Speaker 12: either by the amount Adam Waffin Division, by people inspired 905 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,840 Speaker 12: by siege culture, or by people directly linked to terogram. 906 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,640 Speaker 12: So if we want to look at the main text 907 00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,000 Speaker 12: animating neo Nazi terrorism today, which has now spread around 908 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,000 Speaker 12: the glow of those groups in Latin America, there's groups 909 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,480 Speaker 12: in eastern Western Europe. It's even influencing groups in the 910 00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:37,160 Speaker 12: Middle East or people in the Middle East. They're called accelerationists. 911 00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,319 Speaker 12: They want to accelerate the collapse of things. And if 912 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,440 Speaker 12: there's a single ideological text today that's influential on this scene, 913 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 12: it is by easily James Mason Siege. 914 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,279 Speaker 11: And what I particularly am enjoying about the book I 915 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,160 Speaker 11: just told you before we started recording, I haven't finished 916 00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:53,840 Speaker 11: it yet. What I'm enjoying about this book is so 917 00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,880 Speaker 11: you know, you were saying that James Mason started writing 918 00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,480 Speaker 11: this in the eighties, right, but nobody was reading it. 919 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:02,520 Speaker 11: It was very sort of niche. It wasn't popular, even 920 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,160 Speaker 11: with it its own niche. He was not a popular man. 921 00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:07,080 Speaker 11: He had a lot of beefs with other leaders in 922 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,120 Speaker 11: the movement. It's rediscovered in the twenty tens. It's big 923 00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,800 Speaker 11: on Iron March. It's the animating force behind Adam Waffin, 924 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:14,880 Speaker 11: And so all of a sudden in the last ten years, 925 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,640 Speaker 11: people like us researchers of the far right, mainstream journalists, 926 00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:23,040 Speaker 11: people are talking about Siege, they're talking about Mason. But this, 927 00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:25,960 Speaker 11: I think, correct me if I'm wrong, is the only 928 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:27,600 Speaker 11: book sort of tracing it. 929 00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:28,919 Speaker 9: Back to its root. 930 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,520 Speaker 11: James Mason did not come into existence in twenty fifteen 931 00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:34,880 Speaker 11: on the pages of Iron March. Right, they sort of 932 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:38,000 Speaker 11: dug back up this writing that was at that point 933 00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,560 Speaker 11: thirty years old. But this book, I mean, it's an 934 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,839 Speaker 11: incredible work of research, but it's also sort of a picuresque, right. 935 00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 11: It follows James Mason through decades of Nazi history. Right, 936 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,600 Speaker 11: he wasn't just a guy who wrote a newsletter. He 937 00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:53,480 Speaker 11: was a guy who was in a lot of rooms. 938 00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:55,960 Speaker 11: He knew a lot of people. So through the lens 939 00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:00,319 Speaker 11: of James Mason's life, you can follow the orange of 940 00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:02,719 Speaker 11: the modern neo Nazi movement back to the sort of 941 00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:07,520 Speaker 11: splinters and sects and rival personalities of the seventies. Right 942 00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:12,000 Speaker 11: that you can't understand modern neo Nazi organizing if you 943 00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:14,320 Speaker 11: don't know the history that goes back to the sixties 944 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:15,320 Speaker 11: and seventies. 945 00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:17,960 Speaker 12: Well, thank you forgetting that. I had someone write a 946 00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,080 Speaker 12: review and it was an interesting view from the viewpoint 947 00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:21,960 Speaker 12: of literary criticism. And he's like, well, this is one 948 00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:24,480 Speaker 12: of these books about a book it's not And I'm like, yeah, 949 00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,160 Speaker 12: it kind of is, but it's really and I started 950 00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,120 Speaker 12: after I started writing this which has an unusual origin, 951 00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:32,799 Speaker 12: or just maybe it is a usual origin, Like the 952 00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:36,000 Speaker 12: first half is about neo Nazism in the nineteen seventies, 953 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:39,640 Speaker 12: which is incredibly undocumented. There's a huge problem with a 954 00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:43,360 Speaker 12: documentation about the far right in general before twenty fifteen. 955 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:45,839 Speaker 12: Probably more books have come out in the last ten 956 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,680 Speaker 12: years about the far right in the US before twenty 957 00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,240 Speaker 12: fifteen than came out before, and certainly about neo Nazis, 958 00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:56,240 Speaker 12: who are almost always when they are written about American 959 00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:58,680 Speaker 12: neo Nazis. It's usually in a history of the white 960 00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:02,520 Speaker 12: supremacist movement, and there's no differentiation made between them, and 961 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:05,160 Speaker 12: I would say the National Socialists are quite different from 962 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,920 Speaker 12: other white supremacists for a variety of different reasons. So 963 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,720 Speaker 12: there is no book about Neo Nazism in the nineteen 964 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,359 Speaker 12: seventies in the US at all. There are only two 965 00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,160 Speaker 12: documents I can really name, and they're both written by 966 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:21,319 Speaker 12: National Socialists actually, one in Australia and one the head 967 00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,440 Speaker 12: of the New Order, which used to be the American 968 00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:25,640 Speaker 12: Nazi Party. It's actually not bad. It's an eight part 969 00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,279 Speaker 12: series by Martin Kirk. So the first half is really 970 00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:31,600 Speaker 12: reconstructing what happened in the nineteen seventies, because this is 971 00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,120 Speaker 12: what Siege is coming out of. This Siege is an 972 00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:37,279 Speaker 12: answer to the questions that faced neo Nazis in the 973 00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:39,760 Speaker 12: nineteen seventies. And then the second half of the book 974 00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:41,839 Speaker 12: is even I would say, less about Mason. It's about 975 00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:46,200 Speaker 12: these four countercultural figures who discover Mason, help publish him, 976 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,840 Speaker 12: and eventually published and disseminated Siege itself. 977 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:51,120 Speaker 10: And part of that is I. 978 00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:53,640 Speaker 12: Was just around the scene these people were part of 979 00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:55,879 Speaker 12: in the nineteen nineties. Like I saw one of them, 980 00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:59,400 Speaker 12: boyd Rice Play. I had many mutual friends with another, 981 00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:02,160 Speaker 12: the published Adam Parfrey of Farreal House. So like, I 982 00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:05,359 Speaker 12: was like right around what these people were doing as 983 00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,280 Speaker 12: part of the nineties counterculture. So I became very interested 984 00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:12,000 Speaker 12: in that because these people always denied their background, you know, 985 00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:14,759 Speaker 12: or s left it off or something. And I found 986 00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:17,480 Speaker 12: just so many smoking guns in this. And so I 987 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:21,160 Speaker 12: will say how this started is right after Charlottesville, they 988 00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:23,799 Speaker 12: Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville. Always you say these 989 00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:26,160 Speaker 12: things and then just you give the name of the thing, 990 00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:27,719 Speaker 12: and people are like, wait a minute, that's like where 991 00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,920 Speaker 12: I live. You know, we're more than that, you know, 992 00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:32,319 Speaker 12: I was in Seattle. I was like, oh, I was 993 00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:35,360 Speaker 12: at Seattle, referring to this nineteen ninety nine demonstration, and 994 00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:38,560 Speaker 12: I'm like, people are here, weren't even necessarily born then, 995 00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:42,400 Speaker 12: and just saying at Seattle doesn't mean anything. So after 996 00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:44,960 Speaker 12: Younite the Right, there was a spike in popularity in 997 00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:47,960 Speaker 12: Siege and the hashtag read siege because it looked like 998 00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:51,120 Speaker 12: the rally followed what he said, and he said, no 999 00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:54,440 Speaker 12: one in an American society will allow neo Nazis to succeed, 1000 00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:56,680 Speaker 12: and a lot of people don't know this, but what 1001 00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:00,279 Speaker 12: happened at the initial rally is that it wasn't the 1002 00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:03,360 Speaker 12: street fighting people might be familiar with, even that's dating 1003 00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:06,080 Speaker 12: from memory. Was before it was supposed to start, and 1004 00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:07,920 Speaker 12: when it was supposed to start at noon, the police, 1005 00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:10,640 Speaker 12: who had been standing a block away and letting everything unfold, 1006 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:14,440 Speaker 12: marched in and forced everyone out, meaning the rally never happened. 1007 00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:15,520 Speaker 9: Nobody ever gave a speech. 1008 00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,120 Speaker 12: Nobody gave a speech. As we know, the car attack 1009 00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,360 Speaker 12: happened like an hour or two later. I got to 1010 00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:25,360 Speaker 12: look at a timeline, it's all like garbled now right, Yeah, 1011 00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:28,360 Speaker 12: that sounds right. And the book is co dedicated to 1012 00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:31,239 Speaker 12: Heather Hair I just want to point out. So it 1013 00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:33,759 Speaker 12: seemed to coincide with what Mason said. He's like, you 1014 00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,560 Speaker 12: can't do legal work, you have to do a terrorism right, 1015 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,000 Speaker 12: And so there was a spike and interest in it, 1016 00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:41,719 Speaker 12: and Adam often had been doing more and more. Adam 1017 00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:45,319 Speaker 12: often people are committing murders, strange murders. They're all very 1018 00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:47,759 Speaker 12: strange murders, which I think speaks to a lot of 1019 00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:51,440 Speaker 12: the personalities who are involved in this and other forms 1020 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:55,120 Speaker 12: of violence, even in more structured political movements. I think 1021 00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:57,960 Speaker 12: it does attract tends to attract fringe people, except at 1022 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,640 Speaker 12: certain times where people are intentionally using it a strategy 1023 00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:02,400 Speaker 12: as part of a bigger mass move And anyway, these 1024 00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:05,200 Speaker 12: are questions for terrorism studies, and so there was a 1025 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:06,719 Speaker 12: spike of interest in it. So I was going to 1026 00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,600 Speaker 12: write a short article for a think tank I used 1027 00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:11,959 Speaker 12: to be associated with, which I will not name because 1028 00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:14,239 Speaker 12: I had such a bad experience with them, and it 1029 00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:15,759 Speaker 12: was going to be an article. I couldn't get the 1030 00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:19,400 Speaker 12: facts to line up. As I said, there's terrible scholarship 1031 00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:24,080 Speaker 12: about this period, and so I used this very sophisticated 1032 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,960 Speaker 12: research tool called Google, and through that I found that 1033 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,840 Speaker 12: Mason's papers There was a huge collection of Mason's papers 1034 00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:33,400 Speaker 12: at the University of Kansas and Lawrence, Kansas. So I 1035 00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:35,719 Speaker 12: decided I'd go there. I thought I'd just straighten these 1036 00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:38,400 Speaker 12: things out. There were some documents I needed, some very 1037 00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:39,960 Speaker 12: obscure fanzines and stuff. 1038 00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:41,200 Speaker 10: That'd be the end of the day. 1039 00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:43,640 Speaker 12: I got through. Well, first I discovered it's not easy 1040 00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:45,520 Speaker 12: to get to Lawrence, Kansas. You have to fly into 1041 00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:47,440 Speaker 12: an airport. And then I think I took an uber 1042 00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:48,280 Speaker 12: for like an hour. 1043 00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:49,600 Speaker 10: There was like one. 1044 00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,680 Speaker 12: Bus a day or something. Anyway, I got there and 1045 00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:55,520 Speaker 12: started poking at the papers. It was sixty boxes of 1046 00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:59,279 Speaker 12: his correspondence. He had letters incoming and outgoing since the 1047 00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:01,840 Speaker 12: early nineteenth sixties. As you mentioned, he was an insider 1048 00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:03,759 Speaker 12: to the neo Nazi movement, so it was with all 1049 00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:07,080 Speaker 12: these people he had kept carving copies of his outgoing letters. 1050 00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:09,840 Speaker 12: It was a unique slice of national socialist life. 1051 00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:12,080 Speaker 10: In the United States. Never seen an archive like it. 1052 00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:15,160 Speaker 12: People didn't keep their papers because they were doing illegal activities. 1053 00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:17,240 Speaker 12: The government sees them and has them in a warehouse 1054 00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,480 Speaker 12: somewhere or whatever. This is even in the pre Internet. 1055 00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:22,200 Speaker 12: I can only do this because it was pre Internet 1056 00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:25,120 Speaker 12: and there were paper copies of stuff, and of the 1057 00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:27,920 Speaker 12: age where I grew up doing all research on paper 1058 00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:31,879 Speaker 12: and in archives. And I quickly found out what I had. 1059 00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:33,840 Speaker 12: And there were two things. One, as I said, was 1060 00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:37,239 Speaker 12: that there was this whole story of American Neo Nazism, 1061 00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:40,120 Speaker 12: of when the American Nazi Party splinters then called the 1062 00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:43,680 Speaker 12: National Socialistory People's Party in the nineteen seventies, and all 1063 00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:45,480 Speaker 12: these groups come out of it, many of which we 1064 00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:48,960 Speaker 12: know parts of like William Peters who wrote to Turner diaries, 1065 00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:51,880 Speaker 12: and the Skoky incident which is parodied in The Blues Brothers. 1066 00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:53,520 Speaker 10: Some people don't know this just. 1067 00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:57,080 Speaker 12: So Paul Franklin shooting and paralyzing US publisher Larry Flint, 1068 00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:59,200 Speaker 12: and some other things. And I was like, Oh, these 1069 00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:01,440 Speaker 12: are all people who came out of one thing, a 1070 00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:04,400 Speaker 12: splintering of the party. And I realized that there basically 1071 00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:07,120 Speaker 12: was a terrorist wing that came out of the splintering. 1072 00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,279 Speaker 12: And people knew Mason and people knew Pierce, but there 1073 00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,200 Speaker 12: was like a couple other groups or people, but people 1074 00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:16,040 Speaker 12: didn't put it together that they were all like the 1075 00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:18,880 Speaker 12: most radical wing of these splinter groups. So there was 1076 00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:20,600 Speaker 12: that story, and then, as I mentioned, there was a 1077 00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:23,520 Speaker 12: second story about these countercultural people who had always denied 1078 00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:26,920 Speaker 12: that they were involved in national socialism or the level 1079 00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:29,160 Speaker 12: of it. It was just a joke, all these things 1080 00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:31,520 Speaker 12: that we hear today almost word for word. AND's how 1081 00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:33,600 Speaker 12: I found all their letters to James Mason, and they're 1082 00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:37,440 Speaker 12: adorned with swastikas and eight aids, and they're helping him. 1083 00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,239 Speaker 12: Had they reveal the extent that they helped him, and 1084 00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:42,400 Speaker 12: the funny thing is a lot of this stuff was 1085 00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:43,880 Speaker 12: actually available. 1086 00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:44,040 Speaker 10: And out in the open. 1087 00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:46,120 Speaker 12: It was in published books, but it was like little 1088 00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:49,600 Speaker 12: pieces of flakes of gold scattered around everything. I started 1089 00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,240 Speaker 12: picking them up because I realized you could put them together. 1090 00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:55,440 Speaker 12: And so one article turnout was supposed to be one article, 1091 00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:57,680 Speaker 12: and then it turns two articles. And I sat down 1092 00:54:57,680 --> 00:54:59,400 Speaker 12: to write it and turned into a book. And then 1093 00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:02,319 Speaker 12: five year years later I finally had the manuscript done. 1094 00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:04,960 Speaker 12: Then took another year at the publishers, and then it 1095 00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,560 Speaker 12: came out last year. So it's been seven years of work, 1096 00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:11,480 Speaker 12: and I've been going around doing talks. I did seventeen 1097 00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:14,160 Speaker 12: talks and support of the book, and as many podcasts 1098 00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:16,560 Speaker 12: and stuff. So I'm still the book is still part 1099 00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:18,400 Speaker 12: of my life, as much as I would like to 1100 00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:19,799 Speaker 12: sort of put it down. 1101 00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:21,640 Speaker 10: But thank you for having me on the podcast. This 1102 00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:23,640 Speaker 10: is not great that you have me on the podcast. 1103 00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:27,200 Speaker 10: Not against no diss against you, no shade, no shade no. 1104 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,080 Speaker 11: And I'm so I'm so jealous of your trip to 1105 00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:31,560 Speaker 11: Kansas to see the archives. 1106 00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:33,720 Speaker 9: I only recently. 1107 00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:36,400 Speaker 11: A year or two, discovered that his papers existed in 1108 00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:38,560 Speaker 11: those archives, and so I wrote to the archivist and 1109 00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:40,800 Speaker 11: I said, like, you know, are any of these digitized? 1110 00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:42,239 Speaker 11: I would love to see them. And they're like, you know, 1111 00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:44,400 Speaker 11: we've only digitized like one box. And they sent me 1112 00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:46,759 Speaker 11: a couple of a couple of scans, but most of 1113 00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:48,919 Speaker 11: it has not been digitized. So you have to go 1114 00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:52,560 Speaker 11: to Kansas if you want to read this old pedophile 1115 00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:54,600 Speaker 11: Nazis letters to Charles Manson. 1116 00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:57,560 Speaker 12: Well, I do have thousands of pictures I took of 1117 00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:01,000 Speaker 12: this correspondence. So yeah, if you were quest to digital copies, 1118 00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:03,480 Speaker 12: they won't tell you what they've digitized. And so it's 1119 00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:07,400 Speaker 12: like you know, trying to like randomly throw darts or something. 1120 00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:09,200 Speaker 12: If you get the right file they have them. 1121 00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:11,240 Speaker 9: And I was like, I was begging and pleading. 1122 00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:13,120 Speaker 11: I was like, please, just like any letters you have 1123 00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:15,120 Speaker 11: with Bob Heyite, I just I just want the Bob 1124 00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:15,840 Speaker 11: Hike letters. 1125 00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:18,840 Speaker 10: But I can give you the Bob Hyke letters. 1126 00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:19,680 Speaker 9: I would love those. 1127 00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,040 Speaker 10: I think they'll they'll digitize stuff for a price. 1128 00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,319 Speaker 11: Though, I'm sure I'm sure if I pay for it, 1129 00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:28,080 Speaker 11: they would do me the favor. But that's the thing 1130 00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:31,160 Speaker 11: is that there's so much interconnection here because these stories 1131 00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:35,399 Speaker 11: always get told episodically, right like the story of James 1132 00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:38,040 Speaker 11: Mason and Adam woffin the story of William Luther Peers, 1133 00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:40,320 Speaker 11: the story of the founding of the National Socialist movement. 1134 00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:44,400 Speaker 11: But nobody takes those pieces and slots them together because 1135 00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:48,560 Speaker 11: they interlock. They all interlock, right, And so this idea 1136 00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:50,800 Speaker 11: of the lone wolf, I mean, I guess James Mason's 1137 00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:54,800 Speaker 11: life's work is to perpetuate and motivate the lone wolf. 1138 00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:57,880 Speaker 11: But is it really a lone wolf if he's training them. 1139 00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:01,040 Speaker 12: Well, the lone wolf question is is a long question. 1140 00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:03,239 Speaker 12: A lot of people know Metzker moved to the lone 1141 00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:06,719 Speaker 12: wolf strategy after a war was sued by the SPLC 1142 00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:10,120 Speaker 12: and collapse, but Mason was advocating this beforehand and was 1143 00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:13,920 Speaker 12: very tight with Metzker. So there is actually a book 1144 00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:16,760 Speaker 12: describing what you've said, putting the pieces together, and it's 1145 00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:20,200 Speaker 12: called Neo Nazi Terrorism and Countercultural Fast exactly. It's the 1146 00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:21,720 Speaker 12: I think, which you can buy today. 1147 00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:24,000 Speaker 11: I mean, like I said, it's the only book that 1148 00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:27,200 Speaker 11: I know of that fits these pieces together. 1149 00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:29,480 Speaker 12: No, it is the only book. Actually, I've been in 1150 00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:32,640 Speaker 12: contact with James Mason, and he said when radio interview, 1151 00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:34,560 Speaker 12: it's not the first of its kind, but it's the 1152 00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:35,600 Speaker 12: best of its kind. 1153 00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:51,200 Speaker 11: High praise from the book's Nazi pedophile subject. Why did 1154 00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:53,640 Speaker 11: he donate his papers to the library, because, like you said, 1155 00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:56,680 Speaker 11: most people are not not only not preserving these items 1156 00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:58,400 Speaker 11: where they're not preserving them at all because they know 1157 00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:01,400 Speaker 11: what they've done is illegal or harassing to everyone involved, 1158 00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:05,800 Speaker 11: and they're intentionally destroying the evidence of these kinds of communications. 1159 00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,520 Speaker 11: But he not only saved them, but he wanted to 1160 00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:09,919 Speaker 11: make sure we could read them. 1161 00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:12,040 Speaker 9: Did you talk to him at all about why he 1162 00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:12,360 Speaker 9: did that? 1163 00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:15,280 Speaker 12: Well, he sold them. He was a wheeler dealer in 1164 00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:20,320 Speaker 12: especially American Nazi party memorabilia. You know, he sold furniture 1165 00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:24,280 Speaker 12: on the side, like antiques. He'd go antiquing and he 1166 00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:26,920 Speaker 12: if you've seen pictures of his apartment, it's filled with 1167 00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:29,640 Speaker 12: Nazi nickknacks, right, he's got a knife collection. 1168 00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:32,480 Speaker 11: I mean, it looks like it looks like the Area 1169 00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:34,240 Speaker 11: Nation's booth at the Tulsa Gun Show. 1170 00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:37,000 Speaker 12: It looks like my apartment, but like the in the 1171 00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:43,160 Speaker 12: inverse and fewer plants. So he was a collector. So 1172 00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:45,720 Speaker 12: he was already on My understanding is he was already 1173 00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:49,640 Speaker 12: selling George Lincoln Rockwell memoryabilia or whatever, papers and such. 1174 00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:53,200 Speaker 12: Two Kansas. They have this collection there called the Wilcox 1175 00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:56,600 Speaker 12: Collection of anti extremist stuff. This guy, Laird Wilcox, had 1176 00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:59,960 Speaker 12: been in early students for Democratic Society before they took 1177 00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:03,040 Speaker 12: like Marxist turn and then decided that the left and 1178 00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:06,280 Speaker 12: the right were the same, like in the seventies or something, 1179 00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:08,880 Speaker 12: and started collecting all this material. So they were one 1180 00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:11,800 Speaker 12: of the they're probably the biggest collection of far right material. 1181 00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:14,760 Speaker 12: And as I said, at the time, libraries weren't collecting 1182 00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:16,760 Speaker 12: it and people weren't writing about it. They were like, oh, 1183 00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:18,880 Speaker 12: these are just a bunch of kooks and wing nuts. 1184 00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:22,000 Speaker 12: They're not important. And some of this is because, like 1185 00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:24,000 Speaker 12: as I say in the book, the first neo Nazi 1186 00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:27,040 Speaker 12: mass murder wasn't until the late seventies, like it was 1187 00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:31,040 Speaker 12: what we know as neo Nazism today really only emerged 1188 00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:33,360 Speaker 12: in the seventies, is one of my arguments in the book. 1189 00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:35,840 Speaker 12: So the papers were there because he sold them. The 1190 00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:39,960 Speaker 12: second thing is he is unique, I think, not unique, 1191 00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:44,640 Speaker 12: but very uncommon because he is an unabashed neo Nazi. 1192 00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:46,640 Speaker 12: He does not try to hide it. He is not 1193 00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:51,400 Speaker 12: like the NSM, which is actually a party he co founded, shockingly, 1194 00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:54,360 Speaker 12: but left over it as they turned because originally it 1195 00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:56,360 Speaker 12: was to promote violence, and then as it turned to 1196 00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:59,160 Speaker 12: a more traditional Hollywood Nazi party, he left. But it's 1197 00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:01,400 Speaker 12: the same one that was at Charlottesville, and Jeff's Scoop 1198 01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:04,080 Speaker 12: was the head of I actually taught Jeff Scoop about 1199 01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:04,440 Speaker 12: how the. 1200 01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:07,200 Speaker 10: Party was founded. That was very interesting. I interviewed him 1201 01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:07,680 Speaker 10: for the book. 1202 01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:09,920 Speaker 9: Another one of those dishonest actors. 1203 01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:11,680 Speaker 12: Well, the guy who had made him the head of 1204 01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:15,280 Speaker 12: the party, who was actually the second head, Harrington, cliff Harrington. 1205 01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:18,440 Speaker 12: Clifford Harrington did not give him the truthful account of 1206 01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:21,520 Speaker 12: the parties founding. Harrington claimed he was a co founder, 1207 01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:23,680 Speaker 12: and he wasn't. He claimed a different date. This is 1208 01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:26,080 Speaker 12: one reason I spent so much time on stuff. Also 1209 01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:28,000 Speaker 12: that I found all these things that had been printed 1210 01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:30,880 Speaker 12: that were wrong. The bi scholars and others that were 1211 01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:32,880 Speaker 12: and it wasn't their fault, they were taken. It was 1212 01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:35,160 Speaker 12: hard to get these harder to get these documents, especially 1213 01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:37,760 Speaker 12: when a group is moving. And so Harrington claimed he 1214 01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:40,280 Speaker 12: had been a co founder in nineteen seventy four or whatever, 1215 01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:43,840 Speaker 12: but he was lying. Mason was one of the co 1216 01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:47,360 Speaker 12: founders and not him. He only became the head in 1217 01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:51,240 Speaker 12: the eighties. So this is some of the stuff I found. Anyway, 1218 01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:52,640 Speaker 12: I was going to say the NSM at one point, 1219 01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:54,440 Speaker 12: god where not neo Nazis. 1220 01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:55,280 Speaker 10: Were National Socialists. 1221 01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:58,640 Speaker 12: I was like, get the fuck out of here, like really, like, 1222 01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:03,040 Speaker 12: come all, your flag is a swastikonic ah, I mean, 1223 01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:06,720 Speaker 12: this is absurd, but people will do that, right, It's 1224 01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:09,640 Speaker 12: like the dead parents git in Monty Python. If people 1225 01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:12,200 Speaker 12: know this and so. But Mason stands out because he's 1226 01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:14,920 Speaker 12: always been very upfront about his views. He's very proud 1227 01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:17,640 Speaker 12: of them. He's not ashamed. And if this it's embarrassed 1228 01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:19,840 Speaker 12: other people, they didn't belong He's as he told to me, 1229 01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:21,760 Speaker 12: they didn't believe in the One True religion. 1230 01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:23,480 Speaker 10: So I asked him. 1231 01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:26,360 Speaker 12: About these counterculture figures who have denied they were ever 1232 01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:28,680 Speaker 12: involved in this stuff. At the time, he was convinced 1233 01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:31,680 Speaker 12: they were National Socialists and he was like, well, they 1234 01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:34,160 Speaker 12: believed in something else other than the One True Faith. 1235 01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:35,640 Speaker 10: I think that's the word he used. 1236 01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:38,880 Speaker 12: So, yeah, he is nothing to hide. He's very open 1237 01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:42,200 Speaker 12: about it, very open about promoting terrorism. As you know, 1238 01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:44,720 Speaker 12: and maybe some of the listeners do young neo Nazis 1239 01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:47,200 Speaker 12: go to his apartment and he tutors them. They take 1240 01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:51,560 Speaker 12: pictures with him. This included Sam Woodward, who murdered a 1241 01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:54,840 Speaker 12: young gay Jewish man Blaze Bernstein, recently sentence to life 1242 01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:59,120 Speaker 12: in prison. There's pictures a Woodward in Mason's apartment. So yeah, 1243 01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:01,720 Speaker 12: I mean he wants he's proud of his lineage and 1244 01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:03,800 Speaker 12: he wants it documented. And I know I did him 1245 01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:06,880 Speaker 12: a favor by writing a book about his movement. I mean, 1246 01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:10,200 Speaker 12: they don't have the intellectuals and the resources to in 1247 01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:13,560 Speaker 12: the trained people to write historical books, and I did 1248 01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:15,680 Speaker 12: it a pretty straight up book. Even Mason was like, 1249 01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:17,960 Speaker 12: I kept waiting to read the smear. I kept waiting 1250 01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:20,200 Speaker 12: for the smear. There was no smear. I was like, yeah, 1251 01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:22,440 Speaker 12: I just wrote it as a history book. And so 1252 01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:25,800 Speaker 12: in a way I've given them an insight into their 1253 01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:28,800 Speaker 12: history which wouldn't exist otherwise. So this stuff is always 1254 01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:31,240 Speaker 12: a double edged sword when you cover as you know, 1255 01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:34,040 Speaker 12: when you cover fascist groups, they want the publicity. 