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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Oh, welcome back.

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Speaker 3: It could happen here a podcast where I just got

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Speaker 3: vaccinated and boy, howdy, the ship this year hits like

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Speaker 3: a fucking train.

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Speaker 4: It does, I I go vaccinated, it's it's it's a

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Speaker 4: rough one this year.

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Speaker 2: Oh man, Yeah, fucking RFK Junior was right.

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Speaker 4: Broadcasting through the vaccine injury today.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. I've received my vaccine injury. I'm complaining

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Speaker 3: to the board. Oh man, I'm gonna nap after this.

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Speaker 3: But first, how about we talk about fucking trendy Aragua,

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Speaker 3: the fucking narco criminal group that President Trump is currently

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Speaker 3: justifying blowing up boats in the middle of international waters

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Speaker 3: as a result.

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Speaker 4: Of Yeah, it's great. It's a good thing that we

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Speaker 4: are now killing civilians in countries where we are not

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Speaker 4: at war with It's great.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: This has been something Stephen Miller had been talking about

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Speaker 3: since the first Trump administration, you know, and had talked

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Speaker 3: with like back when the military was willing to push

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Speaker 3: back against Trump more. People would be like, what you

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Speaker 3: what the fuck are you talking about? We can't launch

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Speaker 3: strikes at just like random boats, and Steve Miller be like,

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Speaker 3: why not?

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Speaker 2: And now they're doing it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And this group, this criminal cartel out of Venezuela

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Speaker 3: has been the current justification. As we'll talk about, most

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Speaker 3: of what is said about this trendy Aragua by the

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Speaker 3: administration about you know, their role in smuggling drugs in

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Speaker 3: the United States is either just completely invented or massively exaggerated.

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Speaker 3: It is a really interesting group. They have a fascinating

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Speaker 3: like history. The literal meaning is train of Arugua. Sorry,

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Speaker 3: And it started out with like labor unions that were

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Speaker 3: working on a railway project. It was going to be

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Speaker 3: connecting central and western Venezuela together. And as has happened

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Speaker 3: in history, what started as like labor union organizing wound

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Speaker 3: up kind of morphing into a direct criminal activity.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: The guy who's generally credited as the founder, although that's

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Speaker 3: kind of flattening things a little bit, is Hector Guerrero Flores,

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Speaker 3: known as Nino Guerrero, and he he got put in

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Speaker 3: for seventeen years for murder and drug trafficking at this

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Speaker 3: prison called tokron Am I I am saying that, right, James, How.

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Speaker 4: Do we see to Coron Yeah, Sarenaxin. Yeah, there's a

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Speaker 4: little accent over the second. Oh, as you go up

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Speaker 4: with down up to Coron. Thank you, James.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And so this one of the things that's fun about

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Speaker 3: this is that this prison where they start loading these

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Speaker 3: guys up, becomes so heavily organized, and it eventually turns

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Speaker 3: from being like a prison in the traditional sense to

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Speaker 3: more being like a tiny independent city that the gang

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Speaker 3: is based out of.

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Speaker 2: It acted as their fortress.

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Speaker 3: They established like nightclubs in it, and you know, luxury facilities,

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Speaker 3: and like leaders of the gang more or less came

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Speaker 3: and went as they pleased, went back to their families,

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Speaker 3: and it was not really what you'd think of as

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Speaker 3: a prison in the traditional sense for a lot of

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Speaker 3: these guys. For a while, a payment system was created

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Speaker 3: in order to like basically you would inmates would pay

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Speaker 3: for protection or for access to the nicer aspects of

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Speaker 3: the prison called the cause. And if you didn't pay,

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Speaker 3: you know, they had various ways of physically abusing you.

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Speaker 3: There's a good article in Small Wars Journal that talks

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Speaker 3: about the origins and the impact of this group, and

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Speaker 3: it quotes someone from inside the prison is saying, the

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Speaker 3: first time you don't pay, they shoot your wrist, the

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Speaker 3: second time your ankle, the third time, and you face

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Speaker 3: the death penalty. So, like you're talking like pretty traditional

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Speaker 3: criminal gang stuff, right, Yeah. So the journey of this

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Speaker 3: group from gang that's major in Venezuela to gang that's

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Speaker 3: kind of operating in larger and larger chunks of South

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Speaker 3: America followed a pretty natural path where they got involved

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Speaker 3: in more kinds of smuggling and more kinds of trafficking

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Speaker 3: over the years, started setting up operations in other parts

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Speaker 3: of South America Eca. But one of the things that

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Speaker 3: the gang has sort of done is you've got this

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Speaker 3: kind of process by which they have these local affiliates

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Speaker 3: who are not directly associated with the gang in like

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Speaker 3: the strict hierarchical sense, and that it's not literally the

