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Speaker 1: Cyrus Mussumi grew up in one of the most affluent

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Speaker 1: counties in America, and we're in just north of San Francisco.

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Speaker 1: There was a lot of wealth around him that his

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Speaker 1: family didn't have, and early on he knew exactly what

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Speaker 1: he wanted in life. My only thing that I ever

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Speaker 1: wanted to do was to come rich. For a very

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Speaker 1: long time. When he was in the middle of college

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Speaker 1: in Cyrus landed his ticket to big money. He founded

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Speaker 1: a news site called Mr Conservative dot com. The plan

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Speaker 1: was to use Facebook to get tons of traffic to

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Speaker 1: his website and then to turn that traffic into add dollars.

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Speaker 1: That required resorting to some controversial tactics. There was a

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Speaker 1: vast market of Wall Street journal like Fox News, sort

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Speaker 1: of boring headlines, and I was the first one that

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Speaker 1: sort of pushed the envelope. Now, there are certain ideals

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Speaker 1: that a lot of journalists as included. We'll say we

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Speaker 1: live by things being unbiased and accurate. Cyrus essentially through

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Speaker 1: that all out of the window. He gave his conservative

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Speaker 1: readers what he believed they actually wanted. We know that

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Speaker 1: the title has to be tilted. We know that we

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Speaker 1: have to exclude the facts because if we say anything

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Speaker 1: good about the opponent, then people are like, oh, you're liberals,

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Speaker 1: your closet liberals. So there is no room to be objective,

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Speaker 1: there is no room to deliver quality. The market has

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Speaker 1: always responded, now give me garbage, give me outrage, give

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Speaker 1: me you know, a quickbait. Mr conservative dot Com was

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Speaker 1: an instant success, and over the years it only got bigger.

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Speaker 1: The site ended up amassing a billion page views in

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Speaker 1: its lifetime, and all those eyeballs meant that Cyrus was

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Speaker 1: finally rich, or at least richer than he ever was

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Speaker 1: as a kid. But one day Cyrus realized that his

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Speaker 1: creation had gone too far and he had a monster

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Speaker 1: on his hands. His sight at snowballed into a phenomenon

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Speaker 1: that we've all been taught thinking about for a year now.

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Speaker 1: So I sort of view myself as a patient zero

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Speaker 1: fake news. Hi. I'm aki Ito, and I'm Sarah Fryer,

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Speaker 1: and this week on Decrypted, we're bringing you the story

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Speaker 1: of Cyrus's quest for partisan influence online. It wasn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: about pushing an agenda. It definitely wasn't about the Russians.

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Speaker 1: It was mostly about making money. Cyrus learned what makes

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Speaker 1: people click and share and taught a lot of other

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Speaker 1: people to build blood sites like his, to the point

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Speaker 1: where things spiraled out of control ahead of Trump's election.

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Speaker 1: After Facebook started cracking down on fake news, Cyrus shifting gears.

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Speaker 1: Now he's focused on building a site that's less vitriolic,

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Speaker 1: although he's worried the social network's new roles might crush

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Speaker 1: his next projects. Anyway, stay with us, So, Sarah, the

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Speaker 1: first time you talked to Cyrus was right after the election. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I had been emailing websites that were spreading fake news,

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Speaker 1: curious about how they ran their businesses and how they

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Speaker 1: felt about their impact on Trump's victory. Nobody wanted to talk.

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Speaker 1: A couple of them forwarded my email to Cirius and

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Speaker 1: he reached out, saying he could speak for several publishers

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Speaker 1: at once. A lot has changed since then, new details

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Speaker 1: on Russian interference in the election and how it ties

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Speaker 1: to Facebook ad People get their news from social media,

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Speaker 1: with Facebook being the top social media news source on

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Speaker 1: Capitol Hill. Tech giants Google, Facebook, and Twitter Septis testify

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Speaker 1: on how their platforms were used by Russian groups during

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Speaker 1: the election campaign, and all of this has had big

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Speaker 1: consequences for Cyrus's business, which is why we drove out

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Speaker 1: to Napa to go meet the guy. Are we alive,

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Speaker 1: We're just we're just talking. We're warming up. Cyrus is

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Speaker 1: twenty six years old and lives at his family vineyard

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Speaker 1: with his mother. Now that sounds luxurious, but he said

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Speaker 1: it can actually be pretty boring. His relationship with the

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Speaker 1: media started a decade earlier in high school in Marwin County,

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Speaker 1: just across the Golden Gate Bridge from San Francisco. I

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Speaker 1: was a loner. I was bullied. Uh, I never had

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Speaker 1: any friends. All I ever wanted to do was be

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Speaker 1: rich because I grew up in Bay Area and everybody

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Speaker 1: else was rich. And although my family was rich, my

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Speaker 1: grandparents were rich, my mother was a single mother, and

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Speaker 1: I had to move around a lot, I think ten times.

