WEBVTT - Where is my mind? 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:05.880 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:15.560 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:18.319 My name is Robert lamp and I'm Joe McCormick. And 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:21.560 today we're going to be having a conversation about consciousness, 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:25.640 probably one of the thorniest, most controversial, and most difficult 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:29.080 subjects in all of scientific investigation. But we want to 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:32.559 start in a in a thoroughly unscientific way by just 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:36.160 trying to manipulate your experience a little bit. We'll see 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:38.680 if we can get any traction or you game Robert 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:41.720 It okay, So if you are able, if you're not 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:44.920 operating a vehicle or juggling hatchets or something like that 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:48.560 at the moment, please try this weird little meditation exercise 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:52.400 with us. I want you to focus on an object 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:55.480 in front of you. Can be any object. It should 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:58.760 be something that stays in place that you can continually 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:02.400 return your gaze. You. Yeah, so look at look at 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:05.560 a detail on the wall. Don't look at your own reflection. 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:09.560 Maybe don't look outside the window and passing cars. Your 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:12.959 own reflection is just too interesting, right, and it's gonna 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:17.160 move and then you're gonna fall over it's just too beautiful. No, okay, 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:19.479 so yeah, pick an object, focus on it, look at 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:22.600 it and think for a little bit. Just contemplate the 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:25.480 physical processes involved in sight. You don't have to know 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:29.440 all the science. Just think about the light passing from 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:34.200 that object to your eyes, reflecting off that object coming 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:38.480 into your eyes, being filtered through the lenses of your eyes, 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:42.640 coming onto the retina, this layer of light sensitive cells 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:47.360 being turned into information electrical impulses that are transported into 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:51.480 the brain via europtic nerve. And look at your object 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:54.440 and think about the light passing through all the stages 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:57.600 it goes through to get to your mind to form 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:00.800 the image that you're seeing right now, not just the 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:05.800 object itself, but your perception of it. Here's the question, 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:11.120 where does it feel like this process ends physically? Where 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:15.440 does it feel like this process ends scientifically? You might 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:18.520 know something about the visual processing center of your brain, 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:21.799 but don't worry about that. Where does it just subjectively 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:25.000 feel like the image is going or where does it 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:29.360 feel like you are seeing it? Where's the part of 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:32.480 your mind that recognizes what you're looking at, or even 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:36.320 just the part of your your body To go beyond that, Sure, now, 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:40.320 for me, i'd say default, if I'm not trying anything weird, 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:44.320 I guess it feels sort of like it's located somewhere 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:47.240 near the front of my skull, sort of hovering behind 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:51.640 my face. But I often wonder if it only feels 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:54.200 that way because I've sort of been taught to think 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:57.920 of my brain and specifically my prefrontal cortex as the 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:01.640 seat of higher thought. And if you feel something similar 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:04.440 or really no matter where you feel like this seeing 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:09.600 is taking place, try a weird experiment see if you 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:15.160 can move it. I sometimes find that if I relax 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:19.080 and focus my attention, I can, Though this sounds weird, 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:24.320 subjectively move the center of seeing back in my head 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:28.120 where I tricked my mind into feeling like I'm really 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:32.600 seeing it somewhere further back in my skull, pushing that 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:37.920 perceptive mind space further and further back, maybe just going 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:41.160 outside the skull. Can you imagine feeling that like you 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:45.400 are seeing in a place outside of your own head. Yeah, 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:47.760 but I've experienced this sort of thing before. Yeah, I 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:51.840 mean you can. You can also in addition to moving this, uh, 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:55.880 this sort of imagined spot of consciousness, besides moving it 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:58.080 around in the skull, and outside of the skull, there's 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:00.240 also the ability to move it down your spot mine, 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:03.040 into your heart, into your belly, uh, and then again 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:05.920 moving it outside of the body. Yeah. And now, of course, 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:08.840 seeing isn't the only mental activity that we have conscious 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:13.120 awareness of, so you could try similar experiments with perceptive 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:16.679 activities other than just the imagination of the mind's eye. 