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Speaker 1: The couples therapist, coach and author Carolyn Sharpe is here.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 1: Carolyn, Hey, Kelly, how are you. I'm doing well. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for being here. You and I were

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Speaker 1: just talking. You've written this amazing book for couples and

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Speaker 1: it's called Fired Up, and we're going to get to

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Speaker 1: all of that. But I loved the sentiment you just

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Speaker 1: said about why you even wanted to write this book,

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Speaker 1: because I completely agree with you. So can you repeat

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Speaker 1: that for the listeners?

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Speaker 2: Sure? I will try to do my best at repeating

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Speaker 2: what I said. So you know, part of my hope

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Speaker 2: and dream for this book is that it helped people

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Speaker 2: and help the world, because they think that a lot

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Speaker 2: of what is wrong in the world is a relationship problem.

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Speaker 2: Our inability to connect with others past our differences, to

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Speaker 2: find common ground, to really understand each other, I think

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Speaker 2: is really lacking. So I really hope and dream that

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Speaker 2: it can be of service to the world.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we're seeing that on such a big scale,

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Speaker 1: I think across the board, and everyone can probably understand

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Speaker 1: where we're coming from with that statement. But I agree

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Speaker 1: with you that it starts with the small relationships or

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Speaker 1: the day to day relationships. And that's what this book

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Speaker 1: is all about. Fired Up is about what to do

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Speaker 1: when your relationship gets stale. And I can't tell you.

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Speaker 1: I'm in my forties, so I can't tell you the

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Speaker 1: amount of conversation that I have with friends who have

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Speaker 1: been in long term relationships. I think I'm kind of

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Speaker 1: at that age where people are going, whoam I've been

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Speaker 1: in this relationship for a really long time. I love

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Speaker 1: this person, I have a family with this person, but

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Speaker 1: it is stale. So can you talk through why does

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Speaker 1: a relationship get stale?

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Speaker 2: A relationship gets stale because we take our relationships for granted.

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Speaker 2: We think, and you know, this is maybe the fault

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Speaker 2: of Hollywood movies and fairy tales that once you meet

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Speaker 2: your prince or princess charming, things are good. You don't

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Speaker 2: need to work at it, and if it's meant to be,

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Speaker 2: it should be easy, and all of these sorts of ideas.

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Speaker 2: And so we get married or we make a commitment

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Speaker 2: to someone and then we sort of check that off

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Speaker 2: of the lists, like, all right, that area of my

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Speaker 2: life it's taken care of. I can focus on my career,

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Speaker 2: I can focus on my family, whatever it is, and

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Speaker 2: we just let our relationship go on autopilot, and relationships,

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Speaker 2: like anything else that matters to us, takes work, you know.

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Speaker 2: The thing worth doing is something we have to put

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Speaker 2: work into. And people are less intentional with their relationships

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Speaker 2: than they are with other areas of their life, and

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Speaker 2: so that's why it grows stale. We sort of take

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Speaker 2: our eye off the ball, to use a sports metaphor,

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Speaker 2: which I'm the least sporty person in terms of you know,

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Speaker 2: professional sports. But we take our off the ball and

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Speaker 2: focus on other things, and then a relationship goes to sleep.

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Speaker 1: Right you say in the book, you know life is

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Speaker 1: full of constant stress, and it is so we're being

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Speaker 1: pulled in a million different directions all the time, especially

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Speaker 1: nowadays you can just even get on your phone and

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Speaker 1: be pulled into a million different directions. And it's so

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Speaker 1: interesting to me though, because it's we complain about it

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Speaker 1: being stale, but it's almost as if the place that

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Speaker 1: we feel the safest, like you said, is the place

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Speaker 1: that we kind of disregard the most. Why does our

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Speaker 1: brain do that?

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Speaker 2: Well? I think it is an aspect of creating that

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Speaker 2: safety and knowing, okay, I've got my partner here, They're

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Speaker 2: gonna be here no matter what. We make that promise,

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Speaker 2: And so we take that promise at face value, like

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Speaker 2: it's it's good here, and so I can focus my

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Speaker 2: energy on other things. And and I say this to

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Speaker 2: my couples who have kids. You know, the kids rage

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Speaker 2: against us because they feel safe here. We've created a

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Speaker 2: capaner or they can rage against us. So it is

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Speaker 2: a beautiful thing in a way that our partner knows

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Speaker 2: that they can count on us to always be there.

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Speaker 2: But we need to not use that, you know, just

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Speaker 2: like we teach our kids. You know, just because I'm

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Speaker 2: safe doesn't mean you get to talk to me like that.

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Speaker 2: Just because our relationship is we have set the intention,

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Speaker 2: we have made the commitment to be together for the

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Speaker 2: rest of our lives, doesn't mean we can just you know,

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Speaker 2: take it for granted. Take it. I was about to

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Speaker 2: use another metaphor, take the hands off the wheel and

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Speaker 2: let it drive itself. I'm just going to use seven

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Speaker 2: different metaphors, all of it. I metaphor doesn't mean we

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Speaker 2: should stop paying attention to it. But you know, the

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Speaker 2: other reason I think that we do that is relationships

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Speaker 2: are hard. I think that they're the hardest thing we

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Speaker 2: do as adults. And you know, we're living as mirrors

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Speaker 2: of each other. We're seeing each other and living with

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Speaker 2: each other and seeing each other's flaws and having our

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Speaker 2: flaws reflected back to us. And that's uncomfortable, in particular

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Speaker 2: in the pandemic when we were in lockdown for as

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Speaker 2: long as we were couples. We're spending way too much

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Speaker 2: time together and we're avoiding all the hard conversations. And

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Speaker 2: I think that really became a habit where we're not

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Speaker 2: going to talk about the fact that you're on my nerves.

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Speaker 2: We're just going to turn to our phones and look

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Speaker 2: at TikTok for the time being. Whatever it becomes, we'll see,

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Speaker 2: we'll see. And it just became easier. It became a

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Speaker 2: new habit of avoiding having the real conversations that we

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Speaker 2: need to take care of our relationship.

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Speaker 1: God, there's so many things in that statement than the

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Speaker 1: last paragraph that you just said that I want to

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Speaker 1: touch on. But you'd said one thing about our partners

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Speaker 1: on our nerves. Is there something more to understanding why

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Speaker 1: your partner is on your nerves?

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Speaker 2: Well, there's always more to understand, always, always, And the

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Speaker 2: more we understand in our relationship, the deeper and richer

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Speaker 2: they are. So you know that habit that is annoying.

