1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 15 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 19 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,960 Speaker 1: get your podcasts from iHeart Podcasts and Nomadic Engine. The 20 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: acclaimed dramatic thriller returns after Shock season two. He's like 21 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,320 Speaker 1: a ghost. We had an agreement to keep each other's secret. 22 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:23,119 Speaker 1: None of you are making decisions to keep the rest 23 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: of us safe, which leaves me I'm asking for your 24 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: forgiveness after Shock season two, starring Sarah Wayne Kelly's David 25 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: Harbor and Jeffrey Dean Morgan. Listen to after Shock on 26 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 27 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: I'm will daily. For years have been on the road, 28 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 1: playing shows and seeing America through live music. This summer, 29 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: I'll hit the stage. Season two of Sound of Our 30 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: Town ten cities twelve episodes every other Thursday, we explore 31 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: the live music venues and culture of a new American city. 32 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: With each new episode, our tour continues into the kind 33 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: of venues you want to get to when you land 34 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: in Detroit, Providence, Denver, or Seattle. Listen to Sound of 35 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: Our Town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever 36 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Rita Newcome is somebody we've known 37 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: about since the arrests were made in this case back 38 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,399 Speaker 1: in November of twenty eighteen, and Rita is Angela Wagner's mother. 39 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,959 Speaker 1: She claimed that Angela told her that if you don't 40 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: do this, they're going to hurt me. Can you imagine 41 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: your daughter is basically begging you not to turn her in, 42 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: and then you come to find out that she's essentially 43 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,679 Speaker 1: bringing you into a murder investigation and leaving you under 44 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 1: the bus. You know, a lot of times in this case, 45 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: it feels like they're doing more to convict Jake and 46 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: Angela than they are George. We've are in custody of 47 00:02:53,520 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 1: his son. What did he want? You can't custody? This 48 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: is The Pikes and Massacre Season four, episode sixteen relevancy. 49 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: I'm Courtneyard Shawan, a television producer at Katie Studios with 50 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. We're picking up after last 51 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: episode's testimony from Chris Newcomb, Angelo Wagner's half brother and 52 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: uncle to George and Jake Wagner. On the stand now 53 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,679 Speaker 1: is Chris Newcomb's partner, Miranda Hughes. She opted out of 54 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,679 Speaker 1: video recording, but allowed audio recording of her testimony. It's 55 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: important to note that George Wagner the fourth has pleaded 56 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: not guilty on accounts ass as his father, Billy Wagner, 57 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: whose trial is upcoming. Thank you, good morning. How are 58 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,839 Speaker 1: you nervous? You get that a lot from that chair. 59 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: Miranda opted out of being videotaped, but allowed her verbal 60 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: testimony to be recorded. Did Randa echoed much of Chris 61 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: Newcomb's testimony about Jake and George Wagner's disconcerting die job. 62 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: Were there any conversations about that at that time when 63 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: you saw them with their hair dyed? Yes? And what 64 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: was that? Well that? Why did they do it? And 65 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 1: Jake said he wanted to look like I think it's 66 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: names Norman reads Norman readers, Yeah, I told him he 67 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 1: was far from that. But both JP and George had 68 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: their hair come yes, okay? And did you know who 69 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: dyed their hair? Angela? And after the homicides, did that 70 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: fact that they had dyed their hair cause you to 71 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: think something? Yes? Okay? And what was that? Made me worry? Why? 72 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 1: Because why would you change your parents? And then something 73 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:57,559 Speaker 1: like that happened. Randa also backed up Chris's claims about 74 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: George's desire for a clock pistol? Was there ever a 75 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: time weird you were present for helping to obtain a 76 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: forty caliber clock for George. Yes, sure, Okay, Well, I'm 77 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 1: gonna overly objection the answer standing questions. Can you tell 78 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 1: us about that? Yeah? He asked Chris if he knew 79 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: of anybody that had a glock. Had Chris said that 80 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 1: he didn't know of anybody at the moment, but that 81 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: he could look for him. And when Chris found one, 82 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 1: I think George wanted it. So we met up with 83 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: the guy. But George wanted us to go because Chris 84 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: had been the one talking to him. Okay, And did 85 00:05:56,040 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: you accompany Chris? Yeah? Day, okay? And do you remember 86 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 1: where you met up with this individual? I don't know 87 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: exactly where. I just know it was a park and ride. 88 