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:18.880 You could try to move the part of you that 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:23.880 perceives sounds, or you could try to move your internal monologue. 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:27.160 So we're talking about meditative states here, really, and it's 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:29.800 important to note that there are multiple forms of meditation 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:34.280 and tailing varying methods of closed eye, open eye, visually 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:40.799 aided meditation, audibly aided meditation, walking meditation, yoga meditation, etcetera. 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:43.400 And in terms of imagining, we're gonna get into some 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:47.279 of the different views that have existed throughout time about 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:49.960 different places in the body that consciousness is centered. But 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:52.640 also it's worth noting that out of body states factor 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:55.679 into a number of different faiths and supernatural world views. 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:59.960 There's actually an interesting version of this in scientology that's 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:04.520 called the exteriorization. Oh boy, So the idea here is 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:08.000 that uh, and this is This is right off of 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:11.400 what is scientology dot org the state of the theting 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:15.800 being outside of his body, with or without full perception, 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:18.640 but still able to control and handle the body. When 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:22.520 a person goes exterior, he achieves a a certainty that 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:25.359 he is himself and not in his body. And to 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:30.040 explain that er scientology of theting is essentially the concept 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:32.920 of a soul not to be confused with a body, theting, 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:36.280 which is like a disembodied theting that's lodging in your 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:38.960 body and it's causing physical and mental problems and you 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:42.120 have to exercise it via auditing. Yeah, this sort of 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:45.040 interrogation process, right, Yeah, which we touched on in our 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:47.800 episode on religious technology if you want to go back 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:49.760 and listen to that. But that the idea here is 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:52.600 like this is just one example of a of a 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:58.240 a supernatural mode of viewing the world or or religious 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:02.800 state of mind that in evolves a system of of 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:06.839 imagining the seat of consciousness exiting the body. Yeah. Now, 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:09.920 even if you have some success with this experiment, if 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:12.480 you can do it, if you can move the place 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:16.000 where you're thinking outside your head, we are certainly not 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:18.320 trying to suggest or at least I'm not. I think 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:20.720 you'll be on the same page here, Robert. We're not 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:24.360 trying to suggest that anything is actually moving, or the 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:27.480 thought takes place outside the body, or the existence of 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.960 an immaterial soul or anything like that. I think it's 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:34.839 pretty clear that information processing is performed by the nervous system, 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:38.960 primarily the brain, and your brain isn't leaving your head. 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:43.920 So whatever the organ is in the body that's generating 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:46.919 the experience of consciousness does seem to be stuck in 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:50.760 your skull. But today we wanted to explore this odd 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:54.920 feature of human consciousness that it sometimes feels like it 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:58.480 has the subjective experience of a place of a sort 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:03.839 of self and an identity, even though it's this immaterial concept. 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:07.080 It's an experience we know created by a material brain. 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:11.160 But but why is it that you might be able 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:14.640 to feel like you can move your seat of thought 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:19.800 around two different locations. Um, And if you had, like 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:22.560 if you were living in ancient times and all you 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:26.120 had to go on was your own subjective reflection, where 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:29.760 would you believe your mind was? Yeah, because I believe 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:31.760 we we take it for granted with our with our 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:35.400 modern scientific understanding of the human nervous system and then 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:38.559 the brain. Like most of the time, I don't even 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:42.560 really think about where I'm thinking from, though I do 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:45.360 find myself at times falling into the idea that I'm 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:49.000 if I'm feeling like particular love or warmth, uh, that 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:51.240 this is somehow emanating from my heart, not in a 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:54.880 rational sense, but in kind of a literary romantic sense. 