WEBVTT - Bubbles with Isaac Adamson | Development Hell 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:25.276 Pushkin before we do any talking. I just want you. 0:00:25.316 --> 0:00:27.916 Can you just read the opening. 0:00:27.556 --> 0:00:35.156 Scene exterior Ape Sanctuary Day. Bubbles, a grizzled, muscular thirty 0:00:35.156 --> 0:00:38.716 three year old chimpanzee, lazily knuckle wocks across the floor 0:00:38.796 --> 0:00:42.436 of a large domed enclosure nestled in a verdant, Florida 0:00:42.476 --> 0:00:51.836 woodland Superimposition Center for Great Apes Watchuola, Florida present day. 0:00:52.836 --> 0:00:56.356 There are many kinds of kingdoms in this world, and 0:00:56.476 --> 0:00:57.636 many kinds of kings. 0:00:58.476 --> 0:01:01.476 Bubble scoops up a hunk of sweet potato from the ground. 0:01:02.476 --> 0:01:05.836 I have known more than most, though all here have 0:01:06.036 --> 0:01:09.276 served outside these castle walls in some capacity. 0:01:10.156 --> 0:01:13.276 It comes upon a cluster of three chips and acknowledges them. 0:01:13.676 --> 0:01:16.956 Butchered chippers served the Ringling Brothers, as did Petunia. 0:01:18.676 --> 0:01:21.356 Moving along, he passes two other chips. 0:01:21.756 --> 0:01:24.116 Ellie and her friend Kodua were both in a Super 0:01:24.156 --> 0:01:24.916 Bowl commercial. 0:01:25.676 --> 0:01:28.316 A third chip runs over, waxed Ellie on the head 0:01:28.356 --> 0:01:29.276 and then runs off. 0:01:29.956 --> 0:01:33.996 That's Jonah. He starred in a Planet of the Apes film. 0:01:34.236 --> 0:01:36.676 Unfortunately it was the one people didn't enjoy. 0:01:37.516 --> 0:01:40.716 Bubble's effortlessly as sens a wooden jungle gym and then 0:01:40.796 --> 0:01:43.916 sits perched on top of it, overlooking his domain, munching 0:01:43.916 --> 0:01:44.756 his sweet potato. 0:01:46.916 --> 0:01:50.876 Now this is their kingdom, and I am their king. 0:01:52.316 --> 0:01:57.036 But it was not always so. I was once heir 0:01:57.236 --> 0:02:02.036 to the greatest kingdom on earth, one ruled by a 0:02:02.156 --> 0:02:07.716 king like none before him. But every kingdom, great or small, 0:02:07.836 --> 0:02:12.596 has its boundaries, it's walls. Every kingdom is itself a 0:02:12.676 --> 0:02:18.796 kind of cage. I have in my life. Become a 0:02:18.836 --> 0:02:19.916 student of cages. 0:02:27.476 --> 0:02:31.556 Welcome to episode three of Development Hell, our series about 0:02:31.596 --> 0:02:35.636 the Hollywood that Never was. I heard about this script 0:02:35.756 --> 0:02:39.196 from Franklin Leonard, who runs something called the Blacklist. It's 0:02:39.196 --> 0:02:43.396 a Hollywood institution that polls movie executives every year, asking 0:02:43.436 --> 0:02:48.236 them to name their most liked unproduced screenplays. The project 0:02:48.396 --> 0:02:51.036 we're going to talk about today hit number one on 0:02:51.076 --> 0:02:55.796 the Blacklist. It was called simply Bubbles, A story told 0:02:55.836 --> 0:03:00.076 through the eyes of the most unreliable of all unreliable narrators, 0:03:00.796 --> 0:03:03.956 a chimpanzee who rose as high as a chimp can 0:03:04.076 --> 0:03:08.676 rise and then fell, and the entire town, the entire 0:03:08.716 --> 0:03:13.756 community of Development executive Studio Hancho's producers, everyone in Hollywood 0:03:13.916 --> 0:03:16.236 agreed that this was the best thing they had read. 0:03:17.196 --> 0:03:19.196 But do you know when Bubbles hit number one on 0:03:19.236 --> 0:03:26.356 the Blacklist twenty fifteen, nine years ago, Hollywood decided as 0:03:26.396 --> 0:03:28.796 a group that a story about a chimp called Bubbles 0:03:29.316 --> 0:03:32.356 was the absolute best script of twenty fifteen. And yet 0:03:32.436 --> 0:03:35.756 in the decades since, Hollywood has decided that they did 0:03:35.836 --> 0:03:38.076 not want to make a movie told through the eyes 0:03:38.076 --> 0:03:42.676 of a chimp called Bubbles. Why this is why all 