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Speaker 2: This is a fun problems that I go through with couples,

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Speaker 2: a little bit of a game that I play of

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Speaker 2: understanding why does it drive my partner crazy that I

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Speaker 2: hang the toilet paper one way and they hang it

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Speaker 2: the other way? What is that really about? And that's

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Speaker 2: such a silly example.

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Speaker 1: No, it's the perfect example because my boyfriend and I

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Speaker 1: have been in this exact archident. That's why I laughing

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Speaker 1: this second you said it. It is literally the thing

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Speaker 1: that we have been talking about the most. It's a

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Speaker 1: kind of a joke between us. But those are the

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Speaker 1: kind of things that come up, right, the main absolutelynny things.

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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, And it's you know, when I do presentations

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Speaker 2: out in the community, I will get volunteers, whether it's

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Speaker 2: an actual couple or two strangers or two colleagues, will

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Speaker 2: come up with something stupid like that, so or something

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Speaker 2: small like that and have them act that out, and

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Speaker 2: always the richness of what's underneath that of because there's

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Speaker 2: two levels of communication, there's content and process, and content

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Speaker 2: is don't hang it this way, hang it that way.

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Speaker 2: That's the facts or the data of the situation process

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Speaker 2: is the deeper level of meaning, what it means to

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Speaker 2: you when I hang it the way I do, or

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Speaker 2: what you know, so on and so forth, And getting

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Speaker 2: to that meaning provides so much richness to the relationship.

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Speaker 2: To understand that when I hang it the way you

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Speaker 2: don't like it tells it means to you that I'm

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Speaker 2: not listening to you, that I don't value you, that

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Speaker 2: what's important to you isn't important to me. What you're

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Speaker 2: making that meaning out of me hanging the toilet paper

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Speaker 2: in the way I am, Well, yeah, because otherwise, if

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Speaker 2: it didn't mean something to you, you wouldn't get annoyed,

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Speaker 2: you wouldn't get upset. And so helping couples focus their

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Speaker 2: energy to why does this matter in the first place

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Speaker 2: is like a mind blowing experience for them. And this

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Speaker 2: can happen in our romantic relationships, it can happen in

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Speaker 2: our friendships with our siblings, whoever. And that's what I'm

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Speaker 2: you know, that's the way I'm trying to help people

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Speaker 2: in the world is to understand it, understand that person

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Speaker 2: that you have these great differences with that make you

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Speaker 2: so mad. If you could understand what it means to

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Speaker 2: that person, maybe you would help you connect with them.

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Speaker 2: You don't have to be best friends, you don't have

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Speaker 2: to agree, but you can connect in a way where

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Speaker 2: now you can be polite, you can be kind, you

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Speaker 2: could be compassionate to this person that has these differences.

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Speaker 2: But that is so hard right now, and I think

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Speaker 2: we're all losing as a result. Yeah, I did go

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Speaker 2: off on a tangenty No, that's.

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Speaker 1: I think that's all very, very important, And I was

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Speaker 1: just thinking as you were talking. I always say that

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Speaker 1: relationships are my greatest teachers, and I think that's true

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Speaker 1: for most of us if we're actually paying attention. But

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Speaker 1: the reason I say that they're they're my greatest teachers

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Speaker 1: is not because of necessarily what I learn about the

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Speaker 1: other person, but it's what I learned about me. And

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Speaker 1: I think that it's so important and it's a huge

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Speaker 1: piece that we miss and I think this is what

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Speaker 1: the book really touches on such a great way. But

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Speaker 1: whatever is coming up, like if I am bothered, it's

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Speaker 1: about me. That was the biggest statement I've had to

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Speaker 1: learn over the years. That's going Wait, if the toilet

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Speaker 1: paper roll is annoying me so much. Why the whys

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Speaker 1: behind it are so important? And that's what this book

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Speaker 1: really really touches on, and I think that is the

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Speaker 1: most helpful tool in a relationship ever. So you give

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Speaker 1: this whole four step process into really diving into the whys.

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Speaker 1: So I kind of want to talk through a little

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Speaker 1: bit of that without giving the book away fully for

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Speaker 1: the listeners though, to understand, let's get into this first step,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of it is understanding you, So can

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Speaker 1: you talk through a little bit about that.

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Speaker 2: Well, the first step in this is that foundational piece

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Speaker 2: of understanding the why of being in the relationship in

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Speaker 2: the first place. What is the purpose of us being together,

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Speaker 2: of us being friends or us being partners? Why? And

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Speaker 2: couples default too, it's love. You know, we're together for love,

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Speaker 2: and that's fantastic and that's beautiful. But anyone that's been

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Speaker 2: in a relationship that's lasted more than even a few

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Speaker 2: months knows that that love feeling, that love sentiment isn't constant.

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Speaker 2: If you live with another person, you especially have insight

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Speaker 2: into this that you love your partner, but you can

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Speaker 2: also hate your partner at the same time. So you

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Speaker 2: need a purpose beyond love to get you through those

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Speaker 2: hard moments when you want to run out the door

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Speaker 2: or throttle them or whatever. Not talking literally obviously, but

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Speaker 2: you know, through those moments you need to have that purpose,

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Speaker 2: that understanding of why are we together? What is what

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Speaker 2: are we doing here together? That is beyond just being

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Speaker 2: in love with each other. So that's the first part

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Speaker 2: that they think is so critical.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so the foundation of the why of the whole

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Speaker 1: relationship in general on you's had some such an important

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Speaker 1: thing about those those butterfly feelings or whatever. Like we all,

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Speaker 1: if you've been in any sort of long term relationship,

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Speaker 1: you know that those are the things that die off,

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Speaker 1: which then in turn makes the relationship feel stale. So

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Speaker 1: if we're realizing that that is where we are, and

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Speaker 1: we're getting to the place of like we're really stale,

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Speaker 1: the foundation feels rocky, is it actually rocky or do

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Speaker 1: we how do we know that? Like, how do we

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Speaker 1: know if the relationship is not serving us anymore or

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Speaker 1: that it's just stale.

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Speaker 2: The thing that I tell couples, any problem, any rockiness,

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Speaker 2: can be fixed in a relationship as long as it's

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Speaker 2: not abuse, as long as both people want it. So

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Speaker 2: if it's rocky, you can make it not rocky again.