1256 01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:35,280 Speaker 10: By and large. 1257 01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:39,160 Speaker 12: I was told sometimes at the SPLC, like groups contact 1258 01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:41,720 Speaker 12: them and they're like cover us, give us coverage. 1259 01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:44,320 Speaker 9: Sending them their press releases. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1260 01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:46,600 Speaker 11: But I mean I think someone like Mason, I guess 1261 01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:48,400 Speaker 11: he doesn't see the smear because, like you said, he's 1262 01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:51,000 Speaker 11: proud of himself. So this is I think is an 1263 01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:55,480 Speaker 11: honest appraisal of his legacy, and most people would see 1264 01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:56,840 Speaker 11: that as a smear, but he's proud of it. 1265 01:02:57,160 --> 01:02:58,919 Speaker 12: Well, it's not a smear. I don't need to say 1266 01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:03,160 Speaker 12: anything bad about him. He's there promoting Nazi terrorism. What's 1267 01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:07,360 Speaker 12: the point of, like, you know, denouncing this or something. 1268 01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:11,120 Speaker 11: I mean, Whereas I think someone like Pierce, I think 1269 01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:13,960 Speaker 11: sometimes when people write honestly about Piers, obviously he's been 1270 01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:18,400 Speaker 11: dead for twenty five years, but he resisted the characterization 1271 01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:21,520 Speaker 11: that he was inciting terrorism, even though he, like Mason 1272 01:03:21,640 --> 01:03:23,240 Speaker 11: very much was Oh. 1273 01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:25,520 Speaker 10: Well, Pierce is just a liar. I mean, all these 1274 01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:26,680 Speaker 10: guys exactly. 1275 01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:26,920 Speaker 9: That's what I mean. 1276 01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:29,280 Speaker 11: But I think a book like this about Pierce, I 1277 01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:32,120 Speaker 11: think he would not have enjoyed, whereas Mason is at 1278 01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:33,640 Speaker 11: least honest about his legacy. 1279 01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:36,400 Speaker 12: You know, there is a terrible book about Pierce by 1280 01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:39,800 Speaker 12: one of the sickaphants who is a professor actually Griffin. 1281 01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:44,360 Speaker 11: Yeah, and that again, that is one of those dishonest histories. 1282 01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:46,160 Speaker 11: I think we were talking before we started recording that 1283 01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:49,960 Speaker 11: the problem with archival research trying to write a history 1284 01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:53,240 Speaker 11: of these movements is they are dishonest actors. And so 1285 01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:55,760 Speaker 11: Robert S. Griffin he wrote what is it the Fame 1286 01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:56,880 Speaker 11: of a dead Man's Deeds? 1287 01:03:56,960 --> 01:03:57,160 Speaker 6: Yes? 1288 01:03:57,320 --> 01:04:00,360 Speaker 9: Is that what it's called. He went into it saying like, 1289 01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:00,880 Speaker 9: I'm going. 1290 01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:04,040 Speaker 11: To write this neutral appraisal of this figure of the movement, 1291 01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:06,520 Speaker 11: about William Luther Pierce, and over the weeks that he 1292 01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:09,200 Speaker 11: spent on the compound to write it, and he spent 1293 01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:13,600 Speaker 11: time with Peers on the compound in Hillsboro, became radicalized 1294 01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:16,480 Speaker 11: and is a Nazi. Now are he still alive? I mean, 1295 01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:18,720 Speaker 11: he could take issue with that characterization if he wants. 1296 01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:23,120 Speaker 11: But yes, I'm sure you've read the book. It's not neutral. 1297 01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:25,160 Speaker 11: It's a has giography of Peers. 1298 01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:25,560 Speaker 6: Yeah. 1299 01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:29,200 Speaker 12: There's actually a book by Pierce's son too, which is interesting. 1300 01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:30,360 Speaker 9: I've read that. It's quite good. 1301 01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:32,959 Speaker 10: Well, unfortunately a lot of it's copy pasta. 1302 01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:37,280 Speaker 11: But I think his insight into his relationship with his 1303 01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:40,240 Speaker 11: father is very unique. It's called The Sins of My 1304 01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:42,840 Speaker 11: Father by Kelvin Pierce. I mean, that's a window you 1305 01:04:42,880 --> 01:04:44,919 Speaker 11: don't often get, although I guess now we do also 1306 01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:48,760 Speaker 11: have the Klansman's son by Don Black's. 1307 01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:51,360 Speaker 9: Daughter Black's daughter or son she has transitions. 1308 01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:53,919 Speaker 10: Oh, I did not know that well, Mazeltov. 1309 01:04:54,160 --> 01:04:57,720 Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah, I remember reading their work before Trump, and 1310 01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:01,320 Speaker 12: they actually wrote one of the most moving resignations from 1311 01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:04,240 Speaker 12: the movement that I've read, very much, taking you know, 1312 01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:06,640 Speaker 12: being accountable even though they were raised in it. I 1313 01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:08,880 Speaker 12: feel like children raised in this are not like as 1314 01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:12,360 Speaker 12: accountable as adults are, right, especially like they were in 1315 01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:13,400 Speaker 12: college at the time. 1316 01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:16,080 Speaker 10: But it was like a true interesting. 1317 01:05:15,680 --> 01:05:19,320 Speaker 12: Working through it, and I felt like heartfelt apology for it. 1318 01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:22,200 Speaker 12: And yeah, actually this is a fun fact. You may 1319 01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:27,720 Speaker 12: know a member of the Aryan Nationalist Action A and A. 1320 01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:30,880 Speaker 12: This terrorist there's a bank robbing group from the eighties. 1321 01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:35,680 Speaker 12: I think became the first person to transition gender. 1322 01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:37,200 Speaker 9: From Donald Langyen. 1323 01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:40,320 Speaker 11: Donal Langen was known as pretty Boy Pedro when she 1324 01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:42,720 Speaker 11: was the head of the Aryan Republican Army. It's a 1325 01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:45,560 Speaker 11: bank robbery gang out of Allaheim City. Yeah, she was 1326 01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:48,360 Speaker 11: the first person to win a battle with the federal 1327 01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:50,320 Speaker 11: government to transition in federal prison. 1328 01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:51,240 Speaker 10: To get surgery. 1329 01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:54,640 Speaker 11: Yeah, and just recently. Actually, there was a filing in 1330 01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:57,280 Speaker 11: her case. She's trying to get the way the case 1331 01:05:57,360 --> 01:05:59,920 Speaker 11: is titled in the court records it's still Peter Lean 1332 01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:03,720 Speaker 11: in her dead name, and the judge denied her petition 1333 01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:07,160 Speaker 11: to retitle the case. But she has transitioned and is 1334 01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:08,040 Speaker 11: in a women's prison. 1335 01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:09,040 Speaker 10: Is she in Texas? 1336 01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:11,360 Speaker 9: Oh gosh, I could look up in the BOP where 1337 01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:11,760 Speaker 9: she is. 1338 01:06:11,880 --> 01:06:14,560 Speaker 10: Texas bans prisoners from changing their names. 1339 01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:20,280 Speaker 9: She is in FMC cars. Well that isn't in Dallas. 1340 01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:22,760 Speaker 10: Yeah, that's why. That's why. 1341 01:06:23,560 --> 01:06:25,760 Speaker 11: So she's still in the BOP system under her dead name, 1342 01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:30,040 Speaker 11: but she was allowed to physically transition. So that's again 1343 01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:33,360 Speaker 11: just a strange twist of history, right that the person 1344 01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:35,640 Speaker 11: who won that legal padel for us was a Nazi 1345 01:06:35,680 --> 01:06:36,240 Speaker 11: bank robber. 1346 01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:40,600 Speaker 12: Well, she has also long repudiated those politics. So I 1347 01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:43,920 Speaker 12: think she's been the only person to have surgery transperson 1348 01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:47,000 Speaker 12: has surgery who was in prisoned at the time, because 1349 01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:50,040 Speaker 12: I think that was recently and then everything, you know, 1350 01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:53,680 Speaker 12: everything they changed. They I know that they slowed down 1351 01:06:54,600 --> 01:06:57,960 Speaker 12: their trans policies waiting to see the results of the election. 1352 01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:00,760 Speaker 12: So for strange reason, I you know, actually a bunch 1353 01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:02,720 Speaker 12: of the stuff about trans people in prison. 1354 01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:06,120 Speaker 11: So anyway, no, I mean it's a remarkable, remarkable history. 1355 01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:06,439 Speaker 6: Yeah. 1356 01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:10,240 Speaker 11: Yeah, So you started writing this book after Unite the 1357 01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:13,360 Speaker 11: Right because there's this renewed interest in Siege. I mean, 1358 01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:15,280 Speaker 11: I guess what has the experience been, like, you know, 1359 01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:17,480 Speaker 11: over the course of spending the last six years of 1360 01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:21,240 Speaker 11: your life working on this, realizing that it is only 1361 01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:23,960 Speaker 11: becoming more relevant and not less. 1362 01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:27,600 Speaker 12: Well, the problem is is like for people like us 1363 01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:30,320 Speaker 12: who watch the far right, like our work is only 1364 01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:33,360 Speaker 12: important or people are only interested in it when there 1365 01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:35,800 Speaker 12: is a big upswing, and then like that's when people 1366 01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:38,200 Speaker 12: are interested and that's when it is more important. So 1367 01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:40,800 Speaker 12: on one hand, it's good that I didn't spend five 1368 01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:42,920 Speaker 12: years and then no one remembered what siege was and 1369 01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:45,000 Speaker 12: it was just a blip. I mean, that's good for me, 1370 01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:46,440 Speaker 12: But I'll have to say what's good for me is 1371 01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:47,600 Speaker 12: bad for society. 1372 01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:48,919 Speaker 9: And so I mean, I think. 1373 01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:51,120 Speaker 11: It would have been an important work of history regardless. 1374 01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:53,080 Speaker 11: But I guess as you're working on it, realizing that 1375 01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:54,720 Speaker 11: the body count is only growing. 1376 01:07:55,200 --> 01:08:00,240 Speaker 12: Yeah, it's it's I don't know, I don't really you know, 1377 01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:02,720 Speaker 12: what do you say about that. I call these people 1378 01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:07,200 Speaker 12: empty people spreading emptiness. Like it's hard for me even 1379 01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:10,840 Speaker 12: to get mad at the more aggressive neo Nazis and 1380 01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:14,560 Speaker 12: white supremacists. Like often they're young, and I just see 1381 01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:18,360 Speaker 12: like sad young people who can't deal with their problems, 1382 01:08:18,439 --> 01:08:22,120 Speaker 12: engaged in like hurting other people who are often not 1383 01:08:22,240 --> 01:08:24,400 Speaker 12: so different than them, you know, I mean there's a 1384 01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:27,720 Speaker 12: trans man who was in Adam. Often you know, like 1385 01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:33,800 Speaker 12: they're yeah, numerous stories of people being you know, of 1386 01:08:34,280 --> 01:08:37,400 Speaker 12: not white descent, either they're hiding that they're not, or 1387 01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:39,599 Speaker 12: they're a mixed race descent and they're sort of passing 1388 01:08:39,640 --> 01:08:43,120 Speaker 12: as wide of being Jewish and being queer, all this stuff. 1389 01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:44,960 Speaker 10: The movement's filled with these people. 1390 01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:47,320 Speaker 12: Sometimes it's the people are even like how many straight 1391 01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:50,160 Speaker 12: white men are there in the movement, Like and it's 1392 01:08:50,240 --> 01:08:53,600 Speaker 12: just sad. You're like, I see you're being attracted to 1393 01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:57,840 Speaker 12: this because you're so alienated or you're so your identity 1394 01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:00,559 Speaker 12: is so shaky that you are attracted to this idea 1395 01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:03,599 Speaker 12: of a firm, strong identity. And I mean sometimes people 1396 01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:06,320 Speaker 12: forget Fascism in Italy and Germany arose and basically the 1397 01:09:06,400 --> 01:09:09,960 Speaker 12: last two countries that arose and solidified in Europe, Like 1398 01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:13,240 Speaker 12: those were countries that wasn't clear what Italy was going 1399 01:09:13,320 --> 01:09:15,679 Speaker 12: to be. There's such differences between the north and the south. 1400 01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:19,040 Speaker 12: There's no reason, Like it was unclear originally whether Germany 1401 01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:22,280 Speaker 12: was going to be Austria too, you know, and so 1402 01:09:22,320 --> 01:09:24,679 Speaker 12: they were. It's a way part of fascism is shoring 1403 01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:28,640 Speaker 12: up that national identity which was very fragmented, and it 1404 01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:31,320 Speaker 12: works the same I think with people's identities. And one 1405 01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:33,439 Speaker 12: of the one of the things that attracts people to 1406 01:09:33,520 --> 01:09:37,000 Speaker 12: neo Nazism, I think, is this strong affirmation of an identity, 1407 01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:41,360 Speaker 12: and people with mixed identities or conflicted about it or 1408 01:09:41,400 --> 01:09:44,679 Speaker 12: filled with self loathing are drawn to this for that reason. 1409 01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:47,360 Speaker 12: One of the many reasons people get drawn into these things. 1410 01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:49,639 Speaker 9: And they recruit so young. 1411 01:09:49,720 --> 01:09:51,479 Speaker 11: I mean, I think in the book you're talking about this, 1412 01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:53,879 Speaker 11: you know all the way back to James Mason's origins 1413 01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:56,320 Speaker 11: that he became interested in the Nazi Party as a 1414 01:09:56,520 --> 01:09:57,920 Speaker 11: fourteen year. 1415 01:09:57,720 --> 01:10:00,000 Speaker 10: Old, joined it, joined it at fourteen. 1416 01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:04,160 Speaker 11: So he's a child, right getting into this movement, and 1417 01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:06,519 Speaker 11: now that he is an old man, he is in 1418 01:10:06,560 --> 01:10:11,240 Speaker 11: turn in doctrinating children, right that Adam Woffen members are 1419 01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:14,960 Speaker 11: very young, I guess were Adam Woffin technically doesn't exist anymore, 1420 01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:19,040 Speaker 11: but most of the young men who spilled blood for 1421 01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:20,040 Speaker 11: Adam Waffen. 1422 01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:21,960 Speaker 9: Were twenty years old, nineteen years old. 1423 01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:24,599 Speaker 12: And you know, someone pointed out the founder of the 1424 01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:29,240 Speaker 12: feuer Krieg Division when he founded it was twelve. He 1425 01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:31,840 Speaker 12: was arrested when he was thirteen or fourteen, but he 1426 01:10:31,960 --> 01:10:32,800 Speaker 12: founded it at. 1427 01:10:32,720 --> 01:10:39,200 Speaker 11: Twelve, and which tragic, obviously tragic, heartbreaking, disgusting. But imagine 1428 01:10:39,240 --> 01:10:42,360 Speaker 11: being one of the adults who is in that group 1429 01:10:42,479 --> 01:10:44,799 Speaker 11: and finding out that your fear was twelve. 1430 01:10:45,280 --> 01:10:48,560 Speaker 12: I grew up in the South in an extremely Protestant 1431 01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:52,400 Speaker 12: area at the height of that like eighties fundamentals Christian 1432 01:10:52,840 --> 01:10:56,360 Speaker 12: Christian right thing, and there were I knew about. These 1433 01:10:56,360 --> 01:10:58,640 Speaker 12: are kind of an older thing. Child preachers. Have you 1434 01:10:58,640 --> 01:11:01,360 Speaker 12: ever heard of child preachers? This was a big thing during. 1435 01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:04,240 Speaker 11: The Yeah, they speak in tongues and they sort of 1436 01:11:04,400 --> 01:11:07,400 Speaker 11: parrot the cadence of the way adults speak. 1437 01:11:07,439 --> 01:11:09,519 Speaker 9: But if you listen carefully, they're not saying anything. 1438 01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:14,160 Speaker 12: If they've memorized the way that adults give these barn 1439 01:11:14,280 --> 01:11:18,920 Speaker 12: burning you know, adul Protestants, Evangelicals give these barn burning sermons, 1440 01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:23,680 Speaker 12: but they don't necessarily understand what they're saying. And so, 1441 01:11:24,439 --> 01:11:26,720 Speaker 12: I mean, I think it's pretty common people adults will 1442 01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:29,000 Speaker 12: do this. They honestly believe in what they're saying. Maybe 1443 01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:31,200 Speaker 12: they understand it a little better. I think there's a 1444 01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:33,920 Speaker 12: bunch of post structuralist academics who don't even understand what 1445 01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:34,439 Speaker 12: they're saying. 1446 01:11:34,439 --> 01:11:35,799 Speaker 10: But that could happen too. 1447 01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:38,880 Speaker 12: And so I think people like, well, I don't know, 1448 01:11:38,960 --> 01:11:40,519 Speaker 12: I was a pretty smart twelve year old. Maybe I 1449 01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:43,000 Speaker 12: would understand it better. But you just need somebody repeating it. 1450 01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:46,639 Speaker 12: It's the slogans and the narratives have already been formed 1451 01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:49,840 Speaker 12: by others. You're not necessarily innovating on it. As long 1452 01:11:49,880 --> 01:11:53,240 Speaker 12: as you can repeat the dogma, it doesn't really matter 1453 01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:56,080 Speaker 12: who's saying. It doesn't matter if you're if the person 1454 01:11:56,160 --> 01:11:57,080 Speaker 12: is gay or Jewish. 1455 01:11:57,360 --> 01:11:59,559 Speaker 9: And I mean, the Estonian twelve year old was not 1456 01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:00,439 Speaker 9: a one, you know. 1457 01:12:00,680 --> 01:12:02,800 Speaker 11: In the Ethan Melzer case a year or two ago, 1458 01:12:03,040 --> 01:12:05,400 Speaker 11: Ethan Melzer was a US Army private who was trying 1459 01:12:05,439 --> 01:12:09,000 Speaker 11: to set up his unit in Turkey to be attacked 1460 01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:12,160 Speaker 11: by Middle Eastern terrorist groups, and the person he was 1461 01:12:12,160 --> 01:12:15,080 Speaker 11: communicating with online sort of goading him into these acts. 1462 01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:17,600 Speaker 9: Was a child. It was a child. He was the 1463 01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:19,439 Speaker 9: Order of Nine Angles though right he was Ona. 1464 01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:22,600 Speaker 12: He wasn't a near Nazi, right, I always try to 1465 01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:24,680 Speaker 12: distinguish there's some nine A's who are not. 1466 01:12:25,479 --> 01:12:28,360 Speaker 11: He was at the bleed point of Adam Waffin's splinter 1467 01:12:28,439 --> 01:12:32,000 Speaker 11: group and Ona he was involved with rape Waffen, was he. Yeah, 1468 01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:34,760 Speaker 11: the lineage of these groups is so messy. I think 1469 01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:37,680 Speaker 11: some of them don't even understand the ideological lineage of 1470 01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:41,320 Speaker 11: the sect they've ended up in. But but Melzer was 1471 01:12:41,320 --> 01:12:43,960 Speaker 11: at that sort of bleed point where Adam Woffin was 1472 01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:45,840 Speaker 11: becoming ONA. 1473 01:12:46,400 --> 01:12:48,479 Speaker 12: But I think what we're seeing now and definitely in 1474 01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:50,880 Speaker 12: these last two school shootings in the last month, is 1475 01:12:51,960 --> 01:12:55,120 Speaker 12: a syncretic murder. Cull the guy who just said the 1476 01:12:55,200 --> 01:12:57,600 Speaker 12: naspau one was black. But if you start looking at 1477 01:12:57,640 --> 01:13:00,960 Speaker 12: both of their manifestos, there were French to all different 1478 01:13:01,040 --> 01:13:03,160 Speaker 12: kinds of things, some of whom are white supremacists and 1479 01:13:03,240 --> 01:13:07,560 Speaker 12: neo Nazis, many of whom aren't just other school shooters, 1480 01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:10,920 Speaker 12: and they don't seem to have a real ideological, necessarily 1481 01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:13,720 Speaker 12: connection to some of this the political stuff. It's not 1482 01:13:14,000 --> 01:13:17,679 Speaker 12: become an O nine A. They are founded by neo 1483 01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:19,519 Speaker 12: Nazi and many of them are neo Nazis, And so 1484 01:13:19,640 --> 01:13:21,240 Speaker 12: I was going to say they're not. They don't have 1485 01:13:21,320 --> 01:13:23,479 Speaker 12: to be, and all the people aren't even if you 1486 01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:26,439 Speaker 12: were supposed to be there, they aren't all And so 1487 01:13:26,560 --> 01:13:32,680 Speaker 12: we're just getting through these various online forums on Telegram 1488 01:13:32,720 --> 01:13:34,920 Speaker 12: and elsewhere. Sometimes they just spread over all kinds of 1489 01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:39,840 Speaker 12: the different platforms. We're getting just this syncretic mix of 1490 01:13:39,880 --> 01:13:42,880 Speaker 12: these things. And this is one of the things that 1491 01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:47,960 Speaker 12: made Nina and Siege culture are parallel Mason's ideas because 1492 01:13:47,960 --> 01:13:50,720 Speaker 12: Mason's not a Satanist, and in fact, he's recently denounced 1493 01:13:50,840 --> 01:13:53,800 Speaker 12: Ordered nine Angles. And when he was around Satanists, they 1494 01:13:53,800 --> 01:13:56,720 Speaker 12: were atheist Satanists around the Church of Satan. That when 1495 01:13:56,760 --> 01:14:00,120 Speaker 12: you start saying, hey, we need to commit random murders 1496 01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:03,400 Speaker 12: in this goal of destroying the like suppose a Jewish 1497 01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:06,920 Speaker 12: controlled society so there could be a White Arean revolution, Like, 1498 01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:10,000 Speaker 12: it doesn't matter if you have a really political reason 1499 01:14:10,080 --> 01:14:12,800 Speaker 12: or if you're thinking that these heretical acts will destroy 1500 01:14:12,920 --> 01:14:16,559 Speaker 12: somehow the consensus reality, you're just trying to go people 1501 01:14:16,640 --> 01:14:20,840 Speaker 12: into these violent, random acts of terrorism and more random murders. 1502 01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:22,040 Speaker 9: Right, and the end result is the same. 1503 01:14:22,400 --> 01:14:24,519 Speaker 12: They're thinking is the same, and the end results is 1504 01:14:24,560 --> 01:14:27,080 Speaker 12: the same. So they start cross pollinating. And then what's 1505 01:14:27,080 --> 01:14:29,360 Speaker 12: the difference between the school shooter cults? 1506 01:14:30,200 --> 01:14:30,439 Speaker 6: You know? 1507 01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:33,719 Speaker 12: And now we have groups like the Maniac Murder cult 1508 01:14:33,720 --> 01:14:37,400 Speaker 12: who are ostensibly political, ostensibly neo Nazi and Order of 1509 01:14:37,439 --> 01:14:40,559 Speaker 12: nine angles been a reality or just like go attack 1510 01:14:40,720 --> 01:14:44,160 Speaker 12: old people from behind. I mean, it's just pathetic stuff. Go, 1511 01:14:44,439 --> 01:14:48,439 Speaker 12: you know, beat up homeless people and stab them. It's like, 1512 01:14:48,479 --> 01:14:50,599 Speaker 12: at some point I often say this and my speeches 1513 01:14:50,640 --> 01:14:52,879 Speaker 12: as it's become more and more real, is like everything 1514 01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:54,879 Speaker 12: blends together in our society. 1515 01:14:55,200 --> 01:14:55,639 Speaker 10: I think. 1516 01:14:56,200 --> 01:14:59,200 Speaker 12: You know, you start with like school shooters, and it's 1517 01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:02,880 Speaker 12: hard to distinguish them from like a political mass shooters 1518 01:15:03,320 --> 01:15:06,479 Speaker 12: and from political mass shooters. Right, at one point, it 1519 01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:09,439 Speaker 12: just becomes this one thing that's like all mixed together 1520 01:15:09,600 --> 01:15:12,160 Speaker 12: because we're having in the United States, we're having these 1521 01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:15,439 Speaker 12: constant attacks and constant that often the body account is 1522 01:15:15,520 --> 01:15:18,519 Speaker 12: very high. Like what becomes the difference anymore? Does it 1523 01:15:18,560 --> 01:15:21,920 Speaker 12: really matter? Like the Allen, Texas guy who was a 1524 01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:25,040 Speaker 12: Latino neo Nazi who killed a bunch of people in 1525 01:15:25,080 --> 01:15:27,880 Speaker 12: an outlet mall, this is really a neo Nazi action, 1526 01:15:28,360 --> 01:15:31,200 Speaker 12: like he was, like clearly if you look at his 1527 01:15:31,240 --> 01:15:34,480 Speaker 12: stuff or an article called Nazis of color about this dynamic. 1528 01:15:35,160 --> 01:15:38,599 Speaker 12: But was his action? How is his action necessarily any 1529 01:15:38,600 --> 01:15:41,519 Speaker 12: different than like a school shooting or whatever, or just 1530 01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:43,640 Speaker 12: like you know, it's just like he's going somewhere and 1531 01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:46,280 Speaker 12: killing random people, Like what is this about? So I 1532 01:15:46,360 --> 01:15:50,479 Speaker 12: think we're seeing this syncretic murdercal is really I know 1533 01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:53,080 Speaker 12: other people have different ways of posing this that is 1534 01:15:53,200 --> 01:15:56,400 Speaker 12: sprawling out on different online platforms and appealing to very young, 1535 01:15:56,439 --> 01:16:01,280 Speaker 12: alienated people, probably whose whole lives are you know, online. 1536 01:16:01,439 --> 01:16:04,920 Speaker 12: I think especially younger people who went through COVID zoomers 1537 01:16:05,080 --> 01:16:07,040 Speaker 12: and I guess people younger than that would be Generation 1538 01:16:07,160 --> 01:16:10,439 Speaker 12: Alpha spend more time online than any other generation. Obviously 1539 01:16:10,479 --> 01:16:13,160 Speaker 12: they must, and this becomes especially when they're much younger, 1540 01:16:13,160 --> 01:16:16,160 Speaker 12: the horizon of other world right, and if they're in 1541 01:16:16,240 --> 01:16:18,360 Speaker 12: cells and they're not really connected to other people and 1542 01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:20,800 Speaker 12: they're not connected to their family, like it just it 1543 01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:24,080 Speaker 12: just drives these impulses more and more, and they don't 1544 01:16:24,120 --> 01:16:27,240 Speaker 12: have the maturity to look outside of it or to 1545 01:16:27,320 --> 01:16:30,240 Speaker 12: think about the repercussions of it, or think of have 1546 01:16:30,320 --> 01:16:32,639 Speaker 12: the empathy to think about how it's going to affect 1547 01:16:32,680 --> 01:16:33,839 Speaker 12: other people in their families. 1548 01:16:43,840 --> 01:16:46,040 Speaker 11: And so when it comes to Siege, what would you 1549 01:16:46,080 --> 01:16:50,840 Speaker 11: say its current role in this sort of evolving syncretic 1550 01:16:51,720 --> 01:16:56,479 Speaker 11: murder culture that we have, is it is Siege's legacy 1551 01:16:56,560 --> 01:17:00,599 Speaker 11: now just that it's ideological lineage lives on in sort 1552 01:17:00,640 --> 01:17:01,840 Speaker 11: of the terragram milieu. 1553 01:17:02,160 --> 01:17:05,880 Speaker 13: Or is it still itself influential? Oh, some of this 1554 01:17:05,960 --> 01:17:09,799 Speaker 13: is a question of ideas. I think sometimes Siege acts 1555 01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:14,479 Speaker 13: as a symbol. People can gesture that their neo Nazis 1556 01:17:14,640 --> 01:17:17,799 Speaker 13: is a serious neo Nazi four hundred and fifty page tone. 1557 01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:19,720 Speaker 9: They didn't read it. They didn't all read it. 1558 01:17:20,840 --> 01:17:22,519 Speaker 12: Yeah, I know read Siege, just like how many of 1559 01:17:22,520 --> 01:17:25,320 Speaker 12: you have read Siege? And I found out doing the 1560 01:17:25,360 --> 01:17:27,920 Speaker 12: work that there's like an edited one hundred page version, 1561 01:17:28,439 --> 01:17:31,439 Speaker 12: and then there's like a little pocket version. And then 1562 01:17:31,479 --> 01:17:33,679 Speaker 12: someone even made the ten tenuts of Siege. 1563 01:17:33,880 --> 01:17:36,280 Speaker 9: There's the spark notes murder called. 1564 01:17:36,439 --> 01:17:39,000 Speaker 12: Well adam Off the division apparently had a test on 1565 01:17:39,160 --> 01:17:40,880 Speaker 12: Siege to get in And I'm like, I know these 1566 01:17:40,880 --> 01:17:44,680 Speaker 12: people didn't write. They're like a lot of very disturbed 1567 01:17:44,800 --> 01:17:47,360 Speaker 12: or you know, people who aren't going to like it's 1568 01:17:47,360 --> 01:17:49,920 Speaker 12: a boring text. I mean I read it twice in like. 1569 01:17:49,920 --> 01:17:52,160 Speaker 11: I've read portions, but I'm not going to sit here 1570 01:17:52,160 --> 01:17:53,439 Speaker 11: and say I read the whole book. 1571 01:17:53,520 --> 01:17:54,679 Speaker 9: It's four hundred and fifty page. 1572 01:17:54,720 --> 01:17:58,640 Speaker 12: Man, I read every newsletter and the book and it's yes, no. 1573 01:17:58,640 --> 01:17:59,120 Speaker 6: Oh. 1574 01:17:59,160 --> 01:18:01,240 Speaker 12: So it acts as a symbol to be like, look, 1575 01:18:01,280 --> 01:18:02,800 Speaker 12: we have a serious intellectual thing. 1576 01:18:02,800 --> 01:18:05,240 Speaker 10: How many Christians have read the Bible? Let's be really sort. 1577 01:18:05,200 --> 01:18:07,559 Speaker 11: I think, yeah, I think that's the right analogy, right, 1578 01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:11,120 Speaker 11: that it is a foundational text, but they're not all 1579 01:18:11,160 --> 01:18:13,479 Speaker 11: sitting down and digesting or even understanding it. 1580 01:18:13,600 --> 01:18:17,160 Speaker 12: Yeah, I mean, how many Communists have read Dos capital No, 1581 01:18:17,400 --> 01:18:19,680 Speaker 12: even just volume one, which I have, I would like 1582 01:18:19,720 --> 01:18:22,320 Speaker 12: to say I have. Actually, is it more or less 1583 01:18:22,320 --> 01:18:25,479 Speaker 12: boring than Siege? It's more intellectual? And so there's that, 1584 01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:29,760 Speaker 12: and there's also like the conclusions are there, right, the 1585 01:18:29,800 --> 01:18:33,000 Speaker 12: whole argument is developed in Siege, But you really just 1586 01:18:33,080 --> 01:18:36,479 Speaker 12: need to take the conclusions, which is you can't do 1587 01:18:36,600 --> 01:18:40,400 Speaker 12: any political work, it's hopeless. You need to go out 1588 01:18:40,400 --> 01:18:44,960 Speaker 12: and commit dramatic acts of violence to help inspire people, 1589 01:18:45,120 --> 01:18:47,880 Speaker 12: and then you know, maybe afterwards there'll be some aran 1590 01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:50,040 Speaker 12: blah blah blah. Frankly, that's all you need to know 1591 01:18:50,080 --> 01:18:53,160 Speaker 12: about it, because that's what it advocates. You just need 1592 01:18:53,160 --> 01:18:57,760 Speaker 12: the praxis that it concludes. And most activists aren't intellectuals. 1593 01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:00,880 Speaker 12: Like I always say, like a movement can have three 1594 01:19:00,880 --> 01:19:03,280 Speaker 12: slogans and what you need to do on the left, 1595 01:19:03,320 --> 01:19:05,200 Speaker 12: you need to make sure those are the right slogans 1596 01:19:05,240 --> 01:19:08,480 Speaker 12: pointing in the right direction, because somebody who flows into activism, 1597 01:19:08,479 --> 01:19:10,519 Speaker 12: who's young, who it doesn't matter if they're young, doesn't 1598 01:19:10,520 --> 01:19:13,000 Speaker 12: have a background of politics, is going to take the 1599 01:19:13,040 --> 01:19:15,080 Speaker 12: thing seriously that you say. And you can only say 1600 01:19:15,120 --> 01:19:18,400 Speaker 12: so many things to people. Political movements are stupid. I mean, 1601 01:19:18,439 --> 01:19:21,000 Speaker 12: this is why we are The ninety nine percent was great. 1602 01:19:21,080 --> 01:19:22,960 Speaker 10: It was great. It wasn't true. 1603 01:19:23,120 --> 01:19:25,160 Speaker 12: I mean half of Americans are like it, you know, 1604 01:19:25,280 --> 01:19:28,240 Speaker 12: support the Republicans, but like it's like one thing and 1605 01:19:28,280 --> 01:19:30,080 Speaker 12: then the person can think about those things. They're not 1606 01:19:30,080 --> 01:19:32,960 Speaker 12: going to have complicated ideas. So what is what are 1607 01:19:32,960 --> 01:19:34,840 Speaker 12: the slogans that come out of something? What are the 1608 01:19:34,880 --> 01:19:36,880 Speaker 12: basic what does it boil down to the things you're 1609 01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:40,439 Speaker 12: saying And people have inherited that from siege or inherited 1610 01:19:40,479 --> 01:19:44,280 Speaker 12: it secondhand, you know, because Terogram is very well versed 1611 01:19:44,320 --> 01:19:47,559 Speaker 12: in what Siege is about. I mean, Adam often had 1612 01:19:47,600 --> 01:19:49,639 Speaker 12: to read it, so they were more I think, into 1613 01:19:49,680 --> 01:19:53,040 Speaker 12: it as a text. And then as it's gone out, 1614 01:19:53,280 --> 01:19:57,720 Speaker 12: you know, Tarogram people, the Tarogram collective certainly knew what 1615 01:19:57,880 --> 01:20:00,200 Speaker 12: was in it and stuff, and so people are being 1616 01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:02,920 Speaker 12: affected by it even if they don't know, even if 1617 01:20:02,920 --> 01:20:04,559 Speaker 12: they haven't read, or even if they don't know. That's 1618 01:20:04,560 --> 01:20:06,439 Speaker 12: the origin of those ideas, right. 1619 01:20:06,520 --> 01:20:09,080 Speaker 9: So Teragram is directly downstream of Siege. 1620 01:20:09,120 --> 01:20:09,240 Speaker 6: Right. 1621 01:20:09,280 --> 01:20:11,400 Speaker 9: So Siege was a newsletter that became a book. 1622 01:20:11,439 --> 01:20:13,920 Speaker 11: People read the book, and the people who read that book 1623 01:20:13,960 --> 01:20:15,280 Speaker 11: turned it back into a zine. 1624 01:20:15,880 --> 01:20:18,479 Speaker 9: Right, So it's it's sort of oh to someone, Right, 1625 01:20:18,520 --> 01:20:19,560 Speaker 9: it's moving. 1626 01:20:19,479 --> 01:20:22,479 Speaker 11: Through its phases and now it's regressing back into sort 1627 01:20:22,479 --> 01:20:24,480 Speaker 11: of mimetic zine form. 1628 01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:28,040 Speaker 12: But people who join these movements who want something more intellectual, 1629 01:20:28,160 --> 01:20:31,360 Speaker 12: because everyone who joins a religious or political movement, some 1630 01:20:31,400 --> 01:20:33,680 Speaker 12: people want a more rigorous They're like, well, what's the 1631 01:20:33,720 --> 01:20:35,600 Speaker 12: reason for this? Well, I have these questions. How do 1632 01:20:35,640 --> 01:20:37,439 Speaker 12: you answer them? What is why are we doing this? 1633 01:20:37,920 --> 01:20:41,480 Speaker 12: Want more rigorous? Some people want a more rigorous background. 1634 01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:44,240 Speaker 12: Can turn to siege, and as they get older will 1635 01:20:44,280 --> 01:20:46,640 Speaker 12: turn to siege or move out of it. And they're like, 1636 01:20:46,640 --> 01:20:49,400 Speaker 12: what were the ideas behind this? Why did we have 1637 01:20:49,520 --> 01:20:52,280 Speaker 12: these ideas? And I think that's it's normal. I mean, 1638 01:20:52,320 --> 01:20:55,400 Speaker 12: there are all kinds of weird intellectual groundings for white supremacists. 