1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome 2 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: back to part two of Work in Progress with the 3 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: inimitable Amanda Knox. Let's continue. It's so amazing, you know, 4 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: all these years later, that you've turned this into not 5 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: only that you're an advocate, but you've also turned your 6 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: advocacy into projects like the Scarlet Letter Reports. You know. 7 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 2: Ah, yeah, thanks for bringing up the Scarlet Letter Report. 8 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: I just think it's so amazing because you in it, 9 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: you're examining the very gendered nature of public shaming and 10 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: the way we treat women is just horrific, and I've 11 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: been through it in my way. Obviously we're talking about 12 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: your story today. I think about what was done to 13 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: Britney Spears. I think about what just happened with Karen Reid, 14 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: you know, and you've done things to remove the veil 15 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 1: and particularly examine the ways women are treated. And I 16 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: want to talk about all of those lessons. But before 17 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: we zoom out to the way the world treats us, 18 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: I guess I just want to know. You know, obviously, 19 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: people can read your books. I don't want you to 20 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: have to recount your whole story. 21 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 3: It's a lot well it's a big story. 22 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: But I think about the fear I feel imagining that 23 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: moment to be falsely convicted of a crime so egregiously 24 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: with no real evidence, to be raked over the coals 25 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: in the court of public opinion because they didn't have 26 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: the evidence, so they needed people just not to like 27 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: you were a kid, how did you. 28 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 2: Hope? 29 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: Because I think it's a miracle that you're not sitting 30 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: in the corner eating your own hair right now. So 31 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 1: for later, Yeah, were you questioning your sanity? Were you 32 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: questioning reality? What did you do to remain tethered to 33 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: the truth in your young life in this place? 34 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, So to answer your question, absolutely, Like everything went 35 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 2: through my mind to try to explain what was happening 36 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 2: to me and why, And I mean I went through 37 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 2: I feel like all the stages of grief as well, 38 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 2: where part of it was denial, Like I spent a 39 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 2: while there in prison feeling like I was living somebody 40 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 2: else's life by mistake, and that like some adult was 41 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 2: going to figure it out and give me my life back. 42 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 2: So like that was also the kid mentality that I had, 43 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 2: where I was like, I'm in over my head because 44 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 2: I'm a kid, and I need some adult who's in charge, 45 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 2: who is sane, to like fix the situation. Like it 46 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 2: was like, yeah, that's that's how it felt for quite 47 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 2: a bit of time. Was like I'm in a tough situation, 48 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 2: but if I just endure for long enough, the adults 49 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:32,839 Speaker 2: will will do the right thing. 50 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 3: That's what it felt like. 51 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 2: And like in those early days, I actually get myself 52 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 2: through just the time and the insanity, like just sitting there, 53 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 2: and I mean, there's there were so many bad things though, 54 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 2: Like it's there's the courtroom bad things like having to 55 00:03:54,880 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 2: listen to people talk in very gruesome detail about the 56 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 2: murder of your friend, but then also putting the knife 57 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 2: in your hand, or like listening to my prosecutor like 58 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 2: like create this story about like putting words, literal words 59 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 2: into what I supposedly said to Meredith as I'm like 60 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 2: taunting and torturing her to death. 61 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 3: Like just just having to sit there. 62 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 2: I've just like while this is just happening around me, 63 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 2: like it's no big deal, and not be able to 64 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 2: do anything about it. 65 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 3: So just like sitting there, and. 66 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: You know what I think about for you, I think 67 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: about the way men just are allowed to sit and court. 68 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: But women, everything you do is picked apart. And if 69 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: you cry, maybe you're crying because you're guilty. If you 70 00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: don't cry, you're a frigid bitch who has no feelings. 71 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: You must be a murderer. If you don't like, no 72 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: matter what you do, they're gonna tell you what's wrong. 73 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 2: Right. If you look good, they say, oh, look she's 74 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 2: trying to like use her feminine wiles to like seduce 75 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 2: the judge. If you don't look good, it's like, oh, 76 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 2: look at her, you know, Like it's just it's just NonStop, 77 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 2: but it it really is truly picking a human being, 78 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 2: a part constantly being viewed in the worst possible light. 79 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 2: It's utterly debilitating. It makes you feel like nothing you 80 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 2: say or do matters. It will only make things worse. 81 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 2: It makes you just want to disappear. And I mean, 82 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 2: like I was doing little things, like you know, I 83 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 2: was an athletic kid, and so like I had little 84 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 2: mantras when I was being you know, riding my bike 85 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 2: up a steep hill where I would just do, like 86 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 2: the little engine that could, I think I can, I 87 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 2: think I can. 88 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 3: I think I can. 89 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 2: And sometimes like I would just be sitting there in court, 90 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 2: just going I think I can't, I think I can. 91 00:05:57,920 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 2: I think like I can. I just need to get 92 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 2: through this moment and have you ever Actually I'm curious 93 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 2: because I feel like I may be the biggest fan 94 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: of the Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. 