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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph

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Speaker 1: Channel one two. I made it up in my heart,

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Speaker 1: in my mind, my soul, and my blood and the

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Speaker 1: oxygen running through my body, but I wanted to kill

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Speaker 1: my mother. Her mother loved her apparently more than anything.

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Speaker 1: Her mother, highly educated, a matriarch, and social standing in

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Speaker 1: her community. Somehow ends up dead, not just dead, but

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Speaker 1: butchered and folded up and stuffed in a suitcase. How

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Speaker 1: did that happen? I'm Nancy Grays, this is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. We're talking about none

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Speaker 1: other than infamous Heather Mac. Let's start at the beginning

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Speaker 1: with me, Paul Chambers, Crime Stories investigative reporter Karen Stark,

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Speaker 1: renowned New York psychologist and joining me as the director

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Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute Cheryl McCullum. Paul, I

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Speaker 1: want to start with not necessarily how mommy ends up dead,

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Speaker 1: folded over into a suitcase, but the upbringing of Heather Mac.

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Speaker 1: What do we know about her upbringing? The daughter Nancy.

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Speaker 1: She is the daughter of she Lavonus Mack and James Mack,

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Speaker 1: who is a jazz composer. James m died in two

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Speaker 1: thousand six during a family vacation in Greece. H He

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Speaker 1: left his wife quite a bit of money, and their

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Speaker 1: relationship since the death of her father, had been strained.

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Speaker 1: H This whole trip to Bally, where the murder occurred,

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Speaker 1: was so that the mother and daughter could become a

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Speaker 1: little bit closer to sort of ease that strain in

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Speaker 1: the relationship. And that apparently the strain and the relationship

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Speaker 1: that's certainly putting perfume on the pig. Sheryl McCollum, Cold

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Speaker 1: Case Institute Director, This mother gave her every single thing

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Speaker 1: you could give a child. She gave her love, she

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Speaker 1: gave her the best education she possibly could, a beautiful home.

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Speaker 1: In fact, the mother's friends begged her, don't take other

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Speaker 1: to Bolly, don't do it, don't spend the money for

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Speaker 1: a five star resort. But she wanted so desperately to

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Speaker 1: be close to her daughter that she did it anyway,

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Speaker 1: even though her best friends said, don't do it. Look

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Speaker 1: at Heather max upbringing Sheryl, what do you see, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: The most startling thing to me is the police had

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Speaker 1: responded to the family home after her father's death eighty

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Speaker 1: times for domestic violence and other issues. This child, Heather

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Speaker 1: clearly has some emotional problems, mental problems, anger problems. Um

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Speaker 1: for the police to respond eighty times to me is extraordinary.

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Speaker 1: Eighty times. What do we know about the home where

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Speaker 1: they lived, How Heather Matt was brought up. She had

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Speaker 1: a silver spoon, Nancy. She wanted for nothing. The home

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Speaker 1: was beautiful, She had the best education. She literally has

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Speaker 1: the world by the tail. But she believed that her

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Speaker 1: mother had something to do with her father's death when

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Speaker 1: she was tarn is what she's claimed. Wait a minute.

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Speaker 1: James Mack, Chicago renowned Chicago composer, died in Athens, Greece,

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Speaker 1: from a pulmonary embolism. He was there on vacation with

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Speaker 1: his wife and daughter. But somehow Matt got it into

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Speaker 1: her head or so. She claims that he was murdered,

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Speaker 1: but that that's not what happened. He died of a

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Speaker 1: pulmonary embolism. Cheryl, this is where I go back to.

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Speaker 1: She clearly has some mental health issues. Oh, don't start

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Speaker 1: with me. There was nothing wrong mentally with this girl.

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Speaker 1: She's evil and she planned the murder for some time

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Speaker 1: before she finally did the murder. Please, I mean did

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Speaker 1: you actually just say, Cheryl, that she had mental issues?

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Speaker 1: Did you say that, hasty? I'll tell you this child,

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Speaker 1: it's that problem sause she was in the third grade, mentally, emotional, violent,

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Speaker 1: She's had lots of problems. There's no questions. Well, like

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Speaker 1: name them. I want to hear your so called mental

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Speaker 1: problems Heather matt had. Well, when I say mental again,

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Speaker 1: anybody that could get it in their head that their

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Speaker 1: mother murdered their father in a hotel room in Greece

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Speaker 1: when they were ten, when they're zero evidence of it.

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Speaker 1: They were a lovely, happy couple. They adored each other.

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Speaker 1: There's zero evidence of it. So for her to get

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Speaker 1: this in her head and think that she needs to

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Speaker 1: avenge her father by murdering her mother in a hotel

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Speaker 1: room in Vali, that is total b asked Cheryl. I

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Speaker 1: can't believe she's pulled wool, even on your eyes, of

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Speaker 1: all people, Karen Stark, throw me a bone for Pete's sake,

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Speaker 1: Karen Stark, This girl, Heather mac that murdered her mother

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Speaker 1: got mad at that five star resort in Bali because

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Speaker 1: the mother didn't like the boyfriend. That's what it was about.