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: Randa also made some revealing statements about how George and 89 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: Jake asked her and Chris Nukam to secure custody of 90 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: their kids in case they went to prison after the 91 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: Wagoners were charged in these offenses. Did they want you 92 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: and Chris to do certain things? Yes? Regarding custody of 93 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: his son. What did he want you to do? And 94 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: get custody? Get custody? Okay? And how do you know that? 95 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: Because I asked? Okay? Well, George asked Okay, George asked, 96 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: and did anybody else ask you? Yes? Who else? Angela 97 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: and Jake? Okay, they all three asked you guys to 98 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: try to get custody of yes, correct, And did you 99 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: get an attorney to do that? Yes? But once the 100 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: Wagners were arrested, Chris and Randa abandoned their custody efforts. 101 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: Here's Stephanie and Jeff. This is the very first time 102 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: I'm personally hearing that George and Angela and Jake wanted 103 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,239 Speaker 1: Chris and Randa to be the guardians and the children. 104 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: And of course, you know, if you're getting arrested and 105 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: going away from murder, you would want your close family 106 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: member to have custody of your child. But you know, 107 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: at least one of the children George's in this case 108 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: had a mom who could have raised him. That being said, though, 109 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: George had told Chris and Randa that he wanted them 110 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: to have custody, and they were apparently pushing for that 111 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: until they actually met Tabby and realized that she was 112 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: not who George had made her out to be. She 113 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: was actually a good mom and a nice person, and 114 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: George's son had a nice life with her, So they 115 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: dropped any efforts to get custody of the children after Jake, George, 116 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,679 Speaker 1: and Angela and Billy were finally arrested, and for whatever reason, 117 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: the Wagners believed that they were the only people who 118 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: could raise their children and the only people that should 119 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: be raising their children. But it seems like ultimately Chris 120 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: and Randy disagreed. And I still don't think we're getting 121 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 1: the fall explanation as to why that is, other than 122 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: that the Wagoners simply wanted to control these children. Forensic 123 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: investigator Joseph Scott Morgan sheds light on the place of 124 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: Randy Hughes's testimony and the trial. With Hughes, you know, 125 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: she kind have had an insight into their world that 126 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: not many other people had. I think, you know, you 127 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: kind of get to to peek under the covers a 128 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: little bit with her. You got to see kind of 129 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: some of the insights as it applied to custody issues 130 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: and kids, and you know, that was the big thing, 131 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: you know, because that goes to motive, I think, and 132 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: we have to understand that. I think a lot of 133 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 1: people are mistaken when they think about prosecution. Prosecution does 134 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: not have proved motives that's not what the purpose of 135 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: this is. However, it does go to getting a feel 136 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: for what family dynamic was like of the familial environment. 137 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 1: I think that's that's very significant, and you know, it's 138 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: thrilled as we get about hearing people talk about forensics 139 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 1: and getting down into the nuts and bolts of things. 140 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: I don't think that it is as significant as you know, 141 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: being able to get an peak into this world. In 142 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: his cross defense, attorney Richard Nash tried to pin the 143 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: fascination with The Walking Dead on Jake. He was the 144 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: one who modeled his killings after the show's lead character, 145 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: not George the man on child. And there was some 146 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: discussion speaking of hair color. Jake had told you that 147 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: I think he wanted to look like Norman Redis. Yes, 148 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: and Norman Redis Is he the main character in the 149 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: Walking Day, He's kind of one of the main characters 150 00:09:55,559 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: of The Walking Dead. Yes, And Jake had a fascination 151 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: with Norman. Yes, Okay, I saw you really give me 152 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 1: a positive response to that. And you've watched The Walkie Gay, Yes, 153 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: I have, And so your familiarity with the movie, Yeah, 154 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: how do you kill a zombie? They shoot him in 155 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: the head. The jury also heard about the tattoos that Billy, George, 156 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: and Jake got after the murders. Jake got one of 157 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: flaming pistols on his upper arms. Billy and George's were 158 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: a bit more problematic