95 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 3: That I feel like is. 96 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 2: Like love the underrated show ever, but like that show 97 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 2: extremely speaks to me. Also just because she's like, anybody 98 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 2: can survive anything for ten seconds, like that is that 99 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 2: is real? Like I don't know, I don't know about 100 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 2: like the next hour, but I can deal with this 101 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 2: hour and then I'll deal with the next hour next. 102 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 3: After the verdict, that. 103 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,919 Speaker 2: Became an even more important part of my ability to survive, 104 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 2: because now I wasn't just waiting for a verdict. I 105 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 2: had a twenty six year sentence sitting in front of me, 106 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 2: and I had to grieve my entire life, Like the 107 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 2: life that I thought I was going to get to 108 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 2: have with like a family and a career like that 109 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 2: was gone. And I was now imagining emerging from prison, 110 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 2: obsolete and unmoored and unrecognizable and just like a body 111 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 2: that was now in a world that had moved on 112 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 2: without me. And that was primed to want to punish me. 113 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 2: That's what I would That's the forecast of my life. 114 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:26,239 Speaker 2: And I did not know how to live that life. Yeah, 115 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 2: so I stopped trying to figure out how to live it, 116 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 2: and I started trying to figure out how to live 117 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 2: just today, Like if I could find a reason to 118 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 2: live today, that would be enough, and then I worry 119 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 2: about tomorrow? 120 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: Or what did you start to lean on? I mean, 121 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: as a as a person who loves literature, were you 122 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: were you reading a lot? Were you thinking to yourself, well, 123 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: maybe i'll get a degree here. I know people do that. 124 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: You know, it does seem to be a pursuit for people, 125 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: particularly who are falsely convict. Did you know we've learned 126 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: so much from organizations like the Innocence Project? I mean, what, 127 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: what did you think your coping strategies would be. 128 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 2: A great question. So the pipeline for getting a degree 129 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 2: didn't exist in my prison, so there wasn't really an 130 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 2: avenue for me to do that. I did have a 131 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: connection with a professor at the UDB who like continued 132 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 2: to help me like try to gain like continue getting 133 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 2: you know, credits for work that I would send into him, 134 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 2: like translation work, and stuff, but like, I didn't really 135 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 2: have a clear sense of being able to have a 136 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 2: degree right. Instead, what I had a clear sense of 137 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 2: was reading voraciously. I read a lot, and I looked 138 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 2: around me, and I tried to figure out how I 139 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 2: could have a meaningful existence within the confines of the 140 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 2: situation that I was in. And kind of ironically, I 141 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 2: had set out to become a translator, and now here 142 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 2: I am, over two years in prison, fluent in Italian, 143 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 2: and there are a number of people around me who 144 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 2: either are foreigners also and so are not fluent in 145 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 2: Italian and need a translator wow, or they are Italian 146 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 2: speakers but they don't know how to read or write. 147 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 2: So suddenly I realized that I was actually a very 148 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 2: valuable resource, and that sort of became my unofficial job 149 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 2: and sense of purpose. While I was inside, I was 150 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 2: the translator because there was no translator, and I was 151 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 2: the scribe because there was no scribe. 152 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 3: And so every day, every day. 153 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 2: I was brought into other people's cells to help them 154 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 2: read and write, or you know, do all those translate, 155 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 2: do all those kinds of things, or if someone had 156 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 2: to go to the doctor and needed to explain some 157 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 2: kind of ailment. I went with them to the doctor 158 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 2: to help them communicate, because there just wasn't that function 159 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 2: in the prison where I was at. So Weirdly, once 160 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 2: I had sort of accepted that I am a prisoner 161 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 2: and this is my reality, and my real reality isn't 162 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 2: outside of prison, I was able to find something very 163 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 2: purposeful to do. Did that make me feel happy? No, 164 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 2: but at least gave me a feeling of purposefulness. So 165 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 2: and that was enough, at least for the amount of 166 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 2: time that I was there. 167 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: Right, Well, yeah, something something to do, something to occupy 168 00:10:55,800 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 1: the mind. And I'm sure you know emotionally it helped 169 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: that it was helpful work. When everything I mean, what 170 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: is even the word, my God, when everything shifted was righted, 171 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: when you were exonerated, when they caught the actual killer, 172 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: the evidenced killer, whose fingerprints and all the rest of 173 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: it were there the whole time, part of me thinks 174 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: the relief must have been overwhelming, and then part of 175 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: me thinks to myself, but by then you were experiencing 176 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: such trauma, you'd experienced such trauma on repeat. Were you 177 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: even able to feel relieved? Did you have a moment 178 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: where you thought everything might go back to normal or 179 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: did you know that there was no normal to go 180 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: back to? 181 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:57,079 Speaker 3: Good question. 