0:03:42.716 --> 0:03:46.636 of us revision is history, decided the world needed development hell, 0:03:47.396 --> 0:03:50.756 a series devoted entirely to the stories that Hollywood loves 0:03:51.236 --> 0:03:55.276 but will not share with the rest of us. So 0:03:55.356 --> 0:04:00.796 I called up the creator of Bubbles, Isaac Adamson, screenwriter, novelist, 0:04:01.516 --> 0:04:06.796 thwarted chronicler of the inner lives of large primates. You 0:04:06.836 --> 0:04:10.276 may hear in Isaac's voice a certain resis ignation about 0:04:10.316 --> 0:04:13.396 the fate of his screenplay, but that's not how I feel. 0:04:13.996 --> 0:04:19.476 I read Bubbles, and I thought I have to do something. First, 0:04:19.516 --> 0:04:22.716 they came for the chimpanzees, and I did not speak 0:04:22.756 --> 0:04:26.036 out because I was not a chimpanzee. 0:04:26.276 --> 0:04:27.956 You know that ends. 0:04:29.116 --> 0:04:36.196 So here we have a middle aged chimp who is 0:04:36.876 --> 0:04:41.516 clearly in some kind of retirement, has been pastured out 0:04:41.636 --> 0:04:47.876 to this sanctuary in Orlando. But he speaks in this grandiose, 0:04:48.236 --> 0:04:52.396 formal manner about this life. Tell me, give me a 0:04:52.436 --> 0:04:55.676 little more in your own words, about the character of 0:04:55.716 --> 0:05:02.196 this of Bubbles, this majestic aging chimp. 0:05:02.676 --> 0:05:05.196 Yeah. Well, I think of Bubbles kind of as a 0:05:05.876 --> 0:05:09.716 would be king in exile. You know, he's had this amazing, 0:05:09.796 --> 0:05:12.556 adventurous life and now it's kind of been he's been 0:05:12.596 --> 0:05:18.196 removed from and he's sort of biding his time away 0:05:18.276 --> 0:05:21.036 from the life that he thought he was going to 0:05:21.116 --> 0:05:22.956 have and from the kingdom that he felt that he 0:05:22.996 --> 0:05:23.836 was going to inherit. 0:05:24.116 --> 0:05:28.836 He's a tragic figure, yeah, definitely, Yeah, but he has 0:05:29.196 --> 0:05:31.556 And what's hilarious. This is a comedy. 0:05:33.236 --> 0:05:34.876 Yeah, that's core. 0:05:34.956 --> 0:05:37.476 Yes, that's core. It's many other things as well, but 0:05:37.516 --> 0:05:40.716 it's fundamentally a comedy. I must say parenthetically, Isaac that 0:05:40.876 --> 0:05:43.236 I love this script so much. You know how in 0:05:43.276 --> 0:05:46.796 your world in Hollywood it's always X meets Y. A 0:05:46.796 --> 0:05:48.556 movie is always described as ex meets Why. You know 0:05:48.556 --> 0:05:51.996 what this is? You probably, I'm sure you've thought this 0:05:52.156 --> 0:05:57.516 is this script is uh uh Remains of the Day 0:05:58.076 --> 0:05:59.476 meets Puff the Magic Dragon. 0:06:01.076 --> 0:06:03.196 I actually has never thought of it that way. That's 0:06:03.196 --> 0:06:04.196 what I hadn't heard before. 0:06:04.756 --> 0:06:06.116 But do you see what do you do? You you 0:06:06.476 --> 0:06:07.956 know what I'm you know what I'm getting at. 0:06:08.396 --> 0:06:10.516 Yeah, I definitely that makes sense. 0:06:10.636 --> 0:06:13.636 So let's explain Bubbles is a real was a real chimp. 0:06:13.756 --> 0:06:16.436 Yeah, correct, he was. He is a real chimp. He's 0:06:16.476 --> 0:06:20.036 still alive and living at this Ape Sanctuary in Florida, and. 0:06:19.916 --> 0:06:23.516 He he is famous, and he's probably one of the 0:06:23.596 --> 0:06:27.036 most famous chimps of our generation. 0:06:28.196 --> 0:06:30.356 Yeah, I would, I would think so for sure. I 0:06:30.356 --> 0:06:34.556 mean he's up there with like Cheetah from previous generations. 0:06:34.596 --> 0:06:38.316 I suppose, oh Cheetah, you mean like Tarzan ssidekick in 0:06:38.356 --> 0:06:42.276 those tarz En movies and TV shows. So Bubbles is 0:06:42.316 --> 0:06:45.156 on Cheetah's level. He's famous. 0:06:45.796 --> 0:06:49.396 Uh, he is famous because he was Michael Jackson's Chimpionzee 0:06:49.476 --> 0:06:51.716 during the height of Jackson's fame. 0:06:52.196 --> 0:06:55.516 Yeah, and he was more than a kind of pet. 0:06:55.636 --> 0:06:57.876 He was. He was like a he was like Michael 0:06:57.916 --> 0:06:58.916 Jackson's companion. 