1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:25,276 Speaker 1: Pushkin before we do any talking. I just want you. 2 00:00:25,316 --> 00:00:27,916 Speaker 1: Can you just read the opening. 3 00:00:27,556 --> 00:00:35,156 Speaker 2: Scene exterior Ape Sanctuary Day. Bubbles, a grizzled, muscular thirty 4 00:00:35,156 --> 00:00:38,716 Speaker 2: three year old chimpanzee, lazily knuckle wocks across the floor 5 00:00:38,796 --> 00:00:42,436 Speaker 2: of a large domed enclosure nestled in a verdant, Florida 6 00:00:42,476 --> 00:00:51,836 Speaker 2: woodland Superimposition Center for Great Apes Watchuola, Florida present day. 7 00:00:52,836 --> 00:00:56,356 Speaker 3: There are many kinds of kingdoms in this world, and 8 00:00:56,476 --> 00:00:57,636 Speaker 3: many kinds of kings. 9 00:00:58,476 --> 00:01:01,476 Speaker 2: Bubble scoops up a hunk of sweet potato from the ground. 10 00:01:02,476 --> 00:01:05,836 Speaker 3: I have known more than most, though all here have 11 00:01:06,036 --> 00:01:09,276 Speaker 3: served outside these castle walls in some capacity. 12 00:01:10,156 --> 00:01:13,276 Speaker 2: It comes upon a cluster of three chips and acknowledges them. 13 00:01:13,676 --> 00:01:16,956 Speaker 3: Butchered chippers served the Ringling Brothers, as did Petunia. 14 00:01:18,676 --> 00:01:21,356 Speaker 2: Moving along, he passes two other chips. 15 00:01:21,756 --> 00:01:24,116 Speaker 3: Ellie and her friend Kodua were both in a Super 16 00:01:24,156 --> 00:01:24,916 Speaker 3: Bowl commercial. 17 00:01:25,676 --> 00:01:28,316 Speaker 2: A third chip runs over, waxed Ellie on the head 18 00:01:28,356 --> 00:01:29,276 Speaker 2: and then runs off. 19 00:01:29,956 --> 00:01:33,996 Speaker 3: That's Jonah. He starred in a Planet of the Apes film. 20 00:01:34,236 --> 00:01:36,676 Speaker 3: Unfortunately it was the one people didn't enjoy. 21 00:01:37,516 --> 00:01:40,716 Speaker 2: Bubble's effortlessly as sens a wooden jungle gym and then 22 00:01:40,796 --> 00:01:43,916 Speaker 2: sits perched on top of it, overlooking his domain, munching 23 00:01:43,916 --> 00:01:44,756 Speaker 2: his sweet potato. 24 00:01:46,916 --> 00:01:50,876 Speaker 3: Now this is their kingdom, and I am their king. 25 00:01:52,316 --> 00:01:57,036 Speaker 3: But it was not always so. I was once heir 26 00:01:57,236 --> 00:02:02,036 Speaker 3: to the greatest kingdom on earth, one ruled by a 27 00:02:02,156 --> 00:02:07,716 Speaker 3: king like none before him. But every kingdom, great or small, 28 00:02:07,836 --> 00:02:12,596 Speaker 3: has its boundaries, it's walls. Every kingdom is itself a 29 00:02:12,676 --> 00:02:18,796 Speaker 3: kind of cage. I have in my life. Become a 30 00:02:18,836 --> 00:02:19,916 Speaker 3: student of cages. 31 00:02:27,476 --> 00:02:31,556 Speaker 1: Welcome to episode three of Development Hell, our series about 32 00:02:31,596 --> 00:02:35,636 Speaker 1: the Hollywood that Never was. I heard about this script 33 00:02:35,756 --> 00:02:39,196 Speaker 1: from Franklin Leonard, who runs something called the Blacklist. It's 34 00:02:39,196 --> 00:02:43,396 Speaker 1: a Hollywood institution that polls movie executives every year, asking 35 00:02:43,436 --> 00:02:48,236 Speaker 1: them to name their most liked unproduced screenplays. The project 36 00:02:48,396 --> 00:02:51,036 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about today hit number one on 37 00:02:51,076 --> 00:02:55,796 Speaker 1: the Blacklist. It was called simply Bubbles, A story told 38 00:02:55,836 --> 00:03:00,076 Speaker 1: through the eyes of the most unreliable of all unreliable narrators, 39 00:03:00,796 --> 00:03:03,956 Speaker 1: a chimpanzee who rose as high as a chimp can 40 00:03:04,076 --> 00:03:08,676 Speaker 1: rise and then fell, and the entire town, the entire 41 00:03:08,716 --> 00:03:13,756 Speaker 1: community of Development executive Studio Hancho's producers, everyone in Hollywood 42 00:03:13,916 --> 00:03:16,236 Speaker 1: agreed that this was the best thing they had read. 43 00:03:17,196 --> 00:03:19,196 Speaker 1: But do you know when Bubbles hit number one on 44 00:03:19,236 --> 00:03:26,356 Speaker 1: the Blacklist twenty fifteen, nine years ago, Hollywood decided as 45 00:03:26,396 --> 00:03:28,796 Speaker 1: a group that a story about a chimp called Bubbles 46 00:03:29,316 --> 00:03:32,356 Speaker 1: was the absolute best script of twenty fifteen. And yet 47 00:03:32,436 --> 00:03:35,756 Speaker 1: in the decades since, Hollywood has decided that they did 48 00:03:35,836 --> 00:03:38,076 Speaker 1: not want to make a movie told through the eyes 49 00:03:38,076 --> 00:03:42,676 Speaker 1: of a chimp called Bubbles. Why this is why all 50 00:03:42,716 --> 00:03:46,636 Speaker 1: of us revision is history, decided the world needed development hell, 51 00:03:47,396 --> 00:03:50,756 Speaker 1: a series devoted entirely to the stories that Hollywood loves 52 00:03:51,236 --> 00:03:55,276 Speaker 1: but will not share with the rest of us. So 53 00:03:55,356 --> 00:04:00,796 Speaker 1: I called up the creator of Bubbles, Isaac Adamson, screenwriter, novelist, 54 00:04:01,516 --> 00:04:06,796 Speaker 1: thwarted chronicler of the inner lives of large primates. You 55 00:04:06,836 --> 00:04:10,276 Speaker 1: may hear in Isaac's voice a certain resis ignation about 56 00:04:10,316 --> 00:04:13,396 Speaker 1: the fate of his screenplay, but that's not how I feel. 57 00:04:13,996 --> 00:04:19,476 Speaker 1: I read Bubbles, and I thought I have to do something. First, 58 00:04:19,516 --> 00:04:22,716 Speaker 1: they came for the chimpanzees, and I did not speak 59 00:04:22,756 --> 00:04:26,036 Speaker 1: out because I was not a chimpanzee. 60 00:04:26,276 --> 00:04:27,956 Speaker 3: You know that ends. 61 00:04:29,116 --> 00:04:36,196 Speaker 1: So here we have a middle aged chimp who is 62 00:04:36,876 --> 00:04:41,516 Speaker 1: clearly in some kind of retirement, has been pastured out 63 00:04:41,636 --> 00:04:47,876 Speaker 1: to this sanctuary in Orlando. But he speaks in this grandiose, 64 00:04:48,236 --> 00:04:52,396 Speaker 1: formal manner about this life. Tell me, give me a 65 00:04:52,436 --> 00:04:55,676 Speaker 1: little more in your own words, about the character of 66 00:04:55,716 --> 00:05:02,196 Speaker 1: this of Bubbles, this majestic aging chimp. 67 00:05:02,676 --> 00:05:05,196 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I think of Bubbles kind of as a 68 00:05:05,876 --> 00:05:09,716 Speaker 2: would be king in exile. You know, he's had this amazing, 69 00:05:09,796 --> 00:05:12,556 Speaker 2: adventurous life and now it's kind of been he's been 70 00:05:12,596 --> 00:05:18,196 Speaker 2: removed from and he's sort of biding his time away 71 00:05:18,276 --> 00:05:21,036 Speaker 2: from the life that he thought he was going to 72 00:05:21,116 --> 00:05:22,956 Speaker 2: have and from the kingdom that he felt that he 73 00:05:22,996 --> 00:05:23,836 Speaker 2: was going to inherit. 74 00:05:24,116 --> 00:05:28,836 Speaker 1: He's a tragic figure, yeah, definitely, Yeah, but he has 75 00:05:29,196 --> 00:05:31,556 Speaker 1: And what's hilarious. This is a comedy. 76 00:05:33,236 --> 00:05:34,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's core. 77 00:05:34,956 --> 00:05:37,476 Speaker 1: Yes, that's core. It's many other things as well, but 78 00:05:37,516 --> 00:05:40,716 Speaker 1: it's fundamentally a comedy. I must say parenthetically, Isaac that 79 00:05:40,876 --> 00:05:43,236 Speaker 1: I love this script so much. You know how in 80 00:05:43,276 --> 00:05:46,796 Speaker 1: your world in Hollywood it's always X meets Y. A 81 00:05:46,796 --> 00:05:48,556 Speaker 1: movie is always described as ex meets Why. You know 82 00:05:48,556 --> 00:05:51,996 Speaker 1: what this is? You probably, I'm sure you've thought this 83 00:05:52,156 --> 00:05:57,516 Speaker 1: is this script is uh uh Remains of the Day 84 00:05:58,076 --> 00:05:59,476 Speaker 1: meets Puff the Magic Dragon. 85 00:06:01,076 --> 00:06:03,196 Speaker 2: I actually has never thought of it that way. That's 86 00:06:03,196 --> 00:06:04,196 Speaker 2: what I hadn't heard before. 