182 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 2: So my wrongful convict did not work itself out the 183 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 2: way that you typically hear about wrongful convictions in the US, 184 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 2: and that's in part because I'm a woman. In most 185 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 2: like classic examples of a wrongful conviction, particularly here in 186 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 2: the US, what happened was somebody got you know, murdered, 187 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 2: and they didn't have advanced DNA technology at the time, 188 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 2: or they just didn't test things back then, and so 189 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 2: they just get the wrong guy. And then twenty years 190 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 2: go by and they finally test the DNA and it 191 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,319 Speaker 2: reveals that the person who was convicted was actually innocent, 192 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 2: and it also like reveals who the real killer was, 193 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 2: and so there's this like moment of like baugh and 194 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 2: everyone realizes the truth and then the person who you 195 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 2: know is innocent gets out, the person who did it 196 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 2: goes in. Everyone's had justice is done, you know, wedding bells, whatever. 197 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 2: And that was not how it worked out in my case, 198 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 2: because two weeks after the you know, Meredith's murder, we 199 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 2: already knew who the murderer was, right, So it's not 200 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 2: that I was eventually exonerated because they finally discovered who. 201 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 3: The real killer was. 202 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 2: They knew who the real killer was all along, it's 203 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,959 Speaker 2: just that by the time they had identified him, they 204 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 2: had already arrested me, and so instead of admitting. 205 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: That they were wrong, they doubled down. 206 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 2: They doubled down, and the police argued that I had 207 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 2: committed the crime with the person who had actually committed 208 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 2: this crime. And so when I was acquitted, it wasn't 209 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 2: it wasn't this like sweeping universal acknowledgment of my innocence 210 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 2: the way that it would have been otherwise. 211 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:10,599 Speaker 3: Instead it was, oh, well, they got. 212 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 2: One of the murderers, but the other ones got off, 213 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 2: you know, they got off on a technicality. 214 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 3: And so to this day, to this day, in Italy. 215 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 2: There is a large portion of the population that still 216 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 2: believes that I am guilty of committing this crime, despite 217 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 2: the fact that there is no evidence of my involvement 218 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 2: at all. And that is because the way that the 219 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 2: information was revealed to them, and the story, the way 220 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 2: to interpret that information, the way that was revealed to them. 221 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 3: Set up a expectation of. 222 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 2: My guilt, and this sort of like guilt presumptive assumption 223 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 2: about me and it's just this feeling, like it's not 224 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 2: a great feeling when like people to this day, even 225 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 2: though I have, like you know, the exoneration, I have 226 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 2: the paperwork, I have the proof of my innocence all 227 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 2: of that, people to this day are still wondering like 228 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 2: and and a lot of and a lot of it 229 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 2: has to do with again, the way that we vilify 230 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 2: women publicly, right, like you say that you're not right 231 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 2: and you know and and you know, maybe she's innocent, 232 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 2: but she's deeply. 233 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 3: Unsettling, Like there's just like this, like there's something guilty 234 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 3: about her. 235 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 2: I don't know what it is, and so like there's 236 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 2: that Like I did come out of prison, So to 237 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 2: answer to finally answer your question, I was acquitted. I 238 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 2: was released from prison, and I was utterly overwhelmed with relief. 239 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 2: But that relief was quickly tinged with the realization that 240 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 2: I did not get to go back to just being 241 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 2: an anonymous college student. 242 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. 243 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 2: I was forever branded the girl who was accused of murder. 244 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 3: Yes, and I would. 245 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 2: Be living with that being the role that had been 246 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 2: cast for me. That was the trajectory of my life, 247 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 2: was carrying this scarlet letter with me forever. Right. 248 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: We'll be back in just a minute after a few 249 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: words from our favorite sponsors. The story that makes you famous, 250 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: the story that garners the attention, the story that gets 251 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: the most clicks, even when acknowledged to not be true, 252 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: is never written about and clicked on the way the 253 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: lie was. The lie is the juicy thing. And when 254 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: an organization, you know, the police, corporation, a team whatever, 255 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 1: can profit off of vilifying someone, they will, and that 256 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: fire will burn so big and so bright, and when 257 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: it's put out, it's not burning anymore. It doesn't get 258 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: the eyeballs. And that is something I mean, it's a 259 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: reckoning our society needs to have because to your point, 260 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: to put people through this, to rip them apart in shreds, 261 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: it is debilitating. You don't get to be the same, 262 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: even if you are a courageous enough person to put 263 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: your life back together. And I don't think people get it. 264 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: And maybe people who you know have been through things 265 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: that have given them PTSD just get each other. I'm 266 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: really fascinated by your choice to seek out communication with 267 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: the prosecutor. To choose to do that, was that something 268 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 1: you realized you needed to heal or was it something 269 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 1: you hoped would help you expand your understanding. Did it 270 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: give you any kind of closure? 