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:57.920 You know, this is a kind of crazy thing to suggest, 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:01.679 but I've sometimes wondered if the idea of the heart 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:07.080 as the seat of emotion and emotional warmthing connection is 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:11.600 something that is derivative from the cultural institution of hugging, 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:15.960 in that when you embrace someone, you bring them into 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:20.280 your torso like your chest area, and you you close 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:24.920 the distance between chests, essentially creating this sense that you're 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:29.840 bringing hearts together. I've I've wondered if it's actually backwards 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:32.760 like that, that, like the hugging leads to the belief 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:35.800 that the heart is the seat of emotional connection, and maybe, 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:38.040 knowing what we know about the brain, that's where we 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:40.480 get these scenes in movies where like two very manly 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:42.719 individuals were like one will grab the other by the 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:44.760 head and they'll kind of like do this slight head 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:47.520 butt in all their foreheads to each other. You know, 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:50.920 they're like having this this manly bond of minds. Oh, 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:53.480 it's not just it's not just men. Forehead hugging is 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:55.599 like a kind of cool thing. I remember there's a 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:58.680 scene in Mad Max Fury Road and there where like 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:01.760 Furiosa and and Max sort of put their heads together 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:04.880 for a minute. It's sweet. Okay, Well, what we'll think 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:08.040 about that is we proceed here. So in terms of 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:12.240 thinking about like how ancient people thought about the seat 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:15.640 of consciousness, we we have to begin with the ancient Egyptians. 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:17.520 And I just to clarify, we're not going to do 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:21.199 an exhaustive study of of ancient cultures and how they 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:24.880 thought about the mind. But but we're gonna go through 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:27.840 a few just quick examples. Well, the ancient Egyptians are 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:30.080 a good one to feature because they had lots of 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:32.720 thoughts on the mind. Oh yes, and the and ultimately 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:34.840 the soul. For for them, the human soul wasn't so 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:38.040 much a single entity but a composite. So you had 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.000 you had to bob the human headed bird combined with 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:44.360 cod a life force coup the spiritual intelligence, seek them 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:47.760 the power cohibit to the shadow and Wren, which was 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:50.559 your name. Uh and isn't many of you might know 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:54.000 or remember from our episode on the Egyptian Mummy. While 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:57.960 other organs were removed and placed in canopic jars for 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:01.280 use in the afterlife, the brain was removed and discarded. 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:04.680 Only the heart was left in the body, as this 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:08.160 was the seat of the mind. Uh. And in this 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:12.120 they were cardiocentrics. The heart is the center that and 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:14.720 and they also believe that the heart would be eventually 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:17.360 be weighed on a scale against the head dress of 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:19.800 mock the goddess of truth. Yeah. I love this, this 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:23.040 story about the afterlife where you're a part of your soul, 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:26.640 one of these aspects. Uh, this sort of like heart 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:29.920 mind thing gets weighed on the scale against I think 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:32.360 it's like an image of a feather usually or something. 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:35.679 And if you're you're too heavy, if you're too heavy 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:39.320 with sin or with burdens whatever. The conception they had 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:42.240 was that weighed down this part of your soul, you 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:45.480 get eaten by this hybrid monster that's part hippopotamus and 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:48.800 part crocodile. Isn't that great? I love it? Yeah? Yeah. 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:56.360 Egyptian cosmology is just fabulous. Now let's turn to another ancient, 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:00.440 UH civilization that that did a lot of thinking, not 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:04.160 just about the state of the mind, but just in general. 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:06.840 And that would be, of course, the the ancient Greeks. 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:09.599 The Greeks thought a great deal about the seat of 0:11:09.640 --> 0:11:13.600 consciousness between the sixth century BC and the second century CE. 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:18.280 And we could essentially spend an entire hour discussing the 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:23.120 various models proposed by the great minds in those eight centuries. Uh. 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:25.960 But just to boil it down, I'm gonna refer to 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:30.520 a two thousand seven paper Soul, Mind, Brain, Greek Philosophy 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:35.199 and the Birth of Neuroscience, by authors Crivolto and Rebody, 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:38.400 and they boiled down Greek perceptions of the brain to 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:41.600 the following. So under our Camion and the fifth century 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:45.440 b C, there's this idea that that the brain is 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:49.400 the seat of sensation and understanding. And then under Hippocrates 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:53.480 around four b C, the mind is the interpreter of things. 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:55.599 The brain is the interpreter of things, the messenger of 0:11:55.679 --> 0:12:00.880 understanding um. And then under Plato three forty seven b C. 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:05.240 The brain is the seat of the rational soul. Under Aristotle, 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:09.840 three four through two B c E. The brain is 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:17.240 the cooling agent of body heat. Okay, under Herophilus through 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:20.040 two A d b c it commands the center of 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:25.800 the body. And under Galen about nine to two uh 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:31.880 fifteen c E it's uh the seat of hegemonicon. And 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:33.960 this is the this is the idea that that So 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:38.040 the brain is the hedgemonicon, the ruling principle of the body, 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:43.080 the regent or hedgemonica. I know it needs to That's 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:47.080 that's the band name right there for sure. So we're 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:54.040 talking Galen or Galen of Pergammon again sixteen his lifespan. 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.720 Central to his interpretation of the human nervous system is 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:01.560 this idea of the hegemonicon. Now, the term itself was Stoic, 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:05.960 but Galen firmly believed in the brain central role, which 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:10.520 was in sharp contrast to the stoics largely cardiocentric views. 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:13.640 So the Stoic philosophers would be more like the Egyptians 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:16.839 that saw the heart has played some role in empowering 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:20.040 the mind and thought, yeah, they believe that the heart 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:23.480 that's where you found the human soul, the intellect, uh, 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:27.680 and in the the numa around the heart, and in 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:31.880 this the micro world reflects the macro world. So they believe, 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:35.040 you know, here's here's the heart as the sun of 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:37.800 human life. And thus it was regarded as as the 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:41.760 seat of the logos, the universal intelligence. And they offered 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:44.760 various bits of rhetorical argument and support this, as well 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:47.720 as the argument that the voice clearly rises from the 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:51.200 heart via the throat. Oh that's kind of interesting. Yeah, so, 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:53.960 but Galen was not having it. You know, with lots 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:58.360 of ideas like that, I'm always like they're funny in retrospect, 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:01.319 but it must have seemed incre doubly clever at the time. 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:05.280 So yeah, obviously you think with something down in your 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:08.600 chest instead of in your brain. Otherwise, why would speech 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:11.280 come from down there If it's coming from the part 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:13.400 of you that's thinking, it has a It would be 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:16.319 very circuitous for information to be going from the head 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:20.480 down there and then coming out of speech. Yeah, understanding 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:22.360 what they knew and did not know at the time, 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:25.960 it has a certain truthiness to it. Right. So again 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:28.920 Galen was was not having any of this, and uh, 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:32.400 and he may have engaged in the first experiment to 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:36.400 to to produce evidence that the brain controls behavior and thought. 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:40.800 So he offered up a rigorous and objective anatomical demonstrations, 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:43.640 such as such as noting the disappearance of voice in 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:48.360 a pig after an incision of the inferior laryngeal nerves. 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:51.400 And he also stressed that the heart produced neither sensation 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:56.360 nor modification of consciousness when touched. So he was he 0:14:56.440 --> 0:14:58.920 was all about, let's get down though I would think 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:02.640 it would produce some kind of effect when touched. But 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:05.760 but the take home here is that Galen will listen 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:07.400 to these ideas, and he said, well, let's put them 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:11.640 to the test. Let's actually conduct experiments and uh and 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:14.360 and see if if there's any truth to this idea 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:17.440 that the heart is uh is the seat of consciousness. 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:20.480 And he concluded that it was not. Now one thing 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:23.320 that we could look at and separate. Here is is 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:26.600 back to the classical hard problem of consciousness, the one 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:28.880 you're going to encounter every time, which is that, like 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:31.800 if you're doing experiments on animals or something like that, 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:34.640 you can never get inside the animal and really know 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:38.000 whether you're affecting its consciousness or not. You can just 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:41.880 look at its behavior. Um, you can even really say 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:44.880 that ultimately you'd have the same problem with other human beings, 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:47.880 except human beings can at least tell you they can 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:52.280 claim to experience consciousness or not. Um But yeah, so 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:55.680 we are dealing with these sort of related but different concepts. 