87 00:06:04,756 --> 00:06:06,116 Speaker 1: But do you see what do you do? You you 88 00:06:06,476 --> 00:06:07,956 Speaker 1: know what I'm you know what I'm getting at. 89 00:06:08,396 --> 00:06:10,516 Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely that makes sense. 90 00:06:10,636 --> 00:06:13,636 Speaker 1: So let's explain Bubbles is a real was a real chimp. 91 00:06:13,756 --> 00:06:16,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, correct, he was. He is a real chimp. He's 92 00:06:16,476 --> 00:06:20,036 Speaker 2: still alive and living at this Ape Sanctuary in Florida, and. 93 00:06:19,916 --> 00:06:23,516 Speaker 1: He he is famous, and he's probably one of the 94 00:06:23,596 --> 00:06:27,036 Speaker 1: most famous chimps of our generation. 95 00:06:28,196 --> 00:06:30,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would, I would think so for sure. I 96 00:06:30,356 --> 00:06:34,556 Speaker 2: mean he's up there with like Cheetah from previous generations. 97 00:06:34,596 --> 00:06:38,316 Speaker 1: I suppose, oh Cheetah, you mean like Tarzan ssidekick in 98 00:06:38,356 --> 00:06:42,276 Speaker 1: those tarz En movies and TV shows. So Bubbles is 99 00:06:42,316 --> 00:06:45,156 Speaker 1: on Cheetah's level. He's famous. 100 00:06:45,796 --> 00:06:49,396 Speaker 2: Uh, he is famous because he was Michael Jackson's Chimpionzee 101 00:06:49,476 --> 00:06:51,716 Speaker 2: during the height of Jackson's fame. 102 00:06:52,196 --> 00:06:55,516 Speaker 1: Yeah, and he was more than a kind of pet. 103 00:06:55,636 --> 00:06:57,876 Speaker 1: He was. He was like a he was like Michael 104 00:06:57,916 --> 00:06:58,916 Speaker 1: Jackson's companion. 105 00:06:59,116 --> 00:07:01,796 Speaker 2: He was when Michael Jackson went on tour. He took 106 00:07:01,876 --> 00:07:03,756 Speaker 2: him all over the world. You know, he tried to 107 00:07:03,756 --> 00:07:06,876 Speaker 2: take him to Europe. He had some trouble getting him 108 00:07:06,876 --> 00:07:11,596 Speaker 2: into the country because of the animal quarantine laws, but 109 00:07:11,716 --> 00:07:14,356 Speaker 2: he did. He took him to Japan, he took him. 110 00:07:14,716 --> 00:07:17,476 Speaker 2: He took him famously to a meeting with the mayor 111 00:07:17,516 --> 00:07:18,476 Speaker 2: of Osaka. 112 00:07:18,636 --> 00:07:22,356 Speaker 1: So you had this idea of doing a movie about 113 00:07:22,596 --> 00:07:26,876 Speaker 1: Michael Jackson seeing through the eyes of his chimp Bubbles. 114 00:07:28,436 --> 00:07:31,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess the genesis of it happened a long 115 00:07:31,276 --> 00:07:33,996 Speaker 2: time before I actually sat down to write the script. 116 00:07:33,996 --> 00:07:36,756 Speaker 2: You know, it was right around the time Michael Jackson died, 117 00:07:37,396 --> 00:07:40,836 Speaker 2: and there were all sorts of articles about every aspect 118 00:07:40,916 --> 00:07:45,636 Speaker 2: of his life. And I happened across something in like 119 00:07:45,916 --> 00:07:48,156 Speaker 2: People or you know, one of those magazines that you 120 00:07:48,276 --> 00:07:51,396 Speaker 2: kind of flipped through at the DAAs office, and it 121 00:07:51,476 --> 00:07:54,036 Speaker 2: was just a little blurb about, well, whatever happened to Bubbles, 122 00:07:54,076 --> 00:07:57,556 Speaker 2: you know, remember Michael Jackson's chimpanzee. And I thought out, 123 00:07:57,596 --> 00:07:59,836 Speaker 2: that's kind of interesting because I sort of remembered Bubbles 124 00:07:59,836 --> 00:08:03,156 Speaker 2: being around and everything. And then a couple of years later, 125 00:08:03,236 --> 00:08:06,516 Speaker 2: there was a there was a book that was shortlisted 126 00:08:07,116 --> 00:08:10,716 Speaker 2: for the Man Booker Prize in the UK, me Cheetah, 127 00:08:10,756 --> 00:08:13,956 Speaker 2: and I thought it was like the Tarzan story told 128 00:08:13,956 --> 00:08:16,876 Speaker 2: from Cheetah's perspective, that. It turns out I was totally wrong. 129 00:08:16,916 --> 00:08:18,916 Speaker 2: I didn't actually read the book. I just read about it. 130 00:08:18,916 --> 00:08:22,156 Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, that's an interesting idea. Yeah, so a 131 00:08:22,196 --> 00:08:24,796 Speaker 2: certain point, I just decided to try to write a 132 00:08:24,836 --> 00:08:28,236 Speaker 2: Michael Jackson story told from the perspective of this, you know, 133 00:08:28,356 --> 00:08:31,116 Speaker 2: of this chimpanzee. But it was really important to me 134 00:08:31,276 --> 00:08:36,636 Speaker 2: to make the chimpanzee the lead character, the real protagonist, 135 00:08:37,156 --> 00:08:39,276 Speaker 2: not just how it be. He's kind of a fly 136 00:08:39,396 --> 00:08:41,916 Speaker 2: on the wall witnessing all this crazy stuff going on. 137 00:08:42,436 --> 00:08:45,956 Speaker 1: And how did you come to give the give bubbles 138 00:08:45,996 --> 00:08:48,396 Speaker 1: the persona that he has. I mean, there's a million 139 00:08:48,396 --> 00:08:51,436 Speaker 1: directions you could go with a chimp. If we're going 140 00:08:51,476 --> 00:08:53,876 Speaker 1: to live inside the mind of a chimp, the chimp 141 00:08:53,916 --> 00:08:57,956 Speaker 1: could be a rascal, he could be a partier, he 142 00:08:57,996 --> 00:09:00,436 Speaker 1: could be a you know, I mean, he could be 143 00:09:00,436 --> 00:09:02,396 Speaker 1: the imagure, he could be an immature adolescent. I mean, 144 00:09:02,476 --> 00:09:07,996 Speaker 1: there's a million chimps, and you chose this kind of formal, 145 00:09:08,716 --> 00:09:15,196 Speaker 1: self serious, grandiose kind of character to be. How where 146 00:09:15,196 --> 00:09:17,036 Speaker 1: did that I where did that notion come from? 147 00:09:17,996 --> 00:09:20,596 Speaker 2: Well there was a couple of things, really, because yeah, 148 00:09:20,636 --> 00:09:23,556 Speaker 2: although this is a comedy, I did see it. You know, 149 00:09:23,676 --> 00:09:27,076 Speaker 2: as a tragedy. From Bubble's perspective, he sort of has 150 00:09:27,116 --> 00:09:30,396 Speaker 2: this notion that Michael Jackson is a real king, you know, 151 00:09:30,516 --> 00:09:34,716 Speaker 2: like a monarch, and chimpanzees are very hierarchical animals. There's 152 00:09:34,716 --> 00:09:37,356 Speaker 2: definitely a pecking order there. Once I sort of had 153 00:09:37,356 --> 00:09:39,956 Speaker 2: this idea of it's almost a Shakespearean tragedy about a 154 00:09:40,036 --> 00:09:42,716 Speaker 2: king and his son that would be king. Then I 155 00:09:42,756 --> 00:09:45,676 Speaker 2: started thinking, we'll be really funny if if Bubbles spoke 156 00:09:45,716 --> 00:09:49,516 Speaker 2: in this kind of pseudo Shakespearean language, just to elevate 157 00:09:49,556 --> 00:09:52,676 Speaker 2: it a little bit. Yeah, so that's kind of where 158 00:09:52,676 --> 00:09:54,396 Speaker 2: a lot of that came from. Yeah. 159 00:09:54,476 --> 00:09:58,396 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it gives him an enormous amount of dignity 160 00:09:59,636 --> 00:10:01,676 Speaker 1: if he was. If he was, this is one of 161 00:10:01,716 --> 00:10:03,476 Speaker 1: the first things that's struggling about this. I was like, 162 00:10:03,556 --> 00:10:07,636 Speaker 1: why am I Why do I feel Bubbles is pain? 163 00:10:07,796 --> 00:10:10,476 Speaker 1: Because he eventually will go through a great deal of pain. 164 00:10:10,596 --> 00:10:13,836 Speaker 1: I was asking, so why do I feel it so keenly? 165 00:10:14,596 --> 00:10:19,156 Speaker 1: And I realize it's because he has this very precious 166 00:10:19,196 --> 00:10:23,116 Speaker 1: dignity which he's going to enormous lengths to preserve. And 167 00:10:23,276 --> 00:10:27,036 Speaker 1: if he was just the stereotypical chimp who's just had 168 00:10:27,076 --> 00:10:31,836 Speaker 1: to eat bananas and jump around. Then there's no steakes 169 00:10:31,916 --> 00:10:35,436 Speaker 1: if he's right humiliated. But in this case, it was enormous. 