1639 01:20:55,400 --> 01:20:58,599 Speaker 12: A lot of it is theology, which is sort of curious, 1640 01:20:58,600 --> 01:21:00,880 Speaker 12: and I kind of conclude it at some point that 1641 01:21:00,960 --> 01:21:03,800 Speaker 12: you just needed something complicated because they couldn't use race 1642 01:21:03,840 --> 01:21:07,080 Speaker 12: science anymore, and they weren't people who developed social science 1643 01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:10,400 Speaker 12: other than someone like a londabenoist who's saying something much 1644 01:21:10,439 --> 01:21:13,479 Speaker 12: more complicated than most white supremacis are. And so like 1645 01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:17,280 Speaker 12: theology just allowed something intellectual for people to chew on, 1646 01:21:17,920 --> 01:21:20,080 Speaker 12: you know what I mean, Like, people are real smart 1647 01:21:20,080 --> 01:21:22,519 Speaker 12: who are very analytical want something to chew on with 1648 01:21:22,600 --> 01:21:25,519 Speaker 12: the ideas, whether it really changes their practice or not. 1649 01:21:25,720 --> 01:21:28,040 Speaker 12: And I think there has to be something that serves 1650 01:21:28,080 --> 01:21:28,639 Speaker 12: that need. 1651 01:21:29,120 --> 01:21:32,080 Speaker 11: And so I guess, wrapping up, because we're supposed to 1652 01:21:32,160 --> 01:21:34,880 Speaker 11: keep these daily shows short, what is the takeaway that 1653 01:21:35,080 --> 01:21:37,120 Speaker 11: you want people to to come away from this book with? 1654 01:21:37,200 --> 01:21:39,080 Speaker 11: I guess, especially in this political moment. 1655 01:21:39,360 --> 01:21:41,880 Speaker 10: I think there's two things The book has two things. 1656 01:21:42,000 --> 01:21:44,679 Speaker 12: One, I just want to have people have a better 1657 01:21:45,000 --> 01:21:47,599 Speaker 12: understanding of neo Nazism in the US and. 1658 01:21:47,479 --> 01:21:48,440 Speaker 10: How it developed. 1659 01:21:48,520 --> 01:21:51,280 Speaker 12: It's just one big blur. It's part of other things, 1660 01:21:51,320 --> 01:21:53,400 Speaker 12: and I see it as a distinct strain. And I 1661 01:21:53,479 --> 01:21:56,120 Speaker 12: want people to have a just a better understanding of 1662 01:21:56,160 --> 01:22:00,320 Speaker 12: that political movements origins, which is maybe a more scholarly thing. 1663 01:22:00,600 --> 01:22:02,560 Speaker 12: And I am My next book, I hope if I 1664 01:22:02,560 --> 01:22:04,240 Speaker 12: can get a contract, is to write a history of 1665 01:22:04,320 --> 01:22:07,200 Speaker 12: national socialism in America, because again, there's not a single 1666 01:22:07,240 --> 01:22:10,240 Speaker 12: book that describes that, which is very strange. Certainly not 1667 01:22:10,280 --> 01:22:12,360 Speaker 12: a history post war, and there may be a pre 1668 01:22:12,400 --> 01:22:14,240 Speaker 12: war one, but not one that puts it all together. 1669 01:22:14,400 --> 01:22:17,240 Speaker 12: So there's a lot of ignorance about this movement. And 1670 01:22:17,280 --> 01:22:19,720 Speaker 12: the second part about the cultural actors, is about the 1671 01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:22,880 Speaker 12: danger of taking a radical cultural movement and to use 1672 01:22:23,040 --> 01:22:28,960 Speaker 12: impulses like transgression and turn them into the very toxic politics, 1673 01:22:29,200 --> 01:22:31,559 Speaker 12: into terrorist politics. At the end of the day, I 1674 01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:34,200 Speaker 12: had a discussion on Blue Sky. It was amazing. You 1675 01:22:34,200 --> 01:22:37,000 Speaker 12: could see, it wasn't twitter. I had a useful discussion 1676 01:22:37,040 --> 01:22:39,960 Speaker 12: on Blue Sky and where I learned something. It was 1677 01:22:40,080 --> 01:22:43,360 Speaker 12: just fabulous, and it was this woman posted that, which 1678 01:22:43,360 --> 01:22:45,800 Speaker 12: is like essentially in Matzau I read it. In the 1679 01:22:45,840 --> 01:22:50,320 Speaker 12: twentieth century, there was always this assumption that transgressive art, 1680 01:22:50,320 --> 01:22:55,240 Speaker 12: avant garde art was implicitly progressive. Sometimes it was ideological, 1681 01:22:55,280 --> 01:22:57,840 Speaker 12: but even when it wasn't, even when I had some 1682 01:22:57,960 --> 01:23:03,719 Speaker 12: dodgy elements, the impulse of it led to progressive, left 1683 01:23:03,800 --> 01:23:08,640 Speaker 12: leaning politics, and it's very transgression was progressive. And I 1684 01:23:08,640 --> 01:23:10,439 Speaker 12: mean these guys I'm looking at are and working in 1685 01:23:10,439 --> 01:23:12,720 Speaker 12: the eighties, and you see it now, we've all seen 1686 01:23:12,760 --> 01:23:15,360 Speaker 12: it with four Chan like that was never that isn't true, 1687 01:23:15,360 --> 01:23:18,080 Speaker 12: and that was never true true, right, I mean those 1688 01:23:18,080 --> 01:23:19,920 Speaker 12: of us in the punk scene in the eighties and nineties, 1689 01:23:20,000 --> 01:23:22,559 Speaker 12: it could see this, even if we certainly didn't put 1690 01:23:22,560 --> 01:23:25,160 Speaker 12: it that way. With like skinheads in particular, it was 1691 01:23:25,240 --> 01:23:28,360 Speaker 12: contested terrain where people were trying to take the subculture 1692 01:23:28,360 --> 01:23:30,280 Speaker 12: and pull it to the left and right right. There 1693 01:23:30,280 --> 01:23:33,920 Speaker 12: were so many Nazis, but there were anti fascist skinheads too, Sharps. 1694 01:23:34,200 --> 01:23:37,040 Speaker 12: Sharps to some extent, Sharps were a lot of them 1695 01:23:37,080 --> 01:23:40,559 Speaker 12: are rgling nationalists. They just weren't a Nazis. This is 1696 01:23:40,840 --> 01:23:43,240 Speaker 12: a common There was grips like rash Red and anarchist 1697 01:23:43,240 --> 01:23:45,800 Speaker 12: skinheads who still exist, but there was a contested train 1698 01:23:45,800 --> 01:23:48,360 Speaker 12: where people trying to pull it in different directions. This 1699 01:23:48,479 --> 01:23:52,640 Speaker 12: is still the case in neo folk and heathen religious circles. 1700 01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:53,479 Speaker 10: And that's sort of you. 1701 01:23:53,640 --> 01:23:55,920 Speaker 12: There's an implication which I don't think I can only 1702 01:23:56,040 --> 01:23:59,520 Speaker 12: like put it into words now, that like the transgressive 1703 01:23:59,520 --> 01:24:02,680 Speaker 12: elements of these subcultures didn't necessarily go one way or 1704 01:24:02,680 --> 01:24:04,880 Speaker 12: the other, and it was something you'd have to fight over, 1705 01:24:05,160 --> 01:24:08,120 Speaker 12: like they could go and have any direction. And I 1706 01:24:08,120 --> 01:24:10,040 Speaker 12: think it was clear on four Chan early on. I 1707 01:24:10,080 --> 01:24:12,080 Speaker 12: once was mentioned very early on in four Chan and 1708 01:24:12,120 --> 01:24:12,919 Speaker 12: someone chimed. 1709 01:24:12,680 --> 01:24:13,880 Speaker 10: In and they're like, leave them alone. 1710 01:24:13,880 --> 01:24:16,000 Speaker 12: He's my friend, and I'm like, no, which of my 1711 01:24:16,080 --> 01:24:19,240 Speaker 12: friends are on four Chan and defending me? But like 1712 01:24:19,240 --> 01:24:21,240 Speaker 12: four Chan didn't have to end up the way it did. 1713 01:24:21,920 --> 01:24:25,840 Speaker 12: You know, the earlier Internet culture wasn't like this. It 1714 01:24:25,960 --> 01:24:30,760 Speaker 12: was progressive or libertarian, or a more decent libertarian for 1715 01:24:30,920 --> 01:24:33,840 Speaker 12: reading of libertarianism than we have now. So that's the 1716 01:24:33,920 --> 01:24:36,000 Speaker 12: second part. I mean, other than these guys, if you 1717 01:24:36,040 --> 01:24:38,120 Speaker 12: ever were in the industrial or neo folk scene and 1718 01:24:38,160 --> 01:24:40,280 Speaker 12: you heard the beout, there's Nazis, I have all of 1719 01:24:40,320 --> 01:24:43,200 Speaker 12: the receipt in detail in the book. If that's of 1720 01:24:43,280 --> 01:24:43,960 Speaker 12: interest to you. 1721 01:24:44,000 --> 01:24:46,400 Speaker 11: Yeah, Boyd Rice will tell you he never meant it, 1722 01:24:46,439 --> 01:24:49,320 Speaker 11: but I've read some of the primary documents that lead 1723 01:24:49,360 --> 01:24:50,440 Speaker 11: me to believe otherwise. 1724 01:24:50,640 --> 01:24:50,880 Speaker 8: Yeah. 1725 01:24:50,920 --> 01:24:53,200 Speaker 12: And I even made a video of him creatively entitled 1726 01:24:53,200 --> 01:24:54,960 Speaker 12: Boyd Rice New Nazi Collaborator. 1727 01:24:55,160 --> 01:24:56,720 Speaker 10: And I know you're like, Spencer, what are you really 1728 01:24:56,720 --> 01:24:57,280 Speaker 10: getting at here? 1729 01:24:57,280 --> 01:24:59,800 Speaker 12: And I show the letters and stuff, and just if 1730 01:24:59,800 --> 01:25:01,960 Speaker 12: you're not familiar with these figures, I know a lot 1731 01:25:01,960 --> 01:25:04,599 Speaker 12: of people there were very obscure movements at the time, 1732 01:25:04,800 --> 01:25:07,519 Speaker 12: and you know, people are not familiar with them. But 1733 01:25:08,040 --> 01:25:10,240 Speaker 12: I think are familiar enough with this idea of like 1734 01:25:10,280 --> 01:25:14,200 Speaker 12: a super radical cultural movement about step by step by 1735 01:25:14,200 --> 01:25:18,200 Speaker 12: show how it can move into fully politicized a transgressive 1736 01:25:18,200 --> 01:25:22,200 Speaker 12: movement can move into a fully politicized, super toxic neo 1737 01:25:22,320 --> 01:25:25,680 Speaker 12: Nazism that is espousing terrorism, and that that this is 1738 01:25:25,680 --> 01:25:27,559 Speaker 12: something that we always have to watch out for in 1739 01:25:27,600 --> 01:25:30,560 Speaker 12: our own religious movements and our own cultural movements and 1740 01:25:30,680 --> 01:25:34,080 Speaker 12: occult circles. I just did a podcast with some you know, 1741 01:25:34,200 --> 01:25:38,120 Speaker 12: ac cult style esoteric podcast, and I was talking about 1742 01:25:38,280 --> 01:25:41,120 Speaker 12: Satanists to become Nazis. Satanists are sort of I would 1743 01:25:41,160 --> 01:25:44,000 Speaker 12: say split these days, but there's definitely a Nazi, you 1744 01:25:44,040 --> 01:25:46,799 Speaker 12: know peace in there are a very visible one. 1745 01:25:47,040 --> 01:25:48,679 Speaker 10: And so some of it's just about these things. 1746 01:25:48,840 --> 01:25:52,360 Speaker 11: That's an important takeaway too, that you know, in any subculture, 1747 01:25:52,400 --> 01:25:55,840 Speaker 11: especially the sort of transgressive subcultures like you know, counterculture 1748 01:25:56,200 --> 01:26:00,200 Speaker 11: music and art and you know, occult spaces, you know 1749 01:26:00,200 --> 01:26:01,520 Speaker 11: have a magical practice. 1750 01:26:01,160 --> 01:26:04,120 Speaker 9: That you engage in. People who engage in, you know, practice. 1751 01:26:03,800 --> 01:26:07,840 Speaker 11: Pagan faiths in all these subcultures, you need to call 1752 01:26:07,880 --> 01:26:11,280 Speaker 11: out these bad actors early and often push back. Don't 1753 01:26:11,320 --> 01:26:13,439 Speaker 11: let them bullow you and push them out of your spaces. 1754 01:26:14,280 --> 01:26:18,840 Speaker 12: Absolutely, and Nazis ruin everything. They intentionally go into all 1755 01:26:18,880 --> 01:26:21,640 Speaker 12: these spaces and sometimes don't intentionally. Actually, this was a 1756 01:26:21,640 --> 01:26:24,800 Speaker 12: comment on Stormfront I learned from talking about Nazis and 1757 01:26:24,840 --> 01:26:27,960 Speaker 12: the animal rights movement, and they're like, Spencer doesn't understand. 1758 01:26:28,600 --> 01:26:33,680 Speaker 12: We're not infiltrating these movements. We're just vegans. We're just 1759 01:26:33,760 --> 01:26:38,320 Speaker 12: also Nazis. Like, but we're not vegans because we're Nazis. 1760 01:26:38,320 --> 01:26:40,679 Speaker 12: We're not coming here from some other reason. 1761 01:26:41,080 --> 01:26:42,719 Speaker 9: Well, you can't let them sit with you either way. 1762 01:26:43,800 --> 01:26:45,240 Speaker 10: Well, this is a funny story. I don't know if 1763 01:26:45,240 --> 01:26:45,719 Speaker 10: you have tied. 1764 01:26:45,800 --> 01:26:48,160 Speaker 12: But I heard this story from a friend of mine 1765 01:26:48,200 --> 01:26:50,920 Speaker 12: that they were in a vegan group in southern California, 1766 01:26:51,000 --> 01:26:54,720 Speaker 12: I think, and they had a unofficial party, like a barbecue. 1767 01:26:54,760 --> 01:26:56,360 Speaker 12: It's people from the group, you know, from the group 1768 01:26:56,400 --> 01:26:58,599 Speaker 12: doing it. People brought their partners. It wasn't an official 1769 01:26:58,640 --> 01:27:01,160 Speaker 12: group function. But this white member of the group brought 1770 01:27:01,160 --> 01:27:05,320 Speaker 12: her husband, who was Kevin McDonald. Oh, and they were 1771 01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:09,280 Speaker 12: vegetarians or vegans, and people were like, holy fuck. And 1772 01:27:09,479 --> 01:27:11,719 Speaker 12: he was like, I mean, I feel a little sympathetic 1773 01:27:11,760 --> 01:27:13,200 Speaker 12: to me. He's like, hey, man, I don't know. I'm 1774 01:27:13,240 --> 01:27:16,040 Speaker 12: just I'm a I'm a vegetarian or whatever. I'm here 1775 01:27:16,080 --> 01:27:16,719 Speaker 12: with my wife. 1776 01:27:16,760 --> 01:27:18,000 Speaker 10: She's going to a party. 1777 01:27:18,320 --> 01:27:20,200 Speaker 9: Like, no, you're not allowed to have friends. You're not 1778 01:27:20,240 --> 01:27:22,000 Speaker 9: allowed to have friends, You're not allowed to have hobbies. 1779 01:27:22,000 --> 01:27:22,639 Speaker 9: You can't be here. 1780 01:27:23,600 --> 01:27:26,919 Speaker 12: Yeah, But he's like, I'm not here to recruit anyone. 1781 01:27:27,280 --> 01:27:28,400 Speaker 12: I'm here, you know what I mean. 1782 01:27:28,439 --> 01:27:32,120 Speaker 9: It's the barbecue is over with the race scientist shows up. 1783 01:27:32,200 --> 01:27:34,639 Speaker 12: Well. This became a big discussion in the group about 1784 01:27:34,640 --> 01:27:36,439 Speaker 12: whether to push him out or not. But you have 1785 01:27:36,520 --> 01:27:38,280 Speaker 12: to do these things, and if you even if you 1786 01:27:38,320 --> 01:27:41,879 Speaker 12: don't want to they're my friend, or everyone's welcome or whatever. 1787 01:27:42,080 --> 01:27:44,200 Speaker 12: What is gonna end up happening if you don't push 1788 01:27:44,240 --> 01:27:47,280 Speaker 12: the Nazi out, is that more Nazis show up. Well, 1789 01:27:47,400 --> 01:27:50,000 Speaker 12: if it's a single person, people are gonna start leaving, 1790 01:27:50,080 --> 01:27:52,559 Speaker 12: people of color are gonna leave, Jews are gonna leave, 1791 01:27:52,800 --> 01:27:55,439 Speaker 12: LGBTQ plus people are gonna leave, and you're gonna end 1792 01:27:55,520 --> 01:27:58,280 Speaker 12: up defending this one person losing many more So, even 1793 01:27:58,439 --> 01:28:01,160 Speaker 12: just on your own, you know, in life and self interest, 1794 01:28:01,400 --> 01:28:03,080 Speaker 12: if you want to keep your group together, and I've 1795 01:28:03,080 --> 01:28:05,400 Speaker 12: seen this again and again and again, and then they're like, 1796 01:28:05,479 --> 01:28:08,599 Speaker 12: you're defending a Nazis, so you're one too, So yeah, 1797 01:28:08,640 --> 01:28:10,840 Speaker 12: you've got to kick these people out, even just for 1798 01:28:10,960 --> 01:28:13,599 Speaker 12: practical reasons. I have a very low bar for people 1799 01:28:13,680 --> 01:28:16,519 Speaker 12: these days, and I try to appeal. I try to 1800 01:28:16,560 --> 01:28:19,280 Speaker 12: appeal to the Baser reasons sometimes with people you know. 1801 01:28:20,320 --> 01:28:22,679 Speaker 11: Well, if you would like to learn more about how 1802 01:28:22,760 --> 01:28:25,160 Speaker 11: a couple of guys in the counterculture movement in the 1803 01:28:25,200 --> 01:28:28,920 Speaker 11: eighties are responsible for the publication of the book that 1804 01:28:29,000 --> 01:28:32,320 Speaker 11: serves as the bible for modern Nazi terrorism, you can 1805 01:28:32,360 --> 01:28:35,920 Speaker 11: pick up a copy of Neo Nazi Terrorism and Countercultural Fascism. 1806 01:28:36,040 --> 01:28:39,799 Speaker 11: The Origins and Afterlife of James Mason's Siege by Spencer 1807 01:28:39,800 --> 01:28:42,920 Speaker 11: Sunshine from Routlige Press, and it's available I think wherever 1808 01:28:42,920 --> 01:28:45,000 Speaker 11: books are sold. I bought my copy directly from the 1809 01:28:45,040 --> 01:28:48,920 Speaker 11: publisher Routledge Press. I think it was only twenty seven dollars. 1810 01:28:49,120 --> 01:28:52,519 Speaker 11: You know, a bargain and a steal, So pick up 1811 01:28:52,560 --> 01:28:55,080 Speaker 11: a copy of that and where else can people find 1812 01:28:55,120 --> 01:28:55,439 Speaker 11: your work? 1813 01:28:55,439 --> 01:28:55,839 Speaker 14: Spencer? 1814 01:28:56,000 --> 01:28:57,519 Speaker 10: Thank you for now that you mentioned that. 1815 01:28:57,680 --> 01:29:01,599 Speaker 12: I am on all of the social usually at Transform 1816 01:29:01,680 --> 01:29:02,639 Speaker 12: sixt seven eight nine. 1817 01:29:03,640 --> 01:29:05,080 Speaker 10: Have a web page if you want, if you have 1818 01:29:05,080 --> 01:29:05,880 Speaker 10: an RSS feed. 1819 01:29:05,920 --> 01:29:08,200 Speaker 12: If someone has said this recently, they're like, it's actually 1820 01:29:08,240 --> 01:29:10,280 Speaker 12: one of the better ways to keep track of people. 1821 01:29:10,320 --> 01:29:13,519 Speaker 12: I was like, your followers billion people anyway, Spencer Sunshine 1822 01:29:13,560 --> 01:29:16,320 Speaker 12: dot com awesome. If you'd like to support anti fascist 1823 01:29:16,360 --> 01:29:18,400 Speaker 12: research and get a warm, fuzzy feeling, you should sign 1824 01:29:18,479 --> 01:29:20,599 Speaker 12: up for my Patreon for as little as two dollars 1825 01:29:20,600 --> 01:29:23,200 Speaker 12: a month. You can help me out with the rent 1826 01:29:23,640 --> 01:29:25,320 Speaker 12: and get some exclusive content. 1827 01:29:25,640 --> 01:29:27,360 Speaker 10: So yep, hell. 1828 01:29:27,280 --> 01:29:28,880 Speaker 9: Yeah, thank you so much for joining us today. 1829 01:29:29,120 --> 01:29:31,080 Speaker 10: Yeah, thanks for having me on the show. It's been great. 1830 01:29:51,720 --> 01:29:54,160 Speaker 10: Welcome to dick it apt here, a podcast where the 1831 01:29:54,200 --> 01:29:58,360 Speaker 10: singular it is seemingly irrelevant now because everything is happening 1832 01:29:58,479 --> 01:30:02,760 Speaker 10: all of the time. Host me along and one of 1833 01:30:02,800 --> 01:30:06,880 Speaker 10: the many, many, many chaotic things that has been going 1834 01:30:06,920 --> 01:30:09,840 Speaker 10: on over the last two weeks since Trump's power has 1835 01:30:09,960 --> 01:30:13,920 Speaker 10: been a bunch of funding freezes to the US federal 1836 01:30:13,960 --> 01:30:16,840 Speaker 10: government grant system. And I think to a lot of 1837 01:30:16,840 --> 01:30:20,120 Speaker 10: people that doesn't sound like an enormously big deal, but 1838 01:30:20,360 --> 01:30:25,000 Speaker 10: that is unbelievably catastrophic for like I would go so 1839 01:30:25,040 --> 01:30:26,960 Speaker 10: far to say, is like the survival of the human 1840 01:30:27,000 --> 01:30:29,080 Speaker 10: species for reasons they will get to in a second, 1841 01:30:29,439 --> 01:30:32,719 Speaker 10: but unbelievably bad for the quality of life of everyone 1842 01:30:33,080 --> 01:30:35,679 Speaker 10: on Earth. And to get to kind of a sense 1843 01:30:35,840 --> 01:30:39,200 Speaker 10: of exactly what this kind of stuff does, what these 1844 01:30:39,200 --> 01:30:42,480 Speaker 10: funding freezes do, and what the sort of threat, particularly 1845 01:30:42,560 --> 01:30:46,160 Speaker 10: to the future of American science is, I have brought 1846 01:30:46,200 --> 01:30:49,360 Speaker 10: in two people who are intimately familiar with this Arguvon Salis, 1847 01:30:49,360 --> 01:30:53,080 Speaker 10: who's a surgeon and professor of medicine, and friend of 1848 01:30:53,120 --> 01:30:57,160 Speaker 10: the show. Yeah, come on, yeah, definitely. I don't know 1849 01:30:57,200 --> 01:30:59,160 Speaker 10: why I had such a hessidant friend of the show, 1850 01:30:59,439 --> 01:31:01,160 Speaker 10: because it wasn't in my notes that was that was 1851 01:31:01,160 --> 01:31:03,400 Speaker 10: that ad living it, But yeah, front of the show 1852 01:31:03,439 --> 01:31:06,240 Speaker 10: kave Hoda, who is a Gas show entrologist and the 1853 01:31:06,280 --> 01:31:08,519 Speaker 10: host of the podcast House of Pods, and both of 1854 01:31:08,560 --> 01:31:10,680 Speaker 10: you two, welcome to the show. Thank you so much 1855 01:31:10,720 --> 01:31:11,400 Speaker 10: for having us. 1856 01:31:11,600 --> 01:31:12,280 Speaker 14: Yeah, thank you. 1857 01:31:12,600 --> 01:31:15,519 Speaker 7: I'm excited to be here for your most Persian episode ever. 1858 01:31:19,360 --> 01:31:19,880 Speaker 6: For sure. 1859 01:31:20,640 --> 01:31:23,920 Speaker 10: We may have done episodes of like that were like 1860 01:31:24,280 --> 01:31:25,160 Speaker 10: about a row. 1861 01:31:25,240 --> 01:31:29,080 Speaker 7: Yeah, this is a Persians a bit too Persian doctors 1862 01:31:29,200 --> 01:31:32,599 Speaker 7: talking about Trump is about as Persian as a good 1863 01:31:32,640 --> 01:31:35,200 Speaker 7: and you're not You're not overselling it. This is a 1864 01:31:35,520 --> 01:31:39,320 Speaker 7: large scale attack on the healthcare infrastructure of the United 1865 01:31:39,360 --> 01:31:43,120 Speaker 7: States on a massive level, So you're not lying. It 1866 01:31:43,320 --> 01:31:45,680 Speaker 7: is a serious, serious issue, not just for us, but 1867 01:31:45,680 --> 01:31:46,439 Speaker 7: for the whole world. 1868 01:31:46,920 --> 01:31:47,160 Speaker 6: Yeah. 1869 01:31:47,200 --> 01:31:48,720 Speaker 10: And one of the mean the places I want to start, 1870 01:31:48,760 --> 01:31:51,040 Speaker 10: I think is with because it was happening I think 1871 01:31:51,120 --> 01:31:54,479 Speaker 10: in n s FNIH a bit before this happened. But 1872 01:31:54,960 --> 01:31:57,640 Speaker 10: the OPM, the Office of Personnel Management, sent out this 1873 01:31:57,720 --> 01:32:01,760 Speaker 10: memo last week that was a it was nominally a 1874 01:32:01,800 --> 01:32:07,479 Speaker 10: response to this very weird Trump executive voter. That's him 1875 01:32:07,640 --> 01:32:10,200 Speaker 10: being like every single program that has to do with 1876 01:32:10,240 --> 01:32:12,360 Speaker 10: civil rights, which is like, so my my description was 1877 01:32:12,360 --> 01:32:13,760 Speaker 10: anything it has to do with civil rights at all, 1878 01:32:13,800 --> 01:32:17,040 Speaker 10: like gone His description of it is like DEI woke, 1879 01:32:17,400 --> 01:32:20,000 Speaker 10: So like anything it has to do with queer people, 1880 01:32:20,080 --> 01:32:22,920 Speaker 10: anything that has to do with like racial inequality, And 1881 01:32:22,960 --> 01:32:25,679 Speaker 10: they were supposed to like go through and review every 1882 01:32:25,720 --> 01:32:29,760 Speaker 10: single government grant program for anything, but. 1883 01:32:29,720 --> 01:32:34,200 Speaker 14: Don't forget he also included the gender ideology, which is 1884 01:32:34,200 --> 01:32:37,760 Speaker 14: a meaningless praise and the Green New Deal is. 1885 01:32:37,680 --> 01:32:40,160 Speaker 10: All part of it, yep, yep, yep, you know, and 1886 01:32:40,680 --> 01:32:43,559 Speaker 10: this is part of the raft of executive voters, particularly 1887 01:32:43,600 --> 01:32:46,559 Speaker 10: the anti trans executive voters. But OPM's response to this, 1888 01:32:46,560 --> 01:32:49,479 Speaker 10: again Awfulist Personnel Management's response was to just freeze literally 1889 01:32:49,520 --> 01:32:52,840 Speaker 10: every single grant program in the country. And this was 1890 01:32:52,880 --> 01:32:56,400 Speaker 10: everything from pell grants and like work study for college students, 1891 01:32:56,520 --> 01:33:00,000 Speaker 10: to like food aid for single mothers to my personal favorite. 1892 01:33:00,040 --> 01:33:01,800 Speaker 10: And I don't know why this never made it into 1893 01:33:01,800 --> 01:33:03,519 Speaker 10: the press because I'm apparently the only one who went 1894 01:33:03,560 --> 01:33:05,840 Speaker 10: through and read the list, but one of the things 1895 01:33:05,840 --> 01:33:08,919 Speaker 10: that he froze funding for was security patrols for nuclear 1896 01:33:08,920 --> 01:33:15,560 Speaker 10: weapons manufacturing sites. So like we almost like, why, yeah, 1897 01:33:15,640 --> 01:33:18,360 Speaker 10: why is that included? It was because literally what happened 1898 01:33:18,439 --> 01:33:21,679 Speaker 10: was they found a list of every single grant that 1899 01:33:21,840 --> 01:33:24,559 Speaker 10: like anyone does like and any like program that gives 1900 01:33:24,560 --> 01:33:26,200 Speaker 10: out grants and they froze all of them, and so 1901 01:33:26,280 --> 01:33:28,519 Speaker 10: like another one of them that when I said this 1902 01:33:28,600 --> 01:33:30,160 Speaker 10: is like, this is a threat to all life on Earth, 1903 01:33:30,160 --> 01:33:31,800 Speaker 10: I was not I was not joking here. One of 1904 01:33:31,840 --> 01:33:34,559 Speaker 10: the other ones was defunding one of the very important 1905 01:33:34,680 --> 01:33:37,960 Speaker 10: like international nuclear non proliferation organizations, like specifically the one 1906 01:33:37,960 --> 01:33:40,200 Speaker 10: that's there to make sure that like random people don't 1907 01:33:40,240 --> 01:33:44,400 Speaker 10: get like enriched uranium or like obtain nuclear weapons. So 1908 01:33:44,560 --> 01:33:48,400 Speaker 10: like we we dodged a like giant nuke sized bullet. 1909 01:33:48,439 --> 01:33:51,320 Speaker 10: When when like most of these programs got their money 1910 01:33:51,360 --> 01:33:54,040 Speaker 10: back after a judge was like, well, you obviously can't 1911 01:33:54,120 --> 01:33:58,360 Speaker 10: do this. This is so unbelievably illegal that it's astounding, 1912 01:33:58,640 --> 01:34:02,519 Speaker 10: like the Constitute should like very blatantly says that the 1913 01:34:02,560 --> 01:34:04,559 Speaker 10: power of the purse is Congress, not the President. 1914 01:34:04,560 --> 01:34:07,479 Speaker 14: Eight like stop, yeah, but I would just want to 1915 01:34:07,520 --> 01:34:10,960 Speaker 14: clarify for the people listening here that it wasn't just 1916 01:34:11,160 --> 01:34:16,080 Speaker 14: grant specifically, it was like all federal assistance. So one 1917 01:34:16,160 --> 01:34:19,040 Speaker 14: of the things that was very confusing and chaotic was 1918 01:34:19,479 --> 01:34:22,040 Speaker 14: this question of does this mean Snap is gone, Does 1919 01:34:22,040 --> 01:34:24,679 Speaker 14: this mean Wig is gone? What about Headstart? What about 1920 01:34:24,760 --> 01:34:27,960 Speaker 14: meals on wheels. I mean, there are tons of federal 1921 01:34:28,000 --> 01:34:30,960 Speaker 14: assistance programs out there, and they had only made an 1922 01:34:30,960 --> 01:34:34,960 Speaker 14: exception for Social Security and medic care in the memo, 1923 01:34:35,000 --> 01:34:37,840 Speaker 14: but not Medicaid. And what happened the next day, but 1924 01:34:37,880 --> 01:34:40,240 Speaker 14: the Medicaid portal went down right. 1925 01:34:40,320 --> 01:34:42,519 Speaker 10: Yeah, And it's it's chaotic too, because like all of 1926 01:34:42,560 --> 01:34:44,880 Speaker 10: the programs you just named were on the list of 1927 01:34:45,080 --> 01:34:47,000 Speaker 10: like programs that they were putting a freeze on, but 1928 01:34:47,040 --> 01:34:48,760 Speaker 10: then it wasn't clear what was going to happen with 1929 01:34:48,800 --> 01:34:52,679 Speaker 10: them end And it's still not right right. 1930 01:34:52,800 --> 01:34:54,200 Speaker 8: Yeah, we just have a judge. 1931 01:34:54,200 --> 01:34:56,240 Speaker 14: We have We found one judge with a backbone in 1932 01:34:56,280 --> 01:34:59,799 Speaker 14: the entire country so far, and he said, no, you cannot. 1933 01:35:00,120 --> 01:35:00,360 Speaker 6: Yeah. 1934 01:35:00,520 --> 01:35:03,080 Speaker 7: Yeah, I am surprised actually that Trump hasn't gone out 1935 01:35:03,120 --> 01:35:05,840 Speaker 7: on the attack. Maybe I just missed it, like attacking 1936 01:35:05,880 --> 01:35:09,760 Speaker 7: that judge, you know, but it is, I mean, what's 1937 01:35:09,800 --> 01:35:11,600 Speaker 7: so confusing to me is, you know, I get it, 1938 01:35:11,640 --> 01:35:15,519 Speaker 7: at least in some part of their weird internal terrible logic, 1939 01:35:15,920 --> 01:35:20,160 Speaker 7: transphobic logic. I get why they're doing some of the 1940 01:35:20,160 --> 01:35:23,639 Speaker 7: things they're doing, but then some of them don't even 1941 01:35:23,720 --> 01:35:28,240 Speaker 7: make sense within their own whack internal logic. Like when 1942 01:35:28,240 --> 01:35:31,439 Speaker 7: they scrub, for example, the CDC for all the terms 1943 01:35:31,479 --> 01:35:35,880 Speaker 7: that they didn't like, gender terms, transgender terms, things like that. 1944 01:35:36,240 --> 01:35:41,559 Speaker 7: They also scrub things like following maternal morbidity or opioid use, 1945 01:35:41,960 --> 01:35:45,840 Speaker 7: things that don't, at least on the surface, even fit 1946 01:35:46,280 --> 01:35:50,840 Speaker 7: with their attacks on woke ideology. So it seems like 1947 01:35:50,880 --> 01:35:53,479 Speaker 7: it's a complete mess to me what's happening. And it's 1948 01:35:53,680 --> 01:35:56,160 Speaker 7: what's terrifying about it is not just that it's a mess, 1949 01:35:56,200 --> 01:35:58,720 Speaker 7: but it is happening. I mean, they are doing it, 1950 01:35:58,760 --> 01:36:01,160 Speaker 7: they are pushing it, even though they clearly don't even 1951 01:36:01,200 --> 01:36:03,720 Speaker 7: seem to really know what they're doing or even have 1952 01:36:03,760 --> 01:36:05,679 Speaker 7: a great sense internally of what they're doing. 1953 01:36:06,400 --> 01:36:08,200 Speaker 10: I think that's the danger of this right now, is 1954 01:36:08,200 --> 01:36:09,880 Speaker 10: that this is revenge. 1955 01:36:10,000 --> 01:36:10,200 Speaker 6: Right. 1956 01:36:10,280 --> 01:36:12,760 Speaker 10: They're lashing out in sort of in pure anger and 1957 01:36:12,800 --> 01:36:16,400 Speaker 10: pure hatred, and they have been given control of an 1958 01:36:16,439 --> 01:36:18,960 Speaker 10: apparatus that they don't understand at all, Right, Like that, 1959 01:36:19,120 --> 01:36:21,280 Speaker 10: that's how you get defunding a nuclear police. That's how 1960 01:36:21,320 --> 01:36:25,200 Speaker 10: you get them defunding like the very Goldwater Memorial grant 1961 01:36:25,320 --> 01:36:28,320 Speaker 10: thing that gives money to kids who're writing essays about 1962 01:36:28,600 --> 01:36:32,280 Speaker 10: bury Goldwater. They don't understand what the state is and 1963 01:36:32,320 --> 01:36:33,880 Speaker 10: what it does, and they're just trying to take the 1964 01:36:33,920 --> 01:36:35,439 Speaker 10: whole thing apart, and they're just trying to sort of 1965 01:36:35,600 --> 01:36:37,360 Speaker 10: rampage their way through it. And it means that we're 1966 01:36:37,400 --> 01:36:39,400 Speaker 10: in this situation now where like for a long time, 1967 01:36:39,600 --> 01:36:42,439 Speaker 10: the line on like trans Rice was like, well, you 1968 01:36:42,439 --> 01:36:44,280 Speaker 10: should defend trans Rice because they're going to come for 1969 01:36:44,400 --> 01:36:47,120 Speaker 10: you next, And that's no longer true. What is actually 1970 01:36:47,120 --> 01:36:50,040 Speaker 10: happening here is in order to kill us, they are 1971 01:36:50,120 --> 01:36:52,600 Speaker 10: willing to kill everything. They're willing to let all of 1972 01:36:52,640 --> 01:36:56,559 Speaker 10: you die in nuclear fire. It's like specifically in order 1973 01:36:56,560 --> 01:36:58,880 Speaker 10: to hurt us, Right, That's the sort of line we're 1974 01:36:58,920 --> 01:37:01,160 Speaker 10: at where you know, all of these all of these 1975 01:37:01,160 --> 01:37:03,600 Speaker 10: sort of complicated systems and all of these sort of 1976 01:37:03,600 --> 01:37:07,639 Speaker 10: complicated funding mechanisms are just getting lit on fire by 1977 01:37:07,640 --> 01:37:10,960 Speaker 10: people who don't understand what they're doing and don't care. Right, 1978 01:37:11,120 --> 01:37:12,800 Speaker 10: just out of Spider or something. 1979 01:37:12,760 --> 01:37:15,280 Speaker 14: For sure, out of fight and hate. But I want 1980 01:37:15,320 --> 01:37:17,200 Speaker 14: to just take a step back and think about the 1981 01:37:17,240 --> 01:37:19,679 Speaker 14: fact that all of this is happening because of two 1982 01:37:19,800 --> 01:37:22,080 Speaker 14: versus three executive orders, depending how you think about it. 1983 01:37:22,200 --> 01:37:24,800 Speaker 14: But they're literally executive orders. They are not laws in 1984 01:37:24,840 --> 01:37:27,640 Speaker 14: the books in Congress does not pass anything. It's like 1985 01:37:27,760 --> 01:37:32,000 Speaker 14: this elderly man woke up and said, hey, let's get 1986 01:37:32,080 --> 01:37:35,640 Speaker 14: rid of DEI and DIA for example. Those are the 1987 01:37:35,720 --> 01:37:40,200 Speaker 14: terms they use exactly without saying what DEI is or 1988 01:37:40,240 --> 01:37:42,800 Speaker 14: what DEI A is. And then just I feel that 1989 01:37:42,840 --> 01:37:45,400 Speaker 14: we need to pause for a moment on the ADI 1990 01:37:45,560 --> 01:37:48,040 Speaker 14: A and they spell out, you know, as for accessible, 1991 01:37:48,680 --> 01:37:52,879 Speaker 14: wiping out everything related to accessibility is directly in violation 1992 01:37:53,000 --> 01:37:55,360 Speaker 14: of the ADA and makes no sense. And it is 1993 01:37:55,439 --> 01:37:58,280 Speaker 14: cool and all of that, but also just like legally 1994 01:37:58,360 --> 01:38:00,680 Speaker 14: it makes no kind of sense, and they're going to 1995 01:38:00,680 --> 01:38:03,280 Speaker 14: go after the ADA, which I'm guessing is part of 1996 01:38:03,360 --> 01:38:05,120 Speaker 14: their plan to the extent that there is a plan. 1997 01:38:05,520 --> 01:38:08,679 Speaker 14: But the two key executive orders here are the sex 1998 01:38:08,720 --> 01:38:11,639 Speaker 14: and gender. One that's not defending quote unquote defending women, 1999 01:38:12,080 --> 01:38:16,639 Speaker 14: that basically dictates that sex must be only male and female, 2000 01:38:16,640 --> 01:38:22,760 Speaker 14: thereby erasing intersex people completely, and that there's really they're 2001 01:38:22,960 --> 01:38:25,479 Speaker 14: essentially saying there's no such thing as gender and that 2002 01:38:25,720 --> 01:38:29,160 Speaker 14: the only genders that they see are willing to recognize 2003 01:38:29,200 --> 01:38:32,960 Speaker 14: are male and female. They're by erasing trans folks, intersect people, 2004 01:38:33,040 --> 01:38:35,840 Speaker 14: non binary folks, cutter a gender, queer, gender whood all 2005 01:38:35,880 --> 01:38:38,720 Speaker 14: of those people. So for them to go into like 2006 01:38:38,760 --> 01:38:41,680 Speaker 14: the CDC data sets, take them offline so that they 2007 01:38:41,720 --> 01:38:45,479 Speaker 14: can binarize whatever is there eliminate I'm assuming I don't 2008 01:38:45,479 --> 01:38:46,760 Speaker 14: I mean, I don't know that this was something that 2009 01:38:46,800 --> 01:38:49,599 Speaker 14: I'm assuming that that's what they're doing, taking any sex 2010 01:38:49,640 --> 01:38:51,439 Speaker 14: that thought male or female out of there, and then 2011 01:38:51,520 --> 01:38:54,600 Speaker 14: removing gender as a varia le because they've said that 2012 01:38:54,680 --> 01:38:58,280 Speaker 14: no grant funding should go to any assessment of gender period. 2013 01:38:59,040 --> 01:39:01,519 Speaker 14: So that's when you're talking to me about like how 2014 01:39:01,560 --> 01:39:04,240 Speaker 14: they're willing to throw everyone under the bus just to 2015 01:39:04,280 --> 01:39:07,960 Speaker 14: pursue this transphobic agenda about what you're talking about. They're 2016 01:39:07,960 --> 01:39:11,360 Speaker 14: willing to take huge lots of information off of the 2017 01:39:11,360 --> 01:39:15,160 Speaker 14: Internet so people can no longer research, or physician anyone 2018 01:39:15,160 --> 01:39:17,679 Speaker 14: else can no longer access this information, just to make 2019 01:39:17,760 --> 01:39:21,439 Speaker 14: sure that there's no hint or reference to anyone who 2020 01:39:21,520 --> 01:39:25,160 Speaker 14: is transgender. That seems to be like the key thing 2021 01:39:25,280 --> 01:39:26,920 Speaker 14: that they're trying to do with all of this. So 2022 01:39:26,960 --> 01:39:29,800 Speaker 14: they have thrown the entire government and take chaos and 2023 01:39:29,880 --> 01:39:33,200 Speaker 14: the lives of millions of people into chaos, all to 2024 01:39:33,320 --> 01:39:35,720 Speaker 14: remove the t in LGBT. 2025 01:39:36,120 --> 01:39:38,639 Speaker 10: Yeah, and the stuff that they're doing like the destruction 2026 01:39:38,720 --> 01:39:40,960 Speaker 10: of this research data, the way that it's been just 2027 01:39:41,040 --> 01:39:44,559 Speaker 10: like taken down and destroyed. Little parts of it have 2028 01:39:44,640 --> 01:39:47,080 Speaker 10: come back up after the sort of backlash, but you 2029 01:39:47,120 --> 01:39:49,799 Speaker 10: know what they're what they're doing is staging a digital 2030 01:39:49,880 --> 01:39:52,720 Speaker 10: version of the nazis burning all of the books at 2031 01:39:52,720 --> 01:39:55,320 Speaker 10: the sexual research. Like that's that's exposedly what they're doing. 2032 01:39:55,360 --> 01:39:58,640 Speaker 10: It's literally the same stuff, like it is research on 2033 01:39:59,200 --> 01:40:01,519 Speaker 10: queerness and trans people that they are lighting on fire. 2034 01:40:02,000 --> 01:40:02,240 Speaker 14: Yep. 2035 01:40:04,040 --> 01:40:06,880 Speaker 10: And you know you know who else lights research on 2036 01:40:07,000 --> 01:40:09,840 Speaker 10: queer and trans people on fire? It's it's the sponsors 2037 01:40:09,880 --> 01:40:11,720 Speaker 10: of this show. It's the products of services. 2038 01:40:12,320 --> 01:40:14,720 Speaker 7: Yeah, that's the way you get those big bucks. 2039 01:40:14,920 --> 01:40:28,920 Speaker 10: That's how you do it. That's professional broadcasting. And we 2040 01:40:29,080 --> 01:40:32,400 Speaker 10: are back. So I want to move from that to 2041 01:40:32,720 --> 01:40:35,720 Speaker 10: kind of the next phase after we got out of 2042 01:40:35,760 --> 01:40:40,400 Speaker 10: the sort of OPM like suspending everything phase, which has 2043 01:40:40,439 --> 01:40:43,639 Speaker 10: been this kind of this uncertainty around a whole bunch 2044 01:40:43,720 --> 01:40:47,960 Speaker 10: of the other funding agencies for science, the National Science Foundation, 2045 01:40:48,439 --> 01:40:50,960 Speaker 10: National Institute of Health. Can you talk a bit about 2046 01:40:51,000 --> 01:40:53,519 Speaker 10: what's been going on with grants there before we move 2047 01:40:53,560 --> 01:40:56,000 Speaker 10: into like how this whole process works. 2048 01:40:56,360 --> 01:40:59,880 Speaker 14: Yeah, So the first line that something was materially going 2049 01:40:59,920 --> 01:41:03,960 Speaker 14: to change after these executive orders. As I recall, I'm 2050 01:41:04,000 --> 01:41:06,639 Speaker 14: living this along with everyone else, and what is time. 2051 01:41:06,920 --> 01:41:09,519 Speaker 14: But the first thing that I recall is the study 2052 01:41:09,520 --> 01:41:14,760 Speaker 14: section being canceled. The study sections are meeting where scientists 2053 01:41:14,760 --> 01:41:19,120 Speaker 14: come together. They each will have read various grant proposals 2054 01:41:19,240 --> 01:41:22,479 Speaker 14: and scored them on a number of different dimensions, and 2055 01:41:22,520 --> 01:41:25,559 Speaker 14: then they come together and discussed. They don't discuss all 2056 01:41:25,600 --> 01:41:27,320 Speaker 14: of them, by the way, They only discuss the ones 2057 01:41:27,320 --> 01:41:29,760 Speaker 14: that have that seem to have the most merit, and 2058 01:41:29,800 --> 01:41:33,040 Speaker 14: then out of those they make recommendations for which ones 2059 01:41:33,080 --> 01:41:37,960 Speaker 14: they believe should get funded. So these are a critical 2060 01:41:38,080 --> 01:41:40,920 Speaker 14: part of the process by which the government gives out 2061 01:41:40,960 --> 01:41:44,439 Speaker 14: funds for research. If these meetings do not happen, people 2062 01:41:44,600 --> 01:41:48,280 Speaker 14: grants are not getting evaluated, assessed, and recommended for funding. 2063 01:41:48,400 --> 01:41:50,559 Speaker 14: That means they're not getting the funding. That means they're 2064 01:41:50,560 --> 01:41:53,519 Speaker 14: not hiring people, or they're having to fire people they 2065 01:41:53,560 --> 01:41:55,840 Speaker 14: already had in their layoff, people they already had in 2066 01:41:55,880 --> 01:41:59,000 Speaker 14: their lab. They're not able to continue the important work 2067 01:41:59,080 --> 01:42:02,719 Speaker 14: that they're doing. They may lose their job. Like really 2068 01:42:02,720 --> 01:42:05,240 Speaker 14: truly people can lose their job because they were not 2069 01:42:05,320 --> 01:42:09,759 Speaker 14: able to secure enough funding to support themselves and their labs. 2070 01:42:09,760 --> 01:42:12,680 Speaker 14: So these are really really important meetings, and those have 2071 01:42:12,720 --> 01:42:15,920 Speaker 14: been canceled for both the NSF and the nih for 2072 01:42:16,120 --> 01:42:19,760 Speaker 14: at least the last couple of weeks, And as of yesterday, 2073 01:42:20,000 --> 01:42:23,280 Speaker 14: I saw doctor Megan Ray said that her or not 2074 01:42:23,400 --> 01:42:26,519 Speaker 14: maybe not her, but that study sections were canceled yesterday 2075 01:42:26,520 --> 01:42:28,800 Speaker 14: that were due to happen today. So there had been 2076 01:42:29,000 --> 01:42:32,960 Speaker 14: some communication around perhaps the free of those activities ending 2077 01:42:32,960 --> 01:42:35,679 Speaker 14: on February first today that we're recording as February third, 2078 01:42:36,320 --> 01:42:38,720 Speaker 14: and those study sections for today were canceled. On the 2079 01:42:38,720 --> 01:42:43,879 Speaker 14: other hand, NSS, which is obviously a separate organization, has 2080 01:42:44,040 --> 01:42:47,719 Speaker 14: informally i've heard, decided that they were going to resume 2081 01:42:47,800 --> 01:42:50,160 Speaker 14: from study sections, although they haven't rexamned just yet. 2082 01:42:50,360 --> 01:42:52,720 Speaker 7: And if I did add, just to be totally clear 2083 01:42:52,760 --> 01:42:57,680 Speaker 7: with your listeners, these are incredibly important organizations for discovery 2084 01:42:58,160 --> 01:43:03,040 Speaker 7: of new medical breakthroughs and for pushing science forward. For 2085 01:43:03,160 --> 01:43:06,080 Speaker 7: the NAIH, for example, the nih IS is a big 2086 01:43:06,080 --> 01:43:08,960 Speaker 7: part of the reason we have mRNA vaccines now. They 2087 01:43:08,960 --> 01:43:11,959 Speaker 7: were the ones helping to promote that research for decades 2088 01:43:12,240 --> 01:43:14,519 Speaker 7: before we were able to turn them into vaccines, and 2089 01:43:14,680 --> 01:43:16,400 Speaker 7: because a lot of what they did that we're able 2090 01:43:16,400 --> 01:43:20,400 Speaker 7: to do that when we're looking for a new breakthroughs 2091 01:43:20,439 --> 01:43:22,800 Speaker 7: and we're looking for something where patient comes to us 2092 01:43:23,000 --> 01:43:25,720 Speaker 7: and they're like, isn't there anything We've tried everything, isn't 2093 01:43:25,720 --> 01:43:27,599 Speaker 7: there anything that we could at least try or some 2094 01:43:27,680 --> 01:43:30,680 Speaker 7: trial that we could be involved in. That's where we 2095 01:43:30,760 --> 01:43:34,040 Speaker 7: find these things. These are the things that we're talking about, 2096 01:43:34,120 --> 01:43:38,920 Speaker 7: these really important healthcare infrastructure that we're discussing. 