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Speaker 1: She made up this b s about Oh, this was

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Speaker 1: a revenge killing because mom killed dad. That's b s yes,

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Speaker 1: and it doesn't sound well. I thought that she was

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Speaker 1: taking some kind of drugs when I would hear that

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Speaker 1: video the YouTube, because she sounds so out of it. Hello, Hello,

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Speaker 1: A one point three million dollar trust to fund. One

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Speaker 1: point three million dollar trust fund. The parents working their

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Speaker 1: fingers to the bone to make a beautiful home for

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Speaker 1: this girl, the daughter of a Chicago socialite. She'll have

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Speaker 1: von We's Mac is accused of brutally murdering her own

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Speaker 1: mother during a five star Bolly vacation. The mother doing

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Speaker 1: anything to get the approval and love of her daughter,

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Speaker 1: Heather Mac, and what does she do. Murders her mother

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Speaker 1: in a violent rampage and along with her lover, stuffs

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Speaker 1: her mom into a suitcase, leaves it out in front

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Speaker 1: of the hotel, and tries to leave in a taxi.

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Speaker 1: That is not a mental illness, Cheryl McCollum. That is

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Speaker 1: a minion from hell. You're absolutely right. I don't want

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Speaker 1: you to misunderstand what I'm saying. Did you say mental illness? Yes,

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Speaker 1: you did. I did not misunderstand that. Listen to what

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Speaker 1: I'm trying. Oh, dear lord, she premeditated the murder of

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Speaker 1: her mother. There's no question participated in hiding her mother's

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Speaker 1: body in a suitcase and stuffing it in a taxing trunk. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: What I am telling you is there were signs when

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Speaker 1: a bell notices its seeping blood go ahead. Absolutely, when

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Speaker 1: she was ten, when she was eleven, when she was twelve, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: what on earth would have you called the police? Oh,

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Speaker 1: your ten year old twins? How out of control did

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Speaker 1: this girl have to be at such a young age.

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Speaker 1: I'm just telling you there were flags, there were issues.

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Speaker 1: Her mom's friends knew it. I guarantee you this child's

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Speaker 1: teachers knew it. She has had problems for over half

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Speaker 1: of her problems does not equal mental illness. And may

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Speaker 1: I remind you, Cheryl McCollum, courtroom veteran, why am I

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Speaker 1: having to preach to the choir? Means that you're absolutely right,

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Speaker 1: But you're just saying that and you're gritting your teeth

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Speaker 1: because you she's a cold blooded killer. I'm just saying

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Speaker 1: there's a history that people have ignored. She is an absolute,

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Speaker 1: cold bloody killer. She manipulated this boyfriend that got a pregnant.

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Speaker 1: She probably manipulated her mother. She thought she was gonna

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Speaker 1: be able to get away with it by first claiming

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Speaker 1: a gang attack them, then claiming the boyfriend did it

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Speaker 1: while she hit the bathroom. Then can even know I

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Speaker 1: did it myself. Don't hate him, no question about it.

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Speaker 1: She is absolutely where she needs to be, which is present.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever, Sean McCollum, Can I just ask you

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Speaker 1: that I have not? Nancy, Okay, I advise that you

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Speaker 1: go walk through the lobby because when you go through

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Speaker 1: the lobby of a Saint Regis, it smells like some

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Speaker 1: kind of exotic fruit. It smells like you have just

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Speaker 1: died and gone to heaven. Um they were staying and

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Speaker 1: I've only been through the lobby of one Okay, believe me.

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Speaker 1: I was not staying there. Um, somebody else was, and

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Speaker 1: I was going to pick them up and give them

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Speaker 1: a ride down to CNN H O M. And But

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Speaker 1: I still to this day remember that it smelled like

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Speaker 1: some kind of fruit wafting through the air. That is

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Speaker 1: where the mom put up her murderous daughter at the St.

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Speaker 1: Regis resort. They were staying there in Bali, and the

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Speaker 1: state says the lover colluding with the daughter Heather Mac

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Speaker 1: intentionally brings a metal fruit bowl back to the room

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Speaker 1: where Mac and her mom were staying. That he then

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Speaker 1: uses the bowl to beat the mom over the head

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Speaker 1: while Mac stands by cheering. And then Heather Mac folds

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Speaker 1: up her mom's body and stuffs it into a suitcase

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Speaker 1: and sits on the suitcase so the boyfriend can close it.

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, is that what you mean by mental problems?