again, and Geanette after the homicides, 159 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: you know, about a month and a half later or so, 160 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: June to twenty seventeen, he and Jake and George went 161 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: and they got tattoos. Billy's tattoo is a scorpion with 162 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: eight notches on it, and the prosecution thinks that that 163 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: holds some significance. We have eight victims in this case, 164 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:55,199 Speaker 1: and a scorpion, which can be fatal, is on his 165 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: right finger, which could be his trigger finger if he's 166 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: right handed, and he's got this tattoo with you know, 167 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: signifying something that can be deadly on his hand. George, 168 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: on the other hand, has something that's an eight ball 169 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: inside a skeleton's mouth with some aces on the sides, 170 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: you know, playing cards. Aces. I'm not you know, I 171 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: don't know if it's a coincidence. I don't. Obviously, the 172 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: prosecution feels like it's significant and it's relevant that the 173 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: number eight is common in these tattoos, a scorpion with 174 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: eight abdominal segments, a skull binding down on an eight 175 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 1: ball eight mode instead. Some people see the correlation, others 176 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: wonder why it's admissible. It's kind of strange because we, 177 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: I guess the judge is letting the jury look at 178 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: this and see if it's relevant. I mean, it's up 179 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,079 Speaker 1: to the jury to determine whether or not the tattoos 180 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: are relevant. I'm not sure, you know, I could see 181 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: the scorpion being relevant, possibly the eight ball in the 182 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: skeleton's mouth. I think we just have to wait to 183 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: see how their testimony plays out. Joseph Morgan is more dubious. 184 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: I would have said that years ago the tattoos may 185 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: have carried more weight. I think I'm recalling them my mind, 186 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: you know, you know, being for instance, in the Morgue, 187 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: I remember a couple of cases where I had people 188 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: who were legitimately folks that had worked as assassins in prison. 189 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: They wanted him dying when they finally get on the 190 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 1: outside and they have the tear drop tattoos. You know, 191 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: you always knew that point somebody that had committed a 192 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: homicide you had to chew put crosses on the hands 193 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: that you know, there's little crosses with the little radiating 194 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 1: lines that you know, you can tell somebody as a 195 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: drug dealer or an arm stealer, or they're an assassin. 196 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,839 Speaker 1: They used to tell these tales. But you know the 197 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: problem is people use tattoos now to try to create 198 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 1: an image for themselves. Maybe you could get a tattoo 199 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: expert to pop up on stand and say, oh, yeah, 200 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: based on the structure of this thing, this is generally 201 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: associated with people that are, you know, involved in this 202 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: type of behavior, particularly if you're talking about gangs and whatnot. 203 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: But you know, you can say that all day long. 204 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I've seen some pretty horrific things. Images of 205 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: these tattoos that people walk around in public with I 206 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: don't make a killer. It just means that they've got 207 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: an interest in this interesting art that they're willing to 208 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: put on their body and display to the rest of 209 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: the world. But that doesn't make you a perpetrator and 210 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: a homicide. The jury also heard heart stirring testimony from 211 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: Rita Newcombe, Angela Wagner's mother, and Jake and George's grandmother. 212 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: Nwcombe declined video or audio recording of her testimony. Petite 213 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: with Dirdy blondeire Nucomb is a devout Christian who wrestled 214 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: with their daughter's actions after the murders Stephanie and Jeff. 215 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: Rita wasn't heres when she testified about how she initially 216 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: lied to investigators to protect her daughter and quote her 217 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: grand babies, but then she soon came clean because of 218 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: her faith in God, and of course once the Wagners 219 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: became actual suspects, Steph. What I find interesting is that 220 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: Rita Newcome falsely told agents with the Ohio BCI that 221 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: she had signed these custody documents involving George and Jake's 222 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: children as a notary public. Rita basically testified in court 223 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: saying that Angela said to her, look, Mom, if you 224 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: don't admit this, they're going to really hurt me and 225 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: possibly even kill me. And that's a brutal spot to 226 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: be And can you imagine your daughter is basically begging 227 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: you not to turn her in, and then you come 228 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: to