170 00:10:35,476 --> 00:10:40,636 Speaker 1: I mean his pride, Bubbles. Bubbles just has this enormous 171 00:10:40,716 --> 00:10:45,516 Speaker 1: amount of pride in his position and his status and 172 00:10:45,556 --> 00:10:50,076 Speaker 1: his accomplishments and which is it's just deeply hilarious. 173 00:10:50,316 --> 00:10:51,956 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I think, you know, it would have 174 00:10:51,956 --> 00:10:55,996 Speaker 2: been a fun to just the visual juxtaposition of this chimpanzee, 175 00:10:55,996 --> 00:10:58,076 Speaker 2: which I think we all associate with that kind of 176 00:10:58,396 --> 00:11:02,396 Speaker 2: you know, wacky hygienks and slapstick and wrapping its head 177 00:11:02,436 --> 00:11:05,436 Speaker 2: and you know, blowing raspberries and all those things we've 178 00:11:05,476 --> 00:11:08,836 Speaker 2: seen in all kinds of movies and TV shows and 179 00:11:09,156 --> 00:11:12,916 Speaker 2: commercials and even nature documentaries. But then you know, having 180 00:11:12,916 --> 00:11:16,276 Speaker 2: that sort of goofy, funny exterior aspect to it, but 181 00:11:16,316 --> 00:11:20,156 Speaker 2: there's really sort of deep, kind of sad interior thing 182 00:11:20,196 --> 00:11:21,796 Speaker 2: going on at the same time. I thought that was 183 00:11:21,836 --> 00:11:23,396 Speaker 2: an interesting juxtaposition. 184 00:11:23,596 --> 00:11:27,476 Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's an he not only does he he 185 00:11:27,876 --> 00:11:32,556 Speaker 1: he misunderstands who Michael Jackson is. So when he when 186 00:11:32,756 --> 00:11:34,756 Speaker 1: Michael Jackson is referred to as the King of Pop, 187 00:11:35,396 --> 00:11:38,796 Speaker 1: Bubbles thinks that means he is the king actually the 188 00:11:38,916 --> 00:11:43,756 Speaker 1: king of pop And not only that, he consistently misunderstands 189 00:11:44,116 --> 00:11:46,436 Speaker 1: all these things that we understand about Michael Jackson. I'm 190 00:11:46,436 --> 00:11:49,236 Speaker 1: wondering if you could read there's that incredibly lovely scene 191 00:11:49,236 --> 00:11:53,356 Speaker 1: where he's talking about the first time he discusses Michael 192 00:11:53,476 --> 00:11:58,476 Speaker 1: Jackson's cosmetic surgery. Could you can you There's a number 193 00:11:58,516 --> 00:12:00,236 Speaker 1: of times where he does. But I'm wondering whether you 194 00:12:00,236 --> 00:12:03,756 Speaker 1: can find that section forgot with pagees on. Oh here 195 00:12:03,756 --> 00:12:05,796 Speaker 1: we are thirteen. 196 00:12:11,796 --> 00:12:17,396 Speaker 2: Interior, Havenhurst Mansion, Michael's bathroom night. Michael looks at the 197 00:12:17,396 --> 00:12:20,076 Speaker 2: man in the mirror, unhappily, inspecting his face for a 198 00:12:20,076 --> 00:12:23,636 Speaker 2: moment before picking up a bottle of Porcelina skin bleaching cream. 199 00:12:24,196 --> 00:12:26,596 Speaker 2: Bubbo sits on the stool next to him, watching as 200 00:12:26,636 --> 00:12:28,476 Speaker 2: Michael rubs the cream into his face. 201 00:12:29,996 --> 00:12:33,836 Speaker 3: Before venturing forth to the battlefield, he would don warpaint 202 00:12:33,916 --> 00:12:38,196 Speaker 3: that turned his face a spectral, phantasmic shade, meant to 203 00:12:38,276 --> 00:12:42,116 Speaker 3: strike fear into the heart of his enemies. 204 00:12:43,476 --> 00:12:47,156 Speaker 2: Later, Michael faces the mirror again, a bandage covers his nose. 205 00:12:47,596 --> 00:12:51,276 Speaker 3: Often he would return from these battles with bandages covering 206 00:12:51,356 --> 00:12:53,156 Speaker 3: wounds received in combat. 207 00:12:53,516 --> 00:12:57,396 Speaker 2: Michael peels the bandage away to reveal a noticeably narrowed nose. 208 00:12:58,556 --> 00:13:02,716 Speaker 3: But he had remarkable powers of self healing, each time, 209 00:13:02,836 --> 00:13:10,076 Speaker 3: recovering from such injuries without so much as a scarm. 210 00:13:10,116 --> 00:13:15,676 Speaker 1: He's such a hilariously unreliable narrator about his king. That's 211 00:13:15,676 --> 00:13:17,996 Speaker 1: like half the fun of this. That's why, you know 212 00:13:18,036 --> 00:13:21,156 Speaker 1: what I said, it's half Remains of the Day. Remains 213 00:13:21,196 --> 00:13:23,476 Speaker 1: of the Day as a novel about a butler to 214 00:13:23,596 --> 00:13:27,316 Speaker 1: an English lord who's sympathetic to the Nazis in the 215 00:13:27,356 --> 00:13:29,996 Speaker 1: years before the Second World War, and the butler thinks 216 00:13:29,996 --> 00:13:33,836 Speaker 1: that his master is one of the great statesmen of 217 00:13:33,876 --> 00:13:38,396 Speaker 1: his day instead of just being a groveling neo Nazi, 218 00:13:38,996 --> 00:13:43,796 Speaker 1: you know, and the whole that's a tragic novel. But 219 00:13:43,836 --> 00:13:47,756 Speaker 1: the whole thing is that butler never understands who his 220 00:13:48,196 --> 00:13:51,996 Speaker 1: master is. Yeah, but this is the same thing. Bubbles 221 00:13:52,076 --> 00:13:53,796 Speaker 1: is like the butler and remains the day. He just 222 00:13:53,836 --> 00:13:56,916 Speaker 1: doesn't he never ever cottons on to the kind of 223 00:13:58,716 --> 00:14:01,236 Speaker 1: holeomnists in Michael Jackson. 224 00:14:01,276 --> 00:14:04,156 Speaker 2: I guess yeah, I think you know, because he is 225 00:14:04,196 --> 00:14:06,476 Speaker 2: a chimpanzee, and he does he misinterprets a lot of 226 00:14:06,476 --> 00:14:08,716 Speaker 2: what he sees. I think it sort of allows him 227 00:14:08,756 --> 00:14:12,356 Speaker 2: to return innocence too that you know, Yeah, a quote 228 00:14:12,396 --> 00:14:14,636 Speaker 2: unquote normal person that was seeing some of the things 229 00:14:14,636 --> 00:14:18,916 Speaker 2: that Bubbles was exposed to. You know, we're coming to 230 00:14:18,956 --> 00:14:21,236 Speaker 2: say conclusions. The Bubbles does, for sure. 231 00:14:22,076 --> 00:14:25,716 Speaker 1: But Bubbles does there are certain things he used a 232 00:14:25,756 --> 00:14:33,076 Speaker 1: lot in this in this screenplay about Joe Michael Jackson's 233 00:14:33,116 --> 00:14:39,116 Speaker 1: tyrannical father, and Bubbles does understand that there is something 234 00:14:39,476 --> 00:14:42,956 Speaker 1: deeply kind of corrosive and tragic about that relationship. 235 00:14:43,036 --> 00:14:45,956 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true. I mean he does. I think one 236 00:14:45,996 --> 00:14:49,916 Speaker 2: thing that he's geared at sensing is sort of power dynamics, 237 00:14:50,316 --> 00:14:53,316 Speaker 2: and he can kind of understand that. Ye had Michael's 238 00:14:53,356 --> 00:14:56,876 Speaker 2: maybe the king, but here's this other figure who is 239 00:14:56,956 --> 00:14:59,716 Speaker 2: unkind to him but clearly has power over him. You know, 240 00:14:59,876 --> 00:15:00,916 Speaker 2: in some sense. 241 00:15:02,236 --> 00:15:04,196 Speaker 1: You have an enormous amount of fun in the script 242 00:15:04,276 --> 00:15:10,396 Speaker 1: with populating it with every single pop culture person of 243 00:15:10,436 --> 00:15:14,276 Speaker 1: them of the moment, I lost track, I was keeping 244 00:15:14,276 --> 00:15:17,916 Speaker 1: track of all of the cameos. We get Elizabeth Taylor, 245 00:15:18,436 --> 00:15:21,636 Speaker 1: we get lots of Quincy Jones, we get bon Jovi 246 00:15:21,836 --> 00:15:25,516 Speaker 1: in a hilarious scene when bon Jovi basically co opt 247 00:15:25,556 --> 00:15:30,516 Speaker 1: Bubbles for a crazy night on the town LaToya obviously, 248 00:15:32,356 --> 00:15:38,036 Speaker 1: Corey Feldman, Prince, Yeah, Prince. In a memorable scene when 249 00:15:38,076 --> 00:15:42,796 Speaker 1: we see Prince encounter Michael Jackson, threw bubbles his eyes, bubbles, 250 00:15:42,836 --> 00:15:43,756 Speaker 1: tries to make sense of. 251 00:15:45,796 --> 00:15:46,276 Speaker 2: The uh. 252 00:15:47,716 --> 00:15:50,876 Speaker 1: This, I mean, this part of the scripture sounds like 253 00:15:51,116 --> 00:15:54,996 Speaker 1: you must. I pictured you laughing out loud as you 254 00:15:54,996 --> 00:15:55,996 Speaker 1: were writing these scenes. 