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Speaker 1: Sitting on your mom's dead bodies so you can zip

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Speaker 1: it into a suitcase. Yeah, she just she's evil. Karen start,

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Speaker 1: help me, please do something with Cheryl McCollum. But you're

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Speaker 1: describing his psychopathic behavior, right. We're talking about someone who

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Speaker 1: is a murderer and has that kind of mentality, and

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Speaker 1: it does emerge when they're young. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: oppositional behavior where they're getting in trouble all the time,

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Speaker 1: and she really fits that profile and it started at

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Speaker 1: a very young age. I think that's what Cheryl is

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Speaker 1: trying to say. Well, I agree with her on that

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Speaker 1: that her outbursts and anger towards her mother started at

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Speaker 1: a very young age. The Chicago woman accused of killing

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Speaker 1: her mother and helping her lover stuff, mommy's body in

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Speaker 1: a suitcase, and an exclusive Bolly resort claims. Quote, I

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Speaker 1: love my mom and I'm innocent. I'm innocent, Cheryl. She

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Speaker 1: said she's innocent. Is that more of the so called

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Speaker 1: mental illness that you're referring to. Yes, in a way,

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Speaker 1: because oh come on, I'm having a field day. Don't

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Speaker 1: reel in it for me, Cheryl. Are part of her manipulation,

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Speaker 1: her now trying to tell people, of course I love

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Speaker 1: my mother, I missed my mother, her showing pictures of

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Speaker 1: herself on social media with her baby in prison. It's

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Speaker 1: all part of this six twisted life that I'm telling

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Speaker 1: you started. I guarantee you by the time she was

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Speaker 1: ten or eleven, there was something so bad wrong. She

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Speaker 1: couldn't conform, she couldn't adapt, she couldn't deal with things

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Speaker 1: like another ten or eleven or twelve year old, and

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Speaker 1: it morphed into what you're seeing right now, an adult

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Speaker 1: that cannot do it either. Okay, I want to tell

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Speaker 1: you a story. Cheryl McCollum, Paul Chambers. Please don't think

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Speaker 1: I forgot about you. I've just been enjoying fighting with

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Speaker 1: Cheryl mccollumb. I never get to argue with her because

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Speaker 1: he normally agree. So, uh, I feel like I'm at

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Speaker 1: a buffet. Paul Chambers with me Crime Stories, investigative reporter

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Speaker 1: Care and Start. Renowned New York psychologists and the director

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Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute Ryl McCollum. You know um.

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Speaker 1: The body of sixty two year old Sheila Wise Mac

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Speaker 1: was found stuffed inside of a suitcase. Now. According to

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Speaker 1: the Chicago Sun Times, she and her late husband had

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Speaker 1: just received a settlement in a lawsuit something to do

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Speaker 1: with Royal Caribbean Cruises for eight hundred thousand dollars and

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Speaker 1: as if they needed the money, they were already extremely wealthy,

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Speaker 1: but Heather Mac was in line to get a multi

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Speaker 1: million dollar estate. Does nobody see that as motive beside me?

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Speaker 1: Paul Chambers, Well, there's some interesting things coming out of

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Speaker 1: this YouTube. Interviewed Nancy. She actually risked doing a more

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Speaker 1: prison time because of her statements made during this video.

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Speaker 1: The Indonesian prosecutors are keenly interested in her comments. You see,

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Speaker 1: she was convicted and received a ten years cent it's

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Speaker 1: for being an accessory, and her boyfriend Schaeffer received eighteen

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Speaker 1: years for actually doing the deed. Now that Heather Max

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Speaker 1: says that she actually committed the murder and that she

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Speaker 1: got her boyfriend involved after the fact. Actually the prosecutors

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Speaker 1: say maybe they can get her more prison time. Now, Wow, wow, wow, wow,

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Speaker 1: her story is changing. Paul Chambers, you are absolutely correct.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to Heather Max speaking. It's posted on

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Speaker 1: YouTube and we managed to call it out with me

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Speaker 1: Karen Stark, psychologist, Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case

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Speaker 1: Research Institute, and Cheryl Um. I'm still trying to take

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Speaker 1: in the fact that you said she had mental illness

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Speaker 1: issues as opposed to being just outright evil angry outbursts

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Speaker 1: at age starting in age ten do not mental illness

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Speaker 1: make and remind me. I want to tell you a

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Speaker 1: story about a child that went to school with the twins,

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Speaker 1: but I'll get back to that in a moment, because

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Speaker 1: i want to hear Heather matt and her own words

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Speaker 1: straight from the devil's mouth. Listen. Okay, So this is

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Speaker 1: a video that I need to make a lot of

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Speaker 1: the times since I've been a kid, I've heard the

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Speaker 1: truth sets you free, the truth sets you free, and

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Speaker 1: I never understood. But I'm Heather mac and I want

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Speaker 1: to be set free. I don't want to live in

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Speaker 1: a lie anymore. When I was ten, my mother killed

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Speaker 1: my father in a hotel in Athens, Greece, m two

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Speaker 1: weeks before I came to Bali. I found out that

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Speaker 1: she killed my father, and I made it up in

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Speaker 1: my heart, in my mind, my soul, in my blood,

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Speaker 1: and the oxygen running through my body. But I wanted

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Speaker 1: to kill my mother Before I go back to Cheryl

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Speaker 1: Kieren and Paul take a listen to Heather mat and

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Speaker 1: her own words. I wanted to kill my mother. First,

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Speaker 1: I asked Tommy Shaffer to help me find somebody to

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Speaker 1: kill my mom for fifty dollars and he said no.