0:06:59.116 --> 0:07:01.796 He was when Michael Jackson went on tour. He took 0:07:01.876 --> 0:07:03.756 him all over the world. You know, he tried to 0:07:03.756 --> 0:07:06.876 take him to Europe. He had some trouble getting him 0:07:06.876 --> 0:07:11.596 into the country because of the animal quarantine laws, but 0:07:11.716 --> 0:07:14.356 he did. He took him to Japan, he took him. 0:07:14.716 --> 0:07:17.476 He took him famously to a meeting with the mayor 0:07:17.516 --> 0:07:18.476 of Osaka. 0:07:18.636 --> 0:07:22.356 So you had this idea of doing a movie about 0:07:22.596 --> 0:07:26.876 Michael Jackson seeing through the eyes of his chimp Bubbles. 0:07:28.436 --> 0:07:31.236 Yeah, I guess the genesis of it happened a long 0:07:31.276 --> 0:07:33.996 time before I actually sat down to write the script. 0:07:33.996 --> 0:07:36.756 You know, it was right around the time Michael Jackson died, 0:07:37.396 --> 0:07:40.836 and there were all sorts of articles about every aspect 0:07:40.916 --> 0:07:45.636 of his life. And I happened across something in like 0:07:45.916 --> 0:07:48.156 People or you know, one of those magazines that you 0:07:48.276 --> 0:07:51.396 kind of flipped through at the DAAs office, and it 0:07:51.476 --> 0:07:54.036 was just a little blurb about, well, whatever happened to Bubbles, 0:07:54.076 --> 0:07:57.556 you know, remember Michael Jackson's chimpanzee. And I thought out, 0:07:57.596 --> 0:07:59.836 that's kind of interesting because I sort of remembered Bubbles 0:07:59.836 --> 0:08:03.156 being around and everything. And then a couple of years later, 0:08:03.236 --> 0:08:06.516 there was a there was a book that was shortlisted 0:08:07.116 --> 0:08:10.716 for the Man Booker Prize in the UK, me Cheetah, 0:08:10.756 --> 0:08:13.956 and I thought it was like the Tarzan story told 0:08:13.956 --> 0:08:16.876 from Cheetah's perspective, that. It turns out I was totally wrong. 0:08:16.916 --> 0:08:18.916 I didn't actually read the book. I just read about it. 0:08:18.916 --> 0:08:22.156 I'm like, oh, that's an interesting idea. Yeah, so a 0:08:22.196 --> 0:08:24.796 certain point, I just decided to try to write a 0:08:24.836 --> 0:08:28.236 Michael Jackson story told from the perspective of this, you know, 0:08:28.356 --> 0:08:31.116 of this chimpanzee. But it was really important to me 0:08:31.276 --> 0:08:36.636 to make the chimpanzee the lead character, the real protagonist, 0:08:37.156 --> 0:08:39.276 not just how it be. He's kind of a fly 0:08:39.396 --> 0:08:41.916 on the wall witnessing all this crazy stuff going on. 0:08:42.436 --> 0:08:45.956 And how did you come to give the give bubbles 0:08:45.996 --> 0:08:48.396 the persona that he has. I mean, there's a million 0:08:48.396 --> 0:08:51.436 directions you could go with a chimp. If we're going 0:08:51.476 --> 0:08:53.876 to live inside the mind of a chimp, the chimp 0:08:53.916 --> 0:08:57.956 could be a rascal, he could be a partier, he 0:08:57.996 --> 0:09:00.436 could be a you know, I mean, he could be 0:09:00.436 --> 0:09:02.396 the imagure, he could be an immature adolescent. I mean, 0:09:02.476 --> 0:09:07.996 there's a million chimps, and you chose this kind of formal, 0:09:08.716 --> 0:09:15.196 self serious, grandiose kind of character to be. How where 0:09:15.196 --> 0:09:17.036 did that I where did that notion come from? 0:09:17.996 --> 0:09:20.596 Well there was a couple of things, really, because yeah, 0:09:20.636 --> 0:09:23.556 although this is a comedy, I did see it. You know, 0:09:23.676 --> 0:09:27.076 as a tragedy. From Bubble's perspective, he sort of has 0:09:27.116 --> 0:09:30.396 this notion that Michael Jackson is a real king, you know, 0:09:30.516 --> 0:09:34.716 like a monarch, and chimpanzees are very hierarchical animals. There's 0:09:34.716 --> 0:09:37.356 definitely a