2097 01:43:39,760 --> 01:43:43,559 Speaker 10: Yeah, and you know between NAH and National Science Foundation 2098 01:43:43,720 --> 01:43:45,879 Speaker 10: and you know, Department of Energy is having a similar 2099 01:43:45,920 --> 01:43:48,760 Speaker 10: thing to this because Department of Energy funds all like 2100 01:43:49,439 --> 01:43:51,680 Speaker 10: hy energy physics research, so all of your sort of 2101 01:43:51,720 --> 01:43:54,720 Speaker 10: like particle accelerator or stuff like that. It's not just 2102 01:43:54,800 --> 01:43:57,439 Speaker 10: sort of like the National Labs for example, that they 2103 01:43:57,439 --> 01:43:59,519 Speaker 10: get funding from these places, although you know National Labs 2104 01:43:59,560 --> 01:44:01,679 Speaker 10: are like, you know, you get your funding from grants 2105 01:44:01,720 --> 01:44:03,920 Speaker 10: like everyone else. But you know, I mean this is 2106 01:44:03,960 --> 01:44:05,760 Speaker 10: this is all the way down to the level of 2107 01:44:05,880 --> 01:44:10,840 Speaker 10: like undergrads and college chemistry labs, like they're they are 2108 01:44:10,880 --> 01:44:14,200 Speaker 10: getting paid out of these grants from National Science Foundation, 2109 01:44:14,400 --> 01:44:17,760 Speaker 10: from the National Institute's for Health, like all of these 2110 01:44:17,800 --> 01:44:20,479 Speaker 10: all of these institutions pay out everything, and it's like 2111 01:44:20,560 --> 01:44:25,880 Speaker 10: this is the basis of how all science almost all science. 2112 01:44:25,960 --> 01:44:28,439 Speaker 10: Like there's some private sector stuff, but the thing is 2113 01:44:28,479 --> 01:44:31,840 Speaker 10: like the giant private like Bell Labs right, like you're 2114 01:44:31,880 --> 01:44:35,040 Speaker 10: your old school giant private sector. Here's our giant R 2115 01:44:35,080 --> 01:44:37,200 Speaker 10: and D thing. Like that's all kind of gone, so 2116 01:44:37,520 --> 01:44:39,040 Speaker 10: you know, like the only people who are getting funded 2117 01:44:39,040 --> 01:44:42,759 Speaker 10: by this are like weird startup guys. And it's like, Okay, 2118 01:44:42,800 --> 01:44:45,760 Speaker 10: look look look what they've invented in the last like 2119 01:44:46,240 --> 01:44:51,919 Speaker 10: fifteen years. It's like cryptocurrency NFTs, which is cryptocurrency again, Arranos, 2120 01:44:52,120 --> 01:44:56,599 Speaker 10: don't forget Yeah, sarrados, the metaverse, juice row, like they're 2121 01:44:56,640 --> 01:44:58,920 Speaker 10: doing great. It's really great. And people will be like, oh, 2122 01:44:58,920 --> 01:45:01,400 Speaker 10: they invented a ey. It's like no, so National Labs 2123 01:45:01,400 --> 01:45:04,360 Speaker 10: were using those AA algorithms like a decade and a 2124 01:45:04,400 --> 01:45:06,760 Speaker 10: half ago. It's like, yeah, the generative blah blah. Okay, 2125 01:45:07,000 --> 01:45:09,439 Speaker 10: we're not We're not here to get into me complaining 2126 01:45:09,439 --> 01:45:12,080 Speaker 10: about generative AI. Go go go go listen to edgit 2127 01:45:12,200 --> 01:45:16,080 Speaker 10: runs entire Like yeah. 2128 01:45:15,520 --> 01:45:17,640 Speaker 14: Yeah, I mean, I think the bottom line of what 2129 01:45:17,680 --> 01:45:19,640 Speaker 14: you're trying to communicate here is that a lot of 2130 01:45:19,840 --> 01:45:24,719 Speaker 14: scientific and medical breakthroughs have come from labs and from 2131 01:45:25,040 --> 01:45:28,200 Speaker 14: researchers who have been funded by the NSF and the 2132 01:45:28,360 --> 01:45:31,240 Speaker 14: NIH and I will just say as an academic, these 2133 01:45:31,240 --> 01:45:36,400 Speaker 14: are certainly the kind of premiere funding opportunities. 2134 01:45:35,560 --> 01:45:36,200 Speaker 6: That we have. 2135 01:45:36,439 --> 01:45:39,080 Speaker 14: Like it also is really critical in the careers of 2136 01:45:39,680 --> 01:45:42,160 Speaker 14: researchers to be able to show that their work is 2137 01:45:42,240 --> 01:45:44,240 Speaker 14: worthy of this kind of funding. And that's part of 2138 01:45:44,280 --> 01:45:47,360 Speaker 14: why I would think people's jobs, yes, the people we 2139 01:45:47,439 --> 01:45:50,000 Speaker 14: pay off of our grants, but also people like me, 2140 01:45:50,120 --> 01:45:53,880 Speaker 14: our jobs can be really dependent on whether we get 2141 01:45:53,880 --> 01:45:54,720 Speaker 14: this funding or not. 2142 01:45:55,280 --> 01:45:58,439 Speaker 10: And it's a generational thing too, because the students also 2143 01:45:58,520 --> 01:46:01,120 Speaker 10: need this funding. And so people people who undergrads, particularly 2144 01:46:01,160 --> 01:46:04,320 Speaker 10: people who are like doctoral students, like their research, right, 2145 01:46:04,439 --> 01:46:07,559 Speaker 10: like the stuff that they're doing while they're in graduate school, 2146 01:46:07,560 --> 01:46:10,040 Speaker 10: like getting PhD so they can become scientists. That's all 2147 01:46:10,120 --> 01:46:13,000 Speaker 10: also like funded by these grants. And if that stuff 2148 01:46:13,160 --> 01:46:16,080 Speaker 10: goes away, like, it's not just that you're obliterating this 2149 01:46:16,200 --> 01:46:19,080 Speaker 10: generation of science, like you're decapping the next like three 2150 01:46:19,200 --> 01:46:22,000 Speaker 10: generations of scientists, right because each one of them down 2151 01:46:22,000 --> 01:46:24,600 Speaker 10: the line suddenly doesn't have for the research experience that 2152 01:46:24,600 --> 01:46:27,000 Speaker 10: they're supposed to have. Exactly, yeah, right. 2153 01:46:27,040 --> 01:46:29,200 Speaker 14: And also, who would want to go into science if 2154 01:46:29,240 --> 01:46:31,760 Speaker 14: it's going to be invited, right, if they's just going 2155 01:46:31,840 --> 01:46:34,000 Speaker 14: to be like some random person who goes into the 2156 01:46:34,040 --> 01:46:36,519 Speaker 14: White House and never mind, we're not doing that anymore. 2157 01:46:36,560 --> 01:46:39,639 Speaker 14: Who wants to be exposed to those kinds of winds. 2158 01:46:39,880 --> 01:46:44,040 Speaker 7: A lot of the smartest doctors and scientists I know 2159 01:46:44,840 --> 01:46:47,400 Speaker 7: that tend to be risk averse people. I mean, there's 2160 01:46:47,439 --> 01:46:50,479 Speaker 7: a lot of people the CDC that could try to 2161 01:46:50,600 --> 01:46:54,080 Speaker 7: maybe sue for you know, for not being able to 2162 01:46:54,160 --> 01:46:55,880 Speaker 7: use the terms that they want to use and study 2163 01:46:55,920 --> 01:46:58,240 Speaker 7: the things they want to study, and they might even 2164 01:46:58,439 --> 01:47:00,439 Speaker 7: I don't know, maybe they could win. You talk to 2165 01:47:00,520 --> 01:47:03,439 Speaker 7: Laurier about that. Seems unlikely because they're not private sector. 2166 01:47:03,560 --> 01:47:06,920 Speaker 7: But to them, they're not going to because they're living 2167 01:47:06,960 --> 01:47:09,640 Speaker 7: paycheck to paycheck. To some of these people that are 2168 01:47:09,640 --> 01:47:12,280 Speaker 7: at the lower levels, people that aren't making a ton 2169 01:47:12,320 --> 01:47:14,759 Speaker 7: of money and they have livelihoods that they're trying to maintain, 2170 01:47:14,800 --> 01:47:17,080 Speaker 7: they're not going to try and rock the boat when 2171 01:47:17,080 --> 01:47:20,080 Speaker 7: it comes to these things. It's putting them in a 2172 01:47:20,080 --> 01:47:24,559 Speaker 7: really tenuous position already. They're already worried about their next grant, 2173 01:47:24,680 --> 01:47:27,240 Speaker 7: their next however, they're going to fund their labs. 2174 01:47:28,160 --> 01:47:30,120 Speaker 14: Yeah, And I just want to highlight that postdocs I 2175 01:47:30,160 --> 01:47:34,760 Speaker 14: think are particularly vulnerable because they are often like the 2176 01:47:35,080 --> 01:47:38,480 Speaker 14: NFF where You's actually demonstrated a girl, they aren't as 2177 01:47:38,479 --> 01:47:41,760 Speaker 14: said like, they're definitely often living paycheck paycheck. And what 2178 01:47:41,800 --> 01:47:43,960 Speaker 14: the NFF breeze did was that it made it so 2179 01:47:44,120 --> 01:47:47,200 Speaker 14: floks could not get their next paycheck because we were 2180 01:47:47,280 --> 01:47:48,880 Speaker 14: this was happening at the end of the month, right, 2181 01:47:48,960 --> 01:47:52,080 Speaker 14: so it was delaying people getting their next paycheck. And 2182 01:47:52,120 --> 01:47:54,880 Speaker 14: in particular, and talking about postdocs, yes, it can affect 2183 01:47:54,920 --> 01:47:58,519 Speaker 14: graduate students as well, but a lot of postdoc funding, 2184 01:47:58,680 --> 01:48:00,800 Speaker 14: like one of the grand that I have actually we 2185 01:48:00,840 --> 01:48:05,439 Speaker 14: worked directly with postdoctoral and some predoctoral, but many postdoctoral 2186 01:48:05,479 --> 01:48:09,439 Speaker 14: training programs that fund postoc And to the extent that 2187 01:48:09,520 --> 01:48:12,240 Speaker 14: any of those grants are put on hold, that is 2188 01:48:12,640 --> 01:48:16,240 Speaker 14: threatening the income of people who really don't have buffer, 2189 01:48:16,400 --> 01:48:18,320 Speaker 14: who cannot afford to not get paid. 2190 01:48:18,640 --> 01:48:20,920 Speaker 10: And also, you know, and this is another aspect of 2191 01:48:20,960 --> 01:48:25,280 Speaker 10: this too, and I really doubt they understand this, but 2192 01:48:25,479 --> 01:48:27,760 Speaker 10: you know, there's also a lot of postocs who are 2193 01:48:27,760 --> 01:48:30,479 Speaker 10: not from the US right there, who are either international 2194 01:48:30,479 --> 01:48:32,720 Speaker 10: student or international students who are just who are you know, 2195 01:48:32,760 --> 01:48:36,720 Speaker 10: coming in from other countries and those people, if you 2196 01:48:36,800 --> 01:48:39,200 Speaker 10: suddenly don't have a grant, you don't have a job, 2197 01:48:39,760 --> 01:48:43,240 Speaker 10: and that is really really bad for your immigration status. 2198 01:48:43,720 --> 01:48:45,599 Speaker 10: Like that, that is enough to get you kicked out 2199 01:48:45,640 --> 01:48:48,240 Speaker 10: of the US. And this is the thing that's constantly 2200 01:48:48,320 --> 01:48:51,759 Speaker 10: leveraged in sort of labor organizing, right or like one 2201 01:48:51,800 --> 01:48:54,439 Speaker 10: of the threats that universities will make. Usually they do 2202 01:48:54,479 --> 01:48:56,960 Speaker 10: it implicitly. Sometimes they'll just go out and say it 2203 01:48:57,160 --> 01:48:59,200 Speaker 10: very legally, will be like, Okay, if if you this 2204 01:48:59,320 --> 01:49:02,680 Speaker 10: postoc like you, this grad student like tries to like 2205 01:49:02,760 --> 01:49:05,280 Speaker 10: join this union, like your your legal status in the 2206 01:49:05,320 --> 01:49:08,639 Speaker 10: US is going to be compromised. But that's that's another 2207 01:49:08,720 --> 01:49:12,680 Speaker 10: sort of risk from this is like those people's ability 2208 01:49:12,800 --> 01:49:19,639 Speaker 10: to stay in the US and not get imported basically exactly, yeah, exactly. 2209 01:49:19,680 --> 01:49:22,000 Speaker 7: And then then we talk about bringing in you know, 2210 01:49:22,080 --> 01:49:23,800 Speaker 7: I know there's a lot of internal debate right now 2211 01:49:23,800 --> 01:49:26,679 Speaker 7: between the publican party on you know, bringing in people 2212 01:49:26,720 --> 01:49:30,040 Speaker 7: to work these jobs and bringing in these minds. But 2213 01:49:30,479 --> 01:49:33,519 Speaker 7: this is a clear example of where the United States 2214 01:49:33,520 --> 01:49:36,080 Speaker 7: has excelled in the past. We've been able to bring 2215 01:49:36,120 --> 01:49:38,639 Speaker 7: in great minds from all over the world to help 2216 01:49:38,720 --> 01:49:42,000 Speaker 7: us work on research and to help us come to 2217 01:49:42,080 --> 01:49:44,040 Speaker 7: work in these labs. I mean you go to like 2218 01:49:44,200 --> 01:49:46,799 Speaker 7: USA Staff and Stanford and you see these people working 2219 01:49:46,800 --> 01:49:50,960 Speaker 7: these labs on important stuff. And that's another like, that's 2220 01:49:51,080 --> 01:49:53,000 Speaker 7: that's that's something we're going to lose. And I hope 2221 01:49:53,000 --> 01:49:56,040 Speaker 7: we don't lose it permanently. I hope it's not, you 2222 01:49:56,080 --> 01:49:59,120 Speaker 7: know something like you say, well, last generations are worth 2223 01:49:59,120 --> 01:50:01,320 Speaker 7: of damage, but it's hard to see how it won't 2224 01:50:01,360 --> 01:50:01,880 Speaker 7: at this point. 2225 01:50:02,640 --> 01:50:03,360 Speaker 6: Yeah, I was just. 2226 01:50:03,320 --> 01:50:06,320 Speaker 14: Looking up one hundred percent agree and to your point 2227 01:50:06,320 --> 01:50:09,479 Speaker 14: about how much of the science and even other amazing 2228 01:50:09,520 --> 01:50:12,400 Speaker 14: things that are done in the country are done by immigrants. 2229 01:50:12,800 --> 01:50:16,120 Speaker 14: I think it's over just over a third of Nobel 2230 01:50:16,160 --> 01:50:19,439 Speaker 14: laureates from the United States have been immigrants to. 2231 01:50:19,439 --> 01:50:21,360 Speaker 10: The United States, you know, And it's sort of a 2232 01:50:21,439 --> 01:50:25,280 Speaker 10: nationalist thing, right, but like for ninety nine percent of 2233 01:50:25,280 --> 01:50:28,200 Speaker 10: the time for better like, the US has been very 2234 01:50:28,280 --> 01:50:31,080 Speaker 10: very good at absorbing other country scientists when you know 2235 01:50:31,120 --> 01:50:33,680 Speaker 10: this like we got up you know, okay, so like 2236 01:50:33,960 --> 01:50:35,760 Speaker 10: it's hard to take too much credit for it because 2237 01:50:35,760 --> 01:50:37,679 Speaker 10: we also took a bunch of scientists from the NAZS, 2238 01:50:37,720 --> 01:50:40,400 Speaker 10: like from the actual Nazis, but we also like a 2239 01:50:40,840 --> 01:50:43,080 Speaker 10: bunch of very famous US scientists, Like we're in the 2240 01:50:43,200 --> 01:50:45,320 Speaker 10: US because they were fleeing the rise of the Nazis, 2241 01:50:45,560 --> 01:50:47,960 Speaker 10: And you know, like we are looking at a situation 2242 01:50:48,000 --> 01:50:49,400 Speaker 10: where we are going to be the opposite of this, 2243 01:50:49,439 --> 01:50:52,200 Speaker 10: where like our scientists are going to be fleeing everywhere 2244 01:50:52,240 --> 01:50:56,360 Speaker 10: else because our government is being run by these people. 2245 01:50:57,120 --> 01:50:59,679 Speaker 14: Yeah, and I wanted to highlight I think that's liter 2246 01:50:59,680 --> 01:51:02,040 Speaker 14: all really great points about the effect of not getting 2247 01:51:02,040 --> 01:51:04,800 Speaker 14: the funding and who it trickles down to. But I 2248 01:51:04,840 --> 01:51:07,680 Speaker 14: also wanted to highlight that there's two different kind of 2249 01:51:08,040 --> 01:51:11,800 Speaker 14: ways that the funding can be withheld. The one is 2250 01:51:12,280 --> 01:51:15,640 Speaker 14: just that review process and not actually reviewing grants. Right, So, 2251 01:51:15,760 --> 01:51:18,719 Speaker 14: like I personally submitted a proposal in the fall, who 2252 01:51:18,760 --> 01:51:21,759 Speaker 14: knows if when that will get discussed. There are people 2253 01:51:21,800 --> 01:51:23,960 Speaker 14: in that kind of position where they maybe were dependent 2254 01:51:24,120 --> 01:51:27,040 Speaker 14: on or really hoping to get funding this round, and 2255 01:51:27,080 --> 01:51:29,880 Speaker 14: now they don't know if or when that proposal will 2256 01:51:29,880 --> 01:51:31,920 Speaker 14: get reviewed. Of course, you never know if you're going 2257 01:51:32,000 --> 01:51:33,840 Speaker 14: to get funded, but to not even have a chance 2258 01:51:33,880 --> 01:51:38,680 Speaker 14: at review is an unanticipated barrier. Then on the other side, 2259 01:51:38,840 --> 01:51:42,960 Speaker 14: there's people who have been funded and are in the 2260 01:51:42,960 --> 01:51:45,120 Speaker 14: position that I'm in, which is not knowing whether I'm 2261 01:51:45,120 --> 01:51:49,600 Speaker 14: going to receive the next payment. Because the NIH so 2262 01:51:49,680 --> 01:51:52,320 Speaker 14: I have a five year grant and we are currently 2263 01:51:52,360 --> 01:51:55,679 Speaker 14: in year three. Every year you have to submit a 2264 01:51:55,760 --> 01:51:59,639 Speaker 14: status update on your project, and then they determine based 2265 01:51:59,640 --> 01:52:02,439 Speaker 14: online of different things, including what budget they are given 2266 01:52:02,560 --> 01:52:05,559 Speaker 14: from Congress, how much of the funds that they had 2267 01:52:05,560 --> 01:52:08,400 Speaker 14: originally projected they'll be able to give to you. And 2268 01:52:09,040 --> 01:52:11,439 Speaker 14: there are as you can imagine, a lot of people 2269 01:52:11,479 --> 01:52:15,519 Speaker 14: who are doing work that's related to health disparities, help equity, 2270 01:52:15,680 --> 01:52:19,840 Speaker 14: women's health, LGBTQ health, et cetera, who now do not 2271 01:52:20,040 --> 01:52:23,880 Speaker 14: know if our work falls under quote unquote DEI or 2272 01:52:23,920 --> 01:52:27,559 Speaker 14: deia or gender ideology or all these vague terms that 2273 01:52:27,600 --> 01:52:31,719 Speaker 14: the administration is using, and so we actually don't know whether, 2274 01:52:32,240 --> 01:52:33,640 Speaker 14: Like for me, I don't know if I'm going to 2275 01:52:33,680 --> 01:52:35,720 Speaker 14: get my next set of funds. In July, so I 2276 01:52:35,760 --> 01:52:38,519 Speaker 14: was in the process of interviewing to hire someone to 2277 01:52:38,600 --> 01:52:41,880 Speaker 14: join my lab, and I genuinely don't know whether I 2278 01:52:41,880 --> 01:52:45,799 Speaker 14: should hire someone at knowing that I may lose funds 2279 01:52:45,800 --> 01:52:49,040 Speaker 14: in you know, five months, or do I just try 2280 01:52:49,080 --> 01:52:51,320 Speaker 14: to make do without and then that's a job that 2281 01:52:51,360 --> 01:52:53,479 Speaker 14: no one gets. And if you play that out over 2282 01:52:53,560 --> 01:52:56,599 Speaker 14: the three hundred thousand people were funded in various ways 2283 01:52:56,600 --> 01:53:00,080 Speaker 14: by the NIH, you start to understand the scope of 2284 01:53:00,160 --> 01:53:01,200 Speaker 14: damage was being done. 2285 01:53:01,240 --> 01:53:01,400 Speaker 6: Here. 2286 01:53:02,080 --> 01:53:07,760 Speaker 7: Can you tell people what your current grant is? And 2287 01:53:07,880 --> 01:53:12,560 Speaker 7: because I think that is pertin into this conversation, yes, yes. 2288 01:53:12,200 --> 01:53:15,920 Speaker 14: Yes, you're right. Okay, So my grant is called ending 2289 01:53:16,160 --> 01:53:20,240 Speaker 14: sexual Harassment Teaching of Principal Investigators at a Q acronym 2290 01:53:20,400 --> 01:53:23,000 Speaker 14: E stops. So our goal is to try to help 2291 01:53:23,040 --> 01:53:27,479 Speaker 14: people intervene when there is sexual harassment, with the ultimate 2292 01:53:27,479 --> 01:53:30,840 Speaker 14: goal decreasing the amount of sexual harassment that's happening in 2293 01:53:30,920 --> 01:53:32,080 Speaker 14: biomedical research. 2294 01:53:32,240 --> 01:53:34,400 Speaker 10: Oh they don't, they don't what you do with that? 2295 01:53:34,720 --> 01:53:34,760 Speaker 12: Like? 2296 01:53:35,560 --> 01:53:40,880 Speaker 7: Oh, no, right, because one of the great terrible ironies 2297 01:53:40,920 --> 01:53:43,559 Speaker 7: of this whole thing is that their argument is that 2298 01:53:43,560 --> 01:53:46,320 Speaker 7: they're doing a lot of this to protect women, the 2299 01:53:47,240 --> 01:53:50,560 Speaker 7: sanctity of women or whatever this is. You know, I 2300 01:53:50,960 --> 01:53:53,720 Speaker 7: am hopeful that I'm wrong for you. I hope that 2301 01:53:54,600 --> 01:53:56,760 Speaker 7: this is not the case. But I could see them 2302 01:53:56,840 --> 01:54:01,280 Speaker 7: very easily saying that this somehow fits underwoke ideology, and 2303 01:54:01,360 --> 01:54:05,439 Speaker 7: even though it's something clearly that is designed to help 2304 01:54:05,880 --> 01:54:08,439 Speaker 7: not just women, but a lot of women could benefit 2305 01:54:08,479 --> 01:54:09,559 Speaker 7: from this, you know. 2306 01:54:10,600 --> 01:54:14,160 Speaker 14: Yeah, and to your point, like everyone is at risk 2307 01:54:14,200 --> 01:54:17,200 Speaker 14: for hearing things sexual harassment, it's just that the majority 2308 01:54:17,240 --> 01:54:19,840 Speaker 14: of folks who experience that are women or sexual and 2309 01:54:19,920 --> 01:54:23,880 Speaker 14: gender minorities. And so yeah, I've really, obviously, as you 2310 01:54:23,880 --> 01:54:27,439 Speaker 14: can imagine've been thinking a lot about how they are 2311 01:54:27,479 --> 01:54:31,240 Speaker 14: interpreting these words that they're using and whether sexual harassment, 2312 01:54:31,240 --> 01:54:33,160 Speaker 14: which by the way, is a form of discrimination, Like 2313 01:54:33,320 --> 01:54:35,800 Speaker 14: is that DEI is stopping discrimination? 2314 01:54:36,160 --> 01:54:37,200 Speaker 10: DEI? 2315 01:54:36,720 --> 01:54:37,280 Speaker 6: I believe? 2316 01:54:37,960 --> 01:54:38,320 Speaker 7: Who? 2317 01:54:38,720 --> 01:54:38,960 Speaker 6: Yeah? 2318 01:54:39,440 --> 01:54:42,080 Speaker 7: Well, you know, quickly, if I may, I can go 2319 01:54:42,120 --> 01:54:46,480 Speaker 7: over this. There was this email that was dispersed from 2320 01:54:46,560 --> 01:54:49,320 Speaker 7: the CDC about terms that were no longer going to 2321 01:54:49,320 --> 01:54:51,400 Speaker 7: be used, that were going to be scrubbed from the 2322 01:54:51,440 --> 01:54:56,680 Speaker 7: CDC's databases, and they included words like gender, transgender, pregnant person, 2323 01:54:56,760 --> 01:55:01,400 Speaker 7: pregnant people, LGBT, transsexual, non by binary, non binary. 2324 01:55:02,120 --> 01:55:05,280 Speaker 10: They use both to one with the hyphene hyphen. 2325 01:55:05,360 --> 01:55:08,120 Speaker 7: Signed male at birth, assign female at birth, biologically male, 2326 01:55:08,200 --> 01:55:11,520 Speaker 7: or biologically female. So anything that terms like that they're 2327 01:55:11,560 --> 01:55:13,880 Speaker 7: gonna scrub Wait, let me, can. 2328 01:55:13,800 --> 01:55:16,760 Speaker 14: I just clarify that, because actually it's even worse, I 2329 01:55:16,800 --> 01:55:19,160 Speaker 14: think than what you just described because what they actually 2330 01:55:19,760 --> 01:55:22,040 Speaker 14: said in that email, as I understand it, is that 2331 01:55:22,080 --> 01:55:24,480 Speaker 14: there's all these researchers who work at the CDC. So 2332 01:55:24,520 --> 01:55:28,320 Speaker 14: they said, if you have submitted a manuscript for publication 2333 01:55:28,520 --> 01:55:31,560 Speaker 14: to any scientific or medical journal that has any of 2334 01:55:31,640 --> 01:55:37,440 Speaker 14: these words in it, you must retract that manuscript. So 2335 01:55:37,440 --> 01:55:40,320 Speaker 14: it's even much much broader than just what's on the 2336 01:55:40,360 --> 01:55:44,040 Speaker 14: CDC's website. It's any work that anyone employed by the 2337 01:55:44,040 --> 01:55:46,640 Speaker 14: CDC has done, any research I could say that they've 2338 01:55:46,680 --> 01:55:49,320 Speaker 14: done that they are in the process of publishing. They 2339 01:55:49,360 --> 01:55:52,920 Speaker 14: have been asked to rescind that work so that they 2340 01:55:52,920 --> 01:55:57,360 Speaker 14: can remove these god awful words, right. That are actually 2341 01:55:57,440 --> 01:56:00,880 Speaker 14: words that are used routinely in science, but they can 2342 01:56:00,920 --> 01:56:03,920 Speaker 14: no longer have them in their manuscripts. And how nonsensical 2343 01:56:03,960 --> 01:56:07,600 Speaker 14: would their manuscript be without the word? I mean it, Yeah, 2344 01:56:07,680 --> 01:56:08,280 Speaker 14: it's terrible. 2345 01:56:08,600 --> 01:56:11,120 Speaker 7: The other thing that blows my mind about this is 2346 01:56:11,200 --> 01:56:15,640 Speaker 7: how incredibly inefficient. Maybe that's the point, is how ridiculous 2347 01:56:15,680 --> 01:56:17,840 Speaker 7: it's going to be. Who's going to be doing this, 2348 01:56:17,960 --> 01:56:19,960 Speaker 7: who's going to be looking over this. To my knowledge, 2349 01:56:20,000 --> 01:56:22,840 Speaker 7: there's only been one political point e in regards to this, 2350 01:56:22,880 --> 01:56:26,000 Speaker 7: and that's that the CDC it's Susan Moneraz is the 2351 01:56:26,080 --> 01:56:30,360 Speaker 7: acting director there at the CDC, and it's all going 2352 01:56:30,440 --> 01:56:33,720 Speaker 7: to go through that one person. All every study is 2353 01:56:33,720 --> 01:56:36,480 Speaker 7: going to go through that one person. It makes no sense. 2354 01:56:36,560 --> 01:56:39,160 Speaker 7: I don't even understand how it's going to be enforced. 2355 01:56:39,240 --> 01:56:42,960 Speaker 7: It's a ridiculous thing. I'm sure they're going to try 2356 01:56:43,000 --> 01:56:45,520 Speaker 7: to make some examples out of people, but how are 2357 01:56:45,520 --> 01:56:48,160 Speaker 7: they even enforced this. We're gonna find out what your grant. 2358 01:56:48,240 --> 01:56:48,600 Speaker 10: I guess. 2359 01:56:49,520 --> 01:56:50,320 Speaker 8: Yeah. 2360 01:56:50,640 --> 01:56:53,200 Speaker 10: I think the bleak thing about specifically the fact that 2361 01:56:53,360 --> 01:56:55,480 Speaker 10: you study retractions and it's just you know, this attempt 2362 01:56:55,520 --> 01:56:57,760 Speaker 10: to ban anyone from doing any research, right, is that 2363 01:56:57,880 --> 01:57:01,280 Speaker 10: like the problem for them with medical research about trans 2364 01:57:01,280 --> 01:57:03,800 Speaker 10: people is that everyone who's doing this who isn't a 2365 01:57:04,240 --> 01:57:09,400 Speaker 10: like unbelievably rabid anti trans person from the beginning, you know, 2366 01:57:09,640 --> 01:57:11,880 Speaker 10: looks at everything that they want to you to trans 2367 01:57:11,880 --> 01:57:14,520 Speaker 10: people and goes, this is going to kill unbelievable numbers 2368 01:57:14,520 --> 01:57:17,960 Speaker 10: of us. And I think like part of what they're 2369 01:57:18,000 --> 01:57:21,280 Speaker 10: doing here is they're trying to before any of this 2370 01:57:21,320 --> 01:57:24,000 Speaker 10: stuff come out, they're trying to stop the scientific apparatus 2371 01:57:24,480 --> 01:57:27,440 Speaker 10: from revealing the fact that they are trying to wipe 2372 01:57:27,480 --> 01:57:34,080 Speaker 10: us out and that's yeah, an unbelievably bleak thing to 2373 01:57:34,120 --> 01:57:34,640 Speaker 10: live through. 2374 01:57:34,720 --> 01:57:42,320 Speaker 7: I guess, like, yeah, so sorry. I mean, honestly, I 2375 01:57:42,360 --> 01:57:45,080 Speaker 7: wish I could say something more. It's really terrible. 2376 01:57:45,480 --> 01:57:50,120 Speaker 10: I won't say this like Jenny Wineley because it never happens. Obviously, 2377 01:57:50,160 --> 01:57:51,680 Speaker 10: the best the best thing you can do for trans 2378 01:57:51,960 --> 01:57:55,000 Speaker 10: people is like something that involves the follow the regime. 2379 01:57:55,440 --> 01:57:58,040 Speaker 10: Like the second best thing is like hire us, because 2380 01:57:58,080 --> 01:57:59,800 Speaker 10: no one does it and we can't. No one can 2381 01:57:59,840 --> 01:58:03,480 Speaker 10: get jobs, right, and but like like the third minimum 2382 01:58:03,560 --> 01:58:07,120 Speaker 10: thing after like money or like housing, is like like 2383 01:58:07,360 --> 01:58:09,280 Speaker 10: check in on the trans people in your life because 2384 01:58:09,320 --> 01:58:12,320 Speaker 10: nobody actually ever does it, and it means a lot, 2385 01:58:12,400 --> 01:58:14,440 Speaker 10: and it's not going to like stop the wrath of 2386 01:58:14,440 --> 01:58:16,200 Speaker 10: the state. But like, I don't know a lot of 2387 01:58:16,200 --> 01:58:18,160 Speaker 10: people feel us alone. This has been to be a 2388 01:58:18,200 --> 01:58:22,920 Speaker 10: trans public service announcement. It's now over. I think that's 2389 01:58:23,040 --> 01:58:23,920 Speaker 10: great advice. 2390 01:58:24,280 --> 01:58:29,120 Speaker 7: In other friend of the show, Margaret Kiljoy, she also said, 2391 01:58:29,200 --> 01:58:32,280 Speaker 7: you know when you hire people, you hire trans people, 2392 01:58:32,600 --> 01:58:36,280 Speaker 7: put them front of house, make it visible, and then 2393 01:58:36,320 --> 01:58:39,720 Speaker 7: when you go and you frequent these places, let them know. 2394 01:58:39,840 --> 01:58:42,480 Speaker 7: That's part of why you do it. I like that 2395 01:58:42,520 --> 01:58:44,680 Speaker 7: you guys are doing this. I'm here to support that. 2396 01:58:45,040 --> 01:58:46,960 Speaker 7: I mean, because we're talking about money, you're talking at 2397 01:58:46,920 --> 01:58:50,560 Speaker 7: people's livelihoods or at stake, and we have to show 2398 01:58:50,640 --> 01:58:53,720 Speaker 7: that these are people that are not only employable but 2399 01:58:54,000 --> 01:58:55,320 Speaker 7: could benefit your business. 2400 01:58:55,480 --> 01:58:55,720 Speaker 10: Yeah. 2401 01:58:55,720 --> 01:58:58,080 Speaker 14: Honestly, I don't know what to say about it either, 2402 01:58:58,280 --> 01:59:02,480 Speaker 14: aside from everything that they're doing is atrocious. It is 2403 01:59:02,720 --> 01:59:08,240 Speaker 14: a scientific it is in humane, It will it will 2404 01:59:08,360 --> 01:59:09,040 Speaker 14: harm people. 2405 01:59:09,280 --> 01:59:12,160 Speaker 10: Yeah, people are gonna die. People probably have already died. 2406 01:59:12,640 --> 01:59:15,520 Speaker 10: If you're transit, you're listening to this, fucking don't die. 2407 01:59:15,680 --> 01:59:17,440 Speaker 10: Think about how good it's going to be to get 2408 01:59:17,440 --> 01:59:20,000 Speaker 10: a piss on these people's graves in like eight years. 2409 01:59:20,080 --> 01:59:22,080 Speaker 10: It's gonna but. 2410 01:59:25,160 --> 01:59:25,480 Speaker 7: It is. 2411 01:59:25,560 --> 01:59:25,800 Speaker 6: It is. 2412 01:59:25,840 --> 01:59:29,560 Speaker 7: I agree, it is in dad to Argawan's point, it 2413 01:59:29,680 --> 01:59:33,320 Speaker 7: is dumb on every metric. I can't think of a 2414 01:59:33,360 --> 01:59:36,840 Speaker 7: single metric, and that these actions are not hurtful and 2415 01:59:37,040 --> 01:59:38,480 Speaker 7: going to harm us in the long run. 2416 01:59:48,680 --> 01:59:50,640 Speaker 10: To close this out that this is something that I 2417 01:59:50,680 --> 01:59:52,520 Speaker 10: think is very important because no one in the US 2418 01:59:52,560 --> 01:59:55,560 Speaker 10: apparently seems to understand this at all. How does the 2419 01:59:55,600 --> 01:59:58,720 Speaker 10: grant process actually work and what is it? Because you 2420 01:59:58,720 --> 02:00:02,360 Speaker 10: know this process, the difference between you like having clean 2421 02:00:02,440 --> 02:00:05,440 Speaker 10: water to drink and like that study that was going 2422 02:00:05,480 --> 02:00:08,320 Speaker 10: to determine if your water is clean or not not happening. 2423 02:00:08,400 --> 02:00:11,920 Speaker 14: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So you know, first thing I will 2424 02:00:11,920 --> 02:00:14,280 Speaker 14: say is that the word grant applies to lots and 2425 02:00:14,360 --> 02:00:17,400 Speaker 14: lots of different opportunities. And there are grants as small 2426 02:00:17,440 --> 02:00:20,360 Speaker 14: as like one thousand or five thousand dollars in grants 2427 02:00:20,400 --> 02:00:24,680 Speaker 14: as large as multimillion dollars. And the processes actually are 2428 02:00:25,160 --> 02:00:27,240 Speaker 14: I mean, they're analogous, but they can be pretty different 2429 02:00:27,280 --> 02:00:29,240 Speaker 14: because that you can imagine for a smaller grant, the 2430 02:00:29,240 --> 02:00:30,920 Speaker 14: amount of work that you have to do to earn 2431 02:00:30,920 --> 02:00:33,800 Speaker 14: that grant generally is a little bit less. But I 2432 02:00:33,840 --> 02:00:37,000 Speaker 14: can speak in the most detail to the NIH review 2433 02:00:37,040 --> 02:00:39,920 Speaker 14: process and specifically to these grants that they call ro 2434 02:00:40,280 --> 02:00:43,160 Speaker 14: one because are like kind of their fanciest grants that 2435 02:00:43,200 --> 02:00:46,120 Speaker 14: go to individual researchers with their team, but it's led 2436 02:00:46,160 --> 02:00:48,960 Speaker 14: by an individual researcher often. And the way this works is, 2437 02:00:49,320 --> 02:00:51,040 Speaker 14: first of all, I want folks to understand, it takes 2438 02:00:51,040 --> 02:00:54,120 Speaker 14: a year from the time that you apply until the 2439 02:00:54,160 --> 02:00:57,200 Speaker 14: time that you get money, can take up to a 2440 02:00:57,240 --> 02:01:00,560 Speaker 14: full calendar year, and so you put in in an 2441 02:01:00,560 --> 02:01:03,800 Speaker 14: immense amount of effort so I'll use myself as an example. 2442 02:01:03,800 --> 02:01:06,440 Speaker 14: I apply for a grant in October, huge amount of 2443 02:01:06,480 --> 02:01:09,040 Speaker 14: effort I don't know how many hours leading up to 2444 02:01:09,120 --> 02:01:12,360 Speaker 14: that brand submission, and then I just sit and wait 2445 02:01:13,040 --> 02:01:18,240 Speaker 14: for months, months and months before there's even a study section, 2446 02:01:18,320 --> 02:01:21,400 Speaker 14: if study section happens, and then after that, it's still 2447 02:01:22,000 --> 02:01:25,080 Speaker 14: a couple more months before I might get information. 2448 02:01:25,120 --> 02:01:25,520 Speaker 3: It depends. 2449 02:01:25,560 --> 02:01:27,760 Speaker 14: Of course, there's some variability there. But it's a long, 2450 02:01:27,920 --> 02:01:30,120 Speaker 14: long process, is what I'm trying to say. And the 2451 02:01:30,160 --> 02:01:33,080 Speaker 14: way the process starts is often you will send what 2452 02:01:33,240 --> 02:01:36,000 Speaker 14: called the letter of interest to the agency that you're 2453 02:01:36,000 --> 02:01:37,920 Speaker 14: applying to. So I've you said earlier it's the National 2454 02:01:37,960 --> 02:01:42,120 Speaker 14: Institutes of Health. So every institute has its own notice 2455 02:01:42,120 --> 02:01:44,800 Speaker 14: of funding opportunities or no foes that are like, here's 2456 02:01:44,840 --> 02:01:47,720 Speaker 14: what we're actually asking people to submit for at this 2457 02:01:47,800 --> 02:01:51,000 Speaker 14: point in time. And then people will send a letter 2458 02:01:51,040 --> 02:01:54,800 Speaker 14: of interest to the program officer. Each grant mechanism will 2459 02:01:54,800 --> 02:01:57,840 Speaker 14: have its own program officer, and you will send a 2460 02:01:57,920 --> 02:02:00,400 Speaker 14: letter of interest, maybe you get some feedback, and then 2461 02:02:00,440 --> 02:02:02,960 Speaker 14: you move forward to the actual grant itself. And I 2462 02:02:03,000 --> 02:02:05,360 Speaker 14: just want to say that it is more work than 2463 02:02:05,400 --> 02:02:08,040 Speaker 14: probably anything else I've ever done except maybe my dissertation, 2464 02:02:08,760 --> 02:02:10,920 Speaker 14: and so it's it's a huge amount of work. The 2465 02:02:11,360 --> 02:02:15,960 Speaker 14: ro one includes, for example, a one page specific aim page, 2466 02:02:16,000 --> 02:02:18,680 Speaker 14: which is you have the entirety of the study somehow 2467 02:02:18,720 --> 02:02:21,520 Speaker 14: magically summarized in one page with your three aims. And 2468 02:02:21,600 --> 02:02:24,160 Speaker 14: if that doesn't get the reviewer's attention, and if they 2469 02:02:24,160 --> 02:02:27,880 Speaker 14: don't think it's compelling and interesting and important, that may 2470 02:02:27,880 --> 02:02:29,920 Speaker 14: be the end. You may have done all the of 2471 02:02:29,920 --> 02:02:32,800 Speaker 14: the work and they may only read that, and then 2472 02:02:33,120 --> 02:02:35,840 Speaker 14: you have a twelve page These are single space pages. 2473 02:02:35,880 --> 02:02:40,120 Speaker 14: Single space pages happen toward twelve page research strategy. I 2474 02:02:40,120 --> 02:02:42,320 Speaker 14: don't know how many thousand words, thousands of words that 2475 02:02:42,360 --> 02:02:45,640 Speaker 14: it's I'm just telling you twelve single space pages. There's 2476 02:02:45,680 --> 02:02:50,400 Speaker 14: a lot of effects about your research, and it's like 2477 02:02:50,880 --> 02:02:52,720 Speaker 14: one of these puzzles where it like has to be 2478 02:02:52,880 --> 02:02:55,040 Speaker 14: exactly right, and you have like these figures and you 2479 02:02:55,080 --> 02:02:56,760 Speaker 14: have to get them exactly the right size and the 2480 02:02:56,800 --> 02:02:59,200 Speaker 14: exact right place on the page with the legend and everything. 2481 02:02:59,240 --> 02:03:02,040 Speaker 14: So that all matters in these tall pages because if 2482 02:03:02,080 --> 02:03:04,800 Speaker 14: you don't do it right, they will literally reject your 2483 02:03:04,800 --> 02:03:07,720 Speaker 14: grant for formatting problems. And so you may have spent 2484 02:03:07,840 --> 02:03:11,080 Speaker 14: months writing this grant, and because you had the wrong 2485 02:03:11,440 --> 02:03:14,600 Speaker 14: size or the wrong margin that they can literally choose 2486 02:03:14,640 --> 02:03:17,160 Speaker 14: not to even read it, and then you're you're then 2487 02:03:17,400 --> 02:03:19,400 Speaker 14: having to wait till either six months later if there's 2488 02:03:19,440 --> 02:03:21,880 Speaker 14: another opportunity, or sometimes a full year later before you 2489 02:03:21,920 --> 02:03:22,560 Speaker 14: can try again. 2490 02:03:23,200 --> 02:03:24,840 Speaker 10: Also, it's worth noting you also have to like do 2491 02:03:24,960 --> 02:03:27,760 Speaker 10: a bunch of science. Like if it was just you 2492 02:03:27,880 --> 02:03:31,520 Speaker 10: must do twelve you must write twelve pages of stuff 2493 02:03:31,560 --> 02:03:34,000 Speaker 10: in formatta, it would probably be okay, But like you 2494 02:03:34,000 --> 02:03:36,560 Speaker 10: also have to do science, like both for it and 2495 02:03:36,720 --> 02:03:40,080 Speaker 10: also while you're doing it. 2496 02:03:40,080 --> 02:03:43,640 Speaker 7: It's incredibly hard to get these. When someone gets a grant, 2497 02:03:43,720 --> 02:03:45,920 Speaker 7: we all celebrate it for them because they're all so 2498 02:03:46,000 --> 02:03:49,040 Speaker 7: excited because we know it's not easy. What's funny about 2499 02:03:49,040 --> 02:03:51,640 Speaker 7: that is the Republicans make it seem like all you 2500 02:03:51,680 --> 02:03:53,600 Speaker 7: have to do is put in a couple of terms, 2501 02:03:53,720 --> 02:03:57,360 Speaker 7: like you know, non binary, and you automatically get a grant. 2502 02:03:57,440 --> 02:04:00,000 Speaker 7: They're like, no, idea, how like challenging it is? 2503 02:04:00,120 --> 02:04:02,880 Speaker 10: No, It's like the only thing that could even potentially 2504 02:04:02,920 --> 02:04:05,040 Speaker 10: work like that is to say say, whatever you're doing 2505 02:04:05,080 --> 02:04:07,880 Speaker 10: is cancer research, Like that's the actual thing, right, Like 2506 02:04:08,360 --> 02:04:11,600 Speaker 10: sometimes you could like defraud the DoD by telling them, like, 2507 02:04:11,880 --> 02:04:14,880 Speaker 10: whatever research you're doing is camouflaged, like it's not it's 2508 02:04:15,120 --> 02:04:18,760 Speaker 10: even that is like it makes it like one percent 2509 02:04:18,960 --> 02:04:22,120 Speaker 10: more likely that you're endless hours of work. 2510 02:04:22,240 --> 02:04:24,560 Speaker 14: Yeah, I wish I could just by woke ideology. Yeah, 2511 02:04:24,640 --> 02:04:28,040 Speaker 14: future bulk pages and they're like ghetagrass music. But yeah, 2512 02:04:28,160 --> 02:04:30,000 Speaker 14: to your point, you have to part of what's in 2513 02:04:30,000 --> 02:04:32,240 Speaker 14: those twelve pages is what is the work that you've 2514 02:04:32,280 --> 02:04:35,480 Speaker 14: done that builds up to the work that you're proposing 2515 02:04:35,520 --> 02:04:38,520 Speaker 14: to do. And that's the stuff whole section called preliminary studies, 2516 02:04:38,680 --> 02:04:41,480 Speaker 14: And what's in there very is depending on what kind 2517 02:04:41,480 --> 02:04:43,240 Speaker 14: of research you're doing. If you're doing animal research, it 2518 02:04:43,320 --> 02:04:46,160 Speaker 14: might be various animal models that you've tested different things 2519 02:04:46,160 --> 02:04:48,440 Speaker 14: on that demonstrate, for example, that you are able to 2520 02:04:48,480 --> 02:04:50,720 Speaker 14: work with the specific animal model that you're proposing to 2521 02:04:50,800 --> 02:04:54,280 Speaker 14: use in this study, and that you have the specific 2522 02:04:55,040 --> 02:04:58,440 Speaker 14: methodological skills for whichever type of sace cellular analysis or 2523 02:04:58,440 --> 02:05:00,760 Speaker 14: whatever it is that you're doing, that you have those skills, 2524 02:05:00,800 --> 02:05:03,200 Speaker 14: that you have the equipment that you're able to actually 2525 02:05:03,240 --> 02:05:06,560 Speaker 14: carry out that research. Because part of what they're evaluating 2526 02:05:06,720 --> 02:05:09,320 Speaker 14: is can the person who's proposing to do this work, 2527 02:05:09,360 --> 02:05:11,440 Speaker 14: actually do the work. Last thing they want to do 2528 02:05:11,560 --> 02:05:13,120 Speaker 14: is give you millions of dollars and have you fall 2529 02:05:13,240 --> 02:05:15,120 Speaker 14: out on your face because you don't have the skills 2530 02:05:15,160 --> 02:05:18,000 Speaker 14: that are needed. So you have these pages. Part of 2531 02:05:18,000 --> 02:05:20,800 Speaker 14: those cult pages like often a page two three pages 2532 02:05:20,840 --> 02:05:24,480 Speaker 14: about what you have done to prepare for the work 2533 02:05:24,480 --> 02:05:26,640 Speaker 14: that you're proposing, and a lot of times to your 2534 02:05:26,640 --> 02:05:29,280 Speaker 14: point that work may or may not be funded. You 2535 02:05:29,320 --> 02:05:31,800 Speaker 14: may have to if you're like an academic institution, you 2536 02:05:31,880 --> 02:05:33,760 Speaker 14: might be using your startup funds, you might be trying 2537 02:05:33,760 --> 02:05:36,840 Speaker 14: to get smaller foundation grants or something to be able 2538 02:05:36,880 --> 02:05:38,800 Speaker 14: to do that work so that you can prove to 2539 02:05:39,000 --> 02:05:41,400 Speaker 14: the funding agency that you're able to do it. And 2540 02:05:41,440 --> 02:05:44,840 Speaker 14: then in addition to this culltation thing, there are a 2541 02:05:44,960 --> 02:05:48,400 Speaker 14: bunch of additional documents that are required, Like there's currently 2542 02:05:48,440 --> 02:05:51,720 Speaker 14: this will probably change, but currently there's like a diversity plan, 2543 02:05:52,200 --> 02:05:54,920 Speaker 14: there is a how are you going to treat participants 2544 02:05:54,960 --> 02:05:57,879 Speaker 14: to our women and minorities. There's like an age document, 2545 02:05:57,920 --> 02:06:01,040 Speaker 14: There's a page about resources and facility these there's all 2546 02:06:01,080 --> 02:06:03,440 Speaker 14: these additional documents which again all have their own specific 2547 02:06:03,440 --> 02:06:06,560 Speaker 14: formatting requirements. There's a project narrative which is shorter, and 2548 02:06:06,560 --> 02:06:08,240 Speaker 14: then a project summary which is longer. I think I 2549 02:06:08,240 --> 02:06:10,000 Speaker 14: could have those backward way ways the way it's all 2550 02:06:10,040 --> 02:06:12,640 Speaker 14: these additional pages. It's not just the specific games and 2551 02:06:12,840 --> 02:06:13,760 Speaker 14: just the reach of strategy. 