255 00:15:56,556 --> 00:16:00,596 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, definitely, every pretty much every scene there was 256 00:16:00,716 --> 00:16:02,676 Speaker 2: there is something that just made me giggle, And even 257 00:16:02,716 --> 00:16:04,876 Speaker 2: before I was writing it, when I was just researching 258 00:16:04,916 --> 00:16:07,676 Speaker 2: it and coming upon all these stories. I mean, bon 259 00:16:07,756 --> 00:16:10,596 Speaker 2: Jovi tells that story clip and I think it's on 260 00:16:10,676 --> 00:16:13,556 Speaker 2: YouTube about how when he was in Osaka. Yeah, he 261 00:16:14,196 --> 00:16:17,316 Speaker 2: basically they gave him bubbles for the night and they 262 00:16:17,316 --> 00:16:20,036 Speaker 2: just had a big hotel party. And the Prince story, 263 00:16:20,196 --> 00:16:22,156 Speaker 2: that's another one that was based on, you know, a 264 00:16:22,196 --> 00:16:24,876 Speaker 2: true thing that happened. I mean, Michael Jackson being the 265 00:16:24,996 --> 00:16:27,836 Speaker 2: massive figure he was at that time, he did interact 266 00:16:27,876 --> 00:16:30,676 Speaker 2: with pretty much everybody who was everybody you know in 267 00:16:30,836 --> 00:16:33,116 Speaker 2: pop culture during that period. 268 00:16:33,196 --> 00:16:36,796 Speaker 1: What's also interesting is that there's things happening inside bubbles 269 00:16:36,796 --> 00:16:39,556 Speaker 1: which you made up yourself. Everything that happens outside it 270 00:16:39,596 --> 00:16:43,516 Speaker 1: seems like so basically recovering Michael Jackson's life when he's 271 00:16:43,756 --> 00:16:48,116 Speaker 1: writing and touring for The Bad for Bad? Is it bad? 272 00:16:48,236 --> 00:16:48,956 Speaker 1: Was the appen called bad? 273 00:16:49,036 --> 00:16:50,076 Speaker 2: Yeah? It was bad? Yeah. 274 00:16:50,276 --> 00:16:54,556 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're just fishing through all of the true accounts 275 00:16:54,556 --> 00:16:58,076 Speaker 1: of that era and taking out stories basically. 276 00:16:58,156 --> 00:17:00,516 Speaker 2: Yeah. And there's other stories that I've heard, you know, 277 00:17:00,636 --> 00:17:03,796 Speaker 2: since since the script got out and I talked to 278 00:17:03,836 --> 00:17:06,556 Speaker 2: so many people about it and everybody was sharing their 279 00:17:06,556 --> 00:17:09,796 Speaker 2: Michael Jackson stories and rumors and all kinds. I've heard 280 00:17:09,796 --> 00:17:12,516 Speaker 2: a lot of others, just kind of wild stories since then, 281 00:17:12,636 --> 00:17:15,556 Speaker 2: you know, involving mcdonna and Michael Jackson, and some involving 282 00:17:15,596 --> 00:17:18,516 Speaker 2: Bubbles and people that that saw him when he was 283 00:17:18,516 --> 00:17:22,676 Speaker 2: at Neverland, And yeah, I've heard I've heard a couple 284 00:17:22,876 --> 00:17:25,156 Speaker 2: where Bubbles was probably not as well behaved as he 285 00:17:25,276 --> 00:17:28,436 Speaker 2: generally is in the script. Yeah. Yeah, well that's good. 286 00:17:28,476 --> 00:17:30,596 Speaker 1: That goes I'm saying, we have to give him, if 287 00:17:30,596 --> 00:17:32,356 Speaker 1: we're going to give him some dignity, he can't be 288 00:17:32,436 --> 00:17:37,596 Speaker 1: throwing his faces at the wall every every five minutes, right. Yeah, 289 00:17:39,676 --> 00:17:41,956 Speaker 1: of course, there are all kinds of things about Michael 290 00:17:42,036 --> 00:17:45,356 Speaker 1: Jackson's story that are not funny. When we come back 291 00:17:45,796 --> 00:17:48,476 Speaker 1: Isaac hits a roadblock as he tries to get the 292 00:17:48,476 --> 00:18:10,316 Speaker 1: Bubbles movie made. We're back Mychael Jackson dies in two 293 00:18:10,316 --> 00:18:14,836 Speaker 1: thousand and nine, but Bubbles is still alive, and nearly 294 00:18:14,876 --> 00:18:18,596 Speaker 1: six years later, Isaac Adamson writes the biopic We're talking 295 00:18:18,596 --> 00:18:20,996 Speaker 1: about the story of the King of Pop from the 296 00:18:20,996 --> 00:18:24,556 Speaker 1: point of view of his pet chimpanzee. He's thinking of 297 00:18:24,636 --> 00:18:27,996 Speaker 1: using stop motion animation to tell the story for obvious reasons. 298 00:18:28,476 --> 00:18:30,996 Speaker 1: Hollywood is used to dealing with Prima Donna's but a 299 00:18:31,116 --> 00:18:32,996 Speaker 1: chimp as the star of a movie would be on 300 00:18:33,036 --> 00:18:36,956 Speaker 1: a whole other level. And Isaac isn't ignoring the pedophilia 301 00:18:37,036 --> 00:18:42,156 Speaker 1: allegations against Michael Jackson. The Leaving Neverland documentary that exposed 302 00:18:42,276 --> 00:18:45,836 Speaker 1: Jackson's behavior isn't out yet, but there's been investigations in 303 00:18:45,876 --> 00:18:49,516 Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties that have become headline news. So around 304 00:18:49,556 --> 00:18:54,596 Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, Isaac takes his admittedly unusual project and starts 305 00:18:54,596 --> 00:18:59,716 Speaker 1: shopping it and studios like it. In twenty seventeen, Netflix 306 00:18:59,876 --> 00:19:04,356 Speaker 1: bought the project and Isaac entered development. 307 00:19:04,436 --> 00:19:13,036 Speaker 2: Hell, you know, when Netflix bought the project, I had 308 00:19:13,036 --> 00:19:17,036 Speaker 2: to do a pretty lengthy annotation for them, citing anything 309 00:19:17,076 --> 00:19:18,956 Speaker 2: in the script. I had to basically cite a source 310 00:19:19,036 --> 00:19:22,836 Speaker 2: for yeah, just to get clearance from their legal department, 311 00:19:22,876 --> 00:19:25,356 Speaker 2: and we ended up, you know, in the latest versions 312 00:19:25,396 --> 00:19:29,716 Speaker 2: of the script, some of the names changed in certain cases, 313 00:19:30,036 --> 00:19:33,356 Speaker 2: or a few characters kind of got squashed down into 314 00:19:33,396 --> 00:19:33,996 Speaker 2: one character. 315 00:19:34,836 --> 00:19:37,636 Speaker 1: Who did you lose in the in the legal review. 316 00:19:38,356 --> 00:19:42,396 Speaker 2: Well, the biggest change had to do with a lot 317 00:19:42,396 --> 00:19:45,356 Speaker 2: of this stuff related to legal charges that Michael Jackson faced, 318 00:19:45,516 --> 00:19:48,316 Speaker 2: and we just changed some of the names there because 319 00:19:48,316 --> 00:19:50,516 Speaker 2: there were a few things that were included in the 320 00:19:50,556 --> 00:19:53,356 Speaker 2: script that were a little bit there was a whole 321 00:19:53,356 --> 00:19:55,396 Speaker 2: lot of proof for the only stories about our like 322 00:19:55,756 --> 00:19:58,516 Speaker 2: disreputable British tabloids and stuff like that. 323 00:19:58,836 --> 00:20:01,436 Speaker 1: Yeah, So this brings up this crucial thing, which is 324 00:20:02,476 --> 00:20:09,356 Speaker 1: what begins as this kind of strange, kind of light 325 00:20:09,396 --> 00:20:15,196 Speaker 1: hearted romp takes a dark turn in the second act 326 00:20:15,436 --> 00:20:19,756 Speaker 1: and we actually get into my you know, Michael's well 327 00:20:19,796 --> 00:20:25,316 Speaker 1: known the well known allegations around Michael Jackson's pedophilia, only 328 00:20:25,956 --> 00:20:28,476 Speaker 1: this time we're seeing it through the eyes of a 329 00:20:28,636 --> 00:20:33,676 Speaker 1: kind of jilted of our jilted chimp. Who's Who's Who's 330 00:20:33,956 --> 00:20:39,276 Speaker 1: place of prominence next to Michael has been uh, he's 331 00:20:39,276 --> 00:20:48,316 Speaker 1: been supplanted by by by a young boy. Yeah, and Isaac, 332 00:20:48,396 --> 00:20:49,916 Speaker 1: this is like it gets heavy. 333 00:20:50,956 --> 00:20:54,196 Speaker 2: It does, Yeah, it does. I mean it's a heavy 334 00:20:54,236 --> 00:20:56,356 Speaker 2: it's a heavy kind of story. I feel like the 335 00:20:56,396 --> 00:20:58,956 Speaker 2: Michael Jackson story is a heavy story, and Bubble's story 336 00:20:58,996 --> 00:21:02,156 Speaker 2: within that story, it is kind of a heavy story. 