pecking order there. Once I sort of had 0:09:37.356 --> 0:09:39.956 this idea of it's almost a Shakespearean tragedy about a 0:09:40.036 --> 0:09:42.716 king and his son that would be king. Then I 0:09:42.756 --> 0:09:45.676 started thinking, we'll be really funny if if Bubbles spoke 0:09:45.716 --> 0:09:49.516 in this kind of pseudo Shakespearean language, just to elevate 0:09:49.556 --> 0:09:52.676 it a little bit. Yeah, so that's kind of where 0:09:52.676 --> 0:09:54.396 a lot of that came from. Yeah. 0:09:54.476 --> 0:09:58.396 Yeah, but it gives him an enormous amount of dignity 0:09:59.636 --> 0:10:01.676 if he was. If he was, this is one of 0:10:01.716 --> 0:10:03.476 the first things that's struggling about this. I was like, 0:10:03.556 --> 0:10:07.636 why am I Why do I feel Bubbles is pain? 0:10:07.796 --> 0:10:10.476 Because he eventually will go through a great deal of pain. 0:10:10.596 --> 0:10:13.836 I was asking, so why do I feel it so keenly? 0:10:14.596 --> 0:10:19.156 And I realize it's because he has this very precious 0:10:19.196 --> 0:10:23.116 dignity which he's going to enormous lengths to preserve. And 0:10:23.276 --> 0:10:27.036 if he was just the stereotypical chimp who's just had 0:10:27.076 --> 0:10:31.836 to eat bananas and jump around. Then there's no steakes 0:10:31.916 --> 0:10:35.436 if he's right humiliated. But in this case, it was enormous. 0:10:35.476 --> 0:10:40.636 I mean his pride, Bubbles. Bubbles just has this enormous 0:10:40.716 --> 0:10:45.516 amount of pride in his position and his status and 0:10:45.556 --> 0:10:50.076 his accomplishments and which is it's just deeply hilarious. 0:10:50.316 --> 0:10:51.956 Yeah, I know, I think, you know, it would have 0:10:51.956 --> 0:10:55.996 been a fun to just the visual juxtaposition of this chimpanzee, 0:10:55.996 --> 0:10:58.076 which I think we all associate with that kind of 0:10:58.396 --> 0:11:02.396 you know, wacky hygienks and slapstick and wrapping its head 0:11:02.436 --> 0:11:05.436 and you know, blowing raspberries and all those things we've 0:11:05.476 --> 0:11:08.836 seen in all kinds of movies and TV shows and 0:11:09.156 --> 0:11:12.916 commercials and even nature documentaries. But then you know, having 0:11:12.916 --> 0:11:16.276 that sort of goofy, funny exterior aspect to it, but 0:11:16.316 --> 0:11:20.156 there's really sort of deep, kind of sad interior thing 0:11:20.196 --> 0:11:21.796 going on at the same time. I thought that was 0:11:21.836 --> 0:11:23.396 an interesting juxtaposition. 0:11:23.596 --> 0:11:27.476 Yeah, and he's an he not only does he he 0:11:27.876 --> 0:11:32.556 he misunderstands who Michael Jackson is. So when he when 0:11:32.756 --> 0:11:34.756 Michael Jackson is referred to as the King of Pop, 0:11:35.396 --> 0:11:38.796 Bubbles thinks that means he is the king actually the 0:11:38.916 --> 0:11:43.756 king of pop And not only that, he consistently misunderstands 0:11:44.116 --> 0:11:46.436 all these things that we understand about Michael Jackson. I'm 0:11:46.436 --> 0:11:49.236 wondering if you could read there's that incredibly lovely scene 0:11:49.236 --> 0:11:53.356 where he's talking about the first time he discusses Michael 0:11:53.476 --> 0:11:58.476 Jackson's cosmetic surgery. Could you can you There's a number 0:11:58.516 --> 0:12:00.236 of times where he does. But I'm wondering whether you 0:12:00.236 --> 0:12:03.756 can find that section forgot with pagees on. Oh here 0:12:03.756 --> 0:12:05.796 we are thirteen. 0:12:11.796 --> 0:12:17.396 Interior, Havenhurst Mansion, Michael's bathroom night. Michael looks at the 0:12:17.396 --> 0:12:20.076 man in the mirror, unhappily, inspecting his face for a 0:12:20.076 --> 0:12:23.636 moment before picking up a bottle of Porcelina skin bleaching cream. 0:12:24.196 --> 0:12:26.596 Bubbo sits on the stool next to him, watching as 0:12:26.636 --> 0:12:28.476 Michael rubs the cream into his face. 0:12:29.996 --> 0:12:33.836 Before venturing forth to the battlefield, he would don warpaint 0:12:33.916 --> 0:12:38.196 that turned his face a spectral, phantasmic shade, meant to 0:12:38.276 --> 0:12:42.116 strike fear into the heart of his enemies. 