271 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 2: Well, that was a word that I was chasing, right, 272 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 2: was closure. And I feel like anyone who has been 273 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 2: hurt by another human being can relate to this. Yeah, 274 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 2: you want to know if the person who hurt you 275 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 2: knows they. 276 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 3: Hurt you and knows that it was wrong, and. 277 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 2: You want to know if they're sorry, Like you just 278 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 2: want to know, like you want to know, and you 279 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 2: want to know why they hurt you, and like, and 280 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,719 Speaker 2: I had this, I think my experience because it was 281 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 2: pitched in this like criminal justice system, very adversarial positioning. 282 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 2: I had this idea that if I tried to approach 283 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 2: my you know, my adversary, my prosecutor, my he was 284 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 2: like my white whale, my Mount Everest, you know, like 285 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 2: he was just this like this entity. A part of 286 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 2: me thought, if I could just convince him that I'm innocent, 287 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 2: maybe I'll be okay, Maybe I'll I'll be okay, Like 288 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 2: because I'm not okay. 289 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 3: I'm not okay. 290 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 2: I don't under like this horrible thing took over my life. 291 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 2: I survived, but like I am, I'm still just carrying 292 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 2: this the burden of someone else's crime for the rest 293 00:19:56,160 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 2: of my life. Can I be Okay, can I just 294 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 2: convince him? And if I can't, like, can I just 295 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 2: get some understanding of why? Because I did, deep down 296 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 2: feel like he wasn't an evil person, right, Like he 297 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 2: wasn't evil in the way that the person who murdered. 298 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 3: My roommate was evil. 299 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 2: Right, and even like this person, like I've you know, 300 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 2: since come to think like maybe he was like out 301 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,199 Speaker 2: of his mind on drugs, Like who knows what was 302 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 2: going on? Like I've honestly not investigated him as much 303 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 2: because I'm less interested in humanizing him. 304 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:36,959 Speaker 3: I'm trying to humanize everyone. 305 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,199 Speaker 2: But like, let's start with who I can first, And so, 306 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 2: like I'm trying to I'm trying to do for my 307 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 2: prosecutor what he did not do for me, right, which 308 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 2: is give him the benefit of the doubt, and and 309 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 2: try to imagine a world in which he had good 310 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 2: intentions right and did not purposefully put an innocent twenty 311 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 2: year old girl in prison, right, Okay, So let's begin 312 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 2: from there. And so I wanted to do that one 313 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 2: to do him justice because I did not want to 314 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,120 Speaker 2: commit the same kind of crime that had been committed 315 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 2: against me. And I'm a deeply, deeply curious person. I 316 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 2: was very very curious to see what would happen if 317 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 2: instead of approaching him in the way that anyone would 318 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 2: expect me to, which was to you know, shake my 319 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 2: fist at him and. 320 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 3: Blame him and yell at him and be like what 321 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 3: the fuck? 322 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 2: What if? Instead I tried to find common ground and 323 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 2: I tried to find some kind of understanding and agreement 324 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 2: with this person. Yeah, and so that's what I set 325 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 2: out to do. And at first I thought I would 326 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 2: only be able to do this in person, Like you know, 327 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 2: you know how those like I had this like idea 328 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 2: in my head, you know how these two people just 329 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 2: are in a room with each other, just looking into 330 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 2: each other's eyes and like recognize their humanity. 331 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 3: Like I wanted a moment like that. 332 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 2: And then the pandemic happened and so there was no 333 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:33,239 Speaker 2: face to face meetings happening at all. But weirdly that 334 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 2: actually worked out in my favor because I just spent 335 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 2: two years over the pandemic corresponding with this man and 336 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 2: not necessarily demanding that he give me answers about the case. 337 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 2: More just allowing him to tell me what he wanted 338 00:22:55,560 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 2: to tell me, and being willing to share with him 339 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 2: things about my life that I challenged myself to be 340 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 2: okay with sharing with him, Like, you know, this is 341 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 2: how i've this is how my family celebrates the holidays. 342 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 2: Here's a picture of me and my sisters, like very 343 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 2: just real human being kind of stuff. Yeah, And over 344 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 2: the course of that correspondence, we developed I don't know 345 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 2: how to define our relationship. It is some kind of relationship. 346 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 2: It's not exactly a friendship, although it is one that 347 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 2: is based upon mutual trust and respect. 348 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 3: There I think that. 349 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,919 Speaker 2: There are some I think that there are some things 350 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 2: that we even like about each other. There's some things 351 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 2: that we have in common. He's also kind of a 352 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 2: big nerd and so like he's a huge fan of 353 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 2: Lord of the Rings, so you know, like just these 354 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 2: like weird little details and then and I think it 355 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 2: meant it was the thing that surprised me, and I 356 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,239 Speaker 2: think is a valuable thing for people to consider. 