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Speaker 1: After that, I got this whole new savage idea in

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Speaker 1: my head that I wanted to kill her in the

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Speaker 1: hotel room because she had killed my father in a

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Speaker 1: hotel room. The mom wanted to take her only daughter

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Speaker 1: on a five star vacation. Her friends begged her not

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Speaker 1: to do it because her daughter was so contemptuous of

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Speaker 1: her mother, but she wanted desperately to mend their rift

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Speaker 1: into bond with her daughter. Then the daughter jumps up

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Speaker 1: and says she wants to bring her lover with her

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Speaker 1: when the mother was opposed, she wanted time with her daughter.

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Speaker 1: But in the end, well, the next thing we know,

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Speaker 1: there's a headline a Chicago tourist is found dead in Indonesia,

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Speaker 1: and so many people thought, well, okay, you travel abroad,

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Speaker 1: you're in a high crime area. What did you think

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Speaker 1: was gonna happen? Oh no, oh no, let me tell you.

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Speaker 1: At the st REGI just it's not high crime. Okay.

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Speaker 1: As I mentioned earlier, you smell the scent of jasmine

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Speaker 1: and tanzerines waff through the air. No, that's it was

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Speaker 1: not a high crime area, and the perpetrator turned out

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Speaker 1: to be her own daughter. Indonesian police charging a Chicago

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Speaker 1: area couple with murder after the body of Heather Max,

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Speaker 1: sixty two year old mother is found literally stuffed in

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Speaker 1: a suitcase on the resort island of Bali. And when

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Speaker 1: I say stuffed, I mean stuffed. According to evidence, the

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Speaker 1: lover tries to sit the suitcase, and Heather Max sits

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Speaker 1: on her mother's dead body to make it fit. That's right.

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Speaker 1: Heather Mack and her lover, Tommy Schaefer arrested after the

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Speaker 1: body of Sheila von Wei Smack found inside the trunk

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Speaker 1: of a taxi parked in the front of the St.

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Speaker 1: Regis Bolly Resort. Wow, okay, Cheryl McCollum, I want to go.

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Speaker 1: This is what confounds me when you see parents who

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Speaker 1: bend over backward to raise the daughter, to give her

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Speaker 1: the best education, to sacrifice to send her to the

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Speaker 1: best schools and the best training, to prepare them for

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Speaker 1: a future life, prepare for their life after the parents

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Speaker 1: are gone and can no longer support them. They did everything.

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Speaker 1: They basically lived at the top of knob Hill, which

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Speaker 1: is short for snob Hill, and you know, gave her

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Speaker 1: this luxurious, beautiful lifestyle that other people can only dream of,

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Speaker 1: but the mom ends up stuffed in a suitcase. Cheryl

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Speaker 1: Fancy again, in this case did not start in Indonesia.

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Speaker 1: It started when this child was ten years old. She's

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Speaker 1: basically giving you the road map. She's telling you. When

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Speaker 1: it started the depth of her father, everything changed. Whatever

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Speaker 1: she was able to hide or mass or they ignored,

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Speaker 1: came to the surface to a point nobody could ignore

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Speaker 1: it any longer. Her mother was afraid of her. Her

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Speaker 1: mama would have never called the police. Eight Tom her eighties,

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Speaker 1: six times. Karen start listen to this place. April thirteen,

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Speaker 1: daughter locks mom Sheila in her bedroom to make her

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Speaker 1: mom feel bad for having yelled at her ideal at

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Speaker 1: her two. January nineteen, punched mom was closed fist on

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Speaker 1: broken ankle, resulting in more hospitalization. December fourteen, Heather Matt

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Speaker 1: gets angry and broke household items. January thirty, Mac pushes

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Speaker 1: her mom, Sheila, who calls and breaks her arm. February two,

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Speaker 1: thousand eleven, Mac arrested for domestic violence against her own mother, Sheila.

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Speaker 1: April Mac arrested for biting Sheila's are multiple times over

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Speaker 1: the course of three days and pushing her mother in

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Speaker 1: the chest. The mom reports Max said she would quote

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Speaker 1: stop leaving bruises and just hit her in the head.

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Speaker 1: April pushed Sheila during an argument. June threatens mom after

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Speaker 1: Mac was caught sending pornographic photos of herself on the internet.

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to pause on that Mac sending pornographic

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Speaker 1: photos of herself on the internet. And you all know

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Speaker 1: by now it takes a lot to be determined to

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Speaker 1: be pornographic. In nature, even hustler isn't deemed to be pornography,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of a lot places now, Okay threatens mom.

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Speaker 1: Matt quote out of control, throwing picture frames. Mac threatened Sheila,

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Speaker 1: saying I will hurt you. Mac bite Sheila's left bicet.