find out that she's essentially bringing you into a 229 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: murder investigation and leaving you under the bus. She continues 230 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: to describe the worst days of her life were the 231 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: eight days that she spent behind bars again. Forensic expert 232 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan. I'll see that Rita being in the 233 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: midst of this just titanic storm. There's part of me, 234 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: if you can, if anybody can feel kind of sorry 235 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: for anybody that's been associated with these horrible deeds. I 236 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: think that you know, I would list probably more toward 237 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: Rita newcome in this. Uh you know, she's involved in 238 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: this with her child. She's born witness to everything Angela 239 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: has ever been involved in. I think that most parents 240 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: will try to do anything that they possibly could in 241 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: order to help their child. I think early on that 242 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: people assume that this was a broad ranging conspiracy, and 243 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: immediately they associated Rita with it, that she was part 244 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: and parcel. They almost had her sitting at the kitchen table. Now, 245 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: I just I just don't see that that that was 246 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: the case, you know, relative to to to these homicides. 247 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: And if we are to believe that that Angela is 248 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: the controlling person, you know, this man nigulative, you know, 249 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: kind of Sungali like character that you know has swayed 250 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: over the entire family and how things are going to 251 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: be done. If Angela is that person, did Rita perceive 252 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: her daughter has maybe potentially, you know, going to do 253 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: harm to her, or she would have money to warm her. 254 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: And that's what makes that all the more homs. We're 255 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Oh. 256 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. 257 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few 258 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 259 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 260 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:52,359 Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 261 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He shouted and to the point she 262 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: went unconscious. Bob could lie about thing, but only takes 263 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, 264 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him 265 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: to pay for his crime. He needed to be put 266 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw 267 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call 268 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: him and I would say, I know you killed my sister. 269 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: I will always hound you and haunt you. You can 270 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 1: listen to The girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 271 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, Hello, Malcolm Gladwell here, 272 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: host of Revisionist History, a show about the overlooked and 273 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: the misunderstood stories you won't hear anywhere else, like our 274 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: ongoing obsessive campaign to blow up the world's most focused 275 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,880 Speaker 1: college ranking system. Why not just throw in a few 276 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: extra zeros or witness me after years of fancy public speaking, 277 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: learning that I kind of have to start over. The 278 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: tone that you had throughout the debate was very similar 279 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: to some of the students that I do quick, and 280 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: that's what I teach them not to do. We're making 281 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: more revisionist history for you this year than ever from 282 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: places all across this great country emergency rooms, huge theaters, 283 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: small towns, and shooting righteous and you want to put 284 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 1: your thumb up like us, You're gonna pull the trigger 285 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: with this finger here. Okay, listen to Revisionist History on 286 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get 287 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:32,239 Speaker 1: your podcasts from iHeart podcasts. Whitney Hill is going on 288 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: in here. Everyone has their limits. I'd never confronted a 289 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:37,959 Speaker 1: situation like this. I just thought it was just a 290 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: really terrible, immoral thing, a line they won't cross. I 291 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: was stunned and I just said, no, we're killing people. 292 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: You may never have to face that decision when you 293 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: find yourself at that line. Thou art ricin and somebody 294 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: needs to just for once give everybody the whole truth, 295 00:18:55,960 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 1: like this is evil and the only person who can 296 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 1: sound the alarm is you. I wasn't just going to 297 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: sit silently. Buy from iHeart Podcasts. These are the whistleblowers. 298 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: If you are disloyal, thinks are going to happen to 299 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: week out disgrace to our cut. Evil play should be 300 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: prosecute when power corrupts, conscience is the last line of defense. 