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Speaker 3: gang sending an official into another state. It's more like

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Speaker 3: franchising is kind of the way things work, and you

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Speaker 3: have different local groups, some of whom are not even

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Speaker 3: connected in any way to the original organization, claiming a

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Speaker 3: line of descent in order to basically draft off of

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Speaker 3: that clout, you know, yeah, yeah, which is kind of

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Speaker 3: what you've seen increasingly, and this has led to a

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Speaker 3: situation where there's enough claims of trend being involved in

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Speaker 3: the United States and other countries that it looks a

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Speaker 3: lot like a larger and more centralized criminal organization than

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Speaker 3: it actually is in reality.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the state understands these things like many states, right,

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Speaker 4: like who like with a leader and a distinct authority

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Speaker 4: structure and like a direct command. That is not how

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Speaker 4: my understanding is that they operate, right because they are

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Speaker 4: not mini states there. They are a different entity to that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And what is your Because you've actually spent time

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Speaker 3: reporting and in Venezuela, when did you first become aware

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Speaker 3: of trend?

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Speaker 4: I mean I became aware of like the fact that

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Speaker 4: there were armed gangs and criminals. I mean I was

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Speaker 4: robbed at gunpoint when I was in Venezuela, right, so

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Speaker 4: that may be aware that that there were people who

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Speaker 4: who did crime with weapons, But I wasn't aware really

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Speaker 4: of trend that I went until like maybe the twenty twenty.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I don't report on organized crime, nor do

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Speaker 4: I particularly follow it, right, But I take an interest

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Speaker 4: in Venezuelan affairs and as much as I've spent time there,

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Speaker 4: and I have like an affinity with the people, and

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Speaker 4: I understand that things are getting going from bad to

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Speaker 4: worse for them. Under their government. So so I took

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Speaker 4: an interest. I guess it was like, are you familiar

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Speaker 4: with a Naco Sobrinos affair? No, okay, Naco Sobrinos is

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Speaker 4: like narco nephews. I think they're actually step nephews of

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Speaker 4: Maduro if I recall correctly. It doesn't hugely matter. They're

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Speaker 4: like part of his family in a mediate and I

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Speaker 4: believe they lived in his compound. And they used like,

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Speaker 4: I don't want to make statements that are incorrect that

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Speaker 4: I believe they use a presidential hangar or runway to

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Speaker 4: fly a plane to Haiti, which the USDA alleges, and

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Speaker 4: it is most likely true that that that that plane

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Speaker 4: was stuffed full of cocaine.

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Speaker 2: Sure, many such cases, Yeah, many such cases.

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Speaker 4: They believe they have diplomatic immunity, which they did not,

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Speaker 4: which I believe came as surprise to them at the

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Speaker 4: moment of their detention. And so at that point I

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Speaker 4: was like, shit, we can get onto this. How the

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Speaker 4: Trump administration has like basically alled to Venezuela as a

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Speaker 4: narco dictatorship. Certainly there is overlap between organized crime and

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Speaker 4: the state, right, it's because the state is so poor

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Speaker 4: and so corrupt. That inevitably you will see like overlap

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Speaker 4: between organized crime and the state.

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Speaker 2: So I guess right.

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Speaker 4: Whenever the knack of Sobrino's affair was I was like, okay,

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Speaker 4: I need any to sort of be aware of this.

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Speaker 4: And of course in my like coverage of immigration, you

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Speaker 4: hear of people mostly their talk is just not that

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Speaker 4: their life has been made hard by organized crime, if

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Speaker 4: I managed so much as their life has been made

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Speaker 4: hard by the government completely failing to provide services and

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Speaker 4: the complete collapse of the Venezuelan economy. You know, I'm

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Speaker 4: not going to ask about it explicitly, but if someone

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Speaker 4: mentions it, I sort of take note of it as

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Speaker 4: one of the reasons why people are leaving.

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Speaker 3: Would you bring up as a really good point, which

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Speaker 3: is that twenty fourteen is kind of when the most

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Speaker 3: recent Venezuelan economic crisis really kicked off. And two is

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Speaker 3: fourteen to twenty eighteen was a major period of growth

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Speaker 3: for trend and then twenty eighteen to twenty twenty two

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Speaker 3: is when they really started pushing up into and involving

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Speaker 3: themselves increasingly in Colombia and the United States as a

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Speaker 3: result of like the increased flow of Venezuelans out of

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Speaker 3: Venezuela and into other countries and eventually up to the

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Speaker 3: US and to some extent, And it's been since twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty two that the gang has really been pruned back,

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Speaker 3: you know, both as a result of the Venezuelan government

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Speaker 3: taking control of the prison again and like basically invading

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Speaker 3: it with the military in order to deny them access

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Speaker 3: to what had been like their primary centralized, like hub

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Speaker 3: of control, and also due to the fact that, like

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Speaker 3: after expansion into Columbia and Chile, both criminal organizations and

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Speaker 3: the governments of those countries increasingly pushed back against the organization, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: one of the reasons why they're being targeted. But also

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Speaker 3: one of the things that's like fundamentally bullshit about the

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Speaker 3: administration's description of what's happening is that we're very much

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Speaker 3: talking about a cartel that's on its back feet and

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Speaker 3: been on its back feet for the last several years

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Speaker 3: as the result of significant reversals in their business and

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Speaker 3: in their political situation.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, Columbia has been the Columbian Civil War

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Speaker 4: is one of the longest running conflicts in the world.