357 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 3: Just consider. I'm not saying that everyone should do this 358 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 3: thing that I did, well, yes, but I was. 359 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 2: Shocked by the number of positive things that resulted from 360 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 2: my approach that I was not expecting. Wow, like the 361 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 2: fact that this man who at one point in my 362 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 2: life was describing how I was taunting and torturing another 363 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 2: young woman now turned around and said that I was 364 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 2: the sweetest and most compassionate and nonviolent person that he'd 365 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 2: ever met, and. 366 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 3: Who jet he genuinely likes and cares about. 367 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: Did that allow you to unclench a little bit? Was 368 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: there some release of something? I know you can't ever 369 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: do it all the way your life was altered forever. 370 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: There are people who will believe something that isn't true 371 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: about you forever. And I have my own experience with that, 372 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: and it is nowhere near the same as yours, And 373 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: it like sometimes if I let myself focus on it, 374 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: I don't sleep for days. So I can't fathom that, 375 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: you know, you would ever be able to say, oh, yeah, 376 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: like this thing helped me heal, and I let it go. 377 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 1: But I almost wonder even a little, you know, if 378 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: like if it was this tight, if this thing that 379 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: has shifted with your prosecutor has just given you like 380 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 1: a little bit more space, or do you think what 381 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 1: it's done is just reaffirm your own choice to be 382 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: compassionate because it does remind you that things you might 383 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: have once thought impossible are possible. 384 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 3: You know what it shifted for me. 385 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 2: This feeling like this man had control over my life. 386 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 3: That was the big shift. 387 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 2: Wow, was realizing like this man had like for the 388 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 2: longest time, was this boogeyman in my mind who had 389 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 2: taken my life and molded it in his own nightmarish 390 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 2: imagination and he had all of this power over me. 391 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 2: That's what it felt like psychologically, was here was this 392 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 2: person between me and my well being? 393 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 3: Was this person right? And that went away when I, 394 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 3: like when I finally was like. 395 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 2: Oh, he's just a person with all of the flaws 396 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 2: that a person has. 397 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 3: He's just this this feeling. 398 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 2: You know, irrational thing and in a way like so 399 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 2: vulnerable in my hand. Now, wow, he is not this big, 400 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 2: scary monster of a being. He's just a dude. He shranked, 401 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,719 Speaker 2: he shrank in his like in his scariness, and there 402 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 2: was he was no longer an obstacle between me and 403 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 2: my self actualization. 404 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: Yes, and wow, that's really profound. 405 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 2: I did not expect that to happen, but like that, 406 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 2: I think that is where I'm a firm believer of 407 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 2: looking the thing that scares you in the eye, because 408 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 2: it is only once we turn around from the thing 409 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 2: we're running from and look at in the eye that 410 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 2: it actually diminishes down to the size that it really is. Yea, 411 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 2: and you can really like see what you have control over. 412 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 2: And so like when I you know, when I wrote free, 413 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 2: I called it free because I have been chasing my 414 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 2: freedom ever since it was stolen from me by this 415 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 2: man right, And it was only once arriving and meeting 416 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 2: with him that I realized that he was not the 417 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 2: barrier to me feeling free. It was me right, And 418 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 2: so I had I had to get to a place 419 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 2: where I could affirm my existence, that I could affirm 420 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 2: my identity. That I could and I didn't need him 421 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 2: necessarily to do that. 422 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 3: And so that's big. That was a big thing. 423 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: That's big. 424 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 2: It was really big. And so this is why I say, like, 425 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 2: I don't necessarily recommend that everyone do what I did, 426 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 2: but at least, just like hear it from me at 427 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 2: the very least, like, yes, whoever you think is between 428 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 2: you and your own actualization is not actually the obstacle, 429 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 2: Like he's not, he's not. 430 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: But I don't know that you could have right sized him. 431 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: I don't know that you could have shrunk him back 432 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: to his human self from this boogeyman's self if you 433 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: hadn't confronted him right. And everyone's going to have their 434 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: own path, everyone's going to have their own journey. But 435 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,719 Speaker 1: I do believe that on the road to healing is 436 00:29:54,800 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: recalibrating the size of your obstacle to get in touch 437 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: with your own size, your own power. And it makes 438 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: me really curious as a fellow language lover, which means 439 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: a fellow story lover. I think about the fact that 440 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: you know, you've written these two beautiful books, you advocate 441 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: for people, you use your story as something, and it's 442 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: now becoming a narrative story. You know, in my world, 443 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: it's coming to screens, and you've executive produced the series 444 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: for our friends at home. It's called The Twisted Tale 445 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: of Amanda Knox. It's coming out on Hulu August twentieth, 446 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: and I'm so thrilled that it's from you. Me too, 447 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 1: And I wonder, you know, I wonder what it was 448 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: like from this wiser place where you can hold more 449 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: space for yourself and other people and even this man, 450 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: where you have had to learn to live with the 451 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: fact that there will be people who will never believe you, 452 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: and that is like an open wound. How did you 453 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: choose to go back? Do you think serializing it and 454 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 1: allowing people to see it and allowing people to watch 455 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 1: what happened to you happen? Does that also in a 456 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: way feel like you're writing yourself another permission slip to 457 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: be free totally? 