337 00:21:02,156 --> 00:21:04,996 Speaker 2: But yeah, I think you've used these kids at first 338 00:21:05,036 --> 00:21:08,236 Speaker 2: as just sort of these annoying sort of interlopers that 339 00:21:08,316 --> 00:21:12,276 Speaker 2: are that are taking Michael's attention away from him, and 340 00:21:12,316 --> 00:21:14,636 Speaker 2: then he sees them kind of, you know, as rivals 341 00:21:15,236 --> 00:21:17,996 Speaker 2: and even comes to fear like maybe they're actually part 342 00:21:17,996 --> 00:21:19,396 Speaker 2: of the succession now and not me. 343 00:21:20,516 --> 00:21:24,196 Speaker 1: Once again, the one way in which Bubbles is h 344 00:21:24,316 --> 00:21:29,996 Speaker 1: sees the world clearly is to the the prism of hierarchy, right, 345 00:21:30,116 --> 00:21:34,836 Speaker 1: and so he understands accurately that in the in Michael 346 00:21:34,916 --> 00:21:40,396 Speaker 1: Jackson's hierarchy, these boys are now higher up than he is. Correct, 347 00:21:40,516 --> 00:21:43,676 Speaker 1: they can they occupy a place in Michael's heart that 348 00:21:43,716 --> 00:21:46,716 Speaker 1: he does not. And this is, like I said, this 349 00:21:46,796 --> 00:21:49,956 Speaker 1: is why I said, this is remains the day meets Puff, 350 00:21:49,996 --> 00:21:52,076 Speaker 1: the Magic Dragon. It's the Puff story. Then when day 351 00:21:52,116 --> 00:21:56,836 Speaker 1: it happened, Jackie Paper came no more. It's that's that's 352 00:21:56,836 --> 00:22:01,476 Speaker 1: what happens to him. He gets pushed aside, and it's like, 353 00:22:02,396 --> 00:22:06,476 Speaker 1: it broke my heart when that happened. 354 00:22:08,276 --> 00:22:11,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's a tough Uh, it's a tough moment. 355 00:22:11,196 --> 00:22:13,436 Speaker 2: It's tough thing for bubbles. And I think you know, 356 00:22:13,516 --> 00:22:16,356 Speaker 2: if you if you talk to the kids who were 357 00:22:16,436 --> 00:22:19,396 Speaker 2: around Michael Jackson a lot at that time, I think 358 00:22:19,436 --> 00:22:22,676 Speaker 2: a lot of them went through similar experiences with him 359 00:22:22,796 --> 00:22:27,556 Speaker 2: when where you know, he they were his favorite, and 360 00:22:27,596 --> 00:22:30,076 Speaker 2: then some and then someone else came along, you know, 361 00:22:30,276 --> 00:22:32,156 Speaker 2: and they were just sort of jilted out of out 362 00:22:32,196 --> 00:22:35,716 Speaker 2: of neverland. And I think, you know, and in certain 363 00:22:35,756 --> 00:22:38,476 Speaker 2: cases that that hurt these kids a lot, even some 364 00:22:38,516 --> 00:22:40,756 Speaker 2: of the ones that like Corey Fellman, you know, who 365 00:22:40,836 --> 00:22:43,316 Speaker 2: says that Michael Jackson never touched him or you know, 366 00:22:43,396 --> 00:22:46,636 Speaker 2: did anything sexually untoward, but he was just hurt by 367 00:22:46,636 --> 00:22:49,196 Speaker 2: that whole experience of feeling like they were buddies and 368 00:22:49,236 --> 00:22:50,996 Speaker 2: he was the favorite, and then one day he's just 369 00:22:51,036 --> 00:22:52,796 Speaker 2: out mm hmmm hmm. 370 00:22:53,676 --> 00:22:58,356 Speaker 1: What does it do to our understanding of that part 371 00:22:58,396 --> 00:23:02,876 Speaker 1: of Michael Jackson's life that we're viewing it to the 372 00:23:02,876 --> 00:23:04,156 Speaker 1: eyes of a chimp. 373 00:23:07,236 --> 00:23:12,996 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question. I feel like, you know, 374 00:23:13,036 --> 00:23:16,556 Speaker 2: in a certain sense, it gives us bubbles interpretation and 375 00:23:16,636 --> 00:23:21,316 Speaker 2: often misinterpretation of these things that he sees. It works 376 00:23:21,316 --> 00:23:24,796 Speaker 2: almost as a distant distcencing device that allows us to 377 00:23:25,076 --> 00:23:29,356 Speaker 2: sort of see things through a different viewpoint that wasn't 378 00:23:29,396 --> 00:23:32,516 Speaker 2: necessarily our own, you know, or the way I experienced 379 00:23:32,596 --> 00:23:34,556 Speaker 2: Michael Jackson when I was a kid growing up in 380 00:23:34,596 --> 00:23:38,836 Speaker 2: the eighties. I mean, when I was growing up and 381 00:23:38,916 --> 00:23:41,956 Speaker 2: where I was, it didn't really matter what kind of 382 00:23:41,996 --> 00:23:44,836 Speaker 2: music you listened to, you liked Michael Jackson. Like, if 383 00:23:44,876 --> 00:23:48,316 Speaker 2: you were into you know, Iron Maiden and heavy metal 384 00:23:48,356 --> 00:23:50,516 Speaker 2: and all that stuff, you still like Michael Jackson. If 385 00:23:50,556 --> 00:23:53,076 Speaker 2: you were listening to Duran, Duran and a bunch of 386 00:23:53,116 --> 00:23:56,236 Speaker 2: new Waves, you still like Michael Jackson. Everybody liked Michael Jackson, 387 00:23:57,076 --> 00:23:59,756 Speaker 2: you know. I remember seeing the Thriller video a thousand 388 00:23:59,876 --> 00:24:01,796 Speaker 2: times on MTV when I was when I was a 389 00:24:01,796 --> 00:24:04,876 Speaker 2: little kid, So yeah, I was definitely a fan. Yeah. 390 00:24:05,516 --> 00:24:08,516 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm trying to kind of figure out why years later, 391 00:24:09,156 --> 00:24:11,876 Speaker 1: the kind of psychological dimensions of this story would have 392 00:24:13,036 --> 00:24:16,276 Speaker 1: would have been so kind of clear to you, right, 393 00:24:16,356 --> 00:24:19,556 Speaker 1: the sort of weird like you know, an entire generation 394 00:24:19,596 --> 00:24:22,676 Speaker 1: of seventh grader is kind of encounter Michael Jackson. 395 00:24:22,796 --> 00:24:25,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm sure a lot of 396 00:24:25,876 --> 00:24:28,876 Speaker 2: people were jealous of those real life kids at the 397 00:24:28,876 --> 00:24:31,756 Speaker 2: time that you know, oh my god, you know, Jimmy's 398 00:24:31,836 --> 00:24:34,156 Speaker 2: getting to go to Neverland, getting to go on vacation 399 00:24:34,276 --> 00:24:36,876 Speaker 2: with Michael, and it looked like the greatest life ever. 400 00:24:36,916 --> 00:24:39,916 Speaker 2: You're just eating ice cream and watching movies and you know, 401 00:24:40,676 --> 00:24:42,916 Speaker 2: riding on the Ferris we opt Michael Jackson's house and 402 00:24:42,916 --> 00:24:44,916 Speaker 2: all that kind of thing, and just the sort of, 403 00:24:45,076 --> 00:24:48,836 Speaker 2: you know, the darkness that was actually going on and 404 00:24:48,956 --> 00:24:51,476 Speaker 2: eat or even in just the sort of hollowness of 405 00:24:51,516 --> 00:24:54,996 Speaker 2: those kind of fake friendships too. It was something that 406 00:24:55,036 --> 00:24:57,516 Speaker 2: I don't think a lot of people certainly knew at 407 00:24:57,556 --> 00:24:57,956 Speaker 2: the time. 408 00:24:59,156 --> 00:25:03,756 Speaker 1: Do you think that that scene Michael through Bubble's eyes 409 00:25:04,276 --> 00:25:10,836 Speaker 1: makes Michael a more sympathetic character to us or less. 410 00:25:12,156 --> 00:25:17,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's tough. I mean, I think he probably comes 411 00:25:17,756 --> 00:25:20,956 Speaker 2: off as a little bit less sympathetic because we are 412 00:25:21,116 --> 00:25:24,156 Speaker 2: we're told the story from kind of a quote unquote 413 00:25:24,196 --> 00:25:27,516 Speaker 2: victim's viewpoint, you know, because it is it is Bubbles 414 00:25:27,516 --> 00:25:30,916 Speaker 2: telling the story. But at the same time, Bubbles can't really, 415 00:25:31,596 --> 00:25:34,276 Speaker 2: especially in the early, you know version of the script, 416 00:25:34,596 --> 00:25:39,996 Speaker 2: can't really bring himself to to hate Michael Jackson. He's 417 00:25:39,996 --> 00:25:42,316 Speaker 2: still even in the last you know that that first 418 00:25:42,356 --> 00:25:44,436 Speaker 2: scene I read, in the last scene in the script, 419 00:25:44,956 --> 00:25:47,836 Speaker 2: he's hoping one day Michael Jackson is going to come again. 