0:12:43.476 --> 0:12:47.156 Later, Michael faces the mirror again, a bandage covers his nose. 0:12:47.596 --> 0:12:51.276 Often he would return from these battles with bandages covering 0:12:51.356 --> 0:12:53.156 wounds received in combat. 0:12:53.516 --> 0:12:57.396 Michael peels the bandage away to reveal a noticeably narrowed nose. 0:12:58.556 --> 0:13:02.716 But he had remarkable powers of self healing, each time, 0:13:02.836 --> 0:13:10.076 recovering from such injuries without so much as a scarm. 0:13:10.116 --> 0:13:15.676 He's such a hilariously unreliable narrator about his king. That's 0:13:15.676 --> 0:13:17.996 like half the fun of this. That's why, you know 0:13:18.036 --> 0:13:21.156 what I said, it's half Remains of the Day. Remains 0:13:21.196 --> 0:13:23.476 of the Day as a novel about a butler to 0:13:23.596 --> 0:13:27.316 an English lord who's sympathetic to the Nazis in the 0:13:27.356 --> 0:13:29.996 years before the Second World War, and the butler thinks 0:13:29.996 --> 0:13:33.836 that his master is one of the great statesmen of 0:13:33.876 --> 0:13:38.396 his day instead of just being a groveling neo Nazi, 0:13:38.996 --> 0:13:43.796 you know, and the whole that's a tragic novel. But 0:13:43.836 --> 0:13:47.756 the whole thing is that butler never understands who his 0:13:48.196 --> 0:13:51.996 master is. Yeah, but this is the same thing. Bubbles 0:13:52.076 --> 0:13:53.796 is like the butler and remains the day. He just 0:13:53.836 --> 0:13:56.916 doesn't he never ever cottons on to the kind of 0:13:58.716 --> 0:14:01.236 holeomnists in Michael Jackson. 0:14:01.276 --> 0:14:04.156 I guess yeah, I think you know, because he is 0:14:04.196 --> 0:14:06.476 a chimpanzee, and he does he misinterprets a lot of 0:14:06.476 --> 0:14:08.716 what he sees. I think it sort of allows him 0:14:08.756 --> 0:14:12.356 to return innocence too that you know, Yeah, a quote 0:14:12.396 --> 0:14:14.636 unquote normal person that was seeing some of the things 0:14:14.636 --> 0:14:18.916 that Bubbles was exposed to. You know, we're coming to 0:14:18.956 --> 0:14:21.236 say conclusions. The Bubbles does, for sure. 0:14:22.076 --> 0:14:25.716 But Bubbles does there are certain things he used a 0:14:25.756 --> 0:14:33.076 lot in this in this screenplay about Joe Michael Jackson's 0:14:33.116 --> 0:14:39.116 tyrannical father, and Bubbles does understand that there is something 0:14:39.476 --> 0:14:42.956 deeply kind of corrosive and tragic about that relationship. 0:14:43.036 --> 0:14:45.956 Yeah, it's true. I mean he does. I think one 0:14:45.996 --> 0:14:49.916 thing that he's geared at sensing is sort of power dynamics, 0:14:50.316 --> 0:14:53.316 and he can kind of understand that. Ye had Michael's 0:14:53.356 --> 0:14:56.876 maybe the king, but here's this other figure who is 0:14:56.956 --> 0:14:59.716 unkind to him but clearly has power over him. You know, 0:14:59.876 --> 0:15:00.916 in some sense. 0:15:02.236 --> 0:15:04.196 You have an enormous amount of fun in the script 0:15:04.276 --> 0:15:10.396 with populating it with every single pop culture person of 0:15:10.436 --> 0:15:14.276 them of the moment, I lost track, I was keeping 0:15:14.276 --> 0:15:17.916 track of all of the cameos. We get Elizabeth Taylor, 0:15:18.436 --> 0:15:21.636 we get lots of Quincy Jones, we get bon Jovi 0:15:21.836 --> 0:15:25.516 in a hilarious scene when bon Jovi basically co opt 0:15:25.556 --> 0:15:30.516 Bubbles for a crazy night on the town LaToya obviously, 0:15:32.356 --> 0:15:38.036 Corey Feldman, Prince, Yeah, Prince. In a memorable scene when 0:15:38.076 --> 0:15:42.796 we see Prince encounter Michael Jackson, threw bubbles his eyes, bubbles, 0:15:42.836 --> 0:15:43.756 tries to make sense of. 0:15:45.796 --> 0:15:46.276 The uh. 0:15:47.716 --> 0:15:50.876 This, I mean, this part of the scripture sounds like 0:15:51.116 --> 0:15:54.996 you must. I pictured you laughing out loud as you 0:15:54.996 --> 0:15:55.996 were writing these scenes. 