2552 02:06:13,800 --> 02:06:16,720 Speaker 15: It's all of this plus the budget and the budget justification, 2553 02:06:16,880 --> 02:06:18,320 Speaker 15: and like you could just go on, but I think 2554 02:06:18,360 --> 02:06:21,680 Speaker 15: you start to understand that there are many many files 2555 02:06:21,680 --> 02:06:25,080 Speaker 15: that go into a single grant application, and it represents 2556 02:06:25,360 --> 02:06:29,520 Speaker 15: often months of work for an individual and their collaborators. 2557 02:06:29,840 --> 02:06:33,280 Speaker 14: And if you have, for example, another institution you're collaborating with, 2558 02:06:33,440 --> 02:06:35,800 Speaker 14: they all have to do a bunch of this paperwork 2559 02:06:35,840 --> 02:06:37,640 Speaker 14: as well, and there's a contract between the two and 2560 02:06:37,680 --> 02:06:40,000 Speaker 14: all this is done just to have a chance of 2561 02:06:40,120 --> 02:06:40,880 Speaker 14: getting counted. 2562 02:06:41,560 --> 02:06:44,320 Speaker 10: Yeah, and you know, the disruptions to the funding system, 2563 02:06:44,640 --> 02:06:48,760 Speaker 10: the disruptions to the studies, the disruption to just the 2564 02:06:48,800 --> 02:06:52,040 Speaker 10: payout means that like all of this work that you're doing, 2565 02:06:52,720 --> 02:06:55,800 Speaker 10: you know, you have no idea whether whether like again, 2566 02:06:55,840 --> 02:06:58,040 Speaker 10: all of this in some cases unpaid labor that you 2567 02:06:58,080 --> 02:06:59,680 Speaker 10: have been doing for months and months and months like 2568 02:07:00,200 --> 02:07:02,680 Speaker 10: could just not happen. Yes, And also like it's worth 2569 02:07:02,720 --> 02:07:04,600 Speaker 10: noting too, like you also have to like when you're 2570 02:07:04,640 --> 02:07:08,080 Speaker 10: figuring out what you're going to be doing next, like 2571 02:07:08,600 --> 02:07:10,600 Speaker 10: working out whether or not you're grant even as a 2572 02:07:10,680 --> 02:07:13,120 Speaker 10: chance of getting approved like that, like is something that 2573 02:07:13,200 --> 02:07:15,040 Speaker 10: is that is that is a long term decision that 2574 02:07:15,040 --> 02:07:17,720 Speaker 10: determines like what like you know, what colleges you go to, 2575 02:07:17,920 --> 02:07:19,760 Speaker 10: like what institutions you end up at, like all of 2576 02:07:19,760 --> 02:07:21,720 Speaker 10: that kind of stuff, and like that thing being all 2577 02:07:21,760 --> 02:07:22,760 Speaker 10: the stuffing up in the air. 2578 02:07:23,040 --> 02:07:25,960 Speaker 14: And for people who run labs, yeah, trying to figure 2579 02:07:26,000 --> 02:07:28,400 Speaker 14: out like can you so I don't personally work with 2580 02:07:28,480 --> 02:07:31,000 Speaker 14: graduate students, but a lot of people do. So can 2581 02:07:31,040 --> 02:07:34,760 Speaker 14: you afford to bring in and sponsor another support another 2582 02:07:34,800 --> 02:07:38,280 Speaker 14: graduate student? Can you afford the support of another postdoc? 2583 02:07:38,480 --> 02:07:41,960 Speaker 14: These are all long term decisions. These aren't just like oh, Okay, 2584 02:07:41,960 --> 02:07:43,720 Speaker 14: I'm going to hire some for two months until I 2585 02:07:43,760 --> 02:07:46,480 Speaker 14: find out the next thing. It's like you want to 2586 02:07:46,520 --> 02:07:49,760 Speaker 14: commit to people, especially trainees. So it makes it very 2587 02:07:49,800 --> 02:07:53,760 Speaker 14: difficult for people who run labs to make those decisions 2588 02:07:53,800 --> 02:07:55,840 Speaker 14: to bring people in because we don't want to let 2589 02:07:55,880 --> 02:07:59,200 Speaker 14: people down. And so I think the kind of intuitive 2590 02:07:59,200 --> 02:08:02,560 Speaker 14: and natural concept is that people will bring in fewer 2591 02:08:02,600 --> 02:08:07,320 Speaker 14: people because that's less risky than bringing in more people 2592 02:08:07,360 --> 02:08:10,880 Speaker 14: and then having to either cut their funding or let 2593 02:08:10,920 --> 02:08:13,040 Speaker 14: them go or whatever later on when you don't get 2594 02:08:13,120 --> 02:08:15,640 Speaker 14: the resources that you need. And I want to just 2595 02:08:15,720 --> 02:08:18,600 Speaker 14: point out that institutions here have a major role to play. 2596 02:08:18,840 --> 02:08:20,920 Speaker 14: And not all institutions, and by that I mean higher 2597 02:08:21,000 --> 02:08:24,960 Speaker 14: education institutions, and not all of them are equally resourced, obviously, 2598 02:08:25,320 --> 02:08:27,440 Speaker 14: but we all know that there are quite a few 2599 02:08:27,520 --> 02:08:31,280 Speaker 14: in this country that have massive endowments, and so are 2600 02:08:31,440 --> 02:08:33,919 Speaker 14: what is the plan there and what is the support 2601 02:08:34,040 --> 02:08:36,640 Speaker 14: for the folks at their institutions. And I'm not trying 2602 02:08:36,680 --> 02:08:39,240 Speaker 14: to be I'm not trying to oversimplify what is in 2603 02:08:39,320 --> 02:08:41,960 Speaker 14: fact a very challenging issue. But it would be nice, 2604 02:08:42,120 --> 02:08:45,040 Speaker 14: it would be fantastic if some of these institutions came 2605 02:08:45,080 --> 02:08:47,480 Speaker 14: out and said, we understand that this is a very 2606 02:08:47,560 --> 02:08:50,320 Speaker 14: challenging time where you being committed to supporting the work 2607 02:08:50,400 --> 02:08:54,400 Speaker 14: of our faculty, our graduate students are postoc et cetera, 2608 02:08:54,520 --> 02:08:58,000 Speaker 14: and we will and we will fund anyone who's funding 2609 02:08:58,160 --> 02:08:59,720 Speaker 14: is withdrawn or withheld. 2610 02:09:00,080 --> 02:09:02,480 Speaker 7: Let's just say it'd be nice if some of these 2611 02:09:02,600 --> 02:09:07,120 Speaker 7: very important, prestigious academic institutions showed maybe at least the 2612 02:09:07,160 --> 02:09:08,919 Speaker 7: same backbone as COSTCO. 2613 02:09:09,840 --> 02:09:11,920 Speaker 10: Yeah, it's all I ask. 2614 02:09:12,040 --> 02:09:14,640 Speaker 14: Okay too, I want to highlight too. It's very early 2615 02:09:14,760 --> 02:09:18,440 Speaker 14: yet in this game. But Brown did come out, I 2616 02:09:18,520 --> 02:09:21,640 Speaker 14: think it was yesterday or sometime over the weekend, stating 2617 02:09:21,720 --> 02:09:26,560 Speaker 14: clearly that they remained committed to their values of academic freedom. 2618 02:09:27,160 --> 02:09:27,320 Speaker 6: Right. 2619 02:09:27,360 --> 02:09:29,120 Speaker 14: So that's the way to say it, right, like, we 2620 02:09:29,160 --> 02:09:33,360 Speaker 14: support our staff and employees and students. Fact, we're doing 2621 02:09:33,560 --> 02:09:37,960 Speaker 14: whatever work they think is important. I think that that 2622 02:09:38,120 --> 02:09:41,440 Speaker 14: was their roundabout way of saying, we're not abandoning the 2623 02:09:41,480 --> 02:09:43,880 Speaker 14: principles of DEI. But who knows, but that's what they said. 2624 02:09:43,880 --> 02:09:47,760 Speaker 14: But but to Princeton, Princeton actually put out their annual 2625 02:09:47,840 --> 02:09:51,600 Speaker 14: report on DEI at Princeton and I forget the exact 2626 02:09:51,600 --> 02:09:52,880 Speaker 14: worrying and I don't have it in front of me, 2627 02:09:52,920 --> 02:09:56,680 Speaker 14: but their president talked about how important it is to 2628 02:09:56,720 --> 02:10:01,040 Speaker 14: support people from different backgrounds, et cetera. So that that's 2629 02:10:01,080 --> 02:10:02,440 Speaker 14: two that are trying to do something. 2630 02:10:02,520 --> 02:10:05,560 Speaker 10: Yeah, I remain hopeful. I remain helpful. Yeah. Also, I 2631 02:10:05,560 --> 02:10:07,120 Speaker 10: got I got to put in my word at Costco 2632 02:10:07,160 --> 02:10:10,200 Speaker 10: hate here, which is they're currently screwing over their unions. 2633 02:10:10,360 --> 02:10:11,760 Speaker 3: So I thought they resolved it. 2634 02:10:11,800 --> 02:10:13,000 Speaker 7: I thought they actually gave them. 2635 02:10:13,080 --> 02:10:15,240 Speaker 3: No, they didn't. They did in the page increase. 2636 02:10:15,880 --> 02:10:17,200 Speaker 10: Yeah, it's not resolved yet. 2637 02:10:17,800 --> 02:10:19,680 Speaker 7: I thought the hot Dog was still win fifty though, 2638 02:10:19,720 --> 02:10:24,120 Speaker 7: so that's important for me. Read Jamie Loftus's book Raw DOGG. 2639 02:10:24,720 --> 02:10:26,480 Speaker 10: I'm a doctor. I can't do that by law. 2640 02:10:26,680 --> 02:10:30,960 Speaker 14: Yeah, but even the NFL came out today and said 2641 02:10:31,000 --> 02:10:34,640 Speaker 14: that they're not going to end their d programs any typetube. 2642 02:10:34,760 --> 02:10:39,000 Speaker 10: NFL known for being all right, I mean that is 2643 02:10:39,040 --> 02:10:40,680 Speaker 10: a thing though, right if if, if you want to 2644 02:10:40,720 --> 02:10:42,680 Speaker 10: understand why the NFL is doing that, like look at 2645 02:10:42,680 --> 02:10:45,200 Speaker 10: who the current heads of the NFL Players Association are 2646 02:10:45,520 --> 02:10:47,800 Speaker 10: and like who their past heads for the last like 2647 02:10:47,960 --> 02:10:50,400 Speaker 10: decade have been, and that will give you an indication 2648 02:10:50,520 --> 02:10:54,960 Speaker 10: of like why it's like that. So yeah, MIO follows 2649 02:10:55,000 --> 02:10:58,200 Speaker 10: football pretty closely. I can tell it for unfortunately, if 2650 02:10:58,200 --> 02:11:00,960 Speaker 10: we're coming from feed all. Also, I kind of owe 2651 02:11:01,000 --> 02:11:04,080 Speaker 10: the NFL Players Association because they did they they did 2652 02:11:04,120 --> 02:11:06,400 Speaker 10: put out a statement in support of our unionization drive. 2653 02:11:06,640 --> 02:11:09,760 Speaker 10: So yeah, it was very sweet. 2654 02:11:09,960 --> 02:11:10,560 Speaker 3: That's nice. 2655 02:11:11,000 --> 02:11:12,960 Speaker 14: Well, I do want to say one more thing about 2656 02:11:13,000 --> 02:11:16,919 Speaker 14: the grant process, which is that often people are submitting 2657 02:11:16,960 --> 02:11:21,240 Speaker 14: the same grant over and over and over because the 2658 02:11:21,280 --> 02:11:25,240 Speaker 14: funding rates are so low and so often they will 2659 02:11:25,640 --> 02:11:30,000 Speaker 14: submit it the first time, get feedback, make changes, resubmit 2660 02:11:30,080 --> 02:11:32,440 Speaker 14: later and again. As I pointed out, it's not like 2661 02:11:32,480 --> 02:11:35,040 Speaker 14: this is a rolling submission process where any day of 2662 02:11:35,080 --> 02:11:38,120 Speaker 14: the week you can submit I think for most mechanism. Again, 2663 02:11:38,160 --> 02:11:40,520 Speaker 14: there's going to be some variability from institute to institute, 2664 02:11:40,520 --> 02:11:43,520 Speaker 14: but it's at most twice a year, so like if 2665 02:11:43,560 --> 02:11:46,560 Speaker 14: they're if they reject it, hopefully they give you feedback. 2666 02:11:46,560 --> 02:11:48,440 Speaker 14: By the way, sometimes you don't even get feed because 2667 02:11:48,440 --> 02:11:51,400 Speaker 14: if you weren't one of the top grant applications, you 2668 02:11:51,480 --> 02:11:54,440 Speaker 14: don't even get discussed, so you may not get feedback. 2669 02:11:54,440 --> 02:11:56,960 Speaker 14: But let's say you get feedback, then you try again, 2670 02:11:57,080 --> 02:11:58,880 Speaker 14: and then maybe you try again, and then maybe you 2671 02:11:58,880 --> 02:12:02,040 Speaker 14: try again. So sometimes they can take many cycles of 2672 02:12:02,040 --> 02:12:06,560 Speaker 14: this entire terrible process before you get funded one. And 2673 02:12:06,920 --> 02:12:09,840 Speaker 14: to Covey's point about efficiency, clier like, I mean, if 2674 02:12:09,920 --> 02:12:12,840 Speaker 14: you think about it that way, that it's extremely inefficient system. 2675 02:12:12,880 --> 02:12:14,360 Speaker 14: But the point I just wanted to make is that 2676 02:12:14,440 --> 02:12:18,080 Speaker 14: people work really, really hard to get these grants, and 2677 02:12:18,400 --> 02:12:20,240 Speaker 14: for some of the folks right now who are kind 2678 02:12:20,240 --> 02:12:22,520 Speaker 14: of in limbo waiting for study section to resume, this 2679 02:12:22,680 --> 02:12:26,680 Speaker 14: might be their third or fourth submission of something, and 2680 02:12:26,840 --> 02:12:29,480 Speaker 14: they were really hoping this was going to be the chance, 2681 02:12:29,560 --> 02:12:32,480 Speaker 14: because at some point you can't keep pursuing unless you 2682 02:12:32,520 --> 02:12:35,520 Speaker 14: have some other independent income, like often, at some point 2683 02:12:35,520 --> 02:12:38,160 Speaker 14: you cannot keep pursuing a specific line of research. So 2684 02:12:38,200 --> 02:12:41,280 Speaker 14: you have to think about what breakthrough is being put 2685 02:12:41,320 --> 02:12:45,040 Speaker 14: on hold or will never be identified because of all 2686 02:12:45,080 --> 02:12:48,080 Speaker 14: of this, because someone might have been waiting and maybe 2687 02:12:48,240 --> 02:12:50,960 Speaker 14: they can't wait for however long it takes to resolve 2688 02:12:51,040 --> 02:12:54,280 Speaker 14: this freeze, and maybe they end up switching their career 2689 02:12:54,360 --> 02:12:56,640 Speaker 14: path into something completely different. And I'll just say, like, 2690 02:12:56,680 --> 02:12:58,800 Speaker 14: even on a smaller scale, I had a grant that 2691 02:12:59,240 --> 02:13:02,520 Speaker 14: a colleague and I admitted several years back that got funded. 2692 02:13:02,720 --> 02:13:04,560 Speaker 14: That was a very competitive grant. It was not a 2693 02:13:04,600 --> 02:13:07,680 Speaker 14: federal grant, it was a foundation, very competitive and we 2694 02:13:07,680 --> 02:13:10,520 Speaker 14: were delighted. We were i mean just thrilled to get funded. 2695 02:13:10,640 --> 02:13:12,760 Speaker 14: And then we could not in the end take the grant. 2696 02:13:12,760 --> 02:13:14,839 Speaker 14: We did not do the work of the grant because 2697 02:13:15,000 --> 02:13:17,960 Speaker 14: he ended up not being able to find an appointment 2698 02:13:17,960 --> 02:13:19,480 Speaker 14: that was going to work for him in academia and 2699 02:13:19,520 --> 02:13:21,840 Speaker 14: so he went to industry, so that work never got done. 2700 02:13:21,880 --> 02:13:24,480 Speaker 14: To this day, that work has not been done yeah, 2701 02:13:24,560 --> 02:13:26,840 Speaker 14: I would love for it to be done. But those 2702 02:13:26,880 --> 02:13:30,040 Speaker 14: are the types of consequences that we're talking about when 2703 02:13:30,040 --> 02:13:32,360 Speaker 14: we're looking at like what's happening with these funds and 2704 02:13:32,400 --> 02:13:35,120 Speaker 14: the delay of distributing the funds and the chances that 2705 02:13:35,240 --> 02:13:38,800 Speaker 14: funds will be revoked from people. They really changed the 2706 02:13:38,840 --> 02:13:41,520 Speaker 14: course of not just individual lives, but of science. 2707 02:13:42,000 --> 02:13:44,000 Speaker 10: Yeah, And I mean, like the most visual example I 2708 02:13:44,000 --> 02:13:47,000 Speaker 10: could think about this was I knew some people who 2709 02:13:47,960 --> 02:13:50,480 Speaker 10: wanted to work in a coronavirus lab in twenty nineteen 2710 02:13:50,480 --> 02:13:52,520 Speaker 10: and couldn't do it because they didn't their PI didn't 2711 02:13:52,520 --> 02:13:54,760 Speaker 10: have funding for We're got a coronavirus thing. It's like, oh, 2712 02:13:54,840 --> 02:14:01,560 Speaker 10: what have been useful if they got that grant? Uh 2713 02:14:01,600 --> 02:14:03,400 Speaker 10: So I think this is a decent enough place to 2714 02:14:03,400 --> 02:14:05,400 Speaker 10: wrap up. I do have one thing that I want 2715 02:14:05,400 --> 02:14:07,240 Speaker 10: to plug, which is something you were talking about earlier, 2716 02:14:07,240 --> 02:14:09,840 Speaker 10: which is putting, which is these institutions like coming out 2717 02:14:09,840 --> 02:14:13,160 Speaker 10: and backing their scientists right, And that's that's a thing 2718 02:14:13,160 --> 02:14:15,200 Speaker 10: that you can do. You can put pressure on these 2719 02:14:15,200 --> 02:14:18,440 Speaker 10: institutions to do the right thing. And so it might 2720 02:14:18,480 --> 02:14:20,800 Speaker 10: be over by by by now, but like literally as 2721 02:14:20,840 --> 02:14:24,160 Speaker 10: we were recording this, there was a protest going on 2722 02:14:24,520 --> 02:14:29,800 Speaker 10: at NYU's Hospital. Yeah, because they've cut off care to 2723 02:14:30,360 --> 02:14:34,840 Speaker 10: transuse they cut off Yeah, and so you know you 2724 02:14:34,880 --> 02:14:37,720 Speaker 10: can do this the people who actually run these systems, 2725 02:14:38,000 --> 02:14:41,000 Speaker 10: and you know, and the entire federal government, right people 2726 02:14:41,080 --> 02:14:43,760 Speaker 10: running the federal government are relying on everyone just sort 2727 02:14:43,760 --> 02:14:45,960 Speaker 10: of sitting there being shocked, not knowing what to do, 2728 02:14:46,000 --> 02:14:49,000 Speaker 10: and doing nothing. And you know, you can go show 2729 02:14:49,040 --> 02:14:51,960 Speaker 10: up to the administrators, the offices of the administrators of 2730 02:14:52,000 --> 02:14:54,480 Speaker 10: these places, and you can confront them and you could 2731 02:14:54,480 --> 02:14:56,720 Speaker 10: be like, Okay, you're you're either right here right now. 2732 02:14:56,760 --> 02:14:58,200 Speaker 10: You're going to be a coward and you're going to 2733 02:14:58,240 --> 02:14:59,840 Speaker 10: go along with this, or you're going to go back 2734 02:15:00,080 --> 02:15:00,560 Speaker 10: own people. 2735 02:15:00,960 --> 02:15:01,240 Speaker 6: Yeah. 2736 02:15:01,400 --> 02:15:04,080 Speaker 10: Yeah, And that's something that you could do right now. 2737 02:15:04,600 --> 02:15:06,480 Speaker 14: And I just want to add we didn't talk about 2738 02:15:06,520 --> 02:15:08,880 Speaker 14: this earlier, but when we talked about the CDC and 2739 02:15:08,920 --> 02:15:11,280 Speaker 14: everything that's been removed, one thing that's relevant to that 2740 02:15:11,400 --> 02:15:13,280 Speaker 14: is that there's an Office for Research on Women's Health. 2741 02:15:13,280 --> 02:15:16,000 Speaker 14: It's the only resource dedicated to women's health in the 2742 02:15:16,160 --> 02:15:19,000 Speaker 14: entire national Institutes of Health. We do have a National 2743 02:15:19,040 --> 02:15:21,240 Speaker 14: Institute of Children's Health. We do not have a National 2744 02:15:21,240 --> 02:15:23,520 Speaker 14: Institute of Women's Health. We have an awful for research 2745 02:15:23,520 --> 02:15:24,160 Speaker 14: on women's health. 2746 02:15:24,200 --> 02:15:27,480 Speaker 10: Right if we love the US government, Jesus. 2747 02:15:27,920 --> 02:15:30,360 Speaker 14: Yeah, it gets worse. So the National Academy the Science 2748 02:15:30,440 --> 02:15:33,200 Speaker 14: is Engineering in Medicine, which is like, I would say, 2749 02:15:33,360 --> 02:15:36,640 Speaker 14: one of the most prestigious kind of academic organizations that existed. 2750 02:15:37,240 --> 02:15:40,800 Speaker 14: A review of funding for women's health research at the NIH, 2751 02:15:41,080 --> 02:15:43,360 Speaker 14: and they put out a report in December. It's pretty 2752 02:15:43,400 --> 02:15:46,920 Speaker 14: scathing if you read it, and they shared that from 2753 02:15:46,920 --> 02:15:49,720 Speaker 14: twenty thirteen to twenty twenty three, research for women's health 2754 02:15:49,760 --> 02:15:53,040 Speaker 14: was like eight point eight percent of the entire NIH 2755 02:15:53,080 --> 02:16:01,000 Speaker 14: budget as a reminder, women are the population, and they 2756 02:16:01,120 --> 02:16:04,720 Speaker 14: called for almost sixteen billion dollars of additional funding to 2757 02:16:04,760 --> 02:16:07,000 Speaker 14: go to women's health research in the coming five years 2758 02:16:07,040 --> 02:16:09,680 Speaker 14: and the creation of an Institute for Women's Health. So 2759 02:16:09,760 --> 02:16:13,240 Speaker 14: what happened last week with almost everything on the website 2760 02:16:13,240 --> 02:16:15,320 Speaker 14: for the Office of Research for Women's Health was deleted. 2761 02:16:15,440 --> 02:16:16,880 Speaker 6: Jes Christ it's gone. 2762 02:16:17,000 --> 02:16:19,800 Speaker 14: So they're funding. An opportunities page is gone, Their bios 2763 02:16:19,840 --> 02:16:23,160 Speaker 14: about their staff are gone, their updates on advances in 2764 02:16:23,280 --> 02:16:26,080 Speaker 14: medicine for women over the last twenty five years gone, 2765 02:16:26,240 --> 02:16:30,280 Speaker 14: their pages on maternal morbidity immortality gone, The importance of 2766 02:16:30,280 --> 02:16:33,520 Speaker 14: including women in minorities and clinical trial gone, their page 2767 02:16:33,560 --> 02:16:36,280 Speaker 14: on health equity gone. You get the picture. So all 2768 02:16:36,400 --> 02:16:39,680 Speaker 14: of that except for just a very bare minimum landing 2769 02:16:39,720 --> 02:16:43,440 Speaker 14: page and kind a link to the office of I 2770 02:16:43,440 --> 02:16:45,320 Speaker 14: forget the official in the office that's an office that 2771 02:16:45,400 --> 02:16:48,720 Speaker 14: works on autoimmune diseases. Like everything else is gone. And 2772 02:16:48,800 --> 02:16:51,240 Speaker 14: so I did create a script. If anybody wants to 2773 02:16:51,280 --> 02:16:54,440 Speaker 14: call their member of Congress, I have a script for that, 2774 02:16:54,800 --> 02:16:57,600 Speaker 14: and the CDC pages that people can use in terms 2775 02:16:57,640 --> 02:17:00,600 Speaker 14: of actions. That's something I think that is about as 2776 02:17:00,640 --> 02:17:02,920 Speaker 14: real as it gets for us at this point. And 2777 02:17:03,000 --> 02:17:07,120 Speaker 14: I think that the more we are emphatic in our 2778 02:17:07,600 --> 02:17:10,400 Speaker 14: messaging that none of this is okay, that we demand 2779 02:17:10,400 --> 02:17:13,560 Speaker 14: to have these resources back online, that we demand to 2780 02:17:13,600 --> 02:17:17,039 Speaker 14: continue funding research on health disparities for all the different 2781 02:17:17,040 --> 02:17:20,520 Speaker 14: groups affected, I think the better the chance is that 2782 02:17:20,520 --> 02:17:23,720 Speaker 14: that actually happens. So that's out there if anybody. 2783 02:17:23,360 --> 02:17:25,360 Speaker 10: Wants that, Yeah, well we'll put links to that in 2784 02:17:25,400 --> 02:17:27,279 Speaker 10: the description. Also, I'm going to put it a personal 2785 02:17:27,360 --> 02:17:29,440 Speaker 10: plug to call your congress person to yell at them 2786 02:17:29,440 --> 02:17:33,040 Speaker 10: about all of the anti trans stuff, because they are 2787 02:17:33,120 --> 02:17:35,400 Speaker 10: legitimately in a flux point right now where the party 2788 02:17:35,440 --> 02:17:38,560 Speaker 10: is slipping back and forth between just being like, yeah, whatever, 2789 02:17:38,600 --> 02:17:40,800 Speaker 10: we'll pass a defense bill that like banchanz people from 2790 02:17:40,800 --> 02:17:43,480 Speaker 10: the military, and we're going to stop things from happening. 2791 02:17:43,600 --> 02:17:45,640 Speaker 10: And so this is the thing that can go either way, 2792 02:17:45,720 --> 02:17:48,320 Speaker 10: and getting yelled at by their constituents legitimately does help 2793 02:17:48,320 --> 02:17:51,480 Speaker 10: with us. So yep, absolutely, yeah, do that too. When 2794 02:17:51,480 --> 02:17:54,160 Speaker 10: you're called. While you're calling, what the CDC, multiple things, 2795 02:17:54,959 --> 02:17:57,600 Speaker 10: different calls even, Yeah, you. 2796 02:17:57,600 --> 02:17:59,480 Speaker 14: Might just want to put them on feed though and 2797 02:17:59,640 --> 02:18:01,280 Speaker 14: make it, you know, on your drive if you go 2798 02:18:01,320 --> 02:18:03,840 Speaker 14: into work, maybe every day on the drive you're just calling, Hi, 2799 02:18:04,320 --> 02:18:07,120 Speaker 14: here's the issue of the day, because there's no shortage 2800 02:18:07,120 --> 02:18:08,879 Speaker 14: of issues that we need to be communicating now. 2801 02:18:09,720 --> 02:18:12,840 Speaker 10: So, speaking of things in bios, where can people find 2802 02:18:12,879 --> 02:18:15,240 Speaker 10: you two for stuff that you want to promote the 2803 02:18:15,360 --> 02:18:17,240 Speaker 10: way you do, et cetera, et cetera. 2804 02:18:17,520 --> 02:18:20,320 Speaker 14: I mean, I'm on all the things, even the terrible thing, 2805 02:18:21,320 --> 02:18:24,640 Speaker 14: which is most of them are terrible, But I'm on TikTok. 2806 02:18:24,959 --> 02:18:26,959 Speaker 14: If you just put my first name, usually all come 2807 02:18:27,040 --> 02:18:30,959 Speaker 14: up TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, I know, I know, and blue 2808 02:18:31,000 --> 02:18:34,400 Speaker 14: Sky and I'm not the only one I don't really 2809 02:18:34,480 --> 02:18:35,480 Speaker 14: do is Facebook. 2810 02:18:36,520 --> 02:18:37,080 Speaker 7: You're too cool. 2811 02:18:37,120 --> 02:18:37,360 Speaker 6: For that. 2812 02:18:38,000 --> 02:18:41,080 Speaker 14: Oh, I have a subset. That's where the script is 2813 02:18:41,080 --> 02:18:43,440 Speaker 14: by my subset. Now, not too cool for Facebook. I'm 2814 02:18:43,480 --> 02:18:44,640 Speaker 14: just too lazy for Facebook. 2815 02:18:45,080 --> 02:18:47,520 Speaker 7: I mean, I mean listen, if you're on these things, 2816 02:18:47,520 --> 02:18:50,400 Speaker 7: you're not too cool for anything. That's the really cool 2817 02:18:50,480 --> 02:18:53,199 Speaker 7: kids are not on any of these things. You can 2818 02:18:53,240 --> 02:18:57,320 Speaker 7: find me at on Blue Sky, at cave Ka V 2819 02:18:57,440 --> 02:19:01,320 Speaker 7: E H M D. And more importantly, you can listen 2820 02:19:01,560 --> 02:19:05,760 Speaker 7: to my podcast, The House of Pod. It's a relatively fun, 2821 02:19:05,800 --> 02:19:09,680 Speaker 7: informal look at medicine. We tried to make healthcare more relatable, 2822 02:19:10,120 --> 02:19:12,680 Speaker 7: you know. Sometimes we'll take an aim at medical quackery 2823 02:19:12,879 --> 02:19:14,760 Speaker 7: or griffs and that sort of thing. I think your 2824 02:19:14,959 --> 02:19:15,920 Speaker 7: listeners will like it. 2825 02:19:16,120 --> 02:19:16,360 Speaker 10: Yeah. 2826 02:19:16,440 --> 02:19:21,480 Speaker 7: Our guests range from doctors like Peter Hotez or Argavon 2827 02:19:21,760 --> 02:19:26,760 Speaker 7: here to musicians like Portugal the Man or a lot 2828 02:19:26,800 --> 02:19:29,720 Speaker 7: of the Cool Zone family that you all know and love, 2829 02:19:29,959 --> 02:19:34,640 Speaker 7: Prop and Robert and hopefully me as soon. So find 2830 02:19:34,680 --> 02:19:37,080 Speaker 7: it anywhere you get your podcasts, The House of Pod. Yeah, 2831 02:19:37,120 --> 02:19:39,120 Speaker 7: and you can find all of that. 2832 02:19:39,440 --> 02:19:42,640 Speaker 10: We've talked about like a staggering number of the other 2833 02:19:42,720 --> 02:19:46,360 Speaker 10: shows that we do in this one, but yeah, you can. 2834 02:19:46,440 --> 02:19:49,279 Speaker 10: You can find our other shows where there are podcasts 2835 02:19:49,560 --> 02:19:54,320 Speaker 10: and yeah, think god, I'm so bad at plugging these things. 2836 02:19:54,520 --> 02:19:56,880 Speaker 10: You think it's my living but now can't do it, 2837 02:19:56,959 --> 02:20:01,200 Speaker 10: so you're out of ted. Absolute failure. But yeah, thank 2838 02:20:01,240 --> 02:20:04,680 Speaker 10: you to both for coming on. And I hope you 2839 02:20:04,720 --> 02:20:09,320 Speaker 10: get your grand arka pod because fuck that, like Jesus Christ. 2840 02:20:10,600 --> 02:20:11,160 Speaker 14: Thank you. 2841 02:20:11,360 --> 02:20:11,560 Speaker 6: Well. 2842 02:20:11,560 --> 02:20:14,440 Speaker 14: If I if I don't get my funding renewed this summer, 2843 02:20:14,480 --> 02:20:15,320 Speaker 14: I will, I will. 2844 02:20:15,160 --> 02:20:15,520 Speaker 3: Let you know. 2845 02:20:15,560 --> 02:20:16,640 Speaker 14: I mean we can talk about it. 2846 02:20:16,840 --> 02:20:22,879 Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, I'm down for a podcast. Yeah, this is 2847 02:20:22,879 --> 02:20:27,240 Speaker 10: this is big. Could happen here. I go harass your legislatures, 2848 02:20:27,560 --> 02:20:33,200 Speaker 10: your local administrators for universities, your local police departments. I 2849 02:20:33,560 --> 02:20:42,800 Speaker 10: make sure they do not bad stuff and do good things. 2850 02:20:57,040 --> 02:21:00,280 Speaker 4: Hi, everyone, I'm welcome to it could happen here today. 2851 02:21:00,320 --> 02:21:03,760 Speaker 4: It's me James and I'm joined by Nevdon jam Gochian. 2852 02:21:04,000 --> 02:21:08,760 Speaker 4: We're here to talk about Azerbaijan, Armenia and the increasingly 2853 02:21:08,840 --> 02:21:10,680 Speaker 4: genocidal rhetoric from Azerbaijan. 2854 02:21:10,879 --> 02:21:11,959 Speaker 3: But I want to start off. 2855 02:21:12,120 --> 02:21:16,360 Speaker 4: Nevdene, we're talking about COP twenty twenty four. 2856 02:21:16,520 --> 02:21:17,959 Speaker 3: I guess can you explain. 2857 02:21:18,160 --> 02:21:20,800 Speaker 4: I think people will be sort of somewhat familiar with 2858 02:21:20,840 --> 02:21:23,320 Speaker 4: these series of climate conferences but this one was held 2859 02:21:23,560 --> 02:21:26,280 Speaker 4: in Azerbijan, right, and can you explain a little bit 2860 02:21:26,320 --> 02:21:32,400 Speaker 4: about you've specialized in like these greenwashing, sports washing, various 2861 02:21:32,400 --> 02:21:34,560 Speaker 4: other sort of forms of laundering legitimacy. 2862 02:21:34,640 --> 02:21:37,480 Speaker 3: Rate, I'd love for you to start off there and. 2863 02:21:37,480 --> 02:21:40,880 Speaker 4: Explain how this particular conference was used as a means 2864 02:21:40,920 --> 02:21:44,480 Speaker 4: of laundering legitimacy for what is it like a genocidal project. 2865 02:21:44,920 --> 02:21:50,600 Speaker 6: COP twenty nine, which was just concluded in Azerbaijan, is 2866 02:21:50,840 --> 02:21:56,720 Speaker 6: the deadly serious and vital conversation about climate in the 2867 02:21:56,800 --> 02:22:01,280 Speaker 6: United Nations, which we absolutely need to have. But from 2868 02:22:01,280 --> 02:22:07,320 Speaker 6: the beginning it was a clown show. And the way Azerbaijan, 2869 02:22:07,600 --> 02:22:12,280 Speaker 6: a Petro dictatorship, was able to proture this for themselves 2870 02:22:12,920 --> 02:22:16,240 Speaker 6: was at COP twenty eight, which was held in Dubai, 2871 02:22:16,400 --> 02:22:20,720 Speaker 6: another questionable location for the climate conference, where they had 2872 02:22:20,760 --> 02:22:24,800 Speaker 6: a pavilion as reported by Political EU, where they had 2873 02:22:24,800 --> 02:22:30,360 Speaker 6: a giant advertisement that said Carabach is the first place 2874 02:22:30,520 --> 02:22:35,840 Speaker 6: to achieve net zero emissions in Azerbaijan, and that was 2875 02:22:35,879 --> 02:22:39,000 Speaker 6: one part of them getting the bid for COP twenty nine. 2876 02:22:39,000 --> 02:22:43,480 Speaker 6: And the way Zerbaijan was able to achieve net zero 2877 02:22:44,360 --> 02:22:49,040 Speaker 6: emissions in this particular location was they committed a genocide 2878 02:22:49,160 --> 02:22:52,560 Speaker 6: against all the people. If there's no people, there's no 2879 02:22:52,959 --> 02:22:57,680 Speaker 6: climate emissions. And that's probably not even true that it's 2880 02:22:57,720 --> 02:23:01,280 Speaker 6: a net zero emissions because they've engaged in so much 2881 02:23:01,320 --> 02:23:05,280 Speaker 6: of the eradication of any trace of Armenians in this 2882 02:23:05,400 --> 02:23:08,920 Speaker 6: place that Armenians been living in for at least two thousand, 2883 02:23:09,040 --> 02:23:13,160 Speaker 6: five hundred years. Destruction of buildings, of course is one 2884 02:23:13,160 --> 02:23:18,400 Speaker 6: of the huge source of pollution, and they've they've raised 2885 02:23:18,480 --> 02:23:23,400 Speaker 6: something like four cemeteries, thousands of the monuments, four churches 2886 02:23:23,400 --> 02:23:28,879 Speaker 6: have demolished, entire neighborhoods have been raised historical neighborhood so 2887 02:23:29,120 --> 02:23:30,920 Speaker 6: it's probably not even that zero, but that was their 2888 02:23:30,959 --> 02:23:34,880 Speaker 6: advertising claim to get the bid. The top twenty nine 2889 02:23:34,920 --> 02:23:38,560 Speaker 6: was originally supposed to be in Europe, but Russia was 2890 02:23:38,640 --> 02:23:45,040 Speaker 6: vetoing every European bid, and Armenia, who Azerbaijan is currently 2891 02:23:45,120 --> 02:23:49,040 Speaker 6: occupying two hundred and fifteen kilometers of Armenian territory, was 2892 02:23:49,080 --> 02:23:53,600 Speaker 6: blocking Azerbaijan. Tell Azerbaijan offered to give up thirty two 2893 02:23:53,840 --> 02:24:00,120 Speaker 6: Armenian hostages, so we've got to there, we've got the 2894 02:24:00,160 --> 02:24:04,400 Speaker 6: gangster hobstage situation, which they did. They gave up thirty 2895 02:24:04,400 --> 02:24:07,400 Speaker 6: two members of the Armenian military, and they made Armenia 2896 02:24:07,480 --> 02:24:10,400 Speaker 6: give up two other basignons that were reheld by Armenia 2897 02:24:10,800 --> 02:24:15,640 Speaker 6: because they had gone into Armenia and killed a local 2898 02:24:15,879 --> 02:24:19,400 Speaker 6: security guard trying to steal his car. They probably were 2899 02:24:19,400 --> 02:24:21,560 Speaker 6: lost and they killed this guy and they were trying 2900 02:24:21,560 --> 02:24:24,320 Speaker 6: to escape. But then just one of them had been 2901 02:24:24,360 --> 02:24:27,440 Speaker 6: sent to life imprisonment. But that's what Armenia gave up 2902 02:24:27,879 --> 02:24:29,320 Speaker 6: in exchange. 2903 02:24:29,000 --> 02:24:31,160 Speaker 8: To allow this climate conference to happen. 2904 02:24:31,200 --> 02:24:33,879 Speaker 6: That's correct, So let's stoom. 2905 02:24:33,680 --> 02:24:36,280 Speaker 4: Back from this climate conference, right like in this I 2906 02:24:36,280 --> 02:24:39,200 Speaker 4: think it's a really interesting place to start. The site 2907 02:24:39,240 --> 02:24:42,440 Speaker 4: of our genocide is a net zero area, and it's 2908 02:24:42,440 --> 02:24:46,279 Speaker 4: a very bleak vision of the sort of greenwashing future. 2909 02:24:47,400 --> 02:24:49,280 Speaker 4: Let's expand a little bit of the history of the 2910 02:24:49,320 --> 02:24:52,760 Speaker 4: conflict between these two countries, and also, perhaps more broadly, 2911 02:24:53,040 --> 02:24:55,520 Speaker 4: I think people will probably be familiar with the Armenian 2912 02:24:55,520 --> 02:24:58,879 Speaker 4: genocide if they've listened to this show, But of Armenian 2913 02:24:58,920 --> 02:25:04,120 Speaker 4: people as a subject discrimination and hatred for centuries. 2914 02:25:03,720 --> 02:25:07,120 Speaker 6: Right, well, you know, I mean, Armenians are one of 2915 02:25:07,160 --> 02:25:11,080 Speaker 6: the ancient people of that area, Greeks, Jews, Persians, they're 2916 02:25:11,080 --> 02:25:12,480 Speaker 6: one of the people that have kind of stuck it 2917 02:25:12,520 --> 02:25:16,080 Speaker 6: out for a long time in that neighborhood. The Turkic 2918 02:25:16,120 --> 02:25:21,480 Speaker 6: people are more recent visitors to the neighborhood, and there's 2919 02:25:21,720 --> 02:25:26,480 Speaker 6: nothing wrong with migration of people, but there's something about 2920 02:25:27,240 --> 02:25:29,640 Speaker 6: populations that have been there for a long time that 2921 02:25:29,760 --> 02:25:31,840 Speaker 6: really strikes a nerve if we want to be very 2922 02:25:31,879 --> 02:25:35,760 Speaker 6: mild about it, with the Turkic people, Turkey and Azerbaijan 2923 02:25:36,320 --> 02:25:40,360 Speaker 6: in the sense that they've been engaged in a policy 2924 02:25:40,440 --> 02:25:46,279 Speaker 6: of destroying any remnants of Armenians, including physical people, for 2925 02:25:47,200 --> 02:25:49,640 Speaker 6: least in the eighteen eighties. They've been making them second 2926 02:25:49,680 --> 02:25:53,120 Speaker 6: class citizens since they came in in the Ottoman Empire. 2927 02:25:53,160 --> 02:25:57,240 Speaker 6: There's this myth of the a multicultural society, which is 2928 02:25:57,320 --> 02:26:00,840 Speaker 6: interesting Azerbaijan is also trying to promote. But it really 2929 02:26:01,200 --> 02:26:05,800 Speaker 6: was a second class situation where the minorities in the 2930 02:26:05,800 --> 02:26:10,600 Speaker 6: Ottoman Empire had a lot of extra taxes and duties 2931 02:26:10,680 --> 02:26:14,800 Speaker 6: and persecution than other people in the area. 2932 02:26:15,000 --> 02:26:18,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, so let's talk about this this area then, specifically 2933 02:26:18,840 --> 02:26:22,279 Speaker 4: this area which would be called depending on who you asked, 2934 02:26:22,360 --> 02:26:26,040 Speaker 4: art Zach or Gona Krabak, Right, I think probably it is. 2935 02:26:27,120 --> 02:26:29,000 Speaker 4: I don't know, if I haven't looked on Wikipedia, but 2936 02:26:29,040 --> 02:26:30,879 Speaker 4: like what would the more commonly used terms for people 2937 02:26:30,879 --> 02:26:33,720 Speaker 4: wanting to look it up right in American English. But 2938 02:26:34,280 --> 02:26:37,520 Speaker 4: let's explain why there is a conflict in this area 2939 02:26:37,600 --> 02:26:41,080 Speaker 4: and then what has happened since. I guess we can 2940 02:26:41,120 --> 02:26:43,560 Speaker 4: go from like the fall of the Soviet Union would 2941 02:26:43,560 --> 02:26:44,600 Speaker 4: be a place to. 2942 02:26:44,600 --> 02:26:47,039 Speaker 6: Start, or I mean we talked about earlier. That's the 2943 02:26:47,200 --> 02:26:49,600 Speaker 6: tough thing about talking to rannions, like where I would 2944 02:26:49,600 --> 02:26:51,640 Speaker 6: start with the sixth century and the fall of the 2945 02:26:51,720 --> 02:26:54,920 Speaker 6: kingdom Ratu. Okay, but I guess we don't have that 2946 02:26:55,000 --> 02:26:58,920 Speaker 6: much time. So basically, and I do have to put 2947 02:26:59,000 --> 02:27:02,120 Speaker 6: this in there because there's a big Azerbaijani narrative that 2948 02:27:02,800 --> 02:27:06,560 Speaker 6: Armenians are effective people, they're effective presence. And I'll deal 2949 02:27:06,600 --> 02:27:09,080 Speaker 6: with that in a little bit. Ye, But you know, 2950 02:27:09,200 --> 02:27:11,280 Speaker 6: it's just been recorded by Greek. I mean, I don't 2951 02:27:11,280 --> 02:27:13,200 Speaker 6: know why I should have to prove our existence, but 2952 02:27:13,879 --> 02:27:17,320 Speaker 6: we do. Yeah, So anyway, I record to history that 2953 02:27:17,600 --> 02:27:20,080 Speaker 6: it's where the ourar media and alphabet was invented. These 2954 02:27:20,080 --> 02:27:23,560 Speaker 6: people have been indigenous to the region for thousands of years. 2955 02:27:23,600 --> 02:27:26,200 Speaker 6: They've got a deep connection with the land fall the 2956 02:27:26,240 --> 02:27:29,959 Speaker 6: Soviet Union. Fast forward, there had been under the territory 2957 02:27:30,040 --> 02:27:35,119 Speaker 6: of the Azerbaijani SSR as in a autonomous oblast, as 2958 02:27:35,160 --> 02:27:38,599 Speaker 6: they called it. It had been given to the Azerbaijani 2959 02:27:38,800 --> 02:27:42,840 Speaker 6: SSR because of Stalin, who was the Commissioner of Minorities. 2960 02:27:42,920 --> 02:27:45,600 Speaker 6: Calin has this big project to divide the people, the 2961 02:27:45,640 --> 02:27:48,240 Speaker 6: minorities in the Soviet Union to fight each other, which 2962 02:27:48,280 --> 02:27:51,000 Speaker 6: is ramped up in the nineteen sixties when the Soviets 2963 02:27:51,000 --> 02:27:54,440 Speaker 6: start inventing fake history to pit people against each other, 2964 02:27:54,440 --> 02:28:00,760 Speaker 6: which is wild, but Sloviet Union is crumbling. The people 2965 02:28:00,959 --> 02:28:05,240 Speaker 6: of Artsak, which is the armeniandigenous name Nagaro Karaba, is 2966 02:28:05,240 --> 02:28:08,199 Speaker 6: generally acceptable as well. That's that would be the colonial 2967 02:28:08,280 --> 02:28:11,600 Speaker 6: name or the name that the as Ais call the region. 2968 02:28:12,120 --> 02:28:14,520 Speaker 6: They are fed up with not being able to learn 2969 02:28:14,560 --> 02:28:17,520 Speaker 6: their language because of Azerbaijan. They're fed up with not 2970 02:28:17,600 --> 02:28:20,720 Speaker 6: being able to have any of the rights as Soviet 2971 02:28:20,760 --> 02:28:24,920 Speaker 6: citizens because the father of the current dictator of Azerbaijan 2972 02:28:25,120 --> 02:28:30,359 Speaker 6: was ruining Azerbaijan since nineteen sixty nine and his policy 2973 02:28:30,480 --> 02:28:32,280 Speaker 6: was to try to get as many armedients to move 2974 02:28:32,320 --> 02:28:34,800 Speaker 6: out of the region as possible. So they're fed up 2975 02:28:34,840 --> 02:28:38,160 Speaker 6: with this and they're like okay enough, they legally seceed 2976 02:28:38,240 --> 02:28:42,120 Speaker 6: from the Soviet Union. It's allowed in the Constitution, which 2977 02:28:42,160 --> 02:28:46,280 Speaker 6: of course infuriates that Azerbaijani SSR. You know. So there's 2978 02:28:46,280 --> 02:28:49,440 Speaker 6: a bunch of conflicts. There's the pogroms that happen against 2979 02:28:49,480 --> 02:28:54,400 Speaker 6: Armenians and cities of Baku and Sungate and at which 2980 02:28:54,480 --> 02:28:58,120 Speaker 6: point they seceed fully from the Soviet Union, one of 2981 02:28:58,120 --> 02:29:01,840 Speaker 6: the first areas to do so in nineteen ninety one. 2982 02:29:02,440 --> 02:29:06,039 Speaker 6: They actually left the Soviet Union before Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan with 2983 02:29:06,160 --> 02:29:10,920 Speaker 6: the Soviet Union's troops in bay there's this bloody mess 2984 02:29:10,920 --> 02:29:14,680 Speaker 6: it's called Operation Ring where they're killing Armenians in the area. 2985 02:29:14,760 --> 02:29:20,200 Speaker 6: There's a war that erupts when everybody seceedes. Armenians in 2986 02:29:20,440 --> 02:29:24,359 Speaker 6: Artsak get the upper hand due to they really cared 2987 02:29:24,440 --> 02:29:27,360 Speaker 6: about it and also probably because of racism within the 2988 02:29:27,360 --> 02:29:29,920 Speaker 6: Soviet Union, where they trained Armenians a little bit better 2989 02:29:30,160 --> 02:29:34,320 Speaker 6: than they did Azeris. It's a humiliating defeat for Azerbaijan. 2990 02:29:34,800 --> 02:29:38,800 Speaker 6: Azerbaijan is pushed back. Armenian sees about nine percent of 2991 02:29:38,840 --> 02:29:43,640 Speaker 6: Azerbaijani territory beyond art Soak, and that was a stasis 2992 02:29:44,080 --> 02:29:45,160 Speaker 6: until twenty twenty. 2993 02:29:45,400 --> 02:29:49,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, really yeah, sort of thirty years of right, but 2994 02:29:49,320 --> 02:29:52,280 Speaker 4: it was always disputed right this area was there as 2995 02:29:52,320 --> 02:29:55,000 Speaker 4: we don't continued to lay claim to the Attak region. 2996 02:29:55,040 --> 02:29:55,680 Speaker 8: Is that correct? 2997 02:29:56,000 --> 02:29:59,840 Speaker 6: For some reason, it was never recognized by the UN 2998 02:30:00,120 --> 02:30:03,160 Speaker 6: US being a real country similar to some other places. 2999 02:30:03,879 --> 02:30:06,199 Speaker 6: Why that is is confusing to me because they did 3000 02:30:06,480 --> 02:30:10,280 Speaker 6: leave earlier than anybody else. It is an ethnic minority 3001 02:30:10,600 --> 02:30:13,880 Speaker 6: that chose to leave the area, but it was they 3002 02:30:13,879 --> 02:30:19,039 Speaker 6: weren't considered legitimate by the UN by Azerbaijan, And secondarily, 3003 02:30:19,840 --> 02:30:26,160 Speaker 6: we have this brutal dictatorship that's held together by ethnic hatred. Really, 3004 02:30:27,200 --> 02:30:33,519 Speaker 6: I cannot overstate how terrible the Alif regime is in Azerbaijan. 