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Speaker 4: But things have changed their substantially, right, in the last

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Speaker 4: five or seven years. You know, you have people from

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Speaker 4: the FOC disarming. You have the fracture of what was

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Speaker 4: previously their territory in some of who were previously their

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Speaker 4: militants into other groups, right, And so that has allowed

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Speaker 4: the state there to continue its conflict against what remains

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Speaker 4: of that and also to clamp down other groups. Right.

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Speaker 4: And evidently, like the flow of drugs, United States relies

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Speaker 4: on the complicity or inability to stop it of many states.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, we've seen like a concerted effort and also

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Speaker 4: like the attempts of the United States to stop smuggling.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 4: So, I guess if people aren't familiar, we should just

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Speaker 4: explain the US DHS, of which the United States Coast

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Speaker 4: Guard is part. I think a lot of people aren't

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Speaker 4: aware the Coast Guard is part of DHS claims a

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Speaker 4: universal jurisdiction or jurisdiction at least in areas where drugs

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Speaker 4: are being smuggled to the United States, Right, So the

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Speaker 4: US Coast Guard had a role to play in this

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Speaker 4: in the I guess interdiction is the word they would

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Speaker 4: use of drugs coming to the United States. I probably

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Speaker 4: haven't got data on this. In the last year or so.

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Speaker 4: But it certainly was the case that most drugs entering

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Speaker 4: the US entered through ports of entry as opposed to

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Speaker 4: like between ports of entry, right, like through the desert,

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Speaker 4: through the mountains, and so like these these boats, I

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Speaker 4: guess are not just to be clear that they're not

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Speaker 4: necessarily going to the United States, and most states are

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Speaker 4: not going to United States, and most states are going

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Speaker 4: to Mexico and then moving to the United States through

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Speaker 4: other methods. But like as the governments both south of

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Speaker 4: the United States and in the United States who adapted,

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Speaker 4: it's become harder and harder for those people, right, And

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Speaker 4: so it's become harder and harder for these criminal organizations

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Speaker 4: to make money off these drugs.

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Speaker 3: And that's led to, I mean a situation that one

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Speaker 3: of the things that they've been accused of being by

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Speaker 3: the Trump administration and internationally is essentially an agent of

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Speaker 3: the Maduro regime, right, And this is something that certainly

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Speaker 3: the Venezuelan government denies. This is not a thing where

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Speaker 3: I can you know, entirely give you this is exactly

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Speaker 3: what's happened. But it seems accurate to say that as

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Speaker 3: an organization, as their their actual like control and power

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Speaker 3: have been eroded, they have been utilized increasingly as a

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Speaker 3: way to, for example, deal with like dissidents who are

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Speaker 3: hostile to the Madeiro regime right as a as a

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Speaker 3: deniable asset. In particular, there's been cases that are reasonably

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Speaker 3: well documented of dissidents against the Venezuelan regime in Chile

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Speaker 3: and Trendy Aragua being used as like assassins to to

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Speaker 3: take out dissonance in foreign countries in a deniable manner. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And I mean it looks to me like this has

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Speaker 3: kind of increased as their actual ability to directly control

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Speaker 3: things and directly contest the regime as a power center

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Speaker 3: has been eroded.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's kind of a classic like I wouldn't say

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Speaker 4: that like ideologically aligned, right, but sometimes their interests aligned, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: to be clearly, Like trend are one of the sort

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Speaker 4: of organized crime institutions in Venezuela, but by.

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Speaker 2: Five only one, right, you have, yeah, Trendel. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: For example, you have these other groups who have also

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Speaker 4: been active in anti government protests, especially since the I'm

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Speaker 4: going to use that quote unquote election here in July

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Speaker 4: of last year, right, where electoral fraud is widely alleged

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Speaker 4: and I documented that in My Daddy and series if

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Speaker 4: people want to listen to that. But it's not like

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Speaker 4: these two are lot in lockstep. But yeah, like we

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Speaker 4: can understand that sometimes that the interest might align and

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Speaker 4: in those areas may be beneficial for the regime to,

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Speaker 4: like you say, to use them as a deniable asset.