301 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to the Whistleblowers on the iHeartRadio app, 302 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name's 303 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and host of 304 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember my Awart winning 305 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: first season. I've been pretty busy. There's always time to 306 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,919 Speaker 1: touch incredible guests about important things people like me have 307 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: been screaming for years. We've got to watch the Supreme Court. 308 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: What they're doing is wrong, what they're doing as evil. 309 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 1: They will take things away and I can only hope 310 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: that Dobbs, is that like Pearl Harbor moment, girl, you 311 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: and I both know what it took to just get 312 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: through the day in New York City and get home 313 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: in one piece. And so the fact that we're here 314 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: and what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know, 315 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 1: that's momentous. It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills. 316 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,640 Speaker 1: The only reason that you might think, as Chase said, 317 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: that we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking 318 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: us and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to the Laverne 319 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 320 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,959 Speaker 1: you get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share. 321 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: Rita Newcomb spoke extensively about her family's legacy of abuse 322 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: again Long Crimes Ancheanette Levy. Rita Newcomb is somebody we've 323 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: known about since the arrests were made in this case 324 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 1: back in November of twenty eighteen, and Rita is Angela 325 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: Wagner's mother. She claimed that Angela told her that you know, 326 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:06,120 Speaker 1: if you don't, if you don't do this, they're going 327 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: to hurt me. We never got a clarification on who 328 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: they are that she said they will hurt me if 329 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: you don't say you did this. She also talked about 330 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 1: how you know, she had been married to Angela's father 331 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: of course at Carter, and he was abusive to both 332 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: of them, I mean physically abusive, and Angela had actually 333 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 1: gone into the Air Force at eighteen she wanted to 334 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 1: get away from you know, or bad and this whole thing. 335 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: And we found out that Angela left the Air Force 336 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: early allegedly because she was sexually assaulted, and it was 337 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: never investigated or reported. According to Rita, I find it 338 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: interesting given the fact that the motive for these murders 339 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 1: allegedly was protecting me and the spear that the little 340 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: girl might be molested. So it makes you wonder, is 341 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: that were this concern about sexual assault or sexual abuse 342 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: where it originated was with Angela's time in the Air Force. 343 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 1: So I guess we'll find out as the case progresses. 344 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,120 Speaker 1: But she talked about not liking Billy Wagner. I would 345 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: think that seeing a woman who's seventy plus sitting up 346 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: there crying and reliving this and admitting to lying for 347 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 1: her daughter, but I would think the jury would take 348 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,639 Speaker 1: that very seriously. But again, this is George's trial, not 349 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: Angela's trial, but still it paints a picture. You know, 350 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: it seems like Angelo Wagner has just been painted as 351 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: the ultimate villain in this story, in this trial. I mean, 352 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: nobody says anything nice about Angela Wagner in this case. 353 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: The jury also heard from two PCI forensics experts, one 354 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: with special Agent Brian White, who searched the Wagner's property 355 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: in June of twenty seventeen. He's now a lieutenant the 356 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 1: Madison County Sheriff's Office in Central Ohio. Special Prosecutor Andrew 357 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: Wilson questioned him on the stand, and you boltibly swear 358 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: a refirm that the testimony you are about to give 359 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:13,919 Speaker 1: the true of the whole treence and nothing but the 360 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: true w Thank you, honor, and a nice loud voice. 361 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: Can you introduce yourself again to the journey. My name 362 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: is Brian White. I'm a lieutenant with the Madison County 363 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 1: sheerse Office. When you were out there searching that area 364 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: of two sixty Peterson Road June fourteenth, June fifteen, twenty seventeen, 365 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 1: did ultimately you find pieces of evidence that you collected 366 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: and took into customer? Yes, we did and June fourteenth, 367 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 1: June fifteenth, during that search, did you also have Matt 368 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: White out there with you, who was from the lab. Yes, 369 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: we did and explained what his role was or what 370 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 1: he did that day. Whenever if we would find something 371 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 1: that was firearms related through shifting, whether it be a 372 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: casing or bullet or whatever, Matt would take a look 373 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: at it and then he would put it in. He 374 