3005 02:30:34,080 --> 02:30:37,400 Speaker 6: But you know, Urmeni forces committed at least one war 3006 02:30:37,480 --> 02:30:40,120 Speaker 6: crime that I'm aware of during that time in the 3007 02:30:40,160 --> 02:30:42,360 Speaker 6: place that called Joli, where they killed one hundred and 3008 02:30:42,400 --> 02:30:46,000 Speaker 6: eighty to six hundred Azari civilians. And they've used this 3009 02:30:46,080 --> 02:30:48,760 Speaker 6: event and I think one other, to really hold their 3010 02:30:48,840 --> 02:30:52,959 Speaker 6: country together in this pit of brothing, broth of it 3011 02:30:53,160 --> 02:30:58,800 Speaker 6: than hatred. So not till twenty twenty does that really coalesce, 3012 02:30:58,879 --> 02:31:02,119 Speaker 6: Do they become strong as a petro state? To take 3013 02:31:02,200 --> 02:31:04,280 Speaker 6: back large portions of the country. 3014 02:31:04,560 --> 02:31:08,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, talking of taking back, I'm going to have to 3015 02:31:08,120 --> 02:31:10,600 Speaker 4: take back thirty seconds to everyone's time for an advertising 3016 02:31:10,640 --> 02:31:12,720 Speaker 4: break here, So let's do that and we'll. 3017 02:31:12,520 --> 02:31:23,560 Speaker 8: Come right back. How it we're back. 3018 02:31:24,240 --> 02:31:26,000 Speaker 4: One thing I think that it might be illustrative to 3019 02:31:26,040 --> 02:31:30,400 Speaker 4: hear is that, like in the first Adzak War, Turkish 3020 02:31:30,800 --> 02:31:33,640 Speaker 4: I guess it, regulars or mercenaries or what you want 3021 02:31:33,640 --> 02:31:36,720 Speaker 4: to call them, people associated with the Gray Wolves fought 3022 02:31:36,720 --> 02:31:40,680 Speaker 4: on the side of Azubijan right and keen history understanders 3023 02:31:40,680 --> 02:31:44,080 Speaker 4: will know that there is some history of anti Armenian 3024 02:31:44,120 --> 02:31:47,360 Speaker 4: sentiment among the gray Wolves and then indeed in Turkey 3025 02:31:47,400 --> 02:31:51,039 Speaker 4: as a country. So preps, this is a good point 3026 02:31:51,120 --> 02:31:56,320 Speaker 4: to talk about the international involvement here, because I think 3027 02:31:56,360 --> 02:31:58,280 Speaker 4: it's very misleading to do this. As we're seeing in 3028 02:31:58,280 --> 02:32:01,359 Speaker 4: Syria right now, people want to do the world into blocks, 3029 02:32:01,440 --> 02:32:05,520 Speaker 4: right with like this sort of Cold War narrative that 3030 02:32:05,560 --> 02:32:08,760 Speaker 4: we have of Russian interests in US interests, And I 3031 02:32:08,800 --> 02:32:10,960 Speaker 4: think this is an excellent example of why that is 3032 02:32:11,040 --> 02:32:13,840 Speaker 4: not necessarily a great way to perceive the world. So 3033 02:32:14,160 --> 02:32:17,840 Speaker 4: can you explain the international involvement in Artsak and in 3034 02:32:17,879 --> 02:32:20,760 Speaker 4: this ongoing conflict, which we'll get to it beginning again 3035 02:32:20,760 --> 02:32:22,200 Speaker 4: in twenty twenty, I think in a second. 3036 02:32:22,680 --> 02:32:27,240 Speaker 6: In addition to Turkish forces being used in that twenty 3037 02:32:27,280 --> 02:32:29,000 Speaker 6: twenty war, which I guess we'll have to get into 3038 02:32:29,000 --> 02:32:32,160 Speaker 6: a little bit. Yeah, there, Syrian mercenaries were used as well. 3039 02:32:32,200 --> 02:32:34,840 Speaker 6: They were acuted, they were put on the front lines. 3040 02:32:34,879 --> 02:32:37,560 Speaker 6: It's kind of candid fodder. They're given something like one 3041 02:32:37,600 --> 02:32:40,120 Speaker 6: hundred dollars bonus that they beheaded a civilian, a two 3042 02:32:40,160 --> 02:32:44,640 Speaker 6: hundred dollars bonus that they beheaded in Armenian soldier there. 3043 02:32:44,720 --> 02:32:49,000 Speaker 6: But of course, Israel is the primary supplier of Azeri 3044 02:32:49,360 --> 02:32:53,200 Speaker 6: weapons in weaponry, going so far to test some of 3045 02:32:53,200 --> 02:32:57,280 Speaker 6: their drones on manned Armenian outposts early on before the 3046 02:32:57,320 --> 02:33:00,600 Speaker 6: war started. It's fair to say that Azerbaijan could not 3047 02:33:00,680 --> 02:33:04,600 Speaker 6: have been so successful without the aid of their ally, Israel. 3048 02:33:05,280 --> 02:33:08,720 Speaker 6: Israel has been deeply involved in Azerbaijan for a long time. 3049 02:33:08,800 --> 02:33:12,520 Speaker 6: They use Azerbaijan as a listening post against Iran. Israel 3050 02:33:12,640 --> 02:33:16,600 Speaker 6: stages raids from Azerbaijan on Iran and has to do 3051 02:33:16,680 --> 02:33:19,440 Speaker 6: with the ethnic minority in Iran. There's a lot of 3052 02:33:19,560 --> 02:33:22,879 Speaker 6: Azaris down there. Israel get something like forty percent of 3053 02:33:22,920 --> 02:33:28,760 Speaker 6: its oil from Azerbaijan. Right after the Palestinian genocide started, 3054 02:33:29,240 --> 02:33:35,760 Speaker 6: Israel awarded two contracts to the state oil company SOCAR 3055 02:33:36,360 --> 02:33:40,480 Speaker 6: in Azerbaijan that's right adjacent to the Palestinian gas field 3056 02:33:40,520 --> 02:33:44,760 Speaker 6: and the Lebanon oil field to SOCAR to explore. It 3057 02:33:45,040 --> 02:33:48,680 Speaker 6: cannot be overstated how complicit these two groups are with 3058 02:33:48,800 --> 02:33:53,200 Speaker 6: each other. They really really need each other in the region. 3059 02:33:53,200 --> 02:33:55,879 Speaker 6: In the United States also liked Azerbaijan as well. They 3060 02:33:55,920 --> 02:33:59,920 Speaker 6: see it as a friendly Muslim country bulark against Iran 3061 02:34:00,080 --> 02:34:00,600 Speaker 6: as well. 3062 02:34:00,840 --> 02:34:03,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think they also have some Turkish drones. Is 3063 02:34:03,480 --> 02:34:08,240 Speaker 4: that right the bay Car Yes, absolutely. So let's talk 3064 02:34:08,240 --> 02:34:10,280 Speaker 4: about that twenty twenty war, because that was a war 3065 02:34:10,320 --> 02:34:14,320 Speaker 4: that relied heavily on these drones, right, some major means 3066 02:34:14,320 --> 02:34:18,680 Speaker 4: of destroying Armenian armor and pushing that offensive. So what 3067 02:34:18,720 --> 02:34:22,000 Speaker 4: happened in twenty twenty along this disputed border, Well. 3068 02:34:21,879 --> 02:34:26,119 Speaker 6: You know, it's called mountainous Karaba. It's an area that's 3069 02:34:26,560 --> 02:34:30,320 Speaker 6: great defensively if you're fighting in a pre drone world. Yeah, 3070 02:34:30,480 --> 02:34:36,280 Speaker 6: but you know, as you've discovered your Kurdish friends, the 3071 02:34:36,400 --> 02:34:41,640 Speaker 6: drones are amazingly destructive against people hiding in caves, which 3072 02:34:41,680 --> 02:34:45,080 Speaker 6: is what the Armenian response had been. Armenians had been 3073 02:34:45,120 --> 02:34:49,360 Speaker 6: a bit lazy. They've been relying on Russian tanks and weaponry, 3074 02:34:49,520 --> 02:34:53,360 Speaker 6: whereas Arbaijan's is buying from Israel. They're buying from all, 3075 02:34:53,560 --> 02:34:57,640 Speaker 6: you know, many many, just different sources, which reflects the 3076 02:34:57,640 --> 02:35:02,320 Speaker 6: wealth of Azerbaijan, of course. So in twenty twenty, there's 3077 02:35:02,320 --> 02:35:06,000 Speaker 6: some indication that Alif, the dictator of as Evaijhan, had 3078 02:35:06,000 --> 02:35:08,760 Speaker 6: been planning us for a while. He had this playbook 3079 02:35:08,800 --> 02:35:15,039 Speaker 6: called Operation Azeri Smile twenty twenty. The troops move in, 3080 02:35:15,520 --> 02:35:19,680 Speaker 6: they encounter more resistance than they thought, and they get 3081 02:35:20,080 --> 02:35:24,480 Speaker 6: most of the Armenian held territory of Nicardo Karaba back. 3082 02:35:25,160 --> 02:35:29,240 Speaker 6: They're stopped at the last minute, probably by Russian intervention. 3083 02:35:29,360 --> 02:35:32,080 Speaker 6: At this time. The Armenia was a member of the 3084 02:35:32,160 --> 02:35:35,560 Speaker 6: Russian Alliance at that time, which they're leaving just because 3085 02:35:35,600 --> 02:35:37,680 Speaker 6: it's the Russia has failed to live up to its 3086 02:35:37,720 --> 02:35:41,879 Speaker 6: treaty obligations anyway, and it left a kind of a 3087 02:35:41,920 --> 02:35:46,200 Speaker 6: skeletal state of Artak left, which was only supplied by 3088 02:35:46,240 --> 02:35:49,880 Speaker 6: this one road called the Latchin Corridor, that was only 3089 02:35:49,920 --> 02:35:53,280 Speaker 6: one road from Armenia to supply the one hundred and 3090 02:35:53,320 --> 02:35:57,959 Speaker 6: twenty some thousand Armenians who lived in Artzak left, which 3091 02:35:58,080 --> 02:36:02,039 Speaker 6: brings us to twenty twenty four, twenty three, twenty. 3092 02:36:01,720 --> 02:36:03,200 Speaker 10: Two orl Yeah. 3093 02:36:03,320 --> 02:36:06,520 Speaker 4: So yeah, you have this situation where we now have 3094 02:36:06,600 --> 02:36:12,680 Speaker 4: this massive area that I guess occupied a lot of people. 3095 02:36:13,440 --> 02:36:17,160 Speaker 4: People began leaving at that time right through that Latching Corridor, 3096 02:36:17,280 --> 02:36:19,640 Speaker 4: like people didn't feel like they could safely remain there. 3097 02:36:20,080 --> 02:36:24,080 Speaker 6: I mean, the indigenous people of art Sock have this 3098 02:36:24,200 --> 02:36:28,320 Speaker 6: profound relationship with the land and the people. I am 3099 02:36:28,360 --> 02:36:31,920 Speaker 6: an icon painter, and I was talking to my priest 3100 02:36:32,040 --> 02:36:34,440 Speaker 6: and he was comparing the people there to the elves 3101 02:36:34,440 --> 02:36:36,440 Speaker 6: and the lord of the ring. You know, they whistled 3102 02:36:36,480 --> 02:36:38,240 Speaker 6: to the birds. You know, they've just been living with 3103 02:36:38,320 --> 02:36:42,440 Speaker 6: the land for a long time. So there was a drade, 3104 02:36:42,440 --> 02:36:45,439 Speaker 6: but it's not as big as you would have fought, 3105 02:36:45,760 --> 02:36:49,560 Speaker 6: just because there's this intense millennia old connection with the 3106 02:36:49,600 --> 02:36:55,320 Speaker 6: places of art Sock. So what Ezerbay John did, and 3107 02:36:56,000 --> 02:36:59,520 Speaker 6: this is I think unprecedented, is they had a fake 3108 02:36:59,560 --> 02:37:05,240 Speaker 6: equalize protest. Oh wow, that stopped the Lachin Corridor from 3109 02:37:05,280 --> 02:37:10,360 Speaker 6: supplying food in medicine to the people of Artsac, so 3110 02:37:10,440 --> 02:37:14,280 Speaker 6: they starved those people. They denied the medicine, people had 3111 02:37:14,280 --> 02:37:17,800 Speaker 6: miscarriages as areas, were firing at farmers in the field 3112 02:37:17,840 --> 02:37:20,720 Speaker 6: that were trying to collect food, and that went on 3113 02:37:20,840 --> 02:37:25,000 Speaker 6: for nine months. And what stopped what fether By John 3114 02:37:25,400 --> 02:37:28,760 Speaker 6: claimed it was a group of ecological protesters who were 3115 02:37:28,800 --> 02:37:33,320 Speaker 6: stopping trucks of food coming into Artsock for any any reason, 3116 02:37:33,360 --> 02:37:35,680 Speaker 6: which you know is enough of the smoke screen for 3117 02:37:35,760 --> 02:37:38,480 Speaker 6: the Western world to really throw up its hands. 3118 02:37:38,800 --> 02:37:43,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, fascinating. So they literally have a blockade of these protesters. 3119 02:37:43,440 --> 02:37:46,520 Speaker 6: These protesters blocked it. There'sn't The Russian troops that were 3120 02:37:46,520 --> 02:37:50,720 Speaker 6: the peace coopers refused to disperse these protesters. They were 3121 02:37:50,879 --> 02:37:54,600 Speaker 6: these old appraching kind of looking people wearing fur coats. 3122 02:37:55,080 --> 02:37:57,520 Speaker 6: They were identified on social media as actually being members 3123 02:37:57,520 --> 02:38:01,520 Speaker 6: of the Zari military and they had these printed signs 3124 02:38:01,560 --> 02:38:06,360 Speaker 6: that said things like protect nature, stop pollutions, very generic, 3125 02:38:07,080 --> 02:38:10,680 Speaker 6: wildly generic things. Ostensibly, they are against the gold mining 3126 02:38:10,720 --> 02:38:15,080 Speaker 6: operations in artsk which is nuts because a protest is 3127 02:38:15,120 --> 02:38:18,119 Speaker 6: not allowed. And Azerbaijan and THEI there had been an 3128 02:38:18,160 --> 02:38:20,840 Speaker 6: actual protest against a real gold mine that was owned 3129 02:38:20,840 --> 02:38:24,240 Speaker 6: by the daughters of the dictator and they were brutally 3130 02:38:24,280 --> 02:38:28,760 Speaker 6: shut down, you know before, So anybody who was paying 3131 02:38:28,800 --> 02:38:31,800 Speaker 6: any kind of attention to this knew that it was fictive. 3132 02:38:32,560 --> 02:38:35,320 Speaker 6: But I think the EU in particular needing enough of 3133 02:38:35,320 --> 02:38:37,760 Speaker 6: the smoke screen not to support these people. EU. Of 3134 02:38:37,760 --> 02:38:41,600 Speaker 6: course it's getting its gas through Azerbaijan. Yeah, because they've 3135 02:38:42,080 --> 02:38:44,000 Speaker 6: said they don't want it from Russia. But Russia's just 3136 02:38:44,080 --> 02:38:46,600 Speaker 6: feeding its gas to Azerbaijan, and then Azerbaijan is selling 3137 02:38:46,640 --> 02:38:50,640 Speaker 6: it's Azerbaijani gas to the EU. So they were just 3138 02:38:51,160 --> 02:38:51,959 Speaker 6: trying to do that. 3139 02:38:52,240 --> 02:38:54,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, we've just created a pass through and like someone 3140 02:38:54,560 --> 02:38:57,800 Speaker 4: who could live off that rentier income. So let's go 3141 02:38:57,840 --> 02:39:01,160 Speaker 4: to twenty twenty three. Okay, well we see happening in 3142 02:39:01,200 --> 02:39:02,240 Speaker 4: twenty twenty three. 3143 02:39:02,640 --> 02:39:07,360 Speaker 6: So the eco protesters they kind of run their course 3144 02:39:08,000 --> 02:39:13,560 Speaker 6: and then there's a lightning operation art sucks attacked positions overrun. 3145 02:39:13,920 --> 02:39:18,320 Speaker 6: There's this massive exodus of people, people who have to 3146 02:39:18,400 --> 02:39:22,760 Speaker 6: leave their houses immediately. The road is blocked. People are 3147 02:39:22,879 --> 02:39:25,879 Speaker 6: dying on this road on the way out, fighting each other, 3148 02:39:26,400 --> 02:39:30,039 Speaker 6: you know, just to leave their houses. In twenty twenty, 3149 02:39:30,400 --> 02:39:34,080 Speaker 6: Azebaijan has said, sure, you know, our Meetians can come back. 3150 02:39:34,440 --> 02:39:36,520 Speaker 6: We're just taking back a territory. You live here, you 3151 02:39:36,520 --> 02:39:39,640 Speaker 6: can do that. But when Armenians did, there's this one 3152 02:39:39,720 --> 02:39:42,640 Speaker 6: case of a sixty nine year old farmer who went 3153 02:39:42,680 --> 02:39:45,879 Speaker 6: back to get his possessions. Very troops cut off his 3154 02:39:45,959 --> 02:39:49,160 Speaker 6: head Jesus. They put it on a dead pig, and 3155 02:39:49,200 --> 02:39:54,960 Speaker 6: they put all those images on social media. They raped 3156 02:39:54,959 --> 02:39:58,200 Speaker 6: and tortured anybody that they could find left behind, and 3157 02:39:58,520 --> 02:40:02,520 Speaker 6: they turned it into means on stickers that were you know, 3158 02:40:02,600 --> 02:40:04,760 Speaker 6: something like down like twenty thousand times in the five 3159 02:40:04,879 --> 02:40:07,680 Speaker 6: days that were being monitored for this. So there was 3160 02:40:07,840 --> 02:40:10,279 Speaker 6: absolutely no question that people could stay behind. 3161 02:40:10,600 --> 02:40:10,880 Speaker 8: Yeah. 3162 02:40:11,160 --> 02:40:15,720 Speaker 6: Zero. Yeah, So there's no Armenians left. And so there's 3163 02:40:15,800 --> 02:40:20,480 Speaker 6: literally been daily ritual that's been going on for a thousand, 3164 02:40:21,120 --> 02:40:24,240 Speaker 6: seven hundred years that it doesn't go on anymore, and 3165 02:40:24,240 --> 02:40:26,200 Speaker 6: there's a tragedy in that. 3166 02:40:26,440 --> 02:40:28,000 Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, it's been lost. 3167 02:40:28,080 --> 02:40:32,440 Speaker 4: Like yeah, it's hard to quantify that, like you know 3168 02:40:32,640 --> 02:40:34,840 Speaker 4: the meaning of that loss. I think, especially for folks 3169 02:40:34,840 --> 02:40:37,640 Speaker 4: who aren't familiar with people and their culture and the 3170 02:40:37,840 --> 02:40:41,840 Speaker 4: like that connection to these things. Talking of quantifying things, 3171 02:40:42,000 --> 02:40:44,640 Speaker 4: I need to look at the amount of time we 3172 02:40:44,720 --> 02:41:05,640 Speaker 4: got here and pivot again to advertisements. 3173 02:40:56,959 --> 02:41:01,400 Speaker 3: And we're back so what we see. 3174 02:41:01,720 --> 02:41:05,400 Speaker 4: In odds, especially in twenty twenty three, is a project 3175 02:41:05,400 --> 02:41:10,879 Speaker 4: of ethnic cleansing, right, genocidal violence, whatever however you wish 3176 02:41:10,959 --> 02:41:12,760 Speaker 4: to phrase it. I mean ethnic cleansing is not a 3177 02:41:12,840 --> 02:41:15,360 Speaker 4: term that has really like a definition in natural law. 3178 02:41:15,440 --> 02:41:18,600 Speaker 4: Genocide does often very much like in this incidentce I'm 3179 02:41:18,640 --> 02:41:21,640 Speaker 4: using them to mean one and the same things, the 3180 02:41:21,720 --> 02:41:24,760 Speaker 4: removal of people, either through killing them or forcing them 3181 02:41:24,760 --> 02:41:26,000 Speaker 4: to leave or starving them. 3182 02:41:26,120 --> 02:41:30,920 Speaker 6: The International Association gene Side Scholars, the Lumpkin Institute, Luis 3183 02:41:31,000 --> 02:41:34,160 Speaker 6: Moreno Campo is a founding prosecutor the ICC. You on 3184 02:41:34,280 --> 02:41:37,240 Speaker 6: your RESTR. Mendez a special advisor to the Pacer General 3185 02:41:37,600 --> 02:41:40,879 Speaker 6: on genocide prevention. They all call it genocide, so we 3186 02:41:40,920 --> 02:41:43,080 Speaker 6: can call it that, Yeah, we can call it really safe. 3187 02:41:43,400 --> 02:41:46,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, there have been many genocide of products in history. 3188 02:41:46,320 --> 02:41:51,400 Speaker 4: Like what is Azerbaijan's goal with this? Is it the 3189 02:41:51,440 --> 02:41:53,959 Speaker 4: removal of Armenian people with the areas such as as 3190 02:41:53,959 --> 02:41:56,840 Speaker 4: the repeople can occupy it? Is it access to the 3191 02:41:56,920 --> 02:42:00,400 Speaker 4: resources that are there? Is it settling a historical school? 3192 02:42:01,080 --> 02:42:05,120 Speaker 6: If you look at a map, there's this idea of 3193 02:42:05,320 --> 02:42:08,800 Speaker 6: pan Turanism. Is that something that's you're familiar. 3194 02:42:08,320 --> 02:42:10,960 Speaker 4: With yeah, can you explain that to listen to a 3195 02:42:11,080 --> 02:42:13,080 Speaker 4: not Pan Turanism. 3196 02:42:13,320 --> 02:42:19,160 Speaker 6: Is this Turkish idea of an ancient Turkish state that 3197 02:42:19,480 --> 02:42:23,960 Speaker 6: stretches from the Bosphorus all the way over to Mongolia, 3198 02:42:24,240 --> 02:42:27,920 Speaker 6: and there's one little country in the way that is 3199 02:42:28,000 --> 02:42:33,080 Speaker 6: blocking this, this empire that should exist according to the 3200 02:42:33,120 --> 02:42:35,320 Speaker 6: Pan Tyrannism. And this is an old idea, it's a 3201 02:42:35,400 --> 02:42:39,200 Speaker 6: nineteenth century idea. It's blumping in with every Nazi and 3202 02:42:39,320 --> 02:42:44,160 Speaker 6: race junk scientist idea that you have. But that's the idea. 3203 02:42:44,200 --> 02:42:47,920 Speaker 6: And the secondary thing is, you know again Alief is 3204 02:42:49,040 --> 02:42:53,560 Speaker 6: raping his people. He's in presenting every journalist, he's any scientists. 3205 02:42:53,600 --> 02:42:56,440 Speaker 6: It's it's really on a level with truth Mngistan or 3206 02:42:56,440 --> 02:43:00,080 Speaker 6: what was happening in Syria or North Korea. And he 3207 02:43:00,080 --> 02:43:04,600 Speaker 6: needs ethnic hate to keep his country together. He's made 3208 02:43:04,640 --> 02:43:07,879 Speaker 6: an ethnic hate theme park. It's not called that, but 3209 02:43:08,440 --> 02:43:12,959 Speaker 6: that's what it is against Armenians. So yeah, so really 3210 02:43:13,000 --> 02:43:16,440 Speaker 6: I see it as a consolidation of power. He needs 3211 02:43:16,520 --> 02:43:19,080 Speaker 6: an enemy, he needs to move forward, which is why 3212 02:43:19,120 --> 02:43:22,039 Speaker 6: he's threatening to invade Armenia proper. Next. 3213 02:43:22,600 --> 02:43:25,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, and like I think one of the things that 3214 02:43:25,840 --> 02:43:28,840 Speaker 4: happened with the with the conflict in art Zac. I'm 3215 02:43:28,879 --> 02:43:31,640 Speaker 4: just I'm thinking about this, this Panturkic stuff because I 3216 02:43:31,680 --> 02:43:34,360 Speaker 4: see it every single day and their applies to my 3217 02:43:34,440 --> 02:43:37,280 Speaker 4: post on social media. Right. In my case it's with 3218 02:43:37,520 --> 02:43:41,000 Speaker 4: reference to my time in Kurdistan and in Rishaba. This 3219 02:43:41,200 --> 02:43:44,119 Speaker 4: information played a massive role in the in the twenty 3220 02:43:44,160 --> 02:43:46,840 Speaker 4: twenty three contract, in the twenty twenty conflict too, right, 3221 02:43:47,120 --> 02:43:50,160 Speaker 4: And I think people who are hearing about this sort 3222 02:43:50,160 --> 02:43:53,920 Speaker 4: of first time are at massive risk for finding that 3223 02:43:54,000 --> 02:43:55,760 Speaker 4: some of that differ information. Right. They hear about this 3224 02:43:55,840 --> 02:43:57,640 Speaker 4: driving to work today on our podcast and they go 3225 02:43:57,680 --> 02:44:00,480 Speaker 4: to google it. There's a lot of crap out there, right, 3226 02:44:01,120 --> 02:44:03,800 Speaker 4: So can we address that the role that it's played 3227 02:44:03,840 --> 02:44:06,200 Speaker 4: and continues to play. 3228 02:44:05,440 --> 02:44:07,879 Speaker 6: The load of crap or the pan Turanism or both? 3229 02:44:09,240 --> 02:44:12,640 Speaker 4: Well, the pan Turanism generates a lot of crap, right, 3230 02:44:12,680 --> 02:44:15,200 Speaker 4: Like I'm convinced that some of the accounts in my 3231 02:44:15,280 --> 02:44:17,000 Speaker 4: replies are not real human beings. 3232 02:44:17,040 --> 02:44:21,800 Speaker 6: Oh yeah, that's been a well established phenomenon, the number 3233 02:44:21,800 --> 02:44:24,960 Speaker 6: of bots that as of by genre to a lesser 3234 02:44:24,959 --> 02:44:27,320 Speaker 6: except Turkey, because I think Turkey is more secure and 3235 02:44:27,400 --> 02:44:33,800 Speaker 6: it's genocidal aspect, whereas and it's really really going for 3236 02:44:33,920 --> 02:44:36,760 Speaker 6: it you know, so not only the bots in the 3237 02:44:36,800 --> 02:44:39,080 Speaker 6: replies which has come up. No matter what you put 3238 02:44:39,120 --> 02:44:41,879 Speaker 6: in a keyword, there's going to be lots of mentions 3239 02:44:41,920 --> 02:44:44,880 Speaker 6: on your social media. Not to mention there's a pretty 3240 02:44:44,959 --> 02:44:48,640 Speaker 6: vicious campaign out there to dos anybody who talks about 3241 02:44:48,640 --> 02:44:52,640 Speaker 6: this is that's happened to me before and it's not pretty. 3242 02:44:52,800 --> 02:44:53,039 Speaker 8: Yeah. 3243 02:44:53,200 --> 02:44:57,080 Speaker 6: But also there's this thing called mirror propaganda. I don't 3244 02:44:57,120 --> 02:45:00,200 Speaker 6: know if you've heard of that, but there's areas will 3245 02:45:00,240 --> 02:45:04,879 Speaker 6: take something that Armenians say like, oh, our Armenians should 3246 02:45:04,920 --> 02:45:07,080 Speaker 6: go be able to have a right to return, say 3247 02:45:07,440 --> 02:45:12,040 Speaker 6: they drub this huge cloud of they'll take actual documents 3248 02:45:12,320 --> 02:45:15,120 Speaker 6: that have been produced by I don't know, Freedom House, right, yeah, 3249 02:45:15,240 --> 02:45:18,199 Speaker 6: and then they'll copy the entire doc document in format. 3250 02:45:18,320 --> 02:45:22,360 Speaker 6: Things the right of Azarias to return to Western Azerbaijan, 3251 02:45:22,680 --> 02:45:26,120 Speaker 6: which is their new concept, and western iver Dejan is 3252 02:45:26,200 --> 02:45:29,040 Speaker 6: the country of Armenia. So they have these maps where 3253 02:45:29,040 --> 02:45:33,000 Speaker 6: they renamed all the towns of Armenia with azari names. 3254 02:45:33,000 --> 02:45:35,320 Speaker 6: They claim Armenians only came to the region in eighteen 3255 02:45:35,360 --> 02:45:39,160 Speaker 6: twenty eight with the Russians, that they're fake people. Another 3256 02:45:39,200 --> 02:45:43,480 Speaker 6: tragedy of Artsak is they're taking these monasteries and places, 3257 02:45:43,520 --> 02:45:47,320 Speaker 6: not only destroying them but chiseling off ancient inscriptions to 3258 02:45:47,320 --> 02:45:50,080 Speaker 6: prove that Armenians didn't exist there. They've already done this 3259 02:45:50,120 --> 02:45:52,120 Speaker 6: in this other place called Natchivan, which is they call 3260 02:45:52,160 --> 02:45:54,600 Speaker 6: it the largest cultural genocide of the twenty first century, 3261 02:45:54,640 --> 02:45:59,320 Speaker 6: where they destroyed thousands of medieval monuments in stones with 3262 02:45:59,400 --> 02:46:04,800 Speaker 6: buljos and sledgehammers. So they're just wiping them out, any 3263 02:46:04,959 --> 02:46:07,960 Speaker 6: record of our medium, anything in they're claiming Armenia. It 3264 02:46:08,080 --> 02:46:11,680 Speaker 6: is really should be called Western Hazeraijan. And anytime Armenians 3265 02:46:11,720 --> 02:46:13,840 Speaker 6: talk about arts that going back, they're like, well, we. 3266 02:46:14,000 --> 02:46:18,200 Speaker 16: They made cookbooks, they've got a television show Western Basan, 3267 02:46:18,280 --> 02:46:21,200 Speaker 16: and it's just it's what you're laughing and I laugh too, 3268 02:46:21,240 --> 02:46:24,959 Speaker 16: but it's it's so ugly, so scary, but it's funny too. 3269 02:46:25,520 --> 02:46:28,480 Speaker 8: Yeah, And if these things are intil it's your grandma 3270 02:46:28,840 --> 02:46:30,760 Speaker 8: or have you been beheaded? 3271 02:46:31,600 --> 02:46:34,320 Speaker 4: Like yes, it does seem it does seem obscene, and 3272 02:46:34,360 --> 02:46:36,800 Speaker 4: it's so obscene that it's funny. Right, But like this 3273 02:46:37,000 --> 02:46:41,440 Speaker 4: is a concerted state project, right that, Like it's easy 3274 02:46:41,480 --> 02:46:43,680 Speaker 4: to get caught up in, and it's easy to get 3275 02:46:43,680 --> 02:46:47,640 Speaker 4: caught in this disinformation machine, not just from like like 3276 02:46:47,640 --> 02:46:49,920 Speaker 4: like a botty in your replies, but from news like 3277 02:46:49,959 --> 02:46:54,039 Speaker 4: you say, news outlets, or like doctored reports or things 3278 02:46:54,040 --> 02:46:55,879 Speaker 4: that look very convincing. 3279 02:46:55,760 --> 02:46:58,560 Speaker 6: Search results that go to the top. I mean, you know, 3280 02:46:58,600 --> 02:47:01,400 Speaker 6: on this course started with the writing andocide which ors 3281 02:47:01,640 --> 02:47:05,200 Speaker 6: Turkey and Azebay. John in Pakistan for some reason say 3282 02:47:05,240 --> 02:47:08,160 Speaker 6: it was fake. If you search for that, the top 3283 02:47:08,160 --> 02:47:10,160 Speaker 6: results are going to be our means are lying, they 3284 02:47:10,160 --> 02:47:12,680 Speaker 6: committed to genocide with us, And then they'll throw these 3285 02:47:12,760 --> 02:47:15,000 Speaker 6: numbers like, oh yeah, ARMANI it's killed three million turns, 3286 02:47:15,000 --> 02:47:17,359 Speaker 6: Like what are you talking about? These It's just like 3287 02:47:17,360 --> 02:47:19,359 Speaker 6: like words have meaning. 3288 02:47:19,200 --> 02:47:23,600 Speaker 8: You know, but increasingly less and less. 3289 02:47:23,040 --> 02:47:25,240 Speaker 6: Less and less. You know. There's that great Hannah Art 3290 02:47:25,360 --> 02:47:28,680 Speaker 6: line about constant lying is not aimed at making people 3291 02:47:28,720 --> 02:47:32,080 Speaker 6: believe a lie, but ensuring that no one believes anything anymore, 3292 02:47:32,360 --> 02:47:34,120 Speaker 6: and that's what they want. We're an obscure part of 3293 02:47:34,120 --> 02:47:36,720 Speaker 6: the world. This will say a bunch of shit, and 3294 02:47:37,440 --> 02:47:39,120 Speaker 6: people throw up their hands and walk away. 3295 02:47:39,240 --> 02:47:41,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, oh it's too complicated, and so. 3296 02:47:41,240 --> 02:47:44,560 Speaker 6: They too complicated, right yeah, Or you know, they'll say, oh, 3297 02:47:44,560 --> 02:47:48,160 Speaker 6: it's ancient hatreds and like that's bullshit. It's not ancient hatreds. 3298 02:47:48,160 --> 02:47:50,800 Speaker 6: It's a very modern thing. These are real people who 3299 02:47:50,840 --> 02:47:54,560 Speaker 6: have real understandable issues, you know, like in Gaza, it's 3300 02:47:54,640 --> 02:47:58,680 Speaker 6: like it's very clear, Yeah what's going on? Yeah? 3301 02:47:58,720 --> 02:48:00,879 Speaker 4: Yeah, I have the different sterias that have received a 3302 02:48:00,879 --> 02:48:04,360 Speaker 4: lot more coverage and longbow attention. So where does this 3303 02:48:04,600 --> 02:48:06,400 Speaker 4: leave us now? 3304 02:48:06,520 --> 02:48:06,720 Speaker 6: Right? 3305 02:48:06,800 --> 02:48:10,400 Speaker 4: As ab Giant has just hosted this conference, and like 3306 02:48:11,080 --> 02:48:14,800 Speaker 4: it's important to recognize that this conference is it's a 3307 02:48:14,800 --> 02:48:19,040 Speaker 4: project of kind of global liberalism right to the cop conference, 3308 02:48:19,040 --> 02:48:22,879 Speaker 4: and like it conveys legitimacy, and in this case, it's 3309 02:48:22,879 --> 02:48:26,440 Speaker 4: a means of kind of laundering legitimacy right for this 3310 02:48:27,120 --> 02:48:31,040 Speaker 4: Carabuck project in their case, right through the lens of 3311 02:48:31,760 --> 02:48:35,160 Speaker 4: protecting the planet. Where do they go from there? 3312 02:48:35,879 --> 02:48:39,119 Speaker 6: Well, So what makes the dictatorship as Down a little 3313 02:48:39,160 --> 02:48:42,760 Speaker 6: bit different from these other dictatorships I mentioned is I 3314 02:48:42,800 --> 02:48:46,119 Speaker 6: think they care about what people think a little bit. 3315 02:48:46,280 --> 02:48:50,760 Speaker 6: They bring in F one racing, the Eurovision. They really 3316 02:48:50,840 --> 02:48:54,880 Speaker 6: do these projects because they want to be seen as 3317 02:48:55,120 --> 02:48:58,800 Speaker 6: a legitimate state, where I think those others like North Korea, 3318 02:48:58,840 --> 02:49:00,520 Speaker 6: they don't do that. Like, no, it's going to like 3319 02:49:00,600 --> 02:49:03,560 Speaker 6: us no matter what we do. Yeah, giving up they 3320 02:49:03,600 --> 02:49:08,000 Speaker 6: want to play on the international stage. So that's one aspect. 3321 02:49:08,040 --> 02:49:12,480 Speaker 6: Another aspect, it legitimizes themselves to their internal critics. People 3322 02:49:12,480 --> 02:49:15,160 Speaker 6: as their Bajana smart they know what's going on, but 3323 02:49:15,360 --> 02:49:18,720 Speaker 6: they say, oh, the world is coming to us. The 3324 02:49:18,760 --> 02:49:23,879 Speaker 6: world accepts us. They must, you know, accept the brutal 3325 02:49:23,920 --> 02:49:28,000 Speaker 6: dictatorship that's cracking down anybody's gay, lesbian, anything you know, 3326 02:49:28,800 --> 02:49:32,400 Speaker 6: orchure is a feature of this regime. So it legitimizes 3327 02:49:32,440 --> 02:49:36,640 Speaker 6: themselves internally. Yeah, and what they fear, I guess is 3328 02:49:36,680 --> 02:49:39,640 Speaker 6: people were getting angry that they invade Armenia. So it's 3329 02:49:39,680 --> 02:49:42,480 Speaker 6: just I think it's that chene. Now we could argue 3330 02:49:42,480 --> 02:49:45,360 Speaker 6: whether that was effective because COP twenty nine was an 3331 02:49:45,600 --> 02:49:49,840 Speaker 6: absolute train wreck for them, but I'm not sure that 3332 02:49:49,920 --> 02:49:53,480 Speaker 6: matters to them right. Matters to the environment, Yeah. 3333 02:49:53,480 --> 02:49:55,400 Speaker 4: I think probably these COP conferences are not going to 3334 02:49:55,440 --> 02:49:58,560 Speaker 4: be the way we solve our our issues with climate change. 3335 02:49:58,560 --> 02:50:03,480 Speaker 4: But that's an another conversation. And going forward, like what 3336 02:50:03,920 --> 02:50:07,560 Speaker 4: is the status of odds? What can those people, those 3337 02:50:07,560 --> 02:50:10,720 Speaker 4: people who were able to leave, Like what does the 3338 02:50:10,760 --> 02:50:14,800 Speaker 4: future hold for them? Are they sort of refugees in media? 3339 02:50:14,840 --> 02:50:18,760 Speaker 6: Now there are refugees are Armenia Amenia is a poor state, 3340 02:50:18,840 --> 02:50:23,160 Speaker 6: doesn't have the oil reserves. The Azerbaijan just announced that 3341 02:50:23,200 --> 02:50:27,200 Speaker 6: they're increased their military budget by twenty percent. It was 3342 02:50:27,280 --> 02:50:32,400 Speaker 6: already incredibly high last time I got statistics. The flights 3343 02:50:32,400 --> 02:50:37,600 Speaker 6: from of Dah, which is the Israeli military insulation for 3344 02:50:37,680 --> 02:50:42,039 Speaker 6: flying equipment to Azerbaijan, has ramped up. It's higher than 3345 02:50:42,040 --> 02:50:45,080 Speaker 6: it was in twenty twenty before their invasions, on par 3346 02:50:45,200 --> 02:50:47,840 Speaker 6: for twenty twenty three. So that's a pretty clear sign 3347 02:50:47,959 --> 02:50:52,640 Speaker 6: that they're getting all their equipment from Israel. They stopped 3348 02:50:52,800 --> 02:50:54,800 Speaker 6: before copp and so I haven't been able to get 3349 02:50:54,879 --> 02:51:00,760 Speaker 6: data on that since then. Azerbaijan just issued a declaration 3350 02:51:01,360 --> 02:51:05,800 Speaker 6: that parents cannot visit their children in the military, and 3351 02:51:05,920 --> 02:51:10,879 Speaker 6: that's a bad, bad sign. So the question is not 3352 02:51:11,600 --> 02:51:14,320 Speaker 6: if it's win, it is winter or I mean, he has 3353 02:51:14,360 --> 02:51:16,480 Speaker 6: a lot of mountains. Those are pretty good defend people 3354 02:51:16,520 --> 02:51:19,000 Speaker 6: are figured out. Sure, you've talked to your friends of 3355 02:51:19,040 --> 02:51:22,000 Speaker 6: our Java. They figured out drones a little bit, how 3356 02:51:22,040 --> 02:51:24,760 Speaker 6: to deal with them better. I mean, he has reached 3357 02:51:24,800 --> 02:51:28,600 Speaker 6: out to France, who's been helping them a little bit. 3358 02:51:29,120 --> 02:51:34,520 Speaker 6: Azby John says there's some conditions for peace that are insane, 3359 02:51:34,640 --> 02:51:37,520 Speaker 6: you know, like change your constitution is one, get rid 3360 02:51:37,520 --> 02:51:41,480 Speaker 6: of all EU observers is another. Don't get any new weapons, 3361 02:51:42,200 --> 02:51:44,760 Speaker 6: and then give us the what's called this Zuger corridor, 3362 02:51:44,840 --> 02:51:48,080 Speaker 6: which is like this road that goes to their exclave 3363 02:51:48,160 --> 02:51:51,080 Speaker 6: Naccheban to the to the west there, and it's just 3364 02:51:51,080 --> 02:51:54,520 Speaker 6: like you can't stay. No country is going to do that. 3365 02:51:54,680 --> 02:51:56,720 Speaker 6: Oh and they've got another claim, which is they say, 3366 02:51:56,760 --> 02:52:00,879 Speaker 6: allow the UNESCO to visit Armenia to bick out erased 3367 02:52:00,920 --> 02:52:05,920 Speaker 6: Azerbaijani sites, which is just a mirror propacanda insanity because 3368 02:52:06,000 --> 02:52:09,240 Speaker 6: Unesca's already in our media and Armenia asked that of 3369 02:52:09,360 --> 02:52:10,680 Speaker 6: UNESCO for Azerbaijan. 3370 02:52:10,840 --> 02:52:14,640 Speaker 4: But yeah, of course they just copy that right and 3371 02:52:14,680 --> 02:52:15,920 Speaker 4: say well why do you do it? 3372 02:52:16,120 --> 02:52:19,160 Speaker 6: Yeah, right, which you know is not a real thing. 3373 02:52:19,200 --> 02:52:21,320 Speaker 6: But anyway, so those are a conditions piece. So it 3374 02:52:21,480 --> 02:52:27,520 Speaker 6: seems probable that Azerbaijan will invade, possibly in spring because 3375 02:52:27,680 --> 02:52:30,560 Speaker 6: the snow will melt it away. Possibly now, because Alia 3376 02:52:30,720 --> 02:52:33,640 Speaker 6: seems like he's very angry that the world kind of 3377 02:52:33,640 --> 02:52:36,920 Speaker 6: paid attention to Cop twenty nine is figuring out that 3378 02:52:36,959 --> 02:52:40,720 Speaker 6: he's a dick, and he's ramped up in arrest in 3379 02:52:40,760 --> 02:52:43,640 Speaker 6: his own country. He does arrest an entire television station 3380 02:52:44,200 --> 02:52:47,400 Speaker 6: of people that were you can it's it's one of 3381 02:52:47,440 --> 02:52:50,080 Speaker 6: the least press free countries on Earth. But I guess 3382 02:52:50,120 --> 02:52:54,840 Speaker 6: people were doing something before that. And they'll either take 3383 02:52:55,120 --> 02:53:00,160 Speaker 6: the southern half of Armenia or they'll take all of it, 3384 02:53:00,280 --> 02:53:03,600 Speaker 6: because they say Yerevan, the capital of Armenians, is historically 3385 02:53:03,640 --> 02:53:08,320 Speaker 6: part of Azerbaijan. So that's a state where we're at there, 3386 02:53:08,640 --> 02:53:14,040 Speaker 6: And I really think any other perspectives are wishful thinking, 3387 02:53:14,080 --> 02:53:17,560 Speaker 6: and I'm Sartaly so grim about that, but it's I 3388 02:53:17,600 --> 02:53:21,320 Speaker 6: think it's a very real possibility that there's Armenian genocide, 3389 02:53:21,320 --> 02:53:25,360 Speaker 6: that it's killed literally, you know, accountable millions of Armenians 3390 02:53:25,360 --> 02:53:29,480 Speaker 6: since the eighteen nineties and ramped up through nineteen fifteen 3391 02:53:29,560 --> 02:53:32,160 Speaker 6: through nineteen twenty three, and then socide a little bit 3392 02:53:32,240 --> 02:53:37,000 Speaker 6: is ongoing and their project will be completed in the 3393 02:53:37,040 --> 02:53:37,520 Speaker 6: next year. 3394 02:53:38,520 --> 02:53:39,840 Speaker 8: Yeah, that's pretty bleak. 3395 02:53:40,560 --> 02:53:43,040 Speaker 4: How can people they want to be in solid director 3396 02:53:43,080 --> 02:53:44,680 Speaker 4: if they want to support I think this is something 3397 02:53:44,720 --> 02:53:46,680 Speaker 4: that doesn't get reported on right in the US, even 3398 02:53:46,720 --> 02:53:48,040 Speaker 4: though they just want to learn more. 3399 02:53:48,560 --> 02:53:50,240 Speaker 3: How can they do that? Where can they go? 3400 02:53:50,680 --> 02:53:53,039 Speaker 6: There's a good site. This has learned for art SoC 3401 02:53:53,480 --> 02:53:58,000 Speaker 6: that's a good site. There's a bunch of Armenian web 3402 02:53:58,240 --> 02:54:03,240 Speaker 6: sites that people can go to. May I post some 3403 02:54:03,240 --> 02:54:06,080 Speaker 6: some links on the show notes? Would that be that'd 3404 02:54:06,080 --> 02:54:07,120 Speaker 6: be good? Yeah? 3405 02:54:07,160 --> 02:54:08,760 Speaker 8: Well absolutely, Betters in the show notes. 3406 02:54:08,800 --> 02:54:11,560 Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I would be very happy to do that 3407 02:54:11,720 --> 02:54:14,920 Speaker 6: if people want to donate things. But it's similar to 3408 02:54:15,160 --> 02:54:20,039 Speaker 6: Gaza or other places, like what what does awareness to do? 3409 02:54:20,640 --> 02:54:24,560 Speaker 6: I guess it could slow things down, Yeah, but really 3410 02:54:24,760 --> 02:54:29,520 Speaker 6: we just need state actors to respond to this. Our 3411 02:54:29,560 --> 02:54:32,720 Speaker 6: meetings get very cynically used in France and in the 3412 02:54:32,800 --> 02:54:36,040 Speaker 6: United States by right wing politicians who claim that they're 3413 02:54:36,040 --> 02:54:39,720 Speaker 6: protecting Christians. But I don't think that's something that will 3414 02:54:39,760 --> 02:54:40,600 Speaker 6: actually happen. 3415 02:54:40,800 --> 02:54:42,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean people think the same thing for a 3416 02:54:42,840 --> 02:54:45,200 Speaker 4: sad right that he protected Christians in Syria while he 3417 02:54:45,560 --> 02:54:47,640 Speaker 4: Yea murdered to gas his own people. 3418 02:54:47,879 --> 02:54:48,359 Speaker 6: Exactly. 3419 02:54:49,080 --> 02:54:52,160 Speaker 8: That's a best a cynical thing and a worse justification. 3420 02:54:52,280 --> 02:54:54,840 Speaker 6: I mean, what have you seen that's effective in terms 3421 02:54:54,840 --> 02:54:58,240 Speaker 6: of world action for these things with the Kurds or 3422 02:54:58,320 --> 02:54:58,920 Speaker 6: other people? 3423 02:54:59,120 --> 02:55:02,440 Speaker 4: I mean, look, and we talk about how the Kurds 3424 02:55:02,480 --> 02:55:07,360 Speaker 4: have defended themselves from get a state project to eliminate them. Right, 3425 02:55:08,480 --> 02:55:11,879 Speaker 4: in some areas they haven't been able to, right, and 3426 02:55:11,920 --> 02:55:14,200 Speaker 4: when they have it's through their own armed initiative for 3427 02:55:14,200 --> 02:55:16,360 Speaker 4: the most part. Right that they were very fortunate to 3428 02:55:16,400 --> 02:55:18,000 Speaker 4: have the support of the United States. But that was 3429 02:55:18,040 --> 02:55:21,119 Speaker 4: only ever in the battle against Isis. It wasn't when 3430 02:55:21,680 --> 02:55:26,120 Speaker 4: genocidal violence, right, this genocidal project in a free and 3431 02:55:26,400 --> 02:55:30,280 Speaker 4: where we're seeing it right now in powerfact, the US 3432 02:55:30,360 --> 02:55:32,680 Speaker 4: didn't stand beside them there. And it's not in its 3433 02:55:32,760 --> 02:55:36,680 Speaker 4: nature too. And I think this is a really difficult 3434 02:55:36,720 --> 02:55:39,000 Speaker 4: situation that we find ourselves in all around the world 3435 02:55:39,120 --> 02:55:42,240 Speaker 4: right now, right, we see we've seen this in Africa too, Right, 3436 02:55:42,720 --> 02:55:45,720 Speaker 4: it's not really in the nature of the United States, 3437 02:55:45,720 --> 02:55:50,560 Speaker 4: not in this century, to intervene simply for human rights reasons, 3438 02:55:50,640 --> 02:55:53,560 Speaker 4: simply because it because genocide is wrong. 3439 02:55:54,200 --> 02:55:56,080 Speaker 6: We had a person that Sam had the power, who 3440 02:55:56,080 --> 02:55:58,240 Speaker 6: wrote a book on how genocide is wrong and we 3441 02:55:58,240 --> 02:56:00,440 Speaker 6: should intervene. And then what happens when she's the tower 3442 02:56:00,480 --> 02:56:01,480 Speaker 6: with Obama and Biden. 