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Speaker 2: Right, which does not.

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Speaker 3: Like one of the things that's kind of most frustrating

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Speaker 3: is hearing them described as central to the smuggling of

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Speaker 3: fentanyl into the United States, which, like, even in kind

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Speaker 3: of the most elaborate version of this group being utilized

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Speaker 3: by the Venezuelan government is fanciful, right, Like, because Venezuela

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Speaker 3: just doesn't have that much to do with the smuggling

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Speaker 3: of fentidel into the United States. Yeah, Like, Venezuela and

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Speaker 3: Venezuelan criminal organizations just aren't that involved in that process.

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Speaker 3: That's not where it's coming from, right. Yeah, And we'll

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Speaker 3: talk some more about fentanyl, but first, you know what's

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Speaker 3: kind of like fentanyl advertising. We're back and we're talking

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Speaker 3: about fentanyl. Well, we're talking about like these claims because

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Speaker 3: that's the justification for why we need to airstrike these boats.

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Speaker 3: The most recent of which we know was boarded by

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Speaker 3: another government and had drugs on board. It removed before

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Speaker 3: it was struck.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and we simply have no idea, no way to verify.

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Speaker 3: I have no way to verify what the administration is

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Speaker 3: claiming about these boats.

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Speaker 2: We're just seeing boats get blown up.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, and everybody who's on that boat is no dead,

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Speaker 4: so there's not many many people to contradict that story.

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Speaker 4: Should we explain like the usual coast Guard process.

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Speaker 2: For in addiction? Yeah, I think that's probably good idea.

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Speaker 4: So generally, right, what the US Coast Guide is going

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Speaker 4: to do is they will have these large vessels from

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Speaker 4: which they will launch smaller vessels and helicopters to intercept craft, right,

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Speaker 4: like the most kind of I guess like famous charismatic

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Speaker 4: other like Colombian like they call them Narco subs.

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Speaker 2: There's their semi submarines.

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Speaker 4: Actually that they're not like fully submersed, but they that

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Speaker 4: much of the vessel is submerged. What the Coast Guard

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Speaker 4: would normally do, to my understanding, is to send a

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Speaker 4: vessel to intercept them, right, be it a helicopter or

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Speaker 4: a boat, or probably both in most cases I would

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Speaker 4: imagine tell them to stop.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 4: If they don't stop, the Coastguard will have like a

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Speaker 4: sniper who will shoot out the engine of the craft.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: They will then board, they will entertain the people. They

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Speaker 4: will obviously confiscate any drugs that they find, and then

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Speaker 4: they will take those people back to their vessel where

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Speaker 4: they're detained, and then they'll be tried in the US. Right,

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Speaker 4: and then they would normally it's they can't kind of

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Speaker 4: scoop up all these ships that they've intercepted or semi

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Speaker 4: subs or whatever, so they will normally destroy those and

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Speaker 4: scuttle them so they sink to the bottom of the ocean.

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Speaker 4: I don't know how many cases they've done this in,

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Speaker 4: but that would be the normal procedure for Coast Guard.

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Speaker 4: It gets pre twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 3: It's got to be fun being a fish near one

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Speaker 3: of those vessels, yeah, fishing.

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Speaker 4: Getting yeah yeah, yeah. I don't know what they do

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Speaker 4: with all the cac And sometimes they bring all the

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Speaker 4: cocaine back for a photo op. You see that sometimes

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Speaker 4: yeah yeah, yeah, that looks good. Yeah yeah, it's nicely packaged,

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Speaker 4: says cocaine or fentanyl on the side or whatever. That

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Speaker 4: is my understanding of what was done previously. The strikes

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Speaker 4: in the last month have been extremely different, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: and we're looking at I think fourteen people killed so

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Speaker 4: far that we've had confirmed, although those numbers are certainly

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Speaker 4: higher than the when you're hearing them, right, because we've

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Speaker 4: just had another strike in the last day or so

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Speaker 4: that I don't think we have exact numbers on how

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Speaker 4: many people were involved.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: They use, from what I understand, drones from Special Operations

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Speaker 4: Command to do these strikes, right, which in itself is

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Speaker 4: quite unusual. And then the strikes themselves consisted of did

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Speaker 4: they say what I guess it looks like a hell

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Speaker 4: fire missile, but I don't know if they've said.

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Speaker 2: That looked like health fires to me on the videos

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Speaker 2: I've seen.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not exactly like high DEPF video, but you

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Speaker 4: see them striking like it looks kind of like a

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Speaker 4: like a it's a speedboat, right, like it's a surface vessel.

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Speaker 4: It's not a not a semi sub or a submarine.