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Speaker 1: Sheila tells police the large bruise on her wrist was

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Speaker 1: from Matt because she was in a rage and bit

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Speaker 1: me quote from the mom uh rocky relationship. According to

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Speaker 1: Oak Park Police, Sheilla called police eighty six times. Sheila

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Speaker 1: the mom was struggling how to deal with it and

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Speaker 1: how to help Heather, and she would talk a lot

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Speaker 1: about that. Sheila never gave up hope for Heather. You know,

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Speaker 1: Karen Stark, before I had the twins and Saturly it

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Speaker 1: was late in life. I thought I knew all about love, right, Okay,

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Speaker 1: you know that because we've discussed it many many times

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Speaker 1: before and after the twins came. But I can I

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Speaker 1: can tell you this. I don't know of any power

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Speaker 1: on earth stronger than a mother's love. And when I

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Speaker 1: read Sheila Mack quote told police she would not give

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Speaker 1: up hope on Heather, it breaks my heart. Karen Stark,

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Speaker 1: I can get that, Nancy, but this girl is nothing

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Speaker 1: like your twins. And one of the things I keep

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Speaker 1: thinking about, is that this mother loved her daughter so

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Speaker 1: much that I don't know that she really understood that

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Speaker 1: this girl needed to be put away. Somebody had to

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Speaker 1: deal with the fact that her problems were the kind

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Speaker 1: where she had note, she was violent and she had

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Speaker 1: no remorse, and nothing was going to make that go away.

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Speaker 1: There was nothing that could change somebody who can't feel

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Speaker 1: unfortunate lee that was the case with her daughter, and

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Speaker 1: she doesn't seem what does that means? Someone that can't

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Speaker 1: feel what is that? Isn't there a medical term for that?

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Speaker 1: Someone that cannot feel emotion. That's an antisocial personality, someone

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Speaker 1: who is a psychopath. And you can't make somebody have

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Speaker 1: a conscience. So you hear it, you're telling you know

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Speaker 1: about how this happened over and over and over again,

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Speaker 1: and the mother wouldn't give up on her, And I

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Speaker 1: get that, I get that mother's love. Nevertheless, there was

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Speaker 1: nothing that could be done then, nothing that the mother

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Speaker 1: could do, even though she wouldn't give up on her.

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Speaker 1: And the worst thing that she could have done was

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Speaker 1: to decide she's going to go on a trip with

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Speaker 1: the girl who has tried to harm her repeatedly, who

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Speaker 1: bit her. You know, I'm looking right now, Paul Chambers,

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories investigative reporter. I'm looking right now at the

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00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: suitcase the mom is stuffed into and she still stuffed

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Speaker 1: in there when this photos taken, and all on the

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Speaker 1: outside of the suitcase is a blood. It's smeared all

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Speaker 1: over at the suitcase. They had used a bedsheet actually

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Speaker 1: to close the luggage. They couldn't get it completely closed,

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Speaker 1: and so they tied it together. Blood was seeping out

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Speaker 1: of the uh, out of the suitcase, and they had

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Speaker 1: actually had to explain to the lobby staff that it

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Speaker 1: was possibly some makeup that they were seeing. They noticed

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Speaker 1: in the lobby that there was some red stains and

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00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: they just claimed it was makeup. They took it out

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Speaker 1: to the taxi stand. Uh. The Schaefer helped the staff

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Speaker 1: lift the luggage into the taxis trunk because they didn't

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Speaker 1: want to signal that the the luggage was unusually heavy

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Speaker 1: because it had body inside. So uh, it's it's very

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Speaker 1: interesting then, you know. They actually went back inside to

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Speaker 1: ask for their passports and to check out of the hotel,

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Speaker 1: but the staff would not allow them to because they

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Speaker 1: did not own the credit card that was being used

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Speaker 1: to pay for the room. So they said they wanted

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Speaker 1: to actually speak to Sheila. And uh So, once they

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Speaker 1: were thwarted and their passports were in the hotel safe,

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00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: they couldn't even leave the island. What they did was

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Speaker 1: then they uh went out and escaped across the wall

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Speaker 1: of the resort compound, left the complex, tried to check

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Speaker 1: into another hotel. They found a small hotel that they

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Speaker 1: did check into because sea hotels require that you have

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Speaker 1: a passport and that you surrender them while you're staying

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Speaker 1: at the hotel. But they convinced the small hotel that

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Speaker 1: they just you know, their passport was just out of source.

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Speaker 1: They couldn't get it. They checked into the small hotel

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Speaker 1: and about a day later they were found by police there.

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Speaker 1: You know, of course, once police discovered the body because

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00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 1: the suitcase was overflowing with blood at that point, they

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Speaker 1: left the body in the suitcase in the trunk of

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Speaker 1: the taxi at the hotel. This is more of what

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Speaker 1: I've learned about the mother or Sheila. She joined a

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Speaker 1: century old Chicago book club called the Caxton Club. She

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Speaker 1: was in a book club. She had all sorts of interest.