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:14,719 Speaker 1: would basically separate them out and two different characteristics or 375 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: calibers or whatever. Okay, I'm gonna hand you what's been 376 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: marked for dentification purposes. I stick to give it ss live. 377 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,880 Speaker 1: Can you tell us what's in? I stick to give 378 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 1: it ss live. That's uh fired cartridge case two two 379 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: three caliber collected June fourteenth and fifteen, twenty seventeen, two 380 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: sixty Peterson Road. And it's got my name on it, 381 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 1: my initials. And again, is there a two two three 382 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 1: firearm listed on A two? Yes, there's the actors to 383 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 1: sixty Peterson Road property, which was owned by Jake. It's 384 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: thirteen miles from where the roads were executed. It was 385 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 1: at this location that White recovered twenty two caliber shell 386 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 1: casings that matched the ones found at the crime scene. 387 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: The Wagners were in Alaska at this time. On the 388 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: Peterson Road property, a second barn was mid construction, possibly 389 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: the bc I suspected to cover up evidence again and Jeanette. 390 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: In June to twenty seventeen, BCI, this was after the 391 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,200 Speaker 1: Wagners had moved to Alaska, went back to the Peterson 392 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: Road property where the Wagners had lived they had sold 393 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 1: it in May of twenty seventeen, a month prior, and 394 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 1: Brian White, it was like the lead crime scene agent 395 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 1: on this case, and he said that they went back 396 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: there with ground penetrating radar just looking to see if 397 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: there was anything buried underneath their under the ground of 398 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: evidentiary value. I mean, at this point in time, they 399 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: were still looking for murder weapons. The lead BCI agent, 400 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: Ryan Scheier, said there was a new barn that was 401 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: being built constructed on the Peterson Road property at the 402 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: time of the homicides. Really, I mean part of the 403 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: barn had been erected and it was under construction at 404 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: the time of the homicides and after the homicides, and 405 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: so BCI had gotten the new owners to text and 406 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: talk with Jake about this, which stimulated some conversation if 407 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: you would about it. It got George to call Angela. 408 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: They discussed it, and Angela was very concerned about which 409 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: barn they were searching, you know, which barne, She kept asking, 410 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: So they were concerned about the property being searched. And 411 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: George sounded like he was the one in charge, like 412 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: he was the go between, you know, asking Jake, you know, hey, Jake, 413 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 1: which barn is it? Because Angela wanted to know which barn. 414 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 1: So it sounded like George was very much the boss. 415 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: And in that conversation at least BCI criminal Intelligence analyst 416 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: Julia Evislage also took the stay and she intercepted the 417 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: Wagner's cell phone conversations and also monitored their social media activity. 418 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,120 Speaker 1: The Wagners and the Rodents had volleyed Facebook blocks back 419 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:15,880 Speaker 1: and forth, revealing potential grudges, focusing on Hannah Rodin's Facebook 420 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 1: and as previously mentioned, she was not currently friends with 421 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: Jeeke Wagner. From prior posts or messaging, they were at 422 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: one point friends, but they weren't at the time of 423 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: the return. She had blocked George Wagner's profile and Angela 424 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: had blocked Hannah Rodin's there was an assortment of relationships 425 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: between Tabitha's profiles, as there were a number of them, 426 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: but Hannah Rodin and Tabitha's most recent account were friends 427 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: at the time of the return. But in a world 428 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,719 Speaker 1: where people block each other routinely online, it's hard to 429 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 1: know how much weight to give someone pressing a button 430 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: on Facebook and Jeanette, I guess if there's some big 431 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: feud going on and the families are warring with one another, 432 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 1: of course you would have somebody blocked. Or maybe you 433 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: just blocked somebody because you don't want them snooping on 434 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: your Facebook, or maybe you just don't want that person 435 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: in your business. I don't know. I thought it was 436 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 1: strange that George who claimed Frankie was a good friend, 437 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 1: or at least his attorneys have claimed that Frankie was 438 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 1: a good friend, that he had Frankie blocked, he had 439 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: Hannah May blocked. You know, all these different people had 440 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 1: each other blocked. Is it indicative of somebody carrying out 441 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 1: out a homicide. I guess it could be, But as 442 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: far as like who who did what, or who planned 443 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: and covered up, I mean, I'm not sure it's that relevant. 