420 00:25:47,916 --> 00:25:51,636 Speaker 2: He's still waiting for Michael to return, you know, so 421 00:25:51,676 --> 00:25:56,636 Speaker 2: they can rule the world together once more. But yeah, 422 00:25:56,636 --> 00:25:59,276 Speaker 2: it's tough. I don't I think maybe different audiences would 423 00:25:59,316 --> 00:26:01,636 Speaker 2: have different reactions. You know, everybody has a lot of 424 00:26:01,876 --> 00:26:03,996 Speaker 2: different reactions to Michael Jackson in general. 425 00:26:04,716 --> 00:26:07,036 Speaker 1: Yeah, what was hard about writing the script? 426 00:26:09,876 --> 00:26:12,396 Speaker 2: You know, honestly, just from a technical point of view, 427 00:26:12,676 --> 00:26:16,676 Speaker 2: the hardest thing was keeping Bubbles as the protagonist and 428 00:26:16,756 --> 00:26:19,876 Speaker 2: not letting Michael take over too much of the script, 429 00:26:19,996 --> 00:26:22,436 Speaker 2: just because he is such a such a compelling figure, 430 00:26:22,956 --> 00:26:25,596 Speaker 2: and you know, finding ways to include the moments that 431 00:26:25,636 --> 00:26:30,476 Speaker 2: I wanted from Michael Jackson's life, but have Bubbles somehow 432 00:26:30,716 --> 00:26:34,396 Speaker 2: be there for them, hopefully and more than just like 433 00:26:34,396 --> 00:26:35,996 Speaker 2: like I was saying, for a fly on the wall 434 00:26:35,996 --> 00:26:38,316 Speaker 2: capacity where he's just sort of reporting what he's seeing, 435 00:26:39,716 --> 00:26:42,716 Speaker 2: because to give him stakes in some of those instances. 436 00:26:43,156 --> 00:26:46,396 Speaker 1: But he can't The thing about Bubbles is he can't 437 00:26:46,796 --> 00:26:50,676 Speaker 1: grow Kenny. He he's if you if you have an 438 00:26:50,716 --> 00:26:55,756 Speaker 1: unreliable narrator, as in Remains of the Day, the pathos 439 00:26:56,556 --> 00:26:59,716 Speaker 1: comes from the fact that the world outside the narrator 440 00:27:00,356 --> 00:27:02,756 Speaker 1: changes and the narrator is blind to it. Right, So 441 00:27:02,876 --> 00:27:07,156 Speaker 1: you if the unreliable narrator becomes reliable at the end, 442 00:27:08,316 --> 00:27:09,516 Speaker 1: then it kind of roomined it. 443 00:27:09,596 --> 00:27:13,276 Speaker 2: Oh my wrong, Yeah, that's a good that's a good 444 00:27:13,356 --> 00:27:17,836 Speaker 2: question too, especially as it relates to sort of you know, 445 00:27:17,996 --> 00:27:22,836 Speaker 2: versions of the script that we that we revised after 446 00:27:22,996 --> 00:27:26,116 Speaker 2: leaving never Land. It came out I think I felt 447 00:27:26,276 --> 00:27:29,636 Speaker 2: and the producers thought that we couldn't allow Bubbles to 448 00:27:29,756 --> 00:27:36,156 Speaker 2: be quite as ambiguous or I guess agnostic about what 449 00:27:36,276 --> 00:27:40,436 Speaker 2: happened it never Land, because he is telling our movie 450 00:27:40,476 --> 00:27:43,876 Speaker 2: and then therefore makes the movie feel like we're agnostic 451 00:27:43,876 --> 00:27:45,996 Speaker 2: about it and you know, trying to question, well, maybe 452 00:27:46,036 --> 00:27:48,396 Speaker 2: all those terrible things didn't happen, which was not our 453 00:27:48,436 --> 00:27:52,036 Speaker 2: intention at all. So in later versions of the script 454 00:27:53,076 --> 00:27:55,916 Speaker 2: and the changes are pretty small, but I think Bubbles 455 00:27:55,956 --> 00:27:59,916 Speaker 2: does display a clearer understanding, clearer understanding of what's going 456 00:27:59,916 --> 00:28:02,916 Speaker 2: on there. It kind of loses his innocence a little bit, 457 00:28:03,596 --> 00:28:07,316 Speaker 2: and his parting with Michael Jackson is a little more final. 458 00:28:07,436 --> 00:28:10,516 Speaker 2: We don't really see him long, you know, to see 459 00:28:10,556 --> 00:28:14,756 Speaker 2: Michael again in those last moments. I do feel like 460 00:28:15,236 --> 00:28:19,796 Speaker 2: kind of needed to write it that way based on 461 00:28:19,836 --> 00:28:22,396 Speaker 2: everything going on. But it is a good question whether 462 00:28:22,436 --> 00:28:24,876 Speaker 2: that sort of undermines a lot of a lot of 463 00:28:24,916 --> 00:28:27,156 Speaker 2: the other things in the script about you know, his 464 00:28:27,316 --> 00:28:30,876 Speaker 2: unreliable narration and his innocence over a while. I think 465 00:28:30,876 --> 00:28:33,276 Speaker 2: he became a little bit less innocent character in the 466 00:28:34,236 --> 00:28:37,156 Speaker 2: in the final versions of it, as I think everybody became, 467 00:28:37,316 --> 00:28:40,196 Speaker 2: you know, less innocent after leaving Neverland hit and really 468 00:28:40,236 --> 00:28:42,396 Speaker 2: had the impact that it did. I don't think people 469 00:28:42,476 --> 00:28:47,836 Speaker 2: could pretend, you know, pretending more about Michael Jackson, who 470 00:28:48,276 --> 00:28:51,116 Speaker 2: who really was, at least in certain aspects of his life. 471 00:28:52,276 --> 00:28:54,516 Speaker 1: Talk a little bit more about leaving Nozzlin, which comes 472 00:28:54,516 --> 00:28:55,276 Speaker 1: out when. 473 00:28:57,156 --> 00:29:01,636 Speaker 2: I believe it was January twenty nineteen, premiered at sun Dance. 474 00:29:01,876 --> 00:29:05,236 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so you and you wrote your script? First 475 00:29:05,316 --> 00:29:06,316 Speaker 1: draft was written when? 476 00:29:09,396 --> 00:29:11,996 Speaker 2: Yeah, this the first draft of this script was written 477 00:29:12,636 --> 00:29:13,996 Speaker 2: in March twenty fifteen. 478 00:29:14,876 --> 00:29:16,236 Speaker 1: And when do you see it? Do you see it 479 00:29:16,276 --> 00:29:16,716 Speaker 1: right away? 480 00:29:18,636 --> 00:29:21,596 Speaker 2: I didn't see it right away. It's funny. My manager 481 00:29:21,956 --> 00:29:23,956 Speaker 2: was in Sundance and he went to the premiere of 482 00:29:23,956 --> 00:29:26,796 Speaker 2: it and he called me immediately and it's like, I 483 00:29:26,836 --> 00:29:30,196 Speaker 2: think we got a problem. Then I saw the film, 484 00:29:30,316 --> 00:29:32,836 Speaker 2: and the thing that I really underestimated was just the 485 00:29:32,876 --> 00:29:36,396 Speaker 2: power of hearing these guys tell their own stories in 486 00:29:36,476 --> 00:29:40,516 Speaker 2: their own words, and you know, they really become real 487 00:29:40,556 --> 00:29:42,396 Speaker 2: people in a way that they're not when you're just 488 00:29:42,396 --> 00:29:45,756 Speaker 2: looking at court documents or magazine article or something like that, 489 00:29:46,236 --> 00:29:49,036 Speaker 2: and you really heard them, you know, expressing the hurt 490 00:29:49,076 --> 00:29:54,436 Speaker 2: and the pain of the things that they had been through. Yeah, 491 00:29:54,516 --> 00:29:56,756 Speaker 2: I mean that had that had a huge impact on 492 00:29:56,756 --> 00:29:59,956 Speaker 2: the project for sure, in the negative sense for me. 493 00:30:00,156 --> 00:30:03,756 Speaker 1: But when you when your manager said you had a problem, 494 00:30:03,876 --> 00:30:06,476 Speaker 1: what did he mean exactly? Did he mean that the 495 00:30:06,516 --> 00:30:11,556 Speaker 1: script as it presently is doesn't work anymore because it's 496 00:30:11,556 --> 00:30:17,236 Speaker 1: too ambiguous about Michael Jackson's kind of sinister side or 497 00:30:17,236 --> 00:30:19,876 Speaker 1: does it mean did he mean that just that you 498 00:30:19,916 --> 00:30:22,156 Speaker 1: had to rewrite it? I mean, how dire was your 499 00:30:22,236 --> 00:30:23,916 Speaker 1: manager's kind of perspective. 