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Speaker 1: She loved Asian literature, and Wagnerian opera. She uh that

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Speaker 1: was in a profile in a publication called The Caxtonian

378
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Speaker 1: all about her, And I say this in in a

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Speaker 1: good way. She was extremely interested in a variety of

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Speaker 1: pursuits and highly highly educated. She fell in love with

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Speaker 1: a highly regarded jazz and classical composer, James L. Matt

382
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Speaker 1: from also from Illinois. He died at age seventy. So

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at the way this child was brought up,

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Speaker 1: literally with a silverspoon in her mouth, Cheryl McCullum. And

385
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: not to say that there is not violence in homes

386
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 1: like that, but I look at eighties six police reports

387
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: where the police were called. Never once would the mother

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00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: allow the daughter to be actually arrested. She didn't want

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Speaker 1: her daughter to go to jail, right. She tried to

390
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: save this child. She did not want her to have

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Speaker 1: a record. She did not want her to go to jail.

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Speaker 1: She did not want her life altered in a negative way.

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Speaker 1: She literally believed she could of her in the being well,

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00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: and Nancy, that's not possible. The mother did not make

395
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: this child this way. She did not do anything to

396
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: cause her to be this way. And there's no way

397
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: to undo it by her. She Love von Wey Smack

398
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: sixty two of the Chicago suburb Oak Park, was discovered

399
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: stuffed in a suitcase in the back of a taxi

400
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 1: at the luxury St. Regis Hotel. Suspicion quickly turned to

401
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: her own daughter, Heather mac and her lover. Now the

402
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: two threatened to commit suicide behind bars. That never happened.

403
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: Listen to Heather Matt in her own words, we were

404
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: going to Balley, so I began to plock. I began

405
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: turning off Tommy's phone, taking Tommy's phone when he was asleep,

406
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: starting in Chicago, taking Tommy's own, and having conversations between

407
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 1: Tommy and myself, texting myself, having fake conversations, and then

408
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 1: deleting them before he could see them. I did that

409
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: because part of me knew that with this plan of

410
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Speaker 1: killing my mom in a hotel, that she might I

411
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: might get arrested. I didn't want to get arrested by

412
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 1: myself in a different country. So I came to Bali

413
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: and I told Tommy that he was going to come

414
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: here for a vacation, call me that he was going

415
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: to come to Bali for a vacation with me and

416
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Speaker 1: my mother, and that she knew about it. In all reality,

417
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: I stole her credit card and brought him a ticket

418
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: without her knowing about it. I trapped him here, and

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00:31:54,960 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: that is what I regret. I don't regret killing my mother. Yeah,

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00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: And as evil as that may sound, that's my reality.

421
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: If somebody killed Stella, I wouldn't regret killing them either.

422
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: But I regret bringing Tommy into it. I regret being selfish.

423
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 1: I regret trapping an innocent person into this because it

424
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: was my battle. It's my mother, it was my father,

425
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 1: it's my mother, it was my father, it was my battle.

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00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: I'm sorry to Tommy Shaeffer for trapping him. Came to Bolly.

427
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: My mom found out I killed her myself, and then

428
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: I told Tommy that if he did not help me

429
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: clean the room and get rid of the body, that

430
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: I would tell the police that he did it. I

431
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: would pay money to get him arrested. So he helped

432
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: me clean it. He ran with me in the court.

433
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: The same thing happened my lawyers and I because of

434
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: the fact that if I get money, if my article

435
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: that I was charged with was not that I'm the

436
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: one who killed her, I'm still entitled to the money

437
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: and therefore I can pay the lawyers. More So, we

438
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: told Tommy together, my lawyers and I that if he

439
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: didn't take the blame in the court, but he would

440
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: get the death penalty. So he lied in the court

441
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 1: because of me. My motivation for doing this was myself.

442
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: It's from inside of me, and it's my battle. It

443
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: wasn't Tommy's. Tommy's an innocent man. And then even more

444
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 1: innocent man is Ryan, Tommy's cousin. I don't even know

445
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: how he got involved in this or why the FBI

446
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: involved him, because he had a certainly nothing to do

447
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: with any of it. He's innocent. I don't know if

448
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 1: they wanted to sell a better story or what the

449
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 1: FBI was on, But Tommy and Ryan are innocent. I'm not.

450
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: You know what's amazing to Karen start New York psychologists

451
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 1: joining us. None of Sheila's friends were shocked at all. Well,

452
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: it sounds like everybody wanted her to not go on

453
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 1: this trip. They pleaded with her. They were very worried

454
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: about what was going to happen, and they were more

455
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 1: aware of what her daughter was really like than she was.