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Speaker 2: If you both choose to, it stops serving you. If

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Speaker 2: either one or both of you have you decided I

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Speaker 2: don't want this anymore, that's the place where I can't

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Speaker 2: help anybody, and couples can't really be helped. If you've

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Speaker 2: decided to leave the relationship, you know, physically or psychically mentally,

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Speaker 2: then the relationship is over. It's really a decision that

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Speaker 2: you make where depth and growth comes from recommitting, choosing

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Speaker 2: again to reinvest in the relationship and decide to figure

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Speaker 2: out why are we having this rockiness, why are we

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Speaker 2: having this problem, why is this challenge here? And certainly again,

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Speaker 2: if there is abuse happening in the relationship, physical emotional,

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Speaker 2: then the relationship obviously needs to end. But beyond that

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Speaker 2: kind of mistreatment, real intentional mistreatment, anything can be fixed

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Speaker 2: as long as both people are invested in getting to

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Speaker 2: the other side and doing the work to get there.

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Speaker 1: When you're doing therapy, I know you've done couples therapy

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Speaker 1: for years and coaching, how often are you seeing people

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Speaker 1: just come in and want to fight each other versus

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Speaker 1: actually get to the why.

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Speaker 2: I don't think I see people that want to fight

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Speaker 2: person that that is their intention of I'm gonna I

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Speaker 2: just want to fight with you. If they are seemingly

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Speaker 2: wanting to fight, it's because they're scared where they don't

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Speaker 2: feel safe. And I'm differentiating between that in the sense

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Speaker 2: that I don't feel safe to be myself, and so

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Speaker 2: I need to keep this armor up. I need to

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Speaker 2: keep focusing on what you're saying or how you're saying it.

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Speaker 2: I need to keep being loud or aggressive. And I

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Speaker 2: just mean in terms of tone or energy, not physical.

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Speaker 2: It's because I don't feel safe or because I'm scared.

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Speaker 2: If I let that guard down, I'm gonna be lost,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to be left, I'm going to be vulnerable,

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Speaker 2: or all that sort of stuff, which is a similar

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Speaker 2: vibe or a similar tone to not feeling safe, but

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Speaker 2: a little bit a little bit different.

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Speaker 1: So this is where the next step would come in

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Speaker 1: of understanding all of these needs and all of these

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Speaker 1: things that are coming up within us. And I want

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Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about that because I feel

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Speaker 1: like you can go on your own journey of self exploration,

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Speaker 1: but until you get into a relationship, I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: you can go as deep like you can only get

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Speaker 1: so far by yourself. I guess it's my point. And

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Speaker 1: then you get into a relationship and like you mentioned earlier,

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Speaker 1: everything is mirrored back to us, whether that's the good

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Speaker 1: parts of us or the things that were coming up

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Speaker 1: feeling really defensive about like you just mentioned, where we

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Speaker 1: might not be feeling safe, and so we go into

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Speaker 1: attack or defend mode. So how important is it to

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Speaker 1: understand your own shit, your own background, your own like

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Speaker 1: childhood wounding and all of those pieces.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think it's critically important. I think together in

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Speaker 2: a relationship, you want to create understanding for both of you.

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Speaker 2: Usually the sort of safest way in is to have

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Speaker 2: partners focus on understanding their partner and then their partner

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Speaker 2: understands them, and by that you create a create an

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Speaker 2: environment of deep understanding and acceptance. That's what you're trying

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Speaker 2: to get to is accepting each other as people, not

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Speaker 2: accepting every annoying behavior or every difficult behavior, but accepting

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Speaker 2: the person underneath that and accepting that you know, really

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Speaker 2: every behavior has a cause, has that why of you know,

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Speaker 2: you're hanging the toilet paper for this reason, or you're

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Speaker 2: yelling for this other reason, or you're walking out of

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Speaker 2: the room for this third reason, and understanding that why

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Speaker 2: helps your partner know, Okay, I see what you're trying

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Speaker 2: to do, and let's together figure out a different way

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Speaker 2: to get that need met. So I think it's critically important,

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Speaker 2: and I think you spoke to it so beautifully. You know.

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Speaker 2: I've had people who've left a relationship and then they

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Speaker 2: come in to me as a therapist and they say,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to be single for a while because I

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Speaker 2: want to learn how to be in relationship, and I

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Speaker 2: chuckle lovingly, because you can't learn how to be in

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Speaker 2: a relationship by yourself. We learn relationships through relationships. That's

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Speaker 2: how it's done. That's how we started as infants, learning

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Speaker 2: about relationships from the relationships we had with our caregivers

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Speaker 2: and between our caregivers and in our family in general.

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Speaker 2: So through this relationship we learn the most about each other.

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Speaker 2: It is through those reflections and through those deep conversations

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Speaker 2: that we really learn about our shit. And it's through

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Speaker 2: creating that safety with each other to understand, Okay, this

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Speaker 2: is hard, this is messy, this makes me uncomfortable, but

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Speaker 2: we're committed to really creating a deep rich conversation, a

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Speaker 2: deep rich environment, and it's in that that you have

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Speaker 2: the most vibrant relationship when you have that understanding and

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Speaker 2: that acceptance.

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Speaker 1: This whole podcast is basically me talking through different two

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Speaker 1: different facilitators, different therapists, a sort of person doing any

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Speaker 1: sort of soul seeking. And the reason I even got

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Speaker 1: on that journey is because my relationships weren't working. And

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Speaker 1: so when I'm having conversations sometimes outside of this podcast,

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Speaker 1: with friends, just people I meet, whatever, and there isn't

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Speaker 1: this understanding of that connection where it's like, if I

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Speaker 1: don't learn about me and learn how to communicate about me,

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Speaker 1: it will manifest in my relationships. And for me, it

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Speaker 1: was about the relationships I was choosing. It was how

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Speaker 1: I was interacting in them. Can you explain that to

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Speaker 1: listeners in a way or is digestible because sometimes I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure I'm communicating it properly.

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Speaker 2: Sure? Well, you know what you're speaking to is really

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Speaker 2: about attachment theory, and it's about an attachment theory to

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Speaker 2: be really simplistic, it's how we are trained to be

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Speaker 2: a relationship. We attached to our caregivers, to our parents.

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Speaker 2: We are dependent on them and Through that relationship, we

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Speaker 2: learn about the world and what's safe to do, what's

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Speaker 2: not safe to do, how we're supposed to feel, how

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Speaker 2: we're supposed to express or not express our feelings. We

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Speaker 2: are trained and given a style of relating based on

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Speaker 2: what we are taught is the right way to be,

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Speaker 2: the wrong way to be, the safe way to be,

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Speaker 2: the unsafe way to be. And then when we are adults,

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Speaker 2: we create new attachments somewhat with our friends, although those

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Speaker 2: are really sort of different because there isn't as much

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Speaker 2: writing on them as our our partnerships, our romantic partnerships.