500 00:30:25,716 --> 00:30:28,276 Speaker 2: I think the real problem and the thing that he 501 00:30:28,356 --> 00:30:31,356 Speaker 2: saw coming was that Michael Jackson was just going to 502 00:30:31,396 --> 00:30:34,636 Speaker 2: be toxic, and I think once Leaving Neverland came out, 503 00:30:34,676 --> 00:30:37,116 Speaker 2: it was going to be hard to make this sort 504 00:30:37,116 --> 00:30:39,356 Speaker 2: of whimsical, fun movie that I think a lot of 505 00:30:39,396 --> 00:30:44,956 Speaker 2: people thought they were signing up for coming onto this project. Yeah, 506 00:30:44,956 --> 00:30:46,636 Speaker 2: I think that's what he meant by We're in trouble, 507 00:30:46,756 --> 00:30:50,796 Speaker 2: just because almost overnight just sort of perception around Michael 508 00:30:50,876 --> 00:30:54,276 Speaker 2: Jackson changed and nobody wanted anything to do with any 509 00:30:54,356 --> 00:30:56,036 Speaker 2: Michael Jackson project at that time. 510 00:30:57,116 --> 00:31:01,076 Speaker 1: So, prior to Leaving Neverland, was this script on track 511 00:31:01,156 --> 00:31:02,156 Speaker 1: to be made into a movie. 512 00:31:02,956 --> 00:31:06,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. We had Taikaway TV you know, attached 513 00:31:06,756 --> 00:31:10,516 Speaker 2: to direct it, and there was another director, Marcus Staffson, 514 00:31:10,596 --> 00:31:12,476 Speaker 2: who was going to work on all the stop motion 515 00:31:12,596 --> 00:31:14,796 Speaker 2: animation because that's how we had decided to do it. 516 00:31:15,716 --> 00:31:19,236 Speaker 2: Dan Harmon and Starburns was producing it, so we had 517 00:31:19,236 --> 00:31:23,076 Speaker 2: all his his company was on it. Netflix bought the 518 00:31:23,116 --> 00:31:26,596 Speaker 2: project at Con and I think it was twenty seventeen, 519 00:31:28,116 --> 00:31:30,716 Speaker 2: so yeah, it was. It was kind of ready to go. 520 00:31:33,876 --> 00:31:38,036 Speaker 2: The two things that killed it were well, Taiko yitd 521 00:31:39,796 --> 00:31:41,596 Speaker 2: had this other movie that he wanted to do kind 522 00:31:41,596 --> 00:31:45,556 Speaker 2: of in the meantime called Jojo Rabbit, So yeah, you know, 523 00:31:45,676 --> 00:31:48,116 Speaker 2: he went off to do that, and then in the meantime, 524 00:31:49,196 --> 00:31:52,796 Speaker 2: Leaving Neverland came out, and I think we got to 525 00:31:52,836 --> 00:31:56,276 Speaker 2: a point and we're pretty deep in pre production. They'd 526 00:31:56,276 --> 00:31:59,236 Speaker 2: already hired all the department heads, we had forty some 527 00:31:59,396 --> 00:32:02,356 Speaker 2: animators working on it, and it was kind of getting 528 00:32:02,356 --> 00:32:04,636 Speaker 2: to the point where we needed we need to Tyke 529 00:32:04,716 --> 00:32:07,956 Speaker 2: I to really engage and start making some directorial decisions. 530 00:32:08,516 --> 00:32:11,196 Speaker 2: And he was just not engaged in the project. We 531 00:32:11,236 --> 00:32:13,316 Speaker 2: knew something was up, and finally he just you know, 532 00:32:13,356 --> 00:32:15,796 Speaker 2: he made the call to his agent or whatever, get 533 00:32:15,836 --> 00:32:19,276 Speaker 2: me out of this. I can't do this anymore. And 534 00:32:19,516 --> 00:32:24,396 Speaker 2: that's when it sort of died. Netflix had said, well, 535 00:32:25,196 --> 00:32:27,956 Speaker 2: you've got two months to find another director for this, 536 00:32:28,436 --> 00:32:30,956 Speaker 2: and then three days later they completely changed their minds 537 00:32:31,036 --> 00:32:34,356 Speaker 2: went no, we're killing it. Everybody's fired. Go home. So yeah, 538 00:32:34,396 --> 00:32:35,956 Speaker 2: that that's not a good day. 539 00:32:39,076 --> 00:32:54,316 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. Do you do you did the 540 00:32:54,356 --> 00:32:56,396 Speaker 1: script revert to you at any point or do they 541 00:32:56,436 --> 00:32:56,796 Speaker 1: own it? 542 00:32:57,556 --> 00:33:00,316 Speaker 2: It has recently? Yeah, I own it now. Yeah. 543 00:33:01,116 --> 00:33:01,956 Speaker 1: Do you think it's dead? 544 00:33:03,436 --> 00:33:06,996 Speaker 2: I don't know. You know, things kind of never die. 545 00:33:07,476 --> 00:33:09,476 Speaker 2: It's funny and people bring it up to me all time, 546 00:33:09,516 --> 00:33:13,356 Speaker 2: but we haven't really pursued any serious avenues towards getting 547 00:33:13,356 --> 00:33:15,796 Speaker 2: it going again, but who knows. I will say it's 548 00:33:15,876 --> 00:33:18,156 Speaker 2: it's pretty obvious to me that Michael Jackson, just as 549 00:33:18,196 --> 00:33:21,396 Speaker 2: a public figure is not. I mean, you know, they're 550 00:33:21,396 --> 00:33:25,436 Speaker 2: making a Michael Jackson biopic right now. Just yesterday, I 551 00:33:25,556 --> 00:33:28,236 Speaker 2: sure on the on the Super Bowl was wearing you know, 552 00:33:28,276 --> 00:33:30,996 Speaker 2: like a Michael Jackson glove. I don't think we would 553 00:33:31,036 --> 00:33:33,556 Speaker 2: have seen that in the immediate wake of leaving Neverland. 554 00:33:33,916 --> 00:33:39,516 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny because I I to take 555 00:33:39,556 --> 00:33:43,796 Speaker 1: a contrary position. I feel like this is more interesting 556 00:33:43,916 --> 00:33:49,196 Speaker 1: post never Land than pre Neverland. I mean, it goes 557 00:33:49,236 --> 00:33:52,396 Speaker 1: from being if you do this in this movie at 558 00:33:52,396 --> 00:33:56,076 Speaker 1: a time when we think of Michael as a talented eccentric, 559 00:33:57,316 --> 00:34:02,236 Speaker 1: then the movie is fun and whimsical, but there's nothing 560 00:34:02,276 --> 00:34:06,716 Speaker 1: at stake. It's just it's just another log on the 561 00:34:06,756 --> 00:34:11,476 Speaker 1: fire of Jackson celebrity. It's a clever log and the 562 00:34:11,476 --> 00:34:14,076 Speaker 1: fire you know, is wonderful, but it's not deviating in 563 00:34:14,116 --> 00:34:18,476 Speaker 1: any But now it's like now that they know going 564 00:34:18,516 --> 00:34:21,836 Speaker 1: in that Michael Jackson is this kind of complicated, twisted, 565 00:34:23,836 --> 00:34:29,636 Speaker 1: deeply problematic figure. Then the fact that Bubbles is straining 566 00:34:29,716 --> 00:34:34,836 Speaker 1: through his chimp eyes to see him clearly and failing 567 00:34:35,156 --> 00:34:40,316 Speaker 1: is like it's got it's heart wrenching. This movie now 568 00:34:40,356 --> 00:34:42,876 Speaker 1: has kind of it's got steaks now that it didn't 569 00:34:42,876 --> 00:34:46,556 Speaker 1: have before. It's like, it's important for us to know 570 00:34:46,596 --> 00:34:50,596 Speaker 1: what we know about Michael Jackson for this to move 571 00:34:50,676 --> 00:34:54,036 Speaker 1: us emotionally. And what you're saying, you know, this idea 572 00:34:54,076 --> 00:34:57,236 Speaker 1: that Michael Jackson's toxic or is more toxic than it 573 00:34:57,316 --> 00:35:00,196 Speaker 1: used to be, is absolutely right. But this is not 574 00:35:00,276 --> 00:35:04,476 Speaker 1: a Michael Jackson movie. It's a Bubbles movie. It's a 575 00:35:04,476 --> 00:35:10,596 Speaker 1: movie about bubbles, right, A naive underling with this kind 576 00:35:10,596 --> 00:35:15,596 Speaker 1: of self deception, powerful self deception, trying to make sense 577 00:35:15,716 --> 00:35:18,956 Speaker 1: of a world that he has no understanding of. 578 00:35:19,756 --> 00:35:24,676 Speaker 2: It's like it's heartbreaking, Yeah, I mean to me, it is. 579 00:35:25,236 --> 00:35:28,636 Speaker 2: I don't think anything. What we've learned about Michael Jackson. 580 00:35:30,276 --> 00:35:33,356 Speaker 2: It's been funny to me because I say we learned it, 581 00:35:33,396 --> 00:35:36,636 Speaker 2: but everybody kind of knew it anyway. And that's what's 582 00:35:36,636 --> 00:35:40,476 Speaker 2: been odd about the reaction to me is that there 583 00:35:40,516 --> 00:35:43,316 Speaker 2: wasn't anything new in these revelations, but suddenly had been 584 00:35:43,356 --> 00:35:46,076 Speaker 2: gone through me too, and all the stuff that came 585 00:35:46,116 --> 00:35:49,076 Speaker 2: with it. I think we just as a culture learned 586 00:35:49,076 --> 00:35:50,796 Speaker 2: to take a lot of that stuff a lot more 587 00:35:50,876 --> 00:35:54,396 Speaker 2: seriously and you know, give it the weight that it deserves. 588 00:35:54,796 --> 00:35:57,516 Speaker 2: And I think that's what sort of changed about, you know, 589 00:35:57,556 --> 00:36:00,716 Speaker 2: the public perception at least of Michael Jackson. But for me, 590 00:36:01,156 --> 00:36:03,516 Speaker 2: I mean I always, I always kind of believed that 591 00:36:04,196 --> 00:36:05,396 Speaker 2: the kids are telling the truth. 