444 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 1: Julia E. A Slage also played the court of fascinating 445 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 1: intercept of George Wagner on the family's journey to Alaska. 446 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: I thought Julia of A Slage's testimony was interesting when 447 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: we got to hear George Wagner. You know, it was 448 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: really the first time we'd or one of the first times, 449 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: i should say that we heard his voice, and we 450 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: heard that he can become quite agitated. It was after 451 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: the family had been stopped at the border in Montana 452 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: and interrogated, and he was putting his son in the car, 453 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: and he was telling his little boy, who was a 454 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: toddler at this time, those people back there that fed 455 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: you and played with you their liars. They're bad people. 456 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: They want to want to kill us. And the little 457 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: boy was saying no, no, no, you know, and things 458 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: like that. And I'm just thinking to myself as I'm 459 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: listening to this, this is a grown man talking to 460 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 1: his child who's a toddler and telling this child that 461 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: the people they just saw at the border were trying 462 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: to kill them. And I just found that to be 463 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: so strange and unbelievable. I couldn't believe that someone would 464 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: talk to a toddler like that. We're going to take 465 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: a break. We'll be back in a moment. Oh. I'm 466 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: Carol Fisher and I seen a podcast called The girl Friends. 467 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few 468 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 1: of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 469 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 470 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 471 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: He really wasn't, he shouted into the point she went unconscious. 472 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one 473 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us 474 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to 475 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice. 476 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now, 477 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I 478 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will 479 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to 480 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: The Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 481 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Hello, Hello, Malcolm Glabo here, host 482 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: of Revisionist History, a show about the overlooked and the 483 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: misunderstood stories you won't hear anywhere else like our ongoing 484 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: obsessive campaign to blow up the world's most focus college 485 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: ranking system. Why not just throw in a few extra 486 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: zeros or witness me after years of fancy public speaking, 487 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: learning that I kind of have to start over. The 488 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 1: tone that you had throughout the debate was very similar 489 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: to some of the students that I do work with, 490 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: and that's what I teach them not to do. We're 491 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: making more revisionist history for you this year than ever 492 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: from places all across this great country emergency rooms, huge theaters, 493 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: small towns, and shooting righteous and you want to put 494 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: your thumb up, like, are you gonna pull the trigger 495 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: with this finger? Here? Okay, listen to revisionist history on 496 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get 497 00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: your podcasts from iHeart podcasts. Whitney is going on here. 498 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: Everyone has their limits. I'd never confronted a situation like this. 499 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: I just thought it was just a really terrible, immoral thing, 500 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: a line they won't cross. I was stunned, and I 501 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: just said, no, we're killing people. You may never have 502 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 1: to face that decision when you find yourself at that line. 503 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: Aren't ricin and somebody needs to just for once give 504 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: everybody the whole truth like this is evil and the 505 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 1: only person who can sound the alarm is you. I 506 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 1: wasn't just going to sit silently. Buy from iHeart Podcasts. 507 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: These are the whistleblowers. If you are disloyal, things are 508 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: going to happen to set disgrace to our gun. Evil 509 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: pay should be prosecuted when power corrupts. Conscience is the 510 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: last line of defense. I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to the 511 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: Whistleblowers on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you 512 00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. My name's Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, 513 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 1: and host of The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember 514 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: my award winning first season. I've been pretty busy. There's 515 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: always time to touch incredible guests about important things people 516 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: like me have been screaming for years. We've got to 517 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: watch the Supreme Court. What they're doing is wrong, what 518 