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Speaker 2: And so in that choosing we are looking for and

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Speaker 2: then there's some research here that is super fascinating. When

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Speaker 2: we are sort of hooking up quote unquote, our brain

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Speaker 2: is looking for genetic difference because hooking up is about

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Speaker 2: spreading genetic seeds, so to speak.

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Speaker 1: So exciting to us.

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Speaker 2: That's why it's so exciting, because we are you know,

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Speaker 2: we've got all the passion, we've got all that stuff.

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Speaker 2: Because as a species, we're looking to spread, diversify the

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Speaker 2: genetic makeup of the species, because a healthy species is

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Speaker 2: a diverse species, because you know, cousins having sex with cousins.

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Speaker 2: You're going to have someone that's going to have some

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Speaker 2: pretty significant genetic challenges because there isn't enough to diversity

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Speaker 2: in that species. Well, you know, we're not supposed to

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Speaker 2: hook up with our brothers. Gross sorry, Adie, that's my

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Speaker 2: brother's name anyway. And so when we're hooking up, we're

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Speaker 2: looking for genetic difference. But then flip to six to

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Speaker 2: eighteen months later, which is when we make the switch

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Speaker 2: to pair bonding or mating for life, our brain switches

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Speaker 2: to look for genetic stimilarity, what feels and looks like

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Speaker 2: what we are used to. So then we're looking for

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Speaker 2: what we came to understand was normal in relationship. So

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Speaker 2: you would look for the dynamics. And this is where

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Speaker 2: the expression I married my mother or I married my

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Speaker 2: father's sort of thing comes from. Although it's not that

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Speaker 2: linear a connection. It's more about the dynamic you experienced

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Speaker 2: growing up. So if you grew up in a family

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Speaker 2: where performance was the norm, like you had to perform

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Speaker 2: and be the best in order to get acknowledgment, that's

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Speaker 2: what you would choose. In a dynamic in your relationship

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Speaker 2: or a high conflict environment where everybody you know, like

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Speaker 2: I grew up in New York State and sarcasm and direct,

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Speaker 2: blunt directness was the thing. And then I married someone

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Speaker 2: from southern California, where directness not the thing, and we

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Speaker 2: had to navigate that because my directness was a little

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Speaker 2: much for him. So on and so forth. But we

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Speaker 2: reenact the dynamic that we experience in childhood of you know,

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Speaker 2: my husband feeling criticized or like he had to perform,

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Speaker 2: and me feeling like I had to take care of myself.

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Speaker 2: You know, all of these things become re enacted, and

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Speaker 2: so that's why people choose you feel like they're you know,

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Speaker 2: they choose badly. You don't choose badly. You choose a

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Speaker 2: dynamic that is familiar and through in each relationship, getting

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Speaker 2: healthier working through with that partner. Alright, I think I'm

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Speaker 2: re enacting something helped me not do that anymore. You

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Speaker 2: evolve past that such that you're no longer looking for that.

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Speaker 1: I love that explanation because I used to say my

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Speaker 1: picker is broken, and I quickly have realized that doesn't

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Speaker 1: help me at all to say it that way, And actually,

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Speaker 1: my picker is doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing.

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Speaker 1: For me to heal. So it's it's literally picking the

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Speaker 1: person that's going to trigger me the most so that

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Speaker 1: I finally address what is still unhealed within me yep,

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Speaker 1: which was like mind blowing to realize, even though it

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Speaker 1: seems really simple. I thought, oh oh, And the more

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Speaker 1: I talk to myself in the way of like my

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Speaker 1: picker is broken, the worse it gets for me because

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Speaker 1: it's only making a shot at my self esteem and

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Speaker 1: making me feel like I'm so messed up beyond repair

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Speaker 1: that I shouldn't even be in relationships, Like your patients

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Speaker 1: said or your clients said, yeah, like I'm going to

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Speaker 1: go out and fix myself or something like we're something

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Speaker 1: to be fixed. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Right, And that to that question earlier of you know,

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Speaker 2: is there a point that the rockiness indicates that we

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Speaker 2: should move on? Yeah, we will regulate. Tell couples you

399
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Speaker 2: picked each other for a reason, right, because there's opportunity

400
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Speaker 2: for heal to heal. If you choose to leave this relationship,

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Speaker 2: chances are you're going to have this exact same dynamic

402
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Speaker 2: in your next relationship. And that's that's what happens over

403
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Speaker 2: and over and over again. Of like, oh, few, I'm

404
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Speaker 2: out of that relationship, I don't have to deal with addiction,

405
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Speaker 2: or I don't have to deal with yelling anymore, or

406
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Speaker 2: a high conflict, and then it shows up in the

407
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Speaker 2: next relationship. It looks a little different, but it's usually

408
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 2: the same experience in relationship of not feeling safe, not

409
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Speaker 2: feeling good enough, not feeling lovable, not feeling wanted, whatever

410
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Speaker 2: it is that you felt in that previous relationship. Unless

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Speaker 2: you figured out how to not do that anymore, chances

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Speaker 2: are it's going to come alive again for next relationship.

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Speaker 1: Right And for me, it was always actually a worse

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Speaker 1: like or bigger. The magnitude of how it was showing

415
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Speaker 1: up was bigger because it was trying to get my attention,

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Speaker 1: Like yes, the things inside of me were like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we gotta really work this stuff out. It's time. And

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Speaker 1: so then I would pick someone else who, like you said,

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Speaker 1: looked very All of my partners have looked so different

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Speaker 1: on the outside. Like if you looked at my partners

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Speaker 1: from a physical perspective, you would say, she doesn't have

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Speaker 1: a type, but I have a type, or I had

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Speaker 1: a type, you know. And so until I was ready

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Speaker 1: to do the bigger healing, it was going to keep

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Speaker 1: showing up. I do think it's important. I know you

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Speaker 1: touched on this earlier. For me, I'm in a relationship

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Speaker 1: now with a partner who wants to do the work

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Speaker 1: himself and with me, and so it's been a beautiful experience.

