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Speaker 1: Bodybacts with Joseph Scott Morgan. In my opinion, at least,

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Speaker 1: life is a series of intersections. You go down this

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Speaker 1: road that you know, you just think that you know.

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Speaker 1: Everything that happens in your life is kind of this

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Speaker 1: benign event. You never know, however, when you cross paths

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Speaker 1: with somebody, how that person might change your life. Today

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Speaker 1: is a very special edition of body Backs because I'm

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Speaker 1: joined by one of the dearest people in my life,

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Speaker 1: my good friend Nancy Grace, and today we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the importance of education in

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Speaker 1: forensic science. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. Nancy,

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Speaker 1: wellcome to Jacksonville State University.

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Speaker 2: Well, I've got to say thank you number one. It's

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Speaker 2: a beautiful campus and I'm so knocked out by yourn

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Speaker 2: Forensics building. I think, of course, you'll never admit this.

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of this has to do with you.

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Speaker 2: I really do. You have brought the Jacksonville State Forensics

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Speaker 2: studies to the forefront and you should really be proud

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Speaker 2: of that. Yeah. Now, let me think, how did we

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Speaker 2: first meet.

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Speaker 1: You were still to the DA's office in Atlanta, and

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Speaker 1: that would not happen, and I was with the EMMY

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Speaker 1: and look, everybody, everybody in my world, in the medical

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Speaker 1: legal world, because you know, we're a lot smaller.

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Speaker 2: Here we go down the garden path.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, that's your new title.

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Speaker 2: Down the garden path, Joe Scott Morgan. No, well, get

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Speaker 2: to the point for Pete's safe. Be direct.

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Speaker 1: Okay, this is bodybags, all right, So here we go. Responsible,

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Speaker 1: we take our time. She is a responsive, okay, so

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Speaker 1: here we go. So yeah, you know, the medical legal community,

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Speaker 1: when you think about the forensic practitioners like forensic pathologists,

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Speaker 1: the EMMY investigators, and even people there at the State

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Speaker 1: Crime Lab, we're much kind of smaller group than your

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Speaker 1: everyday police officers that you're going to have coming in

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Speaker 1: and out of the DA's office.

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Speaker 2: Prosecutors all elite and special. I'm sure they want I'm

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Speaker 2: sure they're happy to hear about that.

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Speaker 1: Now. I don't know that we're a lead. As a

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Speaker 1: matter of fact, I stayed in the field, probably too

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Speaker 1: long because I didn't have good enough good stints since

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Speaker 1: to get away from all these dead bodies. But I

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Speaker 1: did wound up here at Jacksonville State and it has

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Speaker 1: absolutely been a blessing, and you're a big part of that.

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Speaker 1: You had mentioned how I'm a part of this.

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Speaker 2: I believe your honor objection non responsive. I will have

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Speaker 2: you declared a hostile witness across examine. How did we

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Speaker 2: first meet? Can I be any more clear?

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Speaker 1: Jo? Yes, we met. We met actually Nancy on a

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Speaker 1: telephone call, and that's really all I'll say about it.

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Speaker 2: Say the rest.

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Speaker 1: No, we met on a telephone call. And it was

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Speaker 1: at that point that you were looking for something that

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Speaker 1: you were missing from the medical examiner's office. What was

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Speaker 1: I can't remember. It had something to do with an autopsy,

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Speaker 1: and I think it actually had to do with a

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Speaker 1: toxicology report.

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Speaker 2: Oh hell, yes, it's okay.

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Speaker 1: So medical examiners never the forendsic. Pathologists don't take phone calls.

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Speaker 1: It's the investigators that take the phone calls. And so

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Speaker 1: I was on the receiving end of a bit of

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Speaker 1: your fury at that moment. Tom said, well, I don't

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Speaker 1: think I need anything to do with this woman. Yes,

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Speaker 1: actually did, but that's okay. So we started in conference.

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Speaker 2: Wait, I hung up on you because you what told

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Speaker 2: me you didn't know where it was? How can you

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Speaker 2: have an autopsy and declare COD not mod COD if

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Speaker 2: you don't have the toxicology report.

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Speaker 1: Well, exactly, and I'm sure that that's the question you

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Speaker 1: were asking. But if you knew how things operated at

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Speaker 1: the office at that point in time, it would not

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Speaker 1: be completely a surprise the Fulton County, that's right.

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Speaker 2: Oh you're gravy. Yeah, everybody there would hide under their

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Speaker 2: desk and they saw my beat up pond.

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Speaker 1: I didn't care if anybody walked through the door. I

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Speaker 1: was a friend to all attorneys, all comers, but I

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Speaker 1: always knew that I had to take everything with a grain.

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Speaker 2: Of salt, a bag of salt box.

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Speaker 1: And here's why. And this is the first forensic point.

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Speaker 1: The reality is this is that we particularly I can

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Speaker 1: only speak in my practice in medical legal death investigation.

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Speaker 1: We try to stay right in the middle of the road.

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Speaker 2: And self respecting medical examiner investigator would tell me the

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Speaker 2: DA the ADA that you don't have the toxic cology report,

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Speaker 2: yet somehow you have the manner of death. That cannot

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Speaker 2: be because until you have that toxicology report, you don't

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Speaker 2: know what happened. You might think you know, but until

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Speaker 2: you find out what was in the system, you don't.

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Speaker 1: Know, you're absolutely right. But here's the thing. You're here.

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Speaker 2: What's happening here? Dave? Mac take up? Dave, I see

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Speaker 2: you at the distance on remote. Do you hear him? Oh?

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Speaker 1: Every day?

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Speaker 2: It's hurting right now?

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Speaker 1: She This is assuming that I knew what the cause

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Speaker 1: of death was at that point. You wanted the damn

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Speaker 1: Talks College report and it didn't exist, and I couldn't

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Speaker 1: pull it out of my There you go, there.

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Speaker 2: You go, And that's how it all started.

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Speaker 1: That's how it all started. And you know, and then

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Speaker 1: you follow our relationship and the fact that you would

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Speaker 1: even consider having me on when you were certainly with HLN,

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Speaker 1: and and then I couldn't resist. I could never say

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Speaker 1: no to you. And I was still at my previous

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Speaker 1: academic post wound up here in Alabama, and you're actually

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons that I came here, because, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because the administration had seen me on your show and

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Speaker 1: they were like, you keep popping up on HLN and

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Speaker 1: you were with Nancy and I had a relationship with

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Speaker 1: them anyway. I've been teaching the police academy here for

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Speaker 1: years and years, and it's like, yeah, I appear on

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Speaker 1: Nancy Show, and I appear on this show and that

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Speaker 1: show and this show, and I was like my other institution.

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Speaker 1: They give me a hard time. They asked me things like, well,

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Speaker 1: are you going to be here for your office hours

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Speaker 1: and the entire time? Go on the shows? You would

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Speaker 1: mention my other institution. I came to Jacksonville State and

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Speaker 1: you would proudly say Jacksonville State. And they saw the

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Speaker 1: value in that.