458 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 2: And I think one thing that I think is going 459 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 2: to be really important for people coming into this series 460 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 2: to know is that it is very intense. Just as 461 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,719 Speaker 2: a heads up, I'm really proud of this thing that 462 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 2: we've created, Me and Monica and the rest of the 463 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:03,479 Speaker 2: crew together at this very very powerful and important. 464 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 3: Valuable, beautiful thing. Yeah, and it is. It is very thoughtful, 465 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 3: It is very purposeful. 466 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 2: Its interest is in humanizing these extreme stories and experiences 467 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 2: and unpacking them and understanding them and also doing justice 468 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 2: to what really happened, And what really happened was very 469 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:38,719 Speaker 2: very bad. Like it's going to be really hard to watch. 470 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 2: I hope that in seeing it, I think seeing it 471 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 2: makes it real for people in ways that me just 472 00:32:53,520 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 2: describing it is different. It has a different impact. Grace 473 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 2: Van Patten, who plays me is an amazing actress, and 474 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 2: she has so fully embodied this young person who had everything. 475 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 3: Going for her until the world fell apart. 476 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 2: Like she has really really brought that to life in 477 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 2: a way that I think is I think she should 478 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 2: get all the awards for because the amount of work 479 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 2: that she has put in to. 480 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 3: Do this, do this, to do this thing is insane. 481 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 2: And there are things that I'm accomplishing in this that 482 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 2: I really care about, Like I want people to know 483 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 2: what happens in interrogation rooms. I want you to know 484 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 2: what happens in a prison cell. I want people to 485 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 2: know what happens in a courtroom, because a lot of 486 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 2: us do not have these experiences, and yet we have 487 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 2: this sense of entitlement to judge people who have these experiences. 488 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 2: Want to counterbalance that, and then on the flip side 489 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 2: of that, just from a human standpoint, like stories are 490 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 2: an incredible thing because they're a way of taking what matters. 491 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:17,320 Speaker 3: And keeping it alive. 492 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 2: And that includes Meredith, that includes me, that includes the 493 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 2: life that she and I could have had before she 494 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 2: and the truth were buried. 495 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, Like. 496 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 2: That's why we tell stories, because the truth matters, and 497 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 2: because the people who have lived them matter, and so 498 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,879 Speaker 2: all of this to say that it's I I feel 499 00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 2: really fortunate and grateful to have this role, ye, because 500 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 2: someone like me normally does not get to do this. Yeah. 501 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 2: Typically our stories are told without our consent and without 502 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 2: our cooperation. 503 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,320 Speaker 1: And they're often taken from you in that way. Again, 504 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 1: to be made a story, to be treated like a 505 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 1: character rather than a person, it is a repeated violation 506 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: of yourself. And I am so overjoyed, which is a 507 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: weird thing. It's a weird word to choose for subject 508 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 1: matter like this, But I am overjoyed for you that 509 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: you get the chance to take it back, and that 510 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,720 Speaker 1: you get not only the chance to take it back, 511 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:44,959 Speaker 1: but that you get to alchemize this really horrific thing 512 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: by telling the truth about it into information that people 513 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: can experience, that they can have a dialogue with, that 514 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:58,319 Speaker 1: could shape public understanding of wrong convictions, that could chip 515 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: away at that bullshit idea that innocent people don't go 516 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: to prison, that can illuminate the fact that most people 517 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,840 Speaker 1: who have experiences in the criminal justice system do not 518 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: have experiences with Olivia Benson on SVU right. And I 519 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 1: say that as a person who you know It's one 520 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 1: of my favorite shows of all time, and I got 521 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 1: to work with Marishka on it for a long time. 522 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 1: I know why those heroes matter to us, but more 523 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: often than not, when we are in those spaces in life, 524 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: that's not the person you encounter. And so I feel 525 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: hopeful for you that the series will not just change 526 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: the narrative around your case, but that it will help 527 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:51,800 Speaker 1: us ask better questions about the system in general. 