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Speaker 1: I think we met each other at a time in

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Speaker 1: both of our lives where we were like, okay, jigs up,

431
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Speaker 1: like this is happening. We've done enough of our own

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Speaker 1: healing to know that there is this about me that

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Speaker 1: is ready to be worked out and so we can

434
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 1: work together. But then I've been in relationships in the

435
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 1: past where it was never going to be that because

436
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: the other person wasn't in that space. So it is

437
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 1: very important. I just want to say that for the listeners,

438
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,199
Speaker 1: like and you can't force someone to be ready unless

439
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 1: they they want to themselves. I spent many years trying.

440
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to save you guys, the time that

441
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 1: I wasted. It felt like, yep, yep.

442
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 2: There's only one person we can change, and that's ourselves.

443
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,880
Speaker 2: And the amount of time couples waste trying to get

444
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 2: their partner to function more like themselves or force them

445
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,479
Speaker 2: to do the work. You can't do that. Mel Robbins

446
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 2: talks about this beautifully, you know, in the sort of

447
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 2: let them her new book, Let Them, you know, let

448
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,160
Speaker 2: your partner be your part partner. It's critically important. That's

449
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 2: that acceptance piece. We can inspire our partner toward growth.

450
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 2: We can't force or arm wrestle them into it. It

451
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:14,439
Speaker 2: is about recognizing okay, And usually this is true. I

452
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 2: haven't made it safe for my partner to want to

453
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 2: do the work with me because I'm implying, because usually

454
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 2: it's a you would really benefit from therapy, which translates

455
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 2: to the partner as my partner thinks I'm broken, My

456
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 2: partner thinks I'm a problem, and then they get defensive,

457
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 2: and then they don't feel invited and they don't feel accepted.

458
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 2: They feel shamed, and who feels shamed and then wants

459
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 2: to go open that up versus an invitation of I

460
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 2: really want to have a richer relationship with you. I

461
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 2: really feel like I could learn a lot through you.

462
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 2: Let's take on this journey together. That sounds different from

463
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,679
Speaker 2: we need therapy and you have to do this with me,

464
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 2: or you need this program, or you need to read

465
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 2: this book. I don't recommend that for anybody.

466
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: I've done all of those.

467
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, so earlier. Yeah, no, it never does, no, never is.

468
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 1: The second piece of that one for me was always

469
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: when people show you who you are, believe them, because

470
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 1: I would be like, yeah, I don't really know, like

471
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 1: you know, I think maybe if we just have one

472
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 1: conversation that hits right, this person won't feel that way

473
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 1: or they'll change or whatever. And I was trying to

474
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: actually change who the person was. And that's no, it's

475
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 1: really again that was about me and my own stuff.

476
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: When you get into the next step, one of the

477
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 1: main pieces that I just genuinely think is so massively

478
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 1: important repair, so conflict and repair and relationships. So we're

479
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: getting so in the book, like if we're walking through

480
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: the steps a little bit, you decide what you know,

481
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: the foundation of the relationship comes up, why are we

482
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 1: in this? Then you really get to know your own stuff,

483
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,239
Speaker 1: how that's impacting your relationship. Then you get to this

484
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 1: piece that's like, okay, well how do we work together?

485
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: And I don't think this has talked about enough in

486
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 1: our society, the importance of repair. The more I've learned

487
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 1: about it, the more I've experienced it, the more I'm like,

488
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 1: this is the most crucial piece to all of my

489
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 1: relationships ever, Like it is literally it, it's the thing.

490
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 1: So what does repair look like? Because I just genuinely

491
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,479
Speaker 1: don't think anyone even knows conflict and to repair.

492
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 2: Yep. Well, And the piece that I think is so

493
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 2: crucial to mention is we don't learn from everything going well.

494
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 2: We don't learn from comfort and things being perfect. We

495
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 2: learned from mistakes and failures. And mistakes and failures are

496
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 2: not what harm relationships. I mean, certainly, of course, there

497
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 2: are certain mistakes that are unequivocally harmful, but it is

498
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 2: not really the mistakes that harm a relationship. It's the

499
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 2: absence of repair. Because repair says to you, you're more

500
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,679
Speaker 2: important to me than being right, You're more important to

501
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 2: me than being infallible. I want you to feel safe,

502
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,479
Speaker 2: and so I'm going to take accountability and I'm going

503
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 2: to make sure you're oh okay as a result of

504
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 2: me doing that dumb thing, which we're all human. We

505
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 2: all do dumb shit every day. You know, we're bumbling

506
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 2: around through life and we're you know, stepping on each

507
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 2: other's toes all over the place when we share life together.

508
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 2: So it's not the mistakes that matter, it's the repair.

509
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 2: And repair is about and you know, I go through

510
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 2: and it's my editor's favorite part, the non repairs, the

511
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 2: non apologies that exist for us. But repair is about

512
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 2: taking accountability. Well, first, it's about understanding the impact the

513
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 2: harm had on the part on my partner. So for

514
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 2: me to hear I see that you're hurt, I want

515
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 2: to understand your experience of this hurt and taking the

516
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: time to really understand what is it about my action

517
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: that caused harm to you? Because we can rush through.

518
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 2: It's one of the things that happens is we rushed

519
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 2: through it because it's very vulnerable to make a repair,

520
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 2: well rush through it thinking all right, well it was

521
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 2: that I raised my voice at you. I'm sorry I

522
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 2: yelled at you, and before I take the time to

523
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 2: really understand, oh no, it wasn't. It wasn't you raising

524
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 2: your voice. It was you saying X to me that

525
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,479
Speaker 2: really made me feel bad about myself. Oh I didn't.

526
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have known that. So the first thing is

527
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 2: in really understanding what is it that I did that

528
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 2: was most impactful to you. Then it's taking accountability of

529
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 2: owning I did that, and couples get stuck here because

530
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 2: they will debate that content piece and is that what

531
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 2: I actually said, or is that what I meant? Or

532
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 2: it did I was I really late toward you know,

533
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff, and it's a waste of

534
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 2: time to debate that first piece of understanding. What is

535
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 2: it that hurts you? Will help you know how to

536
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 2: take accountability. I'm sorry I said that, or if if

537
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 2: you've really if your brain is really stuck on me,

538
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 2: that's not what I said or that's not how I

539
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 2: said it, Then just apologize for hurting the partner. Sorry

540
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 2: I hurt you, So take take accountability, and then check

541
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 2: in and make sure that does your partner feel better?