0:15:56.556 --> 0:16:00.596 Oh yeah, definitely, every pretty much every scene there was 0:16:00.716 --> 0:16:02.676 there is something that just made me giggle, And even 0:16:02.716 --> 0:16:04.876 before I was writing it, when I was just researching 0:16:04.916 --> 0:16:07.676 it and coming upon all these stories. I mean, bon 0:16:07.756 --> 0:16:10.596 Jovi tells that story clip and I think it's on 0:16:10.676 --> 0:16:13.556 YouTube about how when he was in Osaka. Yeah, he 0:16:14.196 --> 0:16:17.316 basically they gave him bubbles for the night and they 0:16:17.316 --> 0:16:20.036 just had a big hotel party. And the Prince story, 0:16:20.196 --> 0:16:22.156 that's another one that was based on, you know, a 0:16:22.196 --> 0:16:24.876 true thing that happened. I mean, Michael Jackson being the 0:16:24.996 --> 0:16:27.836 massive figure he was at that time, he did interact 0:16:27.876 --> 0:16:30.676 with pretty much everybody who was everybody you know in 0:16:30.836 --> 0:16:33.116 pop culture during that period. 0:16:33.196 --> 0:16:36.796 What's also interesting is that there's things happening inside bubbles 0:16:36.796 --> 0:16:39.556 which you made up yourself. Everything that happens outside it 0:16:39.596 --> 0:16:43.516 seems like so basically recovering Michael Jackson's life when he's 0:16:43.756 --> 0:16:48.116 writing and touring for The Bad for Bad? Is it bad? 0:16:48.236 --> 0:16:48.956 Was the appen called bad? 0:16:49.036 --> 0:16:50.076 Yeah? It was bad? Yeah. 0:16:50.276 --> 0:16:54.556 Yeah, you're just fishing through all of the true accounts 0:16:54.556 --> 0:16:58.076 of that era and taking out stories basically. 0:16:58.156 --> 0:17:00.516 Yeah. And there's other stories that I've heard, you know, 0:17:00.636 --> 0:17:03.796 since since the script got out and I talked to 0:17:03.836 --> 0:17:06.556 so many people about it and everybody was sharing their 0:17:06.556 --> 0:17:09.796 Michael Jackson stories and rumors and all kinds. I've heard 0:17:09.796 --> 0:17:12.516 a lot of others, just kind of wild stories since then, 0:17:12.636 --> 0:17:15.556 you know, involving mcdonna and Michael Jackson, and some involving 0:17:15.596 --> 0:17:18.516 Bubbles and people that that saw him when he was 0:17:18.516 --> 0:17:22.676 at Neverland, And yeah, I've heard I've heard a couple 0:17:22.876 --> 0:17:25.156 where Bubbles was probably not as well behaved as he 0:17:25.276 --> 0:17:28.436 generally is in the script. Yeah. Yeah, well that's good. 0:17:28.476 --> 0:17:30.596 That goes I'm saying, we have to give him, if 0:17:30.596 --> 0:17:32.356 we're going to give him some dignity, he can't be 0:17:32.436 --> 0:17:37.596 throwing his faces at the wall every every five minutes, right. Yeah, 0:17:39.676 --> 0:17:41.956 of course, there are all kinds of things about Michael 0:17:42.036 --> 0:17:45.356 Jackson's story that are not funny. When we come back 0:17:45.796 --> 0:17:48.476 Isaac hits a roadblock as he tries to get the 0:17:48.476 --> 0:18:10.316 Bubbles movie made. We're back Mychael Jackson dies in two 0:18:10.316 --> 0:18:14.836 thousand and nine, but Bubbles is still alive, and nearly 0:18:14.876 --> 0:18:18.596 six years later, Isaac Adamson writes the biopic We're talking 0:18:18.596 --> 0:18:20.996 about the story of the King of Pop from the 0:18:20.996 --> 0:18:24.556 point of view of his pet chimpanzee. He's thinking of 0:18:24.636 --> 0:18:27.996 using stop motion animation to tell the story for obvious reasons. 