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Speaker 4: It's unclear like what has happened before, at least I

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Speaker 4: haven't seen any reporting or what happened before, like whether

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Speaker 4: they got in order to stop I think in one

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Speaker 4: case they had turned around right having noticed a drone

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Speaker 4: and begun returning towards the coast, towards Venezuela, I guess,

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Speaker 4: And they were still struck. And it appears that in

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Speaker 4: at least one case, the drone struck them again, like

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Speaker 4: it hit them once and then returned for a second

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Speaker 4: run to hit I guess the survivors.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And you know, there's a couple of facts that go

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Speaker 3: alongside what we actually know and versus what the administration's claiming.

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Speaker 3: About eighty percent of people involved in the smuggling of

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Speaker 3: illegal drugs into the United States are US citizens, and

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Speaker 3: then of the remaining twenty ish percent, a chunk of

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Speaker 3: those are resident legal aliens, and the chunk are a

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Speaker 3: mix of undocumented people, non citizens, or people whose status

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Speaker 3: is unknown or extra diited aliens. Right like, this is

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Speaker 3: based on the United States Sentencing Commissions data from twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty four, and about eighty five percent of drugs that

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Speaker 3: are brought into the United States are smuggled in at

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Speaker 3: ports of entry. And this makes complete sense if you

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Speaker 3: think about it, in part because it's pretty easy to

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Speaker 3: track when you've just got like a boat trying to

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Speaker 3: smuggle stuff into the country illicitly and the people who

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Speaker 3: are on that boat. If the art citizens have no

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Speaker 3: right to enter the country inherently, as opposed to citizens

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Speaker 3: who do have a right to enter, and ports of

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Speaker 3: entry where there's a shitload of you want to heighten

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Speaker 3: plane sight with this stuff? Right, Like it just makes sense,

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Speaker 3: Like would you rather if you were smuggling a huge

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Speaker 3: amount of illegal shit? Would you rather be on your

356
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Speaker 3: own with a van or a vehicle full of very

357
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Speaker 3: illegal drugs or would you rather be like hiding amongst

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Speaker 3: the billions of tons of shit that gets taken to

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Speaker 3: this country every single year, right, Yeah, which is why

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Speaker 3: just the reality of the data is so completely different

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Speaker 3: than the administration makes it out to be. And obviously,

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Speaker 3: foreign criminal organizations are heavily involved in the smuggling of

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Speaker 3: illegal drugs, particularly fentanyl in the United States, but we're

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Speaker 3: talking primarily about like the Sinaloa cartel and then different

365
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Speaker 3: criminal organizations involved in the smuggling a fentnyel out of China, right,

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Speaker 3: which is where a lot of fentanyl comes from.

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Speaker 2: As opposed to.

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Speaker 3: Again, Venezuela, the government here is going for low hanging fruit.

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Speaker 3: I think as The conclusion I'm driven to just every

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Speaker 3: time I read about this is that, like, there doesn't

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Speaker 3: seem to be a better reason for focusing on this organization,

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Speaker 3: which really is just not that involved in crime in

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Speaker 3: the United States nearly to the that groups like the

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Speaker 3: scene lower Cartel are.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it offers a chance to demonize Venezuelan people, right,

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Speaker 4: and Venezuelan people made up a large number of the

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Speaker 4: people who came to the United States to seek asylum

378
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Speaker 4: under Biden, because like, if we do believe that these

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Speaker 4: like the word in Spanish would be like a megabandas

380
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Speaker 4: like mega gangs are a serious threat to the well

381
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Speaker 4: being of people in the United States, imagine how much

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Speaker 4: more of a threat they are to the well being

383
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Speaker 4: a people in Venezuela, right, Right, And that combined with

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Speaker 4: a government which objectively sucks and which also uses extra

385
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Speaker 4: judicial violence, right, including in its battle against these gangs,

386
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Speaker 4: leads people to want to leave and when they come here,

387
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Speaker 4: the United States, especially the Trump Recheme, has been engaged

388
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Speaker 4: in this demonization of migrants. Right, this offers a very

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Speaker 4: convenient narrative for that to say that these people are

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Speaker 4: bringing crime here. The vast majority of them are doing

391
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Speaker 4: the exact opposite. They are coming here because the state

392
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Speaker 4: in Venezuela has extorted them, and slash or non state

393
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Speaker 4: actors in Venezuela have extorted them. The vast bulk of

394
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Speaker 4: the complaints I hear from Megan for Venezuela about the state,

395
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Speaker 4: they have no interest other than working hard and receiving

396
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Speaker 4: like a decent living wage for that. Yeah, every Venezuelan

397
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Speaker 4: person I spoke to almost burned on when I ask

398
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Speaker 4: what their American dream is, tell you that their American

399
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Speaker 4: dream is to have a job that pays them enough

400
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Speaker 4: to feed their family. Right, Like, we have next to

401
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,600
Speaker 4: no evidence of organized crime coming into the United States

402
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:40,800
Speaker 4: through the asyluentists, and there are sure there will be,

403
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,600
Speaker 4: like I would imagine a fraction of a single percent

404
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,879
Speaker 4: of cases, sure in which that is the case. But

405
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,119
Speaker 4: it's being used against all these Venezuelan people right as

406
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Speaker 4: we've seen. And I guess I a should just clarify that,

407
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:58,080
Speaker 4: like one thing about these megabandas that they're not like maras, right,

408
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Speaker 4: like so like MS thirteen being a mara, right, like

409
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Speaker 4: a gang in which members are identified by certain tattoos.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, Yes, this is tattoos and emojis, yes.