456
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 1: She was in denial. She kept thinking that she could

457
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: find a way some kind of rappressed monk and have

458
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: them connect with each other, and as Cheryl said, just

459
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 1: love her to be a normal person. And that was

460
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: never going to happen, because if you don't have a conscience,

461
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: if you can't love and connect with another person, then

462
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,800
Speaker 1: you don't care what happens to them. You're just fueled

463
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 1: by anger. Take a listen to Heather Max speaking in

464
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 1: her own words, and remember this interview, which were lawyers

465
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: advised against. Maybe the grounds for additional charges. But Tommy

466
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 1: and Ryan are innocent. I'm not. And the only thing

467
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 1: Tommy is not innocent of is hiding the body. And

468
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,479
Speaker 1: the only reason he did that is because of me,

469
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 1: because it was so burning and so deep in my heart,

470
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 1: my plan that I didn't think I involved him, and

471
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,280
Speaker 1: I hurt him and I heard Stella And I'm sorry,

472
00:35:49,320 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 1: Tommy Shaeffer. I'm sorry. I love you, I really love you,

473
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: and if I could go back, I would do it myself.

474
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: And I'm sorry that everyone who ever knew you now

475
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 1: thinks you're a murderer when you're not. I'm sorry you

476
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,320
Speaker 1: won't be able to get a job. I'm sorry everybody

477
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: thinks that you're some crazy killer. This is the truth,

478
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: and whoever is watching this, don't hate Tommy. He's innocent.

479
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 1: I'm not I love you, Tommy. Paul Chambers explained to

480
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: me how her own words can be used against her

481
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 1: to possibly add charges. Well, prosecutors you know, decided to

482
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 1: send her to prison to convict her as an accessory,

483
00:36:54,800 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: and they they they successfully prosecuted her Boyfriendmy Schaeffer as

484
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: the actual doer of the deed. Schaefer is serving an

485
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 1: eighteen year prison sentence, but now in the YouTube video,

486
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 1: Heather says that she truly loves Tommy, that he had

487
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 1: nothing to do with the murder, but only with the

488
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 1: clean up afterwards, and that she regrets getting him involved,

489
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: luring him to Haiti by buying him the airline ticket

490
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: with her mother's credit card, then secretly getting him a

491
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:34,280
Speaker 1: room at the resort, also using her mother's credit card

492
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,280
Speaker 1: UH and bringing him into this whole situation. She says

493
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:43,240
Speaker 1: she is solely responsible. She also says that a cousin,

494
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: Ryan Bibbs, back in Illinois, who was already pleaded guilty

495
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: in the United States to being UH an accessory to

496
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 1: help plot the murder. She says that he is completely innocent,

497
00:37:55,760 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 1: and she's even more astounded that Ryan Bibb has been

498
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 1: brought into this whole mess. Uh So, what she's doing

499
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 1: here is she's she's risking more time in prison because

500
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: the Indonesian prosecutors are saying, hey, uh, you're taking blame

501
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: for the crime, then we're gonna put you away for

502
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 1: actually committing the murder. Uh And she would like in

503
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: an ideal world, she would like for people to to

504
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: know that Schaefer did not commit the crime, that she

505
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:34,879
Speaker 1: actually contrived evidence to bring him in. She says she

506
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,839
Speaker 1: put text she got ahold of his cell phone and

507
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: started texting responses to her text to his phone that

508
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 1: implicated him in the crime. So the evidence that prosecutors

509
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 1: used during the trial, she said, she was totally responsible

510
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: for inventing that. Uh So, anyway, she would like Schaeffer.

511
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 1: She would like people to know that her boyfriend that

512
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: she truly loved. She says, Wait a minute, wait aute

513
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,720
Speaker 1: truly loves. Doesn't she have a female lover behind bars?

514
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: Well she may that may be the case, but but

515
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 1: she's she's sticking up for her boyfriend. Okay, but what

516
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 1: about the trial, Well, what about then she truly loves

517
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: the boyfriend, and why didn't she say all this to

518
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 1: prosecutors then so he wouldn't go to jail Because she's

519
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 1: changed her story, as you pointed out earlier, Nancy, she's

520
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 1: changed her story. Okay, this is what I do know.

521
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on in her hand, but

522
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,879
Speaker 1: I know the coffin that carried her mother, Sheila Mack,

523
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: left Bolly on a Korean Air flight to Chicago O'Hare.

524
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 1: An autopsy revealed that the mom died of asphyxiation. She

525
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: couldn't breathe. She had a broken nosebone resulting from a

526
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:59,839
Speaker 1: blunt blow. She also suffered from a broken neck. What

527
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: learn is that the breaks and the mom's neck and

528
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:08,240
Speaker 1: nose extended to her upper right and left jaw, causing

529
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: respiratory disorder. The mother also had extensive hand wounds. That

530
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 1: suggests to me she was trying to fight off an attack.