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: they're doing is evil. They will take things away and 519 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: I can only hope that Dobbs is that like Pearl 520 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: Harbor moment. Girl, You and I both know what it 521 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: took to just get through the day in New York 522 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,959 Speaker 1: City and get home in one piece. And so the 523 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: fact that we're here and what you've achieved and what 524 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: I've achieved. You know, that's momentous. It's not just sitting 525 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: around complaining about some bills. The only reason that you 526 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: might think, as Chase said, that we're always miserable, is 527 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: because people are constantly attacking us and we're constantly noticing it. 528 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: Listen to the Laverne Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, 529 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Be sure 530 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: to subside and share. As the round of testimony wrapped up, 531 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: some observers thought there was still an underwhelming amount of 532 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:18,800 Speaker 1: evidence against George Wagner. You know, a lot of times 533 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: in this case, it feels like they're doing more to 534 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:25,320 Speaker 1: convict Jake and Angela than they are George. Now, granted, 535 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: George is not the main player in this case. The 536 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 1: jury really just has to determine whether there's enough evidence 537 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 1: to show that George was part of a conspiracy to 538 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: commit and cover up murders. Eight murders. So that's really 539 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 1: what they have to prove. Yeah, we all want to know, 540 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 1: like the details. The only thing I can see is 541 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: that they somehow had it in their minds and it 542 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: almost seemed like a circular thing that they were all 543 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 1: feeding off each other, thinking they were the only ones 544 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: who could raise these kids in the way they wanted 545 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: them raised, whatever way that was. I mean, it just 546 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: sounds like it was a very insular life. Was a 547 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 1: lot of yelling too. More on that next time. For 548 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us 549 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Piked and Masker 550 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Alan Wieder, Andrew Arnow, 551 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:32,360 Speaker 1: Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed 552 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: by Jeff Tui. Music by Jared Aston. The Piked and 553 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: Masker is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For 554 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 555 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 556 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. 557 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 1: It's Las Vegas, it's the nineteen nineties, and it is 558 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 1: time to find a husband. There were four Jewish doctors 559 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,360 Speaker 1: who were felt to be eligible bachelors. One of them 560 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:45,760 Speaker 1: was the spot Baron Bout. On paper, he was perfect, 561 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: but in reality, this guy's a whacko, he shouted ed 562 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 1: to the point she went unconscious. I would call him 563 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,360 Speaker 1: and I would say, I know you killed my sister. 564 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 1: You can listen to the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple, 565 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: pote Cast, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is 566 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 1: the story of a man who's fascinated me. His name 567 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 1: was Sweet Daddy Grace, and that's a name you don't forget. 568 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: He was a visionary who built a fortune as a 569 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 1: black man during Jim Crow during the Depression, but today 570 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,880 Speaker 1: not many people know about him. The race sort of 571 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:25,360 Speaker 1: wiped out, and I wonder if this was done intentionally. 572 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,759 Speaker 1: Listen to Sweet Daddy Grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 573 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. From iHeart Podcasts and 574 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: Nomadic Engine, the acclaimed dramatic thriller returns after Shock season two. 575 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,080 Speaker 1: He's like a ghost. We had an agreement to keep 576 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,440 Speaker 1: each other's secrets. None of you are making decisions to 577 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,399 Speaker 1: keep the rest of us safe, which leaves me I'm 578 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 1: asking for your forgiveness. After Shock season two, starring Sarah 579 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,920 Speaker 1: Wayne Kelly's, David Harbor and Jeffrey Dean Morgan listened to 580 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: after Shock on the Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or 581 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm free, Are and 582 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 1: I'm rthy. We have spent the last twenty years building 583 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 1: and working at some of the largest companies in the world. 584 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 1: We worked with some remarkable people Rob mclenny. When I 585 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 1: see the people of Wrexham, I grew up exactly like them. 586 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,840 Speaker 1: Check out the RT and Tree Arm show. That is 587 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: a R D HI and s R I R a 588 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,360 Speaker 1: M show. Listen to the RT Instree Arm Show on 589 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,799 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.