411
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, again, Like I understand that that is a

412
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Speaker 4: thing that happens in some cases, but that is not

413
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Speaker 4: a thing that is common to these gangs.

414
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Speaker 3: No, it's it's certainly not common to trendy Araguas. Right,

415
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,720
Speaker 3: It's like the use of tattoos. There's not even widespread

416
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,200
Speaker 3: agreement among experts as to whether or not there's any

417
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Speaker 3: sort of centralized, US based hierarchy for the group, right right, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 4: The tattooing is just as it is in the United

419
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Speaker 4: States and that sort of places around the world. A

420
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Speaker 4: very common practice in Venezuela that the people do for

421
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Speaker 4: as many reasons as there are people right to include

422
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,480
Speaker 4: because they love their mum, because they love their kids,

423
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Speaker 4: because they're like a football team, because they are religious,

424
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Speaker 4: et cetera, et cetera. That is why people get tattoos.

425
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Speaker 4: It is not to indicate membership in any organization.

426
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Speaker 3: No, And this is this is something that's verified. Again,

427
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Speaker 3: Like one of the leading experts on trend is Jana Risquez,

428
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 3: who wrote a book The trendy Aragua, The Gang that

429
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,639
Speaker 3: revolutionized organized crime in Latin America. She specifically told in

430
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Speaker 3: otisis Telemundo during an interview. Venezuelan gangs are not identified

431
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Speaker 3: by tattoos. To be a member of one of these

432
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Speaker 3: Venezuelan organizations, you don't need a tattoo. You can have

433
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Speaker 3: no tattoos and still be part of it. You can

434
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Speaker 3: also have a tattoo that matches other members of the organization.

435
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 3: So like again, there's groups and different sort of because

436
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,920
Speaker 3: this is a very bottom up sort of organization, which

437
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 3: is often the case with criminal groups, where like they

438
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 3: will you know, there will be money being passed in

439
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 3: one direction or another, but there's not tight control being

440
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 3: exercised in a top down manner. You can find groups

441
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 3: that have tattoos in common, but it's not a centralized

442
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:45,920
Speaker 3: thing that the organization does.

443
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, and like the Venezuelan state, to be clear, is

444
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 4: extremely violent. They have like a special armed police which

445
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 4: deals with gangs and organized crime that kills hundreds of people.

446
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 4: It would be unwise to be going about in the

447
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:01,199
Speaker 4: street with it like I am a member of a

448
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,640
Speaker 4: certain gang. Right, tattoo right, And so unless you plan

449
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 4: to live in some area where where you feel completely

450
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 4: safe from the state, that would be a very unwise thing.

451
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:09,679
Speaker 1: To do.

452
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we'll talk some more about things that are unwise,

453
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 3: but first it would be wise for you to buy

454
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 3: these products. We're back, and I want to quote from

455
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 3: a recent piece in The Guardian on the US law

456
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:36,120
Speaker 3: enforcement claiming that emoji's signal membership in this organization. Man

457
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 3: This is by Sam Levin and man Vy Singh from September,

458
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 3: a couple of days ago. The first reference to emojis

459
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 3: in the records comes from a July twenty twenty four

460
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 3: situational awareness alert from the n WHITPD, which was distributed

461
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 3: to law enforcement across the country and warned of trendy

462
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 3: Araguaf threats in New York City. In WYPD Intelligence Encounter

463
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 3: Terrorism Bureau has observed members of TDA in New York

464
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 3: City using social media messaging platforms such as Instagram and

465
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 3: Talk to depict the legiance to the gang. The other

466
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 3: said TDA members often utilize emojis such as trains, Ninja's,

467
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,920
Speaker 3: slot machines, double swords, shields, ogre, face mask and crowns.

468
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 3: Members also use South American slang and Arabic language terms

469
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 3: to mask their identities on social media. They've cited the

470
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 3: NYPD tattoos featuring Michael Jordan, fucking ninja emojis. You're tolding

471
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 3: me that that's that's a TDA sybol. That's not just

472
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 3: something people use.