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:59.120 On one hand, there is activity of the nervous system, 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:03.640 as in the central command of the body that produces behavior, 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:07.800 and then the other thing is the subjective experience of being. 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:12.160 We assume those things are linked because when you know, 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:16.080 we can think about our behavior and that experience is subjective. 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:20.080 But but yeah, you could imagine that maybe animals are 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:24.000 behaving as automata. They have behavior and even apparently some 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:27.360 kind of information processing thought, but it doesn't feel like 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.560 anything to be them. So I guess those are concepts 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:34.120 to to sort of keep separate in the mind. But 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:37.600 throughout the history of investigating the seat of consciousness, we're 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:41.120 always going back into blurring them, aren't we. You sort 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:43.560 of can't help but do it. Yeah, And now I 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:46.080 like that you mentioned the objective and the subjective here, 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:49.320 because to get back to this idea that most of 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:52.960 us don't have any problem thinking about, the brain is 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:56.240 the seat of the mind. In this the subjective and 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:59.000 the objective tend to line up for most people, Like 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:02.560 I haven't seen a cardiocentric argument made by even the 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:07.199 most like the the most out there fundamentalist adherent to 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:09.800 a faith. You know, I can't think of an example 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:13.040 off hand where someone's saying, look, dinosaurs are fake. The 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:16.720 world is three years old, and you think with your heart. Man, Like, 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:21.440 nobody's making that argument. So we're kind of lucky too, 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:25.080 if you will to to to largely live in a 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:28.280 world where the subjective and the objective line up. Yeah, 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:34.119 And I mean, to another extent, I kind of wonder, um, 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:36.880 how to put this, Like I sort of wonder how 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:40.360 you could think your mind was powered by your heart. Now, 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:42.720 I know that's just my chauvinism as a as a 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.680 you know, brain centric thinker, knowing what I know and 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:48.320 having the cultural beliefs that I do. But I also 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:52.240 have thoughts like, um, a strong blow to the head 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:56.439 does seem to temporarily impair your consciousness to some extent, 0:17:56.520 --> 0:18:01.720 Like you lose lucidity, you're sort of harshly removed from 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:05.520 the world and you're thinking. Even your subjective experience of 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:08.600 thinking seems to kind of slow down and grind its 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:11.399 gears a little bit. This doesn't really seem to happen 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:13.760 when somebody hits you in the body, or at least 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:16.040 not to the same extent. Or I don't know, maybe 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:19.840 you wouldn't agree, but just that kind of thing alone 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:22.600 would seem to suggest that people should get the idea 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:27.080 the thinking and the subjective experience of being has something 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:29.200 to do with what's in the skull. Well, certainly a 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:32.000 sort of a heart. Well, we'll stop you. Well, that's 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:34.199 certainly true. Yeah, And and in pro wrestling you have 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:36.920 the heart punch, which for a while and many territories 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:40.040 was banned because you would you would you'd like you 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:43.480 take the individual's arm and like folded behind them, thus 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:46.679 exposing that the ribbed area, and then there would be 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:50.000 like a very calculated punch to the heart and you 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:53.040 would just go out like a light. So maybe, uh, 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:57.439 you know, I wouldn't put cardiocyentracism, uh you know, you know, 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:00.360 out of the framework of professional wrestle, and in case 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:04.680 if it seems like it could work in the context, Well, 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:07.280 but I mean, do you do you generally agree or 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:12.240 not that, like the something does feel very natural about 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:15.520 thinking about thinking being in the head. Yeah, I largely 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:18.760 agree because I can. It's it's hard to imagine a 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:22.280 situation where you have have you know, not only intellectuals, 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:26.919 but like working people and soldiers engaging in activities that 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:31.119 would result in a in in cranial injuries that they 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:35.480 wouldn't you know, be privy to this connection, right, But 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:38.200 then again, I guess maybe in defense of the idea, 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:41.439 maybe you could think about it more like it's just 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:45.280 an injury to things like the eyes and stuff like that. 