3443 02:56:03,040 --> 02:56:05,920 Speaker 4: We draw red lines and then less sad walk over them, 3444 02:56:06,120 --> 02:56:08,680 Speaker 4: like it happens all over the world. And I think, yeah, 3445 02:56:08,720 --> 02:56:10,520 Speaker 4: we're probably in a post hedge and monic era, But 3446 02:56:10,560 --> 02:56:13,560 Speaker 4: that doesn't mean that people deserve to die because we're 3447 02:56:13,560 --> 02:56:14,720 Speaker 4: in a post Hedge and Monic era. 3448 02:56:15,520 --> 02:56:15,800 Speaker 6: I know. 3449 02:56:16,160 --> 02:56:18,120 Speaker 4: Look, if I look at the other genocide, which I've 3450 02:56:18,160 --> 02:56:22,320 Speaker 4: spent more time with than most genocides, the weird thing 3451 02:56:22,440 --> 02:56:25,920 Speaker 4: to say, it's the genocide in Meammar. Of the range 3452 02:56:25,959 --> 02:56:31,200 Speaker 4: of people, they are still facing genocidal violence now, even 3453 02:56:31,240 --> 02:56:36,360 Speaker 4: from anti hunter groups. But I also see Muslim people 3454 02:56:37,040 --> 02:56:41,120 Speaker 4: in the current National Liberation Army. I see them fighting 3455 02:56:41,240 --> 02:56:44,760 Speaker 4: with the k and DF, and the way that those 3456 02:56:44,800 --> 02:56:48,920 Speaker 4: people liberated themselves was like from the bottom up, and 3457 02:56:49,000 --> 02:56:52,480 Speaker 4: I think that, like I find some hope in what's 3458 02:56:52,480 --> 02:56:54,840 Speaker 4: happening in Kurdistan and what's happening in me Ammar. And 3459 02:56:54,920 --> 02:56:57,280 Speaker 4: I don't see very much from the Community of States, 3460 02:56:57,280 --> 02:57:00,360 Speaker 4: so much of the thing that even fucking exists. I 3461 02:57:00,400 --> 02:57:03,560 Speaker 4: don't really believe that state to have a conscience. And yes, 3462 02:57:03,959 --> 02:57:05,760 Speaker 4: I don't think it's in their nature to care about people, 3463 02:57:05,760 --> 02:57:08,160 Speaker 4: because people are inherently valuable. But I do think people do, 3464 02:57:08,360 --> 02:57:10,000 Speaker 4: and I do think it is in the nature of 3465 02:57:10,040 --> 02:57:10,720 Speaker 4: people to care. 3466 02:57:10,800 --> 02:57:12,879 Speaker 8: So I guess we have to continue to hope. 3467 02:57:13,120 --> 02:57:15,920 Speaker 6: And there has been some positive statements by your Java 3468 02:57:16,120 --> 02:57:19,400 Speaker 6: regarding our Medians and there's a lot of solidarity there, 3469 02:57:19,440 --> 02:57:21,879 Speaker 6: which it was great. You know, Kurt's helped commit the 3470 02:57:21,879 --> 02:57:25,520 Speaker 6: first Armenian genocide and they've apologized, and so I'm seeing 3471 02:57:25,520 --> 02:57:28,920 Speaker 6: a little glimmers of hope in terms of the solidarity 3472 02:57:29,000 --> 02:57:32,560 Speaker 6: of people who see what's right and wrong who aren't 3473 02:57:32,600 --> 02:57:34,680 Speaker 6: state actors. That's absolutely right. 3474 02:57:34,959 --> 02:57:37,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, one of the things people, there's another thing that 3475 02:57:37,640 --> 02:57:39,680 Speaker 4: will be deployed very often. The Kurds are responsible for 3476 02:57:39,720 --> 02:57:41,760 Speaker 4: the Armenian genocide. Court if people were part of the 3477 02:57:41,840 --> 02:57:44,640 Speaker 4: Armenian genocide, and they will acknowledge that, and they've tried 3478 02:57:44,680 --> 02:57:45,560 Speaker 4: to make amends for it. 3479 02:57:45,720 --> 02:57:47,920 Speaker 6: Yes, exactly right, and that's all. 3480 02:57:48,760 --> 02:57:52,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, like we're here now, we're not prisoners of our history, 3481 02:57:52,840 --> 02:57:54,400 Speaker 4: but we have to acknowledge it so that we can 3482 02:57:54,480 --> 02:57:55,080 Speaker 4: move from it. 3483 02:57:55,720 --> 02:57:57,920 Speaker 3: Thank you for sharing all that, Yes, thank you. 3484 02:57:58,080 --> 02:58:00,080 Speaker 4: Is there anything else that we've failed to address, so 3485 02:58:00,120 --> 02:58:02,920 Speaker 4: you want to get in quickly before we I mean, yes, 3486 02:58:03,040 --> 02:58:04,240 Speaker 4: estousands of you as of stuff. 3487 02:58:04,320 --> 02:58:09,640 Speaker 6: But you know, visit Armenia. It's still called one of 3488 02:58:09,680 --> 02:58:12,279 Speaker 6: the safest places on earth. Is it's been rated safer 3489 02:58:12,320 --> 02:58:16,519 Speaker 6: than Japan. It's a beautiful place, it's a struggling democracy, 3490 02:58:16,560 --> 02:58:20,360 Speaker 6: but it's the only democracy in the area. Try to 3491 02:58:20,400 --> 02:58:24,680 Speaker 6: pay attention to the news, you know, is Hackeys. It 3492 02:58:24,760 --> 02:58:31,240 Speaker 6: seems right, your senator, you know, like I just feel 3493 02:58:31,280 --> 02:58:34,120 Speaker 6: wrong saying that, but what else can we do? Right? 3494 02:58:34,720 --> 02:58:38,440 Speaker 6: If you're in Britain, the UK is an incredibly agregious 3495 02:58:38,440 --> 02:58:43,920 Speaker 6: supporter of Azerbaijan through British petroleum. Really, you people probably 3496 02:58:43,959 --> 02:58:47,080 Speaker 6: can have the biggest effect because the UK is the 3497 02:58:47,080 --> 02:58:51,640 Speaker 6: biggest enabler of those dirt bags. And thank you for 3498 02:58:51,720 --> 02:58:56,039 Speaker 6: the time. I really appreciate it. And I don't feel 3499 02:58:56,080 --> 02:58:59,440 Speaker 6: like I've done justice to two thousand, five hundred years 3500 02:58:59,480 --> 02:59:02,160 Speaker 6: of history, but thank you so much. 3501 02:59:02,560 --> 02:59:04,119 Speaker 4: No, I think it's great. Is there any way people 3502 02:59:04,120 --> 02:59:05,720 Speaker 4: can follow you online if they'd like to? 3503 02:59:05,959 --> 02:59:09,440 Speaker 6: Oh, absolutely not. I'm tired of getting docs. 3504 02:59:09,480 --> 02:59:11,160 Speaker 8: Excellent, Yes, pretty fit event. 3505 02:59:12,200 --> 02:59:14,520 Speaker 6: You know, And that's why I pin icons. This is 3506 02:59:14,520 --> 02:59:16,240 Speaker 6: because it's it's anonymous, you know. 3507 02:59:18,600 --> 02:59:19,320 Speaker 8: Very offline. 3508 02:59:19,760 --> 02:59:23,199 Speaker 6: But yeah, but thank you so much, great. 3509 02:59:23,040 --> 02:59:23,440 Speaker 8: Thank you. 3510 02:59:50,680 --> 02:59:52,000 Speaker 10: This is it could happen here. 3511 02:59:52,080 --> 02:59:55,400 Speaker 2: Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the 3512 02:59:55,400 --> 02:59:58,240 Speaker 2: White House, the crumbling of our world and what it 3513 02:59:58,280 --> 03:00:01,000 Speaker 2: means for you. I'm Garrison David today, I'm joined by 3514 03:00:01,040 --> 03:00:04,760 Speaker 2: Mia Wong, James Stout, and Robert Evans. This week we 3515 03:00:04,840 --> 03:00:08,160 Speaker 2: are covering the week of January twenty ninth to February fifth, 3516 03:00:08,600 --> 03:00:11,680 Speaker 2: and oh boy, has this week felt like a month. 3517 03:00:12,240 --> 03:00:17,039 Speaker 2: I am absolutely exhausted. And let's start, I guess by 3518 03:00:17,120 --> 03:00:19,360 Speaker 2: talking about what Trump did. 3519 03:00:19,640 --> 03:00:20,600 Speaker 10: Tuesday night. 3520 03:00:21,160 --> 03:00:24,840 Speaker 2: He had a press conference with both himself and Israeli 3521 03:00:24,840 --> 03:00:27,920 Speaker 2: Prime Minister Benjamin and Yahoo to announce that the United 3522 03:00:27,920 --> 03:00:32,040 Speaker 2: States would quote unquote take over the Gaza Strip, resulting 3523 03:00:32,040 --> 03:00:37,120 Speaker 2: in quote unquote long term ownership Previously. On that day, 3524 03:00:37,240 --> 03:00:39,199 Speaker 2: Trump also signed an order pulling out of the United 3525 03:00:39,280 --> 03:00:42,760 Speaker 2: Nations Human Rights Council and cutting off aid to UNRA. 3526 03:00:43,440 --> 03:00:46,280 Speaker 2: Let's start with this topic. Hopefully we will have a 3527 03:00:46,320 --> 03:00:50,240 Speaker 2: later episode maybe next week, covering what's happening in Palestine. 3528 03:00:50,840 --> 03:00:53,240 Speaker 2: But you know, this is, as of right now, the 3529 03:00:53,360 --> 03:00:54,600 Speaker 2: current most development. 3530 03:00:55,000 --> 03:00:58,520 Speaker 4: This is one of the more like crazy things that 3531 03:00:58,560 --> 03:01:01,480 Speaker 4: he's like, like you could see Netanyahoo even like in 3532 03:01:01,520 --> 03:01:04,000 Speaker 4: the room clearly finding out about this for the first time. 3533 03:01:05,000 --> 03:01:07,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a real, oh shit, really vibe. 3534 03:01:08,120 --> 03:01:10,000 Speaker 2: I'm not sure how long Trump and Nan Yaho actually 3535 03:01:10,000 --> 03:01:12,520 Speaker 2: had this like entire thing planned that that is a 3536 03:01:12,560 --> 03:01:15,680 Speaker 2: distinct possibility that like this has been Netanyahu's goal for 3537 03:01:15,720 --> 03:01:19,000 Speaker 2: a while, and this was like impacted his negotiations with Biden, 3538 03:01:19,440 --> 03:01:21,640 Speaker 2: like knowing that he wanted this to be like the 3539 03:01:21,680 --> 03:01:24,240 Speaker 2: outcome where the US basically just takes and holds the 3540 03:01:24,360 --> 03:01:27,720 Speaker 2: territory of Gaza as a US territory, like indefinitely. 3541 03:01:27,920 --> 03:01:30,520 Speaker 4: I think Babe knew that Trump would give him a 3542 03:01:30,560 --> 03:01:33,000 Speaker 4: positive outcome in any number of ways, right, like to 3543 03:01:33,080 --> 03:01:35,640 Speaker 4: include just saying like bomb it off the map, Like 3544 03:01:35,680 --> 03:01:37,640 Speaker 4: I think it's reasonable to assume that. 3545 03:01:37,640 --> 03:01:39,720 Speaker 1: Well, and I mean something like this was I think 3546 03:01:39,800 --> 03:01:42,480 Speaker 1: the obvious outcome as soon as Trump, I mean from 3547 03:01:42,520 --> 03:01:45,800 Speaker 1: before Trump won, right, Yeah, net Yahoo never had any 3548 03:01:45,800 --> 03:01:47,880 Speaker 1: intention of letting things go back to the way they 3549 03:01:47,920 --> 03:01:51,920 Speaker 1: were before October seventh, and Trump has a vested interest 3550 03:01:52,040 --> 03:01:56,600 Speaker 1: in giving Netanyahu whatever he wants the most, Like it's 3551 03:01:56,680 --> 03:01:59,560 Speaker 1: a I don't know, I'm not surprised by it. I 3552 03:01:59,760 --> 03:02:03,400 Speaker 1: guess I'm a little bit like, Okay, at least now 3553 03:02:03,520 --> 03:02:06,160 Speaker 1: we know what they're going to do next. 3554 03:02:06,840 --> 03:02:09,400 Speaker 2: It's in line with the manifest destiny territorial expansion and 3555 03:02:09,440 --> 03:02:11,760 Speaker 2: Trump has been talking about the past few weeks. Yeah, 3556 03:02:11,800 --> 03:02:15,039 Speaker 2: I mean Joe Biden laid the groundwork for this by 3557 03:02:15,120 --> 03:02:18,400 Speaker 2: giving like Israel the actual like bombs and materials to 3558 03:02:18,400 --> 03:02:22,000 Speaker 2: to like do the demolition side of this project. And 3559 03:02:22,040 --> 03:02:26,040 Speaker 2: now Trump continues to discuss relocating Palestinians to Egypt and Jordan, 3560 03:02:26,320 --> 03:02:29,840 Speaker 2: while promising to turn Gaza into quote unquote the riviera 3561 03:02:30,000 --> 03:02:33,520 Speaker 2: of the Middle East. Level it out create an economic 3562 03:02:33,640 --> 03:02:34,920 Speaker 2: development unquote. 3563 03:02:35,080 --> 03:02:37,320 Speaker 4: He has also said that he's gonna again said he's 3564 03:02:37,320 --> 03:02:40,080 Speaker 4: going to withdraw US troops from Syria, which would leave 3565 03:02:40,280 --> 03:02:43,280 Speaker 4: two thousand people in saintcom to deploy to Gaza. 3566 03:02:43,320 --> 03:02:44,720 Speaker 3: I guess if that's what they want to do. 3567 03:02:45,400 --> 03:02:47,440 Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean I feel like there's no possible way 3568 03:02:47,520 --> 03:02:49,520 Speaker 10: this can go quote unquote, well this is going to 3569 03:02:49,560 --> 03:02:53,240 Speaker 10: be a fucking catastrophe. The basic plan here is to 3570 03:02:53,240 --> 03:02:55,600 Speaker 10: do genocide. And then well mean this is this is 3571 03:02:55,640 --> 03:02:58,039 Speaker 10: part of a genocidal operation. Yeah, it's like this is 3572 03:02:58,040 --> 03:03:00,920 Speaker 10: like what we're doing a second law or your genui side. 3573 03:03:00,959 --> 03:03:02,160 Speaker 10: This is like the finishing touch. 3574 03:03:02,440 --> 03:03:02,680 Speaker 14: Yeah. 3575 03:03:02,720 --> 03:03:05,199 Speaker 10: But you know, like on a sort of practical level, 3576 03:03:05,200 --> 03:03:09,480 Speaker 10: it's like, Okay, the US couldn't hold Afghanistan, right, like 3577 03:03:09,600 --> 03:03:11,480 Speaker 10: and like obviously like this is this isn't like a 3578 03:03:11,560 --> 03:03:13,879 Speaker 10: quote unquote easier occupation. But it's like, this is gonna 3579 03:03:13,879 --> 03:03:17,800 Speaker 10: be a fucking shit, like a nightmare, like and I 3580 03:03:17,800 --> 03:03:19,840 Speaker 10: don't know. I mean, my assumption is that this is 3581 03:03:19,840 --> 03:03:22,000 Speaker 10: going to be just like if if he actually, like 3582 03:03:22,560 --> 03:03:24,280 Speaker 10: you know, does a deployment of US troops, this is 3583 03:03:24,320 --> 03:03:26,360 Speaker 10: going to be hideously unpopular. People are going to be 3584 03:03:26,360 --> 03:03:29,440 Speaker 10: coming back in body bags and it's gonna fucking I 3585 03:03:29,480 --> 03:03:32,199 Speaker 10: don't know, it's going to be a nightmare for everyone involved. 3586 03:03:32,760 --> 03:03:36,840 Speaker 10: And yeah, it's a absolutely terrible idea. 3587 03:03:36,920 --> 03:03:38,640 Speaker 2: I'm more scared that they're going to get away with it. 3588 03:03:38,680 --> 03:03:41,600 Speaker 2: I think it's I'm more scared that things will go 3589 03:03:41,720 --> 03:03:44,560 Speaker 2: find for them and this just becomes like an actually 3590 03:03:44,560 --> 03:03:46,520 Speaker 2: stable US territory in the Middle East. 3591 03:03:46,879 --> 03:03:50,440 Speaker 4: There will be significant pushbacks not the word right like 3592 03:03:51,400 --> 03:03:54,840 Speaker 4: that there will be gerrilla warfare, right Like. It's very 3593 03:03:54,840 --> 03:03:57,440 Speaker 4: hard to take and hold significantly large urban areas, as 3594 03:03:57,440 --> 03:03:59,800 Speaker 4: the US has found out for twenty years. Whether or 3595 03:03:59,840 --> 03:04:02,120 Speaker 4: not people would accept that, I think I think they might, 3596 03:04:02,600 --> 03:04:06,039 Speaker 4: Like I think Trump kind of needs an enemy, you know, 3597 03:04:06,080 --> 03:04:09,080 Speaker 4: and a war and and like a quote unquote, you know, 3598 03:04:09,120 --> 03:04:11,160 Speaker 4: he can he can paint almost anything as a win. 3599 03:04:11,280 --> 03:04:14,280 Speaker 4: And I think people might be more willing than we'd 3600 03:04:14,360 --> 03:04:16,760 Speaker 4: like to think to accept people coming home in body bags. 3601 03:04:16,760 --> 03:04:19,760 Speaker 1: From that, I'm not really sure. I think we're actually 3602 03:04:19,800 --> 03:04:22,520 Speaker 1: going to see the kind of troop deployment that people 3603 03:04:22,800 --> 03:04:25,440 Speaker 1: think based on what Trump has said as opposed to 3604 03:04:26,520 --> 03:04:30,240 Speaker 1: expanded support for what the Israelis have already been doing, 3605 03:04:31,400 --> 03:04:35,520 Speaker 1: which has like done a significant job to depopulate the 3606 03:04:35,560 --> 03:04:39,280 Speaker 1: area as it stands. Like, Yeah, I think we have 3607 03:04:39,360 --> 03:04:42,560 Speaker 1: to be hesitant to draw too strong a line between 3608 03:04:42,600 --> 03:04:45,119 Speaker 1: the rhetoric and what Trump is actually going to do. 3609 03:04:45,760 --> 03:04:48,520 Speaker 1: Which doesn't mean I don't think that it's not very 3610 03:04:48,640 --> 03:04:51,520 Speaker 1: likely that you're going to continue to see massy population 3611 03:04:51,640 --> 03:04:54,360 Speaker 1: in Gaza. I think it's just that, like, I don't 3612 03:04:54,360 --> 03:04:57,640 Speaker 1: know that. I think the only way that happens is 3613 03:04:58,000 --> 03:05:01,120 Speaker 1: something that looks like most of the occupations of the 3614 03:05:01,160 --> 03:05:04,080 Speaker 1: last century have looked like from a US point of view. 3615 03:05:04,320 --> 03:05:07,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, and the new model is this Syria model, right, 3616 03:05:07,080 --> 03:05:10,039 Speaker 4: make a relatively small footprint, and then in the local 3617 03:05:10,120 --> 03:05:13,039 Speaker 4: partner force at the IDF pulling security for US contracts 3618 03:05:13,040 --> 03:05:14,640 Speaker 4: and in US money like. 3619 03:05:14,680 --> 03:05:18,000 Speaker 1: That, right, the IDF and a lot of third party 3620 03:05:18,200 --> 03:05:23,080 Speaker 1: corporate PMCs. Yeah, PMCs, you know, like that's what that 3621 03:05:23,240 --> 03:05:25,840 Speaker 1: we've we've got guys champing at the bit to do that. 3622 03:05:26,080 --> 03:05:28,760 Speaker 1: And yeah, like I that looks a lot likelier to 3623 03:05:28,800 --> 03:05:32,600 Speaker 1: me than the tenth Mountain Division, you know, occupying large 3624 03:05:32,680 --> 03:05:33,560 Speaker 1: chunks of Gaza. 3625 03:05:33,760 --> 03:05:36,640 Speaker 3: Agreed. Yeah, Eric Prince is ready to ready to get 3626 03:05:37,120 --> 03:05:38,080 Speaker 3: sadly all. 3627 03:05:38,040 --> 03:05:41,760 Speaker 2: Right, let's uh, let's transition to our new segment titled 3628 03:05:41,920 --> 03:05:45,280 Speaker 2: Stinky Musk, which I came up with last night. Delirious 3629 03:05:45,320 --> 03:05:47,240 Speaker 2: and yes it's bad. No, I'm not going to fix it. 3630 03:05:47,720 --> 03:05:50,760 Speaker 2: South African Gang does a hostile takeover of the United States. 3631 03:05:51,120 --> 03:05:52,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, you're hitting. 3632 03:05:52,160 --> 03:05:53,839 Speaker 8: You're hitting today, Garrison. 3633 03:05:54,080 --> 03:05:56,280 Speaker 2: Elon Musk at a gig of overly online gen z 3634 03:05:56,400 --> 03:05:59,680 Speaker 2: interns are doing an oligarchic cyber coup of the federal 3635 03:05:59,720 --> 03:06:03,160 Speaker 2: government meant starting with the Office of Management and Budget 3636 03:06:03,160 --> 03:06:06,800 Speaker 2: and moving on to USAID, A General Services Administration, the Treasury, 3637 03:06:06,959 --> 03:06:11,200 Speaker 2: and as of Recording Noah, as well as many other agencies, 3638 03:06:11,320 --> 03:06:16,080 Speaker 2: smaller agencies, bigger agencies that they are infiltrating both physically 3639 03:06:16,120 --> 03:06:19,440 Speaker 2: and digitally. Yeah, employees of these agencies have been locked 3640 03:06:19,440 --> 03:06:22,400 Speaker 2: out both physically and digitally as the DOGE team ransacks 3641 03:06:22,480 --> 03:06:27,039 Speaker 2: various departments and accesses sensitive data with no oversight, and 3642 03:06:27,120 --> 03:06:30,640 Speaker 2: that's like government data about you possibly in the hands 3643 03:06:30,680 --> 03:06:35,480 Speaker 2: of a literal Nick Fuentes, pilled Groyper. Intern security officials 3644 03:06:35,520 --> 03:06:38,280 Speaker 2: who tried to resist Musk's seizure of classified materials have 3645 03:06:38,320 --> 03:06:41,440 Speaker 2: been fired, and DOGE personnel threatened to call the US 3646 03:06:41,560 --> 03:06:45,080 Speaker 2: Marshals to be let into buildings. I have some more 3647 03:06:45,080 --> 03:06:46,879 Speaker 2: info on this, as we will as we will go on, 3648 03:06:47,200 --> 03:06:49,840 Speaker 2: but I guess this is this is an okay time 3649 03:06:49,959 --> 03:06:50,760 Speaker 2: just to discuss. 3650 03:06:51,280 --> 03:06:53,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the response to this is one of 3651 03:06:53,520 --> 03:06:56,560 Speaker 1: the more hopeful things going on right now. And kind 3652 03:06:56,560 --> 03:06:59,640 Speaker 1: of what led me to think that is looking at 3653 03:06:59,680 --> 03:07:03,440 Speaker 1: twenty looking at the fallout from twenty twenty and what 3654 03:07:03,600 --> 03:07:08,160 Speaker 1: worked and what didn't, largely what didn't work, and thinking like, okay, well, 3655 03:07:08,280 --> 03:07:11,520 Speaker 1: if we're going to actually get any kind of functional 3656 03:07:11,560 --> 03:07:14,680 Speaker 1: resistance to what's happening, what does that look like. And 3657 03:07:15,400 --> 03:07:18,640 Speaker 1: it doesn't look like the same cruise of people doing 3658 03:07:18,680 --> 03:07:21,800 Speaker 1: the same thing that they did four or five years ago, 3659 03:07:21,959 --> 03:07:24,120 Speaker 1: Which is why I've got some hope in the fact 3660 03:07:24,160 --> 03:07:26,240 Speaker 1: that you've got a different crowd of people who are 3661 03:07:26,360 --> 03:07:29,440 Speaker 1: radicalizing and taking to the streets, and you know, we 3662 03:07:29,680 --> 03:07:33,080 Speaker 1: have central employees, federal employees, right, and you've got a 3663 03:07:33,080 --> 03:07:36,279 Speaker 1: lot of like, yeah, most of them are still current, 3664 03:07:36,560 --> 03:07:38,680 Speaker 1: but you know, it's a mix of former and current 3665 03:07:38,760 --> 03:07:40,800 Speaker 1: federal employees. And these are these are the people who 3666 03:07:40,879 --> 03:07:42,720 Speaker 1: do a lot of the nuts and bolts stuff at 3667 03:07:42,720 --> 03:07:46,680 Speaker 1: the Office of Personnel Management, Office of Management Budget like. 3668 03:07:46,720 --> 03:07:50,560 Speaker 1: These are the people who like make keep things functioning 3669 03:07:50,680 --> 03:07:53,320 Speaker 1: at like a ground level, and a lot of them 3670 03:07:53,360 --> 03:07:55,160 Speaker 1: are are pissed off in a way that I don't 3671 03:07:55,160 --> 03:07:58,480 Speaker 1: think we have really seen before. And I think there's 3672 03:07:58,480 --> 03:08:01,959 Speaker 1: a potential And who's to say, Like, right now, we 3673 03:08:02,080 --> 03:08:05,000 Speaker 1: just had a big protest in front of Treasury about 3674 03:08:05,040 --> 03:08:07,840 Speaker 1: a full city block or so of people, many if 3675 03:08:07,879 --> 03:08:11,800 Speaker 1: not the vast majority of whom we're federal employees, rallying 3676 03:08:11,800 --> 03:08:15,879 Speaker 1: alongside a lot of Democratic members of Congress. And you know, 3677 03:08:15,920 --> 03:08:19,760 Speaker 1: that's that doesn't accomplish anything on its own, but it's 3678 03:08:19,800 --> 03:08:23,240 Speaker 1: a potential start to accomplishing something. You know, if you 3679 03:08:23,320 --> 03:08:26,959 Speaker 1: get those people out in the street, it provides, among 3680 03:08:27,000 --> 03:08:31,000 Speaker 1: other things, a lot of cover for everyone else. And 3681 03:08:31,080 --> 03:08:34,920 Speaker 1: it also is the start of you know, what you 3682 03:08:35,040 --> 03:08:38,040 Speaker 1: might call a reverse January sixth. You know, if January 3683 03:08:38,080 --> 03:08:41,320 Speaker 1: six was a bunch of random people taking and occupying 3684 03:08:41,360 --> 03:08:44,160 Speaker 1: government buildings without any knowledge of like what they are 3685 03:08:45,160 --> 03:08:47,480 Speaker 1: or how things actually function inside of them. The kind 3686 03:08:47,520 --> 03:08:49,120 Speaker 1: of thing that we might be looking at in the 3687 03:08:49,160 --> 03:08:51,600 Speaker 1: near future is the opposite of that, where a bunch 3688 03:08:51,640 --> 03:08:54,959 Speaker 1: of people who absolutely do know how those organizations and 3689 03:08:55,000 --> 03:08:57,359 Speaker 1: buildings function trying to take. 3690 03:08:57,160 --> 03:08:58,039 Speaker 3: And occupy them. 3691 03:08:58,040 --> 03:08:59,800 Speaker 1: And that's the feeling I got because I talked to 3692 03:08:59,800 --> 03:09:04,119 Speaker 1: some folks who are at the Treasury protest. One person 3693 03:09:04,120 --> 03:09:08,000 Speaker 1: that I talked to most extensively as a federal contractor 3694 03:09:08,560 --> 03:09:11,520 Speaker 1: who was present in twenty seventeen at the travel ban 3695 03:09:11,640 --> 03:09:15,560 Speaker 1: protests if you remember those, which is back when Trump 3696 03:09:15,560 --> 03:09:17,640 Speaker 1: announced his first Muslim bound and a bunch of people 3697 03:09:17,720 --> 03:09:20,600 Speaker 1: started occupying like airports and stuff like I was at 3698 03:09:20,680 --> 03:09:23,960 Speaker 1: the LAX for that. This person was at some of 3699 03:09:24,000 --> 03:09:25,800 Speaker 1: those protests and it was out in front of Treasury, 3700 03:09:26,160 --> 03:09:27,760 Speaker 1: and the quote that I've got from them there was 3701 03:09:27,800 --> 03:09:31,600 Speaker 1: I was expecting it it being this protest, the Treasury protest, 3702 03:09:31,680 --> 03:09:33,480 Speaker 1: to feel like the travel ban protests. 3703 03:09:33,520 --> 03:09:34,160 Speaker 10: It didn't. 3704 03:09:34,440 --> 03:09:37,040 Speaker 1: It was a lot angrier than the travel ban protests. 3705 03:09:37,080 --> 03:09:39,640 Speaker 1: The travel ban protests were kind of an in defense 3706 03:09:39,680 --> 03:09:42,880 Speaker 1: of another person sort of anger, and this was narrowly 3707 03:09:42,920 --> 03:09:46,200 Speaker 1: focused anger at a very specific group of people. There 3708 03:09:46,200 --> 03:09:48,240 Speaker 1: were a lot of people yelling and screaming outside of 3709 03:09:48,240 --> 03:09:51,680 Speaker 1: their congressman's offices and the like, and like, there hasn't 3710 03:09:51,680 --> 03:09:54,720 Speaker 1: been that much disruption compared to what we're going to see, right, 3711 03:09:55,200 --> 03:09:58,480 Speaker 1: Social Security payments haven't stopped going out in moss. So 3712 03:09:58,520 --> 03:10:00,920 Speaker 1: if we're seeing something like this at this early stage, 3713 03:10:01,480 --> 03:10:03,560 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of potential there. And the 3714 03:10:03,560 --> 03:10:06,720 Speaker 1: thing this person brought up repeatedly is like, when we 3715 03:10:06,760 --> 03:10:10,360 Speaker 1: start seeing congressmen kicking indoors is when things are going 3716 03:10:10,360 --> 03:10:12,920 Speaker 1: to get interesting. If that happens, Like, that's kind of 3717 03:10:12,959 --> 03:10:16,480 Speaker 1: the stage at which there's a lot of potential for 3718 03:10:16,560 --> 03:10:20,640 Speaker 1: this to turn into something that could actually cause change, 3719 03:10:20,800 --> 03:10:24,119 Speaker 1: Like if you actually start getting government employees who are 3720 03:10:24,200 --> 03:10:26,760 Speaker 1: willing to do more than stand outside of their offices, 3721 03:10:27,480 --> 03:10:30,600 Speaker 1: like who are willing to take direct action to occupy 3722 03:10:30,720 --> 03:10:33,480 Speaker 1: those buildings or stop other people from and you've seen 3723 03:10:33,480 --> 03:10:35,760 Speaker 1: little bits of that, right. One of the things we 3724 03:10:35,800 --> 03:10:39,000 Speaker 1: did see is as these doge kids came along, federal 3725 03:10:39,040 --> 03:10:42,360 Speaker 1: employees refusing them entry, keeping doors locked. Now that was 3726 03:10:42,400 --> 03:10:45,600 Speaker 1: not illegal because these were literally, as it's been described 3727 03:10:45,600 --> 03:10:48,480 Speaker 1: in me by multiple people, just kids showing up demanding 3728 03:10:48,640 --> 03:10:50,879 Speaker 1: entry without any kind of a badge or evidence of 3729 03:10:50,920 --> 03:10:54,360 Speaker 1: who they are. Right when you get people who are 3730 03:10:54,440 --> 03:10:58,000 Speaker 1: willing to escalate from that and refuse entry, that's when 3731 03:10:58,000 --> 03:11:02,119 Speaker 1: we might actually see something start to seriously shift here. 3732 03:11:02,480 --> 03:11:04,640 Speaker 2: I mean, based on how much of what Musk is 3733 03:11:04,640 --> 03:11:07,240 Speaker 2: doing is just like bypassing Congress and doing like like 3734 03:11:07,280 --> 03:11:09,840 Speaker 2: a very kind of like typical like like Ola Garkic 3735 03:11:09,920 --> 03:11:12,039 Speaker 2: co coup, Like he's doing all those steps. And if 3736 03:11:12,040 --> 03:11:13,720 Speaker 2: you look at like what happened in South Korea a 3737 03:11:13,720 --> 03:11:15,960 Speaker 2: few months ago, we are not at the point where 3738 03:11:15,959 --> 03:11:18,920 Speaker 2: congressmen are literally like like you know, climbing over like 3739 03:11:19,000 --> 03:11:20,560 Speaker 2: fences barricading doors. 3740 03:11:20,920 --> 03:11:24,000 Speaker 1: We're not in South Korea territory yet, but yeah, but. 3741 03:11:23,959 --> 03:11:26,200 Speaker 10: Like their lawmakers like we're willing to do that. 3742 03:11:26,360 --> 03:11:28,680 Speaker 2: And and there is like I think waiting from people 3743 03:11:28,760 --> 03:11:31,560 Speaker 2: to like wait and see if our lawmakers are going 3744 03:11:31,600 --> 03:11:33,279 Speaker 2: to be willing to do the same to like protect 3745 03:11:33,280 --> 03:11:36,920 Speaker 2: the actual like functional aspects of our government, and like 3746 03:11:37,360 --> 03:11:39,360 Speaker 2: things are already happening, like we we are in some 3747 03:11:39,400 --> 03:11:42,680 Speaker 2: ways kind of already at this point. The USAYED website 3748 03:11:42,720 --> 03:11:45,560 Speaker 2: is now like completely removed, leaving only a note that 3749 03:11:45,600 --> 03:11:47,960 Speaker 2: claims that all personnel have been put on administrative leave, 3750 03:11:48,120 --> 03:11:53,320 Speaker 2: including overseas personnel. But this essentially leaves a whole agency 3751 03:11:53,360 --> 03:11:56,320 Speaker 2: shut down, but all done with like without an Act 3752 03:11:56,320 --> 03:11:59,800 Speaker 2: of Congress or even like an overstepping executive order from Trump. 3753 03:12:00,320 --> 03:12:03,000 Speaker 2: It was just it was just the unelected Elon Musk 3754 03:12:03,160 --> 03:12:05,600 Speaker 2: who decided to and carried out the closure of a 3755 03:12:05,640 --> 03:12:08,600 Speaker 2: government agency, which like should be like like should actually 3756 03:12:08,680 --> 03:12:10,560 Speaker 2: be like a criminal like there is like statutes that 3757 03:12:10,600 --> 03:12:13,160 Speaker 2: aren't designed to stop this from happening, just no one's 3758 03:12:13,240 --> 03:12:15,720 Speaker 2: enforcing them because they control almost every aspect of government. 3759 03:12:16,160 --> 03:12:18,920 Speaker 2: Musk has also closed the IRS direct file tax system, 3760 03:12:19,080 --> 03:12:23,000 Speaker 2: which has now forced taxpayers to use third party paid services. 3761 03:12:23,040 --> 03:12:25,440 Speaker 10: It's like he's doing this like one by one. I 3762 03:12:25,840 --> 03:12:28,000 Speaker 10: think the weakness that they have right now is that 3763 03:12:28,520 --> 03:12:31,080 Speaker 10: because you're causing so much chaos, because they're you're gonna 3764 03:12:31,080 --> 03:12:33,959 Speaker 10: talk about the FBI pers they're trying to do like 3765 03:12:34,480 --> 03:12:36,440 Speaker 10: you know, the thing that they're relying on is everyone 3766 03:12:36,520 --> 03:12:38,880 Speaker 10: is just going to let them in and just let 3767 03:12:38,959 --> 03:12:41,080 Speaker 10: them get walked over. But it's like, Okay, the thing 3768 03:12:41,120 --> 03:12:43,920 Speaker 10: about acting this muscleside the law is what guys with 3769 03:12:44,040 --> 03:12:46,640 Speaker 10: guns do you have who you can use to enforce this? Yeah, 3770 03:12:46,879 --> 03:12:49,280 Speaker 10: that's the thing where it's it's legitimately like, if there's 3771 03:12:49,320 --> 03:12:52,560 Speaker 10: serious resistance to them, they might start to crumple. Because 3772 03:12:53,400 --> 03:12:56,920 Speaker 10: the reason you work inside of the legal order or 3773 03:12:56,959 --> 03:12:59,840 Speaker 10: you have your own paramilitaries is so that you can 3774 03:12:59,879 --> 03:13:01,920 Speaker 10: have have like the guy with the gun to make 3775 03:13:01,959 --> 03:13:04,520 Speaker 10: you open the door. Yeah, And the more people who 3776 03:13:04,520 --> 03:13:06,720 Speaker 10: are willing to just be like no, fuck you, like 3777 03:13:06,760 --> 03:13:09,440 Speaker 10: and like force them to actually like find guys with 3778 03:13:09,480 --> 03:13:10,480 Speaker 10: guns who are willing to do. 3779 03:13:10,480 --> 03:13:13,000 Speaker 1: This, the odds are lower that you get a positive 3780 03:13:13,000 --> 03:13:18,480 Speaker 1: shift because people engage directly and aggressively with the cops. 3781 03:13:18,560 --> 03:13:21,520 Speaker 1: Then you have when some sort of like mid level 3782 03:13:21,560 --> 03:13:24,840 Speaker 1: military functionary is asked to drive a tank over a 3783 03:13:24,879 --> 03:13:28,640 Speaker 1: school teacher. Right Like, Historically, historically, if you look at 3784 03:13:28,680 --> 03:13:33,199 Speaker 1: when regimes fall, that happens more often than the waving 3785 03:13:33,200 --> 03:13:36,520 Speaker 1: a flag on top of like a pile of corpses. Yeah, right, 3786 03:13:36,600 --> 03:13:40,160 Speaker 1: Like demands are ordered illegal illegal orders are given to 3787 03:13:40,320 --> 03:13:42,240 Speaker 1: people with guns and they're like, no, I'm not going 3788 03:13:42,280 --> 03:13:44,760 Speaker 1: to shoot at a bunch of teachers today. That's not 3789 03:13:44,840 --> 03:13:47,199 Speaker 1: the only way this kind of thing happens, but at least, 3790 03:13:47,240 --> 03:13:50,800 Speaker 1: like for my money, that's the likeliest positive outcome, right. 3791 03:13:50,760 --> 03:13:52,560 Speaker 10: Yeah, and if you look at the last world historical 3792 03:13:52,560 --> 03:13:56,080 Speaker 10: empire run by it incredibly unpopular genetocracy, it was the Soviets, 3793 03:13:56,120 --> 03:13:57,720 Speaker 10: and look at how they fell apart. 3794 03:13:58,080 --> 03:13:59,720 Speaker 1: That's that's more or less what happened. 3795 03:13:59,760 --> 03:14:03,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, And like it's interesting that if we use 3796 03:14:03,400 --> 03:14:05,600 Speaker 4: a Bavarian definition of the state like that has the 3797 03:14:05,640 --> 03:14:08,279 Speaker 4: monopoly on the legitimate use of violence, right, that they've 3798 03:14:08,320 --> 03:14:12,600 Speaker 4: dismantled their apparatus for state violence as well. And this 3799 03:14:12,640 --> 03:14:15,080 Speaker 4: could just be like the blunt instrument of apparently offering 3800 03:14:15,120 --> 03:14:18,840 Speaker 4: every federal employee. I know, I've heard that they've tried 3801 03:14:18,879 --> 03:14:22,680 Speaker 4: to unretire Worldland firefighters who accepted their offer of retirement. 3802 03:14:23,879 --> 03:14:28,480 Speaker 4: Is extremely funny, but like it's it's very Yeah, if 3803 03:14:28,480 --> 03:14:30,160 Speaker 4: you're going to work, you're going to retire a bunch 3804 03:14:30,200 --> 03:14:33,320 Speaker 4: of FBI agents or fire them because, like Mia said, 3805 03:14:33,360 --> 03:14:35,360 Speaker 4: they are going to need hitters. They're going to need 3806 03:14:35,400 --> 03:14:39,440 Speaker 4: to use coercive force at some point, possibly very soon, Yeah, 3807 03:14:39,480 --> 03:14:40,760 Speaker 4: to get what they want to do done. 3808 03:14:41,040 --> 03:14:43,120 Speaker 1: And I think when it comes to that, the question 3809 03:14:43,240 --> 03:14:46,840 Speaker 1: is like which hitters. Yeah, because the the FBI and 3810 03:14:46,920 --> 03:14:49,959 Speaker 1: the CIA I mean are getting are getting gutted at 3811 03:14:49,959 --> 03:14:53,240 Speaker 1: the moment right now, Like so you're looking at like 3812 03:14:54,080 --> 03:14:59,160 Speaker 1: the NSA, you're looking at local police, Federal Protective Services, 3813 03:15:00,000 --> 03:15:03,480 Speaker 1: Apartment of Homeland Security, you know, and the marshals. Right, 3814 03:15:03,600 --> 03:15:06,560 Speaker 1: like these are kind of like the shooters Trump has 3815 03:15:06,560 --> 03:15:09,520 Speaker 1: to play with, and the military will remain an open 3816 03:15:09,600 --> 03:15:11,760 Speaker 1: question until the critical moment, right. 3817 03:15:11,879 --> 03:15:15,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, FPS is infinitely expandable and it's mostly 3818 03:15:15,400 --> 03:15:17,720 Speaker 4: contract threat orbit and aspected about it before. But like 3819 03:15:17,760 --> 03:15:20,880 Speaker 4: that's the one that has a lot of potential to grow. 3820 03:15:20,920 --> 03:15:24,959 Speaker 4: And I think within local especially sheriff's departments, you got 3821 03:15:24,959 --> 03:15:26,439 Speaker 4: some people who weren't bat annihilated. 3822 03:15:26,520 --> 03:15:28,960 Speaker 1: Some of those Oh no, no, no, absolutely not. And 3823 03:15:29,440 --> 03:15:33,320 Speaker 1: I do think that, like sheriff's departments are kind of 3824 03:15:33,480 --> 03:15:36,880 Speaker 1: what haunt me the most. But that's also it's not 3825 03:15:36,920 --> 03:15:40,480 Speaker 1: purely a matter of like which agencies and organizations are 3826 03:15:40,680 --> 03:15:42,879 Speaker 1: going to back Trump in this, It's also a matter 3827 03:15:42,959 --> 03:15:48,120 Speaker 1: of like geographic location and DC. In DC, at least 3828 03:15:48,680 --> 03:15:51,480 Speaker 1: he can count on a lot less of those guys 3829 03:15:51,640 --> 03:15:54,320 Speaker 1: because like the Capitol Police aren't thrilled right now. 3830 03:15:54,400 --> 03:15:57,000 Speaker 2: You know, essentially what Elon is doing right now is 3831 03:15:57,040 --> 03:15:59,640 Speaker 2: exactly what he did to Twitter, except to the entire 3832 03:16:00,160 --> 03:16:03,560 Speaker 2: States of America, and like by the end of this process. 3833 03:16:03,680 --> 03:16:06,360 Speaker 2: It still might function on some level, right, Like Twitter 3834 03:16:06,480 --> 03:16:10,119 Speaker 2: still kind of functions, but it's just worse in every way. 3835 03:16:10,680 --> 03:16:14,080 Speaker 2: It's worse. It doesn't have the quote unquote good features 3836 03:16:14,080 --> 03:16:17,200 Speaker 2: it used to. It's it's buggy, it's full of Nazis. 3837 03:16:17,280 --> 03:16:20,840 Speaker 2: It's just it's it sucks more Like the previous version 3838 03:16:20,959 --> 03:16:24,080 Speaker 2: was was already bad and harmful, but the new one 3839 03:16:24,120 --> 03:16:26,039 Speaker 2: is just worse and without the aspects that made it 3840 03:16:26,040 --> 03:16:28,760 Speaker 2: semi worthwhile. And like, I'm going to do an episode 3841 03:16:28,760 --> 03:16:30,960 Speaker 2: like next week, like it kind of about about this, 3842 03:16:31,000 --> 03:16:35,320 Speaker 2: like specifically, and how musk is Twitter afying the entire 3843 03:16:35,360 --> 03:16:38,439 Speaker 2: government using like all of the same tactics, like refusing 3844 03:16:38,480 --> 03:16:42,760 Speaker 2: to pay leases on buildings, installing beds in agency headquarters 3845 03:16:42,800 --> 03:16:47,199 Speaker 2: to make employees sleep there overnight, having teenagers review code 3846 03:16:47,240 --> 03:16:50,520 Speaker 2: of like long standing employees. It's the exact same process. 3847 03:16:50,920 --> 03:16:53,200 Speaker 2: And if you didn't like what happened to Twitter, that 3848 03:16:53,240 --> 03:16:56,320 Speaker 2: process is now happening to the government itself. 3849 03:16:56,480 --> 03:16:58,600 Speaker 4: I can't wait for the Irs to send me a 3850 03:16:58,640 --> 03:17:00,960 Speaker 4: letter saying my pussy and io like that. 3851 03:17:00,959 --> 03:17:01,480 Speaker 3: That will be. 3852 03:17:02,160 --> 03:17:05,760 Speaker 1: Hey, now you've now you've gotten me back on the 3853 03:17:05,800 --> 03:17:09,640 Speaker 1: Trump trained. You know what I'm piacing out for the day. 3854 03:17:09,959 --> 03:17:10,600 Speaker 3: I'm on board. 3855 03:17:10,720 --> 03:17:10,879 Speaker 6: Now. 3856 03:17:11,760 --> 03:17:13,480 Speaker 2: Before we close this segment and pivot to adds, I 3857 03:17:13,480 --> 03:17:15,520 Speaker 2: do want to shout out the work that Wired is 3858 03:17:15,560 --> 03:17:16,119 Speaker 2: doing right now. 3859 03:17:16,240 --> 03:17:16,400 Speaker 14: Man. 3860 03:17:16,480 --> 03:17:19,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, Wired magazine is doing for some fantastic reporting on this. 3861 03:17:20,480 --> 03:17:24,240 Speaker 2: The DC Attorney is currently promising to go after individuals 3862 03:17:24,240 --> 03:17:27,360 Speaker 2: who post about DOGE employees. They might end up going 3863 03:17:27,400 --> 03:17:31,039 Speaker 2: after some of these Wired journalists who identified this gen 3864 03:17:31,200 --> 03:17:34,760 Speaker 2: Z Doge team that is wreaking havoc throughout the government 3865 03:17:35,240 --> 03:17:38,080 Speaker 2: with no oversight. Wired provided what should be you know, 3866 03:17:38,200 --> 03:17:43,119 Speaker 2: legally required, a necessary identification of public workers who Musk 3867 03:17:43,240 --> 03:17:45,920 Speaker 2: is trying to keep secret. The DC Attorney and like 3868 03:17:45,959 --> 03:17:47,879 Speaker 2: Trump's DOJ, is very mad about that. They might they 3869 03:17:47,959 --> 03:17:51,680 Speaker 2: might end up like going after these people. But fantastic 3870 03:17:51,720 --> 03:17:53,920 Speaker 2: work coming out of Wired right now. If you want 3871 03:17:53,959 --> 03:17:57,120 Speaker 2: to keep up to date on Musk's takeover, I strongly 3872 03:17:57,120 --> 03:17:59,880 Speaker 2: recommend checking out their work. I'll post some of those 3873 03:18:00,160 --> 03:18:03,000 Speaker 2: sources below. Let's go on a quick ad break and 3874 03:18:03,000 --> 03:18:06,680 Speaker 2: then come back to talk about the continuing kind of 3875 03:18:06,720 --> 03:18:09,600 Speaker 2: fake trade wars and immigration sick. 3876 03:18:21,959 --> 03:18:22,800 Speaker 3: All right, we're back. 3877 03:18:22,959 --> 03:18:25,760 Speaker 2: I'm going to pivot towards James and Mia to discuss 3878 03:18:25,840 --> 03:18:28,160 Speaker 2: tariffs and immigration take it away. 3879 03:18:28,680 --> 03:18:32,160 Speaker 10: Yeah, So on Monday, Trump sort of averted the market 3880 03:18:32,200 --> 03:18:36,240 Speaker 10: collapse that he had set off with his declaration that 3881 03:18:37,000 --> 03:18:39,080 Speaker 10: there are going to be twenty five percent tariffs on 3882 03:18:39,120 --> 03:18:42,160 Speaker 10: all goods from Canada and Mexico and also ten percent 3883 03:18:42,200 --> 03:18:45,200 Speaker 10: tariff on China. So let's let's go into like what 3884 03:18:45,280 --> 03:18:49,240 Speaker 10: actually happened. So the tariffs on Mexico and Canada are 3885 03:18:49,280 --> 03:18:53,520 Speaker 10: on hold for a month. However, the ten percent tariff 3886 03:18:53,560 --> 03:18:56,680 Speaker 10: on all Chinese goods did go into effect, and we'll 3887 03:18:56,680 --> 03:18:57,960 Speaker 10: get some more about what that's going to do in 3888 03:18:58,000 --> 03:19:02,959 Speaker 10: a second. But much more important, Trump eliminated the deminimus exception, 3889 03:19:03,080 --> 03:19:06,920 Speaker 10: which allowed like people and companies to ship goods from 3890 03:19:07,000 --> 03:19:09,200 Speaker 10: China that were worth under eight hundred dollars and not 3891 03:19:09,360 --> 03:19:12,600 Speaker 10: have to go through the formal customs process and you know, 3892 03:19:12,680 --> 03:19:14,680 Speaker 10: pay tariffs on it and also have to spend all 3893 03:19:14,680 --> 03:19:18,600 Speaker 10: of that time paperwork and shit. And before we get 3894 03:19:18,640 --> 03:19:20,400 Speaker 10: into the sort of devastating effect this is going to 3895 03:19:20,440 --> 03:19:22,000 Speaker 10: have on businesses, I want to make it clear that 3896 03:19:22,080 --> 03:19:26,279 Speaker 10: like regular people in China use this to send things 3897 03:19:26,280 --> 03:19:29,000 Speaker 10: to people in the US, like that that's a very 3898 03:19:29,000 --> 03:19:33,720 Speaker 10: normal thing. Yeah, that is now really really difficult. 3899 03:19:33,440 --> 03:19:36,160 Speaker 1: And about a third of YouTube ads are supported by 3900 03:19:36,160 --> 03:19:38,960 Speaker 1: people who run companies that make use of this loophole. 3901 03:19:39,879 --> 03:19:42,360 Speaker 10: Yeah, okay, so on the business side, this is actually 3902 03:19:42,360 --> 03:19:44,920 Speaker 10: really interesting because I think it's one of the I mean, 3903 03:19:44,959 --> 03:19:46,560 Speaker 10: not the first one. I think it's going to be 3904 03:19:46,560 --> 03:19:49,800 Speaker 10: a very very early example of Trump completely fucking a 3905 03:19:49,879 --> 03:19:52,560 Speaker 10: base that's been very very supportive of him, because this 3906 03:19:52,680 --> 03:19:56,400 Speaker 10: is going to liquidate huge portions of the drop shippy economy, 3907 03:19:56,480 --> 03:19:58,800 Speaker 10: right like all of all of the stupid YouTube shirts, 3908 03:19:59,160 --> 03:20:02,439 Speaker 10: like all of that stuff is just going to be annihilated. 