592 00:36:05,636 --> 00:36:09,996 Speaker 1: You know, Bubbles becomes a stand in for us all. 593 00:36:10,836 --> 00:36:14,836 Speaker 1: We all looked the other way with Michael Jackson for years, 594 00:36:15,236 --> 00:36:17,196 Speaker 1: right because we were in love with his talent and 595 00:36:17,196 --> 00:36:21,076 Speaker 1: his music, and Bubbles is just he's just representing our 596 00:36:21,116 --> 00:36:26,636 Speaker 1: own kind of a willful blindness. Bubbles just wants thinks 597 00:36:26,636 --> 00:36:29,756 Speaker 1: he's the king, and because he's the king, he's not 598 00:36:29,796 --> 00:36:34,036 Speaker 1: willing to entertain any idea that his monarch might be flawed, 599 00:36:35,396 --> 00:36:37,796 Speaker 1: at least until the very end. Or And I think 600 00:36:37,836 --> 00:36:41,796 Speaker 1: that's like, like I said, it's such a stronger, better, 601 00:36:43,556 --> 00:36:47,396 Speaker 1: more more powerful movie after that stuff's come out. 602 00:36:49,396 --> 00:36:53,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I would agree. I think what frightens 603 00:36:53,116 --> 00:36:55,116 Speaker 2: a lot of people, or at least did you know 604 00:36:55,156 --> 00:36:57,076 Speaker 2: a few years ago when this was all when the 605 00:36:57,116 --> 00:37:00,196 Speaker 2: movie sort of fell apart, It's just the sort of 606 00:37:00,356 --> 00:37:05,596 Speaker 2: moral panic around anything related to pedophilia in our country currently, 607 00:37:05,676 --> 00:37:09,836 Speaker 2: you know, whether it's stuff like Pizza Gate or just 608 00:37:09,956 --> 00:37:14,836 Speaker 2: using pedo as a broad insult. I know Netflix had 609 00:37:14,836 --> 00:37:17,796 Speaker 2: gone through some things too, with the controversy surrounding quds. 610 00:37:18,356 --> 00:37:23,396 Speaker 2: I just think that it just became it became a 611 00:37:23,436 --> 00:37:25,956 Speaker 2: word that you know, nobody really wanted to be associated 612 00:37:25,996 --> 00:37:29,996 Speaker 2: with in any form whatsoever. You know, don't even want 613 00:37:29,996 --> 00:37:31,916 Speaker 2: it coming out of their mouths when they're talking about 614 00:37:31,956 --> 00:37:35,236 Speaker 2: a movie. And I can understand too, Why why if you're, 615 00:37:35,316 --> 00:37:37,636 Speaker 2: you know, a big name director, you don't want to 616 00:37:37,636 --> 00:37:39,956 Speaker 2: spend a whole lot of time at Coln or wherever 617 00:37:40,076 --> 00:37:43,996 Speaker 2: answering questions about Michael Jackson's pedophelia. You know, I can 618 00:37:44,076 --> 00:37:47,316 Speaker 2: understand one, you know, not just not wanting to deal 619 00:37:47,356 --> 00:37:50,356 Speaker 2: with it. But I agree. I think it does make 620 00:37:50,356 --> 00:37:52,396 Speaker 2: the story a little bit deeper, a little bit more interesting, 621 00:37:52,396 --> 00:37:55,076 Speaker 2: and I think it does implicate the audience in some 622 00:37:55,236 --> 00:37:56,076 Speaker 2: interesting ways. 623 00:37:57,476 --> 00:37:59,596 Speaker 1: I mean, this is the story. What happens to the 624 00:37:59,596 --> 00:38:04,036 Speaker 1: script is this kind of the the the meta story 625 00:38:04,156 --> 00:38:10,836 Speaker 1: is about kind of Hollywood abandoning it's because position as 626 00:38:11,196 --> 00:38:15,116 Speaker 1: a kind of cultural authority. I mean, you would think 627 00:38:15,156 --> 00:38:19,596 Speaker 1: that a medium as powerful as film would would feel 628 00:38:19,636 --> 00:38:23,196 Speaker 1: free to address the most complex of topics and kind 629 00:38:23,196 --> 00:38:25,276 Speaker 1: of force us to think about them in new ways 630 00:38:25,356 --> 00:38:28,636 Speaker 1: and confront our own complicity and all that kind of thing. 631 00:38:28,676 --> 00:38:31,556 Speaker 1: And you know, I feel that at various times in 632 00:38:31,596 --> 00:38:35,596 Speaker 1: Hollywood's history, film has done that. There's been these moments 633 00:38:35,636 --> 00:38:41,316 Speaker 1: when but like this is a classic example of an 634 00:38:41,316 --> 00:38:44,196 Speaker 1: opportunity to kind of address that, and the fact that 635 00:38:44,236 --> 00:38:45,756 Speaker 1: nobody wants to do that breaks my heart. 636 00:38:46,396 --> 00:38:49,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's possible it could see the light 637 00:38:49,196 --> 00:38:53,876 Speaker 2: of day. You know, again, sometime who knows. It's funny 638 00:38:53,876 --> 00:38:56,476 Speaker 2: because sometimes you can see it. You know what's interesting 639 00:38:56,516 --> 00:38:59,556 Speaker 2: about it the director, actors and producers, you know, the 640 00:38:59,556 --> 00:39:04,996 Speaker 2: people who are sort of intimately involved with it on 641 00:39:05,076 --> 00:39:08,356 Speaker 2: a creative level. But then when you're just talking to 642 00:39:08,436 --> 00:39:12,836 Speaker 2: marketers or publicists or whoever else like that, or you know, 643 00:39:12,956 --> 00:39:16,356 Speaker 2: find financial people, it's just another product. 644 00:39:16,716 --> 00:39:19,236 Speaker 1: Can you one last thing, Isaac? Could you read a 645 00:39:19,276 --> 00:39:24,236 Speaker 1: little bit of where Bubble struggles to come to terms 646 00:39:24,396 --> 00:39:27,436 Speaker 1: with what he is observing at Neverland. 647 00:39:27,996 --> 00:39:33,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, let me find a good one here. Okay, I 648 00:39:33,116 --> 00:39:41,836 Speaker 2: found a good one. Exterior never Land Amusement Park day 649 00:39:42,916 --> 00:39:45,956 Speaker 2: Bubbles glowers as Michael leads a delegation of kids down 650 00:39:45,956 --> 00:39:49,396 Speaker 2: the path towards the amusement park. There's a manic quality 651 00:39:49,396 --> 00:39:50,436 Speaker 2: to Michael's movements. 652 00:39:53,396 --> 00:39:58,156 Speaker 3: He was as some mad pied piper, determined not to 653 00:39:58,276 --> 00:40:01,516 Speaker 3: drive the snakes away, but lead them instead to the 654 00:40:01,596 --> 00:40:03,516 Speaker 3: very heart of his kingdom. 655 00:40:03,996 --> 00:40:06,396 Speaker 2: Michael laughs a little too brightly as he rides atop 656 00:40:06,436 --> 00:40:11,556 Speaker 2: the carousel horse with all those noisy little friends, almost continuous. 657 00:40:11,596 --> 00:40:15,436 Speaker 3: Determined to lower the drawbridge for these pine sized trojan 658 00:40:15,476 --> 00:40:19,356 Speaker 3: horses and let them carry him away in a stampede 659 00:40:19,396 --> 00:40:24,596 Speaker 3: of frivolity. I knew then that no ordeal would change him, 660 00:40:25,436 --> 00:40:30,316 Speaker 3: no brush with ignominy, no humiliation, no torture, no trial, 661 00:40:30,956 --> 00:40:35,716 Speaker 3: no punishment. He had waded so far into a sea 662 00:40:35,796 --> 00:40:39,836 Speaker 3: of infamy that returning was as tedious as continuing to 663 00:40:39,916 --> 00:40:45,556 Speaker 3: the other side. And a troubling notion arose, was what 664 00:40:45,596 --> 00:40:54,316 Speaker 3: I had taken for reckless folly, masking something darker. My 665 00:40:54,476 --> 00:41:07,356 Speaker 3: loyalty had found its limit, and I could serve no longer. 666 00:41:14,756 --> 00:41:18,116 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Nina Bird, Lawrence and Tali Emlin, 667 00:41:18,436 --> 00:41:22,396 Speaker 1: with ben at Afh Haffrey, editing by Sarah Nix, original 668 00:41:22,436 --> 00:41:26,156 Speaker 1: scoring by Luis Garra, Engineering by Ecco Mountain. Our executive 669 00:41:26,156 --> 00:41:30,556 Speaker 1: producer is Jacob Smith, and our special guest voice actor 670 00:41:31,156 --> 00:41:35,676 Speaker 1: was the old Pushkin friend Ethan Herschenfeld. An extra special 671 00:41:35,716 --> 00:41:39,436 Speaker 1: thanks to Franklin Leonard at the Blacklist from bringing Bubbles 672 00:41:39,676 --> 00:41:44,236 Speaker 1: to the attention of the world, I'm Malcolm Glabo.