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Speaker 1: And then, like, you know, your friends all living like

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Speaker 1: a five to ten million dollar house, and you can

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Speaker 1: feel very poor. So it's very easy to build up

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Speaker 1: a lot of resentment and become a contrarian. And that's

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Speaker 1: what happened. One day when he was a senior in

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Speaker 1: high school, all that resentment bubbled up into a screed

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Speaker 1: he wrote criticizing people in the County for what he

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Speaker 1: saw as hypocrisy. He said, they would say they're open minded,

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Speaker 1: but they didn't like his conservative ideas. He published a

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Speaker 1: paper called the Deadwood Barf, a play on his high

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Speaker 1: school newspaper that was called the Redwood Bark. It gave

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Speaker 1: his own take on gay marriage, environmentalism, and his fellow residence.

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Speaker 1: It was pretty offensive, and the school suspended Cyrus for

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Speaker 1: five days. It became a spectacle covered in the local news.

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Speaker 1: At age seventeen, Cyrus got to go on the radio

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Speaker 1: and give quotes to local papers. I found that I

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Speaker 1: am in love with the media. I love politics, I

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Speaker 1: love debate, I love argument, and I decided that controversy

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Speaker 1: was my forteme. Controversy was also how he was going

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Speaker 1: to become rich. Cyrus went to college and Facebook started

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Speaker 1: to catch on. He learned everything he could about how

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Speaker 1: it made information spread. Back then, people weren't really sharing

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Speaker 1: news on Facebook, but they were selling t shirts. Cyrus

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Speaker 1: started selling t shirts with conservative slogans on them. That

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Speaker 1: was his first attempt at building a wider community of

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Speaker 1: people who cared about the issues that he did. Once

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Speaker 1: IRUs figured out how to build a community through Facebook ads,

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Speaker 1: he started his own news business called Mr Conservative dot Com.

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Speaker 1: His partner wanted to cater to educated people with real

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Speaker 1: influence in Washington, but Cyrus he wanted to target the

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Speaker 1: people who were the most profitable, people who cared less

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Speaker 1: about being informed and cared more about being validated. People

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Speaker 1: looking for highly partisan content that even when a step

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Speaker 1: further than Fox News is willing to go. To grow

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Speaker 1: his audience, he got people to like miss their Conservatives

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Speaker 1: Facebook page. He purchased ads on the platform to attract

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Speaker 1: conservative readers. Facebook self service online ad buying system allows

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Speaker 1: businesses to target their advertising based on people's political beliefs.

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Speaker 1: This is from data Facebook collects by watching user behavior.

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Speaker 1: How do you buy fans? There's a user interface Facebook

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Speaker 1: dot Com slash ads, slash manager, and you create ads,

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Speaker 1: and then you create an image and advert um. So

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Speaker 1: like let's say, for example, an image of Obama, and

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Speaker 1: it will say like if you think Obama is the

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Speaker 1: worst president ever, um for Trump, like like if you

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Speaker 1: think Trump should be impeached and uh. Then you pay

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Speaker 1: a price for those fans, uh, and then you retain them.

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Speaker 1: You pay a heavy upfront cost per fan. But then

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Speaker 1: every month, let's say you make a little bit of

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Speaker 1: that back, and then the hope is is that, ok,

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Speaker 1: after a year, year and a half, whatever, you pay

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Speaker 1: it off. At first, he says, he tried to make

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Speaker 1: a real news site with the goal of informing people.

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Speaker 1: He invested in video and long form stories, but that

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Speaker 1: wasn't what actually worked to get readers. So he gave

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Speaker 1: them what they wanted. So Mr Conservative was actually the

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Speaker 1: first conservative, truly conservative thing on Facebook. And I understood

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Speaker 1: that the people that we were appealing to were sort

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Speaker 1: of breathless Fox News viewers who longed for highly partisan content,

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Speaker 1: and Cyrus finally got what he wanted. As a result,

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Speaker 1: he was making tens of thousands of dollars a month.