542
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 2: You've seen it. And the sort of metric I use

543
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 2: is your partner look better, same or worse? And if

544
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 2: it's better or same, all right, you're in the in

545
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 2: the right neighborhood. If if worse, all right, you got

546
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: to you got to take another swing at it to

547
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 2: make sure that your partner feels better. And so that's

548
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 2: that's the very quick and dirty sort of explanation of

549
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 2: what a repair takes. But the important piece to make

550
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 2: sure to mention is that a successful repair takes two people. Yes,

551
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 2: it takes both the person who's injured, who's made the mistake,

552
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,959
Speaker 2: and it takes the receiver of the repair for it

553
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 2: to go well. Because there is a tendency and I

554
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 2: have seen this increase in the last four years, four

555
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 2: to six years to rub people's faces in the mistakes,

556
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 2: rub their face, the difference to say, yeah, you did

557
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 2: hurt me, You're a total jerky. Why did you do that?

558
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 2: You labbaye blah, you know, and that creates no safety. Yeah,

559
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 2: repair is the most powerful thing we can do in

560
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 2: relationship for all the reasons I mentioned before that it

561
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 2: creates safety, it creates healing. Because many of us did

562
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 2: not ever receive repair from our parents, because you know,

563
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 2: lots of generations before us were taught you know, children

564
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 2: are to be seen and not heard, and you know,

565
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff. So we didn't experience repair.

566
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 2: We didn't witness repair because lots of people, if they made,

567
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 2: lots of couples, if they make mistakes, don't do it

568
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 2: in front of their children. Then don't repair in front

569
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 2: of their children. So kids haven't seen it, so they

570
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 2: don't know what it feels like, and so it's incredibly

571
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 2: healing to receive a repair, and it also creates safety

572
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 2: to be imperfect in the relationship, which is what we

573
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 2: all need because nobody's perfect. We grow through mistakes. So

574
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 2: you want it to be safe in your relationship to

575
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 2: fuck up, excuse my language. And so you need your

576
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 2: partner to be safe to receive a repair. And so

577
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 2: the only appropriate response, the only appropriate response to a

578
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 2: genuine attempt at repair your partner genuinely means to make

579
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 2: it better. The only appropriate response is thank you. That's it,

580
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 2: not you're forgiven, because I don't want anybody forgiving anybody

581
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 2: before they actually feel healed. But you want to first

582
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 2: acknowledge the effort being made on your behalf, and it's

583
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 2: vulnerable to acknowledge. I screwed up and I hurt you

584
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 2: and I'm sorry. You want to make it safe for

585
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 2: your partner to do it because it's so important for

586
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 2: the two of you to be able to practice this.

587
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 2: You have to make it safe by saying thank you

588
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 2: for trying to heal this, yeah, Paul, and then talk

589
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 2: about it. The more of like, I still don't I'm

590
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 2: still hurt, I'm still upset. Can we talk about It's

591
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 2: more yes, but wait, first, applaud your partner for the

592
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 2: attempt well.

593
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: And that creates the safety right when you can see

594
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 1: that your partner is sitting there willing to hear you out.

595
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: I think a huge thing for all of us is

596
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: just we just want to be heard on most occasions.

597
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: And then the conflict probably came up because of two people,

598
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: something within what we've already touched on, like something from

599
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: the past, two different perspectives, seeing the world through two

600
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: completely different lenses. Like with two people, you're going to

601
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: have conflict. I don't think we talk about that enough either.

602
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: It's like two people are never going to see the

603
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 1: world exactly the same, They're never going to have exactly

604
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: the same needs you have to learn each other. But

605
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: these kind of situations where you're having a conflict doesn't

606
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 1: have to mean World War three. It's actually a time

607
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: to take their relationship even deeper and to do healing

608
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: from whatever this is you know, immediately coming from. And

609
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you brought up that it's gotten

610
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: worse in the last four to six years, because I

611
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: think that's what we're seeing on a macro level. It's

612
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 1: like we can't get over we can't come together on

613
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: anything politically, on anything whatever, because the second one person

614
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: says huh, or it's proven that maybe something wasn't the

615
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: full truth, the other side of whatever is just wanting

616
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: to rub everyone's face in it. Nobody's just going, hey,

617
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: let's just talk about this, like, let's figure out where

618
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: we went wrong or why this came up, or why

619
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: you thought this and I thought that. It's like literally,

620
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 1: ha ha ha told you so, over and over in

621
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: a cycle and a loop. And so we're never going

622
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 1: to get out of it if we don't stop doing that.

623
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm. I won. I won. I want, I want

624
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 2: exactly and I will. I will use any ammunition. I

625
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,320
Speaker 2: will use any information, whether it's valid or not information.

626
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 2: I will gather whatever data data quote un quote to

627
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 2: prove my point and to win over you. And it

628
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:09,399
Speaker 2: is the saddest thing versus being curious and interested in

629
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 2: what other what people who are different than us think,

630
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 2: believe why they think, and believe that what that might

631
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 2: be coming from. There's so much power and benefit and

632
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 2: in doing that, and yet and you know it isn't

633
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 2: happening at home. You know, this is what I'm saying

634
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 2: with couples that they're not curious, they're not being interested

635
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 2: in what is causing this conflict. And the you know,

636
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 2: the the other truth that I would I would repeat

637
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,760
Speaker 2: over and over again until I'm blue in the face.

638
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 2: Is every dynamic, Almost every dynamic, nearly every single one,

639
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 2: takes two people to exist. So any problem that exists

640
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 2: in a relationship, there are two people participating in that.

641
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 2: Certainly there are some exclusions, but almost all. And and

642
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 2: you know, when mistakes up, if you really pay attention

643
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: and are curious and interested, you can trace it back.

644
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 2: I'll have so many couples come in and go and

645
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 2: this came out of nowhere, all right. That fight that

646
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 2: you're saying just blew up out of nowhere actually started

647
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 2: like four days before when you didn't kiss your partner goodbye,

648
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 2: and then when you were on your phone when they

649
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 2: asked you a question. This adds up over time, and

650
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 2: so then yelling at you out of nowhere and calling

651
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 2: you a name or or using a tone isn't out

652
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 2: of nowhere. And if you trace it back, you can

653
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 2: find your part in the process as well. And that's

654
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 2: where the real growing and the deepening and the intimacy comes.

655
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,760
Speaker 2: Is really looking at how could we make this better,

656
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 2: How could we make this healthier? How could we prevent

657
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,839
Speaker 2: that fight from ever happening again? You can everybody? Can

658
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 2: you know?

659
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 1: I think you touched on something so brilliant at the

660
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 1: beginning of this that we think we can just get married.