531
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCullum. Quite possibly, Nancy. It sounds like she had

532
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: her hands up like a defensive posture. This woman was

533
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 1: beaten to death because violent depiction you could have in

534
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 1: your mind with a bowl that had to handle on it,

535
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: so you start swinging that bowl that has a handle

536
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 1: over it as fast as you can, and you literally

537
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: break somebody's nose and jaw and net. That is terrible

538
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 1: for And again I'm going to tell you there's something

539
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: mentally wrong with this girl. Well, that doesn't mean she's

540
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 1: legally insane, Cheryl. You keep saying there's something wrong. There's

541
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: something wrong with everybody that commits murder. Right, What I'm

542
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,359
Speaker 1: what I'm saying is it has nothing to do with

543
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 1: whether or not she is, you know, legally insane. I

544
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 1: am talking about somebody should have recognized this child needed

545
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 1: institutionalized help by the time she was fourteen. That's well,

546
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 1: she's getting it now. The institution is jail, and that's

547
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 1: where she needs to be. When you keep saying there's

548
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: something wrong with her, it makes me think that you're

549
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: suggesting she has a legal insanity defense. She planned this thing,

550
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: and the evidence after the murder can be taken into account.

551
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: Stuffing your mom's body in the suitcase and running to

552
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 1: the next luxury hotel with your lover does not suggest

553
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: to me a mental illness rising to the level of insanity.

554
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 1: And I want you to know one more, one more

555
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:57,720
Speaker 1: thing about the autopsy, there was blood aspiration, which means

556
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:02,359
Speaker 1: the mom was stay ending when she was beaten, and

557
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 1: as she suffocated from lack of oxygen because of the

558
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 1: mass influx of blood into her lungs from the broken

559
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 1: nose bone that extended to both sides of her jaw,

560
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 1: she drowned on her own blood. Cheryl absolutely, Nancy. The

561
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 1: legal insanity defense means you don't know right from wrong.

562
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 1: This girl absolutely knows what she did was wrong. She

563
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: tried to cover it up months before the plane and

564
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: she got rid of tech messages, she changed flight information,

565
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: she got the hotel room books for the boyfriend. She

566
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 1: brought her own accessory to the crime. She knew what

567
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,320
Speaker 1: she was doing wrong. They hid the body in the suitcase.

568
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: They hid it in the trunk of a taxi. Then

569
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 1: they fled and they tried to leave the island and

570
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 1: could not. No question, She's where she needs to be,

571
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 1: in prison. I'm just saying, you follow this road map.

572
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: She should have never been out to be able to

573
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 1: do She should have been on in g V jail.

574
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 1: Yea at the get go the first time she hit

575
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 1: her mother and broke a bone or bit her. Yeah,

576
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,720
Speaker 1: she should have gone her framework should have been straight

577
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:22,280
Speaker 1: and juvenile jail two. Karen Stark, I do not believe

578
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 1: one word this woman says. But I want you to listen,

579
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 1: Karen along with me, to Heather Matt in her own words,

580
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: this is just spewing lies. But listen anyway, So I

581
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: came to Bally and I told Tommy that he was

582
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 1: going to come here for a vacation. Well, Tommy that

583
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,320
Speaker 1: he was going to come to Bali for a vacation

584
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: with me and my mother, and that she knew about it.

585
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,399
Speaker 1: In our reality, I stole her credit card and brought

586
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: him a ticket without her knowing about it. I trapped

587
00:43:54,600 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 1: him here, and that is what I regret. I don't

588
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: regret killing my mother, and as evil as that may sound,

589
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 1: that's my reality. If somebody killed Stilla, I wouldn't regret

590
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 1: killing them either. But I regret bringing Tommy into it.

591
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 1: I regret being selfish. I regret trumping an innocent person

592
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 1: into this because it was my battle. It's my mother,

593
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 1: it was my father. Karen, start, what do you make

594
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: of it? I'll tell you what's most chilling about it, Nancy,

595
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: is that, if you listen, there is absolutely no remorse

596
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 1: about her mother being killed. In a very very calm voice.

597
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 1: She's trying to rescue her boyfriend and comes up with

598
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:53,359
Speaker 1: this ridiculous story about her mom killing her father, and

599
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 1: you do not hear the least bit of regret. She's crying,

600
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: but not for her moup. She's crying for her boyfriend.

601
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 1: Wait wait now to see the charges are going to

602
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 1: be altered in any way. Take one more. Listen to

603
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 1: Heather mac Nancy. This is Heather mac speaking to Crime

604
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 1: Watch Daily from jail. And I just just hugging her

605
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: and I wouldn't want to go. And you just said,

606
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: now we have to run, And I said, you were

607
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 1: in us. I'm not leaving my mother here. I will

608
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 1: not leave her here. They said, what do you want

609
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 1: to do? I said, I want to bring her, he said,

610
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: and what I said in a suitcase. I'm not leaving

611
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: her here. I just didn't want to what you find

612
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,879
Speaker 1: with her. I mean, I don't know I was at

613
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 1: that moment, but Heather says, she knows precisely where she

614
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: is now most of the time, especially at night. I'm crying,

615
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: especially at night. Can I ask you why you cry

616
00:45:54,120 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 1: at not? I I missed my mother. Yeah, I missed

617
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: my mother, Nancy Grace Crime Stories, signing off goodbye friend. Yeah,