473
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 4: Like, yeah, man, this is like, I mean, there's a

474
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,159
Speaker 4: large Arab or population of Arab descent in Venezuela.

475
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:30,680
Speaker 2: That's where these slangs come from.

476
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 4: Like, people use emojis, particularly in this context because their

477
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 4: education has not been the best, right, Like, the access

478
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 4: to to literacy is less than it would be in

479
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 4: other contexts. So like sometimes they use emoji, so they

480
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 4: just use them because it's funny. But like the notion

481
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 4: of like and yeah, people will use slang. People will

482
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 4: spell shit the way they say it. Sometimes when I'm

483
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,680
Speaker 4: talking to Venezuelan people, you know, if I'm if I'm

484
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,439
Speaker 4: talking to a source and they I sometimes I have

485
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 4: to read it aloud to help me understand what they're saying.

486
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 4: That it's very common to people in Venezuela. There's nothing

487
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 4: to do with being a member of a gang whatsoever.

488
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean there's a lot of that in

489
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 3: terms of like the fact that the Chicago Bulls and

490
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:18,120
Speaker 3: Michael Jordan are popular among immigrants, right, Like that that's

491
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 3: particularly Venezuelan immigrants, and a lot of it comes from like, well,

492
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 3: a lot of Venezuelan immigrants tend to like these things

493
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 3: in media, tend to like these musicians and get tattoos

494
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 3: that reference these things in popular culture or these things

495
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 3: you know that different Venezuelan artists have put out. And

496
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 3: that's I mean, it's certainly not a sign that like, oh,

497
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 3: these things signal membership and this criminal organization and more

498
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 3: they're just targeting Venezuelans and these things are more common

499
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 3: among Venezuelans, but not certainly not exclusive to that group.

500
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 3: When you when you're saying that like a Michael Jordan's

501
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 3: shirt or tattoo is a symbol of membership in a criminal,

502
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 3: criminal organization, well, I guess like a third of my

503
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 3: high school were criminals. I mean they were, but not

504
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 3: in this way.

505
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, ye, Like these are very common, like the Jordan logo,

506
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 4: I don't know what it's called, the jumping Jordan logo.

507
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 4: Not a big sports where fan myself, but like, yeah,

508
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,199
Speaker 4: it's very common. It's because people buy fake designer apparel

509
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 4: all the time. Like you will also see people tons

510
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 4: of people with Louis Viton items. They're not real. That

511
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 4: does not indicate membership in any gang. It's just kind

512
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 4: of an aspirational thing that you can buy any almost

513
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,199
Speaker 4: anywhere in Venezuela because no one's going down there to

514
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 4: enforce copyright laws. Like it's not it doesn't indicate any affiliation.

515
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 4: Sometimes it indicates like an interest with the United States, right,

516
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 4: like like that these are where these things come from,

517
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 4: and this is a place where these people would like

518
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 4: to go. I also saw a guy cross a Darien

519
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 4: glap in Nike Alpha flys, like the super Fast Marathon

520
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 4: running shoes with the giant carbon plated spring. Like this

521
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 4: is not like indication of anything other than that, like

522
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 4: this person thought those were cool and they purchased them. Yeah,

523
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,360
Speaker 4: are you familiar with this Cartel de lo Solis thing?

524
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 2: No?

525
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 4: Okay, so like the Cartel del Solis, the Cartel of

526
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 4: the Sun of the Sun's I guess it's another organization

527
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 4: which the US is alleging that Maduro is is like

528
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 4: head of right that, like it's a vertically organized organization

529
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 4: and that like Maduro is literally the chief of it,

530
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 4: And I guess I just want to say, like the

531
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 4: same shit applies, right there are gangs all over Karrakas,

532
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 4: as well as names we haven't mentioned. What you've got

533
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 4: here is state failure, right Like in Venezuela, the state

534
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 4: has failed to provide people with services and it does

535
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 4: not always enjoy a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence.

536
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 4: You also have massive corruption, So it is absolutely the

537
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 4: case that people smuggling drugs through Venezuela will be able

538
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 4: to buy off certain officials, right, particularly like military commanders

539
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 4: and people who have control over transit and border areas.