661
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: We can build this life, this little fantasy, fairy time whatever,

662
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: white picket fence, that is what we have been taught

663
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,240
Speaker 1: is the goal. And then it stops, or growing stops,

664
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 1: and my understanding of life has completely changed. And so

665
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 1: I wonder what you feel about this. But like, I

666
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 1: don't think we ever stop growing our learning, or if

667
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,919
Speaker 1: we do, that is to a detriment of our life,

668
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: our relationships, everything, Like, the more you can stay open

669
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 1: to this is a constant, growing, evolving situation, then the

670
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,240
Speaker 1: more your life will benefit. Do you feel that way.

671
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 2: One hundred percent? I mean, it's it's science, it's everything

672
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 2: that you know. If you were a gym goer, you

673
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 2: don't stop going to the gym once you reach bench

674
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,320
Speaker 2: pressing whatever two hundred pounds, You're not going to be

675
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 2: able to maintain that strength unless you work at it.

676
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 2: If you're a gardener, you know you plant a garden.

677
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 2: If you don't weed that garden, if you don't water

678
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,959
Speaker 2: that garden, if you don't fertilize that garden, it will

679
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 2: stop producing, right And you know, after one season, you

680
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 2: have to we have to continually practice our skills to

681
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 2: keep growing. And as humans, we're continually changing every day

682
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 2: something different, whether it's you know, like I'm on the

683
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 2: I'm on the I'm on the slow downhill and you know,

684
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 2: in my fifties, so I'm you know, slowing down as

685
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 2: you know, working to keep up on the peloton so

686
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 2: that I don't slow down too fast. But you know,

687
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: everything is changing in my body, everything is changing, my

688
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 2: husband's body. We have to react to the changes that

689
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 2: go and the societal changes that are happening. My field

690
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 2: has changed as a result of you know, now mental

691
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 2: health care is largely online. You know, the majority of

692
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 2: therapies happening online now still happens in person. But it's

693
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 2: you know, that has evolved as we grow and learn

694
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 2: more about the human brain, that evolves, podcasts, you know,

695
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 2: social media. Everything is changing around of politics. You know,

696
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 2: oh good golly, all the things they're changing as a

697
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 2: result of the political climate in the US and beyond,

698
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 2: and so that impacts our relationship and impacts us individually

699
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 2: and impacts our relationship, and if we're not adapting to that,

700
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:14,840
Speaker 2: our relationship goes to sleep.

701
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, the fourth step gets to what I think

702
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 1: everyone would probably get into couple's therapy thinking was the

703
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: whole reason they were there. Yeah, and that's intimacy, sex,

704
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: the passion, And that is what my friends are coming

705
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 1: to me saying, like, oh, we haven't had sex and

706
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: however long, or the passion's dead, and our I think

707
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 1: quick response to that is maybe I need to get

708
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: a divorce, or maybe this relationship's over and people quit.

709
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 1: And actually, all of the little steps that we've talked

710
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 1: about up until now get to probably the deepest version

711
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 1: of that that you could ever desire. But it doesn't

712
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 1: look easy or pretty or any of that stuff. So

713
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 1: let's get into that a little bit. Are you seeing

714
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: people just want to skip the step and go, why

715
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 1: can't I have the sex I was having at the

716
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 1: beginning of this relationship? Like that died so like it

717
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 1: must be over right?

718
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 2: Yep, yep, Yes, they absolutely want to skip the step,

719
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:15,439
Speaker 2: and I drive everybody crazy by making them do the steps. Right,

720
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,839
Speaker 2: you know, I'm always careful to acknowledge. Just because I'm

721
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 2: making you do the work doesn't mean you can't be

722
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 2: curious about, be interested in, and be introducing play and

723
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 2: fun and mystery into your relationship even if it's not

724
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 2: sexual way and fun, and in doing so, you may

725
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 2: wake that part of your relationship up. The best sex,

726
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 2: the best romance, the best intimacy is going to come

727
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 2: as a result of doing all of these things. And ps,

728
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 2: it's also those same components that help you have the

729
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:55,399
Speaker 2: really rich, fun, amazing, mind blowing sex. You know, if

730
00:40:55,440 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 2: you feel accepted and understood sexually, if you are understood

731
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 2: about you, what you like, what feels good, what turns

732
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:08,399
Speaker 2: you on, all of that sort of stuff, sex gets better.

733
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 2: And so many couples skip that step communication. Knowing how

734
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 2: to talk about that and and some of our puritanical

735
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 2: roots way back when to the country's beginning really monkey

736
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 2: with our ability to understand and our ability to make

737
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 2: safe acceptance for who we are sexually to one another.

738
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 2: That you know, your two consenting adults, really anything goes,

739
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 2: But how do we talk about it when we've been

740
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 2: trained that sex is only for making babies or you

741
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 2: shouldn't do X, Y or Z or that's dirty or

742
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 2: that's wrong or whatever. It really monkeys with our capacity

743
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 2: to understand ourselves sexually and understand each other, and so

744
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 2: really creating the safety and a bubble for the for

745
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 2: the two of you for your relationship really enhances that

746
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 2: where you can have way more fun than you've ever

747
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 2: been having. And also just accepting that things change over time.

748
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 2: You know, what, you do the same thing enough times,

749
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 2: it's no longer really all that fun or interest.

750
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 1: So it gets boring, gets boring.

751
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 2: And yet couples don't know how to acknowledge that or

752
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 2: talk about that, or make it safe to experiment or

753
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 2: try new things. And you know, in a fifty year

754
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 2: committed relationship, you run out of things to try if

755
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 2: you're not talking about.

756
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: It, right, Isn't it the same step though in a way,

757
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 1: because with sex, it's like, if you don't understand your

758
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 1: own programming about sex or your own blocks, your own

759
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,760
Speaker 1: things that came with you from the past, how could

760
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,320
Speaker 1: you have conflict and repair about sex with your partner?

761
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 1: How could you like, we can't do any of it

762
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 1: without the other. I guess that's my point, yep, exactly right.

763
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 2: You have to understand yourself and you have to understand

764
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 2: your partner, and you have to create safety to be

765
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 2: fully yourself in the relationship. So you know, I mean

766
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 2: it's a uh. You know, with each new exercise you

767
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 2: do from fired up, with each new understanding you gain

768
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 2: your sex, the sex is going to get better. So

769
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 2: you don't have to wait to start playing in that area.

770
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 2: But the more you do from the earlier sections that

771
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 2: the better it's going to get in the later sections.