0:18:28.476 --> 0:18:30.996 Hollywood is used to dealing with Prima Donna's but a 0:18:31.116 --> 0:18:32.996 chimp as the star of a movie would be on 0:18:33.036 --> 0:18:36.956 a whole other level. And Isaac isn't ignoring the pedophilia 0:18:37.036 --> 0:18:42.156 allegations against Michael Jackson. The Leaving Neverland documentary that exposed 0:18:42.276 --> 0:18:45.836 Jackson's behavior isn't out yet, but there's been investigations in 0:18:45.876 --> 0:18:49.516 the nineteen nineties that have become headline news. So around 0:18:49.556 --> 0:18:54.596 twenty fifteen, Isaac takes his admittedly unusual project and starts 0:18:54.596 --> 0:18:59.716 shopping it and studios like it. In twenty seventeen, Netflix 0:18:59.876 --> 0:19:04.356 bought the project and Isaac entered development. 0:19:04.436 --> 0:19:13.036 Hell, you know, when Netflix bought the project, I had 0:19:13.036 --> 0:19:17.036 to do a pretty lengthy annotation for them, citing anything 0:19:17.076 --> 0:19:18.956 in the script. I had to basically cite a source 0:19:19.036 --> 0:19:22.836 for yeah, just to get clearance from their legal department, 0:19:22.876 --> 0:19:25.356 and we ended up, you know, in the latest versions 0:19:25.396 --> 0:19:29.716 of the script, some of the names changed in certain cases, 0:19:30.036 --> 0:19:33.356 or a few characters kind of got squashed down into 0:19:33.396 --> 0:19:33.996 one character. 0:19:34.836 --> 0:19:37.636 Who did you lose in the in the legal review. 0:19:38.356 --> 0:19:42.396 Well, the biggest change had to do with a lot 0:19:42.396 --> 0:19:45.356 of this stuff related to legal charges that Michael Jackson faced, 0:19:45.516 --> 0:19:48.316 and we just changed some of the names there because 0:19:48.316 --> 0:19:50.516 there were a few things that were included in the 0:19:50.556 --> 0:19:53.356 script that were a little bit there was a whole 0:19:53.356 --> 0:19:55.396 lot of proof for the only stories about our like 0:19:55.756 --> 0:19:58.516 disreputable British tabloids and stuff like that. 0:19:58.836 --> 0:20:01.436 Yeah, So this brings up this crucial thing, which is 0:20:02.476 --> 0:20:09.356 what begins as this kind of strange, kind of light 0:20:09.396 --> 0:20:15.196 hearted romp takes a dark turn in the second act 0:20:15.436 --> 0:20:19.756 and we actually get into my you know, Michael's well 0:20:19.796 --> 0:20:25.316 known the well known allegations around Michael Jackson's pedophilia, only 0:20:25.956 --> 0:20:28.476 this time we're seeing it through the eyes of a 0:20:28.636 --> 0:20:33.676 kind of jilted of our jilted chimp. Who's Who's Who's 0:20:33.956 --> 0:20:39.276 place of prominence next to Michael has been uh, he's 0:20:39.276 --> 0:20:48.316 been supplanted by by by a young boy. Yeah, and Isaac, 0:20:48.396 --> 0:20:49.916 this is like it gets heavy. 0:20:50.956 --> 0:20:54.196 It does, Yeah, it does. I mean it's a heavy 0:20:54.236 --> 0:20:56.356 it's a heavy kind of story. I feel like the 0:20:56.396 --> 0:20:58.956 Michael Jackson story is a heavy story, and Bubble's story 0:20:58.996 --> 0:21:02.156 within that story, it is kind of a heavy story. 0:21:02.156 --> 0:21:04.996 But yeah, I think you've used these kids at first 0:21:05.036 --> 0:21:08.236 as just sort of these annoying sort of interlopers that 0:21:08.316 --> 0:21:12.276 are that are taking Michael's attention away from him, and 0:21:12.316 --> 0:21:14.636 then he sees them kind of, you know, as rivals 0:21:15.236 --> 0:21:17.996 and even comes to fear like maybe they're actually part 0:21:17.996 --> 0:21:19.396 of the succession now and not me. 0:21:20.516 --> 0:21:24.196 Once again, the one way in which Bubbles is h 0:21:24.316 --> 0:21:29.996 sees the world clearly is to the the prism of hierarchy, right, 0:21:30.116 --> 0:21:34.836 and so he understands accurately that in the in Michael 0:21:34.916 --> 0:21:40.396 Jackson's hierarchy, these boys are now higher up than he is. Correct, 0:21:40.516 --> 0:21:43.676 they can they occupy a place in Michael's heart that 0:21:43.716 --> 0:21:46.716 he does not. And this is, like I said, this 0:21:46.796 --> 0:21:49.956 is why I said, this is remains the day meets Puff, 0:21:49.996 --> 0:21:52.076 the Magic Dragon. It's the Puff story. Then when day 0:21:52.116 --> 0:21:56.836 it happened, Jackie Paper came no more. It's that's that's 0:21:56.836 --> 0:22:01.476 what happens to him. He gets pushed aside, and it's like, 0:22:02.396 --> 0:22:06.476 it broke my heart when that happened. 