528 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 3: You're here. 529 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 1: We'll be back in just a minute. But here's a 530 00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: word from our sponsors on the precipice of this coming out, 531 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: and it's making me think about what you spoke about earlier, 532 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: finding purpose, if not positivity in your work in prison 533 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,280 Speaker 1: while you were there, in the ways that you could 534 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:26,440 Speaker 1: help others. Do you feel that same sense of purpose 535 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:31,240 Speaker 1: with this or has the amount of work and creativity, 536 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: even though you have to rehash painful things, has it 537 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:40,399 Speaker 1: also been able to be positive or joyful as you've 538 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:41,279 Speaker 1: gone through it? 539 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:47,280 Speaker 2: So? Yes, so in the same way that like in prison, 540 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 2: at a certain point you just look around and go, 541 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 2: what do I have to give? Coming out of coming 542 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,759 Speaker 2: out of prison? I constantly am feeling the same way, 543 00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 2: like what do I have to give. What do I 544 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 2: have to offer here? And this feels like something that 545 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,800 Speaker 2: I have to offer. I've really, really thought and felt deeply, 546 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,800 Speaker 2: and I feel like the things that I have learned 547 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 2: in the process of thinking and feeling deeply about what 548 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 2: happened have led me to valuable insights that I want 549 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 2: to share with people. 550 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, and then on the flip. 551 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:29,840 Speaker 2: Side, like one thing that really I did not again, 552 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 2: I did not expect. But when you throw yourself wholeheartedly 553 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:38,239 Speaker 2: and commit to a project, be it meeting face to 554 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,279 Speaker 2: face with your prosecutor or you know, executive producing a 555 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 2: show about the worst experience of your life, there I 556 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 2: have always found myself encountering unexpected challenges but also unexpected blessings, like, 557 00:38:55,800 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 2: for instance, the ability to say goodbye to things that 558 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 2: I didn't have the opportunity to say goodbye to before. 559 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know. 560 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 2: I was on set and at a certain point, you know, 561 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 2: they built perfectly, They recreated perfectly our apartment to like 562 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 2: from the footage, like everything, the notes that were written 563 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,799 Speaker 2: on the refrigerator, like everything was exactly as it was. 564 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 2: And my showrunner, who's just so thoughtful o kJ, she 565 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 2: was like, Hey, do you want some time alone in here, 566 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 2: and so you know, while they're off, you know, filming 567 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:51,319 Speaker 2: something else, I just got to like sit in my 568 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 2: apartment one last time. Yeah, And the last time I 569 00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 2: got to do that was, you know, thelast time I 570 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 2: was there was when we discovered a crime scene. So 571 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 2: like I never I never got to say goodbye. I 572 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,359 Speaker 2: never got my stuff back, like I. 573 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 3: Never like they were there. 574 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 2: It was to the point where like they had put 575 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,319 Speaker 2: socks on the drying rack and I was like, those 576 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 2: are my socks, And I felt like this tremendous impulse 577 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 2: to like take my stuff back home with me, And 578 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 2: they even like gathered a few of the things and 579 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,759 Speaker 2: and packaged them up so that I could finally take 580 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 2: them home with me. So like being able to just 581 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 2: like say goodbye to something. But I never thought that 582 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 2: I would get the opportunity to say goodbye to and 583 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 2: to like honor this this experience of being sharing a 584 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 2: home with this young women, Like, yeah, I didn't get 585 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 2: to do that, And then surprisingly I did. And so 586 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 2: I had like some very you know, very high quality 587 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 2: immersion therapy. I don't think anyone was really people thought 588 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,759 Speaker 2: it was part of the project, but there it was. 589 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,439 Speaker 1: That's really beautiful. I mean it allows you to tap 590 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:14,800 Speaker 1: into something that's so primal and so human about ritual 591 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:20,240 Speaker 1: and when so much of what you must have thought 592 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,240 Speaker 1: before all of this would be the ritual and rhythm 593 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:30,279 Speaker 1: of your life never would be to go back. I mean, 594 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 1: it's it almost is like the first question I asked you, 595 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,920 Speaker 1: if you could, you know, bend space time essentially if 596 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: you could go backwards for a day and you got 597 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,279 Speaker 1: to go backwards, and I would imagine that it was 598 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:47,240 Speaker 1: incredibly healing, like in your. 599 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 3: Body it was. 600 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 2: And to your point that we don't have these rituals 601 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:56,840 Speaker 2: in our society to like honor and grieve the lives 602 00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 2: that we had before life hit up, like before the 603 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 2: future came and struck and became the present. 604 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,399 Speaker 3: Like, yeah, I. 605 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 2: Have a lot of grieving that I've been able to 606 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 2: do in the process of creating this work. Yeah, that 607 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:23,400 Speaker 2: I'm so so grateful for because otherwise that grief is 608 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,360 Speaker 2: just like a clenched fist in your body, and so 609 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 2: like there is a there is especially in the making 610 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:34,920 Speaker 2: of this there's been a feeling of like oh, just 611 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,319 Speaker 2: release and like, Okay. 612 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:42,480 Speaker 1: I think that's such a gift for us about the 613 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,080 Speaker 1: way you choose to share. I think a lot of 614 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:50,040 Speaker 1: people are afraid of grief m M. But grieving is 615 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:55,200 Speaker 1: actually such a joyous thing because it's a release. It's 616 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:59,759 Speaker 1: what makes space for the good things, for the light 617 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:05,000 Speaker 1: to come back into your body, being space life. And 618 00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 1: I I wonder you know now after all of this, 619 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,560 Speaker 1: you know, your face lights up when you talk about 620 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 1: your life, your family, your daughter, you know, finding all 621 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,200 Speaker 1: of that. You know the quote unquote picket fence happy 622 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:25,560 Speaker 1: ending totally? Is it? Is it something that you find 623 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:30,040 Speaker 1: that you think about differently than you thought you would before. 