772
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

773
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 2: So, I mean the book is meant to be read sequentially,

774
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 2: but I'm imagining that many people are going to go

775
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 2: to the lamp dreft or read that first. Of course,

776
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 2: of course, you know that's that's human nature, right, we

777
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:42,280
Speaker 2: want we want dessert.

778
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 1: First, exactly. I want to skip the steps because the

779
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: steps are not that fun at the beginning of it.

780
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: I think that the more you do it, the more

781
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: benefit you see, and the more for me at least,

782
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: the more comfort in them I find. And so I

783
00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 1: actually want to go to the steps first now because

784
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 1: I know the benefit that will come from it, you know,

785
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: as see the reward. I guess it's interesting though, because

786
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: I've had many sexual experts on this podcast, all of

787
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: them say sex gets better with age. We're missing it,

788
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: like it actually is better the more you're doing this

789
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 1: kind of stuff versus this like fairy I keep saying

790
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 1: fairy tale. It's not even that it's this fantasy that

791
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: we make up about that passionate beginning, because really, if

792
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 1: you get to the depth of sex with your partner,

793
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 1: with all of these pieces that we've talked about, it's

794
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:37,879
Speaker 1: better than that rando crazy vacation sex you had with

795
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 1: you know, Pallo or whatever. I'm making up. But I

796
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 1: do think that's what people go to. And these are

797
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:47,919
Speaker 1: the conversations I'm having with my friends where it's like, oh,

798
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: I just want to weakend tryst with blah blah blah,

799
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 1: and it's like, yeah, it's really not as satisfying as

800
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 1: I think people are making up in their heads.

801
00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 2: Right, of course not. And there is something about a

802
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 2: stranger that allows us to be totally uninhibited. Is safety

803
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 2: in not knowing the person you're having sex with because

804
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 2: they don't see your you know whatever, crusty toothbrush on

805
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 2: the sink. They don't see you have to do your laundry,

806
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff. And estra Perel is wise

807
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 2: and wonderful and talking about a lot of this, and

808
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 2: so there is something in that fantasy of not being known.

809
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 2: But what we're really actually creating is being able to

810
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 2: be completely free and the richest sex is possible when

811
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 2: you have created safety with your partner to be your

812
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 2: messy self and have your partner be totally turned on

813
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 2: even though they do your laundry, even though they negotiate

814
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 2: the bills. It's about recognizing the challenges and creating those

815
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 2: workarounds that, Yeah, the sharing of life together is inherently

816
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 2: un sexy. There's nothing sexy about navigating bills or houseware,

817
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 2: cleaning toilets together. And we can still, you know, be sexy,

818
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 2: you know, be mysterious. We just have to work at it.

819
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,879
Speaker 2: And that's the part that no one wants to do.

820
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 2: And the sort of cliche that I use is you

821
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 2: can either invest your time preventing problems or you can

822
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 2: invest time cleaning up the problems, and so you're spending

823
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 2: the time on your relationship. I'm just trying to have

824
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 2: people invest it wisely and with benefit. And I don't

825
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 2: do boring and I don't like I'm not here to

826
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 2: make people miserable. I'm here to have fun into play,

827
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 2: and so with the right spirit, any of this work

828
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 2: in the book is meant to be fun. It's meant

829
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 2: to be an exploration that can be silly and playful

830
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 2: and lighthearted, even as we're talking about painful stuff.

831
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 1: Yes, I love that the whole point about you can

832
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,399
Speaker 1: either do it now or later, And I think that's

833
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 1: one of the things we miss and relate to. Like

834
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: you said, the gem analogy is always a good one

835
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:04,240
Speaker 1: to me. It's like, if you want to be in shape,

836
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 1: you have to go work out, and it's the same

837
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: with our relationships, with our inner work. It's all the same.

838
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 1: For some reason, we've just gotten We've been brought up

839
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 1: to believe you don't have to do work around this,

840
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 1: or you can stop doing work like these are continual processes,

841
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 1: just like everything else. You want the results, you have

842
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 1: to do the work.

843
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 2: Yep. And people are like, well, you know, I'm going

844
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 2: to take the easy way out. I'm just going to

845
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 2: leave the relationship. It's not worth it to me to

846
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 2: do that work, so I'm going to leave. Leaving a

847
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 2: relationship ain't easy. We're covering from a relationship with getting

848
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 2: over a heartache or loss ain't easy. So there is

849
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 2: no you know, there's no cheating life. There's no really

850
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,879
Speaker 2: getting around the work we have to do. We can

851
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 2: either do the work to have a better life, a

852
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 2: richer life, a deeper life, or we can do all

853
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 2: of this work to keep the skeletons in the closet,

854
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 2: you know, like we're like using all our weight to

855
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 2: keep them, keep them behind that door. And I want

856
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 2: everyone to have a richer, more connected life to themselves

857
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 2: and to others. Well.

858
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 1: And it's like you said earlier, you can leave that

859
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 1: relationship unless it's abusive. There is always that stipulation, but

860
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 1: you can leave that relationship. And I used to have

861
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:16,399
Speaker 1: a mentor say, well, wherever you go there you will

862
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 1: be exactly I'm going to find myself again in the

863
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 1: same probably exact patterns may be worse unless I do

864
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:27,359
Speaker 1: this healing within myself. So anyway, I'm a huge fan

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00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: of the book. I love the message you're putting out there.

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00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 1: The other benefit, you guys, is she has all these

867
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 1: exercises in the back of the book, so it's like

868
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:39,320
Speaker 1: it's just the guide to figuring it all out. It's wonderful.

869
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 1: It is out now. Like I said, I'll put the

870
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: link to this book in the description of this podcast.

871
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 1: But Carolyn, where else can people find you? If they

872
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 1: want to keep up with your work?

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00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 2: They can find me at Secure Connections Coaching on Instagram

874
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 2: and Facebook, Secure Connections Coach on TikTok if TikTok is

875
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 2: still alive when this podcast stairs or Carolyn Sharp also

876
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,799
Speaker 2: on face book and all of my contact information. If

877
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 2: people have questions or you want to chat about how

878
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,320
Speaker 2: I might support their relationship or what their relationship needs.

879
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 2: I always love.

880
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 1: Talking to people amazing. Again, I'll put all of that

881
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: in the description of this podcast. Thank you so much

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00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:17,319
Speaker 1: for being here and having this conversation with me.

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00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:19,360
Speaker 2: Thanks Kelly, It's wonderful chatting with me.