3909 03:20:02,480 --> 03:20:04,879 Speaker 4: Can you explain drop shipping if people aren't familiar mere 3910 03:20:05,280 --> 03:20:06,600 Speaker 4: just like ten second versions. 3911 03:20:06,680 --> 03:20:07,080 Speaker 6: Yeah. 3912 03:20:07,200 --> 03:20:10,800 Speaker 10: So drop shipping is a thing where you do an 3913 03:20:10,879 --> 03:20:14,119 Speaker 10: order and instead of having like an inventory, normally you'd 3914 03:20:14,160 --> 03:20:16,000 Speaker 10: have a warehouse a had shirts in it. Drop shipping 3915 03:20:16,400 --> 03:20:18,959 Speaker 10: you don't do that. You are now the intermediary and 3916 03:20:19,000 --> 03:20:22,840 Speaker 10: you have these manufacturers like print to consumption basically, and 3917 03:20:22,879 --> 03:20:25,400 Speaker 10: you can do this very cheaply, and then you can 3918 03:20:25,560 --> 03:20:28,160 Speaker 10: run the entire markup. But it works because of how 3919 03:20:28,240 --> 03:20:31,120 Speaker 10: cheap it is to get these like sort of small 3920 03:20:31,160 --> 03:20:34,760 Speaker 10: scale Chinese firms to like make stuff for you. Those 3921 03:20:34,800 --> 03:20:38,600 Speaker 10: people are screwed. Companies like Temu and Shian are either 3922 03:20:38,680 --> 03:20:42,720 Speaker 10: going to have to just completely eat shit or they're 3923 03:20:42,720 --> 03:20:44,200 Speaker 10: going to have to figure out a way to move 3924 03:20:44,240 --> 03:20:47,360 Speaker 10: their entire supply line through countries like Vietnam, which is 3925 03:20:47,360 --> 03:20:49,440 Speaker 10: going to be very difficult. I mean because Temo even 3926 03:20:49,480 --> 03:20:51,120 Speaker 10: getting stuff to the US has been kind of hard 3927 03:20:51,120 --> 03:20:54,120 Speaker 10: for them because of how the logistics network works. Yeah, 3928 03:20:54,879 --> 03:20:57,080 Speaker 10: and so obviously, like I don't think most people who 3929 03:20:57,080 --> 03:20:58,960 Speaker 10: listen to this show are that sad about Schian and 3930 03:20:59,000 --> 03:20:59,959 Speaker 10: Temu eating shit. 3931 03:21:00,080 --> 03:21:03,160 Speaker 1: But no, it is like a mixed bag because a 3932 03:21:03,200 --> 03:21:06,800 Speaker 1: whole lot of the MLM industry is going to take 3933 03:21:07,200 --> 03:21:08,600 Speaker 1: a header as a result of this. 3934 03:21:08,959 --> 03:21:11,920 Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, there's some stuff to like fuck them. But 3935 03:21:12,000 --> 03:21:14,160 Speaker 10: on the other hand, there are a lot of people 3936 03:21:14,280 --> 03:21:16,800 Speaker 10: who are going to eat shit who are not those people. 3937 03:21:16,879 --> 03:21:20,240 Speaker 10: And this is there is a huge, like range of 3938 03:21:20,280 --> 03:21:24,120 Speaker 10: industries that are run by very very small businesses, like 3939 03:21:24,200 --> 03:21:26,480 Speaker 10: it was even just like an individual person who like 3940 03:21:26,560 --> 03:21:28,760 Speaker 10: makes crafts and sells it, and those people are also 3941 03:21:28,800 --> 03:21:32,680 Speaker 10: screwed because they rely on getting the resources in from China. 3942 03:21:32,840 --> 03:21:35,000 Speaker 10: And there's a lot of sort of you know things 3943 03:21:35,040 --> 03:21:38,160 Speaker 10: like like people who build like hand like retro handheld consoles, 3944 03:21:38,280 --> 03:21:41,240 Speaker 10: oh yeah, and like I don't know, like custom ariosoft rifles, 3945 03:21:41,280 --> 03:21:42,800 Speaker 10: I do you talk about, Like there's a whole bunch 3946 03:21:42,840 --> 03:21:45,000 Speaker 10: of industries like that that are these like small scale 3947 03:21:45,040 --> 03:21:50,560 Speaker 10: production things that are just screwed that rely on this stuff. 3948 03:21:50,560 --> 03:21:53,280 Speaker 10: And so the ripples of this specific part of it 3949 03:21:53,360 --> 03:21:55,840 Speaker 10: are going to keep playing out basically no matter what 3950 03:21:55,879 --> 03:21:58,920 Speaker 10: else happens in this trade war. Yeah, it's also worth 3951 03:21:58,959 --> 03:22:03,360 Speaker 10: noting that tariffs on Mexico and Canada aren't gone, They've 3952 03:22:03,400 --> 03:22:06,080 Speaker 10: just been postponed for a month. So there is a 3953 03:22:06,120 --> 03:22:08,320 Speaker 10: real chance that we end up in exactly the same 3954 03:22:08,360 --> 03:22:10,680 Speaker 10: place that we were going into the weekend, where no 3955 03:22:10,680 --> 03:22:12,440 Speaker 10: one knows where these terrifts are going to take effected, 3956 03:22:12,520 --> 03:22:15,560 Speaker 10: basically blow a smoking crater in the world economy, and 3957 03:22:15,720 --> 03:22:18,080 Speaker 10: we get another round of the negotiations that James is 3958 03:22:18,080 --> 03:22:21,360 Speaker 10: going to talk about. It's already setting off a really 3959 03:22:21,400 --> 03:22:23,560 Speaker 10: sort of staggering right wing I mean not even necessarily 3960 03:22:23,640 --> 03:22:26,840 Speaker 10: right wing, just like a nationalist backlash in Canada that's 3961 03:22:26,920 --> 03:22:29,160 Speaker 10: kind of been like tearing up this sort of international 3962 03:22:29,200 --> 03:22:32,600 Speaker 10: right wing alliance and nationalists because suddenly Trump's coming after 3963 03:22:32,680 --> 03:22:34,560 Speaker 10: them and now they're they're really mad about it. 3964 03:22:34,640 --> 03:22:38,279 Speaker 2: Well, and because Trudeau announced that that he would be targeting, 3965 03:22:38,879 --> 03:22:41,760 Speaker 2: you know, like retaliatory tariffs is specifically at red States. 3966 03:22:42,080 --> 03:22:45,600 Speaker 2: We now have people calling him dark woke or dark Trudeau, 3967 03:22:45,760 --> 03:22:47,600 Speaker 2: you know, for very different reasons than they used to 3968 03:22:47,640 --> 03:22:48,720 Speaker 2: call him Trudeau. 3969 03:22:48,840 --> 03:22:55,560 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, all right, all right, shop up high, right, 3970 03:22:55,920 --> 03:22:58,200 Speaker 1: all right, you're going to get canceled if you're not 3971 03:22:58,320 --> 03:23:00,800 Speaker 1: careful that outstanding. 3972 03:23:01,320 --> 03:23:04,800 Speaker 10: Speaking of getting canceled, what hasn't gotten canceled is the 3973 03:23:04,800 --> 03:23:06,720 Speaker 10: ten percent tariff on all Chinese good which is just 3974 03:23:06,720 --> 03:23:09,720 Speaker 10: now in effect. It's just happening. That's bad. It's going 3975 03:23:09,760 --> 03:23:12,119 Speaker 10: to increase inflation. It's also it's you know, it's it's 3976 03:23:12,120 --> 03:23:14,640 Speaker 10: sort of the opening round of this escalation to a 3977 03:23:14,680 --> 03:23:19,320 Speaker 10: trade war. China has retaliated with tariffs that are not 3978 03:23:19,400 --> 03:23:23,279 Speaker 10: a very big deal on US goods and some product 3979 03:23:23,280 --> 03:23:26,800 Speaker 10: control stuff, on expert control stuff on some rare earth 3980 03:23:26,840 --> 03:23:29,680 Speaker 10: minerals actually do with the rare smills, but like minerals 3981 03:23:29,720 --> 03:23:32,360 Speaker 10: you need for production stuff that isn't a big deal 3982 03:23:32,560 --> 03:23:33,680 Speaker 10: yet but could be. 3983 03:23:33,800 --> 03:23:36,080 Speaker 2: I mean, and we were all expecting Chinese tariffs. Having 3984 03:23:36,080 --> 03:23:38,880 Speaker 2: twenty five percent tariffs in Canada was not something I 3985 03:23:38,920 --> 03:23:40,400 Speaker 2: thought was like a looming. 3986 03:23:40,120 --> 03:23:43,199 Speaker 10: Milh Yeah, yeah, I mean I thought they'd do Mexico. 3987 03:23:43,200 --> 03:23:43,760 Speaker 10: I didn't know about. 3988 03:23:43,800 --> 03:23:48,280 Speaker 4: I'm very worried about the offshoring of Chinese labor and 3989 03:23:48,400 --> 03:23:50,760 Speaker 4: the impact that will have in places like Myanma, where 3990 03:23:50,840 --> 03:23:53,200 Speaker 4: China has these special economic zones, and it's something we 3991 03:23:53,280 --> 03:23:53,680 Speaker 4: will cover. 3992 03:23:53,920 --> 03:23:55,439 Speaker 8: We obviously have a lot of soci. 3993 03:23:55,320 --> 03:23:58,199 Speaker 10: Yeah Monday, Yeah, yeah, on Monday, we're recovering this spot. 3994 03:23:58,800 --> 03:24:01,240 Speaker 10: So I think something that's import to understand about these 3995 03:24:01,240 --> 03:24:03,480 Speaker 10: tariffs is that these terrifts are not economic policy. This 3996 03:24:03,600 --> 03:24:05,959 Speaker 10: is the mistake that all of the capitalists who backed 3997 03:24:05,959 --> 03:24:08,920 Speaker 10: Trump made is that they assumed that just like every 3998 03:24:08,920 --> 03:24:11,119 Speaker 10: other president who's made promise us like this, like Obama's 3999 03:24:11,120 --> 03:24:13,840 Speaker 10: promised to renegotiate NAFTA, they all assumed that because of 4000 03:24:14,000 --> 03:24:16,440 Speaker 10: economic policy, they'd be able to just like get Trump 4001 03:24:16,440 --> 03:24:18,040 Speaker 10: to be pro business and then he wouldn't do it. 4002 03:24:18,240 --> 03:24:19,920 Speaker 10: The mis calculation they made is that these are not 4003 03:24:20,160 --> 03:24:24,800 Speaker 10: economic tariffs. These are directly foreign policy, geopolitical tariffs. 4004 03:24:24,840 --> 03:24:24,960 Speaker 3: Right. 4005 03:24:24,959 --> 03:24:28,000 Speaker 10: Their international relations are to the deal bullshit and the 4006 03:24:28,080 --> 03:24:30,640 Speaker 10: goal of it. And he's been deploying this against like 4007 03:24:30,680 --> 03:24:34,760 Speaker 10: I mean, Columbia, Denmark, He's threatening the EU. Now he's 4008 03:24:34,760 --> 03:24:37,280 Speaker 10: going to keep doing this with China. The goal of 4009 03:24:37,320 --> 03:24:41,000 Speaker 10: this is to directly use American consumer power as a 4010 03:24:41,000 --> 03:24:44,080 Speaker 10: weapon of imperialism to make these countries fall into line. Yeah, 4011 03:24:44,200 --> 03:24:46,080 Speaker 10: and now I will pass it the jame to talk 4012 03:24:46,080 --> 03:24:48,480 Speaker 10: about what he was specifically trying to get out of 4013 03:24:48,560 --> 03:24:50,560 Speaker 10: Mexico and Canada in this round. 4014 03:24:50,800 --> 03:24:53,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, so, like we expect about falling into line there. 4015 03:24:53,560 --> 03:24:55,280 Speaker 4: I think it's probably a good place to start. Like 4016 03:24:55,320 --> 03:24:58,199 Speaker 4: this kind of Trump brinksmanship is very typical of his style. Right, 4017 03:24:58,400 --> 03:25:01,320 Speaker 4: Nearly every media outlet, I think, fell for it this 4018 03:25:01,480 --> 03:25:03,400 Speaker 4: time that it did in his first term, like we 4019 03:25:03,480 --> 03:25:05,519 Speaker 4: got this, like this is going to cause the crisis. 4020 03:25:06,600 --> 03:25:10,199 Speaker 4: Trump was very nebulous in his goals for these tariffs, 4021 03:25:10,600 --> 03:25:13,520 Speaker 4: and as almost always like, he talked a lot about 4022 03:25:13,560 --> 03:25:16,960 Speaker 4: like America being treated unfairly. Right, he talked about the border, 4023 03:25:17,000 --> 03:25:20,000 Speaker 4: and he talked specifically about fentanyl. Soon, let's begin by 4024 03:25:20,000 --> 03:25:23,160 Speaker 4: talking about fentanyl. It just to be clear, it is 4025 03:25:23,280 --> 03:25:27,400 Speaker 4: true that some fentanyl comes into the USA from Mexico 4026 03:25:27,560 --> 03:25:29,800 Speaker 4: and to a lesser degree or so from Canada. The 4027 03:25:29,879 --> 03:25:33,920 Speaker 4: vast majority of the fentanyl that enters the USA from Mexico, 4028 03:25:34,200 --> 03:25:37,640 Speaker 4: about eighty percent of the convictions made as a result 4029 03:25:37,640 --> 03:25:42,240 Speaker 4: of that fentanyl entering the USA are made on US citizens, right, 4030 03:25:42,560 --> 03:25:45,200 Speaker 4: And ninety percent of the fentanyl that is seized is 4031 03:25:45,240 --> 03:25:48,760 Speaker 4: seized at ports of entry. So this idea that there 4032 03:25:48,840 --> 03:25:52,480 Speaker 4: are like Mexican nationals backpacking fentanyl through the desert, that exists, 4033 03:25:52,520 --> 03:25:54,720 Speaker 4: but it is not what is bringing the bulk of 4034 03:25:54,760 --> 03:25:56,560 Speaker 4: the fentanyl that is killing the people in this country 4035 03:25:56,560 --> 03:26:00,840 Speaker 4: into this country. There are multiple cases of DBP agent 4036 03:26:01,000 --> 03:26:03,440 Speaker 4: taking bribes to allow the drug into the country. I 4037 03:26:03,440 --> 03:26:05,120 Speaker 4: will link to two of them in the show notes, 4038 03:26:05,160 --> 03:26:07,680 Speaker 4: but know that there are more of them, and given 4039 03:26:07,720 --> 03:26:10,240 Speaker 4: the relatively high bar for cbpagent, anyone in DHS to 4040 03:26:10,240 --> 03:26:12,360 Speaker 4: be investigated, right, we can assume that there's something that 4041 03:26:12,440 --> 03:26:16,760 Speaker 4: happens on at least a semi regular basis. So what 4042 03:26:16,840 --> 03:26:18,680 Speaker 4: did Trump do to stop this fence not coming into 4043 03:26:18,680 --> 03:26:20,240 Speaker 4: this the country? Where did he get He got this 4044 03:26:20,760 --> 03:26:24,160 Speaker 4: promise that Mexico will deploy ten thousand troops to its border. 4045 03:26:24,680 --> 03:26:27,240 Speaker 4: In reality, this isn't much of a concession at all. 4046 03:26:27,520 --> 03:26:29,959 Speaker 4: The Mexican National Guard has been deployed to the border 4047 03:26:30,000 --> 03:26:33,720 Speaker 4: for years. Specifically, it's been deployed at gaps in the 4048 03:26:33,879 --> 03:26:36,720 Speaker 4: US border wall for more than a year, so people 4049 03:26:36,959 --> 03:26:40,039 Speaker 4: will remember our coverage of the open air detention sites 4050 03:26:40,080 --> 03:26:42,560 Speaker 4: in the cumber Andese County San Diego. All of those 4051 03:26:42,600 --> 03:26:45,879 Speaker 4: open air detention sites correspond to gaps in the border 4052 03:26:45,959 --> 03:26:48,240 Speaker 4: wall where migrants would enter, surrender to border patrol, and 4053 03:26:48,240 --> 03:26:51,200 Speaker 4: then be detained in open air. Each of those gaps 4054 03:26:51,240 --> 03:26:54,720 Speaker 4: now has a Mexican National Guard checkpoint in front of it, 4055 03:26:54,920 --> 03:26:58,680 Speaker 4: and they're there in conjunction with IM the National Institute 4056 03:26:58,680 --> 03:27:01,240 Speaker 4: of Migration in English, the INM has camps for the 4057 03:27:01,280 --> 03:27:02,400 Speaker 4: migrants who do come there. 4058 03:27:02,640 --> 03:27:02,800 Speaker 6: Right. 4059 03:27:02,879 --> 03:27:05,160 Speaker 4: This is something that Biden obtained in I think late 4060 03:27:05,240 --> 03:27:07,879 Speaker 4: twenty three, early twenty four, and that's why we aren't 4061 03:27:07,879 --> 03:27:10,120 Speaker 4: seeing open ed attention one of the reasons, the other 4062 03:27:10,120 --> 03:27:12,959 Speaker 4: reason being Biden's a sylum band. We aren't seeing as 4063 03:27:13,000 --> 03:27:16,199 Speaker 4: many people crossing the border right. Mexican border towns also 4064 03:27:16,320 --> 03:27:19,160 Speaker 4: tend to be areas where the Mexican military deploys its 4065 03:27:19,200 --> 03:27:22,080 Speaker 4: troops because often they are places were organized crime occurves 4066 03:27:22,120 --> 03:27:24,040 Speaker 4: due to their proximity to the border and the market 4067 03:27:24,080 --> 03:27:26,200 Speaker 4: for drugs, and the fact that weapons from the US 4068 03:27:26,240 --> 03:27:28,920 Speaker 4: tend to flow into Mexico and that that's where large 4069 03:27:29,000 --> 03:27:31,760 Speaker 4: numbers of weapons for organized crime come from right. For 4070 03:27:32,160 --> 03:27:35,520 Speaker 4: more than a year, I've received press releases from Tijuana 4071 03:27:35,879 --> 03:27:39,640 Speaker 4: constantly talking about new unit arrives, Special Forces arrives, Army arrive, 4072 03:27:39,800 --> 03:27:41,279 Speaker 4: and then they'll have pictures of a parade. 4073 03:27:41,360 --> 03:27:41,920 Speaker 3: Right now. 4074 03:27:41,920 --> 03:27:44,400 Speaker 4: They never tell us when those units are leaving. They 4075 03:27:44,480 --> 03:27:46,240 Speaker 4: just keep telling us they're coming. So it's very hard 4076 03:27:46,240 --> 03:27:48,560 Speaker 4: to get a sense of actually how many troops are there. Sure, 4077 03:27:48,800 --> 03:27:52,119 Speaker 4: but the idea that Mexico is suddenly militarizing its border 4078 03:27:52,400 --> 03:27:53,320 Speaker 4: is kind of fascical. 4079 03:27:53,920 --> 03:27:55,920 Speaker 10: Yeah, and I want to There's been a lot of 4080 03:27:55,920 --> 03:27:58,720 Speaker 10: sort of cheerleading of shine Bomb, sort of like standing 4081 03:27:58,800 --> 03:28:00,800 Speaker 10: up to the US. And I don't think people in 4082 03:28:00,840 --> 03:28:04,320 Speaker 10: the US really understand the securitization on the Mexican border, 4083 03:28:04,400 --> 03:28:06,120 Speaker 10: and so something that I'm realizing that I don't think 4084 03:28:06,600 --> 03:28:08,440 Speaker 10: I just assume people knew about this, but I don't 4085 03:28:08,440 --> 03:28:10,640 Speaker 10: think everyone made into the western press much. 4086 03:28:10,840 --> 03:28:11,160 Speaker 6: Is that. 4087 03:28:11,200 --> 03:28:14,240 Speaker 10: So Like a few months ago in October, the Mexican 4088 03:28:14,360 --> 03:28:17,560 Speaker 10: Army just like opened fire on a convoy of like 4089 03:28:17,600 --> 03:28:20,320 Speaker 10: on a convoy of immigrants and this was on the 4090 03:28:20,320 --> 03:28:23,440 Speaker 10: border of Guatemala and just like killed six of them, 4091 03:28:23,480 --> 03:28:26,360 Speaker 10: shot twelve other people. So like and like there are 4092 03:28:26,400 --> 03:28:30,280 Speaker 10: massacres like that, like not infrequently right, like this is 4093 03:28:30,360 --> 03:28:34,080 Speaker 10: not a this is not a Mexico is pro immigrant 4094 03:28:34,280 --> 03:28:36,640 Speaker 10: like the US is anti immigrant thing. 4095 03:28:36,879 --> 03:28:36,959 Speaker 12: Like. 4096 03:28:37,080 --> 03:28:39,400 Speaker 10: Part of the part of the reason why Trump can, like, 4097 03:28:39,879 --> 03:28:42,200 Speaker 10: you know, sort of declare victory without getting any concessions 4098 03:28:42,280 --> 03:28:45,920 Speaker 10: or whatever is because of how murderous the Mexican armies, 4099 03:28:46,120 --> 03:28:47,600 Speaker 10: like border policy is already. 4100 03:28:48,520 --> 03:28:50,879 Speaker 4: Yeah, and then the Mexican leaders have succesfully been able 4101 03:28:50,879 --> 03:28:54,280 Speaker 4: to paint themselves as leftists, exclusively being two inches to 4102 03:28:54,320 --> 03:28:57,440 Speaker 4: the left of a further and further right regime in Washington, DC. 4103 03:28:57,920 --> 03:28:59,879 Speaker 4: People can listen to the last episode of My Daddy 4104 03:28:59,879 --> 03:29:02,200 Speaker 4: and Gap series for an idea of how Mexico is 4105 03:29:02,200 --> 03:29:05,560 Speaker 4: constantly deporting migrants to its own certain states. I want 4106 03:29:05,560 --> 03:29:08,680 Speaker 4: to talk a little bit about the Canadian concessions very briefly. Again, 4107 03:29:09,000 --> 03:29:13,080 Speaker 4: ten thousand agents and a border spending that really doesn't 4108 03:29:13,160 --> 03:29:15,240 Speaker 4: change much in what in terms of what was already 4109 03:29:15,240 --> 03:29:16,760 Speaker 4: becoming a more militarized border. 4110 03:29:17,240 --> 03:29:18,080 Speaker 3: There has actually been. 4111 03:29:18,000 --> 03:29:20,840 Speaker 4: A significant flow of migrants from the US to Canada 4112 03:29:21,000 --> 03:29:24,320 Speaker 4: in the last couple of years, specifically a Francophone African 4113 03:29:24,320 --> 03:29:26,640 Speaker 4: people who would take that route. I'm aware of several 4114 03:29:26,720 --> 03:29:29,920 Speaker 4: TikTok influencers as one guy or following Chad who or 4115 03:29:29,959 --> 03:29:32,200 Speaker 4: he's in Canada now, but he's from Chad and he 4116 03:29:32,280 --> 03:29:35,840 Speaker 4: makes these videos explaining to Challian people how to go 4117 03:29:35,879 --> 03:29:37,840 Speaker 4: from Mexico into the US and then move up to 4118 03:29:37,840 --> 03:29:41,160 Speaker 4: Canada obviously where they can speak French, and that makes 4119 03:29:41,200 --> 03:29:42,960 Speaker 4: their lives much easier, right, It makes it much idio 4120 03:29:43,040 --> 03:29:45,560 Speaker 4: for not to not have to learn a language. Trudeau 4121 03:29:45,680 --> 03:29:49,839 Speaker 4: did agree to list cartels as terrorist organizations. 4122 03:29:50,920 --> 03:29:53,440 Speaker 1: That seems to be from what I can tell, the 4123 03:29:53,480 --> 03:29:54,760 Speaker 1: big move. 4124 03:29:54,600 --> 03:29:55,760 Speaker 8: That he made. 4125 03:29:56,120 --> 03:29:59,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, so it does allow for some economic sanctions, right 4126 03:30:00,480 --> 03:30:03,520 Speaker 4: if they attempt to use that Canadian border and sort 4127 03:30:03,520 --> 03:30:06,640 Speaker 4: of get around the United States. It's much less significant 4128 03:30:06,680 --> 03:30:10,640 Speaker 4: than a US listing, which we believe is coming. Canada's 4129 03:30:10,680 --> 03:30:13,400 Speaker 4: not going to use it to do covert operations inside Mexico. 4130 03:30:13,440 --> 03:30:15,880 Speaker 4: I don't think Canada's not going to be drone striking anyone. 4131 03:30:16,240 --> 03:30:20,560 Speaker 4: But when Trump listed the Codes Force, he then structs 4132 03:30:20,800 --> 03:30:22,959 Speaker 4: its leader, right with a drone I don't think Trudeau 4133 03:30:23,040 --> 03:30:24,280 Speaker 4: is going to be I don't think Canada's going to 4134 03:30:24,320 --> 03:30:28,000 Speaker 4: be doing that. But nonetheless, that is a concession, and 4135 03:30:28,959 --> 03:30:31,520 Speaker 4: perhaps there is some plan for that right, it certainly 4136 03:30:31,560 --> 03:30:34,240 Speaker 4: allows for, and I've said this before, at the economic 4137 03:30:34,240 --> 03:30:38,000 Speaker 4: sanctioning of people who provide material benefit to those organizations, 4138 03:30:38,120 --> 03:30:40,520 Speaker 4: or potentially the arrest of people who provide material benefit 4139 03:30:40,560 --> 03:30:44,400 Speaker 4: to those organizations, which is a large number of businesses 4140 03:30:44,400 --> 03:30:47,160 Speaker 4: in Mexico which end up being extorted or paying protection money. 4141 03:30:47,280 --> 03:30:47,560 Speaker 10: Right. 4142 03:30:47,640 --> 03:30:50,520 Speaker 4: So we don't know what is going to happen with that, 4143 03:30:50,680 --> 03:30:52,920 Speaker 4: but it's one of the tools that Trump now has 4144 03:30:52,920 --> 03:30:57,480 Speaker 4: to use as another cudgel against it against Mexico. The 4145 03:30:57,600 --> 03:31:01,800 Speaker 4: last and perhaps most sinister of all development is this 4146 03:31:02,080 --> 03:31:04,320 Speaker 4: deal that Marco Rubio is struck. 4147 03:31:04,040 --> 03:31:05,720 Speaker 3: With boukele in de El Salvador. Right. 4148 03:31:06,160 --> 03:31:09,480 Speaker 4: El Salvador has said it will host US citizen criminals 4149 03:31:09,480 --> 03:31:12,320 Speaker 4: and deportees from any nation in its jail system. So 4150 03:31:12,320 --> 03:31:13,440 Speaker 4: I just read Boukelly's tweet. 4151 03:31:13,480 --> 03:31:14,160 Speaker 8: It's very short. 4152 03:31:14,400 --> 03:31:18,080 Speaker 4: We are willing to take in only convicted criminals parentheses, 4153 03:31:18,120 --> 03:31:22,920 Speaker 4: including convicted US citizens into a mega prison second, in 4154 03:31:23,000 --> 03:31:25,760 Speaker 4: exchange for a fee. The fee would be relatively low 4155 03:31:25,800 --> 03:31:28,600 Speaker 4: for the US, but significant for US, making our entire 4156 03:31:28,640 --> 03:31:33,040 Speaker 4: prison system sustainable. If you're not familiar, it means CHUAC 4157 03:31:33,120 --> 03:31:35,160 Speaker 4: terrorism confinements enter into Spanish. 4158 03:31:35,879 --> 03:31:37,520 Speaker 3: For people who haven't heard about this. 4159 03:31:37,640 --> 03:31:40,560 Speaker 4: It's the largest prison in the world that Bukelly opened 4160 03:31:40,560 --> 03:31:42,720 Speaker 4: in twenty twenty three, and it's a terrible place. 4161 03:31:43,040 --> 03:31:44,840 Speaker 3: There are cells of one hundred people. 4162 03:31:45,480 --> 03:31:47,920 Speaker 4: In that cell, there are eighty bunks, two toilets, and 4163 03:31:47,959 --> 03:31:52,280 Speaker 4: two basins. They are extremely confined. I think they get 4164 03:31:52,320 --> 03:31:56,039 Speaker 4: six point five feet of space per person. They get 4165 03:31:56,080 --> 03:31:58,480 Speaker 4: thirty minutes outside a day. They're forced to shave their heads, 4166 03:31:58,520 --> 03:32:01,840 Speaker 4: their ankles, and risk a chain. People are arbitrarily detained there. 4167 03:32:01,879 --> 03:32:03,800 Speaker 4: Sometimes the things like looking like they might be in 4168 03:32:03,800 --> 03:32:07,720 Speaker 4: a gang. Multiple human rights organizations including that, well, the 4169 03:32:07,720 --> 03:32:08,279 Speaker 4: State Department. 4170 03:32:08,320 --> 03:32:10,520 Speaker 3: It's not a human rights organization. Sometimes it's the opposite 4171 03:32:10,520 --> 03:32:10,760 Speaker 3: of that. 4172 03:32:11,440 --> 03:32:14,680 Speaker 4: The State Department itself has raised concerns about human rights 4173 03:32:14,720 --> 03:32:17,160 Speaker 4: abuse due to the quote unquote state of exception which 4174 03:32:17,160 --> 03:32:19,880 Speaker 4: exists in El Salvador, which allows the government to do 4175 03:32:19,920 --> 03:32:24,560 Speaker 4: these things without really any human rights ob sight. The 4176 03:32:24,640 --> 03:32:30,040 Speaker 4: US has already seemingly moved some migrants to Guantanamo Bay, 4177 03:32:30,080 --> 03:32:33,000 Speaker 4: to the Guantanamo Bay Detention Center, and satellite imagery has 4178 03:32:33,000 --> 03:32:36,800 Speaker 4: shown tents going up there. Very few at the current time, 4179 03:32:37,560 --> 03:32:39,480 Speaker 4: and it seemed to come from Fort Lewis mccaud, which 4180 03:32:39,520 --> 03:32:42,680 Speaker 4: I couldn't work out. But there are tents. I guess 4181 03:32:42,720 --> 03:32:44,600 Speaker 4: I think I was washed. The Post had these satellite 4182 03:32:44,600 --> 03:32:47,160 Speaker 4: images of tents being constructed there. I'm trying to keep 4183 03:32:47,200 --> 03:32:49,960 Speaker 4: an eye on that satellite imagery. Of course, Biden open 4184 03:32:50,000 --> 03:32:53,640 Speaker 4: the door to outdoor attention. It's not impossible that we 4185 03:32:53,720 --> 03:32:58,119 Speaker 4: will see that again. But this Kaelic plan, this plan 4186 03:32:58,240 --> 03:33:02,560 Speaker 4: to send people to Al Salvador, especially US citizens, Evidently 4187 03:33:02,680 --> 03:33:06,240 Speaker 4: this is unconstitutional. The courts get to decide how much 4188 03:33:06,320 --> 03:33:09,600 Speaker 4: that matters, right, we don't, but this is deeply concerning. 4189 03:33:09,879 --> 03:33:13,800 Speaker 2: We're all waiting on the courts and we're all deeply concerned. 4190 03:33:14,640 --> 03:33:15,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, there you. 4191 03:33:15,920 --> 03:33:18,040 Speaker 2: Go, one final break and then we'll come back to 4192 03:33:18,160 --> 03:33:21,320 Speaker 2: end and discuss Trump's targeting of teachers in relation to 4193 03:33:21,480 --> 03:33:37,320 Speaker 2: gender ideology. Welcome back. So, last week, Trump signed an 4194 03:33:37,320 --> 03:33:41,440 Speaker 2: executive order titled Ending Radical Indoctrination in K through twelve schooling, 4195 03:33:41,760 --> 03:33:44,200 Speaker 2: and part of its focus was to prevent teachers from 4196 03:33:44,200 --> 03:33:47,480 Speaker 2: calling trans students by their names and preferred pronouns, even 4197 03:33:47,520 --> 03:33:50,800 Speaker 2: promising to inflict legal punishment for doing so, basically like 4198 03:33:50,920 --> 03:33:56,120 Speaker 2: mandating dead naming, misgendering, and forcibly detransitioning students, and this 4199 03:33:56,320 --> 03:33:59,360 Speaker 2: order specifically took aim at quote unquote social transition. 4200 03:33:59,760 --> 03:33:59,920 Speaker 6: Right. 4201 03:34:00,040 --> 03:34:02,800 Speaker 2: This is like the non medical social aspects of transitioning, 4202 03:34:03,080 --> 03:34:07,640 Speaker 2: like changing gender, names, pronouns, you know what facilities you use, 4203 03:34:07,800 --> 03:34:10,680 Speaker 2: socialization and like this TOYFF has historically been, you know, 4204 03:34:10,720 --> 03:34:14,360 Speaker 2: the most common form of transition for minors. It's the 4205 03:34:14,400 --> 03:34:17,360 Speaker 2: easiest to do. You don't even need you like your parents' help. 4206 03:34:18,040 --> 03:34:22,279 Speaker 2: But this order blames schools for indoctrinating children in quote 4207 03:34:22,480 --> 03:34:27,440 Speaker 2: radical anti American ideologies unquote, which they include gender ideology. 4208 03:34:27,440 --> 03:34:29,920 Speaker 2: As a part of the order, tries to mandate a 4209 03:34:30,040 --> 03:34:33,640 Speaker 2: national school bathroom band, restrict participation in school sports, and 4210 03:34:33,720 --> 03:34:36,800 Speaker 2: states that within ninety days, the Secretary of Education, the 4211 03:34:36,840 --> 03:34:40,440 Speaker 2: Secretary of Defense, and the Secretary of Health and Human Services, 4212 03:34:40,480 --> 03:34:43,240 Speaker 2: and the Attorney General shall provide Trump with a quote 4213 03:34:43,320 --> 03:34:48,039 Speaker 2: unquote ending in doctrination strategy to protect parental rights and 4214 03:34:48,120 --> 03:34:52,360 Speaker 2: eliminate all federal funding that directly or indirectly supports gender 4215 03:34:52,400 --> 03:34:55,680 Speaker 2: ideology and doctrination in K through twelve schools, including curriculums, 4216 03:34:55,879 --> 03:35:01,640 Speaker 2: teacher education, certification, licensing, employment, and training. Quote from the order, quote, 4217 03:35:01,760 --> 03:35:04,800 Speaker 2: the Attorney General shall coordinate with state attorneys general and 4218 03:35:04,879 --> 03:35:08,119 Speaker 2: local district attorneys in their efforts to enforce the law 4219 03:35:08,200 --> 03:35:12,119 Speaker 2: and file appropriate actions against k through twelve teachers who 4220 03:35:12,200 --> 03:35:17,320 Speaker 2: violate the law by one sexually exploiting miners, two unlawfully 4221 03:35:17,480 --> 03:35:22,240 Speaker 2: practicing medicine by offering diagnoses and treatment without the requisite license, 4222 03:35:22,520 --> 03:35:27,120 Speaker 2: and three otherwise unlawfully facilitating in the social transition of 4223 03:35:27,160 --> 03:35:30,000 Speaker 2: a minor unquote. So basically, the goal is to try 4224 03:35:30,040 --> 03:35:33,440 Speaker 2: to make calling a student by their name and pronouns 4225 03:35:33,440 --> 03:35:36,680 Speaker 2: illegal and wrapping this in either with some form of 4226 03:35:36,920 --> 03:35:41,240 Speaker 2: ex sexual exploitation, practicing medicine without a license, and using 4227 03:35:41,320 --> 03:35:43,840 Speaker 2: those as justifications for making this practice illegal. 4228 03:35:44,600 --> 03:35:44,840 Speaker 6: Now. 4229 03:35:44,920 --> 03:35:48,240 Speaker 2: In response, school districts in Columbus, Ohio, Harrisburg, Virginia, and 4230 03:35:48,240 --> 03:35:51,080 Speaker 2: Montgomery County, Maryland announced that they would not comply with 4231 03:35:51,160 --> 03:35:54,680 Speaker 2: the order and continue to defend their students, according to journalists. 4232 03:35:54,680 --> 03:35:58,080 Speaker 2: To Aaron Reid, Seattle Public Schools published a statement reaffirming 4233 03:35:58,120 --> 03:36:01,560 Speaker 2: their commitment to protecting LGBTQUS students and staff, and later 4234 03:36:01,720 --> 03:36:05,160 Speaker 2: the California Department of Education pushed back on the legality 4235 03:36:05,200 --> 03:36:08,280 Speaker 2: of Trump's order. Other Blue cities and states have stayed 4236 03:36:08,360 --> 03:36:11,120 Speaker 2: quiet in the week since the order, with teachers and 4237 03:36:11,160 --> 03:36:14,520 Speaker 2: parents calling on places like the New York City Public 4238 03:36:14,520 --> 03:36:17,000 Speaker 2: School System to take a stance on if they will 4239 03:36:17,000 --> 03:36:20,560 Speaker 2: stand up for their transit students. So this is one 4240 03:36:20,640 --> 03:36:24,320 Speaker 2: side of the coin right now. The other side is healthcare, 4241 03:36:24,360 --> 03:36:26,959 Speaker 2: which we will close on now. In relation to Trump's 4242 03:36:26,959 --> 03:36:31,120 Speaker 2: executive order from his first week entitled Defending Women from 4243 03:36:31,240 --> 03:36:35,360 Speaker 2: gender ideology Extremism and Restoring Biological Truth to the Federal 4244 03:36:35,360 --> 03:36:39,920 Speaker 2: Government now, some hospitals have begun complying in advance by 4245 03:36:39,920 --> 03:36:44,000 Speaker 2: canceling patient appointments for gender affirming care. Denver Health and 4246 03:36:44,120 --> 03:36:47,000 Speaker 2: University of Colorado Health sacrificed the care of their patients 4247 03:36:47,040 --> 03:36:50,039 Speaker 2: for Trump's promise of continued funding by announcing that they 4248 03:36:50,040 --> 03:36:52,959 Speaker 2: would no longer be offering care including blockers and hormone 4249 03:36:52,959 --> 03:36:57,360 Speaker 2: replacement therapy for patients eighteen and under. The Virginia Commonwealth 4250 03:36:57,440 --> 03:37:00,800 Speaker 2: University and Children's Hospital of Richmond have also seen providing 4251 03:37:00,920 --> 03:37:04,040 Speaker 2: gender affirming care to those under nineteen. This past Monday, 4252 03:37:04,080 --> 03:37:07,080 Speaker 2: thousands of people gathered outside at the NYU Langan Hospital 4253 03:37:07,240 --> 03:37:10,039 Speaker 2: in protest of the hospital's choice to proactively comply with 4254 03:37:10,040 --> 03:37:12,920 Speaker 2: Trump's order to restrict healthcare. As the cancelation of two 4255 03:37:12,920 --> 03:37:16,120 Speaker 2: appointments for transpatients under the age of nineteen. Now, after 4256 03:37:16,160 --> 03:37:19,680 Speaker 2: these protests, which saw thousands of people protesting out in 4257 03:37:19,760 --> 03:37:22,920 Speaker 2: the streets. After this, the New York Attwority General sent 4258 03:37:22,920 --> 03:37:25,720 Speaker 2: a letter to the state healthcare systems saying that the 4259 03:37:25,840 --> 03:37:30,400 Speaker 2: state law requires that hospitals provide gender affirming care and 4260 03:37:30,440 --> 03:37:33,560 Speaker 2: claimed that the federal funding would not be impacted by 4261 03:37:33,680 --> 03:37:37,720 Speaker 2: inexecutive order. And like this really hammers on the point 4262 03:37:37,720 --> 03:37:40,199 Speaker 2: that like none of these executive orders are self enforcing, 4263 03:37:40,720 --> 03:37:46,119 Speaker 2: these all require proactive implementation by local actors. Doctor Jeremy 4264 03:37:46,120 --> 03:37:48,720 Speaker 2: Bernbaum was quoted in the New York Times. He's at 4265 03:37:48,760 --> 03:37:51,600 Speaker 2: pediatrician at the state run University Hospital of Brooklyn, and 4266 03:37:51,720 --> 03:37:54,080 Speaker 2: he was quoted as saying, quote, I am willing to 4267 03:37:54,160 --> 03:37:57,680 Speaker 2: go to jail to continue to provide your care, unquote. 4268 03:37:58,360 --> 03:38:02,240 Speaker 2: And you really can like protest hospitals that that comply 4269 03:38:02,280 --> 03:38:04,920 Speaker 2: in advance. The same thing with schools are these are 4270 03:38:04,959 --> 03:38:07,760 Speaker 2: targets that can provide actual pressure. And there's probably people 4271 03:38:07,800 --> 03:38:10,160 Speaker 2: on staff who are very sympathetic, and they just might 4272 03:38:10,200 --> 03:38:12,640 Speaker 2: be too scared to take a stance. Right now, and 4273 03:38:12,760 --> 03:38:15,199 Speaker 2: we have some breaking news as of this morning, State 4274 03:38:15,240 --> 03:38:20,920 Speaker 2: Attorney General from California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Main Maryland, Massachusetts, 4275 03:38:21,000 --> 03:38:25,320 Speaker 2: New Jersey, Rhode Island, Nevada, Vermont, and Wisconsin released a 4276 03:38:25,360 --> 03:38:29,000 Speaker 2: statement saying that Trump's executive order banning trans healthcare is 4277 03:38:29,080 --> 03:38:32,160 Speaker 2: unlawful and the hospitals have a duty to provide care. 4278 03:38:32,959 --> 03:38:35,600 Speaker 2: So this is like the the most optimistic thing that 4279 03:38:35,600 --> 03:38:37,920 Speaker 2: we've seen so far. Now, obviously these these these are 4280 03:38:37,959 --> 03:38:40,160 Speaker 2: blue states. This is not going to impact red states 4281 03:38:40,160 --> 03:38:43,320 Speaker 2: who already have these types of bands either in process 4282 03:38:43,560 --> 03:38:47,039 Speaker 2: or you know, are going to have them down the line. 4283 03:38:47,480 --> 03:38:51,680 Speaker 2: At Georgia just put out a trans healthcare ban this 4284 03:38:51,800 --> 03:38:54,320 Speaker 2: morning for you know, a bill that'll reach our Senate 4285 03:38:54,360 --> 03:38:56,760 Speaker 2: in the next few weeks. But this is this is 4286 03:38:56,800 --> 03:38:59,840 Speaker 2: the current situation. Protests seem to have applied a degree 4287 03:38:59,840 --> 03:39:02,520 Speaker 2: of pressure that has gotten the state's attorney general to 4288 03:39:02,560 --> 03:39:04,200 Speaker 2: actually make a statement on this issue. 4289 03:39:04,360 --> 03:39:07,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, I will say, like so, I still teach, right 4290 03:39:07,080 --> 03:39:09,440 Speaker 4: a teacher at a community college, and sometimes through that 4291 03:39:09,440 --> 03:39:11,760 Speaker 4: we also teach high school students. If you are an 4292 03:39:11,879 --> 03:39:15,640 Speaker 4: educator or someone in healthcare, now is the time to 4293 03:39:15,680 --> 03:39:18,320 Speaker 4: be talking to your union about like how you meet 4294 03:39:18,360 --> 03:39:22,760 Speaker 4: this because like, the stronger we are the better we 4295 03:39:22,800 --> 03:39:24,959 Speaker 4: can confront this. And the only way to confront this 4296 03:39:25,080 --> 03:39:26,800 Speaker 4: is we all need to do it together. And like, 4297 03:39:28,320 --> 03:39:31,160 Speaker 4: these are conversations that we need to be having right now, 4298 03:39:31,280 --> 03:39:33,960 Speaker 4: Like we do not have time, and our unions are 4299 03:39:34,000 --> 03:39:36,160 Speaker 4: a very valuable tool for preserving our rights. 4300 03:39:36,440 --> 03:39:37,920 Speaker 10: Yeah, that's actually part of I was going to say. 4301 03:39:38,280 --> 03:39:42,360 Speaker 10: I've talked to a few union teachers who are like, yeah, 4302 03:39:42,400 --> 03:39:44,160 Speaker 10: we're gonna we're gonna go do this, We're going to 4303 03:39:44,240 --> 03:39:47,480 Speaker 10: go fight. So I expect in the next couple of 4304 03:39:47,480 --> 03:39:49,680 Speaker 10: weeks we're going to see more movement from the teachers' unions. 4305 03:39:50,360 --> 03:39:53,080 Speaker 10: And I think there's you know, there's an under I 4306 03:39:53,120 --> 03:39:54,760 Speaker 10: mean there's On the one hand, there is the threat 4307 03:39:54,800 --> 03:39:57,520 Speaker 10: that you know, these people do want to privatize the 4308 03:39:57,600 --> 03:40:01,040 Speaker 10: education system, right, so there is a chance that this 4309 03:40:01,120 --> 03:40:03,160 Speaker 10: is you know, trying to draw a backlash out of 4310 03:40:03,160 --> 03:40:05,040 Speaker 10: this is something that they're going to try to use 4311 03:40:05,160 --> 03:40:09,199 Speaker 10: to just completely eliminate like national federal education. But also, 4312 03:40:09,520 --> 03:40:11,560 Speaker 10: you know, this is something we've I want want to 4313 03:40:11,560 --> 03:40:13,280 Speaker 10: close this episode on that we've been talking about this 4314 03:40:13,320 --> 03:40:16,880 Speaker 10: whole time, right, is that this this whole coup is 4315 03:40:16,920 --> 03:40:20,560 Speaker 10: being carried out by a bunch of people with laptops 4316 03:40:20,600 --> 03:40:22,640 Speaker 10: and pieces of paper walking up the bureaucrats, and the 4317 03:40:22,680 --> 03:40:25,760 Speaker 10: bureaucrats doing what they're being told. Right, this is this 4318 03:40:25,800 --> 03:40:28,400 Speaker 10: is not a coup that's working with like an army 4319 03:40:28,400 --> 03:40:32,000 Speaker 10: that is showing up on your street. And you can go, 4320 03:40:32,440 --> 03:40:35,040 Speaker 10: like find the local bureaucrats who are the people who 4321 03:40:35,040 --> 03:40:36,920 Speaker 10: are supposed to enforce this stuff, and you can protest 4322 03:40:36,959 --> 03:40:38,760 Speaker 10: them and you can put some steel in their spine 4323 03:40:38,800 --> 03:40:41,400 Speaker 10: and make them make the administration actually try to do this. 4324 03:40:41,840 --> 03:40:43,800 Speaker 10: It's not that hard and they'll fucking cave. 4325 03:40:44,360 --> 03:40:44,560 Speaker 3: Yes. 4326 03:40:44,760 --> 03:40:47,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, that's that's entirely what I was trying to 4327 03:40:47,480 --> 03:40:50,320 Speaker 1: get at earlier, and and you know, it ties into 4328 03:40:50,320 --> 03:40:52,600 Speaker 1: what James was saying, is like, this is the time 4329 03:40:52,640 --> 03:40:56,640 Speaker 1: to be making connections across as white a swath of 4330 03:40:56,720 --> 03:40:59,680 Speaker 1: the country as you can, including like everyone you can 4331 03:40:59,720 --> 03:41:03,600 Speaker 1: get in touch with who is not someone you would 4332 03:41:03,640 --> 03:41:06,560 Speaker 1: normally organize with, Like this is a moment of potential, 4333 03:41:06,680 --> 03:41:10,280 Speaker 1: and it's during moments of potential that you should be 4334 03:41:11,040 --> 03:41:14,680 Speaker 1: widening the swath of people that you connect to, because 4335 03:41:14,720 --> 03:41:17,600 Speaker 1: otherwise there's just no getting through this sort of shit. 4336 03:41:18,360 --> 03:41:20,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, we will be covering all these topics more in 4337 03:41:20,840 --> 03:41:23,800 Speaker 2: depth in our regular like daily episodes. I have a 4338 03:41:24,000 --> 03:41:28,680 Speaker 2: mind boggling, very frustrating episode on musk and the Trump 4339 03:41:28,760 --> 03:41:32,840 Speaker 2: campaign's promises of abolishing different departments of government, as well 4340 03:41:32,840 --> 03:41:35,320 Speaker 2: as a deep dive on like affirmative action and DEI 4341 03:41:35,480 --> 03:41:38,280 Speaker 2: wokeness in the coming weeks, and I'm sure we will 4342 03:41:38,280 --> 03:41:40,520 Speaker 2: all be focusing on different parts of this in our 4343 03:41:40,520 --> 03:41:43,000 Speaker 2: continuing episodes. But that does it for us today. See 4344 03:41:43,040 --> 03:41:45,280 Speaker 2: you on the other side. 4345 03:41:46,040 --> 03:41:47,080 Speaker 10: We reported the news. 4346 03:41:49,959 --> 03:41:53,160 Speaker 1: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 4347 03:41:53,200 --> 03:41:54,640 Speaker 1: from now until the heat death. 4348 03:41:54,440 --> 03:41:55,080 Speaker 3: Of the universe. 4349 03:41:55,640 --> 03:41:58,160 Speaker 17: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 4350 03:41:58,320 --> 03:42:01,400 Speaker 17: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 4351 03:42:01,440 --> 03:42:05,040 Speaker 17: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 4352 03:42:05,120 --> 03:42:08,640 Speaker 17: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 4353 03:42:08,720 --> 03:42:11,040 Speaker 17: now find sources for It Could Happen here, listed directly 4354 03:42:11,080 --> 03:42:13,360 Speaker 17: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.