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Speaker 2: What was your old place.

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Speaker 1: University of North Georgia, North Georgia College up in Delanga, Georgia,

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Speaker 1: and I helped establish the forensics program there.

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Speaker 2: You know, when you think about what you do and

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Speaker 2: what medical examiners do, Joe Scott or do you insist

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Speaker 2: on being called Joseph Scott?

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Speaker 1: You can call me anything you want. Joe Scott is

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Speaker 1: really my norm to gear with you.

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Speaker 2: Though, Norm Grett really.

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Speaker 1: De g Well, we are at a universe.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Look at Dave. Mackie's actually holding his head down.

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Speaker 2: He's trying to say my special name that you call me.

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Speaker 1: There you go. You don't want to know what Dave

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Speaker 1: calls me, but go.

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Speaker 2: Ahead, because and I'm not altogether jesting when I say

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Speaker 2: people would hide under the desk when I would pull

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Speaker 2: into the medical examiner's office because you know how long

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Speaker 2: medical examiner reports are. They're extremely detailed, as they must be.

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Speaker 2: But a jury, nor can I tolerate. I want to

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Speaker 2: hear it fast and furious hard. Now give me the

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Speaker 2: bottom line, because you don't want grrs like drifting off

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Speaker 2: during the middic of medical examiner's testimony. So and also

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Speaker 2: every line would be a minefield for me because I

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Speaker 2: did not understand all of the language or the implications.

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Speaker 2: So if somebody said, oh, when we were talking about

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Speaker 2: Ellen Greenberg the other day, Okay, if Ellen Greenberg died

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Speaker 2: in the space of the time of one workout, let's

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Speaker 2: just say one hour, and she was in ambient ambient

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Speaker 2: temperature in her apartment. Yes, there was a blizzard outside,

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Speaker 2: but they had the heat cranked up really hot, and

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Speaker 2: she was in the kitchen. Then how were her fingertips cold?

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Speaker 2: So in one line of the medical examiner's report, it

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Speaker 2: might say something like the fingertips were culled to the touch. Okay,

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Speaker 2: see that right. There is an element of proof that

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Speaker 2: tells me about fifty things. So you would have I

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Speaker 2: would have to go through each line of the medical

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Speaker 2: report and say, what does that mean, what does that mean?

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Speaker 2: And the doctors thought their time was too valuable for that,

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Speaker 2: and they're right. They're the physicians. They've got tons of

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Speaker 2: dead bodies, They've got to analyze tons of reports to

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Speaker 2: turn out they don't really have that kind of time.

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Speaker 2: But when you're preparing for a jury trial, you have

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Speaker 2: to be able to catch every nuance in a medical

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Speaker 2: examiner's report. So the way you speak on the air

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Speaker 2: makes it so understandable. You have a certain way of speaking,

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Speaker 2: and that's valuable bedside manner.

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Speaker 1: Well, one of the things you got it with Mese.

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Speaker 1: I take exception what you said as well. There should

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Speaker 1: always be time for as I know that you would

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Speaker 1: agree with this, for all the victims and.

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Speaker 2: Just because victims, yes, but not all the prosecuting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know you're the voice for that, and

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Speaker 1: we should, even more so in the medical legal community,

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Speaker 1: be the voice for the dead. I mean, we physically

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Speaker 1: have possession of the remains. We literally and this is

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Speaker 1: I don't want to get off and be too melodramatic,

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Speaker 1: but we hold the hearts of the families, you know,

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Speaker 1: because one of the big questions they always ask me,

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Speaker 1: you know, when I would go make a notification. I'd

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Speaker 1: made like two thousand in my career in person, and

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Speaker 1: so when I would you know, the first question families

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Speaker 1: always asked me was after they after I'd established the

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Speaker 1: person that died, they would say, where are they? Because

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Speaker 1: we're tactile, we want to experience that, we want to

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Speaker 1: hold on to them, and so we tell the tales

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Speaker 1: of the dead through the science. And many times there's

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Speaker 1: a detachment with forensic pathologists where they behave as though

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Speaker 1: that they don't have time for other people. And this

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Speaker 1: is the most human of all pract desist because you're

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Speaker 1: telling the tale of what happened to this person. If

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Speaker 1: you can't make yourself available for that, and that goes

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Speaker 1: back to objectivities too, you know, you made me thy.

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Speaker 1: Think what's up?

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Speaker 2: I've been thinking about my finances murder a lot during

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Speaker 2: the last forty eight hours because I had an hour

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Speaker 2: sit down with Steve on Solvs. Yeah, Kelly Gonsalvas's father.

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Speaker 2: If you don't know who Kelly Gonsalvas is, google her.

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Speaker 2: She was one of the four beautiful victims of the

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Speaker 2: Idaho murders. I believe at the hands of Brian Coburger

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Speaker 2: that's yet to be proved in court. And when I

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Speaker 2: say beautiful, yes, I'm referring to Ethan as well. When

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Speaker 2: I look at the four of them, they're just so beautiful,

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Speaker 2: full of life, full of potential, vitality, stars in their eyes,

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Speaker 2: the dreams of their futures. Anyway, speaking to him, and

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Speaker 2: he was talking about having to go to the trial

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Speaker 2: and what that was, hardship, it was going to be

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Speaker 2: on his family. Yea seven and a half hour drive

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Speaker 2: one way. It just reminded me of so much of

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Speaker 2: what I went through. But when Keith died. But do

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Speaker 2: what you're saying, the Medical Examiner report, the CEO d

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Speaker 2: the MOD is highly highly sensitive to crime victims' families.

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Speaker 2: Do you know to this day I've never read Keith's autopsy.

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Speaker 1: That doesn't surprise me. And if you, for whatever my

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Speaker 1: advice is worth, I would advise you not to.

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Speaker 2: I'm not I don't want to because you know what,

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Speaker 2: Joe Scott, it took me a really long time to

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Speaker 2: come out of that horrible place. Years. I think that's

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Speaker 2: you know what delayed me so long and marrying to

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Speaker 2: the point where I almost lost Lucy Lucy and almost

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Speaker 2: died in childbirth when I was old trying to get

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Speaker 2: past that. I've never read the autopsy report. I've never

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Speaker 2: gone to the same of the crime. I've never read

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Speaker 2: the Appella transcript because I don't want to go to

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Speaker 2: that spot. My children need me to be whole.

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Speaker 1: They do. And one of the you know, one of

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Speaker 1: the things if you remember the old and they do

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Speaker 1: it all the time on television, where they take they

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Speaker 1: take family members into a viewing room and they pull

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Speaker 1: the sheet back and the family gasp and there's some

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Speaker 1: ghoul looking guy that's you know, pulling the sheet back.