624 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:34,279 Speaker 2: Certainly, Oh, certainly because I'm hype. You know how I 625 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:38,120 Speaker 2: mentioned my weird little PTSD response of hyper Yeah, the 626 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 2: hypervigilants or like just the fear, Like it's hard for 627 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:47,080 Speaker 2: me to just experience positive things in my life, just 628 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:52,839 Speaker 2: positively right like have it hasn't stopped me from you know, 629 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,319 Speaker 2: having a family and having children, but like, as soon 630 00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,120 Speaker 2: as these good things are such an integral part of 631 00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:04,160 Speaker 2: my life, I can't help but be afraid of them 632 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:09,200 Speaker 2: being taken from me. And so that's where that like 633 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:15,000 Speaker 2: weird twitch response happens. And I have to my practice 634 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 2: now is in acknowledging the twitch and acknowledging that there's like, 635 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,960 Speaker 2: that's not a crazy thing to think. It is not 636 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,480 Speaker 2: crazy to be so in love with your child and 637 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:31,480 Speaker 2: to be utterly terrified that something bad would happen to them. 638 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,839 Speaker 2: Like that is a normal and rational thing to think. 639 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 1: Yep. 640 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,919 Speaker 2: And it's not the only thing. It is a thing, 641 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,840 Speaker 2: and it is a thing that makes you hyper aware 642 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:48,080 Speaker 2: of just how precious all of it is because it's 643 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:53,480 Speaker 2: all happening right now, and so do not be distracted. 644 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,839 Speaker 2: That I feel is the feeling that I feel. 645 00:44:57,680 --> 00:44:59,280 Speaker 3: Deep deep, deep in my bones. 646 00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:04,880 Speaker 2: Uncertainty is the principle of the universe. Impermanence is the 647 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,080 Speaker 2: principle of the universe. I don't know what is going 648 00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,040 Speaker 2: to happen, and so I just have to hold on 649 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:16,319 Speaker 2: to what matters to me while I can. Yeah, and 650 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:17,440 Speaker 2: that's all I can do. 651 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,719 Speaker 1: But it's beautiful. And the thing is, you know it 652 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:26,320 Speaker 1: in a way most people will not, but it's true 653 00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,239 Speaker 1: for everyone. You know, it's a it's a lesson that 654 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:33,080 Speaker 1: you get to share with us. And maybe that's it, 655 00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 1: you know, maybe working on feeling the response and then 656 00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:43,279 Speaker 1: acknowledging that the fear is okay and normal, and you're 657 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,680 Speaker 1: allowed to pick the other things as your area of focus. 658 00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:49,880 Speaker 1: You know, your daughter's laugh, your enjoyment of being with 659 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 1: her and in your in your home and with your 660 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:58,960 Speaker 1: partner and all these things. Does that do you think 661 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,160 Speaker 1: that is your work progress right now? Or because you 662 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,120 Speaker 1: are in this moment where even more is getting free, 663 00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:11,839 Speaker 1: is the work in progress something on the horizon line, 664 00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:17,400 Speaker 1: something something that feels like a newer practice. 665 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,880 Speaker 2: I mean the new The work in progress for me 666 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:24,120 Speaker 2: is yes, that like juggling all of those immense feelings 667 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:28,000 Speaker 2: at once. It's almost like pre grief, like the grief 668 00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,360 Speaker 2: of knowing that, like something that you have in this 669 00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:32,680 Speaker 2: moment is going to go away eventually. 670 00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:34,120 Speaker 3: Like I feel a. 671 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:38,759 Speaker 2: Lot of pre grief now, and that's okay because like 672 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 2: I don't want to. It's not like an alarm bell 673 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,439 Speaker 2: going off. Like if it was an alarm bell going 674 00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:49,160 Speaker 2: off and I started feeling panicky and clingy and like 675 00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,600 Speaker 2: grasping at something that I know I can't hold on 676 00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:57,600 Speaker 2: to forever, that would be a negative way to experience it. Instead, 677 00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:02,120 Speaker 2: it's just like the pre grief reminds me to really 678 00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:05,479 Speaker 2: appreciate the thing while I have it, and so that 679 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:09,280 Speaker 2: is that is the work in progress, is like making 680 00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,360 Speaker 2: that the right balance. And then of course it's the 681 00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:17,680 Speaker 2: balancing life, career, ambitions, creative ideas. Like I feel like 682 00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:20,200 Speaker 2: I have a lot coming out of me right now 683 00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:25,680 Speaker 2: because I have been processing and like there there. 684 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:27,239 Speaker 3: You know these two moments in your life. 685 00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:31,000 Speaker 2: You're either in your receiving and processing mode or you're 686 00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,440 Speaker 2: in your like producing mode. And right now I feel 687 00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:36,640 Speaker 2: like I have I've been such fertile ground that has 688 00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:41,319 Speaker 2: processed and and ground up and like churned through all 689 00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:46,279 Speaker 2: of this like really rich dark material, and now I 690 00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,040 Speaker 2: have it all come. I have like all of these 691 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,920 Speaker 2: green shoots sprouting out of me, and so I'm like, 692 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:53,719 Speaker 2: what's going on. 693 00:47:54,280 --> 00:48:01,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, you've literally you've been in that chrysalis experiences. You've composted, 694 00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:09,000 Speaker 1: and you're making all new nutrient rich life. How beautiful. 695 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:11,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a great place to be in. 696 00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:12,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really happy for you. 697 00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:13,480 Speaker 3: Thank you. 698 00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:17,960 Speaker 1: Congratulations on you know, on the books, and congrats on 699 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:23,919 Speaker 1: the show. I can't wait to rehash it once it's out. 700 00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't wait for you to see it. It's amazing. 701 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:29,839 Speaker 1: I'm excited. Well, thank you for joining me. Today, this 702 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:30,719 Speaker 1: has been wonderful. 703 00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:31,400 Speaker 3: Thank you