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Speaker 1: That meant that for the first time, Cyrus had a

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Speaker 1: lot of money, which is what Cyrus wanted all these years,

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Speaker 1: but it led to all kinds of problems for him,

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Speaker 1: both personal and professional. Within a very short period of time,

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Speaker 1: I was making forty or fifty month, and that led

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Speaker 1: to a lot of personal problems because when you have

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Speaker 1: wanted money on your life and then all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden you're making forty or fifty month, and then it

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Speaker 1: lends itself to going out and doing bad things. He

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Speaker 1: was partying NonStop, He crashed two mercedes, He got arrested

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Speaker 1: repeatedly for being drunk in public. All that meant that

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Speaker 1: Cyrus wasn't dealing with some of the problems that were

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Speaker 1: emerging in his business. It got to a point where

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Speaker 1: I thought that there was no editorial value to any

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Speaker 1: of the content on Mr Conservative, publishing the occasional fake story, UH,

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Speaker 1: publishing misleading clickbait fairly often. UM, I think that towards

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Speaker 1: the end of Mr Conservative it was extremely misleading, and uh,

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of clickbait. He says he never

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Speaker 1: intend finally published fake news. He says he'd asked his

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Speaker 1: editors to delete it when they found it, but everything

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Speaker 1: was moving so fast and the metabolism for content was

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Speaker 1: so great that there just wasn't much time to check everything.

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Speaker 1: This is your sort of an accidental byproducts of the

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Speaker 1: fact that you have too many people competing for too

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Speaker 1: smaller the news feed, trying to outdo one another, trying

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Speaker 1: to find the most interesting stories. If you were seven

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Speaker 1: days a week doing let's say fifteen stories a day,

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Speaker 1: like let's say three months of that, when you come

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Speaker 1: across the fake story, it doesn't look that fake to you.

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Speaker 1: It's like your mind is just trained. It's like, oh that, well,

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Speaker 1: I must be sure, because you know, I'm just I've

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Speaker 1: in't it doing this all day. After a while, Cyrus

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Speaker 1: finally got his act together, and that was when the

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Speaker 1: realization set in. I think that I started feeling bad

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Speaker 1: about it in late two sixteen, But you still kept

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Speaker 1: this site up. I did. Why Why Why does a

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Speaker 1: lawyer do work for a client that he disagrees with?

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Speaker 1: What do you think he meant by that? But people

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Speaker 1: do things for a living even if they don't morally

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Speaker 1: agree with it. You know, I disagreed with the editorial.

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Speaker 1: I told my editor whenever we spoke how much I

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Speaker 1: disagreed with it, I would tell her to run clean stuff.

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Speaker 1: We ran clean stuff. We couldn't get traffic. The site

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Speaker 1: ran on all cylinders through, hitting its peak just before

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Speaker 1: the US presidential election. At that point, it was making

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Speaker 1: a hundred fifty thou dollars in revenue a month, with

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Speaker 1: fifty thou dollars in profit. Cyrus started several other conservative sites,

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Speaker 1: to which he declined to name for US. He did

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Speaker 1: say that other people in the industry who had learned

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Speaker 1: from him were making millions. Okay, so here's some sample

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Speaker 1: headlines from Mr Conservative dot com in October. Obama's darkest

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Speaker 1: secret leaks. He never wanted us to find this. Entitled

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Speaker 1: Muslim employee makes insane demand. Patriotic boss hits him back

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Speaker 1: with this breaking Hillary Clinton caught a major lie. This

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Speaker 1: could destroy her and then we all know what happened next.

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Speaker 1: I've just received a call from Secretary Clinton. She congratulated us,

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Speaker 1: it's about us on our victory, and I congratulated her

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Speaker 1: and her family on a very very Frump's victory would

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Speaker 1: alter the course of global affairs, as well as the

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Speaker 1: booming business that Cyrus had created. That's coming up next.

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Speaker 1: So let's pick up our story in November, right after

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Speaker 1: Trump selection. His victory surprised pretty much everyone, although Cyrus

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Speaker 1: says he saw it coming, and lots of people started

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Speaker 1: blaming Facebook for allowing fake news to proliferate on its

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Speaker 1: platform and influence voters. Misinformation from many sources certainly had

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Speaker 1: an impact on this election, and you can look at

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Speaker 1: that at all kinds of levels. Remember, neutrality was also

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Speaker 1: Facebook's first defense for how it pummeled users with pro

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Speaker 1: Trump fake news during the general election for lots of voters.

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Speaker 1: This was when it really became clear what a wide

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Speaker 1: reach these heavily partisan or fake news sites achieved on Facebook.