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:48.840 You know, if we were primarily visually oriented in the world, 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:50.840 if you if you hit the part of my body 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.240 that has the eyes on it, maybe you could explain 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:57.239 a loss of lucidity through that somehow. Now, this this 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:00.320 leads to our next example. We're gonna We're gonna roll 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:05.480 through here, uh, a spiritual supernatural idea, and that is 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:09.119 of the seven chakras. Now, this is something I feel 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:11.160 a little embarrassed that I think I should know about. 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:13.760 I've always heard of chakras, but I really know almost 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:17.680 nothing about them. So give me the the beginner's crash course, Robert. 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:19.879 What what's the deal with the chakras? I know there 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:23.920 are multiple chakras in the body, Yeah. Then this is 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:25.800 another one of those topics that if we wanted to, 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:28.960 we could explore just had nauseam. Uh. It shows up 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:32.040 in Hinduism, Johnism, Buddhism, and of course your your local 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:37.800 neighborhood yoga studio and uh or your local neighborhood tool 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:41.280 album cover. Yeah. Yeah, the work of Alex Great It 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:45.120 features into a lot of New Age belief systems as well. 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:48.320 And uh. And this is something I've always I've always 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:52.320 been fascinated by the metaphysics of chakras. They're various artistic 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:55.960 representations and uh. And when I adjust to the my 0:20:56.040 --> 0:21:01.080 own perceptive lenses to the worldview and of these these models, 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:03.280 I can certainly say that I believe in them and 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:06.480 find the model useful for meditation in yoga, like when 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:09.040 you put on the spiritual glasses. This makes good sense 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:10.960 to Yeah, when I check and do a yoga class, 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:13.960 I can engage in this this model of thinking. So 0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:17.920 chakras or wheels in Sanskrit, are concepts of the subtle 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:20.960 spiritual body. The idea that you have energy points position 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:23.199 down the body, from the top of your skull to 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:27.320 the base of your spine roots roots chakra to crown chakra, 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:32.000 so it would go root, sacred naval heart, your third eye, 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:35.159 and then the crown. Whoa, Now, so these all go 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:37.280 up sort of the center of your body, right, Like 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:41.080 there's a line going up your spine from in the middle, 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:44.440 from sort of from your butt to your forehead. Yes, 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:46.600 and and I've seen it argue that that animals with 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:49.320 tails would have more chakras, but maybe that's one of 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:51.280 their more you know, their chill. That's when we turn 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:53.760 to our pets for a little slices in My pet 0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:57.320 is not chill. Oh yeah, well not always okay, but 0:21:57.400 --> 0:22:00.640 sometimes at least he lives in the moment, right, that's true. 0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:02.640 That's the great thing about pets is they are very 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:04.719 much in the moment. They don't care about past or future. 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:10.560 That they don't have too much trouble with losing the self. Well, uh, 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:13.560 with each chakra, each one is tied to different organs, 0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:17.880 different aspects of personality and human behavior. There's a whole 0:22:17.920 --> 0:22:20.400 system built up around this. Uh. The numbers vary, but 0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:23.280 but seven is pretty much the norm. And it's a reverent, 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:26.960 rather different take than the two previous views. The idea 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:29.600 that it's been that consciousness and everything that we are 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:31.800 is based on neither the heart of the mind, because 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:35.240 the energy of being flows through these points, and it 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:38.240 can be focused in certain chakras. So, for instance, there's 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:42.680 an exercise for opening a particular chakra, concentrating it, even 0:22:42.800 --> 0:22:46.639 breathing into or through one's third eye. And this is 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:49.959 an interesting experience because in which I've I've engaged in 0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:53.400 because naturally you know that you're not actually breathing through 0:22:53.400 --> 0:22:56.399 a non existent aperture in your skull. But if you 0:22:56.480 --> 0:22:59.080 close your eyes and you focus on the concept, you 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:01.359 can you can kind of feel it. You can imagine 0:23:01.359 --> 0:23:04.200 yourself as this ball of energy moving up and down 0:23:04.200 --> 0:23:07.040 your body. You can imagine and even feel your center 0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:09.960 of being pooled into different parts of your anatomy. I mean, 0:23:10.640 --> 0:23:12.600 part of me wants to ask, like, why is it 0:23:12.640 --> 0:23:14.280 that we can do that? But that sort of goes 0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:16.439 back to the question we started with at the beginning, 0:23:16.840 --> 0:23:19.960