0:22:08.276 --> 0:22:11.196 Yeah, it's it's a tough Uh, it's a tough moment. 0:22:11.196 --> 0:22:13.436 It's tough thing for bubbles. And I think you know, 0:22:13.516 --> 0:22:16.356 if you if you talk to the kids who were 0:22:16.436 --> 0:22:19.396 around Michael Jackson a lot at that time, I think 0:22:19.436 --> 0:22:22.676 a lot of them went through similar experiences with him 0:22:22.796 --> 0:22:27.556 when where you know, he they were his favorite, and 0:22:27.596 --> 0:22:30.076 then some and then someone else came along, you know, 0:22:30.276 --> 0:22:32.156 and they were just sort of jilted out of out 0:22:32.196 --> 0:22:35.716 of neverland. And I think, you know, and in certain 0:22:35.756 --> 0:22:38.476 cases that that hurt these kids a lot, even some 0:22:38.516 --> 0:22:40.756 of the ones that like Corey Fellman, you know, who 0:22:40.836 --> 0:22:43.316 says that Michael Jackson never touched him or you know, 0:22:43.396 --> 0:22:46.636 did anything sexually untoward, but he was just hurt by 0:22:46.636 --> 0:22:49.196 that whole experience of feeling like they were buddies and 0:22:49.236 --> 0:22:50.996 he was the favorite, and then one day he's just 0:22:51.036 --> 0:22:52.796 out mm hmmm hmm. 0:22:53.676 --> 0:22:58.356 What does it do to our understanding of that part 0:22:58.396 --> 0:23:02.876 of Michael Jackson's life that we're viewing it to the 0:23:02.876 --> 0:23:04.156 eyes of a chimp. 0:23:07.236 --> 0:23:12.996 Yeah, that's a good question. I feel like, you know, 0:23:13.036 --> 0:23:16.556 in a certain sense, it gives us bubbles interpretation and 0:23:16.636 --> 0:23:21.316 often misinterpretation of these things that he sees. It works 0:23:21.316 --> 0:23:24.796 almost as a distant distcencing device that allows us to 0:23:25.076 --> 0:23:29.356 sort of see things through a different viewpoint that wasn't 0:23:29.396 --> 0:23:32.516 necessarily our own, you know, or the way I experienced 0:23:32.596 --> 0:23:34.556 Michael Jackson when I was a kid growing up in 0:23:34.596 --> 0:23:38.836 the eighties. I mean, when I was growing up and 0:23:38.916 --> 0:23:41.956 where I was, it didn't really matter what kind of 0:23:41.996 --> 0:23:44.836 music you listened to, you liked Michael Jackson. Like, if 0:23:44.876 --> 0:23:48.316 you were into you know, Iron Maiden and heavy metal 0:23:48.356 --> 0:23:50.516 and all that stuff, you still like Michael Jackson. If 0:23:50.556 --> 0:23:53.076 you were listening to Duran, Duran and a bunch of 0:23:53.116 --> 0:23:56.236 new Waves, you still like Michael Jackson. Everybody liked Michael Jackson, 0:23:57.076 --> 0:23:59.756 you know. I remember seeing the Thriller video a thousand 0:23:59.876 --> 0:24:01.796 times on MTV when I was when I was a 0:24:01.796 --> 0:24:04.876 little kid, So yeah, I was definitely a fan. Yeah. 0:24:05.516 --> 0:24:08.516 Yeah, I'm trying to kind of figure out why years later, 0:24:09.156 --> 0:24:11.876 the kind of psychological dimensions of this story would have 0:24:13.036 --> 0:24:16.276 would have been so kind of clear to you, right, 0:24:16.356 --> 0:24:19.556 the sort of weird like you know, an entire generation 0:24:19.596 --> 0:24:22.676 of seventh grader is kind of encounter Michael Jackson. 0:24:22.796 --> 0:24:25.876 Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm sure a lot of 0:24:25.876 --> 0:24:28.876 people were jealous of those real life kids at the 0:24:28.876 --> 0:24:31.756 time that you know, oh my god, you know, Jimmy's 0:24:31.836 --> 0:24:34.156 getting to go to Neverland, getting to go on vacation 0:24:34.276 --> 0:24:36.876 with Michael, and it looked like the greatest life ever. 0:24:36.916 --> 0:24:39.916 You're just eating ice cream and watching movies and you know, 0:24:40.676 --> 0:24:42.916