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Speaker 1: You know it is, it's it's really assaulting. And most

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Speaker 1: modern medical examiner's offices have gotten away from that. And

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Speaker 1: the reason why is that the family's already going through

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Speaker 1: enough and you further traumatize the family by doing that.

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Speaker 1: In order to achieve positive identification.

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Speaker 2: Should be done in so many different.

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Speaker 1: So many different ways.

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Speaker 2: I did not even want to see Keith in his casket,

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Speaker 2: and I remember, and I went into the funeral home.

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Speaker 2: I happened to look off into a chamber where he

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Speaker 2: was at a distance. I finally saw a tiny slice

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Speaker 2: of his face. Yeah, and Joe Scott, I passed out.

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Speaker 2: My mind just could not take it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's something that's burned into your mind for it.

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Speaker 2: It really is. I'm so glad to hear that practice

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Speaker 2: is out.

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Speaker 1: Not so.

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Speaker 2: My point is medical examiner's death investigators. The impact you

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Speaker 2: have on proving cases is amazing.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think that it is in our world. And

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Speaker 1: one of the things I try to convey to my

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Speaker 1: students here is that my kind of investigation is completely

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Speaker 1: separate from what the police do. Police are interested in

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Speaker 1: finding a bad guy, locking somebody up and getting to

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Speaker 1: the prosecutor and they can be prosecuted. My interest begins

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Speaker 1: and ends with the body, okay, and whatever they can

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Speaker 1: do with that data that we produce, which is I've

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Speaker 1: got we not I but we have enough to process

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Speaker 1: without getting into this mindset of getting outside of our

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Speaker 1: lanes relative to the job. We have enough on our plate.

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Speaker 1: You talk about cause of death, manner death, identification of

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Speaker 1: these people, notification of family. And so that's why in

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Speaker 1: a you know, in a the world that I inhabit,

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Speaker 1: I welcomed all attorneys, for instance, whether it's a defensive prosecution,

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Speaker 1: and just lay it out before them. And plus it

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Speaker 1: would give us a sense of what to expect when

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Speaker 1: we got on the stand, you know, because each each

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Speaker 1: one of you guys are probing for something different. But

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Speaker 1: I got to ask you something real quick here, particularly

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Speaker 1: considering that we're in this academic environment at jack State,

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Speaker 1: looking back through your the lens as a prosecutor and

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Speaker 1: having dealt with so many forensic scientists and practitioners and

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Speaker 1: field personnel. If we could, I'm interested, first off, very broadly,

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Speaker 1: what what do you see if you can kind of

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Speaker 1: come up with one sentence answer relative to the biggest

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Speaker 1: need as a prosecutor, what do you want to see

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Speaker 1: from a forensic practitioner that's going to walk through your

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Speaker 1: door as a prosecutor, that one element may be characteristic

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Speaker 1: that is really going to help you as a prosecutor

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Speaker 1: to do what you have to do and help the

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Speaker 1: courts too.

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Speaker 2: The number one thing, to put it in a nutshell,

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Speaker 2: the single most important thing is be prepared.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, do not come.

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Speaker 2: In my courtroom without knowing your case backwards, get forwards.

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Speaker 2: I will have already been to the scene myself, yeah,

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Speaker 2: without the police or anybody else with me, So I

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Speaker 2: can understand that is important as it relates to the body.

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Speaker 2: For instance, you can give me the trajectory path of

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Speaker 2: a bullet, but unless I've been to the saying, it

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Speaker 2: means nothing, as in laboratory conditions, So you must be prepared. Also, secondarily,

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Speaker 2: you have to be able to communicate your knowledge in

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Speaker 2: a way that's easy to understand. Nobody went to medical school.

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Speaker 2: Nobody wants to hear your Latin phrases or your French phrases,

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Speaker 2: not to give may that's to be okay, So long

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Speaker 2: story short, you have to be able to communicate, and

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Speaker 2: that is a problem with a lot of doctors because

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Speaker 2: they're so smart and they're so educated, it's hard for

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Speaker 2: them to break it down in a simple way to

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Speaker 2: make everyone understand. But when you're talking about different scenarios,

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Speaker 2: not necessarily for the medical examiner, but possible for the

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Speaker 2: death investigator, and the importance the critical nature of crime

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Speaker 2: scene analysis. Yes, you were talking earlier before we took

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Speaker 2: to the airwaves about various cases. One you mentioned is

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Speaker 2: Chris Watts may he write in Hell, who totally totally

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Speaker 2: disregarded the value of his wife, Shenan Watts, their children,

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Speaker 2: Celeste and Bella, Nico and Nico. Yeah, baby Nico yet

306
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Speaker 2: to be born. Yeah, he murdered all of them. He

307
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Speaker 2: was a pos in technical legal terms, cheating, going on

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Speaker 2: websites just for hookups, while his wife, you know, worked

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Speaker 2: to bring in the money and had the children and

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Speaker 2: raise the children. And I remember it broke my heart.

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Speaker 2: I looked in their home. She had a lamp just

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Speaker 2: like a lamp in our guest bedroom, and I remember

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Speaker 2: looking and looking for the right thing came then I

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Speaker 2: suddenly saw it and yay, it was on sale. I

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Speaker 2: think it was at Peer one. And I thought, I

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Speaker 2: wonder how long she took to decorate that home herself,

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Speaker 2: because I immediately recognized that we had gotten the same

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Speaker 2: thing and make everything just right. And I looked back

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Speaker 2: at the children's pictures before he murdered them. They were

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Speaker 2: often matching outfits and their hair was always done. And

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Speaker 2: you know that was her, Shenanne, doing all that.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely she was.

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Speaker 2: Nothing to him. Now to the crime scene. Now you've

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Speaker 2: got the home, of course where Shenan Watts was murdered.

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Speaker 2: But the disposal sight and you and I you really

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Speaker 2: opened my eyes to the excruciating aspect of their disposal

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Speaker 2: was out where he worked, and uh, and a dark

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Speaker 2: something I'll think of the dark. Yeah, refiner refiner fields

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Speaker 2: out in the middle of nowhere. Now it's significant to

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Speaker 2: me because he had worked there or worked near there,

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Speaker 2: So that was a place I would immediately look a

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Speaker 2: place where he had lived, a place where he had worked,

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Speaker 2: a place he passes his haunts, because think about it,

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Speaker 2: if you're going to hide out, you don't have to

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Speaker 2: blurt it out. Joe's gott think to yourself, where would

336
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Speaker 2: you go hide? Well, I guarantee you it's a place

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Speaker 2: that I could find you because it's going to be

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Speaker 2: a place familiar to Okay, so that's there. He goes

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Speaker 2: an a dark oil fields that is an open area.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I got to tell you one of the things,

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Speaker 1: you know, and as it goes to that that particular question,

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Speaker 1: we're in a very rural area here at Jaxell State

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Speaker 1: and we have a lot of well, we have a

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Speaker 1: lot of kids that come from Metro Atlanta and Chattanooga

345
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Speaker 1: and Birmingham are student bodies that way, but we have

346
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Speaker 1: a lot of kids that come from rural places and

347
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Speaker 1: guess what they're going to wind up going back to

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Speaker 1: rural places. And you know, people will hear bout my

349
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Speaker 1: career and they'll say, well, you worked in New Orleans

350
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Speaker 1: with a corner and you worked in Atlanta with the meme.

351
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Speaker 1: You've seen everything. No, I have it. I've never seen everything.

352
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Speaker 1: You've never seen everything. And you know what, when you're

353
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Speaker 1: a rural practitioner, you're going out to do forensics, it's

354
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Speaker 1: actually probably a tougher job because you have to be

355
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Speaker 1: all things to all people. I was just teaching a

356
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Speaker 1: class the other day and I was telling my kids,

357
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Speaker 1: these young kids that think they want to go into forensics,

358
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Speaker 1: and I was like, look, when you were all on

359
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Speaker 1: a scene. If you're in a twenty you've got like

360
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Speaker 1: a twenty person police force, you might have to be

361
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Speaker 1: the crime scene photographer, the crime scene tech. Oh and

362
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Speaker 1: by the way, you're also the beat unit that responded,

363
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Speaker 1: and then maybe you might have it bad.

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Speaker 2: I always took my own photos. I would look for ballistics.

365
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Speaker 2: I would visit every scene, witnesses, canvas in the neighborhood

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Speaker 2: all by myself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I know, but you know now, and you know

368
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Speaker 1: this when you walk into a courtroom, though. The first

369
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Speaker 1: thing that you know when it comes to forensics. They

370
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,800
Speaker 1: claim they don't you like it when they claim, but

371
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Speaker 1: it is claimed that jurors what they really they want

372
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Speaker 1: to hear about DNA. And when you start to get

373
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Speaker 1: up into that skill level and you're in these areas

374
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Speaker 1: of rural isolation, you know, how is it that that

375
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Speaker 1: practitioner their background has to be so thorough relative to

376
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Speaker 1: what they've learned prior to showing up on a scene

377
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Speaker 1: like out there in Anta Darko. You know, at the

378
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Speaker 1: oil fields out there, the day to prepare is not

379
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Speaker 1: the day of the scene. It's months and months in advance,

380
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Speaker 1: having done all of the training. And who could you know?

381
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Speaker 1: You think about this is the thing that always interests

382
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Speaker 1: me about that case and case is similar to it.

383
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Speaker 1: We always think about big city with mass violence and

384
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Speaker 1: all these things. And I don't think that people people

385
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Speaker 1: in up in Idaho didn't think those four kids were

386
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Speaker 1: going to get butchered up there, and that you've been there, Nancy.

387
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 1: That's an isolated place. You think about Chris Watt's isolated place.

388
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Speaker 1: They don't have the same resources. So I think, for me,

389
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Speaker 1: if you were prosecutor in that area, how do you.

390
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,719
Speaker 2: It's not like you're walking into an apartment in a

391
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,399
Speaker 2: Manhattan high rise where you've got four walls around your

392
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 2: crime scene and you can do blood spotder analysis in

393
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 2: the comfort of the air condition and bring in photography.

394
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,680
Speaker 2: Oh no, you are out in an oil filled and

395
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 2: you discover by deduction that the children have been forced

396
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:51,399
Speaker 2: into cylindrical oil repositories that are so narrow it pulled

397
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 2: the skin off their arms. I believe you said, d

398
00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,680
Speaker 2: armed gloving, degloving.

399
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 1: Well, you see the thing.

400
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:06,400
Speaker 2: I learned that turn from you, And you know that

401
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,400
Speaker 2: makes me think of a fox glove, flower or gloves

402
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,640
Speaker 2: I wore as a girl scattered to cotillion de gloving.

403
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 2: It what it is is it tore the skin off

404
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:21,399
Speaker 2: their arms as he stuffed them down into that cylinder.

405
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:26,640
Speaker 2: And now here comes an investigator. You got to look

406
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,719
Speaker 2: at all the dirt in the surrounding area, all the

407
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,439
Speaker 2: potential DNA fingerprints on those cylinders. How do you open

408
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 2: the cylinders? Is there a crank? Is there a handle?

409
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 2: You have to dig into the dirt. You have to

410
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,160
Speaker 2: bring out the dogs. And of course they found sNaN

411
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:48,679
Speaker 2: watts in a I would say shallow gray nearby. She

412
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 2: didn't get an oil coffin, yesff and birth.

413
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Speaker 1: Well, here's the other thing. That danger was a real

414
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 1: part of this too, because folks don't realize that that

415
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 1: was unrefined petroleum in there, so you have things like, oh,

416
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 1: you had things like toluene. So when they went in

417
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 1: to cases, yeah, I mean, so you're talking about literally

418
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 1: something you could clean metal with. These people that had

419
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 1: to go work that scene, they had to drop the

420
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: hatches on the side, put on rebreathers, and completely suit

421
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: up just to go in there and to retrieve those

422
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 1: bodies because if they had stayed in there, it would

423
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 1: have killed them too. That's what he introduced everybody in

424
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 1: that area too. So you can't anticipate what is going

425
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: to happen. You have to prepare for it, you know,

426
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: and try to understand that. You know, when you you

427
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 1: see a case like this and you think, well, how

428
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 1: am I ever going to get to the point where

429
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 1: I'm going to be up and running and functioning as

430
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: an independent investigator out in the field, all of these

431
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: things come flooding in and I can promise you don't

432
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 1: think that lightning is going to strike. You don't think

433
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: it's going to happen, And buddy, it happens. It's it's

434
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 1: going to be delivered to your doorstep. Even in the

435
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:03,640
Speaker 1: most isolated places.

436
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 2: I mean, think about every blade of grass. It's a

437
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:10,920
Speaker 2: potential source of DNA or evidence. And there you are

438
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 2: looking at an oil field and you have to process

439
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 2: the scene.

440
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:15,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

441
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I find that to be the most difficult scene

442
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 2: is the outdoor scene. It is I mean from your perspective,

443
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 2: it is that.

444
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: And Dave and I were actually recently talking about this jeez,

445
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: what's his name, the little boy Simon that we just

446
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: taped on the other day and out of Savannah, out

447
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: of Savannah, Georgia, and you know the mama had thrown

448
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: him away. Well, he wound up in landfill down there

449
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 1: in Chatham County. And those let me tell you something,

450
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 1: kudos to those police officers and FBI. They went in

451
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: there and removed all that garbage landfill. It's the worst

452
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 1: cases you can work.

453
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, They're so hard to do.

454
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 1: Hard to do, yeah, absolutely, and so it will. Absolutely

455
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 1: it's soul crushing sometimes when you look back, it's like

456
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 1: looking for a needle in a stack of needles.

457
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:08,199
Speaker 2: Hold on, I just posted a picture. I mean, for

458
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 2: anybody listening right now. Joe Scott says, Hey, guys, surprise

459
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 2: for you. I'ment Oh goodie, what could it be? I

460
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 2: come here, I said, is it me sitting down and

461
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 2: doing your show for you? And he goes, yeah, you ready, Dave? Okay,

462
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 2: So I posted his picture. Cheryl McCollum has already spotted

463
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 2: and said this is yes man.

464
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:47,959
Speaker 1: Hey, Cheryl, shout out to you. We're glad to have

465
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace here join us at Jacksonville State University here

466
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: at the Ramona Wood Hall, which is now home to

467
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 1: criminal justice and forensic investigations. It's something we're going to

468
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: do kind of a tour show Nancy around today, but

469
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 1: just some of the elements here.

470
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 2: I talk about one more case. Yeah, absolutely, jdi Arius okay,

471
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 2: can I tell you why? Jodi Aris? Okay? Obviously the

472
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 2: bathroom was important where Jody Arias stabbed Travis Alexander all

473
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 2: because they have been dating. They broke up because she's

474
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,880
Speaker 2: crazy and a wack adoodle. Not in the legal sense.

475
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: I think. If I have to listen to that woman

476
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: singer Christmas Carrol, you know I'll play that.

477
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,400
Speaker 2: Every time we cover it. I have to hear, oh

478
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 2: holy not. Make sure she can still hit the high note.

479
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 2: America's got talent behind bars. So obviously where she killed

480
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 2: him in the bathroom and outside the bathroom are the

481
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:50,400
Speaker 2: critical areas. But leave no stone unturned because what's in

482
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 2: the washer? Idiot left her digital camera in the sheets

483
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 2: she took off the bed, which were covered in DNA,

484
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 2: and the digiKam is in the washer. And what's on

485
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 2: the didg you cam a picture of her foot during

486
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 2: the murder and wearing pants that were found in her

487
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,719
Speaker 2: dresser drawers? I mean, how can you fight her foot

488
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 2: is near the body?

489
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and for so long, you know, because that's act

490
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 1: to look in the washer. That's actually the first case

491
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: that you and I covered to go really yeah, going

492
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 1: back back to then, you mean after.

493
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 2: I hung up on you.

494
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, after you hung up when you were at HLN.

495
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: This is a long after that. Uh and and so

496
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 1: that and uh In Trevon Martin. Those were the two

497
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 1: that we were covering. But anyway, with Jody Arias, that

498
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: was fascinating because you know, evil, pure evil, and.

499
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 2: Plus you shot a burden at me in the courtroom,

500
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 2: so you know it's personal.

501
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is personal. Well, it sounds like it's personal

502
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: because she's got all these people that are after.

503
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 2: Her for mess. Okay, I am not interested in another

504
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 2: man good, I raised one. I don't want to raise

505
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 2: another one.

506
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: I got to ask you though, with with Jody Arius

507
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: uh so much time had a lase between the time

508
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,959
Speaker 1: that she murdered Travis and the time he was found,

509
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 1: and we find ourselves in these positions as death investigators

510
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: many times. I still remember those photos from the crimes

511
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: in Nancy. I know you remember them, and from the

512
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 1: autopsy too. He was in a moderate state to advanced

513
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: state of decomposition by the time. And so one of

514
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: the things that we have to teach our students, and

515
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: one of the things I work on here at Jacksonville

516
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: State is walking through post mortem changes and just those

517
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: base elements that a lot of people don't think about,

518
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: but when we're trying to establish time for people to understand,

519
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: particularly from your perspective as a prosecutor, time is one

520
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: of those elements that might be one of the most

521
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: important points along the continuum of the investigation because if

522
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: you don't.

523
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 2: Have a time frame, yes, I need a tod.

524
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely the.

525
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 2: Whole thing because with the correct time of death, I

526
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 2: can rule people in and out very quickly. If I

527
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 2: have the wrong time of death, I'm.

528
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: Screwed right, And we've got a couple of times associated

529
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: with death. And just so folks understand, you have time

530
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: of death, which is an actual scientific or semi scientific.

531
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: People think we can do it, like we can get

532
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: it down to the minute. We can't. That's a fallacy.

533
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: And then you have time pronouncement, and that's a legal

534
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: thing that's like you know they're dead forever and ever, Amen,

535
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: they're pronounced dead. Those are two separate things of time

536
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: of death. What Nancy's talking about here is all of

537
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,719
Speaker 1: these elements when we're assessing riger mortis and libra mortis

538
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: and postmarnal avidity and stomach contents and all of these

539
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: changes that are taking place in the body. We have

540
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: to be able to again this idea, how do we

541
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: communicate that effectively to you as a scientist so that

542
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: you can utilize it because your job is not to

543
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 1: talk to the judge, not to talk to the defense attorney.

544
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: But those twelve people in the box, how do you

545
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: communicate that to them? And what tools do you need

546
00:30:58,240 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: from the forendsic.

547
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 2: Science be strought back. So I remember being in court

548
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 2: every day for so long, and it would be like

549
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 2: a tennis match when I'd either be questioning the witness

550
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 2: and I look at the witness and look at the jury,

551
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 2: look at the witness, look at the jury, look at

552
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 2: the witness, witness, witness jury, And when the witness would

553
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 2: be on cross with the other side, I look nowhere

554
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 2: but witness, jury, witness jury. To just say, it was

555
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 2: like nothing else existed, and I would be so extremely

556
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: irritated when the judge would suddenly, usually a man, no offense,

557
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: gentleman would jump in and say something like what what

558
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 2: what do you want?

559
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: Right? Right?

560
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 2: So it's so important, you know, how you communicate this

561
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 2: to a jury.

562
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: How how would if if you had a perfect forensic

563
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: witness on the stand, what would be your preference as

564
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: far as let's start off with level of detail and

565
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: how how to effectively communicate. I know that's very broad,

566
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: and I apology for that. But if we're if we're

567
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: forensic practitioners and we're trying to explain one of these complicated,

568
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 1: complex scientific constructs about the mechanism of death and all

569
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: of this, it's hard for us many times to rain

570
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 1: ourselves in all right, And I can, and I do

571
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 1: this with you on the air. I know that you're

572
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: doing it with me, because your brain is like screening.

573
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: Get to the point, get to the point, get to

574
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: the point, and that's hard for us to do. And

575
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: to have an effective witness in the forensic round. For you,

576
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: what are you looking for for that person to be

577
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: able to communicate somebody you've called to the stand that's

578
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: going to be testifying for the prosecution.

579
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 2: Number one, I would never put up a witness cald Okay,

580
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 2: I would have gone through I always wrote out my hand,

581
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 2: not a computer. Yeah, hand written questions that I would

582
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 2: go through with the medical examiner after I had gone

583
00:32:53,640 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 2: through his or her report line for line. Yeah. I

584
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 2: think the best thing to do when it comes to

585
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 2: medical examiners is the district attorney should stand right with

586
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 2: the jury with the report in your hand, true, and

587
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 2: go through it line by line first, ask general questions

588
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 2: and then let the medical examiner cannot help himself herself,

589
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 2: they have to expound. Yeah, So it's like asking a

590
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 2: lawyer to be brief. So in that vein you got

591
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 2: to let them go, but you will have to interrupt

592
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 2: quite often to clarify.

593
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and to get you know, get to the point.

594
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: I found it fascinating. I'm glad you mentioned Ellen's case,

595
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: Ellen green Burk's case. That autopsy report, which you and

596
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: I have both reviewed. A lot of that stuff is

597
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: what we refer to as boilerplate. You go in there

598
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: and some of those things and just here's a big

599
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 1: industry secret in case people aren't aware of this. Lots

600
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 1: of times when and I've heard them say this, forendship

601
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: pathologists will say they're talking, they're they're taping right, dicta dictating,

602
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: and they'll say standard documentation, standard documentation. And what that

603
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: means is that each one of the sections that's actually

604
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: their boilerplate statement, and the person that's typing this thing up,

605
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: it's going to be the standard. You can look at

606
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: these reports and they all look the same until they

607
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: get to the finer point stick.

608
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: In the right height and way the way.

609
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 1: That belongs to this and then you do injury descriptions.

610
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 2: You said something really interesting just a few moments ago.

611
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: I hope I'm not going to.

612
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 2: Death come forward, But you said a different time of

613
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 2: death and the pronouncement of death. Because that autopsy, if

614
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 2: my memory starves me correctly, he put the time of death.

615
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 2: Ellen's time of death is when they filled out the

616
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 2: death certificate. I'm like, Okay, that's not her time of death. No,

617
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 2: she died several hours before that. That's what I'm counting

618
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 2: on you to figure out. Man.

619
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a scientific ape, didn't didn't he? Yeah, it

620
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 1: seems like it's something like that. But because I found it,

621
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 1: I found it very It was so ridiculous, and you

622
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 1: you think about that, and you think about what and

623
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: maybe I don't know. I look at this now with

624
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg and I think, well, you know what, maybe

625
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: and this loops back to what we were saying. Maybe

626
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 1: they didn't see this coming. But baby, let me tell

627
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: you something. You've got to see it coming all the time.

628
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 1: You don't know when you're going to walk into a scene.

629
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 2: I was going to be reading that autopsy report going

630
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 2: this doesn't make any sense.

631
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 1: And that we're going to be talking about it all

632
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,800
Speaker 1: this time later. This poor beautiful young woman whose life

633
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,839
Speaker 1: was literally ripped to shreds, and her parents now up

634
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 1: in their years and just the ongoing three o the house.

635
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 2: It doesn't surprise me they had to sell their house

636
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 2: because they've sent their life savings about eight hundred thousand

637
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 2: dollars into fighting the suicide ruling.

638
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're talking about Josh and Sandy the beautiful huh

639
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 1: oh yeah, and lovely people. How many times have we

640
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 1: been on the air with them over and over and

641
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: over again, talk to them and just trying to cancel

642
00:35:58,520 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: them from me.

643
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 2: Saying the same thing over and over. But I can't

644
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,280
Speaker 2: get past that suicide. Really, twenty stabs to the back,

645
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 2: the neck, the back of the head.

646
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 1: No, it doesn't make sense. And then you've got a

647
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 1: neuropathologist that's saying that, a neuropathologist that's actually was hired

648
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: by the Emmy's office there that actually made the comment,

649
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: you know that post mortem, I don't see any kind

650
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 1: of injury here, So that can you imagine getting that

651
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: information as a parent. And then all of a sudden,

652
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: it's like a glimmer of hope. Oh, they're saying that

653
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 1: there's a post mortem injury now that proves something to

654
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: us in their mind.

655
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,280
Speaker 2: That she didn't do it after she was dead exactly.

656
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 1: So it's going to be I'm all in on following

657
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: the case. Continue to follow in the case.

658
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 2: You asked me about three cases, Jody Arias, Chris Watts, and.

659
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 1: One of your favorite cases of all.

660
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 2: Oh, Scott Peterson.

661
00:36:54,000 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to credit Dave with this because it

662
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 1: seems to be a pattern that is developing with this case.

663
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: Was he or I'm going to ask you, Nancy Grace question,

664
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: yes or no? Was he or was he not on

665
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 1: death row? Nancy Grace?

666
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 2: Yes?

667
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: And is he still on death row? No? Okay, So

668
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,800
Speaker 1: if you follow that line of logic logic, it seems

669
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 1: like his life is gradually improving. Here. What are the odds?

670
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: What are the chances that they're going to be able

671
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: to find something after all these years? Because this thing

672
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: is cycled innocence.

673
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 2: I just remembered something.

674
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, what's that?

675
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 2: I found a picture? Yeah that I forgot to work

676
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,280
Speaker 2: into our program we taped today. I found a picture

677
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 2: of the inmates having a luau at Mill Creek Pen

678
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 2: Dave Matt, Can you believe we did that? I am

679
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 2: so mad. I going to shoot my toe aluau for

680
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 2: Pete's sake? A luau? I'm getting We're doing Scott Peterson again,

681
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 2: so I can use that picture. Why is he I'm

682
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 2: not having a luau? Why is he having a luau?

683
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 1: Oh?

684
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 2: Why you luau? Okay, never mind, go ahead. What about

685
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,359
Speaker 2: the crime scene well, I blame you, Dave Max.

686
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: Well, I think that after all of these years, after

687
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: all these years, how in the world, because you know

688
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: they're talking about that, you.

689
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 2: Should really make this a simul cast because I'm watching

690
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 2: day It's hard.

691
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,439
Speaker 1: He's distracting, isn't it. He's a lovely man?

692
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 2: Okay? Now what about the claim.

693
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: That they've encountered or recovered new evidence as a result

694
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 1: of this effort on the part of the Innocence Project and.

695
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 2: The La Innocence Project.

696
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 1: The La Innocence Project. And I'm just curious, what do

697
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 1: you what's the potential here for this case moving trial?

698
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 2: And this is what I think. The judges just made

699
00:38:55,120 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 2: two critical rulings. One she is allowing allowed, it's done.

700
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:07,800
Speaker 2: The con duct tape that was found on Lacey's body

701
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 2: has already been tested and the results are under seal.

702
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 2: Now let's think that through the duct tape on Lacey's body.

703
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 2: Is it duct tape that was placed on her body?

704
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 2: Is it some other item that have you ever seen?

705
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 2: Like those six pack what do you call those things?

706
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 2: Get those things that hold them together floating in the water.

707
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: I have that her body intersected without in the water.

708
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 2: So any that that place is a cesspool. It's not

709
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 2: like it's crystal springs. No, it's all sorts of fisher people, gasoline, debris, waste,

710
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 2: all sorts of DNA is out there. So what could

711
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 2: be on that tape? Now, best case scenario in my world,

712
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 2: Scott Peterson's fingerprints would be that tape or his DNA

713
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,319
Speaker 2: on the sticky side of the tape. Is that going

714
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 2: to happen? Probably not maybe, but any number of foreign

715
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 2: DNA debris cells are going to be on that tape.

716
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 2: It was down at the bottom of San Francisco Bay

717
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 2: where she was weighted down with weights. Okay, that's already

718
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 2: been tested. The second thing the judge allowed is testing

719
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 2: as it relates to a burned out van that had

720
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,280
Speaker 2: a mattress in it in the area that they think

721
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 2: was blood. It may not even be blood. And I

722
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,879
Speaker 2: don't think it's going to relate back to Lacy Peterson. Well,

723
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 2: you know, I was going to tell you the fear

724
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 2: they have all new discovery, which you know discovery is

725
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,319
Speaker 2: the state turns over items that they are told to

726
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,839
Speaker 2: by the law, such as scientific reports that would be

727
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 2: medical examiner, crime lab, ballistics, all that that's scientific reports,

728
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 2: statements of witnesses, names and addresses and phone numbers if

729
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 2: you've got them of witnesses Brady versus Maryland. Evidence which

730
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 2: is evidence that tends to exonerate the defendant or help

731
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,800
Speaker 2: the defendant in the sense that one of your witnesses

732
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 2: has changed their stories, something about one of your witnesses

733
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 2: that could help the defendant. All that has to be

734
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 2: given to them. Now what I think is going to happen.

735
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,760
Speaker 2: They've got wide discovery that occurred at the time of trial,

736
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 2: and they're going to see every avenue of investigation, which means,

737
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 2: let's go back to Travis Alexander. Okay, first, I'm sure

738
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:41,919
Speaker 2: they looked at the roommates. Yes, of course they looked

739
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,359
Speaker 2: at the roommates. Did one of them do it? Now

740
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 2: they're going to see, aha, didn't you investigate Travis Alexander's

741
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 2: roommate because at one point you thought the roommate may

742
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 2: have done it? And the CoP's going to have to go,

743
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 2: well yeah, and that's going to be spun out. Just

744
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 2: every person they investigated is going to be a specter

745
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 2: in this case. I think that's what's going on.

746
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 1: So it's just going to be almost like total chaos.

747
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 1: It's going to be unleashed. Yes, yeah, well, I don't know.

748
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people I think it at minimum.

749
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 1: Do you think that he'll be granted a new trial.

750
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 2: I think it's possible.

751
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

752
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 2: However, if discovery is relegated to the new scientific testing. No,

753
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 2: I do not think that what's found in that van

754
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 2: is going to help the defense in any way. The

755
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 2: only way the duct tape found on her body could

756
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 2: help the defense is it may show some other debris. Yeah,

757
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 2: that occurred in the water met as you say, intersected

758
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 2: with the tape in the water. What they can do

759
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 2: with that, I don't know.

760
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's going to be really hard. And here's the

761
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 1: other thing, because I know you've spent a lot of

762
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 1: time in evidence rooms over the years, and if there

763
00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 1: is still any any retained evidence from this case, because

764
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 1: this case has been previously disposed of.

765
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 2: I told you about the case. Yeah, how'd this go,

766
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 2: mister Slayton.

767
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, my boss, mister Slayton.

768
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 2: Now I remember great great DNA, great great district attorney.

769
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 2: Excuse me, call me to his office and he says,

770
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 2: we got a reversal. Nancy, I'm okay, And I thought Oh,

771
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 2: dear lord, Plea said, don't let it be one of

772
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 2: my kidses had got to be retried.

773
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 1: It was not.

774
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 2: It was the case. It was actually tried when I

775
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 2: was in law school, and it went all the way

776
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 2: up to the Fifth Circuit, one step below the US

777
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 2: Supreme Court. And I can't believe the prosecutor did this.

778
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 2: And I know him, and he's a really good prosecutor.

779
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 2: He had he tried both defendants at the same time,

780
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,399
Speaker 2: and they had interlocking statements, like they pointed the finger

781
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 2: at each other. That's disallowable under the US Constitution, because

782
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 2: what if say, you and I rob a bank and

783
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 2: we shoot somebody in my statement, I go, Joe Scott

784
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 2: did it that idiot? You go, Nancy Grace did it

785
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 2: that idiot? If we both come to child together and

786
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,359
Speaker 2: both the first statements come in and you don't take

787
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 2: the stand, I can't cross examine that statement. And the

788
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 2: defendant under the sixth Amendment has a full right to

789
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 2: cross examine all witnesses against him. Oh see what I mean?

790
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 2: So interlocking statements. No, they brought in interlocking statements. That

791
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 2: was the reversible error. So I got one of the

792
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 2: defendants to retry I go to the crime scene, I mean,

793
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 2: excuse me, I go the evidence locker. Yeah, there was

794
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 2: one X ray it was not of my murder victim,

795
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 2: who was the little brother of an Atlanta PD. Okay,

796
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 2: so you can screw this up. And a baseball hat

797
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 2: that said kiss my bass. I'm like, what do these

798
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:47,959
Speaker 2: two pieces of evidence have to do with this case?

799
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 2: That's the physical evidence that was left. That was it.

800
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know when we're training people to be

801
00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 1: even an occupation called evidence custodians, you know they are

802
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 1: in charge and they controlled the infamous chain that we

803
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 1: all mad. Oh yeah, you really could, and all the

804
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 1: little potholes along the way that you can run a

805
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 1: foul of you over and over again. And it's not

806
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: just physically securing the evidence, but how do you document

807
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,919
Speaker 1: security of that evidence? And here's the other thing, when

808
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 1: do you know to dispose of evidence? Because if you

809
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: look at a Scott Peterson case, everybody thought that that

810
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 1: thing was over done and done. Oh my god, if

811
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 1: they call out for.

812
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 2: More in custody, can't stress enough? Yeah, okay, another story.

813
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 2: I'll try to be brief. I had a serial killer.

814
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 2: I could get him on one murder. One I needed

815
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 2: his DNA. We got his DNA. We chanced to the

816
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 2: crime lab. It matched, okay to what I wanted. It

817
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 2: wasn't DNA from this scene, but it was DNA some

818
00:45:55,200 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 2: other item, but I still needed it. The APD homicide

819
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:13,279
Speaker 2: detective had just lost his wife and he forgot to sign. Oh,

820
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 2: dear Lord and heaven now where you know? He took

821
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,840
Speaker 2: the guys DNA. He put it in a sealed envelope.

822
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 2: He took it to the crime lab. That person that

823
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 2: accepted it signed it. But this was like a week

824
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 2: before trial, and I saw his signature was not on

825
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 2: the envelope. So my chain was broken. I went back

826
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 2: to that lab and to the jail that day, and

827
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 2: I stood and watched through a glass window the jail

828
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 2: nurse take his DNA. I had her sign it, didn't

829
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 2: touch it. I watched her give it to my investigator,

830
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 2: and we drove it to the crime lab and retested it.

831
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 2: I mean, a serial.

832
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 1: Fact, the fact that you were able to But you know,

833
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 1: you think about that, and here's stuff that will keep

834
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 1: you up late at night. It does me at least,

835
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:08,399
Speaker 1: What did I miss? Is there something along the way

836
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: throughout my career and I know that I have. I

837
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 1: know that I have over the course of the years,

838
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: I probably out of all the cases I worked in

839
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:19,359
Speaker 1: New Orleans and Atlanta, and they were homicides. I often think,

840
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 1: you know those homicides in particular, was there a serial

841
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 1: perpetrator that was involved in this? And probably something that

842
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 1: I missed along the way or my colleagues missed something

843
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 1: we didn't pick up in But I'm saying all this

844
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 1: to make the point that you never can predict the future.

845
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: The only thing you can do is truly when it

846
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,279
Speaker 1: comes to the field of forensics. And I would say,

847
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 1: I would say in the law as well, you have

848
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 1: to be prepared, and you do, and as rude as

849
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 1: it is, you have to expect the worst.

850
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 2: You another difficult crime saying what's up an arson?

851
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 1: Saying yes it is, it is, And the reason it's

852
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 1: very you have to. And the thing that I take

853
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 1: exception to is that many people, I think, for whatever reason,

854
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 1: they don't include arson investigators among those of us that

855
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: are forensic investigators. Many times, and I submit that arson

856
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:16,399
Speaker 1: investigators are the most skilled forensic investigators that are out there.

857
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 1: It is and when you walk into a.

858
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 2: Scene that I developed an expertise in arson.

859
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you have to it is it's very difficult

860
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 1: because when you go out to one of these scenes, Nancy,

861
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 1: even if there's a dead body there, everything looks the same.

862
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: It's all charred. It's all either charcoal color or darker

863
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,240
Speaker 1: charcoal color. All you can make out of shapes and forms.

864
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 1: And these people are amazing that work because they can

865
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 1: see things that we know. Our dog yeah, yeah, I

866
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 1: sure have so amazing. Yeah, to check out to see

867
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 1: if there's any accelerants at the scene and the things

868
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 1: that they.

869
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 2: Can find smell accelerant underwater.

870
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, they can. They can actually Cadaver dogs allegedly can

871
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: smell cadavers.

872
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 2: And I meant to ask them. We actually had John

873
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 2: Buehler on today, who worked with bro Kinney on the

874
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 2: Scott Peterson case. Investigator. I meant to ask him about

875
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:14,800
Speaker 2: the scent dog because I'm pretty sure in Lacy Peterson's case,

876
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 2: a dog tracked her from Covena where the house was.

877
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:20,359
Speaker 1: I thought that I'd heard that.

878
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 2: I was all the way to the marina, the boat launch,

879
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 2: and then along the tree line and then out to

880
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 2: the edge of the water and it stopped. That's amazing.

881
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 1: It truly is because their spectrum that they're on the

882
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: dogs watching a dog. I know, it's amazing.

883
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 2: That's witness I ever had I heard that dog?

884
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:46,840
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, they're.

885
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 2: Not can't do much with him on cross examination.

886
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 1: No you can't. But you know, I've seen forensic pathologists

887
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,399
Speaker 1: who can't do much of it on cross examination either.

888
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,799
Speaker 1: But yeah, so with in and you know, and there's

889
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 1: so many different areas that we that we cover in forensics,

890
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,839
Speaker 1: and I think that one of the things that that's

891
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,840
Speaker 1: very curious anytime somebody says, anytime somebody says, well what

892
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 1: do you do and you say, well, I'm a forensic scientist,

893
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 1: the next the next question should be, well what kind

894
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 1: of forensic scientist are you? Because it's like, if you

895
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 1: have a broken leg, you're not going to see a psychiatrist,

896
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 1: hopefully you can go to an orthopedic surgeon. Well, if

897
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 1: you're a forensic scientist, you have to state and understand

898
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 1: who you are. And that's the biggest thing. There's a

899
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 1: lot of people that believe that they are that they

900
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 1: are in fact an expert in every field. And that's

901
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 1: you know, when you watch television, for instance, that's one

902
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 1: of the biggest disparities. They will take one person and

903
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 1: make them an expert in multiple fields. And I know

904
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: you've run across this, Nancy, because so many people.

905
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 2: You maybe remember something funny. People always come up to

906
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 2: me and want me to write a will for them.

907
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:59,399
Speaker 2: I might listen, either get killed or kill somebody, then

908
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:00,760
Speaker 2: come talk to make goodbye.

909
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 1: I know precisely what dark thing about a will. However,

910
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 1: you are constitutional experts, so I'll go with you on that.

911
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 1: If I have constitutional questions.

912
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 2: Will like three in my life, they were always like extremes.

913
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:14,799
Speaker 2: They worked out.

914
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:17,399
Speaker 1: Okay, I was hoping after this taping, could you help

915
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:22,879
Speaker 1: me establish an LLC. Well, look, Nancy, we're gonna shut

916
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 1: it down.

917
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:25,439
Speaker 2: Don't we have a ribbon cut? Yeah?

918
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: We do. Oh look there you go, Nancy. It has

919
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 1: been just a pure joy to have you here. And

920
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,320
Speaker 1: actually this is our this is our first tape.

921
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 2: I believe you got to go to Crime con UK.

922
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:41,319
Speaker 1: I know, isn't that something a little weasel? I love

923
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,799
Speaker 1: being over there. I love going to UK and got

924
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 1: there is not there's not. I'd rather be, as they say,

925
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 1: as I often say, I'd rather be Alabama comfortable than

926
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:53,799
Speaker 1: La Rich any day. I love to be here. I

927
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 1: love to come home to my people here. But over there,

928
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:59,720
Speaker 1: we're trying to establish relationships with universities at our kids

929
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 1: here in rural Alabama can go there and go study

930
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,399
Speaker 1: because there ain't no there ain't no better teacher than

931
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 1: travel as far as I'm concerned. But we're going to

932
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 1: shut it down for the day. And I got to

933
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 1: tell you, Nancy, what I.

934
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 2: Build out jos Gotte Morgan again, never ends, never ends.

935
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 1: D send me the build Nancy.

936
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 2: Right, So coming Dave Matt, make me sound young and

937
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 2: glamorous and make him sound old and decrepit. Can you

938
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:27,920
Speaker 2: do that? No?

939
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, let's close this thing out. Coming to

940
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:36,320
Speaker 1: you live from Jacksonville State University, the Gem of the Hills.

941
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:40,760
Speaker 1: This is Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body Backs.