540
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 4: It doesn't imply like a vertical structure per se. To

541
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 4: be clear, like I don't think my Dado should be

542
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 4: in charge of Venezuela. I think that my duadal regime

543
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 4: is bad for Venezuela and bad for the world. But

544
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,479
Speaker 4: like it's very oversimplified to see it like straight up

545
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 4: as like a narco regime, right that, Like, there is

546
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 4: more to it than that. This is the country that

547
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 4: hits on masses of oil. This is a country that

548
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 4: has been incredibly corrupt from an incredibly long time now,

549
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 4: and you're always going to see these organizations creeping into

550
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 4: the government. Right when the government can't even pay its

551
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 4: own people will guarantee them a decent and dignified quality

552
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 4: of life like. That doesn't mean that it is okay

553
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 4: to just kill like First and foremost, I would imagine

554
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 4: that if we go with the government story that the

555
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 4: boats that they struck were carrying drugs, right, it is

556
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 4: unlikely that people who are carrying those drugs or anything

557
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 4: other than poor desperate young men who wanted a chance

558
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 4: at a better life and or were intimidated into doing this, right,

559
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 4: And maybe some of them chose to do this because

560
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 4: they thought this was the way they could get money

561
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 4: and the progress in a place that does not for

562
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 4: them many opportunities. These are not the people who are

563
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 4: in any way like making the calls, making the decisions, right,

564
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 4: and so killing them isn't going to do very much

565
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 4: because there is a massive supply of poor desperate young

566
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 4: men in Venezuela, and it's not going to change anything

567
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 4: to kill fourteen fifteen of them, other than it will

568
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 4: obviously it's a tragedy for those families, right, there's people

569
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 4: who lose their children or whatever. Yeah, and so like,

570
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 4: I don't know until we solve the situation that life

571
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 4: is untenable for people in Venezuela, Yes, there will be

572
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 4: crime there, and yes, people from there will want to

573
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 4: come to the United States.

574
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 2: Both of those things make sense.

575
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 4: That does not mean that people coming to the United

576
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 4: States are coming to the United States to do bad things.

577
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 4: The vast majority of them are coming to the United

578
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 4: States to escape bad things. We've had so much discourse

579
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 4: about Venezuelan people and crime, even in the you know,

580
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 4: this has begun, I think in Chicago in the Biden administration,

581
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 4: I have not seen journalists of whatever political stripe talk

582
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 4: to Venezuelan people about this. Right, Like, with very few exceptions,

583
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:30,719
Speaker 4: it's very easy to find Venezuelan people, especially you know,

584
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 4: if you if you work at the border and you

585
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 4: do border reporting. But even still, you know, lots of

586
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 4: these Venezuelan people went to Denver, some of them went

587
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 4: to Chicago, some of them went to the Springs in Colorado,

588
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:42,719
Speaker 4: many of them went to Texas. They went to all

589
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 4: kinds of places when they came to the United States. Right,

590
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 4: if you speak Spanish, it's not hard to find these

591
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 4: people and ask them what's it like in Venezuela, why

592
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 4: did you come here? And then perhaps you can you know,

593
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 4: establish a picture of yeah, it's pretty shit, right, people

594
00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 4: work hard every day and don't make enough to feed

595
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 4: their family, if their kid is sick, if their elderly

596
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 4: parents can't work and need support, it's really hard to

597
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 4: do that. That is why they want to come to

598
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 4: the US. That is why often young men want to

599
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 4: come to the US right because the world as it

600
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 4: is gives them the highest level of economic opportunity, and

601
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 4: so the family will send them to the US such

602
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 4: as they can earn enough money and they hope one

603
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 4: day to bring their families here. Sometimes you also see

604
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 4: people bringing their very young children because they realize there's

605
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 4: no future for their children in Venezuela, so they make

606
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 4: the choice to try and come to somewhere which once

607
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 4: promised a future for hard working people and doesn't really anymore.

608
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 4: But like it just it pains me so much to

609
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 4: see this discussion of Venezuela without Venezuelan people, most of

610
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 4: whom I found to be wonderful, Like I spent a

611
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 4: good amount of time in Venezuela and even longer with

612
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 4: Venezuelan people, and they have a great affection for them,

613
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 4: like they've been nothing but kind to me, even now,

614
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 4: like a year after it's in the Darien Gap. I

615
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 4: get text all the time from Venezuelan people, the majority

616
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 4: of them not asking for help, just asking how I

617
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 4: am asking? Do I know what happened to the Bolivian girl?

618
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 4: Do I know what happened to the Zimbabwean women? Like

619
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 4: genuinely concerned, even amidst like a really shit situation for them,

620
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 4: concerned for the well being of other people. And I

621
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 4: just wish instead of talking about yeah, there are hundreds,

622
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 4: maybe thousands of Venezuelan people who are involved in moving

623
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 4: drugs to United States, we could talk about the millions

624
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 4: of people who just want to work hard and have

625
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 4: a decent life and who are being denied a chance

626
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 4: to do that at home, and are now being denied

627
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 4: a chance to do that here as well.

628
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

629
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 3: Well, I think that's about it for our episode today.

630
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 2: Until next time, folks, I don't know rest of luck

631
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 2: out there? Yeah it could happen.

632
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more

633
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: podcasts from fool Zone Media, visit our website goolezonmedia dot com,

634
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

635
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find

636
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: sources for it could happen here, listed directly in episode descriptions.

637
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening,