Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Kristin Davis, and I want to know are
Speaker 1: you a Charlotte? You guys, it's exciting. On the podcast
Speaker 1: today we have none other than Candace Bushdell.
Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1: Oh, we have so many questions for you. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is the original Carrie Bradshaw, herself, her alter ego
Speaker 1: that she created many many years ago. We're going to
Speaker 1: hear all about it. I want to take you back
Speaker 1: because honestly, there are things that I don't even know,
Speaker 1: because in the beginning of the show I was just
Speaker 1: trying to like get through it, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: like figure out what was going on. We were filming
Speaker 1: like crazy.
Speaker 2: It was a lot.
Speaker 1: I didn't ask you questions that I'm like, why why
Speaker 1: didn't we take Candace out to lunch and ask her
Speaker 1: a bunch of questions? But it was too hectic, right,
Speaker 1: So like for me, I have questions about how did
Speaker 1: you come to write the column for The Observer in
Speaker 1: the first place.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's so interesting because I'm doing this
Speaker 3: one woman show called True Tales of Sex, Success and
Speaker 3: Sex and the City, which I've done. I actually just
Speaker 3: got back from doing it in Prague. The London Palladium, Wow,
Speaker 3: Budapest and Zurich, and then I'm going to go to Copenhagen. Great.
Speaker 3: I'm going to end up at Sony Hall in New
Speaker 3: York City on May sixteen, so great. I want people
Speaker 3: to buy tickets. But it's so in this show it
Speaker 3: really answers all of those questions. So it's really the
Speaker 3: origin story of Sex and the City. How I ended
Speaker 3: up writing it, how hard I worked to get there,
Speaker 3: why I invented Carrie Bradshaw, and what happened to me afterward.
Speaker 3: And I was really doing, you know, with the New
Speaker 3: York Observer.
Speaker 2: I was writing about women and.
Speaker 3: Relationships, sex and money, power and status in New York
Speaker 3: City all through the eighties for women's magazines, Got It.
Speaker 3: And in fact I was writing about my my Samantha. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but she had different names, of course, so in like
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty five, I think her name was Julie, and
Speaker 3: then she might have been Susan, and then she ended
Speaker 3: up being Samantha. But I kept changing her name. And
Speaker 3: she was one of those women who she knew everything
Speaker 3: about men somehow, she just knew everything, okay. And then
Speaker 3: I was writing for the New York Observer, and they
Speaker 3: asked me if I wanted to have my own column,
Speaker 3: so obviously I said yes, And it was Sex and
Speaker 3: the City. It had one foot in sex, one foot
Speaker 3: in society, and it was really pretty much the same
Speaker 3: as what I'd been writing in the eighties. It was
Speaker 3: about women and you know, dating and mating ritual in
Speaker 3: New York City, which are very heightened because everybody's everybody
Speaker 3: who comes here is really ambitious and they really want
Speaker 3: to make it, and so it adds another layer. So
Speaker 3: all the alphas, yes, exactly, all the alphas.
Speaker 2: And but the.
Speaker 3: Difference was that it was in a publication that a
Speaker 3: lot of men read. So I think the audience for
Speaker 3: the New York Observer was like sixty five or seventy
Speaker 3: percent men. So that made people feel like, oh, it's
Speaker 3: much more important because it's in a publication that, wow,
Speaker 3: men are reading, and you know, as we all know,
Speaker 3: if men are doing something, it's very important. Oh my
Speaker 3: god doing it, Oh my gosh, how crazy.
Speaker 1: So this was a big deal for you, Yes, and
Speaker 1: in general.
Speaker 3: In fact, when I got the column, I remember that
Speaker 3: moment and it was probably maybe it was the end
Speaker 3: of October of nineteen ninety four, and it was a
Speaker 3: warm day and I like ran up Park Avenue thinking, oh,
Speaker 3: this is my big break, this is my big break
Speaker 3: because I've been writing for fifteen years since I was nineteen.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, and and I just felt like this
Speaker 3: was going to be my big break. And it was
Speaker 3: and it was, and I remember all the door men
Speaker 3: were like, oh, good afternoon. This you know, things were
Speaker 3: somehow radiating off of this happy energy.
Speaker 1: So now when there's a hard question, is there any
Speaker 1: part of you at that point who could have foreseen
Speaker 1: what was to come?
Speaker 3: Absolutely one hundred percent. No. No, I mean I don't
Speaker 3: think anybody could have ye foreseen it?
Speaker 1: Right? No, me neither.
Speaker 3: And you know what I do know is people started
Speaker 3: reading the column right away because it was you know,
Speaker 3: it was about people who everybody knew.
Speaker 1: Okay, so that was another question that yes, got it.
Speaker 1: So they wrote something and like and you would change
Speaker 1: the names, Yes, I would change the names. But I
Speaker 1: went out pretty much every single night with my notebook,
Speaker 1: and I had Wow, these notebooks they were this big
Speaker 1: and they were little spiral notebooks and they could back
Speaker 1: then they could fit in your handbag.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: So you take notes, actual notes.
Speaker 3: I took actual notes and if if it was like
Speaker 3: kind of uncomfortable, I would run to the bathroom and
Speaker 3: take notes.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 3: So I would be in the bathroom like writing things
Speaker 3: down like you know, somebody said this, somebody said that, yeah,
Speaker 3: And then I would get back the next day and
Speaker 3: I would look at all of the notes and and
Speaker 3: construct a story out of it.
Speaker 1: You know, the people couldn't know they'd read it, and
Speaker 1: they yes, they know we're guests.
Speaker 3: Well they would know or they would guess. And you know,
Speaker 3: the reality is sometimes people came up to me and
Speaker 3: asked me to write about them. Wow, Like the story
Speaker 3: about the twenty something twenty.
Speaker 2: Something guys guys, Oh, okay, that was all right. So
Speaker 2: that was one thing.
Speaker 3: But then and those were two real guys wow, that
Speaker 3: I was hanging out with, okay, and I was like,
Speaker 3: this is like, you know, the best material. And there
Speaker 3: was also one about the twenty five year old girls
Speaker 3: when they go to the Hampton's. Yeah, the Hampton's was
Speaker 3: really yes, Staten Island, which was because.
Speaker 1: We couldn't for the Hampton's. Yeah exactly said when I
Speaker 1: pretend Charlotte pretends to be twenty seven or whatever, and
Speaker 1: then they.
Speaker 2: Get crabs exactly.
Speaker 1: The crazy storyline, yes, that was real, Yes, but not
Speaker 1: the part about Charlotte heading the crabs.
Speaker 2: Okay, but that.
Speaker 3: I mean, look, that's the kind of thing that happens.
Speaker 3: I had this whatever, crazy roommate, and she went she
Speaker 3: was always having sex and and she got crabs.
Speaker 2: And we shared an apartment and guess what did you
Speaker 2: get crabs from my room? I did. Oh, that's bad.
Speaker 2: They go on the towel.
Speaker 1: Oh, nobody tells you that, no, no one does. Listen, people,
Speaker 1: this is some information that we're going to end up.
Speaker 1: It will be definitely interesting to people. But you know
Speaker 1: what Canna says, Okay, because we're educating people exactly right,
Speaker 1: and this was a long time ago. Exactly still exists.
Speaker 1: But I'm sure they do the wait, go back to
Speaker 1: the real people part because I do get asked this
Speaker 1: a lot, like who was Charlotte? And in my mind
Speaker 1: Charlotte was an amalgam of different people, but I don't
Speaker 1: know if that's right.
Speaker 3: Okay, So Charlotte is the one character who I would
Speaker 3: say Darren really created that character, got it, That's what
Speaker 3: I thought.
Speaker 2: So you know, all of the other characters, there was
Speaker 2: a Miranda.
Speaker 3: There was a Samantha that specific or different people that
Speaker 3: you know, they were pretty specific. Samantha was pretty specifically
Speaker 3: one friend of mine again who knew everything about men,
Speaker 3: and I'm actually still friends with her.
Speaker 1: Oh great.
Speaker 3: And then the character of Miranda was like just this
Speaker 3: really ballsy, smart girl who she wasn't a lawyer, but
Speaker 3: she was somehow like in tech before anybody was in tech,
Speaker 3: so she was like really up on things, and she
Speaker 3: was just so she always used to say to men, listen, buddy,
Speaker 3: let me explain something to you.
Speaker 1: Cute and funny. She just didn't put up with any
Speaker 1: nice stuff, got it. Did they know that they were
Speaker 1: the people that the characters were based on, Yes, okay
Speaker 1: kind of woes. Did they come to the parties and stuff?
Speaker 3: One of them might have maybe the Miranda character, Yes,
Speaker 3: she probably did.
Speaker 1: Okay, she probably did. I mean, I don't know Cynthia
Speaker 1: knew that. I don't know that we knew this. I
Speaker 1: don't think we did.
Speaker 3: And she had short, dark hair, okay, interesting, and she
Speaker 3: was really she was just like super smart, just go
Speaker 3: get her woman. And then my friend Samantha, of course,
Speaker 3: you know the character's not really like her, anymore at all.
Speaker 3: But she was really beautiful and and she just knew,
Speaker 3: you know, everything about men, and men were crazy about her.
Speaker 3: So I always went to her for advice, like, you know,
Speaker 3: what do you think about this?
Speaker 2: The guys said this, what does it mean? Oh? Yeah,
Speaker 2: he was really that.
Speaker 1: That's helpful.
Speaker 2: You know that friend that you have who knows everything.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now let's back up to Darren a little bit. Darren.
Speaker 1: How'd you meet Darren?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 3: I met Darren because I wrote a story about him
Speaker 3: for Vogue. Oh, because I actually had a column in Vogue. Okay,
Speaker 3: oh my god, like Carrie. I don't know if she
Speaker 3: ended up having a column, but right, she did. So
Speaker 3: I had a column in Vogue, and I also wrote
Speaker 3: stories for them. I did profiles, got it And in fact,
Speaker 3: I just came across one that I did of Hugh Grant,
Speaker 3: which wow, I was reading it, I was like, God,
Speaker 3: this is such a great story. But he was very entertaining.
Speaker 3: He is very entertaining, Yes he is, he was. He
Speaker 3: was really interesting. He's very and Darren had come to
Speaker 3: New York to do Central Park West right right, right,
Speaker 3: So Vogue wanted me to do a story on him,
Speaker 3: and I think we met in New York and then
Speaker 3: I went to LA and also he met the real
Speaker 3: mister Big Ron Galotti. So then the three of us
Speaker 3: were friends.
Speaker 2: Oh got it. And Ron and Darren loved each other.
Speaker 1: That's friend.
Speaker 3: We used to hang out and in fact we rented
Speaker 3: a house in Aspen one year.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 3: So and then I took Darren for the first time
Speaker 3: to the Hamptons. And this was probably in nineteen ninety five,
Speaker 3: and I had just.
Speaker 2: I had just.
Speaker 3: Done a book deal for the columns Sex and the
Speaker 3: City to become a book. So that happened after I
Speaker 3: feel like I been writing it for maybe three or
Speaker 3: four months and a publisher said I want to make
Speaker 3: this into a book.
Speaker 2: Uh huh.
Speaker 3: So I told Darren and he said, oh, I want
Speaker 3: to option it.
Speaker 1: Got it? So that all have been kind of bam
Speaker 1: bam bam.
Speaker 3: Yes, But then I don't think he actually did option
Speaker 3: it until kind of a year later, and HBO wanted
Speaker 3: to buy it, and I had meetings with HBO and
Speaker 3: ABC wanted to buy it as well. That would have
Speaker 3: been different, and yes, that would have been really different.
Speaker 2: And some movie companies.
Speaker 1: Oh wow.
Speaker 2: I didn't take any of it serious.
Speaker 1: Didn't no.
Speaker 2: I was like really, yes.
Speaker 3: I was very like, oh, I only want to write
Speaker 3: novels and when the police are prize.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, adorable. So how did Darren convince you?
Speaker 3: Well, he we had the same agency, ICM right, and
Speaker 3: and HBO made an offer. And then my agent was like,
Speaker 3: you know, when I'm just gonna ask Darren again if
Speaker 3: you know he was serious about wanting to buy it,
Speaker 3: and he said yes, So I think he offered like
Speaker 3: a tiny bit more, you know, HBO, which at the
Speaker 3: time seemed like, oh my god, a lot of money, right,
Speaker 3: And and also I just loved Darren's sense of humor.
Speaker 3: And when I was interviewing him, we went to the
Speaker 3: set of Maybe it was Melrose Place?
Speaker 1: Was it in Chatsworth? You had to like drive far
Speaker 1: from We had to drive far again desert.
Speaker 3: It was in the desert, and one of the characters
Speaker 3: was like buried underground and I.
Speaker 1: Oh, we did some craziness.
Speaker 3: Was I don't know what that was, but ye, crazy, yes,
Speaker 3: And and he was like laughing and he was like,
Speaker 3: is this the funniest thing you've ever seen? And I
Speaker 3: was like yes, And I just thought, this man has
Speaker 3: the best sense of humor.
Speaker 1: I agree, Yeah, yeah, and it hadn't really been used
Speaker 1: in his other shows, yes, exactly.
Speaker 3: And and so I was just thrilled to be working
Speaker 3: with him. And then of course HBO and ABC still
Speaker 3: wanted it.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, So with Darren, Yes.
Speaker 3: Got it, which of course makes it even more attractive.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: You know, having a showrunner like Darren is incredible.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And and and he wanted to go with HBO because
Speaker 3: he he wanted some freedom. Yeah, he'd done the CBS
Speaker 3: show and and you know, I mean, I don't think
Speaker 3: any of this is a secret. I think he's talked
Speaker 3: about that. He wasn't he wasn't thrilled, so he wanted
Speaker 3: and HBO was brand new really in terms of making
Speaker 3: original content. So it was kind of like a freedom,
Speaker 3: like a free playground.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: And it was their second show after Arless, right and
Speaker 1: wait on, don't forget dream On? Our listened dream On?
Speaker 2: Why don't remember dream On?
Speaker 1: Dream On was a strange show, Emil one who remembers it.
Speaker 1: It was a show with this guy, Brian ben Ben
Speaker 1: I believe his name is. Do you remember this? And
Speaker 1: there is nudity, There is female nudity every week. This
Speaker 1: is partly why we were all so nervous our first
Speaker 1: season about what is this and whose perspective is it
Speaker 1: from and who is it four?
Speaker 3: Well they did. They definitely pushed those boundaries. I mean
Speaker 3: even more than because you know, Sex and the City
Speaker 3: was published in a newspaper, right, so it was how
Speaker 3: much details? Yeah, And also one of the things that
Speaker 3: we decided was we don't want it to be about plumbing, like,
Speaker 3: we don't want it to be about actual sex, because right,
Speaker 3: it's like, right, right, what are you going to say exactly? Yeah,
Speaker 3: everybody knows. Yeah, I have sech for sure.
Speaker 1: For sure.
Speaker 3: So it was like all of the things that went
Speaker 3: around sex. And then when it was on HBO, I
Speaker 3: mean it could be quite specific. And also when I
Speaker 3: was started rewatching it when it was on Netflix, Uh,
Speaker 3: I was like, I forgot how much sex everybody.
Speaker 1: Was having with you.
Speaker 3: I'm with you, you know, I mean Charlotte was having
Speaker 3: I know, so much sex.
Speaker 1: Rude.
Speaker 3: Yes, the I'm busy really like thought, I know.
Speaker 1: There's some certain things that I sometimes I'm like, I
Speaker 1: need to go back and read the book because I
Speaker 1: remember reading your book when Darren sent me this script.
Speaker 1: So I read the script first, and then I went
Speaker 1: and read the book and then I was like, whoa,
Speaker 1: the book is a lot, right, because it had just
Speaker 1: much more maybe less specifics, but more storylines. Not really
Speaker 1: Charlotte so much, but.
Speaker 3: It was it, you know, with the column and the book.
Speaker 3: Every week was a totally different column with different characters
Speaker 3: and different people.
Speaker 2: So you know that.
Speaker 3: And sometimes people read the book and they're like, it.
Speaker 2: Doesn't make sense.
Speaker 3: It's like, okay, yeah, because it was a little different,
Speaker 3: right right, right right.
Speaker 1: But it was a different time too. But like in
Speaker 1: the beginning because remember, I don't know if you remember,
Speaker 1: we did the whole we did the pilot that we
Speaker 1: had to wait kind of a long time and my
Speaker 1: mire right right, yes, Skip picked up, which was bizarre,
Speaker 1: but whatever. And then we got picked up. We did
Speaker 1: the whole first season without airing, which was interesting. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: it hadn't aired. Now that's kind of normal with streaming, right,
Speaker 1: but back in the way, very unusual.
Speaker 3: So but wait, I thought we shot the pilot in
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 1: We did, and then we were waited until we got
Speaker 1: picked up in nineteen ninety eight. Then we filmed really quick.
Speaker 3: What I remember was that summer, and it's I think
Speaker 3: it started filming in the spring.
Speaker 1: Yep, we would always come in the cold. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: have to pretend like it wasn't. Yes, And we filmed
Speaker 1: for like all of three months or something. We did
Speaker 1: all of it really really fast. Yes, came on the
Speaker 1: air fast. Yes, but we had no one had seen
Speaker 1: a thing, and we were just like like, are we funny?
Speaker 1: Are we sexy? Well?
Speaker 2: What are we doing?
Speaker 1: Right? But when I started watching back it, I always
Speaker 1: felt like the first season was kind of a mess
Speaker 1: in terms of I'd come from. You know, spelling was
Speaker 1: like a very much not a factory in a bad way,
Speaker 1: but like it was a very set medium, right, very
Speaker 1: structured medium that Darren definitely changed and juiced up and
Speaker 1: made younger and exciting. But like, there's a scene, there's
Speaker 1: a storyline in the Modelizer episode. Yes, was that a
Speaker 1: real storyline that was in your column? I mean this
Speaker 1: was something we would call the police now you know
Speaker 1: what I mean? Do you remember this guy is filming
Speaker 1: the models from the magazine?
Speaker 2: Now that's real?
Speaker 1: Now, okay, so get to so you know about this?
Speaker 2: How how did this? I?
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, like the Modelizer story is real,
Speaker 3: and in the first season, they took a they took
Speaker 3: a lot of stuff. A lot of the stories from
Speaker 3: the book, you know, they get changed around, and even
Speaker 3: in the first actually the first two seasons, a lot
Speaker 3: comes from the book, which I recognize because I know
Speaker 3: kind of where everything came from. But you know, it
Speaker 3: was just going out and doing research and getting people
Speaker 3: to tell me stories. So people love to tell you
Speaker 3: their story. I don't know if this happens to you
Speaker 3: where people come up to you and they're like, yes, oh,
Speaker 3: because of the show, let me tell you about this
Speaker 3: thing that happened to me, And you're like, right, right, right.
Speaker 1: But like someone told you? Did someone tell you I
Speaker 1: do this? Did the person himself who was filming these
Speaker 1: models secretly tell you this? Or did you just hear
Speaker 1: about it?
Speaker 2: Probably got it.
Speaker 3: But also, filming people while you're having sex with them
Speaker 3: is not a new thing. I know what it used
Speaker 3: to be like without consent is bad, Yes, it is,
Speaker 3: it is bad. But I remember when I first came
Speaker 3: to New York people were doing that in like nineteen
Speaker 3: seventy eight.
Speaker 1: Yes, like with a big camquarder.
Speaker 3: No, they had like hidden cameras, hidden cameras in their apartments.
Speaker 3: I mean, look, these are really really rich men, which
Speaker 3: we know they don't always follow I understand the law, right,
Speaker 3: So so that.
Speaker 2: Wasn't really a totally new thing. But yes, that was.
Speaker 2: There was.
Speaker 3: A guy who was filming his encounters with you know,
Speaker 3: with models.
Speaker 1: God, because the thing that's interesting when I look back
Speaker 1: on it, I hadn't remembered that at all. There's so
Speaker 1: much that I don't remember about the first season. And Carrie,
Speaker 1: you know, she goes over there and he's like, you've
Speaker 1: got to see my master work, my work of art,
Speaker 1: and he gets all has all those old TVs. It's
Speaker 1: very creative. And then the different models you know, show
Speaker 1: up and he's having sex with them, and you know,
Speaker 1: she likes a cigarette, like she's very unjudgmental, you know,
Speaker 1: there's not judgment or rror. Well, it was a different
Speaker 1: time also, I mean we you know, there are a
Speaker 1: lot of things that.
Speaker 3: You know, women just kind of sucked it up back then.
Speaker 3: It's truely, not literally, but you know, yes, I mean,
Speaker 3: I mean it's and things have changed so much and
Speaker 3: it actually makes me really really happy. And it is
Speaker 3: partly because of sex and the city. Because sex and
Speaker 3: the city. You know, it's it has made women so
Speaker 3: much more aware and emboldened. Is kind of emboldened and
Speaker 3: given them a new way to look at their lives.
Speaker 2: And you know, now.
Speaker 3: When I, you know, I talk to young women, I'm
Speaker 3: still covering dating for whatever reason.
Speaker 1: I love it, which is it's great. Is not so
Speaker 1: great right now for anybody. For sure, dating is hard,
Speaker 1: But I'm glad that you're covering it. Yes, that's helpful.
Speaker 2: Yes, but.
Speaker 3: You know, women have just they've just changed their attitude
Speaker 3: so much and they know. Now I hear a lot
Speaker 3: of women saying, you know, we don't even think heterosexual
Speaker 3: relationship are so good for us anymore, which is something
Speaker 3: that you would never have heard. In the mid nineties.
Speaker 3: There was no woman who would ever say, you know,
Speaker 3: I question the validity of the heterosexual relationship and being
Speaker 3: secondary to a man.
Speaker 2: It was kind of a given.
Speaker 3: And now women really they don't accept that. I think
Speaker 3: that's amazing. I think it's great, and I think it's amazing.
Speaker 1: Wow. So it's so great because this is one of
Speaker 1: the reasons I wanted to do the podcast, is because
Speaker 1: I feel like the storylines and the writing and the
Speaker 1: subject matter is still so relatable. And some things have changed,
Speaker 1: but some things haven't, and being able to look at
Speaker 1: those things, you would think more things would have changed,
Speaker 1: and some haven't changed at all. And then some like
Speaker 1: what we're talking about in terms of women, have changed
Speaker 1: where And I think some of it is because we
Speaker 1: pulled the lid off just talking about it, Like, just
Speaker 1: talking about it is so powerful.
Speaker 2: Yes, it is, because if you're not.
Speaker 1: Talking about it or feeling free to talk about it,
Speaker 1: how are we ever going to figure stuff out? How
Speaker 1: are we ever going to know all the things that
Speaker 1: are going on or all the choices that you have,
Speaker 1: or what it might be like to make these choices
Speaker 1: or make these choices. You know what I'm saying? Yes, absolutely,
Speaker 1: I absolutely Okay, So let's get back to the real
Speaker 1: people for a second, because I get a lot of
Speaker 1: questions about this. I'm sure you do too. So there's
Speaker 1: real Miranda obviously, a real mister Big, and a real Samantha,
Speaker 1: and then not a real me, which I kind of
Speaker 1: knew because no one knew what to do with me
Speaker 1: in the beginning, which is totally fine. And Michael Patrick
Speaker 1: says that when he came on to he was like
Speaker 1: I don't know how to write.
Speaker 2: For that one.
Speaker 1: And then Jenny Biggs came who grew up on the
Speaker 1: Upper East Side, and she did know how to write
Speaker 1: for me, so that helped kind of give me something
Speaker 1: more like a through line that made sense, I guess.
Speaker 1: And also, I mean that's how it often is when
Speaker 1: a TV show starts. You know, you don't really know
Speaker 1: right exactly. So as you were watching the show develop,
Speaker 1: what were your thoughts on how Darren and company were writing?
Speaker 2: You know, honestly, I always loved it. Oh good.
Speaker 3: I always thought the show was first of all funny, yes,
Speaker 3: and you know, the column was is funny, and and
Speaker 3: you know, the humor is something that for me, it's
Speaker 3: like unavoidable, right, I want to try to write seriously,
Speaker 3: but but there's always this sort of deep humor that
Speaker 3: comes across, and that really came across in this series.
Speaker 3: And also, you know, it was a time like in
Speaker 3: the nineties when women were a little bit badass, you know,
Speaker 3: it was it was it was like, you know, we
Speaker 3: can't we rule this town and we don't have to
Speaker 3: put up with, you know what men say, because we
Speaker 3: you know, we have each other's backs and we're a
Speaker 3: little group, and there's power in this friendship. And the
Speaker 3: friendship part is so real and so important in New
Speaker 3: York City because that is a real thing in this
Speaker 3: city where there are actually more women than men, and
Speaker 3: it's like, if you don't have female friends here, you're
Speaker 3: gonna have a very hard time surviving.
Speaker 1: Right, And I do think that is what really has
Speaker 1: resonated over time with the show. Yes, and thank god,
Speaker 1: you know, and I know there were different people who
Speaker 1: felt different ways at different times of the long trajectory
Speaker 1: of Sex and the City about whether people should have
Speaker 1: gotten married or should not have gotten married, et cetera.
Speaker 1: I get that, but I also feel like we've now
Speaker 1: been through so many phases and the remaining thing is
Speaker 1: the bond.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, exactly exactly, And you know, no, I always
Speaker 3: loved the show. Oh good, I thought it was fantastic good.
Speaker 1: I didn't know for sure. I didn't know for sure.
Speaker 2: I always didn't know. I didn't know if it was weird.
Speaker 1: Like like when you say, so this was your you know,
Speaker 1: your kind of almost like you know, research thing that
Speaker 1: you were doing for years and years and years where
Speaker 1: you're out and you're taking notes and you're studying people,
Speaker 1: and you know these people and you're hearing stories and everything,
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden it gets kind of
Speaker 1: taken over here, you know, into a TV show. I
Speaker 1: didn't know if that was weird.
Speaker 3: You know, people always ask that question, and you know,
Speaker 3: for me, no, good, it was never you know, it
Speaker 3: was never strange or I mean, maybe there would be
Speaker 3: some things that I know. I mean, honestly, there was
Speaker 3: never anything that was strange or uncomfortable for me because
Speaker 3: I was always writing.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: I mean, I've had like a lot of New York
Speaker 3: Times bestsellers, so you had writing novels and you know,
Speaker 3: and I had an opportunity to be on TV and
Speaker 3: like have my own TV show and all of that
Speaker 3: V one thing.
Speaker 2: It was VH one.
Speaker 3: I had that this show on VH one, right, I
Speaker 3: think it was like one of the first reality shows,
Speaker 3: which is crazy, which is kind of crazy. Yeah, And
Speaker 3: and then I was you know, then there were people
Speaker 3: who always wanted to make the real life version of
Speaker 3: Sex and the City, which was interesting and I was like, no,
Speaker 3: why because there's already a TV show that's for sure amazing, right,
Speaker 3: And then I was on another reality show and the
Speaker 3: fact does like, I just say that's sitting around.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I means a lot of sitting around. It's it's
Speaker 1: just it's true. I was like, I couldn't. And then
Speaker 1: even when I had that show on VH one and
Speaker 1: I had to sit in front of the mirror for
Speaker 1: two hours.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's the worst.
Speaker 3: I was like, this will turn you into a narcissist.
Speaker 1: It could. I think it can do numerous things, right,
Speaker 1: it continue into the narcissists. It can also exacerbate all
Speaker 1: of your insecurities that you ever had in your life. Right,
Speaker 1: And maybe those are the two same things. I don't know,
Speaker 1: but it is rough.
Speaker 2: To have to do. I was like, can't.
Speaker 1: I can't do it. It is rough.
Speaker 2: I can't do it.
Speaker 1: I can't.
Speaker 2: I can't look at my face for two hours.
Speaker 1: It's hard. It's really really hard. It's really really hard
Speaker 1: to wait. Let's go back for a second. Okay, So
Speaker 1: Darren's got the show and it's getting you know, first
Speaker 1: we were small, as you remember, and then you know,
Speaker 1: it grew and go and grew. You're over still doing
Speaker 1: your writing, doing different things. You've got different things going on.
Speaker 1: So you weren't like focused on the show necessarily, No, okay.
Speaker 1: I mean, in fact, well, they used to send me
Speaker 1: the DVDs or the vhs.
Speaker 2: H they were vhs.
Speaker 3: They would send them to me on Wednesday, right, and
Speaker 3: and you know, I would watch it like it was
Speaker 3: going to be good. And then I always thought it
Speaker 3: was great, okay, good, and then people would watch it
Speaker 3: on Sundaday, yeah, and and be really excited about it.
Speaker 3: And I just thought, oh, you know, I had a
Speaker 3: book that was turned into a TV show.
Speaker 2: So and I mean.
Speaker 3: It was really like the first two seasons, I wasn't
Speaker 3: you know, I guess it was a hit, but it wasn't.
Speaker 1: It wasn't a big hit till third Yeah. I got
Speaker 1: for that, Emmy. That's when I felt myself like what, yes.
Speaker 3: I mean it was like after the second season that
Speaker 3: it felt like it really took off. And in fact,
Speaker 3: I actually thought it was going to be over when
Speaker 3: mister Big dumps Carrie and marry somebody else, because that
Speaker 3: happened in my real life.
Speaker 2: Oh did it? Yes?
Speaker 1: I really there was a time when walking around New
Speaker 1: York people would be like, the real mister Big did this,
Speaker 1: and I just be like, I can't deal with that,
Speaker 1: because we have to deal with our fictional selves. Right,
Speaker 1: So there's a time that I tuned it out, so
Speaker 1: I didn't really know how it played out, yes for
Speaker 1: you personally, Yes, so that happened.
Speaker 3: In real life and that and I thought, oh, that
Speaker 3: would be like that, that'll be the end, the end,
Speaker 3: got it. You know, it's like it's told the whole
Speaker 3: story of Carrie and mister Big and he you know,
Speaker 3: ends up marrying somebody else, which is like such a
Speaker 3: New York story. Yes, and and so I really thought
Speaker 3: that would be that's the end.
Speaker 2: Got this series.
Speaker 1: Got it? And then it kept going and it's still going. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, which is really incredible, isn't it incredible? I
Speaker 1: agree that it's incredible. I mean, we're so lucky to
Speaker 1: be able to keep going with these characters, I think.
Speaker 1: And we're so lucky to have the writing that we've
Speaker 1: always had and to have the characters that you started,
Speaker 1: because nothing would happen without that, you know, Like, characters
Speaker 1: and writing is the whole. It's the whole thing. I Mean.
Speaker 1: People talk about actors, and I understand actors are where
Speaker 1: you're looking at, but if you don't have the material,
Speaker 1: it's not going to succeed, you know, there's almost nothing
Speaker 1: you can do to make it succeed. You can be
Speaker 1: super charismatic and it's still not going to work, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, I mean I do always say it like
Speaker 3: it kind of has to be on the page. If
Speaker 3: it's not on the page, it's not going to work
Speaker 3: on the screen. I agree.
Speaker 1: I mean, it might work for a second, you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, but it won't work over time. So
Speaker 1: in the real life, when so mister Big previous to
Speaker 1: him marrying someone else on the show, which I didn't
Speaker 1: really I wasn't aware of the parallels still happening with life.
Speaker 1: Were you happy with how they developed mister Big and carry?
Speaker 1: How did you feel about that, because it's very interesting
Speaker 1: to look back on it. I think, you know it is.
Speaker 3: And at the time, I I know what, I didn't.
Speaker 3: I didn't think about it that much. It seemed natural
Speaker 3: to me.
Speaker 1: Uh huh.
Speaker 2: And you know, but now.
Speaker 3: With all this social media, a lot of people question it.
Speaker 3: And no, I mean, I mean, you know, in real life,
Speaker 3: you know, the real mister Big was. He was a
Speaker 3: you know, he was a great guy, but he was
Speaker 3: also a very powerful man, and you know, powerful men
Speaker 3: in New York City at that time were really a
Speaker 3: specific breed. You know, they threw things, They threw phones,
Speaker 3: they threw this, they threw that.
Speaker 1: So in some ways, mister Big was even softer than
Speaker 1: the real deal, because I don't remember him throwing a phone.
Speaker 2: No, he didn't throw a phone.
Speaker 3: But in real life, I think the real mister Big
Speaker 3: had thrown a phone and it ended up in page six.
Speaker 2: Wow of course, wow wow wow. But he's he was actually.
Speaker 3: A great guy, and I was really in love with him,
Speaker 3: and but it just we were in just totally different places,
Speaker 3: like he was winding down. He actually left New York
Speaker 3: and went and lived and still lives in Vermont. And
Speaker 3: now when I look at his life, I'm like, why
Speaker 3: didn't I.
Speaker 1: Go for that?
Speaker 3: Living on a farm in New Hampshire would Well, now
Speaker 3: I think I would. Interesting now that I'm like old,
Speaker 3: I'm like, I could do that.
Speaker 1: That is so interesting. Oh how we change? Yes, but
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's right.
Speaker 1: Okay, too, Okay, but it's an interesting fantasy. In fantasy,
Speaker 1: I had heard that about him, which I did think
Speaker 1: was also super interesting.
Speaker 3: Yes, And also when I look back on the book,
Speaker 3: I realized he was looking for a very serious relationship.
Speaker 3: He wanted to get married, and I was so not
Speaker 3: there got it. I mean he was saying things like, oh,
Speaker 3: we should have a baby, and I was like.
Speaker 1: No way, Yes, that's interesting. So I thought that we
Speaker 1: didn't put that in. We don't have that. No, wow,
Speaker 1: very fast, so.
Speaker 3: That you know, so that you know, so in the
Speaker 3: I mean, it followed a trajectory. But I feel like
Speaker 3: in the first two seasons it was pretty it was
Speaker 3: pretty realistic.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, good, that's good to me.
Speaker 3: I wonder I like, you know, you know the way
Speaker 3: Carrie was like even when she goes to the church
Speaker 3: to see his mother. Right, it's like, you know, that
Speaker 3: was the kind of stuff that we did back then, right,
Speaker 3: I know, it's kind of I mean it's yeah, it's
Speaker 3: now when I look back on it, it's like, I
Speaker 3: don't even know how we did that. But I mean
Speaker 3: there was like a guy was in love with when
Speaker 3: I was twenty years old, and I used to go
Speaker 3: and sit on a park bench in front of his
Speaker 3: building and wait.
Speaker 2: For him to come home. I mean, come, oh and
Speaker 2: wany god, nobody would ever do that.
Speaker 1: Well, no, we wouldn't have to. We would stalk them
Speaker 1: on Instagram or TikTok or whatever exactly right, exactly, but
Speaker 1: you'd have to go in person.
Speaker 3: It's like, you know, it's like, yeah, I mean so
Speaker 3: I get it because I feel like I was you know,
Speaker 3: it's a girl. Yeah, yeah, he's like, I'm going to
Speaker 3: get this guy. I'm going to show up and he's
Speaker 3: going to fall in love with me. Well, I mean
Speaker 3: nowadays it's like that.
Speaker 2: Will not work. But it won't.
Speaker 3: No, that's what these experts on TikTok say.
Speaker 2: The men, really the men, The men.
Speaker 1: Okay, what do men say?
Speaker 2: They say things like don't approach a guy in a bar.
Speaker 3: What, Yes, because it's such odd behavior that the man
Speaker 3: will immediately think that you are, you know, unhinged.
Speaker 1: This is bizarre.
Speaker 2: This is bizarre.
Speaker 1: And this is another change that is fascinating. Yes, and
Speaker 1: I would have seen this coming.
Speaker 3: Never because I remember we used to go up to
Speaker 3: men and bars all.
Speaker 1: The time, right, and I thought that was a good thing.
Speaker 2: Yes, it was.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so weird. See that's a weird and interesting thing too,
Speaker 1: because like in some ways we're talking about women who
Speaker 1: are I don't know older, questioning you know the validity
Speaker 1: of a heterosexual relationship. Then on the other hand, we
Speaker 1: have men on TikTok saying, don't approach a man in
Speaker 1: bar because they might think you're crazy. Like, it's a
Speaker 1: very weird dichotomy going on.
Speaker 3: It is, it's wacky, it is there's been a lot
Speaker 3: of It feels like there's a lot of separation between
Speaker 3: the sexes just sad yes, in a way that there
Speaker 3: wasn't before. And I also see a lot of women
Speaker 3: on these dating reality shows. If the guy voted Republican,
Speaker 3: they ain't ending up with him.
Speaker 1: They're like, no, I don't watch any of those shows
Speaker 1: because I find them depressing. But anyone who might be
Speaker 1: on those shows, listen to Candace because she knows what
Speaker 1: she's saying. Okay, I know nothing about that. Now let
Speaker 1: me get back on track of I have literally so
Speaker 1: many questions for you, and then we have to think
Speaker 1: about the actual episode. Right, Yes, but this is so cool.
Speaker 1: So let's just go back to where we were in
Speaker 1: terms of the show and third season when it hit big,
Speaker 1: right when we got nominated for the Emmy, which we
Speaker 1: never believed would happened. I remember Darren and I used
Speaker 1: to make jokes first and second season about him maybe
Speaker 1: one day we would get nominated for a Cable Ace Award,
Speaker 1: something that they got rid of real quick, do you remember,
Speaker 1: because Cable became like the prestige you know, content provider, right,
Speaker 1: and then suddenly one morning we get the call that
Speaker 1: we have been nominated for an Emmy.
Speaker 3: It was insane. See it didn't seem strange to me.
Speaker 3: Oh no, because it was like, the show's brilliant. I
Speaker 3: always thought the show was brilliant. I did got it.
Speaker 3: That's good, you know, good for you.
Speaker 1: So I thought it seemed you know, it seemed very normal.
Speaker 3: But you know, I wasn't person right, you didn't come
Speaker 3: from the TV from the TV world. So for me
Speaker 3: it was like, oh, of course we got nominated, got
Speaker 3: it for an Emmy. But I remember I was staying
Speaker 3: at Darren's house during the ammy's and he was like, oh,
Speaker 3: we got nominated. You know you're gonna go. I didn't
Speaker 3: get to go. I had to sit in the HBO room.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, and then I could go to the
Speaker 3: parties afterward.
Speaker 2: But they're the best part. But yeah, it was like
Speaker 2: it was really exciting.
Speaker 1: It was exciting. I mean, it was exciting for us
Speaker 1: because I don't think that we thought that it would
Speaker 1: ever happen, right, And I think that we thought that
Speaker 1: it was fine. I think that we thought we would
Speaker 1: be like a little cult hit, you know, like Larry Sanders, right,
Speaker 1: like that type of like beloved in the industry maybe
Speaker 1: but not widespread. And then you know the fact that
Speaker 1: people cared and were so invested.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just so amazing, really invested.
Speaker 3: And I remember at the New York Observer them saying
Speaker 3: to me, I guess it was like maybe it was
Speaker 3: like the when the third season started, I'm saying, like,
Speaker 3: you know what, now Sex in the City is made
Speaker 3: being single really really cool. Wow, being single in your
Speaker 3: thirties and everybody's watching it.
Speaker 2: And I was like, wow, that's great.
Speaker 1: It is great, And I mean wish it were still
Speaker 1: true because I still feel like people just have this
Speaker 1: desire to couple everybody up, you know, don't you feel
Speaker 1: I mean, even though I think women maybe have more choices,
Speaker 1: I think like society at large is always like why
Speaker 1: are you single? Why are you single? Why are you single?
Speaker 3: Well, you know, now there are more and more single women,
Speaker 3: which is great. I think it's like fifty one percent
Speaker 3: of the population. No way, Yes, fifty one percent of
Speaker 3: women over.
Speaker 2: Eighteen are single. That's amazing.
Speaker 3: Yes, and it used to be forty three percent in
Speaker 3: like twenty twelve. Wow, it's increasing, and it really is
Speaker 3: increasing amongst young women. So it's really the young women
Speaker 3: who I see on social media who are questioning, like,
Speaker 3: you know, what am I getting out of a heterosexual relationship?
Speaker 3: You know, I'm doing all this work. Yes, he's kind
Speaker 3: of disrespectful, he's cheating on me. Oh no, and he's
Speaker 3: not treating me the way that I want to be treated,
Speaker 3: and I'm super stressed, and I just don't I.
Speaker 2: Think that's amazing.
Speaker 1: So I wish I had asked those questions in my
Speaker 1: twenties for goodness sake, I know, but we couldn't.
Speaker 3: No, no, we had to toe the line of you know,
Speaker 3: a relationship much weird of us.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't even know if I thought it
Speaker 1: was going to save me. I just felt like I
Speaker 1: was supposed to do that, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: And I just also like, when I look back at
Speaker 1: the shows from first season, mister Big is so aloof
Speaker 1: to Gary and she is so adorable and trying so
Speaker 1: hard and trying different things tru I mean, and she's
Speaker 1: kind of trying to hide herself. And then at one
Speaker 1: episode she talks about like, I don't even show him
Speaker 1: my real self exactly. It's such a great, great episode
Speaker 1: because you know, she's amazing. Of course she should show
Speaker 1: him her real self. She's unbelievable, right, And obviously that
Speaker 1: is also just maturity. It's a conversation you have with
Speaker 1: yourself at a certain point of like, if I'm actually
Speaker 1: going to be with someone, I need to actually be
Speaker 1: my authentic self obviously. But it was so great because
Speaker 1: and he would do that thing where she would try
Speaker 1: to get him to talk, like for like the whole
Speaker 1: beginning of the first season, and he would evade, evade, evate,
Speaker 1: But then his actions like he'd she says, I want
Speaker 1: to stand alone with you, you know, stand still with you
Speaker 1: in the city of seven million people or whatever it
Speaker 1: was back then, and he's like, oh, you're in the
Speaker 1: back and I'm in the front of the park. He
Speaker 1: complains and complains, but then he stands still with her
Speaker 1: under the moonlight. Do you remember this, Like his actions
Speaker 1: kind of give her what she wants over some hope.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think today it would be called breadcrumbing. Hang,
Speaker 3: oh my god, you are where he gives her these
Speaker 3: little bits. I mean, I think like in today's dating landscape,
Speaker 3: if you look at their relationship in those first couple
Speaker 3: of seasons, you know, I I like, I understand it's
Speaker 3: hard to look at that relationship through today's lens because
Speaker 3: he is so aloof and he is so noncommittal, and
Speaker 3: she is trying to turn herself into whatever she thinks
Speaker 3: the man wants, which is what women did back then.
Speaker 3: Women were told to turn yourself into what the guy wants,
Speaker 3: and that's how you will get him. And you know,
Speaker 3: there are still some women out there on social media
Speaker 3: who are saying just you know, like become what he wants.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's saying that never goes away. I think,
Speaker 1: you know, and I don't even know what's happening with
Speaker 1: this tradwife situation, but like like that, like what is it? Like?
Speaker 1: What on earth? Do you know? What I mean? I mean,
Speaker 1: we've got some women questioning the validity of a heterosexual relationship,
Speaker 1: and then we've got tradwives, yes.
Speaker 3: Cream And the thing that's so interesting to me is
Speaker 3: also there's this huge interest in romance like romance novels,
Speaker 3: and now it's romanticy. It's basically a romance with a
Speaker 3: something out of a fantasy, like a dragon, like a dragon.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, okay, exactly Game of Thrones, thank you very much.
Speaker 3: You know, then at the same time we have there
Speaker 3: is a real movement also of women saying, you know,
Speaker 3: I'm not going to do what society is telling women
Speaker 3: to do. But at the same time, like the romance
Speaker 3: is bigger than ever. So it's falcinating acotomy. It's very
Speaker 3: fascinating and strange. I wonder what's going to happen. We
Speaker 3: never know.
Speaker 2: Don't ask me, I know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: No, don't don't und don't no, no, don't gloom and
Speaker 1: do I mean, it might be coming, but let's not
Speaker 1: think about it if it is exactly so, Candace, thank
Speaker 1: you for being with us this whole week. Two episodes
Speaker 1: of Candace Bush Now, yay, that's fantastic. Candace has been
Speaker 1: so great to take us back to the beginning of
Speaker 1: the show and also to remind us that she has
Speaker 1: written and is performing a one woman show, also about
Speaker 1: writing the column and the book that became Sex in
Speaker 1: the City and it is called True Tales of Sex,
Speaker 1: Success and Sex and the City the tour and she's
Speaker 1: been all around the world with this tour. Congratulations, thank you.
Speaker 3: It's amazing and it's coming to New York and this
Speaker 3: will be at Sony Hall on May sixteenth.
Speaker 1: Awesome, that's amazing. And congratulations on all of your so
Speaker 1: many New York Times sellers and everything that you do. Oh,
Speaker 1: thank you. You're welcome.
Speaker 3: M