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Speaker 1: Although Cyrus had known about the power of these kinds

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Speaker 1: of stories for years and he made a lot of

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Speaker 1: money from exploiting that. Do I think that I turned

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Speaker 1: any votes now? I think that that's very fanciful thinking.

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Speaker 1: It costs exponentially more money to reach independence, and I've

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Speaker 1: always approached it as a business model. So you know,

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Speaker 1: for example, like let's say it costs five cents to

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Speaker 1: target a conservatives, to target a liberal, let's to buy

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Speaker 1: an independent on my cost of dollar, and they're going

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Speaker 1: to visit your website lass. So the proposition of Facebook

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Speaker 1: has never been to target independence. It's always been to

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Speaker 1: um sort of accentuate people's already partisan views, whether you're

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Speaker 1: a liberal or a conservative. If you're somebody who gets

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Speaker 1: here and news on Facebook, you're like a crazy person

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Speaker 1: who only has friends just like you, or the few

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Speaker 1: people who might disagree with you just disregard your views.

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Speaker 1: It's not like anybody shared a story, you know, saying

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Speaker 1: that the pope in doors Trump say a conservative and

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Speaker 1: then a liberal read oh, the popen door Trump. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go out and change my vote. Now

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Speaker 1: show me one. Can the media produce one? You know,

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Speaker 1: he sounds pretty defensive there. Well, he's right that, taken

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Speaker 1: in isolation, one story is unlikely to have sway. But

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Speaker 1: the thing about Facebook is that people spend an average

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Speaker 1: of fifty minutes there every day. That's a lot of exposure,

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Speaker 1: and repetition has a strong effect over time. Also, when

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Speaker 1: content is shared by friends and family, it carries much

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Speaker 1: greater weight than something you're saying see on a news website. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I said that people who may have thought they

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Speaker 1: were on the political fringes can find like minded community

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Speaker 1: and feel stronger about their stance. So, for example, they

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Speaker 1: might have turned out on election day for Trump when

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Speaker 1: otherwise they might have worried he had no chance of winning.

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Speaker 1: And Cyrus himself told us he definitely reached more people

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Speaker 1: than the Russians. He told us a single conservative meme

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Speaker 1: could reach twenty million people. He estimates that Mr Conservative

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Speaker 1: got about a billion page views in total over the years.

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Speaker 1: Compare that with the Russian propaganda firm, the Internet Research Agency,

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Speaker 1: which reached a hundred fifty million people on Facebook and

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Speaker 1: Instagram combined. I spoke to Brook Minkowski, an editor at

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Speaker 1: the fact checking site Snopes. Fans of the show will

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Speaker 1: remember her from our episode on fake News last year.

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Speaker 1: I told her how Cyrus feels. She said, she's heard

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Speaker 1: it all before. That's what they always say, that's what

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Speaker 1: helps him sleep at night. Sure, you know you enjoy

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Speaker 1: that while you look at your bank account. But the

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Speaker 1: truth is in the aggregate. All of this stuff is

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Speaker 1: dramatically affecting society for the much worse. And you know,

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Speaker 1: you can kid yourself and say, well, nobody ever read it,

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Speaker 1: it didn't really affect anything. But if people shared it,

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Speaker 1: they shared it to their friends and their family members

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Speaker 1: who weren't perhaps well informed, or don't care to be

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Speaker 1: well informed, or they're fifteen years old and they're still

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Speaker 1: developing their worldviews. You know, he can't say that. That's

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Speaker 1: really disingenuous of him. It is so obviously them trying

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Speaker 1: to distance themselves from the damage that they have done.

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Speaker 1: I told Brooke about how Cyrus said he never intended

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Speaker 1: to publish fake news, and Brooke did a search for

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Speaker 1: times Snopes had written about what Mr Conservative had published.

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Speaker 1: She sent me an example from October. Mr Conservative, which

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Speaker 1: Snopes described back then as an unreliable website, had posted

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Speaker 1: the headline warning Obama opens first concentration camp in US

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Speaker 1: plans to detain conservatives. A story in had the headline

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Speaker 1: ten facts that suggests Obama's birth certificate is fake. This guy,

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Speaker 1: in particular Mr Conservative was a birther or is a

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Speaker 1: birth I don't know who pushed a story about Obama

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Speaker 1: opening FEMA camps for political dissidents. Um. I think that

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Speaker 1: he probably was never that concerned about actual news to

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Speaker 1: begin with. And I've heard that particular excuse that that's

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Speaker 1: what the people want for a long time. He was

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Speaker 1: pushing disinformation, whether he wants to admit it or not.

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Speaker 1: And I don't care if that's what the people want.

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Speaker 1: If you're gonna call yourself a journalist and say that

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Speaker 1: you're dealing with journalism, you should not be putting out

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Speaker 1: misinformation or disinformation or straight up propaganda. And knowingly, the

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Speaker 1: public outcry after the election forced Facebook to roll out

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Speaker 1: a bunch of changes to the way it prioritizes news

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Speaker 1: stories on its platform. The company has been very intent

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Speaker 1: on looking for signals for pages that might be low quality.

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Speaker 1: It says that they're starting to de rank them in

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Speaker 1: in the news feed algorithm and make sure that people

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Speaker 1: don't have a bad experience when they click on these places.

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Speaker 1: And according to Cyrus, those changes had a huge impact

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Speaker 1: on his business as well as his competitors. Facebook is

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Speaker 1: specifically sought to destroy the conservative sides Facebook face. Do

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Speaker 1: you think Facebook tried to do that to your sides too, well,

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Speaker 1: Mr Conservative, Well, of course, I mean it was annihilated,

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Speaker 1: but it was not annihilated is in a profound way

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Speaker 1: as some of the people who are misbehaving more than me.

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Speaker 1: When Cyrus says that Mr Conservative was annihilated, he means

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Speaker 1: that traffic to the site did substantially. That happened in

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Speaker 1: increments's face were rolled out more and more changes that

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Speaker 1: were meant to curb fake news. You know, it's a

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Speaker 1: decision between like, Okay, I'm not gonna run a garbage website,

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Speaker 1: uh that is barely profitable after you know, we've had

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Speaker 1: eighty eight percent of our revenues kicked out after the

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Speaker 1: fake news crisis. Should I say or am I gonna

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Speaker 1: run a clean website and then I'm not gonna have

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Speaker 1: to pay whatever it is. You know, months just keep

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Speaker 1: it up and running. This past August, Cyrus shut down

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Speaker 1: Mr conservative dot com. If you try to go to

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Speaker 1: the U r L or any of the connected domains today,

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Speaker 1: you get nothing. And in the months leading up to

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Speaker 1: the election, he did something you might not expect. He

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Speaker 1: created a new site in July last year called Truth Examiner,

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Speaker 1: purchased a whole new set of bands on Facebook who

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Speaker 1: identify as Democrats, and hired a team of authentically liberal

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Speaker 1: editors to run it. He says he did this partly

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Speaker 1: because he was convinced Trump was gonna win. I started

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Speaker 1: Truth Examiner because, uh, I have a sort of genetic need.

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Speaker 1: It's just on a cellular level to oppose those in power.

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Speaker 1: Anyone who's powerful needs to be challenged, regardless of their

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Speaker 1: political orientation. And he would think that a site like

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Speaker 1: this catering to anti Trump outrage would thrive under Trump's presidency.

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Speaker 1: Cyrus worked hard to stay within the bounds of facebooks

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Speaker 1: and rules. So, you know, so we look at all

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Speaker 1: the guidelines that they've published, like these are the advertisements

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Speaker 1: that you should have. This is the type of content

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Speaker 1: that you should produce. I literally have I have IVY

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Speaker 1: League people and professors writing breaking news in the exact

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Speaker 1: way that has been specified, and despite what he says

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Speaker 1: were his best efforts, there was a huge drop off

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Speaker 1: and how much they clicked on truth Examiner's posts that

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Speaker 1: coincided with a big change Facebook rolled out to its

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Speaker 1: news feed. It's not easy being clean. I spoke to

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Speaker 1: Cyrus's editor in chief his liberal wedsite, Nicole Jaynes. She

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Speaker 1: said she's been intently reading Facebook's blog posts about how

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Speaker 1: to play it straight, give readers high quality content, avoid

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Speaker 1: click bait headline. Although I do see this headline right now.

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Speaker 1: Here are the Facebook ads Trump only wants his loyal

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Speaker 1: supporters to see. They are disturbing. Disturbing in all caps. Okay,

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Speaker 1: maybe she writes a few clickbait headlines, but traffic on

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Speaker 1: truth Examiner has remained dismal since Facebook's crackdown in March,

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Speaker 1: and Cyrus doesn't get it because he says he's playing

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Speaker 1: by the rules. And it makes Cyrus mad because he

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Speaker 1: still sees plenty of other sites thriving, even though they're

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Speaker 1: using the same shady tactics that Facebook's reportedly cracking down

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Speaker 1: on clickbait, sensationalism, fake news. Cyrus thinks that if Facebook

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Speaker 1: is giving advice on how to be a good website,

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Speaker 1: their platform might need to change to actually support the

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Speaker 1: people who follow it. So, Sarah, was there anything that

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Speaker 1: surprised you about Cyrus's story? Well, it just goes to

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Speaker 1: show that businesses, however shady, live and die on Facebook's whim.

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Speaker 1: This company has an enormous amount of power to sort

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Speaker 1: of dictate what we consume in media, and they don't

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Speaker 1: see themselves as the arbiter of that power. In fact,

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Speaker 1: they really shy away from it. But that doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: they don't have it, and it's getting stronger. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: scary that a single company has this much power, even

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Speaker 1: though we can all agree that less fake news on

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Speaker 1: Facebook is a good thing, right, But I think that

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Speaker 1: the way that they're wielding it is really confusing to

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Speaker 1: people who just want to be successful in the platform.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying Cyrus's business is an upstanding one, but uh,

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Speaker 1: I think that the company has been trying to be

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Speaker 1: a little bit more transparent with a lot of blog posts,

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Speaker 1: a lot of outreach collaboration with journalistic organizations, but they

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Speaker 1: still can't agree on where the gray lines are and

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Speaker 1: how hard they should be pushing to curb this kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff and what veers too far into the direction

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Speaker 1: of being an editorial person, right And if they're too transparent,

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Speaker 1: then you end up encouraging people who are kind of

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Speaker 1: like Cyrus who try to game the system again, right, Well,

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Speaker 1: and people will always try to gain the system. And

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Speaker 1: that's something that Facebook has been pretty open about that

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Speaker 1: they see fake news and information campaigns by foreign governments.

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Speaker 1: They see it is is something like like spam, or

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Speaker 1: hacking or or phishing scams, like another set of of

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Speaker 1: issues that a tech company has to deal with in

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Speaker 1: this day and age. So aside from the dent that

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Speaker 1: Facebook has made on Cyrus's business, do you think Facebook's

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Speaker 1: made serious inroads and curbing actual fake news? Well, I've

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Speaker 1: been looking into that, and when it comes to stopping

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Speaker 1: fake news, they have this team of fact checkers. Brooke

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Speaker 1: Mnkowski is one of them. I interviewed a bunch of

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Speaker 1: them a couple of weeks back, and it turns out

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Speaker 1: they have this dashboard where they go through and marked

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Speaker 1: stories as true or false. But it barely scrapes the

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Speaker 1: surface in terms of the amount of content that's actually

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Speaker 1: on Facebook. And they're not really focusing on the biggest,

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Speaker 1: most influential people like if. Cyrus says, if Facebook were

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Speaker 1: had just come to him, you know, he could gather

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Speaker 1: up all the other people in the industry and they

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Speaker 1: couldn't have a nice little meeting in Menlo Park. Instead,

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Speaker 1: they're going at it from the prospective of of taking

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Speaker 1: down the stories once they're up, which will maybe take

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Speaker 1: a lot longer. For now, Cyrus says he's focused on

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Speaker 1: building out Truth Examiner, which he wants to sell to

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Speaker 1: a big publisher like the Huffington Post for eight figures

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Speaker 1: down the road. Whatever he does, Cyrus says he won't

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Speaker 1: risk going back to his old ways. Even if he's

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Speaker 1: frustrated with Facebook. His business is completely dependent on it,

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Speaker 1: and he worries that if he crosses the line, Facebook

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Speaker 1: could ban his page altogether. And that's it for this

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Speaker 1: week's episode of Decrypted. Thanks for listening, listeners. Is there

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Speaker 1: a way you'd like to get your political news on Facebook?

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Speaker 1: I'm always interested to know how you're interacting with the company.

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Speaker 1: You can send us a message to Decrypted at Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: dot net or find me on Twitter. I'm at Sarah

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00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 1: Fryer and I'm at aki Ito seven. If you enjoy

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Speaker 1: listening to Decrypted, please recommend us to your friends, and

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Speaker 1: if you haven't already, take a moment to rate and

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00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 1: review our show that helps us find new listeners. This

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Speaker 1: episode was produced by Pia Gadkari, Liz Smith, and Magnus Henderson.

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Speaker 1: We'll see you next week, yeah,